TRAVELLER Digest 600

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Anomalies with Material Tech in FF&S (and others) by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  2) History of the Imperium Working Group by Canticle <canticle@ARATAR.MB.CA>
  3) Slingshotting for delta-V by Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
  4) Re: 1000 G-turn Limit. by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  5) GG defending by Paajanen Jyrki JYP <jyrki.paajanen@ttgroup.fi>
  6) T-Plates by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  7) Re: Imperial Police by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  8) Wages and Working Hours in the 57th Century by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  9) Re: GG defending by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
 10) Limits on artificial-gravity. by Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
 11) RE: Limits on artificial-gravity. by That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
 12) G-turns & Travel Times by fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
 13) GPS stuff by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
 14) Re: Imperial Police by Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 15) GDW-Beta List Webpage by Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
 16) Re: Hepiar tactics by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
 17) OrbAt and J-drive Coolant by jlockett@hanszen.rice.edu (Joseph L Lockett)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 21:09:33 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Anomalies with Material Tech in FF&S (and others)
Message-ID: <9602160409.AA16655@Rt66.com>

Phil (and others who might not know this),

Cynthia posted some neat stuff on high TL materials for just such a
need.  It is quite complete, and based on the materials tables for
armor, but with the useful figures for things like small arms design.

I'm sure it's in the archives, and I belive it was reposted to the beta
list recently, so I think it'd be in the recent beta archives for sure.

Regards,
Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:50:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Canticle <canticle@ARATAR.MB.CA>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: History of the Imperium Working Group
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960215234906.405A-100000@access.mbnet.mb.ca>

Does anyone have any idea how I could get a hold of this organization?
Either e-mail contact, a PO Box, or even a phone #?

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{}Internet Representative {} Heard you call out my name  {}
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{}Winnipeg, Manitoba     {} Spreading its wings to fly  {}
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Opinions expressed above are mine, and may not reflect those of my employer.
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 21:50:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Slingshotting for delta-V
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.91.960215214159.17390A-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>


In the very interesting ongoing discussion on HEPlaR tactics, David Nelson
suggested doing planetary slingshot passes, a la NASA's probes, to pick up
speed and reach your destination faster.  Alas, it won't work -- the
increased (star-centric) speed you can get from such maneuvers is pretty
tiny.  It makes a big difference if you're trying to get an
almost-no-thrust probe to the outer system over the course of many years;
if you have a drive that can put out many G-hours of thrust, potential
contributions from slingshots get lost in the noise.

Note that this argument only applies to the *speed* component of velocity,
where your goal is "Get from A to C faster by flying past B" -- if your
goal is to change *direction* cheaply, flyby passes can be a big help.
The general rule is that a close flyby sends you away with almost the same
*speed* as you arrived with, but in a very different *direction*.  Read
Larry Niven's novel "Protector" for a lovely description of a "sharp right
turn in deep space" based on this principle.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Berry                      CompuServe cancellation ID: 11089132
cberry@cinenet.net               Don't support Net censorship!
---------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:29:35 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: 1000 G-turn Limit.
Message-ID: <9602160629.AA04209@Rt66.com>

> (2 * 10^-5 /2 * 10^7 * 10^7).  Again, I defer to those with greater
> engineering knowledge, but one gigajoule should tear any ship to bits, no?
>
> I think I'd stick with about 100 g-turns of thrust.  This still allows
> velocities of 10^6 m/s, making the impact energy 10^17 joules.

You'd still have the possibity of very nasty KE weapons, but damage
would limit the speeds you top out at based on armor, etc..  In other
words while you might have 16,667km/s of delta v (1000gturns), you might
only be able to safely go 1000km/s at a time.  It just means you could
go up to that speed, stop, then do it again a few times.  Useful on
patrol, if you think patrols away from worlds would have any utility.
Certainly useful for a Belter though :-)

You're right, though, the energies are huge.  The kind of particles that
routinely pit the shuttle would wreak a scout at the turn-around point
for some of the trips listed in Book 2 of CT.

For the 900Mkm trip, a 0.1gram particle would deliver 187MJ of damage to
the scout.  In BL this'd be a PV of 748...  that's 8 criticals, plus 31
major hits (well, some of the plain hits would go to punching through
armor).

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:57:00 +0000 (GMT)
From: Paajanen Jyrki JYP <jyrki.paajanen@ttgroup.fi>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: GG defending
Message-ID: <312463CB@ttmsm04>


Beacause, as Hans Rancke wrote, no admiral want to separate their navy to
defend whole system, space around GGs and other fuel sources are full of
sensors and automated defense bases. Sensors send their information to MW
which can activate defense bases when enemy fleet is going to refuel. Those
bases could be very small (only a commo receiver and missile battery,
powered by solar panels or something else) and so they could be very hard to
find and destroy. Of course that isn't enough to stop the enemy, but it can
do serious damage.
Those bases are much cheaper than SDBs and many GGs has ring system or moons
which are good hiding places.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:10:07 -0900
From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: T-Plates
Message-ID: <v01530501ad494a03b33b@[137.229.100.93]>

T-Plates do not nessasarily violate newtonian physics.

Since early T-Plates require that one be within 100 diameters of the planet
to work, they are obviously using the planet as reaction mass, and using a
field effect to do so; the CoM exists. They do not produce more thrust
energy than they take (although they are close), thus there is some entropy
in the system, and CoE holds.

Higher tech T-Plates simply have the ability to grab much weaker fields,
and thus use the whole system as reaction mass (in my games, I limited
T-Plates to (TL-10)*1000AU). Again, CoE is touchy, but CoM stays. What's
the effect of a million Td Battleship (15 Million Tons mass) upon a
combined mass of a solar system? Assuming 6G BB, probaly measured in
microns per month.

The newtonian factor exists under the T-Plates; it's just a matter of not
being readily apparent to one under thrust!

Above based upon MT Ref's, MT Ency., MT:SSOMv1


-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:          ANWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
HomePage:       http://orion.alaska.edu/~aswfh/index.html



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 20:08 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Imperial Police
Message-ID: <m0tnKHm-0002lwC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

I agree that Traveller needs an Imperial Police force of some kind. But it's a
tricky beast to nail down. I've been working on this for my own campaign for a
couple of weeks now, and was just about to ask the same question in this forum.

To date, I'm aware of Military "Intelligence" organisations like Navel
Intelligence and the Covert Survey Bureau (CSB) of the Scout Service ( similar
to the CIA ), but I haven't found any serious material on the less military
aspect of Imperial enforcement.

Here are the results of my research and deliberations to date :

The imperium is not interested in Local crimes of any kind. They only become
interested ( let alone involved ) once a crime ( or criminal ) goes
extra-territorial ( ie: leaves the system where the crime was committed ). In
this way, the police organisation we're talking about resembles the american
FBI.

According to the JTAS #14 article "High Justice" by Terry McInnes, the Imperium
is primarily concerned with crimes ( actual or potential ) against the Imperium
itself.

It splits crimes into three categories :
1. Low justice - planetary or local authority
2. Middle Justice - subsector level - "intended to protect helpless societies on
low tech worlds and to protect all societies from excessive damage from military
actions" (Hmm. Perhaps not the best definition methinks. SJM ). Enforced by
police and the military forces of the subsector duke ( backed up by Imperial
forces if required ).
3. "The High Justice of the Imperium, intended to prevent revolt against
Imperial authority, to keep the peace amoung member worlds, subsectors, and
sectors. High Justice is enforced by the Imperial Navy, Army, and Marines, often
assisted by the Security Branch of the Operations Office of the IISS."

And so the discussion begins.

I personally don't think the Navy, et al are going to be concerned with tracking
down sabotours, subversives, and rebels. Sure they're going to be the instrument
of choice when it comes to bringing rebel planets into line, but not when you're
talking about individuals ( or even organisations ) rather than entire
geographic areas. Besides, Naval Intelligence will have its hands full tracking
ship movements, supplies, and enemy agents scouting out resupply bases for the
next frontier war.

And the Scout Service is more likely to be spending its budget spying on the
Zhodani, Vargr, and other EXternal threats than wasting its time looking for
"reds under the bed" so to speak. In other words, I believe that the Scouts are
a externally directed organisation, and their intelligence arm would be more
interested in predicting invasions than internal rebellions ( although there's
bound to be co-operation [well ok, maybe !] if they come across a rebellion in
embryo at a fuel stop somewhere.

So, mirroring the relationship between the CIA and the FBI, there would need to
be an Internal Intelligence organisation to keep an eye inwards towards the
existing Imperium.

The artical continues :
"Crimes normally subject to subsector justice include the unlawful introduction
of high technology to low tech worlds, the violoation of a planetary
interdiction, posession and/or use of nuclear, checmical, or biological weapons,
and war crimes as defined in the Imperial rules of War".

( Speaking of which - does anyone have a copy of the IROW ? )

In other words, anything that can be detected or prosecuted by normal system
defence vessels or subsector forces in pursuit of the regular duties. This seems
fair to me. The Imperium seems happy to leave as much in the hands of local
authorities as it can ( which leaves the real juicy stuff for the Imperial
Police ).

The artical continues :
"The prosecutors and high courts of the Imperium concern themselves with crimes
that would affect worlds in more than one subsector of the realm..." where there
would be juridictional problems if it were not handled by a higher power. "These
include the capture, transportation, and posession of slaves, piracy, the murder
of Imperial officers, officials, or members of the Imperial nobility, theft of
Imperial property, treason, and conspiracy to commit treason against the
Imperium (Note that treason against a planetary government is a local crime)."

I suspect that there are a lot more activities that would interest an Imperial
body, and which would not be defined as "crimes" as such. These would include
political machinations, and tracking shifting aliances ( ie: spotting potential
trouble before it becomes a fully fledged rebel movement ). It would also
include covert tracking of suspicious shipping and/or persons.


My suggestion is that we adopt somthing like the following structure :


  Imperial Bureau of Internal Security  ( IBIS )
    => The parent organisation.
       Departments :
         - Imperial Security Service ( ISS )
             => like the SIS - charged with protecting the imperial family.
         - Criminal Intelligence Office ( CIO )
             => like the FBI - investigates crimes and threats
         - Special Patrol Group ( SPG )
             => Cross between the Texas Rangers and 007. See below.

( I'm using the term SIS here to mean the Security organisation that protects
the American president and members of the government - as seen in "In the Line
of Fire". If I've used the wrong name, I apologise )

The parent organisation (IBIS) would be responsible for co-ordinating the
internal departments, and sifting the external intelligence and signals traffic
collected by the Navy (NI) and Scouts (CSB).

The Imperial Security Service ( ISS ) would provide security details for the
Imperial nobility and close protection for the Imperial Family ( in addition to
the elite Imperial Troopers who are better suited for handling worst case
situations ). They would receive intelligence from CIO and SPG routed through
IBIS.

The Criminal Intelligence Office ( CIO ) would be responsible for all open
investigations, and its paramilitary arm ( like the FBIs Quantico Hostage Rescue
Team ) would be available to resolve the outcomes of investigations or
situations, or to apprehend dangerous criminals. The CIO would effectively be
the investigative arm ( and possibly the strong arm ) of the Imperial High
Court.

The Special Patrol Group ( SPG ) would be the most interesting department for
players characters to be involved in. In the first place their role would be
largely covert. Agents would work totally undercover most of the time as
traders, or other spacefaring personnel. Their job would be to ply the
spacelanes keeping their eyes and ears open for rumours of trouble, and to go
where no badge-wielding official could expect to go ( and live ). They would
usually pass information on to the CIO for action once enough evidence was
accumulated. In this way they would be like the Texas Rangers : Agents at Large,
dealing with crimes and situations as they came across them. However, this would
require another departure from the norm because of the huge communication delays
imposed by the Traveller universe. The "Specials" would have to be licensed to
kill ( like 007 ). Assuming that they were liable for account to their superiors
for their actions, and that they were trained to a very high standard, it would
be logical ( perhaps - I expect a few arguments on this one ) to allow them the
lattitude to deal immediately with threats to the Imperium ( where appropriate,
and where "taking them in" wasn't an option ). This means that Special Agents at
Large ( SALs/ SAALs ) would be very interesting player characters, and fairly
powerful ones in any universe. To protect their anonimity they'd avoid
confrontation where-ever possible ( well, as NPCs anyway - can you imagine a
party of players avoiding confronation <g> ) and let the appropriate authorities
handle whatever situations they'd discovered, but when the the s..t hit the fan,
they'd be empowered to do whatever it took to bring the situation back under
control ( Imperial control, that is ).


Simon J Mahony.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:37:27 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Wages and Working Hours in the 57th Century
Message-ID: <199602160837.TAA29345@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

Something else I've been considering (in relation to the ridiculously over-
priced vehicles in all versions of Traveller, amongst other things) - what
are wages and working hours like on a High Tech world (TL14/15, but even at
TLs from 10-12+)?

Look at what has happened in the last hundred years (what, two or three TLs?) -
we have gone from (industry/mining) a 70+ hour week to a 50 hour week, a 48
hour week and, at present (in Oz) a 35-40 hour week. Consider why this has
happened/been possible - mechanisation has made individual workers vastly more
productive and it has been possible to increase standards of living through
application of this in private lives as well as reduce working hours. There
is every reason to believe that this sort of trend will continue - certainly,
Traveller assumes that computers become more "effective" (at least at
controlling Starships) and that they are an integral part of life in the 57th
century ... otherwise how could even *they* believe that Virus would work
(ignoring the other problems with Virus).

So, how long is a work week/day in the 57th century? Considering the current
rate of decrease, where it has halved over around 3-4 TLs, we can reasonably
assume that it would halve, and halve again, from TL8 to TL15 ... if not more!
So, we have a 9 hour work week ... perhaps three 3 hour days and a 4 day
weekend? Probably much less than this given the improvement in communications
that cut out travelling time for workers who can telecommute from home.

This raises interesting problems for Traveller Starships as they have been
described to date ... or for their crews, at least. They are vastly overworked
and vastly underpaid! Most of the smaller vessels - Scout/Couriers, Far/Fat
Traders and the like - have crews that could not man them at TL15 work hours!
Of course, they are produced at lower than TL15, so, perhaps, that explains
it ... but, of course, TNE has changed all that by increasing their base TL
(the Scout/Courier now has TL/15 rather than TL/6 computers, for example).

Even if they are not overworked, their pay must be below the poverty line.
Consider: the best savings result possible with TNE for a character from a
High Stellar TL world is 5000 Cr per 4 year term ... 1250 Cr per term. Now,
assuming that they are able to save 20% of their salary (a pretty reasonable
figure), this seems to indicate that they have a salary of 6250 Cr per year.
Now, given that 1 Cr seems to be worth around 1-2 US$, and given the costs of
equipment listed in Traveller's various versions, this means they *are* living
beneath the poverty line! It has some interesting implications for either the
cost of gear *or* the amount of savings a character should be allowed to
accumulate in character creation ... or both!

Also, if you think about what I am suggesting, it makes the almost requirement
that Hi-Tech Hi-Pop worlds are the guts of the Imperium (as per the Rebellion
in MTrav) somewhat dubious. There is considerable evidence to suggest that
increased standards of living (regardless of religious factors here) lead to
smaller family sizes ... and this seems no less likely to apply to the future.
Then, on top of this, allowing for the complete roboticisation and
mechanisation of factories in the future, how do you envisage them ... with
hundreds of workers bent over manually operated machine tools? Or one or two
supervising engineers who make sure that the automated, self-repairing and
maintaining production lines don't manage to stuff up in a way that no-one
had anticipated ... and even *they* are probably just supervising computers
who do most of the actual error checking! So what are the rest of the people
doing? They must be in service industries ... and even there automation and
computerisation would reduce the numbers required, so working hours would
be reduced *and* the number of workers would be small.

So, there seems to be no direct connection between the size of the population
and the high-tech rating of a world. Given that it seems likely that such
worlds would have industries that would be quickly reconfigurable (its all
computer controlled and probably with multi-purpose factories rather than
specialised ones anyway) for any demands that might be put on them ... and
they probably have a *very* considerable export trade to worlds of lower tech
levels (all effectively automated). This should mean that prices of goods on
such worlds should be low and/or wages should be high - which isn't the case!

What would all these people do outside of their 9 working hours per week? Well,
a whole rethink of leisure would obviously have been important in such
societies, and leisure activities would be very important ... sports, hobbies,
artistic and craft pursuits etc. would be (presumably) *very* big! Also, we
can assume that, for some people, education and study would be important ...
and would boost their technology further as there seems to be evidence that
suggests that the number of people involved in such pursuits as a percentage
of the overall population is an important influence on the speed of such
change.

All in all, 57th Century cities provide much food for thought!

Phil McGregor

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 02:41:24 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GG defending
Message-ID: <01I19JTMIT6O95U6AR@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 16-FEB-1996 00:02:53.08
To:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:
Subj:GG defending

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 01:55:33 -0500
From: Paajanen Jyrki JYP <jyrki.paajanen@ttgroup.fi>
Subject: GG defending
Sender: traveller@MPGN.COM

Beacause, as Hans Rancke wrote, no admiral want to separate their navy to
defend whole system, space around GGs and other fuel sources are full of
.......................................................................
find and destroy. Of course that isn't enough to stop the enemy, but it can
do serious damage.
Those bases are much cheaper than SDBs and many GGs has ring system or moons
which are good hiding places.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Unfortunately, one of the first things, I can remember reading about this
was the TNS extracts in the FFW game. The first thing the Regina SDB's did
,when news of the Zhodani at Ruie arrived, was to boost at max G for the
system GG. Unless they were insane, it seems that it was standard procedure
to not only jump in w/o enough fuel to leave but also to proceed forthwith
to the local GG. So standard in fact that *all* the SDB's (six, I believe)
went to the GG! Now there *were* TankRons avail. in the FFW game & they came
in handy for fast moves, but were limited in numbers. I've never quite been
able to reconcile these "standard tactics" so I've just had to assume that
there must be some other factor/s, that've never come to light, that would
explain this.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:04:27 GMT
From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Limits on artificial-gravity.
Message-ID: <17114.9602161304@pcdev7.delcam.com>

I'm trying to find out how accuratly the artificial gravity on a ship
can be controlled.  To be able to roll the ship, and still give the
appearance of a shared downwards direction, this would appear to be a
quite fine definition of scaling.  There are also mentions in various
publications of being able to change the gravity on a room by room
basis.

My question is, over how small an area can the ships gravity be
controlled?  Could it be used to lift a hijacker off his feet and hold
him there?  Could it be used to do the washing-up for you?

This does leave some questions as to why hyjacking is a problem if you
can just throw them down a side corridor at 6g...

Chris.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:04:01 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Limits on artificial-gravity.
Message-ID: <199602161504.KAA23934@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08: 58:22 EST
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:04:00 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: I'm trying to find out how accuratly the artificial gravity on a ship
: can be controlled.  To be able to roll the ship, and still give the
: appearance of a shared downwards direction, this would appear to be a
: quite fine definition of scaling.  There are also mentions in various
: publications of being able to change the gravity on a room by room
: basis.

If I recall, it's something like .5G to 1.5/2G.  It's enough to keep
most races happy by giving the feel of their homeworld's gravity.

: My question is, over how small an area can the ships gravity be
: controlled?  Could it be used to lift a hijacker off his feet and hold
: him there?  Could it be used to do the washing-up for you?

I think that this is on a room by room basis.  I always assumed that
it was localized based on area.  You know, the entire bridge, a
section of hallway, a room.  Anything that could be partitioned off
from another area.

: This does leave some questions as to why hyjacking is a problem if you
: can just throw them down a side corridor at 6g...

Well, first of all, I don't think it could proved 6Gs.  However, you
could always grav bounce someone.  You know, turn the grav on and off
and bounce them off the walls of a corridor.  That's how Virus offed
lots of crews.  But once a highjacker has a gravbelt on, well that
doesn't work too well.  Also, most highjackers (at least the pros)
would  probably disable the system ahead of time.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:25:33 -0600
From: fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: G-turns & Travel Times
Message-ID: <199602161525.JAA01010@osh1.datasync.com>

I have two questions.

1)  If the distance from orbit 19 to orbit 1 is 19,608,260.0 lightseconds (using
    4D6 = 10), then  if you burn 50 G-hours (100 G-turns More than most traders
    carry), then would your travel time be 54,903,128.0 minutes (915,052.0
hours;
    38,127.0 days; 104 years)????  Are these calculations correct (the rules
    aren't clear to my feeble brain:))  Are these numbers less than, more than,
    or same as reality??  These types of time frames seem that they would
severly
    alter the history of Traveller.  (I know this is a major discussion here,
    forgive me that I have just noticed the ludicracy of the rules.)

2)  I'm having trouble with the reaction mass computations.  When creating a
starships I thought reaction mass was:

                Thrust MW x 0.25  = cubic meter per G-hour.

The vessels in the book seem to have a value computed by:

                (Thrust MW/Maneuver G's) x 0.25 = cubic meters per G-hour.

Was there an update that I missed, or am I looking at the numbers wrong?

P.S. - On a related note, what is the maneuver G number for anyway.  I know
it relates to internal structure and to Thrust MW, but how do these
interact.  If I have a ship with Maneuver Performance of 9G's (can I do
this??) can I spend more than 9 G-turns (or 9 G-hours).  Please HELP!!!!


Paul  {tiger}

"54-40 or fight!!"  - TBWSK

PS - I'm still looking for a playing group in South Mississippi.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:45:22 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: GPS stuff
Message-ID: <5682515F4C@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

Regarding the entire GPS discussion, I refer everyone to the recent
(January or February) issue of Scientific American.  There is an
article regarding using the GPS system for very accurate measurements
(sub-mm), even <with> lower resolution civilian recievers. The DOD
truly let the genie out of the bottle with this one...they would get
lynched if they tried to shut it down now.

What they can do is go to their own satellites, but they'll still
have a really hard time shutting down the civilian version...a hell
of a lot of traffic depends on GPS's now...imagine the outcry if a
barge full of fuel oil wiped out a bridge along the Mississippi river
during some crisis because they'd had to fall back to the old ways of
navigating, which, since they now use GPS for mostly, will be rusty
at.

This brings me to another point...the universe has changed
significantly in the 100 or so years since the last Imperial Survey;
one of the RC handbooks mentions that interstellar navigation is a
bit more tricky because everything has shifted somewhat.  This should
definitely increase the chances of a misjump to within 100 diameters,
or also jumping so far out that you run out of fuel getting to the GG
to refuel.

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:06:01 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Imperial Police
Message-ID: <199602162106.PAA11604@boris.itlabs.umn.edu>

Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> wrote:

>I wonder whether an Imperal Police organization (like InterPol) exists in
>the Imperium. If yes, what kind of crime they investigate in? What's their
>structure? If no, why not and would it be desirable to have such organization?

Yes.  There are two major ones we know about, the Imperial Ministry of
Justice (MoJ) and the IISS Security Branch (part of the Operations
Office).

The MoJ is a primarily investigative body with fairly restricted powers
that looks into possible violations of the Imperial High Laws.  Normally,
their Special Investigators work with planetary law enforcement to assist
the locals investigate crimes.  For example, murder is a violation of an
Imperial High Law, but under most circumstances the MoJ would not directly
involve themselves but let local jurisdictions handle the matter.  I tend
to think of their investigators as similar to the US FBI, with additional
jobs which in the US are handled by the Department of Justice -- such as
matters in which the Imperial government needs legal representation and
advice, and the administration of the Imperial prison system.  Of course,
each would be handled by different offices inside the Ministry.  These
are the folks that deal with matters like trade in illegal commodities,
possession of nuclear and biological weapons, terrorism, and so on.

We know it's run by a Minister of Justice, because one of them, Porfiria,
was chosen by lot by the government to assassinate Cleon the Mad and take
his place as emperor.  The job probably includes a ducal rank noble title
with it due to its' importance in the bureaucracy.

The IISS-SB has "the widest powers of any Imperial law enforcement agency",
according the the old JTAS article on the Scout Service.  This seems a bit
odd at first glance, since the responsibilities mentioned involve protection
of IISS facilities.  However, this means that they have responsibility for
protecting the xboat network and Imperial Courier Service, which both carry
important government data and key personnel, among other things.  They also
are probably the source of personnel for the Imperial Protection Detail that
the IISS supports.  The IPD are plain-clothes agents that are entrusted with
the last line of defense for the Emperor's person and are virtually always
with him.  I think of the IISS-SB as similar to the US Secret Service, but
with IISS-related duties replacing Department of the Treasury duties.  This
still lets them get into a lot of odd corners.  The gauss carbine that I
posted a while back was meant for the IPD in particular.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonn0015@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 16:17:24 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: GDW-Beta List Webpage
Message-ID: <9602162117.AA29548@qrc.com>


I'm pleased to be able to announce that the GDW-Beta List (a rules and
game-mechanics special-interest group) webpage and archives are back online
and better than ever.  The URL is:

        http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/gdw-beta/

The site has online, automatically updated indexes of messages sent to the
list by author, date, and subject.  The threads archive is updated
automatically whenever message traffic is recieved by the list, so it is
always current.

Also on the site are HTML documents presenting rules variants, guides and
explanations, and complete examples of Fire, Fusion, and Steel designs
(including a few Classic Traveller conversions).  More material is being
added to the site as it is hypertexted; we are by no means done!

Guy Garnett, GDW-Beta List administrator
gdw-beta-request@qrc.com
wildstar@qrc.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock


Gaming Home Page: http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/
Artwork Home Page: http://www.io.com/~wildstar/


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:04:12 +0100
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Hepiar tactics
Message-ID: <v02140b00ad4aa89ffd9f@[193.12.250.151]>

>Home Court:  IN CT SDBs had the ability to go into the "outer system" and h
>ide for an attacker.  Then the SDBs could act as a restancesforce, snipping at
>the enemy.  With Hepiar truster the defender can still do this, all he has to d
>o is set up a number of hidden fuel cashes into system.  This supply of fuel
>would allow an SDB force to be a pain for the attacker fo exteded periods.

>sling-shotting around a planet to pick up Delta-V.  It work for NASA and would
>most likely improve ship travel times a great deal.

Whenever the sneaking SDBs use their HEPLARs they would be visible on PEMS
a LOOONG way. When not thrusting they simply follow Newton/Einstein paths
and are easily tracked. If contragrav only negates gravity and does it at
all ranges (which FF&S say they don't) they could fiddle with those on or
off and confuse the tracker greatly.

Finally about slingshots; it works for NASA because they have such
inefficient engines. Chemical rockets at TL 7-8 is definately below
baseline. NASA interplanetary flights are Hohmann orbits modified by
gravassist while CT and TNE ships travel along more or less straight lines
at vastly higher speeds.

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:39:28 -0600 (CST)
From: jlockett@hanszen.rice.edu (Joseph L Lockett)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: OrbAt and J-drive Coolant
Message-ID: <199602170039.SAA02062@harry-clay.hanszen.rice.edu>

A couple of diverse answers here:

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> asked:
> Could someone please fill me in on the meaning of the following terms?
> Orbat

I believe that's "OrbAt," "orbital artillery," also called "ortillery" in
some later supplements.  Forces used exclusively for planetary bombardment.

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com> wrote:
>         My understanding (from where, I can't say at the moment) is that
> part of the hydrogen was actually used for _cooling_ not power production.

I noticed this in the two Traveller novels GDW produced (I bought mine
right after news of their demise).  I'd always been under the impression,
from Classic and MT sources, that the crew was essentially idle once the
ship had entered jump space.  Paul Brunette (sp?), though, has depicted
jump as the engineer's nightmare duty station, carefully monitoring power
flow to the drive and ensuring adequate LHyd coolant.

While it's nice to have something to DO in jump-space, which is perhaps
Brunette's intent, I'm not sure I like the idea.  LHyd is cold stuff,
and the idea that it all gets tossed overboard (into what?  the jump field?)
after use rather strains my suspension of disbelief.  Though I rather like
his idea of jump discharges... nice atmosphere!

-----------------------------*-------------------------*-----------------------
   Joseph "Chepe" Lockett    | "Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
 jlockett@hanszen.rice.edu   |  sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett/ |  fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.
-----------------------------*-------------------------*-----------------------


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 600
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 601

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) New Abilities? by ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
  2) Re: Hepiar tactics by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
  3) Re: Imperial Police by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
  4) Interstellar Cops by peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
  5) Re: Contra Gravity and Landing unstreamlined ships by fibbert@golden.net
  6) Re:Speed Limits for Ships by prashid@mindspring.com (Princess Simpson)
  7) Re: Working hours in the 57th Century. by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  8) I didn't get Digest 599 by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
  9) Re: Hepiar tactics by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 10) Re: Speed Limits for Ships by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 11) Re: History of the Imperium Working Group by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
 12) Re: OrbAt and J-drive Coolant by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
 13) Re: GPS stuff by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
 14) Misjupms in the New Era by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
 15) Jump Nightmares.... by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
 16) Re: Hepiar tactics by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
 17) Space survival technology... by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 16:49:18 CST
From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: New Abilities?
Message-ID: <199602170052.SAA18508@mailhub.amaranth.com>

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996 02:19:55 -0500 you wrote:

CC>Someone suggested breaking Dex into Agility and Dex.

That would be me. <g>

CC>I agree.

Heavens!  Someone agrees with me on this.  I fully expected to be
alone on this one.

CC> I would also like to see Con broken into Fitness and Con. A
    skin-and-bones marathon runner would have high fitness but
    low con.  My friend bubba would have low fitness (he can't
    run a city block) but a high Con (can he ever take a hit!).

I can agree with you here.

CC> I would also like to see abilities for alertness (perception,
    ability to notice small details/ detect danger, etc.) and
    appearance.  Of course, this is getting to be a lot of
    abilities (10), but other games have this many.

Alertness I'd agree with, but Appearance..I don't know about that
one.  Fold that into charisma?

Now the opposition...

TCG> Hmm. I can think of two reasons why this may not work.
     First, it definitely breaks any type of compatibility
     between old and new characters (at least CT/MT and TNE
     characters were only a point off).

That's true, and it's why I didn't expect anybody else to agree
with me.  <g> I still think there is *too* much difference between
fine motor skills (manual dexterity) and light-footedness,
balance, and body sense (agility) to continue to lump them
together.

TCG> Also, I think that adding more attributes would just make
     the mechanics more cumbersome.

If we add 3, 4, or 5 more...sure!  Adding one or two could be
handled.

TCG> A better solution might be to create a lists of advantages
     and disadvantages.  Yes, this smacks of a GURPSism and I'm
     sorry.

Don't be sorry.  GURPS is a fine system, and I don't mind
stealing from it. <g>

TCG> This will allow effects like this to be achieved on a per
     character basis, but yet doesn't add any more complexity to
     the rules. Some things like task resolution should be simple.

Ok, I'm all for simplicity..especially in task resolution.

TCG> Generic DEX and CON allow this, while breaking it down will
     just allow leeway for the players to bicker that they should
     be able to use the other similar skill.

Players will *always* bicker. <g>  I still don't buy generic DEX,
and maybe not generic CON.

If you want to make it really simple, why don't we just have 2
Abilities?  Body and Mind.  Body is Strength, Dexterity,
Agility, Constitution, and Fitness.  Mind is Intelligence,
Perception, Education, and Will.  Two numbers to deal
with..simple!  No, I'm not really serious. <g>

TS> ...also didn't like the TNE Charisma stat).

I'd have preferred something besides Charisma if an Ability was
going to be added.

TS> Secondly, if we really want to, we could break everything
    down and have 3 dozen stats- like Dangerous Journeys, but we
    don't need to.

No we don't, but adding 1 or 2 isn't 3 dozen.


TS> The UPP stats should just serve as a very loose guideline to
    the character's Endurance, or Dexterity, or whatever as
    measured against some arbitrary Imperium-wide standard.

Yes, but in TNE each of a character's stats is tied to specific
skills.  If you stretch the Attribute across too many Skills
you'll create unrealistic situations...and if you have too many
Attributes, then you create a system too complex to play.

I understand the problems everybody points out.  I still would
like to see a change to specific DEX and AGL attributes.



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:57:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Hepiar tactics
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.960216165355.111316A-100000@homer03.u.washington.
edu>


On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Anders Backman wrote:
>
> Whenever the sneaking SDBs use their HEPLARs they would be visible on PEMS
> a LOOONG way. When not thrusting they simply follow Newton/Einstein paths
> and are easily tracked. If contragrav only negates gravity and does it at
> all ranges (which FF&S say they don't) they could fiddle with those on or
> off and confuse the tracker greatly.

In response to both the CG bit and the Hohlmann interplanetary orbits:
In effect the Hohlmann orbit is designed to "steal" angular velocity from
planets because of conservation of momentum, energy, ad nauseum.  So why
not use the CG lifters in reverse---to _increase_ the mass of the ship
and thus increase the amount of attraction between the bodies?  Anyone
have any ideas about how efficient this would be?

> Finally about slingshots; it works for NASA because they have such
> inefficient engines. Chemical rockets at TL 7-8 is definately below
> baseline. NASA interplanetary flights are Hohmann orbits modified by
> gravassist while CT and TNE ships travel along more or less straight lines
> at vastly higher speeds.
>
> /Backman
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:55:29 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: gherbert@crl.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Police
Message-ID: <199602170155.AA28590@mail.crl.com>


There's some more useful info in the Challenge #50 article on
"Imperial Law", written by yours truly.  It includes the various
levels of imperial crime, etc., as well as some more information
on the structure of the Ministry of Justice.

Is it canon?  I dunno.  They published it 8-)

-george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com"Put down the laser
 cannon and come out
 with your hands up,
 Mr Brice.  We have
 you covered with
 a light cruiser.
 You aren't going
 anywhere."


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 21:56:59 -0500
From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Interstellar Cops
Message-ID: <199602170256.VAA21577@mars.superlink.net>




>I agree that Traveller needs an Imperial Police force of some kind. But it's a
>tricky beast to nail down. I've been working on this for my own campaign for a
>couple of weeks now, and was just about to ask the same question in this
forum.
>

In a campaign that I was running a bunch of years ago I had an entity that
performed law enforcement duties on the behest of the Imperium that was
loosly based upon the IBIS that TSR published in their "Dragon" magazine.

The bunch I created were real bad news to have after you.  I called them
SCIS (Special Criminal and (counter)Intelligence Services).


Some bullet items about these guys.


* All military bases had special sealed orders on compters that were to be
accessed  by the CO of that base when presented with proper credentials by
agents of the SCIS.  These sealed orders were encrypted and could only be
decoded by the use of three keys.  The first key was supplied by the CO, the
second key was supplied by a randomizer device, and the third was supplied
by the agents identity device.  Since the crypto keys were of such value as
to have a 1024 bit size the chance of forging all three was pretty remote.
The randomizer was time based and its value changed every 30 seconds based
on time elapsed since an arbitrary point in time. I digress.

These orders could be anything from an order to supply the agent with
transportation to an destination of their choice to a mobilization of troops
under the orders of the agent.


*  Agents recieved their orders via XBOAT.  Special encrypted transmissions
were used to first send out a query to see if an agent of SCIS was in
system.  Agents usually had laptop computers, or used the computer on a ship
that they "owned."   These were used to answer the query and subsequenty
download the orders as well as intelligence updates that were also
diseminated to field operatives.  (Actually, in my schema all intelligence
officers of all branches got the same intelligence data from the same Xboat
delivery as well as their parent organiztation.)   Orders could be of a
nature as to be directed to a operative of choice or could be send to agents
in general to be picked up and acknowleged by the first qualified operative.

*  Agents were usually in deep cover and had the appearance of something
other than the what they were. Often they were under the cover of being
merchant captains, but other professions were used.  The key being they were
usually encountered where a type A or type B starport was located.

*  Reguardless of physical appearance these agents were experts in all sorts
of hand-to-hand combat, armed combat, demolitions and other skills.  Usually
they had at least one skill of a level that would make them a "guru" of a
profession using that skill.  (for instance computers, or electronics, or...)

Players in my campaign were not even aware of the existance of this
organization and nobody guessed at it even when one of their patrons was an
agent of SCIS.  This was the majority way players encountered these folks.

In one case I used a SCIS agent as an "equalizer" for a player character
that had gotten too big for his britches.   I lovely blonde lady turned out
to be a SCIS agent.  She booked passage on the PC's scout ship and when they
arrived in system where  she had  booked passage she arrested him and he was
incarcerated dirtside.



       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]
  _] "Those who fail to learn from histor                           _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 10:10:42 +0000
From: fibbert@golden.net
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Contra Gravity and Landing unstreamlined ships
Message-ID: <199602171511.KAA19083@golden.net>


>How does CG slow descent, In BL p15 states"CG lifters do not provide
>thrust and so cannot physically lift a ship. Instead, they neutralize
>most of the gravitational attraction of a world (approx. 99% of
>Gravitational force. This combined with atmoshere pressure, will
>provide buoyancy in VERY DENSE ATMOSPHERES...

Drop a rock on the Moon,  watch it fall.
Drop a rock on Earth, watch it fall.

The lower gravity on the Moon causes objects to accellerate more
slowly, thus falling slower.  An unstreamlined ship can move through
an atmosphere slowly - and if using CG would reach it's terminal
velocity at a much slower speed.

Terminal velocity occurs because the air pressure acting against a
falling body produces a force of accelleration of 9.8 m/s^2 = the
force of gravity.  If the force of gravity were .098 m/s^2 a much
slower decent velocity would be needed to achieve terminal velocity.

I think the more important question re Streamlined/Unstreamlined is:
Does the thing have landing gear?  Can the ship's hull withstand
storms and wind?  Are there any components (like
antenna/dishes/missle launchers) which are so poorly designed for
atmosphere that it could damage the ship?


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 10:24:49 -0600
From: prashid@mindspring.com (Princess Simpson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:Speed Limits for Ships
Message-ID: <199602171524.KAA04339@borg.mindspring.com>

        Hey all this is really my wifes account but anyway
Given a reaction propelled craft that craft will cease to accelerate when
the exhaust velocity is equal to crafts velocity relative to the nozzles.
Provided there are no other forces acting on it.  iE drag and such.

Maybe you can arbitrarily assign a max exhaust velocity for heplar...say 300
KM/S
You could even calculate this by figuring out the needed momentum transfer
rate to get 1 ton of thrust.  This is the impulse or p-delta t.   Momentum
times time will give a force unit.
You will have to figure out the mass of materiel HEPLAR ejects per/s.
Somebody might want to do this to see what the exhaust velocity is.  It may
be greater than c.



Tariq


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 10:52:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Working hours in the 57th Century.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960217102625.20103A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.

Phil, you made some interesting observations about work habits in the far
future, but some of your assumptions are debateable.  For instance, you
state that work hours have been going down as TL increases.  This
relationship is far from certain.  As we have seen from other discussions
on the list, TL-0 hunter/gatherers only work about 20 hours a week, and
this value (in earth history) has fluctuated wildly independent of TL
ever since.  The 80-hour work week of the 19th century is widely thought
to be a consequence of social factors (religion, class structure, etc.)
rather than technology.

In our own times, work hours have been steadily climbing over the past
decade or so despite (or perhaps because of) computerization.  And the
average 20th century home-maker still spends as much time on his/her task as
19th century homemakers despite all
the technological help he/she recieves.  One reason for this is that as
TL gets higher, standards get higher.  Consider the example of writing a
research paper. Pre-computer and post-computer it takes about the same
amount of time.  The reason is that now papers have to involve more
references (after all, you can them _all_ from a database), and have to
be better laid out.  Also, style is expected to be better since editing
is so easy. Similar sorts of things apply to cleaning houses and other
tasks.

Basically, I don't think you can be so sure of a 9-hour work week.
Social factors will interfere, and there are many sectors where computers
do not reduce work time significantly (e.g., service sectors, creative work,
academic areas).  These areas are likely to grow (as they have been in
recent times) and provide people with more work.  Remember, people
fundamentally want to work (most of them, anyway).  Ask the vast majority
of the unemployed and they will tell you: they're bored!  If computers
start to take work away in certain areas (manufacturing, etc.), people
will go into other areas.

Regarding starship crews, they won't necessarily be paid by the hour, but
by the trip.  Also, they're getting free room and board along with their
pay.  Finally, I recall a Cr being worth closer to 4 dollars.

Happy Travelling,
Charles.

<0> "As more dice are rolled, the empirical approaches the theoretical." <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca),   <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.    <0>
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.    <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html  <0>



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:24:02 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: I didn't get Digest 599
Message-ID: <01BAFDB0.A9E8FD00@ppp031.on.rim.or.jp>

I'm sorry to talk about this in the digest, but I didn't get Traveller
Digest 599 for some reason.  I tried giving a GET command to the listserver,
but since I don't know the path, I got an error.  The HELP GET isn't much
help either.  If the list administrator is reading this, I ask that he
please send me Traveller Digest 599.
Thanks.
Sorry for wasting bandwith with this.


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:25:56 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Hepiar tactics
Message-ID: <9602171825.AA08819@Rt66.com>

> Charles Pratt wrote:
> In response to both the CG bit and the Hohlmann interplanetary orbits:
> In effect the Hohlmann orbit is designed to "steal" angular velocity from
> planets because of conservation of momentum, energy, ad nauseum.  So why
> not use the CG lifters in reverse---to _increase_ the mass of the ship
> and thus increase the amount of attraction between the bodies?  Anyone
> have any ideas about how efficient this would be?

Well, off hand, not at all (er, not measurably).

       G M' R
F = - -----
       r^3

and M'=M+m   R is a unit vector

Right?  The reason for the M' is that r is the distance to the center of
mass between the two.

Well M is the planet (or solar) mass, and m is our ship.  M is gonna be
around 1E24-25 kg for a planet, or like 1E30 kg for our sun.  The m term
will be really, really small,  not worth the effort to keep track of.  If
we let the CG change the mass of the ship as high as an asteroid
(say 1E15 kg) then the addition of the ship is 1E-13 %  for the solar
example, and 1E-7 or 1E-8 % for planets.

So if the planet is a unit mass, then the M' term will be:

M' = 1+0.000000001 (assuming the ship masses as an asteroid with the CG
on the right way)

So the difference between adding mass or not to the ship won't have much
effect.

The bottom line is that the force on the ship isn't really gonna change
a gnat farts worth unless the CG can make the mass comparable to M.

Disclaimer:  please bash my math if I screwed up, I haven't done a
problem like this in, yeesh, several years, and this is off the top of
my head :-)

-Merrick


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:05:02 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Speed Limits for Ships
Message-ID: <9602171905.AA12880@Rt66.com>


> Given a reaction propelled craft that craft will cease to accelerate when
> the exhaust velocity is equal to crafts velocity relative to the nozzles.
> Provided there are no other forces acting on it.  iE drag and such.
>
> Tariq

Um, this isn't true (if it were we never would've gotten to orbit :-).

A (rather idealized) shuttle has an Isp (specific impulse) of around 450
seconds.  The exhaust velocity is around 4.5 km/s.  Low Earth Orbit
(LEO) is about 10km/s.

The Rocket equation relates propellant mass to total spacecraft mass,
and so we can look at this to show my point:

(Mp/Mtot) = 1 - e^-(delta_v)/c   c is the exhaust velocity, delta v is
   final speed.

When the ratio of propellant to total mass is 1, your rocket is _all_
propellant.  If delta_v is 4 times c, then the ship is 98% fuel.

You're right that there's an upper limit on delta_v, but it isn't equal
to the exhaust velocity of the rocket.

I got a c of something like 40,000 for HEPlaR, but I don't remember if
it was m/s or km/s, I'll look it up.  It also didn't have enough energy
inputted (in MW) to cover the KE of the exhaust, so I decided that the
HEPlaR drive had to fuse some of the propellant (making it dirty).

Hmmm, working the above equation backwards, I get about 20,000km/s for
HEPlaR exhaust, so maybe my KE calculation came out to 40,000km/s.

At the very least, BTW, the HEPlaR exhaust is 40km/s---the plasma is 5
times the stated velocity of a plasma gun, even "clean."  Do you want to
be behind the grav bike when it's on?

-Merrick


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:18:32 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: History of the Imperium Working Group
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960217181832.0069a0fc@lynx.csn.net>

At 12:50 am 2/16/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anyone have any idea how I could get a hold of this organization?
>Either e-mail contact, a PO Box, or even a phone #?

        Last I knew, C.BUSH@GENIE.GEIS.COM was a good contact ...
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:18:40 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: OrbAt and J-drive Coolant
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960217181840.0072ef9c@lynx.csn.net>

At 07:35 pm 2/16/96 -0500, Joseph "Chepe" Lockett wrote:
>jump as the engineer's nightmare duty station, carefully monitoring power
>flow to the drive and ensuring adequate LHyd coolant.
>
>While it's nice to have something to DO in jump-space, which is perhaps
>Brunette's intent, I'm not sure I like the idea.  LHyd is cold stuff,
>and the idea that it all gets tossed overboard (into what?  the jump field?)
>after use rather strains my suspension of disbelief.  Though I rather like
>his idea of jump discharges... nice atmosphere!

        I'd always thought the only cooling necessary was _before_ jump,
when the jump drives are producing incredible amounts of power and feeding
it into the zuchai crystals. Once you've finished that, and actually entered
jumpspace, I always thought engineering was a boring place to be.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:18:38 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GPS stuff
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960217181838.0080a818@lynx.csn.net>

At 11:47 am 2/16/96 -0500, you wrote:
>What they can do is go to their own satellites, but they'll still
>have a really hard time shutting down the civilian version

        Since when is there a civilian version? I was under the impression
the entire constellation was put up and controlled by the DOD.

>...a hell
>of a lot of traffic depends on GPS's now...imagine the outcry if a
>barge full of fuel oil wiped out a bridge along the Mississippi river
>during some crisis because they'd had to fall back to the old ways of
>navigating, which, since they now use GPS for mostly, will be rusty
>at.

        Yep. Somebody made a what might be considered big mistake when they
first started putting these things up. They decided they'd leave the full
accuracy unencrypted until the full constellation was up ... and everybody
in the world realized how useful GPS could be. 'Course, they ignored the DOD
saying it wouldn't be that accurate later, and came to depend on it. Now the
DOD is stuck with a fait accompli.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:49:39 -0900
From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Misjupms in the New Era
Message-ID: <v01530500ad4beee35be6@[137.229.100.55]>

>        This brings me to another point...the universe has changed
>significantly in the 100 or so years since the last Imperial Survey;
>one of the RC handbooks mentions that interstellar navigation is a
>bit more tricky because everything has shifted somewhat.  This should
>definitely increase the chances of a misjump to within 100 diameters,
>or also jumping so far out that you run out of fuel getting to the GG
>to refuel.
>

Too bad that the rules make it nearly impossible for any skilled spacer to
do worse than a relativity error under TNE task system/flowcharts; assumes
they run refined (or FPP Processed) fuel, and jump from 100 diams.

TNE actually made jump travel much safer, even though it didn't change the
task difficulties.

Would a single level of difficulty really be a suitable difference?
Remember, though that this HALVES the chances of a safe jump, and also
allows for genuine misjumps.


-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:          ANWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
HomePage:       http://orion.alaska.edu/~aswfh/index.html



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:58:07 -0900
From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Jump Nightmares....
Message-ID: <v01530501ad4bf0e2d3e2@[137.229.100.51]>

>
>I noticed this in the two Traveller novels GDW produced (I bought mine
>right after news of their demise).  I'd always been under the impression,
>from Classic and MT sources, that the crew was essentially idle once the
>ship had entered jump space.  Paul Brunette (sp?), though, has depicted
>jump as the engineer's nightmare duty station, carefully monitoring power
>flow to the drive and ensuring adequate LHyd coolant.
>
>While it's nice to have something to DO in jump-space, which is perhaps
>Brunette's intent, I'm not sure I like the idea.  LHyd is cold stuff,
>and the idea that it all gets tossed overboard (into what?  the jump field?)
>after use rather strains my suspension of disbelief.  Though I rather like
>his idea of jump discharges... nice atmosphere!
>

Sounds like he lifted it from battletech; it bears no resemblence to cannon
sources. SSOMv1 (StarShip Operators Manual vol 1) clearly states that Jump
Fuel feeds a high speed fusion reactor. Yes, it would be l-hyd cooled, but
it only operates BEFORE the actual transition.

I have noticed a commmon theme of using jump timme for routine maintenance.
THis is what every group of players I have had since maint rules came out
have done.


-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:          ANWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
HomePage:       http://orion.alaska.edu/~aswfh/index.html



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:36:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Hepiar tactics
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.960217133338.53827A-100000@homer18.u.washington.edu>


On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> > Charles Pratt wrote:
> > In response to both the CG bit and the Hohlmann interplanetary orbits:
> > In effect the Hohlmann orbit is designed to "steal" angular velocity from
> > planets because of conservation of momentum, energy, ad nauseum.  So why
> > not use the CG lifters in reverse---to _increase_ the mass of the ship
> > and thus increase the amount of attraction between the bodies?  Anyone
> > have any ideas about how efficient this would be?
>
> Well, off hand, not at all (er, not measurably).
>
>        G M' R
> F = - -----
>        r^3
>
> and M'=M+m   R is a unit vector
>
> Well M is the planet (or solar) mass, and m is our ship.  M is gonna be
> around 1E24-25 kg for a planet, or like 1E30 kg for our sun.  The m term
> will be really, really small,  not worth the effort to keep track of.  If
> we let the CG change the mass of the ship as high as an asteroid
> (say 1E15 kg) then the addition of the ship is 1E-13 %  for the solar
> example, and 1E-7 or 1E-8 % for planets.
>
> So if the planet is a unit mass, then the M' term will be:
>
> M' = 1+0.000000001 (assuming the ship masses as an asteroid with the CG
> on the right way)

But what size ship is being talked about here?  How would this work for
the really HUGE ships in service?  If they could use this system to skimp
on a little gas, they probably would, seeing as how much fuel it takes to
move them anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 16:21:31 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Space survival technology...
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.960217160518.37632C-100000@homer31.u.washington.edu>


I'm trying to figure out how to create a rescue ball, and it's requisite
life support abilities via FFS, and I can't quite get past the concept.

The problem is, for it to truly be useful in as many situations a
possible, it needs to be able to get away from the ship quickly, support
life long enough to be found (a week/two?), and it needs to be able to be
found (transponder---something like modern-day EPIRB devices on ocean
going vessels).  Now, the major problem is making this device small
enough to be stowable in enough numbers to provide for the crew---an
actual subordinate spacecraft would be too large for the smaller ships.
Also, the most of the actual materials would be outside of those covered
in FFS.

So far, I envision a 3-layer "balloon" built around a rigid axis with a
small solid fuel booster on the forward axis of motion.  The outer shell
would most likely be a gold-coated, self-sealing mylar shell, to
decrease radiation.  The second shell would be a flexible material
(remember the whole point is that it can be packed down for storage) of
some sort of ballistic weave (hopefully self-sealing) to guard against
micrometeors.  The inner most shell would be the main heat retention
shell.  Between these would be inert gases of decreasing pressure to
retain heat and further eliminate em radiation penetration.

The main problem is figuring out how to get it away from a ship in
degrading orbit (at least put the rescue ball in a stable orbit), and to
get the ball rapidly away from a ship that's gonna blow.  An booster engine
set up to pull the ball would give more directional stability than one
set up to boost, but I cant see any other way than have a solid booster
mounted on a boom accomplishing.

Any ideas on modifications to this design?  Are there any other published
rescue apparatus out there?

-----

 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 601
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 602

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Ship Plans and DOOM
by Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
  2) Re: Ship Plans and DOOM
by Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
  3) Re: Imperial Cops
by Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
  4) Re: TRAVELLER digest 601
by Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
  5) Re: I didn't get Digest 599
by jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
  6) Re: Ship Plans and DOOM
by jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
  7) Working Hours etc.
by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 601
by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
  9) Re: Imperial Police
by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
 10) Re: Space survival technology
by htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
 11) Thanks for TML 599
by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
 12) Disintegrators
by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
 13) Re: Wages and Working Hours in the 57th Century
by jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
 14) Re: Ship Plans and DOOM
by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 15) Imperial Law (Very Long)
by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 21:38:45 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Ship Plans and DOOM
Message-ID: <9602180138.AA11294@ lrmi.com>

I just borrowed a friends collection of DOOM world editors, and have come
around to the idea of setting up some of the classic deck plans as DOOM
files: either for an unpopulated "tour the ship" game or for a wild and
wooly "stop the pirates" scenerio.  Has anyone else tried this idea out?
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 18:39:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Ship Plans and DOOM
Message-ID: <01I1BVSU49MA8WWPL3@POMONA.EDU>

     I can just see it: a DOOM version of "Azhanti High Lightning"... "Hell in
Space" perhaps?

Trent Smith


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:48:39 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Imperial Cops
Message-ID: <9602180248.AA11399@ lrmi.com>


peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)

>The bunch I created were real bad news to have after you.  I called them
>SCIS (Special Criminal and (counter)Intelligence Services).

Sound like all the worst features of the KGB and the Gestapo.  Any checks
and balances?  How about local law enforcement, justice, etc?
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:08:39 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 601
Message-ID: <9602180308.AA11422@ lrmi.com>

"'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>  wrote

>Now, the major problem is making this device small
>enough to be stowable in enough numbers to provide for the crew---an
>actual subordinate spacecraft would be too large for the smaller ships.


I can't find my FF&S so this may be right out, but can you build everything
into a housing rather like a missle, escapee's climb inside and launch, the
bulb deploys once the "raft" is someplace stable.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 96 15:55:48
From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: I didn't get Digest 599
Message-ID: <221b0cff.be1d9-jamesd@loki.spirit.com.au>

Hello Armand, on Feb 17 you wrote:

> I'm sorry to talk about this in the digest, but I didn't get Traveller
> Digest 599 for some reason.  I tried giving a GET command to the listserver,
> but since I don't know the path, I got an error.  The HELP GET isn't much
> help either.  If the list administrator is reading this, I ask that he
> please send me Traveller Digest 599.
For info on how to use the list server etc, have at look at the TML FAQ which
is at http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd/tml-faq.html. The short answer to your
question though, is send the command 'get traveller tml96-599' to get the
digest.

BFN,
James Dempsey
---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 96 15:59:07
From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Ship Plans and DOOM
Message-ID: <221b0dc8.3a174-jamesd@loki.spirit.com.au>

On Feb 17, Les Howie wrote:

> I just borrowed a friends collection of DOOM world editors, and have come
> around to the idea of setting up some of the classic deck plans as DOOM
> files: either for an unpopulated "tour the ship" game or for a wild and
> wooly "stop the pirates" scenerio.  Has anyone else tried this idea out?

I haven't tried it out, but it sounds great. If you have made up any ships
plans, could you send me a copy please?

BFN,
James Dempsey
---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 20:13:23 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Working Hours etc.
Message-ID: <199602180913.UAA04839@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
> Subject: Re: Working hours in the 57th Century.
>
> Hi All.
>
> Phil, you made some interesting observations about work habits in the far
> future, but some of your assumptions are debateable.  For instance, you
> state that work hours have been going down as TL increases.  This
> relationship is far from certain.  As we have seen from other discussions
> on the list, TL-0 hunter/gatherers only work about 20 hours a week, and
> this value (in earth history) has fluctuated wildly independent of TL
> ever since.  The 80-hour work week of the 19th century is widely thought
> to be a consequence of social factors (religion, class structure, etc.)
> rather than technology.

Yes. True (as far as the primitive Hunter/Gatherers are concerned), but one
coulds argue, in a sense, that they *had* no technology. If we look at the
pattern since the beginning of the Renaissance, and certainly since the start
of the Industrial Revolution, the use of increasingly complex machines made
mankind increasingly productive on a per unit basis. Of course, the reason
for the truly horrendous 80 hour weeks of the early IndRev period was, it has
been argued by others better qualified than I, the result of several factors -
and probably one of the most important ones was that society had very little
in the way of capital goods to create the IndRev with, and they had to use
BFI methods to get started. Forex, pre-Renaissance societies required something
like 95% of the populace to labour at agricultural pursuits (growing food) in
order to support the 5% who did not labour in the fields. The gradual
accumulation of intellectual and physical capital meant that, by the time the
17th and 18th centuries rolled around, agricultural production was (relatively
speaking) way up and what is termed the "agricultural revolution" was already
underway. In fact, I understand that there is ongoing debate as to whether
the Agricultural Revolution made the Industrial Revolution possible or was
simply something that happened about the same time. It is only from the 18th
century onwards that truly phenomenal increases in agricultural and industrial
productivity occur ... and, arguably, the latter area really only hit its
stride with the development of the Production Line (by Ford) and Time and
Motion studies (around the same time, AFAIR). Since then, automation has
progressed in leaps and bounds.

I have never seen seriously accepted arguments that the 80 hour work weeks of
the 18th and 19th centuries were a result of religious and class factors (not
that they don't exist, I've just never seen them! And, since I'm reasonably
widely read on the area, I would have expected to have come across them) - and,
in fact, as far as I understand it, these are thought to have been merely
modifying factors to the underlaying cause anyway, not causes in and of them-
selves.

> In our own times, work hours have been steadily climbing over the past
> decade or so despite (or perhaps because of) computerization.

Well, yes, to *some* degree ... but that's as much because (IMNSHO) more
because of the truly horrible Reaganite/Thatcherite "economic rationalist"
theories that we have had inflicted on us by know-nothing politicians and
economists masquerading as "experts". You *could* argue that, in fact, we
need *shorter* working weeks *right now* to reduce unemployment, as the
overal productivity of most western nations could easily justify this with
little or no reduction in standards of living. Such a reduction may not be
of a large order of magnitude - but just consider the number of people who
work part time or job-share and have quite a reasonable SOL even now.

  And the
> average 20th century home-maker still spends as much time on his/her task as
> 19th century homemakers despite all
> the technological help he/she recieves.  One reason for this is that as
> TL gets higher, standards get higher.

Actually, recent research on this shows no such state of affairs. More and more
women are able to enter the workforce and still maintain family lives, and yet
still reduce the number of hours they work on "home duties". Part of this is
because automation at home and at work has reduced the amount of time required
to do those things on *both* fronts and part is because they have come to
realise that, forex, it's not *necessary* to *iron the sheets* (as an example).
In Oz, forex, meal preparations has become vastly less time consuming because
of the introduction of the microwave and, more recently, the trend towards
butchers and food stores selling pre-prepared meal components; want Lemon
Chicken and Rice, but the pre-mixed, pre cut to size, but uncooked lemon
chicken and cook while cooking the rice. I do not think that your argument is
valid here. Certainly, there is much less work for women (or house husbands)
to do around the house than there was during, say, the 20's or 30's (while I
wasn't around then, my parents were, and they do *not* talk of the "good old
days" ... they like things as they are here and now, thank you very much!).
If I am overestimating the current state of affairs, I believe that you are
underestimating them by a far greater amount.

Consider the example of writing a
> research paper. Pre-computer and post-computer it takes about the same
> amount of time.  The reason is that now papers have to involve more
> references (after all, you can them _all_ from a database), and have to
> be better laid out.  Also, style is expected to be better since editing
> is so easy. Similar sorts of things apply to cleaning houses and other
> tasks.

Perhaps. I remember writing undergrad essays and they were a pain in the rear
end to do ... but they could be handwritten (if neat) c. 1973-75, now they
must be done on computer. But, as I understand it, standard templates for
the documents are provided by the various faculties ... unless you are as slow
a typist as I am, then it should make no difference (it would actually make no
difference even to me simply because computers allow you to rewrite the doc
without having to start again from scratch. I know, I had to submit my MSs to
FGU as typewritten manuscripts, and when I finally converted to an Apple II
{48k of RAM! 170k 5.25 Drive!} in c. 1980, it made a *vast* difference in my
speed of output, and I've never learned to touch type, either). Creating a
style for a doc and applying it thereafter is not any work worth the name with
a computer). I do not see that this is a valid or believable support for your
case at all. In fact, I would tend to have said that it supported *my* side
of the argument if it had been brought up in general conversation. I'm sure
that there are better arguments, but this doesn't strike me as one. (But, then
perhaps I'm just being obtuse ... always possible! :-})


> Basically, I don't think you can be so sure of a 9-hour work week.
> Social factors will interfere, and there are many sectors where computers
> do not reduce work time significantly (e.g., service sectors, creative work,
> academic areas).  These areas are likely to grow (as they have been in
> recent times) and provide people with more work.

Agreed! However, is it *work* in the sense that people will *have* to do it?
I rather like Mack Reynold's works, where the majority of the population live
on a *very* nice version of the Dole. Sure, a lot of them *do* other artsy-
craftsy things, even research and the like, but they aren't actually *employed*
doing them. They *could* be, as it is obvious from internal evidence that the
people who *are* employed work something like a "normal" late 20th century
work week ... but in that particular version of a future the workers have
chosen not to allow that to happen. A typically american-ocentric view of the
world and the way it will develop!

Remember, people
> fundamentally want to work (most of them, anyway).  Ask the vast majority
> of the unemployed and they will tell you: they're bored!  If computers
> start to take work away in certain areas (manufacturing, etc.), people
> will go into other areas.

Yes, and much of what they do will not be "work" ... if you define work as
being something they *have* to do to earn a living. Much of it will be what
we would call "leisure" today.

> Regarding starship crews, they won't necessarily be paid by the hour, but
> by the trip.  Also, they're getting free room and board along with their
> pay.  Finally, I recall a Cr being worth closer to 4 dollars.

Which makes the price of things in all versions of Traveller even *more*
ridiculously inflated than they were when it was generally understood that
1 Cr was approximately equal to 1.5 - 2 US$. Even so, in TNE terms, starship
crews are *criminally* underpaid based on their likely savings, considering
that this must also include consumer durables that they have purchased as well
as cash put away.

Phil McGregor


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 02:59:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 601
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.960218025841.101525A-100000@homer31.u.washington.
edu>


On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Les Howie wrote:

> "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>  wrote
>
> >Now, the major problem is making this device small
> >enough to be stowable in enough numbers to provide for the crew---an
> >actual subordinate spacecraft would be too large for the smaller ships.
>
>
> I can't find my FF&S so this may be right out, but can you build everything
> into a housing rather like a missle, escapee's climb inside and launch, the
> bulb deploys once the "raft" is someplace stable.
> Les Howie

That's something like the idea I was batting around, although the launch
apparatus just serves to make things more confusing.

> Senior Software Developer
> Atlantic LRMI
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 00:48 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Imperial Police
Message-ID: <m0to7bO-0002msC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>


>>There's some more useful info in the Challenge #50 article on
>>"Imperial Law", written by yours truly.  It includes the various
>>levels of imperial crime, etc., as well as some more information
>>on the structure of the Ministry of Justice.

Any chance of re-publishing it here ? Challenge wasn't a big seller here in New
Zealand, and was consequently very hard to get hold of.

Your MoJ sounds very similar to what I was trying to achieve with my "Criminal
Intelligence Office ( CIO ) => like the FBI - investigates crimes and threats".

Since MoJ exists as a published organisation, do you mind if I adopt that as the
parent body of the CIO ( or does a similar investigative body under the MoJ
already exist under another name ) ?  It sounds like a much more "fleshed out"
entity anyway, and I like the concept of a Ministry ( this is an Imperium after
all ). The conection between the Imperial Court and its investigative arm makes
more sense when they come under the same minister. Which begs the question : why
not have a Ministry of Internal Security (MIS) to which IBIS belongs ?

Any thoughts ?

And to Peter L. Berghold :

>>In a campaign that I was running a bunch of years ago I had an entity that
>>performed law enforcement duties on the behest of the Imperium that was
>>loosly based upon the IBIS that TSR published in their "Dragon" magazine.
>>
>>The bunch I created were real bad news to have after you.  I called them
>>SCIS (Special Criminal and (counter)Intelligence Services).

Can you please give me the number of the Dragon Magazine containing the article
on IBIS  ? I'll check it out ( I don't want to fly in the face of published
material unless it doesn't make sense ).

Simon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 00:24:49 +1030
From: htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Space survival technology
Message-ID: <v01530501ad4cc0a2eb48@[203.15.30.32]>

"'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>The main problem is figuring out how to get it away from a ship in
>degrading orbit (at least put the rescue ball in a stable orbit), and to
>get the ball rapidly away from a ship that's gonna blow.  An booster engine
>set up to pull the ball would give more directional stability than one
>set up to boost, but I cant see any other way than have a solid booster
>mounted on a boom accomplishing.
>
>Any ideas on modifications to this design?  Are there any other published
>rescue apparatus out there?

You could always forget the engine.  The escape pod isn't going to be able
to carry enough fuel to counter any but the weakest of gravities anyway
(let alone make it back to orbit), so you may as well just use explosives
(mounted in the docking collar) to blast the escape pod away from the
crippled ship.  If it does carry that amount of fuel, then you may as well
call it a Launch/Ship's Boat and be done with it.

Add a contra-grav unit and Bob's your uncle - a safe landing.  Clever use
of a contra-grav unit can not only allow a pod to land, but can determine
*where* it lands (by manipulating contra-grav output during approach and
atmospheric descent) and whether or not it's going to land *at all* (unless
the escape pod was launched directly *at* a planet, countering 99% of the
gravity makes it pretty easy to avoid bodies that you don't really want to
land on, such as gas giants, barren moons, and stars).

If you are happy to toss the conventional approach out of the window and
just include a Power Plant, Life Support, Sensors and a Contra-Grav device,
I'm pretty sure your escape pod will be able to recover from almost any
situation you care to mention (avoiding landing in the majority of cases,
but having controlled, safe landings when forced (or desirable) to do so).

Another thing - don't make it round.  Make it shaped like a cut diamond
(the same shape virtually all re-entry craft used to be, pre-shuttle).
More re-entry friendly than a balloon.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|               Henry Penninkilampi (htp@dove.mtx.net.au)                |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Join "EvangeList", Guy Kawasaki's (un)official Apple list-server of good|
|news about Apple, Macintosh, and third-party developers. To subscribe to|
|EvangeList, send an e-mail to: listproc@solutions.apple.com, and include|
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+------------------------------------------------------------------------+



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 23:30:55 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: Thanks for TML 599
Message-ID: <01BAFE59.3BB25F80@ppp052.on.rim.or.jp>

To Benjy Barton:  Thanks for the copy of TML 599, Benjy.  I appreciate it.
 I only got one response, yours.
Nobody seems to have been interested in my last post.  Oh, well.  At least
David Golden caught the tagline.

To Paul Walker:  Here's an ancient scout ship I created using MT rules many
years ago.  I made it as a find for the players to stumble on in the huge
starport in Secret of the Ancients.  Maybe you might be interested:
Craft ID:  Scout (Ancient) TL 21
Hull:  90/225, Disp 100, Config 5S, Armor 40H, Unloaded 986t, Loaded 1665t
Power:  2/2, Antimatter (max 15000 Mw), Powered at 6500 Mw (screen, agility
6, weapon) Dur. 30/90; Powered at 1292 Mw (no screen, weapon, agility 0)
Dur. 151/453
Locomotion:  24/32 M6, 11/14 J6, NOE 450 kph, Top 1000 kph, Cruise 750 kph,
Vacuum 4500 kph, Agility 6
Commo:  Maser (System), Radio (System)
Sensors:  Act EMS-Far Orbit, Pas EMS-Interstellar, Densit-Hi 250000 km,
Neutrino 1 kw, EMS Jam-Far Orbit, Neural-Regional; AOS:  Rout, POS:  Simp,
POP: Simp, PES:  Simp, PEP:  Rout
Offense:  Disintigrator 001 Batt 001
Defense:  White Globe 1 (energy sink absorbs 26325 Mw), DefDM +20, EMM
Control:  Comp. 13x1, Panel 6 Hololink, Bas Env, Bas Life Supp, Extended LS,
Grav Plates, Inertia Comp, Air Lockx1
Accom:  Crew 1 segment (3:  Br 2, Eng 1), 2 Sm Staterooms, 1 Emer Low
Berth
Other:  Cargo-30 dt (409 kl), Fuel-49 kl Jump Hydrogen, 267.12 kl Power
Plant Antimatter, Purif Plant + Scoops (11 min scoop, 19.6 hr purify),
Object Size Average, EM Level Faint
Psionic Computer:  PsiStr 15, Int 15, Clairvoyance 15, Special (Teleport
Others) 15, Full AI.
The ship is a metallic sphere 15 m in diameter.
Sorry, all the stats are MegaTraveller.  I haven't converted them.
I have deck plans printed out, but I don't have the original computer file
to send you.  If you give me a fax number I could fax you the deck plans (1
page).

To Fred Kiesche:  I'd be interested if you have either Atlas of the
 Imperium or Alien Module Zhodani.

FAITH (noun)
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without
knowledge,
of things without parallel.  (c) 1993 Anne Foxworthy


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 96 14:15:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Disintegrators
Message-ID: <8BB0357.1400019EE3.uuout@almac.co.uk>



Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca> writes
Subject: Disintergraters, FF&S Style?

>1) Has anyone here tried to set up a flow-chart to build a
>disintergrator,  FF&S style?
>I really, really need to build a starship armed with TL 16
>disintergrators...

Someone already suggested the beefed up nuclear damper as a dis-
integrator. A second option is a super-particle accelerator firing
Bosons or Magnetic Monopoles, either of which (based on my very sketchy
knowledge of the subject) will induce proton decay when they strike a
target. I'd imagine that information on the energy levels needed to
create these exotic particles ought to be available in particle physics
textbooks.

>2) How would a TL 16 jumpdrive be built?  The standard jumpdrive used
>fusion power, but at TL 16+, antimatter power becomes available.

Isn't that TL17+ for MAMA power plants ? However, if one were to assume
that TL17+ J-Drives used anti-matter fuel, it would seem reasonable to
expect that a TL15/16 J-Drive using a fusion plant ought to be much more
efficient than a TL14- one, both in terms of drive volume and fuel use.
Now, David Golden suggested (in line with FFS) that the hydrogen could
be argued to be coolant, but the same argument applies, higher PP
efficiency means less coolant required, et cetera. Anyway coolant
wouldn't be consumed as J-Fuel is. What is displacement mass (FFS again)
anyway ?
And since 35% of the J-Drive by volume is HPGs, again more efficient at
higher TL, this would argue for improvements in drive volume by TL.
Aargh, another can of worms !
IIRC, MT suggested that fuel usage for J-Drives went down at TL17+ (4x
volume at TL17, 3x, 2x, 1x, 0.5x etc). But they still used hydrogen
fuel.
And isn't it amazing that <<super-accurate>> FFS has no scale
efficiencies whatsoever, whereas klunky old MT did have. Not to mention
the fact that I can buy TL13ish batteries by post. Gripe, gripe. I think
I might be turning into Phil McGregor *-).

Angus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:12:44 -0500
From: jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Wages and Working Hours in the 57th Century
Message-ID: <199602181712.MAA21241@pipe9.nyc.pipeline.com>

On Feb 16, 1996 21:19:14, 'Phillip McGregor' wrote:

>
>Look at what has happened in the last hundred years (what, two or three
TLs?)
>-
>we have gone from (industry/mining) a 70+ hour week to a 50 hour week, a
48
>hour week and, at present (in Oz) a 35-40 hour week. Consider why this has

>happened/been possible - mechanisation has made individual workers vastly
more
>productive and it has been possible to increase standards of living
through
>application of this in private lives as well as reduce working hours.
There
>is every reason to believe that this sort of trend will continue -
[snip]
>
>So, how long is a work week/day in the 57th century? Considering the
current
>rate of decrease, where it has halved over around 3-4 TLs, we can
reasonably
>assume that it would halve, and halve again, from TL8 to TL15 ... if not
more!
>So, we have a 9 hour work week ... perhaps three 3 hour days and a 4 day
>weekend? Probably much less than this given the improvement in
communications
>that cut out travelling time for workers who can telecommute from home.

I think you're looking at it much too simplisticly, looking only at
the technological end while many other factors were also at play.
For instance, the increase in the standard of living only goes to those
who recieve the benefits of the productivity gain. In most cases,
that will be the owners. However, that leaves a few owners a lot
richer and the general work force still with the same standard they
had before. Historically, it's been political and economic pressure
brought about by labor unions and other organizations (some churches,
etc.), plus the threat of a more radical spectre (usually communism),
to get them to "share the wealth".

So the actual formula is not just technology.
Tech defines what is THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE,
but that will then be apportioned by various social factors, who
will only follow your linear progression in some cases, not all, and
(IMO) not most.

>
>This raises interesting problems for Traveller Starships as they have been

>described to date ... or for their crews, at least. They are vastly
overworked
>and vastly underpaid! Most of the smaller vessels - Scout/Couriers,
Far/Fat
>Traders and the like - have crews that could not man them at TL15 work
hours!

See above about "overworked," "underpaid," and "TL15 work hours".


>Even if they are not overworked, their pay must be below the poverty line.

>Consider: the best savings result possible with TNE for a character from a

>High Stellar TL world is 5000 Cr per 4 year term ... 1250 Cr per term.
Now,
>assuming that they are able to save 20% of their salary (a pretty
reasonable
>figure), this seems to indicate that they have a salary of 6250 Cr per
year.

This is close to the lowest pay-grade aboard starships. Officers will be
better off by several times, lower grades will be better by
a few times 10%.

>Now, given that 1 Cr seems to be worth around 1-2 US$, and given the costs
of
>equipment listed in Traveller's various versions, this means they *are*
living
>beneath the poverty line! It has some interesting implications for either
the
>cost of gear *or* the amount of savings a character should be allowed to
>accumulate in character creation ... or both!

True, Air/rafts are a little too common to be worth 15 years' salary.

>
>Also, if you think about what I am suggesting, it makes the almost
requirement
>that Hi-Tech Hi-Pop worlds are the guts of the Imperium (as per the
Rebellion
>in MTrav) somewhat dubious. There is considerable evidence to suggest that

>increased standards of living (regardless of religious factors here) lead
to
>smaller family sizes ... and this seems no less likely to apply to the
future.

Again, great wealth does not directly translate into a better standard
of living for all.

[High-tech factories}
> how do you envisage them ... with
>hundreds of workers bent over manually operated machine tools? Or one or
two
>supervising engineers who make sure that the automated, self-repairing and

>maintaining production lines don't manage to stuff up in a way that no-one

>had anticipated ... and even *they* are probably just supervising
computers
>who do most of the actual error checking!

Barring the social factors, whichever is cheaper.


>So what are the rest of the people
>doing? They must be in service industries ... and even there automation
and
>computerisation would reduce the numbers required, so working hours would
>be reduced *and* the number of workers would be small.

Or they could be living in street gutters, shantytowns, and clapboard
hovels, begging, doing service work for cheaper than the machines
can (which, we agree, is pretty low), and engaged in less savory
"service industries".


>
>So, there seems to be no direct connection between the size of the
population
>and the high-tech rating of a world.

No economic direct connection. The World Generation gives a tech boost
to 5- and 9+ population levels, but that tends to assume a few things
that are not neccessarily true.
[snip]


>What would all these people do outside of their 9 working hours per week?


Insert appropriate statements made previously.

>Also, we
>can assume that, for some people, education and study would be important
..
>and would boost their technology further as there seems to be evidence
that
>suggests that the number of people involved in such pursuits as a
percentage
>of the overall population is an important influence on the speed of such
>change.

Yes, but you _can't_ assume that just because this makes sense
it will be made policy or somehow naturally flow from the technology.

>All in all, 57th Century cities provide much food for thought!
>

Yes. Leisure utopias, cyberpunk-y ratholes, and/or somewhere
in between.

>Phil McGregor
--
John H Bogan           jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com

Wellcome to the Physic Friends Network!
Your Crystal Reading for Today:

Quartz, Quartz, Quartz, and Feldspar

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:51:53 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Ship Plans and DOOM
Message-ID: <9602182151.AA15921@Rt66.com>


> I just borrowed a friends collection of DOOM world editors, and have come
> around to the idea of setting up some of the classic deck plans as DOOM
> files: either for an unpopulated "tour the ship" game or for a wild and
> wooly "stop the pirates" scenerio.  Has anyone else tried this idea out?

I started working on a Marathon 2 level to do this, but haven't had the
time to really flesh it out.

-Merrick

BTW, I was playing DOOM II the other day for about 10 minutes, then had
to turn it off and play some marathon (and to think, I used to _like_
DOOM :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 96 23:09:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Imperial Law (Very Long)
Message-ID: <8BB056D.1400019F1A.uuout@almac.co.uk>


I'm not kidding, this is a long article. If it offends anyone's dearly
held beliefs, good. A bit controversy never hurt. Well, not unless
you're on one of those kooky law level zero worlds when it might result
in a few thousand fatalities, decades of mayhem and the destruction of
planetary civilization or whatever passed for it.

I can recollect reading several articles in JTAS/TD/Challenge over the
years about law and policing in the Imperium and now I've seen some bits
and bobs on the TML. Regrettably none of the foregoing have struck me as
remotely plausible. The Third Imperium was the ultimate in laissez-faire
governments where planets could wage bloody civil wars; oppress all,
some or none of the people on political, racist or religious grounds;
whatever, the Imperium never cared, just so long as the credits kept
rolling in and the railways (sorry, X-Boat routes) ran on time.

Now, we are asked to believe that an Imperial Government content to
allow and ofttimes support extremely nasty dictatorships, anti-alien
pogroms and assorted other unpleasantness would be concerned about
little events (on a relative scale) like murder and rape. Not a hope
unless the victim is an Imperial somebody, which is to say Noble, or a
member of the Imperial military or bureaucracy or someone with a great
deal of political influence or cold hard cash.  If the Imperial Govern-
ment acquiesced in the Government of Endup it certainly didn't give a
damn about the little people anywhere else in the Empire.

And just think for a moment on the difficulties of even defining murder,
a regularly suggested example of the sort of crime which IMoJ might be
concerned with, in such a variegated culture as the Imperium. The laws
of planet A say that abortion is murder; planet B has a tradition of
compulsory euthanasia; planet C holds that dueling is an entirely
acceptable way to solve arguments; a government on planet D considers
Droyne/Vargr/whoever to be unpersons and allows citizen to shoot them on
sight; planet E looks kindly on the crime passionelle &c. What is murder
on one world may not even be a crime of any sort on another. [E.G. a
Texan kook shot one of my fellow countrymen a couple of years ago in
circumstances which would probably have gotten said gun-fetishist a life
sentence here, yet he got off without even a slapped wrist]. What is
lawful on one world might be entirely unacceptable on others. [E.G. The
British Government introduced retroactive legislation some years back
allowing the trial of WWII war criminals, something that the US supreme
court would kick out in ten seconds. E.G. Trial by jury is completely
unknown in most countries, and so on ad infinitum on one poxy little
balkanised TL8 world]. Were the Imperium to attempt to define the
meaning of murder as a criminal act it would be all but impossible, and
this applies equally to the Late-C20th-Middle-Class-US-centric lists of
other crimes that are usually presented for our edification in this
regard.

As well as these practical difficulties in defining crimes such as
murder, and the actively disinterested nature of Imperial Government,
consider the cultural nature of the Empire. While the majority of
contributors to this list are relatively wealthy Euros (by descent),
such people are a certainly minuscule fraction of an Empire dominated by
Solomani of overwhelmingly non-1st World origin, reactionary Vilani and
assorted minor and alien races. The personal views held by the average
poster to this list are probably a very poor guide indeed to the views
of the average Imperial, just as they would be a poor guide to the views
of the average inhabitant of the Earth. After all, the Empire is no more
Yanks in Space than 2300 was  - albeit that every 2300 article and
scenario ever written seemed to deal with the irritating Colonials and
much Traveller material is written as if the Empire were run by 57th
Century versions of 20th Century inhabitants of Eerie, Indiana or
Normal, Illinois, usually the former. I guess that average Tsolyani (*)
would be as incomprehensible to us as the Imperials would be. Arguments
for the Yanks in Space zeitgeist on the basis of the Americanization of
Earth via Hollywood culture are easily demolished by the case of
supposedly Americanized Japan, which is as just as alien as anywhere
else.

So, in view of all this, if the <<brownshirt zampolit thugs>> of IMoJ
were unconcerned with murders - unless of Nobles or Imperial officials -
and like crimes, what did they actually do ? For the Imperial Govern-
ment, the continuance of the Imperial Government and it's trappings
appears to have been the major - if not indeed only concern of the
apparatus of state, a classical self-perpetuating military regime with
the Zhunastu's and their successors as a long series of hereditary
Maximum Leaders. So IMoJ were most likely not an interstellar FBI/
Interpol dedicated to fighting crime, they would be closer to an inter-
stellar Gestapo dedicated to stamping out treason, sedition, forged
credits and sundry other crimes against the state (as defined by the
just and merciful Imperial Government of course), together with the very
occasional bit of real police work

Now, you could argue that Lucan's IMoJ and Dulinor's equivalent were not
representative of the organisation in the Good Old Days. And you might
be right, although J. Edgar Hoover's FBI was busy ruining the lives of
so-called subversives at around the same time that it was being publicly
lauded as a great crime fighting organisation, and this in a supposed
democracy. So, how much worse could one expect even from a generally
well-intentioned bunch of secret policeman, in an unrepresentative,
unaccountable autocracy like the Imperium ?

If you want to know what IMoJ was really like, don't look at Imperial
propaganda (which is to say almost everything ever published for
Traveller). After all, the Nazis would present the downright evil
Gestapo as a tough but fair and necessary force to track down enemies of
the people, so with the Imperium and the reptilian IMoJ. Since IMoJ
fulfilled the same role in the Imperium that SolSec did in the Solomani
Confederation, read what the Empire's propaganda machine had to say
about SolSec - secret agents, omnipresent sneaking informers, murder
squads, overthrowing uncooperative governments, and other assorted
nastiness. Now you know how the Imperial Ministry of Justice worked in
practice.

So, if criminal characters don't have to fear IMoJ (unless they are
would-be rebels or have done something to upset the Imperial apple cart
or someone with real political clout), who is going to bring them to
justice for robbing the unimportant and influence-free First Planetary
Bank of Hornswoggle ? [If it was owned by Hortalez IMoJ would be on the
trail right away]. Well, if the Government doesn't supply justice, it's
going to be a job for private enterprise. After all, you can't always
rely on extradition treaties between governments on one world, let alone
on different ones.

Instead of having to high tail it out of the system one step ahead of
the police, it'll be bounty hunters on their trail instead. (Hell, it
gets more like the Wild West every day - more bloody Yanks in Space !).
And while the police might exercise some restraint in catching
criminals, Bounty Hunters Unlimited will be more concerned about it's
bottom line than any putative rights the perps might think they should
have. Now isn't that a lot less fun for the characters than being chased
by the local version of the Keystone Cops ? And those who have offended
the powerful and face the power of IMoJ and the armed forces sont vrai-
ment dans la merde jusqu'aux les oreilles, les pauvres gars.

The IISS-SB appear to be of limited interest (and utility) and smacks
more of letting Scout characters play spooks than anything else. IRIS we
should ignore as a very unfortunate mistake. Their appearance puzzled me
as much as it puzzled Strephon (and I've got the relevant issues of
Challenge with the word variant at the top of those pages !). Other
branches of the Imperial Government might have some form of
investigative branch, especially the revenue-raising arm of the state
since the Imperial machine won't run without hard cash - pas d'argent,
pas de Suisses. It doesn't seem really likely that the Imperial Revenue
Service will wheel out it's Arakoine class strike cruisers to collect
taxes from non-paying planets, but no doubt they will have some spook or
police-like arm. So, the characters may have to flee someday from a
relentless pursuit by armed agents of the IRS over unpayed taxes on that
big lottery win.

Before the Plummerite pro-Imperial faction wades in to tell me what a
lot of rubbish the above is, and how the Third Imperium was a warm,
fuzzy, loving totalitarian dictatorship, please explain why all those
despicable governments - Junidy, Vanejen, Endup, Lintl, Pavabid and
many, many others - were allowed to remain in power when the Imperial
forces could readily have removed them with minimal fuss. Remind me how
often the people were consulted on Imperial policy, how they weren't
treated like lab rats in grandiose psychohistorical experiments,
needlessly geneered into weird and useless forms, et cetera.

Even Norris's Regency is a state driven by political expediency and the
love of the status quo, since the Regency Marines could have extermin-
ated any and all forces at the disposal of the Ward of Vision in fifteen
minutes flat, thus liberating Endup/Lucifer without untold deaths and
years of unneeded suffering. Partisans of the Regency as a democratic
government have a good deal of furious rationalization to do. Dupes of
Imperial and Regency propaganda, now's your chance to recognise the
truth !

Angus

(*) The Tsolyani are a human dominated nation on the aeons-hence world
of Tekumel described in M.A.R. Barker's books (Man of Gold, Flamesong)
and various games such as Empire of the Petal Throne, Swords & Glory and
Gardasiyal, and about as alien humans as are depicted in a RPG. Not to
be missed if you like a well-developed, internally consistent and un-
usual fantasy background, even if Gardasiyal is to this milieu what
Traveller: The Nilsen Era was to CT/MT - a god-awful set of rules with a
decent background.

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 602
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 603

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 602 by Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 602 by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
  3) Re: HIWG by "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
  4) The Jaws of Life by "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 600 by "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@snakemail.hut.fi>
  6) Conserving M, Police, Working 9 to 5, 6g corridors... by A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
  7) G-turns & Travel Times by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  8) Doom level creators by t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
  9) Re: New Abilities? by Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
 10) RE: Limits on artificial-gravity. by Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
 11) Working Hours & etc. by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
 12) Re: Imperial Law by fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
 13) Re: TRAVELLER digest 601 by David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 20:45:31 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 602
Message-ID: <9602190045.AA12810@ lrmi.com>

angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote

{ rather a lot, actually, so I'm not going to do a quote }

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  Even the Empire our own parts of
the world were so recently part of never had much in the way of uniform,
wide reaching, fairly administered justice  -- and sometimes they even tried to.

My bet on the "operative" part of the imperial ministry of justice is that
its priories are:

1. Piracy.  This is very bad for business, intereferes with tax collection,
and messes up the xboat schedules. Got to keep a tight reign on that.

2. Sedition.  Probably somewhat KBGish, but without the manpower to do
really effective job of it.

3. Really serious crimes -- Translation: doing something to an imperial
noble that the right honorable worthy does not like very much at all.

The indirect administration the empire conducts reminds me rather more of
India before the Raj (of course, look what happened there) or US/USSR
neo-colonialism in the 1960's.

There would probably be a sort of starport police, with a mandate much like
Canadian Railway or National Harbours Board Police (which is actually quite
extensive, especially CPR police in Western Canada: do other counties have
the same sort of thing?) -- basic law enforcement inside the spaceport fence
(and power of arrest as far outside as they can negotiate with the local
authorities.)

I expect that high law level worlds with similar government's would have
recipricol agreements on arrest and extradition, and might even form
subsector-sized "interpol"-like organizations.

Now is the operative law on a starship:

1. The law of the planet of registry
2. The law of the planet of departure
3. The law of the first planetfall
4. Some other imperial law
5. Whatever the captain thinks he can get away with?

I would guess 4 (drifting toward 5), simply because starships tend never to
leave imperial jurisdiction, but its an interesting question.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 18:10:47 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 602
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.960218180516.71395A-100000@homer29.u.washington.edu>


On Sun, 18 Feb 1996, Les Howie wrote:

> angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote
>
> Now is the operative law on a starship:
>
> 1. The law of the planet of registry
> 2. The law of the planet of departure
> 3. The law of the first planetfall
> 4. Some other imperial law
> 5. Whatever the captain thinks he can get away with?

I would imagine that starship laws would be somewhat like maritime
laws--that is a cross between planet/country of registry and the cosmic
equivalent of the airspace within which the starship currently resides.
This would make the most sense---a ship in orbit would be subject to laws
of the planet it orbits (in addition to any restrictions of its
commission).  And if you happen to fly from the Imperium/Regency/RC/etc.
into neighboring <fill in the alien race> space then that starship would
be subject to those laws---the only (diplomatic) recourse of the nation
trying to recover an offending ship in foreign "waters" would be via
extradition.

> I would guess 4 (drifting toward 5), simply because starships tend never to
> leave imperial jurisdiction, but its an interesting question.
> Les Howie
> Senior Software Developer
> Atlantic LRMI
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 11:49:00 EST
From: "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
To: "'TML'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: HIWG
Message-ID: <3128F14D@msmailv0.telecom.com.au>


Canticle <canticle@ARATAR.MB.CA> writes:

 ---------------------------------
Does anyone have any idea how I could get a hold of this organization?
Either e-mail contact, a PO Box, or even a phone #?
 ---------------------------------

Yep, try c.bush3@genie.geis.com

 ---------------------------------
GothCode1.1 GoSS+ T3(4) B11Bk@ c1z++ P1(3,4) M++ a22 n---- b+:- H5'7" g m--#
w++ r+ D+ h+P(3,4) s9 k+++ R+ Ssy LcaMB+
 ----------------------------------

Oh another goth in here.
You know there's version 2.0 of the Gothcode out now.
Wanna be added to alt.gothic.traveller?

Django.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 18:21:26 -0800 (PST)
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM, Troy Goffin <jona9454@uidaho.edu>
Subject: The Jaws of Life
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9602181804.A7953-0100000@well>

Iris valves are described as follows:

"Iris valves are pressure-sensitive automatic portals set in bulkheads....
It functions much like the iris of a camera; many panels retract into the
frame to leave an open passage, or extend to block the portal with solid
metal....  Valves cannot be forced closed if already open.

"Valves are very difficult to force open once fully closed.  Throw 9+ to
force open a closed iris valve; DM +1 if strength 10+, +2 if dexterity
10+, -3 if the person is in vacc suit, +2if ship power off, -8 if locked.
Gunfilre and explosions will simply block the valve tighter."

Supplement 7, Traders and Gunboats, at 6-7.

The illustrations show a concentric ring around the iris valve.  Id.

The fact that one can force an iris with bare hands suggests that valves'
plates overlap slightly.  I propose a tool to facilitate forcing iris
valves.  I would for historical reasons call it "the jaws of life."

The jaws of life works as follows:  One jaw is placed against an
overlapping plate.  The other is placed against the inside of the
concentric ring.  By means of a lever, the first jaw is pushed against the
overlapping plate until it is forced back.

The lever can also be motorized.

The jaws of life is commonly carried by rescue teams and boarding parties.
Starships normally carry several with their fire-fighting gear.  The jaws
of life is manufactured by many companies at various tech levels.  Ling
Standard Products' non-motorized TL 9 version retails for about Cr100;
motorized for Cr750.

In MT game terms, use of the jaws of life makes the task roll one level
easier (I haven't found the task in MT; where is it?); in CT, DM +8 for
use.  Applicable skill in either system would be mech, but the skill's
only application is to get the device seated properly.  Once it's in, even
I could make it work.

By copy hereof, I am asking my brother, who recently obtained his
mechanical engineering degree, to make a rough design for us.

Your comments and suggestions are appreciated.

--Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:31:16 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@snakemail.hut.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 600
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960219092705.19622B-100000@lk-hp-28.hut.fi>


Hello!

I have these questions about Traveller universe : what does jumpspace
look like? I mean, if a viewport is "open", so that you can look through
it, what do you see? Black? "Normal" space? Swirling colours?

Another: Can hatches be opened in jumpspace? In other words, is EVA possible?

Mikko Parviainen
mvparvia@snakemail@hut.fi


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:26:21 +0000
From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Conserving M, Police, Working 9 to 5, 6g corridors...
Message-ID: <199602191033.FAA17223@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

ZPE

anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman) proposed a means by which early
T-Plates could work while conserving momentum. I would say that even without
such an explanation, many of the phenomenon of Traveller could be explained
by areas of science as yet unknown or barely understood, e.g. the concept
that there's a lot of energy out there just waiting to be tapped as Zero
Point Energy. Anyone know anything about this stuff? It's sort of been
linked to cold fusion and high-frequency electromagnetic effects...

POLICE

Simon provided a nice analysis of the requirements for an Imperial Police force.

I would suggest however, that perhaps rather than:
>And the Scout Service is more likely to be spending its budget spying on the
>Zhodani, Vargr, and other EXternal threats than wasting its time looking for
>"reds under the bed" so to speak. In other words, I believe that the Scouts
are
>a externally directed organisation...
perhaps one should consider that the Scouts are the ones who have the
greatest feel for the development of a world and are usually concerned with
watching over new worlds for decades if not centuries. They would therefore
be ideally placed (if not required) to have a significant force dedicated to
the manipulation and control of planetary evolution, which will typically be
achieved through the planetary governments, by ensuring that the right
people get into power and that their "good" works (whatever that means in an
Imperial sense) are not ruined by terrorists, coups, etc. Certainly, in my
games, the Scout Corp has a very extensive but secretive role in the
development of almost all worlds. And once they've got their foot in the
door, why shouldn't the Emperor (or whoever's running the Regency, etc.)
continue to use them to watch and/or manipulate the later governments?

Clearly though, they would only be interested in fairly major crimes which
could upset their "plan" for a world. There is still a requirement for a
more general inter-system law enforcement bureau.

WORKING 9 TO 5 (Sing-along-with-Andy)

Phillip McGregor suggests that by TL14/15 people will be working 9 hour
weeks (or somesuch). Hmmm... most of the productivity increases have
occurred in the last 20-30 years but has anyone noticed the way current
management policy has adapted, i.e. make the workforce work the same hours
to produce MORE goods so the managers can get paid more for giving greater
share dividends to their share-holders...

Re the poverty line, I think one needs to remember that the TNE book is
based upon a collapsed society, i.e. it is almost totally RC-oriented.
Figures probably ought to be adjusted upward for a society such as the
Regency where money still has a much greater usage (in the RC I envisage
high tech goods being a more solid bartering medium than cash).

Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com> asks
>I'm trying to find out how accuratly the artificial gravity on a ship
>can be controlled.

In my games, the G field is anywhere from zero to about 1.5g, this being the
range likely to be found on planets the ships will visit (i.e. suitable for
almost any life form they will meet). There is no reason for higher g forces
unless specifically designed in as a defence measure, etc. The g field is in
addition to any other accelerations acting on crew, so although there is
usually assumed to be some form of 1g-ish acceleration compensation field
(to prevent everyone 'falling' to the back of the ship), higher
accelerations may outweigh both the compensation field and the floor
gravity. (The floor g is generally fixed, whereas the compensation varies
automatically with manoeuvre drive acceleration). Given the way g fields
vary with range, you cannot easily have small localised effects (e.g.
lifting a single person off their feet). Similarly, unless the walls are
particularly thick, the gravity field in one room may stretch a little into
the surrounding rooms, so you don't want huge disparities in g between
rooms. You don't need 6g plates in walls to throw intruders down long
corridors, just turning the gravity on and off every few seconds will be
quite sufficient to prevent effective action by an intruder, while the crew
stand some way off in a stable gravity area and pepper the intruders with
whatever artillery they have to hand...

>This does leave some questions as to why hyjacking is a problem if you
>can just throw them down a side corridor at 6g...

Hijacking is almost impossible anyway if the ship is sensibly equipped with
cameras, good locks, solid bulkheads and doors, etc. Just open the nearest
air lock... ok they might be in vacc suits, but if they haven't secured
themselves then they'll get blown out anyway. Hijacking is _very_ difficult.

Enough...

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 19:08:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: G-turns & Travel Times
Message-ID: <795gJD2w165w@krypton.rain.com>

fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker) writes:

>I have two questions.
>
>1)  If the distance from orbit 19 to orbit 1 is 19,608,260.0 lightseconds
>    (using 4D6 = 10),

Please note that this is 227 light-days. Or a bit over 6/10ths of a
light year! That's a pretty extreme distance regardless of which set of
rules you use.

In CT, at a *steady* 6g, (accelerate to midpoint, flip over and
decelerate until arrival) it'd take 115 days. But that's ignoring
Einstein. Note that 6g for 59 days would have you at light-speed if it
wasn't for Einstein. So a trip that far at 6g will be *strongly*
influenced by relativity!

>    then if you burn 50 G-hours (100 G-turns More than most traders carry),
>    then would your travel time be 54,903,128.0 minutes (915,052.0 hours;
>    38,127.0 days; 104 years)????  Are these calculations correct (the rules
>    aren't clear to my feeble brain:))

50 G-hours will get you up to 1.8e6 km/sec. The amount of distance you
cover while accelerating depends on what acceleration you are using.

At that speed, you'll cover the distance in 3.3e9 seconds, 5.6e9 min,
9.3e5 hours, 3.9e4 days, or 106 years.

>    Are these numbers less than, more than, or same as reality??

As you can see above, they are pretty close.

>    These types of time frames seem that they would severly alter the
>    history of Traveller.  (I know this is a major discussion here,
>    forgive me that I have just noticed the ludicracy of the rules.)

Not really. You picked *the* most extreme case possible.

Let's try something a bit more reasonable.

1 AU = 1.5e11 m (approx)

(figures below are from a modified Bode's law calc, so they aren't
accurate to more than a couple of places...)

Mercury  0.4 AU
Venus    0.7 AU
Earth 1.0 AU
Mars 1.6 AU
* 2.8 AU
Jupiter  5.2 AU
Saturn  10.0 AU
Uranus  19.6 AU
Neptune 29.2 AU
Pluto   38.8 AU

So, from Earth to Jupiter is anytyhing from 4.2 AU to 6.2 AU, ignoring
the fact that course lines *aren't* straight.

So, A typical trip would be from Jupiter to Earth (nearest GG to mainworld).
Assume worst case distances. (all numbers shown to only 2 significant
figures)
6.2 * 1.5e11 = 9.3e11
We want half that distance for the constant boost case.
4.7e11
d=a*t^2/2, so at 6 g....
4.7e11=(6*9.8)*t^2/2
9.3e11=5.9e1*t^2
1.6e10=t^2
1.3e5=t

So at constant 6 g boost, it'll take 1.3e5 seconds to get to the
turnover point, or 2.5e5 for the whole trip. That's 2.9 days. And the
max speed (at turnover) is 7.4e6 m/sec or 7,400 km/sec. So that's what
Classic Traveller says.

Now, with the 50 g-hour fuel limit we'll use *half* of it to accel and
half for decel. And we'll figure on 6 g.
25 G hours gives a speed of: 8.8e5 m/sec or 880 km/sec
That's less than 1/8th the speed for the CT ship.
At 6g you burn 25 G-hours in 4.2 hours, or 1.5e4 seconds. So from start
to end of the burn, we cover 6.6e9 meters. Ditto for the decel burn at
the other end. That leaves 9.2e11 meters to cover while coasting at
8.8e5 m/sec. So we coast for about 1 million seconds. Giving a total
trip time of a bit over 14 days.
And it gets worse the farther out you go.

BTW, assuming a fusion drive with an ISP of 6e5 for the CT ship, I get
fuel usage of about 500 tons for a 200 ton ship. :-)

Gee... That kinda screws that up doesn't it?

>2)  I'm having trouble with the reaction mass computations.  When creating a
>starships I thought reaction mass was:
>
>                Thrust MW x 0.25  = cubic meter per G-hour.
>
>The vessels in the book seem to have a value computed by:
>
>                (Thrust MW/Maneuver G's) x 0.25 = cubic meters per G-hour.
>
>Was there an update that I missed, or am I looking at the numbers wrong?

Reaction mass usage in the *real* world is directly dependent of
exhaust velocity, and thrust. Period.

Ev = thrust/fuel consumption.

therefore:

Fuel consumption = thrust/exhaust velocity.

If thrust is in metric tons, and exhaust velocity is in meters per
second, then fuel consumption will be in tons per second. Or you could
even use displacement tons for both.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:09:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Doom level creators
Message-ID: <S9602191109.AA25986@sysc.abdn.ac.uk>


Yep
I have strated using one that starting level is that of a
modified clipper with cargo *heh*.
Level 1 starts off in the crashed wreckage of this spacecraft.
Unfortunatly this is on my home pc, started at chritmas,
which is 500 miles from my present location.
However, i have purposly used crashed spacecraft due to the fact that doom
is layed out as a 2d plan for a 3d game.
I would rather a designer came out for a 3-d plan of a 3-d game before
i converted deck designs.
The only one that i know of is descent designer, and that could be a
challenge.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:52:53 +0000
From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New Abilities?
Message-ID: <m0toUAY-0001H2C@kiel.netsurf.de>

[...]

>If you want to make it really simple, why don't we just have 2
>Abilities?  Body and Mind.  Body is Strength, Dexterity,
>Agility, Constitution, and Fitness.  Mind is Intelligence,
>Perception, Education, and Will.  Two numbers to deal
>with..simple!  No, I'm not really serious. <g>

Well, at the first moment, it sounds strange, but it might be enough...

In fact, if you add a social ability, let's say Soul, you have the three
basic characteristics of Forgotten Futures. FF works very well with these
three abilities and if that system does, why not Traveller? FF is a very
simple and easy system but that's no disadvantage in my opinion.

However, for my own SF rules, I split each characteristic in two
sub-characteristics, feeling a little unconfortable with only 3 abilities.

Body and Speed (or Quickness) are the physical abilities. Body covers
strength and endurance. Quickness covers agility and physical dexterity.
Manual dexterity isn't covered by a basic abilitiy but will be a consequnce
of skills. Body defines wound capacity and melee combat. Quickness is also a
combat (especially missle and gun combat) related ability and needed for
quick reaction tests.

Intelligence and Awareness (or Perception) are the mental skills. Especially
awareness is useful for all kind of oberservation and perception tests.
Intelligence is a base value for most skills.

Charisma and Willpower are my social skills. Charisma is the persons effect
to other persons. Willpower defines mental endurance and the ability to have
one's way. Strong personalities aren't as effected by psi as weak ones.

I think, I could live with only 3 stats. You can't describe a person by
using some numbers. It the aditional description that gives a person some
characteristics.  The numbers are only needed for the rules - that is
combat, health and task resolution. A physical stat will handle combat and
health. Physical, Mental and Social stats will define base values for all
kind of skills.

bye
--
Stefan Matthias Aust  //  ...come on, kiss the frog!
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/sma/


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:19:46 GMT
From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Limits on artificial-gravity.
Message-ID: <8277.9602191219@pcdev7.delcam.com>

That Computer Guy writes:
>
> : I'm trying to find out how accuratly the artificial gravity on a ship
> : can be controlled.  To be able to roll the ship, and still give the
> : appearance of a shared downwards direction, this would appear to be a
> : quite fine definition of scaling.
>
> If I recall, it's something like .5G to 1.5/2G.  It's enough to keep
> most races happy by giving the feel of their homeworld's gravity.

If I remember correctly (my copy of FF&S isn't here at the moment) it
is stated that the ships artificial gravity is used to counter its
acceleration, up to 6Gs on TL15 ships.  I would have thought this
could simply be reoriented to which ever direction was desired.

It has also been mentioned to me that a ship design turned up in an
adventure somewhere, for a bounty hunter type ship.  In the area
around the ship's brig the gravity could be turned up to 6G to prevent
breakouts.  This is only second hand information so I could also be
wrong on this point as well...

> I think that this is on a room by room basis.  I always assumed that
> it was localized based on area.  You know, the entire bridge, a
> section of hallway, a room.  Anything that could be partitioned off
> from another area.

To apply a constant direction across a spinning ship, could result in
some drastic changes in vector, within a room, particularly a large
room.  Consider a bridge in a coaxial position, if the ship rotates
about this axis, the applied extra gravity has to be 'down' on one
side, and 'up' on the other (modified towards the midpoint for
centripetal force)...

Chris.



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 00:00:56 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Working Hours & etc.
Message-ID: <199602191300.AAA17184@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> From: jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
> Subject: Re: Wages and Working Hours in the 57th Century
>
> On Feb 16, 1996 21:19:14, 'Phillip McGregor' wrote:
>
> I think you're looking at it much too simplisticly, looking only at
> the technological end while many other factors were also at play.
> For instance, the increase in the standard of living only goes to those
> who recieve the benefits of the productivity gain. In most cases,
> that will be the owners. However, that leaves a few owners a lot
> richer and the general work force still with the same standard they
> had before. Historically, it's been political and economic pressure
> brought about by labor unions and other organizations (some churches,
> etc.), plus the threat of a more radical spectre (usually communism),
> to get them to "share the wealth".

Yes, but there are consequences if the wealth is *not* shared. Consequences
that cannot be ignored ... remember the "let them eat cake" incident? I'm
sure Marie Antoinette's spriritual heirs do! Without trying deliberately to
tread on any toes here, I recently heard a very interesting argument from
an American historian (or was it an economist ... or an economic historian?
I don't have the source handy) who argued that the US was working itself into
big trouble because its ruling class (and he included the wealthy as well as
the powerful in this category) had convinced themselves that they were "just
folks", and that they had no special responsibilities towards those they rule.
That is, "I've got a million $ through 'hard work' (inherited most of it or
otherwise was 'assisted' by elective office or the 'old boys network') so why
should *I* pay taxes to support welfare recipients ... they're obviously lazy
bums who could make a million *if* they'd only try" (vastly simplifying things
of course!) ... and forgetting something that he suggested European ruling
classes seem not to have (and he included ruling classes of primarily european
ex-colonies like Canada, Oz and Kiwiland), the idea of "noblesse oblige". In
other word, you get all the bennies of being top dog, but there's a price to
pay ... call it charity, call it unemployment benefits, call it socialism; it
doesn't matter, as long as you take care of the mythical "ordinary man".

His argument seemed to be that a Cyberpunk style dark future is only possible
in the US or in those countries that seem hell bent on adopting US attitudes
in this area ... such as Thatcherite (and Majorite) Britain. Now, I know that
even Democratic politics is, *in Oz terms*, further to the right than Attila
the Hun, but why assume that the whole of the future is going to be an exact
clone of late 20th century America? Sure, undoubtedly some planets will pursue
such a course ... but others will pursue different ones, ones more (to use a
word the US Media tells us *all* good citizens equate with baby killing and
not liking mom's apple pie) "liberal" (or, *shock* *horror* ... *socialist* ...
in the european rather than Russian/Chinese sense). And I would suggest that
the Reaganite/Thatcherite vision of the future is likely to be less stable
than any other (which is *not* suggesting that the alternatives will be
stable ... merely relatively more so)! This is, of course, personal opinion
only, though there are facts that support it ... no doubt there are facts that
argue against it!

> So the actual formula is not just technology.
> Tech defines what is THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE,
> but that will then be apportioned by various social factors, who
> will only follow your linear progression in some cases, not all, and
> (IMO) not most.

Of course you are correct. I am assuming that the ruling classes, whether
democratic, oligarchic, autocratic or dictatorial or whatever, will have some
desire to survive ... and creating a semi-permanent underclass is *not* the
way to do it in the long term. Especially not in an interstellar society.
*UNLESS* you are prepared to propose some pretty dramatic *and* drastic
differences between your proposed tiny ruling class/huge underclass society
and the rest of the Imperium. This, of course, could well be done (though I
don't think it would be stable ... PCs just *love* overthrowing such
abominations!), but would be the exception rather than the rule. You would
also have to explain *why* the tiny ruling class *needs* the huge underclass.
It would be much simpler to put birth control chemicals in their slop and
water and keep on a minimal number on hand to be servants.

> This is close to the lowest pay-grade aboard starships. Officers will be
> better off by several times, lower grades will be better by
> a few times 10%.

Yes, but nowhere in TNE is this stated. Yes, we can guess this from stuff in
MTRav and CTrav, but not from anything in TNE. *Another* annoying oversight!

> Again, great wealth does not directly translate into a better standard
> of living for all.

Yes, but if it doesn't, you have to explain *why* it doesn't. While the
Imperium is *not* a democracy, I do not believe that there is any evidence
that the sort of repressive government you are proposing exists any more
frequently there than it does on Terra here and now.

> Or they could be living in street gutters, shantytowns, and clapboard
> hovels, begging, doing service work for cheaper than the machines
> can (which, we agree, is pretty low), and engaged in less savory
> "service industries".

Yes, they *could* be, but you have to explain *why* ... and how they are being
kept in line. You could suggest something such as Mack Reynolds used in his
future history of Westworld vs. Sovworld; or you could use the CoDominium of
Jerry Pournelle. Of course, in both instances there are forces within that
are working to destroy and overthrow the system ... inevitable. There simply
is no real reason for a large underclass ... simply breed them out of existence
(read some of F.M. Busby's "Rissa and Tregare" books for a truly horrifying
society that attempts to do just that ... and fails because of rebels that
are nourished within its own ranks!).

> Yes, but you _can't_ assume that just because this makes sense
> it will be made policy or somehow naturally flow from the technology.

All too true, but we *can* assume that if it *isn't* the case the society in
question will *not* be a very nice one at all ... great for local colour, but
*not* one the PCs will want to have much to do with ... except for supporting
the inevitable local "underground" in fighting the oppression of the tiny
ruling classes.

> >All in all, 57th Century cities provide much food for thought!
>
> Yes. Leisure utopias, cyberpunk-y ratholes, and/or somewhere
> in between.

More likely the former or a something more on that side of it than the "some-
where in between" option, simply because the alternatives will so often be
short lived and self-limiting!

Phil McGregor


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:52:21 -0600
From: fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Imperial Law
Message-ID: <199602191652.KAA10683@osh1.datasync.com>

>
>From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
>
>Subject: Imperial Law (Very Long)
>
>I'm not kidding, this is a long article. If it offends anyone's dearly
> ...
>Dupes of Imperial and Regency propaganda, now's your chance to recognise the
>truth !
>
>Angus
>

Spoken with the lust of a true Solomani.  Like all others of your breed
<sneer> you verbally attack our benevolent Empire.  You attempt to lower us
to your inferior Solomani filth with your evil propaganda.  Your words will
not go without being heard, this is a free-speech forum.  You will likely
find any true Imperial subjects to buy your Solomani Bag of Lies.

Admit the truth, you Solomani are jealous of the glorious Imperium.  You
pathetic "Rule of Man" did nothing to help advancements in our universe, in
fact you virtually caused the Long Night.  You can't deal with the fact that
Imperial ways are better than your Solomani ways.  And we proved it when we
conquered Terra and defeated your foolish government.

Long live Strephon - Long live the Imperium!!!


                - Paul Walker (77998A), Ambassador to Traveller Free-Speech
Forum
                        (Remarks in Response to Angus - dated 049-1115)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
- Paul {tiger}

"54-40 or Fight!" - TBWSK


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:13:34 +0000 (GMT)
From: David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 601
Message-ID: <199602192213.WAA01031@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>

> From: fibbert@golden.net
> >How does CG slow descent, In BL p15 states"CG lifters do not provide
> >thrust and so cannot physically lift a ship. Instead, they neutralize
> >most of the gravitational attraction of a world (approx. 99% of
> >Gravitational force. This combined with atmoshere pressure, will
> >provide buoyancy in VERY DENSE ATMOSPHERES...
>
> Drop a rock on the Moon,  watch it fall.
> Drop a rock on Earth, watch it fall.
>
> The lower gravity on the Moon causes objects to accellerate more
> slowly, thus falling slower.

The rock may accelletate at a slower rate however on the moon it will
never reach terminal velocity, as there is no reactive force against
the object (i.e. atmosphere)

> An unstreamlined ship can move through
> an atmosphere slowly - and if using CG would reach it's terminal
> velocity at a much slower speed.

Unless the object has thruster to slow it down it will continue to accelerate
until the force of the atmosphere against the object matches that of the
gravity provided by the planet the object is landing on. Once it reaches
terminal velocity it will continue to heat up as it passes through atmosphere
thus if it has any open area, (exposed antenna, etc) these could get damaged
during decent

As you also mention does it have the Landing gear and equipment to have a safe
landing, all of these make it simple to believe that some that has the
flight characteristics of an Oil tanker might find it hard to land on a
planet

Dave

--

/*-------------------------------------------------------------*\
| dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk : David Mark Johnson            |
| The future's so bright, I gotto wear shades                   |
\*-------------------------------------------------------------*/

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 603
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 604

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Imperial Police by Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
  2) Re: Hijacking Difficulties. by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  3) Re:The Work-Week of the Future by "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
  4) Re: DOOMED starship deckplans by James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
  5) Angus McClellan by "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
  6) Re: TRAVELLER digest 602 by peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
  7) Re: TRAVELLER digest 602 by library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
  8) Imperial Law article excerpts & commentary by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
  9) GG defending by Paajanen Jyrki JYP <jyrki.paajanen@ttgroup.fi>
 10) Re: GG defending by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:21:54 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Imperial Police
Message-ID: <199602192321.RAA05017@natasha.itlabs.umn.edu>

I've got a few more comments on the law-enforcement thread:

If we're going to move on to intelligence services, which really should have
nothing to do with law enforcement, we know of some more organizations.

On the military side, we have Imperial Naval Intelligence (INI) to gather naval
intel, and Imperial Naval Counter-Intelligence (INCI) to stop the enemy from
returning the favor.  There's also Imperial Army Intelligence (IAI).  Their
purposes should be fairly clear.  During the 5FW in the Marches there was also
an "Office of Naval Information" founded by SADM Santanocheev, abolished by
Duke Norris, which was less than competent and did the same thing as INI.

On the civilian side, there's the Imperial Intelligence Agency (IIA) usually
known as Imperial Intelligence, and possibly the same as Combined Imperial
Intelligence (from _Flaming Eye_, _Argon Gambit_, and _Survival Margin_
respectively).  The IISS Intelligence Branch operates out of the Detached
Duty Office.  They have covert operatives, but get most of their intelligence
from the collection of logbooks from detached duty Scout/Couriers when they
visit scout bases for service.  (I consider IISS personnel to be civil
servants, not soldiers, although they can get pressed into service in time
of war, like the people who operate subsidized merchants.)  There's also some
rumors about top secret covert groups operating under Imperial Warrant
authority in the IISS, but as far as I'm concerned they're only that.
Finally, there's a TNS reference to the Ministry of Information, which we
know nothing about.

<simonm@ramhb.co.nz> wrote:

>The conection between the Imperial Court and its investigative arm makes
>more sense when they come under the same minister.

Actually, I don't see it this way.  We know that MoJ has special investigators,
from TNS.  We know they oversee the prisons, from _Kinunir_.  But at least in
my view they shouldn't be running the courts.  The courts should be appointed
by the Emperor based on the recommendations of the regional nobility standing
in representation of their worlds.  The Emperor can ignore them of course, but
only at political peril -- there are ways that the nobility can resist the whim
of an emperor.  I'd rather not see the Imperial courts of law run by the MoJ.

Despite the flaws I see in the bizarre mating of the Vilani caste system and
the structure of the Terran Confederation that we call the Imperium, I'd like
to have it set up to function as honestly as we can.  I don't buy that a strong
feudal confederation is the only way to go -- the Solomani and Zhodani forms of
government show that a truly democratic interstellar confederation of large size
is certainly possible, even if neither fully fits that description itself.  But
the Imperium does need to work well enough that people are willing to believe
in it and fight for it for a millenium.

The Imperium has to enforce at least a few basic laws, or nobody will feel safe
stepping on a starship.  The wide-open merit-based nature of the Imperial civil
service will probably also have an effect on the system.  The bureaucracy will
include sophonts of all races, sexes, and cultures in the Imperium, and this
may help make things more honest.

I think Angus has hit on something important here, though.  The key reason that
Archduke Dulinor rebelled in 1116 was that he felt the Imperium wasn't doing
enough to live up to its' high ideals.  In a sense, it was the failure of the
Imperium to deal effectively with worlds like Endup and the failure of the Moot
to consider the possibility of a Vargr archduke becoming a Vargr emperor that
show that Dulinor had a point, and that brought on the Rebellion.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonn0015@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:40:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Hijacking Difficulties.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960219182920.490A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.
A couple of people have recently put forth the opinion that
hijacking a ship would be difficult because the crew could throw hijackers
around with grav fields, blast them out airlocks, etc.  I don't think
hijacking would be that difficult, you just have to do what hijackers have
always done: take hostages.  If the hijackers are in a room with guns
pointed at the heads of passengers, you can't throw the bad guys around
without hurting innocents.  Also, hijackers would rely on rapid attacks.
Two hijackers could simultaneously enter the bridge and engineering
compartments with a some explosives and before anyone could say "hey what are
you doing in here?!" the crew would be too mangled to do much.  Of
course, depending on level of security, it might be difficult to get into
these compartments (not to mention getting explosives aboard), but I think
a simple ruse could get you in on most sub merchants and such.

Charles.


<0> "As more dice are rolled, the empirical approaches the theoretical." <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca),   <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.    <0>
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.    <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html  <0>


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:02:17 -0600
From: "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:The Work-Week of the Future
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960220000217.00684ca8@pop.interaccess.com>

Just by seredipity, I came across this quote in the new issue of 'Wired':

"The world of the future will be an ever more demanding struggle against the
limitations of our intelligence, not a comfortable hammock in which we can
lie down to be waited upon by our robot slaves." - Norbert Wiener

It seemed somehow appropriate. Anecdotally, I haven't seen a decrease in the
average work week here in the USA. We in the software biz are continually
being squeezed by spiraling demands; something that a customer would have
been ecstatic to have in a month 10 years ago can now be done in two weeks.
The client, however, demands it in a week. Thus, the demands of consumers
always outstrips the ability of suppliers. Thus, everybody works a lot of
hours to make deadlines.

I personally think that this would be less of a problem if barriers were in
place that limited the speed of distribution for goods and services (e.g.
Traveller, all eras). In the Traveller universe, you can't demand *anything*
from another planet in less than a week, and usually that is very
optimistic. This means that suppliers have a larger "window" to get their
goods to market, and that demand has an inelastic "floor" for some goods.
This, to me, implies that Phil may be onto something, Mr. Wiener
notwithstanding. I don't think that 9 hours a week is reachable except for
some areas of industry (those that export to off-plant consumers more than
jump-1 or so away), but it makes sense to me that the less "planetary" and
the more "inter-planetary" your products are, the shorter the work week for
your employees. This is all off the top of my head, but maybe it makes a
little sense.

Thanks,
John A. King
jking @interaccess.com

"Scientists are Peeping Toms at the keyhole of eternity."
- Arthur Koestler


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 18:16:19 PST
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: Re: DOOMED starship deckplans
Message-ID: <9602200216.AA09889@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

Of the three game engines that are appropriate, only Doom is 2D. Dark Forces
allows overlapping rooms/polygons in one "level" as does the Marathon
engine.  Of the three, the Dark Forces engine is the best to use because
the game is on Macs as well as PCs, and supports overlapping structures.
Doom is also on both platforms, but doesn't support overlap, while Marathon
is Mac only (but has some really cool map editors available, sigh). I've
been looking at this possibility for a couple months now, and have settled
on MArathon for my own uses due to the utter lack of Dark Forces map editors
on the Mac side.

James Kundert <j.kundert@genie.geis.com>
              <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:32:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Angus McClellan
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9602191845.A19407-0100000@well>

I never thought that I'd find anyone holding a view of the Imperium as
dark as cynical as my own.  That was a real pleasure to read.  Do look me
up if you're in the San Francisco area.

--Glenn


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:49:23 -0500
From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 602
Message-ID: <199602200249.VAA21104@mars.superlink.net>


>Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:48:39 -0400
>From: Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Re: Imperial Cops
>Message-ID: <9602180248.AA11399@ lrmi.com>
>
>Les Howie
>peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
>
>>The bunch I created were real bad news to have after you.  I called them
>>SCIS (Special Criminal and (counter)Intelligence Services).
>
>Sound like all the worst features of the KGB and the Gestapo.  Any checks
>and balances?  How about local law enforcement, justice, etc?
>

Actually, I created these guys to *be* my checks and balances in my campaign
as well as provide a vehicle for adventures as patrons and occasionaly
opponents.  They were *never* PCs always NPCs.

As far as them being Gestapo or KGB.  No, more like a souped up FBI with
military intel (I know an oximoron) thrown in for good measure as well as
Green Berets. They are recruited from elite military units and the washout
rate is real high. They must be capable of operating totaly independant and
must be able to maintain a cover for long periods of time.  In fact,
historicly about 30% of them never get activated and retire.

Some PCs in my campaign  that got too good at being pirates found themselves
on the wrong end of a commando raid that was lead by one of these guys.

>And to Simon
>
>Can you please give me the number of the Dragon Magazine containing the
article
>on IBIS  ? I'll check it out ( I don't want to fly in the face of published
>material unless it doesn't make sense ).
>

"The Dragon #35 Vol IV No. 9 March 1980.
       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]
  _] "Those who fail to learn from histor                           _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:42:55 -0600
From: library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 602
Message-ID: <199602202340.NAA14154@babylon5.dss.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

In digest 602, ANGUS MCLELLAN said:
>Before the Plummerite pro-Imperial faction wades in to tell me what a
>lot of rubbish the above is, and how the Third Imperium was a warm,
>fuzzy, loving totalitarian dictatorship, please explain why all those
>despicable governments - Junidy, Vanejen, Endup, Lintl, Pavabid and
>many, many others - were allowed to remain in power when the Imperial
>forces could readily have removed them with minimal fuss. Remind me how

I have to admit (although being pro-Imperial myself), there are aspects of the
Third Imperium that are - shall we say - not very nice. The very fact that
assassination was seen as a legitimate path to the throne demonstrates this
fact. Indeed, ANY large organisation has its good and bad points (as Angus
showed thru eg's of our history).

The IMoJ is a good place to put those "bad elements" into a good story. Every
story needs a villian (my campaign uses Tukera ;-), and certain extra-legal
organisations can do the trick in the Imperium. As Angus noted, the Imperium
made many decisions of expediency; the main glue holding the place together
was that the Imperium is a _trade protectorate_. The primary High Justice
crimes are crimes against the *state* - all the stuff about "murder in Imperial
space is a crime" is really tacked on at the end. You can view this as a way of
preventing interstellar incidents (murder another planet's citizens while in
space and there will be hell to pay). It certainly was never intended to prevent
things which occur on a planet's surface - these are under the jurisdiction of
the planetary government.

(I was going to add some more scintillating dialogue but I've got to go!).

Use the MoJ as the "bad guys" of the 3rd Imp govt.
- Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
Library
Dept. of Social Security
Box 7788
Canberra Mail Centre ACT 2610


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:42:10 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Imperial Law article excerpts & commentary
Message-ID: <199602200442.AA07577@mail.crl.com>



The following are exerpts from my article "Imperial Law" from Challenge 50.
It has been trimmed for two reasons; one, it was fairly long to start
with, and two, GDW has the copyright on this one, so I'm making what I
believe to be fair use of excerpts of it.  It is still fairly long.
I appologize for that...

Remember, previous GDW statements indicate that Challenge material
is not necessarily 100% canon.  However, the majority of such material
has been treated as such, so it is probably safe to say that this is
the legal environment in the Third Imperium (right up to the middle
of the Civil War, basically... then things fell apart).

-george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

The origional text of the article is set off by leading > symbols.
Any additional commentary I have is without such leading characters.
Deleted sections are marked with [....].

>[....]
>UNDERLYING PRINCIPLES
>The principles underlying Imperial Law are mostly found in a single
>document: Rights, an edict issued by Emperor Cleon II in year 54 (his only
>act of note while emperor).  It was the culmination of analysis of previous
>systems of civil rights predating the Third Imperium that had been
>instituted by Cleon I upon the beginning of the Third Imperium.
>[....]
>"The rights below are allowed all citizens, in any situation
>not detrimental to the Imperium:
>1.  To communicate freely, in any situation or manner.
>2.  To be safe, secure, and free in life, profession,
>possessions, and travel.
>3.  To, in criminal proceedings: to have the right to fair and
>expedient trial, to counsel; to present evidence and witnesses
>as desired in their own defense; to fair time considerations for
>distance; to appeal to the Emperor or his representative
>decisions, in matters of fact and law.  To freedom from
>prosecutorial appeal of decisions of fact; to freedom from
>unreasonable or overly cruel punishments.
>4.  To take reasonable actions in defense own or others of
>life, health, or property.
>
>What does all this mean?  Criminal prosecution in the Third Imperium
>takes place at a trial, presided over by a judge (exception: nobles are
>allowed, but not required, to have a jury of six to twelve equal or higher
>ranking nobles) .  The defendant(s) must be allowed to have a lawer, though
>they can choose not to.  Unlike contemporary American law, there is no
>concept of 'suppressing evidence'.  Defendants may appeal decisions on both
>factual and legal grounds, to Imperial Nobility or designated judiciary.

The various rights are mostly important in that they frame the structure
of the enforcement activities by the Imperium.  Local worlds have been known
to infringe on these.

>LEVELS AND JURISDICTION OF LAWS
>Imperial Law is the law that is in effect throughout the Imperium.  It
>applies everywhere, from deep space to the middle of a jungle, and in some
>cases to areas outside the Imperium proper.  Imperial Laws are determined
>by the Emperor through his bureaucracy.
>Local Laws are any laws enacted by recognized planetary-level
>governments.  Local Laws are only enforceable on the planets surface ( or
>within a countries' boundaries on balkanized worlds), and up to the edge of
>the atmosphere (below Close Orbit).  They also don't apply on recognized
>extraterritorial areas, including Starports of rating C and above, Embassies
>of other worlds, and Imperial Government property and installations.
>The status of orbital and off-planet installations depends on the exact
>situation.  In general, the parent planet/countries laws apply, except to
>areas that are parts of a Starport.  Some installations are legally
>independent.  All off-planet installations that do follow local laws are
>required by Imperial Law to transmit their legal status as part of their
>signal ID beacon.   If they do not, then it is considered under Imperial Law
>only.  Also, all ships in flight are subject to Imperial Law only, and fall
>under the jurisdiction of the destination if in jump.  Ships in flight are the
>only instances where Imperial authorities will commonly enforce the
>Imperial Crime of Murder, for instance.  The jurisdiction is with the
>Subsector Courts in these cases.  (see below)

This is important... what law applies where makes a difference.


>     There are four categories of law in the Imperium. They are High Justice,
>Imperial, Recognized, and Local.
>
>High Justice:
>  The highest level of law is the High Justice criminal laws.  These are the
>most serious crimes, those crimes that are serious infractions against
>interstellar society as a whole.  Travellers who violate High Justice laws
>have to expect long and intense prosecution by all Imperial authorities,
>most often the Ministry of Justice (more later), though all Imperial
>Agencies are responsible for assisting in the apprehension of High Justice
>law violators.  Large monetary rewards are offered for the capture and/or
>death of violators, and large amounts of agents and other resources will be
>dedicated to apprehending the violators.  Local law enforcement agencies
>may well become involved also.
>  In several High Justice crimes, the convicted person can be sentenced to
>death.  Ministry of Justice Agents may use lethal force against resisting or
>fleeing High Justice law violation suspects whether or not the suspects are
>armed at the time or committed a technically 'Violent' High Justice Crime.
>Anyone, including average citizens, is authorized to apprehend a High
>Justice violator should they identify him.  In such a case, the suspect must
>however be immediately transferred to Imperial authorities (or local
>authorities if necessary).

Remember, the MOJ doesn't have to play nice.

>Imperial Law:
> Next highest are the Imperial Laws.  These less serious but interstellar
>scope crimes include piracy, interfering with the Xboat network, etc.
>Crimes aboard a starship in space are covered by Imperial Law.  >
>Recognized Law:
>   Below Imperial Laws are Recognized Laws.  These are crimes that the
>Imperial Government feels are best handled by local standards, but that are
>serious enough to warrant interstellar enforcement, i.e. suspects in
>Recognized crimes can be extradited back to the planet or locality of the
>crime to serve trial, whereas the Local Crimes (see below) are mild enough
>that extradition is not allowed.  Note that no Recognized Crimes are illegal
>by Imperial law; the local government has to make the law.  The Imperial
>government  merely allows extradition if the locals do chose to make it a
>law.  Courts in the Imperial Court System (the Planetary Courts) do have
>jurisdiction over Recognized crimes.  (see the Imperial Trial Procedure
>section below).
>    Manslaughter, Rape, and Smuggling are among Recognized Laws.
>
>Local Law:
>   Finally, there are Local laws.  These are anything that local governments
>wish to enact in the way of laws.  Local Laws are not  enforceable beyond a
>planets boundaries, according to the Imperial government.


>IMPERIAL LAW ENFORCEMENT
>    The primary agents of Imperial Law Enforcement are the Imperial
>Ministry of Justice Field Agents.  Alongside them are the Imperial Courts.
>    The Imperial Ministry of Justice (MOJ) is charged with enforcing
>Imperial Law within the Imperium.  They investigate and prosecute High
>Justice and Imperial crimes.  The MOJ usually places a minimum of one Field
>Agent per planet, with one additional agent per hundred thousand population.
>On Balkanized low-population worlds, some agents are responsible for
>multiple 'countries'.
>    The Ministry of Justice rank system closely aproximates that of the Law
>Enforcement service (from Character Generation rules).
>    The authority of Field Agents extends over the whole Imperium,
>regardless of where they are posted.  Few travel extensively, however (Most
>investigations off-planet are handled by the other locations Field Agents).
>They are authorized, in extreme cases, to pursue an investigation away from
>their field posting area (usually the one planet) without consulting their
>bosses.
>    There is also a rank below Field Agent; the Ministry of Justice Officer.
>They are empowered to enforce Imperial law in one specific area only; one
>planet, perhaps only at one starport.  MOJ Officers are found in varying
>levels at starports and installations around the Imperium; an A starport
>might have one officer per million population on-planet, fewer for smaller
>starports.  Not all starports do have MOJ officers assigned.
>    Both Field Agents and Officers have the following powers and
>responsibilities:
> * They may arrest persons suspected of violating Imperial Law
>Often a local planet will also allow them to arrest those violating local
>laws.
> * They may use deadly force in self defense, or to stop a fleeing violent
>crime suspect, and carry weapons at all times. (Weapons usually limited
>to handguns or the like, though, in the extreme, MOJ High Justice Arrest
>Teams usually have FGMP's and Battle Dress).

The "usually" above refers to during normal investegations and the like.
This isn't a law or even formal MOJ procedure except as the MOJ wants its
agents not to stand out like a sore thumb.  Every MOJ office usually has
an armory with (fill in the hi-tech-high-lethality-weapons-and-armor)
available in enough quantity for the local MOJ force to deal with an
equal number of rabid player characters.  Yes, that includes antiarmor
and antiaircraft missiles, heavy crew served weapons, etc. in offices
large enough to have enough people to be able to use them.  The MOJ sometimes
deals with *mean* people, and they don't have High Justice Arrest Teams
lying around on every world.  If possible, they'll use the Marines or
local military to back them up, but if necessary...

> * They may question individuals to gain information about a case; they
>can gather evidence, and obtain records that may have relevant
>information on crimes.  (Note that failing to assist a MOJ agent in his
>investigations is a Imperial Crime, though usually only prosecuted in
>intentional and serious cases).

Don't fail to cooperate with the nice MOJ agent.  Really.

> * They may Indict persons whom they have evidence have committed
>Imperial or High Justice crimes.  MOJ agents also may legally prosecute
>those indictments, but usually will let a specialized MOJ prosecutor
>handle an important case (there is about 1 MOJ prosecutor per 10 agents
>in the field; of not on-planet, at the subsector capital MOJ headquarters).
>
>[....]
>
>THE IMPERIAL JUDICIARY AND TRIAL SYSTEM
>
>The court system in the Imperium closely follows the political
>organization.  All legal judicial authority is derived from the Emperor; he
>has delegated it to his nobles, and they have the right to delegate it to
>courts of their choosing (almost all do; occasionally they may handle a case
>personally).  The court system is exactly derived from the Rank Nobles,
>those serving in governmental positions.
>
>The lowest level is the Local Court.  Local Courts are empowered by the
>local planetary government, and have initial jurisdiction over all Local
>Laws.  As they differ in nature and procedure from planet to planet, no
>details will be provided.
>Above the Local Courts are the Planetary courts.  Planetary Courts are
>the lowest level of 'Imperial' judiciary; they have appellate jurisdiction
>over all Local Law decisions when the appeal is of Imperial justice nature.
>They also have initial Jurisdiction over Recognized crimes; appeals of
>Recognized crime decisions are appealed up to the Subsector courts.  Larger
>planets with multiple levels of Rank Nobles present may have complex
>Planetary Courts; regardless of individual variation, they have the
>characteristics of Planetary Courts.
>The Subsector courts are responsible for appeals of Recognized crime
>prosecutions, and have initial jurisdiction over Imperial Crimes.  They are
>located at the subsector capital, and have significant Ministry of Justice
>administrative support, though the justices themselves are chosen by the
>subsector nobility.
>Above these are the Sector courts.  Sector courts have appellate
>jurisdiction over Imperial Law crimes, and initial jurisdiction for High
>Justice crimes.  They are organized similarly to Subsector courts.  Above
>them are, theoretically, Domain Courts and the Imperial Supreme Court, but
>few cases a year proceed to those levels.
>
>Imperial Court Procedure:
>    Imperial Court doctorine is considerably different than that of the
>modern-day United States.  The defendant has a right to a fair trial, a trial
>by his peers if he is a noble, and to have legal representation.  Current-day
>concepts such as suppression of evidence and admissibility are not
>followed.

Note these important differences from modern earth procedures.
The first is admissability.  If the evidence is there, it's admissable.
This makes justice in the Imperium a lot more effective and efficient.
Also prone to bending its own rules, but the MoJ tries hard not to
do so in minor cases.

>    There are three phases to any trial of Recognized, Imperial, or High
>Justice crimes.  First is the Verification Phase.  The verification phase
>serves to ensure that persons are not held for a crime when there is no
>evidence against them.  Next comes the Main Trial, and if the defendants are
>found guilty, Sentencing.
>    During the Verification phase, a defendant may apply for release on Bail.
>[....task deleted]
>
>Verification:
>The investigating authorities have a week (recognized crime), month
>(Imperial Crime), or six months (High Justice Crime) after the arrest, plus
>travel time if the court is at a different star system than the arresting
>site, to show to the satisfaction of an appropriate jurisdiction judge that
>there is enough evidence to try the accused.  The authorities may petition
>for more time where an investigation can be shown to require more time and
>that it has a reasonable chance of success.
>[....task deleted]
>
>The main body of the trial comes next, usually within 1D weeks.  The
>defense counsel may lengthen this if preparing the defense will take longer;
>[....task deleted]
>
>Main Trial:
>[....main trial roleplaying steps deleted]
>
>Appeals
>Appeals are made to higher courts, to reverse some aspect of the trial.
>The prosecution is allowed to appeal on legal grounds, but the defendant may
>appeal on legal or factual grounds.  In any case, the appeal is made to the
>court listed in the Courts section as having appellate jurisdiction in the
>case.  An appeal of an appeal continues up the ladder, and so on...
>An appeal is a two step process.  First, a higher court must agree to
>hear the appeal, then the appeal must be heard.
>[....task deleted]
>
>After succeeding at the above, the appeal is heard.  Evidence is
>reviewed, sometimes the defendants are transported to the court for a
>hearing, etc.
>[....tasks deleted]
>
>
>LAW IN THE SHATTERED IMPERIUM
>[....civil war status deleted]
>
>THE UNIVERSAL LAW PROFILE AND EXPLANATIONS
>
>ULP format:
>PiracyI8C-VUsually Violent
> (name)    (Type)(Enforcement)(Sentence)-tags notes
>
>Severity Index:
>The first character in the ULP is the severity level of the law; R for
>Recognized, I for Imperial, and H for High Justice.
>
>Enforcement Index:
>[....deleted to save space.  Larger # = enforced more vigorously]
>
>Sentence Index:
>The third character is the maximum Sentence Index; what types of
>sentence will be imposed upon those found guilty.
>The following are the sentences associated with the various SI values:
>The Jail term is required.  The judge (GM) has discretion over the fines.
>Fines as low as Cr10 are common as wrist-slaps.
>
>PIJail TermFine
>0No JailtimeTrivial fine (up to 100Cr)
>11 DayTrivial Fine
>21D DaysSmall fine (up to 500Cr, often below 100Cr)
>31 Week + 1D Days Small Fine
>41D3 weeksMedium Fine (1000Cr max)
>51D6 weeksMedium Fine
>61D3 monthsMedium Fine
>71D6 monthsMedium Fine
>86 +1D6 monthsLarge Fine (10KCr max)
>912 + 2D6 monthsLarge Fine
>A3 + 1D3 yearsLarge Fine
>B6 + 1D3 yearsLarge Fine
>C10 + 2D6 yearsLarge Fine
>DLife, parole possible
>ELife, no parole possible
>FLife, Death Penalty Possible
>
>More descriptive characters may be appended with a hyphen; these tags
>are -V [a Violent crime], -(V) [may be violent crime; depends on
>circumstances of the crime], -M [Military crime; Imperial Military agencies
>will become involved in the investigation and cleanup], -S [Mandatory
>sentence of maximum jailtime (but not fine) in SI range, sentence cannot be
>reduced by task roll]
>
>Crimes List:
>
>High Justice Crimes:
>Treason
>HAF-MS
>Special Case.  Initial Jurisdiction at Sector Court level.
>
>Manufacture of Prohibited Weapons
>HAF-M
>Nuclear weapons, Biologicals, etc. Some exceptions for licensed Co.s
>
>Possession of Prohibited Weapons
>HAD-M
>Possession Permits available for very rare exceptions
>
>Use of Prohibited Weaopns
>HAF-MV
>Calls for Death Penalty if intentional or mass homicide resulted
>
>Espionage
>HAF-M
>Only relating to 'Foreign Powers'
>
>Waging Illegal War
>HAF-VM
>Violating the 'Imperial Rules of War'
>
>Obstructing an Imperial Warrant Holder
>HAD-M
>He IS acting in the Emperors name...
>
>Imperial Crimes:
>Piracy [....]
>Space Vessel Theft [....]
>Great Assault [....]
>   Indiscriminate, Intentional large-scale attacks; esp with starship weapons,
>   or attempting thereof.  Fuzzy boundary between Waging Illegal War and
>   Great Assault, usually on the basis of intent (but not always).  Ref.
>   Discretion.
>Kidnapping [....]
>   Usually treated as a Recognized Crime
>Murder [....]
>   Usually treated as a Recognized Crime
>Counterfeiting [....]
>   Imperial Documents or Currency only
>Obstructing Imperial Justice [....]
>Killing an Imperial Agent [....]
>Assaulting an Imperial Agent [....]
>Interfering with the ISS Mail service [....]
>Possession / Transport of Prohibited Biologicals [....]
>  Can be more serious if they cause damage
>Conspiracy to Commit an Imperial Crime [....]
>
>    The Imperial Crimes of Murder, Kidnapping, etc. are usually prosecuted as
>a recognized crime instead.  The Imperial Govt. has sole jurisdiction over
>outer space, though, and in such cases is responsible for prosecutions.

I left a couple out, the most important ones being "Impersonating a Noble"
and "Impersonating a MOJ Officer"

>Recognized Crimes:
>Murder [....]
>Manslaughter [....]
>Rape [....]
>Counterfeiting [....]
>Great Theft [....] In excess of 100KCr
>Smuggling

Remember, that crimes *not* on the Recognized Crimes list are not going
to be enforcable over interstellar distances (at least not within the
legal system...).  There are a lot of things you can do on planets and
get away with if you leave.  But not everything...


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:45:00 +0000 (GMT)
From: Paajanen Jyrki JYP <jyrki.paajanen@ttgroup.fi>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: GG defending
Message-ID: <3129A6A3@ttmsm04>


Phil, you wrote in 600:
"Unfortunately, one of the first things, I can remember reading about this
was the TNS extracts in the FFW game. The first thing the Regina SDB's did
,when news of the Zhodani at Ruie arrived, was to boost at max G for the
system GG. Unless they were insane, it seems that it was standard procedure
to not only jump in w/o enough fuel to leave but also to proceed forthwith
to the local GG. So standard in fact that *all* the SDB's (six, I believe)
went to the GG! Now there *were* TankRons avail. in the FFW game & they came
in handy for fast moves, but were limited in numbers. I've never quite been
able to reconcile these "standard tactics" so I've just had to assume that
there must be some other factor/s, that've never come to light, that would
explain this."

At the time when the FFW started the Sector Fleet Admiral was Santanocheev,
who was incompetent fool. So I don't think that his orders could be taken as
sensibel 'standard Imperial tactics'. And we have to remember that Regina is
orbiting it's gas giant Prometheus. So those SDBs were quite close to MW.
At those times Regina was only at TL 10, so the way Regina was defended is
not the way high-tech worlds would be defended. BTW could somebody explain
how the Regina with TL10 was able to construct TL15 warships (Kinunir).

Jyrki Paajanen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 03:12:11 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GG defending
Message-ID: <01I1F5U7F8TK95UTJP@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 19-FEB-1996 23:52:06.13
To:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:
Subj:GG defending

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 01:46:46 -0500
From: Paajanen Jyrki JYP <jyrki.paajanen@ttgroup.fi>
Subject: GG defending


Phil, you wrote in 600:
"Unfortunately, one of the first things, I can remember reading about this
was the TNS extracts in the FFW game. The first thing the Regina SDB's did
,when news of the Zhodani at Ruie arrived, was to boost at max G for the
system GG. Unless they were insane, it seems that it was standard procedure
to not only jump in w/o enough fuel to leave but also to proceed forthwith
to the local GG. So standard in fact that *all* the SDB's (six, I believe)
went to the GG! Now there *were* TankRons avail. in the FFW game & they came
in handy for fast moves, but were limited in numbers. I've never quite been
able to reconcile these "standard tactics" so I've just had to assume that
there must be some other factor/s, that've never come to light, that would
explain this."

At the time when the FFW started the Sector Fleet Admiral was Santanocheev,
who was incompetent fool. So I don't think that his orders could be taken as
sensibel 'standard Imperial tactics'. And we have to remember that Regina is
orbiting it's gas giant Prometheus. So those SDBs were quite close to MW.
At those times Regina was only at TL 10, so the way Regina was defended is
not the way high-tech worlds would be defended. BTW could somebody explain
how the Regina with TL10 was able to construct TL15 warships (Kinunir).

Jyrki Paajanen
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Santanocheev wasn't present at Regina so I doubt that it was his orders.
It seems more likely that it was according to Norris's plans as Regina
was his home system. Also, in FFW & also at the time the TNE dispatch
came out, there was no provision for detailed systems so Regina orbitting
a GG was a later development. Also, in FFW, SDB's were impossible to avoid
& also only had 2 options when confronted by attackers, fight or flight.
>From what I've read it seems that the SOP is to enter a system, move to the
GG to refuel & then advance on the main world. In FFW this is all abstracted
into a single system-wide battle. For most of CT, which is when this stuff
came out, systems had no real detail, there was a mainworld & maybe a GG. The
"mainworld" might've been an asteroid belt too. There have been many threads
over the years concerning how ill-advised these tactics would be. This leaves
us with a typical Traveller dilemma. My preference is to accept the canon &
assume that some factors unknown to me are at work. I've seen this very thing
happen in real life & it seems to me to be the easiest solution here.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 604
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 605

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Work Hours by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  2) GG defense setup by "Ronald J. Bailey" <ab871@seorf.ohiou.edu>
  3) Re: Imperial Police by Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
  4) The Empress Wave, Baddies from the Core, etc.... by Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
  5) re: T-Plates by bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
  6) MY web page is (partially) back up! by peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
  7) Features in Software? by peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 05:01:09 -0900
From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Work Hours
Message-ID: <v01530500ad4f73497e1c@[137.229.100.74]>

With reguards to phils argument for shorter work weeks:

Obviously, phil, you haven't taken college courses lately. The requirements
for research materials for undergraduate work, according to my proffessors,
have become both more rigorous research, which takes roughly the same
amount of time as earlier works, and require access to higher tech aids, as
the requirements for 200 level papers at UAA for History explicitly require
use of computerized search tools in most cases.

As for work hours and religious/social factors, the allowance of women to
the industrial work force has had a major impact in western societies. As a
higher percentage of the population is now available for work outside the
home, demand for workers has dropped. Even the way unemployment figures are
calculated has changed since the 30's, by adding the women to the figures.

Since more people are working, fewer workers are required for the same
ammout of labor in the economy. And each is more productive, due to
technological changes. The advent of the Union also has had a limiting
effect upon work hours.

Also, the standard of living has continually risen. Not in the major jumps
of the past, but in minor (and in some cases, trivial) ways since the 70's;
it is now the common expectation to find all of the following in the
average household: a color TV, a videotape deck, a computer, an answering
machine, a microwave, and a coffee machine. In the early 70's, Color TV was
a luxury, videotapes were rare, and answering machines were possible, but
not common. Computers were just beginning to find their way into the home
market, aided by the game machines (Atari, Intellivision, Colecovision)
showing that computers made life better. And Digital watches have come a
LONG way. A time/date digital watch was expensive in the early 70's, they
now go for less than $5.00, are more rugged, and costlier to repair than
replace.

Another key factor is boredom. Most of my friends make certain to have
about 40-60 hours a week in regular activities, not due to need (the
difference between work and regular activities being taken by charitable or
volunteer work), but to keep busy and un-bored.

Of the 168 hours of the week, assume 8 per day in sleep (56/week), 2 on
personal care (14/week), and you have 98 hours available for other
activities. Most spend some 20 a week on TV (If I remember correctly), and
will probably try to keep busy for most of the rest.  So I figure that 40 a
week on work, provided that pays the bills, will probably be about right
for much of the future as full time work, as that allows some 30+ to be
spent on other activities, for fun or philanthropic nature. Work provides a
means of boredom avoidance.

Just as a side note, I found that when my shcool and work hours totalled
less than 40 hours per week, I found myself making work: doing intense
research for games, being active in philanthropic activities, etc. Same
with my friends. People need something to do. WOrk provides benefits of
material and lifestyle upgrades.

One other item of note: The US Navy keeps higher working hour schedules to
avoid boredom in the rather boring environment of ships, and organizes rec
activities to allow for the rest of the time available. (Naval Science 4,
USNA Press, ca 1980)

Human greed may keep the 30-50 hour work week as a good baseline;
travveller seems to make that assumption.

-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:          ANWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
HomePage:       http://orion.alaska.edu/~aswfh/index.html



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:11:27 -0500 (EST)
From: "Ronald J. Bailey" <ab871@seorf.ohiou.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: GG defense setup
Message-ID: <199602201611.LAA15367@ra.cs.ohiou.edu>

About the gas giant thread...

What would be the typical setup for defending a gas giant from enemy
fleets?   Would there be, like, patrolling squadrons, static bases, what?
--
Ronald J. Bailey-ab871@seorf.ohiou.edu SouthEast Ohio Regional FreeNet
"To infinity and beyond!"-Buzz Lightyear
"The Earth is DOOMED!  DOOMED, I tell you!  DOOMED, in case you didn't
hear me!"-Earthworm Jim


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:37:53 +0000
From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Imperial Police
Message-ID: <m0tov5r-0001N1C@kiel.netsurf.de>

First, I've to say that I really enjoyed all articles that answered my
little question. Especially the thoughts of Angus sound very reasonable.

Thinking about the issue I came up with the following idea:

A member an Inperial department of justice (IDoJ) is more a prosecutor or
inquisitor than a cop, spy or special agent. They will deal with planetary
governements not individual persons. It's their duty to keep the peace
between the member worlds of the empire and keep taxes and economy going.
However, they will also overview investigations where Imperial officials or
nobles are involved. Finnally they will combat interstellar piracy and other
interstellar crimes. (Perhaps they will have to deal with mega corporations.)

An Imperial high commissioner (as I would call them) will work alone (or
with only a small staff) and in public. He won't carry weapons or act on
himself. He's equipped with all authorities to get help from local
authorities. It's a crime not to support an Imperial high commissioner. If
needed, he can call the Imperial fleet that will execute his orders.  The
IDoJ is a non-millitary organisation directly responsible to the Imperator
and higher in hierachy as the Imperial navy or other millitary organisations.

Commissioners most often work from their desk. They'll probably be members
of the nobility. They overview all the administrative work that is needed to
keep the Imperium together. They will fight all internal threats to the
empire. Every government probably fears the visit of a high commissioner who
will check the governments loyality.

The IDoJ is distant comparable with the German Verfassungsschutz that will
protect our state and constitution, watching and investigating suspect
persons or organisations and collecting all kind of datas. As I know it has
no executive powers but uses the normal police departments for the "dirty work."

What do you think about this idea?
bye
--
Stefan Matthias Aust  //  ...come on, kiss the frog!
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/sma/


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:59:36 -0800
From: Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: The Empress Wave, Baddies from the Core, etc....
Message-ID: <12a0d5b0@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

There has been a fair amount of speculation about the Empress Wave of late and
what it might portend.  Even though Dave Nilsen announced it would _not_ be the
DGP "baddies," now that GDW is no longer at the helm, I'd like to see the
baddies be revised for use with the "Virus Era" background.

With a bit of work, the Primordials could be revived.  I never agreed with
Nilsen that the revelation of the Ancients and later the Primordials was a bad
idea.  Players enjoy the mysteries, but eventually they want resolutions.  And I
don't think it's a constant attempt at one-upsmanship.  There are infinite
mysteries to the universe to be discovered and it's short-sighted to say that
Traveller's proprietors must continually create precursors to the Ancients and
Primordials to make things interesting.

There's a fair amount of "canonical" background, including the World Builder's
Handbook adventure and "Knightfall."  The whole things would be even better if
the original creators of the idea came back, updated it for the Virus Era and
put it into effect.

Any thoughts?

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:02:38 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: re: T-Plates
Message-ID: <9602210002.AA29481@astro.ucla.edu>


William F. Hostman (anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu), a couple of issues ago, wrote
>T-Plates do not nessasarily violate newtonian physics.
>Since early T-Plates require that one be within 100 diameters of the planet
>to work, they are obviously using the planet as reaction mass, and using a
>field effect to do so; the CoM exists. They do not produce more thrust
>energy than they take (although they are close)

and

>Higher tech T-Plates simply have the ability to grab much weaker fields
>and thus use the whole system as reaction mass

>Above based upon MT Ref's, MT Ency., MT:SSOMv1

Thruster plates may not violate conservation of energy at low velocities;
they always will at sufficiently high velocities. The amount of energy a
mass gains for a given (small) delta-V is a function of velocity; the faster
it's going, the more energy it gains per delta-V. (Consider 2 kg accelrating
from 0 to 1 m/s; it gains 1 joule of energy. Going from 1 to 2 m/s it
gains 4-1=3 joules of energy. Going from 2 to 3 it gains 9-4=5 joules of
energy, etc. Unless power required for thruster plates/contragrav drives goes
up as their velocity increases (which opens up the question "velocity relative
to what?") they'll violate conservation of energy sooner or later, in some
(indeed, in any) reference frame.

Conventional reaction drives don't have this problem because (in the frame
in which the solar system is at rest and the spacecraft is moving rapidly)
their exhaust ends up moving *slower* than the spacecraft; it *loses* energy.
(for a rapidly travelling spacecraft, I mean.) Energy is conserved in all
frames of reference. With CG/thruster plates the "reaction mass"(planet) ends
up actualling *gaining* kinetic energy (albeit a completely negligible
amount.)

Reactionless drives break either conservation of energy or conservation of
momentum or both, which is why you can use thruster-plate lifeboats to
devastate planets.

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@astro.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:23:00 -0500
From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: MY web page is (partially) back up!
Message-ID: <199602210323.WAA22885@mars.superlink.net>

Check out http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb/trav/trav.html.


There has been added a report by Jo Jaquinta on starship construction.  Best
viewed with Netscape 2.0.  More stuff coming to be added later!

       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]
  _] "Those who fail to learn from histor                           _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:31:37 -0500
From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Features in Software?
Message-ID: <199602210331.WAA23547@mars.superlink.net>

I'm building (yet another) star system generator.  This one I'm pretty
pleased with so it stands a good chance of surviving to release.

What features would the Refs out there in (Mega)Traveller land like to see
in a star system generator?

This one that I'm writing is Windoze based (since that's what I have at
home) using the single document interface.

So far features that are being included:

                 + Generates only the detail wanted.
                 + Drill down to generate/view detail
                 + Map info stored in flat ascii file format

More features are being considered.

       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]
  _] "Those who fail to learn from histor                           _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 605
***************************
    TRAVELLER Digest 606

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 605 by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  3) Birds of a Feather ? by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
  4) Re: Imperial Police by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 605 by Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
  6) Re: TRAVELLER digest 605 by "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
  7) Technology & the Imperial Universe by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  8) Non RPG Real Virus Warning by fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  9) Imperia by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
 10) RE: non RPG Virus by fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
 11) A reply to Mr. McLellan by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 11:12:00 PST
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: tml <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Message-ID: <312B6F69@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>


 anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman) wrote

>Also, the standard of living has continually risen. Not in the major jumps
>of the past, but in minor (and in some cases, trivial) ways since the 70's;
>it is now the common expectation to find all of the following in the
>average household: a color TV, a videotape deck, a computer, an answering
>machine, a microwave, and a coffee machine. In the early 70's, Color TV was
>a luxury, videotapes were rare, and answering machines were possible, but
>not common. Computers were just beginning to find their way into the home
>market, aided by the game machines (Atari, Intellivision, Colecovision)
>showing that computers made life better. And Digital watches have come a
>LONG way. A time/date digital watch was expensive in the early 70's, they
>now go for less than $5.00, are more rugged, and costlier to repair than
>replace.

Forgive me for pointing out that the majority of the world's population
have none of these things.

In the same way in which the US (or the UK or Europe) are not representative
of living standards or work patterns in the late 20th century, so factors
such as
working hours, disposable income etc. will vary widely in the Traveller
universe.
Discussion has tended to presume an all embracing norm which doesn't
exist.  I would expect life for the majority of people on a TL15 rich planet
to be
very different to the life of the majority of people on a TL4 dirtball with
very few
natural resources.  Of course within each of those societies, there will be
huge variations in lifestyle.  I just wanted to point out the dangers of
assuming
that the dominant economy represents all.  I think that widely varying
set-ups should exist within Traveller - after all, that is part of what
gives the
game and its setting its charm and interest.

My 2 labour-hours worth (adjusted for local rates of exchange) ;-)

Iain...................................................iain.rowan@sunderland
.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 23:20:19 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 605
Message-ID: <199602211220.XAA15749@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
> Message-ID: <v01530500ad4f73497e1c@[137.229.100.74]>
>
> With reguards to phils argument for shorter work weeks:
>
> Obviously, phil, you haven't taken college courses lately. The requirements
> for research materials for undergraduate work, according to my proffessors,
> have become both more rigorous research, which takes roughly the same
> amount of time as earlier works, and require access to higher tech aids, as
> the requirements for 200 level papers at UAA for History explicitly require
> use of computerized search tools in most cases.

Nope. Haven't been (seriously) inside a Uni since 1976 ... and vowed once I'd
left I'd never return if I had any choice at all. So far I *have* had a choice.
However, as I sort of pointed out before, yep, agreed all the above re the
increased rigour of academic (even undergraduate) research ... but the advent
of Personal Computers has cut down one aspect of the workload *vastly*. When
I was writing stuff for Chivalry and Sorcery and Space Opera in the late 70's
and early 80's I did it either longhand, or typewritten ... and it took me
around half an hour to type a page (not counting all the screw it up and in the
bin "revisions"). If I made an error, the whole page had to be retyped from
scratch if it was at all serious. With computers, even my first one, an Apple
II (48k, 5.25" disk) allowed me to roughly halve that time, and did away
*completely* with the time wasted in rewrites and revisions ... probably half
of the time again. Thus, computers allowed a reduction to, say, 1/3rd of
what it took me originally to write anything ... and the way I used to do
essays, that would have been several days worth of work for each essay (this
was only a BA, nothing involving really serious effort like Engineering or
Science, say). Allowing for the fact that the level of reasearch required has
been shoved up somewhat, the use of computers has reduced the time required
in some respects considerably. Forex, recently I had cause to check out some
stuff at Fisher Library (Uni of Sydney, my alma mater) and used the Computer
Index system for the first time ... search by subject, author, keyword! When
I think of all the manual checking of the card catalog and then hitting the
shelves and stacks to see if the titles you found were relevant ... well, lets
say that a whole hell of a lot of time is saved there, too! Does it balance
out? Or is it easier/harder? I don't know ... but I suspect that its probably
more or less the same amount of work involved ... certainly ex-students of
mine who have stayed in touch (I teach High School) over the years haven't
complained of any excessive workload (and some of them were *very* average
academically speaking) ... though, of course, they don't have anything to
directly compare with any more than I do.

> As for work hours and religious/social factors, the allowance of women to
> the industrial work force has had a major impact in western societies. As a
> higher percentage of the population is now available for work outside the
> home, demand for workers has dropped. Even the way unemployment figures are
> calculated has changed since the 30's, by adding the women to the figures.

And the practise, at least locally, of "encouraging" kids to stay on longer
at High School ... mainly (to a cynical teacher such as myself) to keep them
off the dole! But even that can be manipulated ... we currently have, IIRC,
a 28% youth unemployment rate ... but that's only for the 18% of youth (IIRC)
who are actually not in education! Really its around 5% ... or around half of
what the whole population rate is, but it makes good election tactics to
talk about "28% unemployment".

> Since more people are working, fewer workers are required for the same
> ammout of labor in the economy. And each is more productive, due to
> technological changes. The advent of the Union also has had a limiting
> effect upon work hours.

Actually, Unions have been around a lot longer than the "recent" changes
brought about by the Industrial Revolution ... think Medieval Guilds and
even Roman equivalents thereof. They protected working conditions and
employment.

> Also, the standard of living has continually risen. Not in the major jumps
> of the past, but in minor (and in some cases, trivial) ways since the 70's;
> it is now the common expectation to find all of the following in the
> average household: a color TV, a videotape deck, a computer, an answering
> machine, a microwave, and a coffee machine. In the early 70's, Color TV was
> a luxury, videotapes were rare, and answering machines were possible, but
> not common. Computers were just beginning to find their way into the home
> market, aided by the game machines (Atari, Intellivision, Colecovision)
> showing that computers made life better. And Digital watches have come a
> LONG way. A time/date digital watch was expensive in the early 70's, they
> now go for less than $5.00, are more rugged, and costlier to repair than
> replace.

Exactly! Consider, then, how possession poor PCs in Traveller are! *Everything*
is far and away more expensive than there is any reason to believe that it
would be in an "advanced" future, and is far and away less advanced in and of
itself.

> Another key factor is boredom. Most of my friends make certain to have
> about 40-60 hours a week in regular activities, not due to need (the
> difference between work and regular activities being taken by charitable or
> volunteer work), but to keep busy and un-bored.

I did note, didn't I, that even with a 9 hour "working" week ... defined as
doing whatever was required to earn a living ... would mean that the workers
would have to redefine what *leisure* was. Our whole society is predicated on
people (or the vast majority of them) having a job ... how do we introduce
ourselves (often) ... "Hi, I'm Phil, and I'm a teacher". But need we assume
that the future will be the same? Need we assume that people will regard what
they do for a living as the important part of their lives? What will they
do otherwise? Your suggestions below are to the point ... but I'm sure that
there will be other thinks, and should these not be classed as "work" of a
sort as well? I suppose it all depends on how you classify *work*.

Why do "Travellers" travel in the game? Because it's a way to be alive and
involved? Quite possibly!

> Of the 168 hours of the week, assume 8 per day in sleep (56/week), 2 on
> personal care (14/week), and you have 98 hours available for other
> activities. Most spend some 20 a week on TV (If I remember correctly), and
> will probably try to keep busy for most of the rest.  So I figure that 40 a
> week on work, provided that pays the bills, will probably be about right
> for much of the future as full time work, as that allows some 30+ to be
> spent on other activities, for fun or philanthropic nature. Work provides a
> means of boredom avoidance.
>
> Just as a side note, I found that when my shcool and work hours totalled
> less than 40 hours per week, I found myself making work: doing intense
> research for games, being active in philanthropic activities, etc. Same
> with my friends. People need something to do. WOrk provides benefits of
> material and lifestyle upgrades.

I do more or less exactly the same sort of thing myself. But if I didn't have
to "work" more than 9 hours a week I would *still* have enough "work" to keep
me busy ... I just wouldn't be getting paid for it! And that's what I was
trying to get at with my previous comments.

Phil McGregor


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 21:13:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Birds of a Feather ?
Message-ID: <8BB24F9.140001A19E.uuout@almac.co.uk>


In article <199602191652.KAA10683@osh1.datasync.com>
fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker) writes Re: Imperial Law
>>From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (That's me folks !)
>>Dupes of Imperial and Regency propaganda, now's your chance to
>>recognise the truth !

>Spoken with the lust of a true Solomani.  Like all others of your breed
><sneer> you verbally attack our benevolent Empire.  You attempt to
>lower us to your inferior Solomani filth with your evil propaganda.
>Your words will not go without being heard, this is a free-speech
>forum.  You will likely find any true Imperial subjects to buy your
>Solomani Bag of Lies.
>Admit the truth, you Solomani are jealous of the glorious Imperium.
>You pathetic "Rule of Man" did nothing to help advancements in our
>universe, in fact you virtually caused the Long Night.  You can't deal
>with the fact that Imperial ways are better than your Solomani ways.
>And we proved it when we conquered Terra and defeated your foolish
>government.

An Imperial Dupe reveals the Nature of the Beast. "Who could possibly
criticize the One True Imperial Way save those racist Solomani ?", he
cries. The constant core of human belief - God hates splitters - reveals
itself starkly in this assumption.

History teaches us that the tyrannical USSR was the bitter foe of
Hitlerite Germany in ancient Solomani history; so the Last Imperium and
the Solomani Confederation - two sides of the same twisted coin - were
irreconcilable enemies. This enmity blinds only those who will not see.
The Imperium and the Solomani were alike in proving the banality of evil
- evil's myriad faces are all alike. President-for-Life Trinoch and
Maximum Leader Strephon headed equally contemptible regimes, both
dedicated to the enslavement of trillions of people. Why any sane person
would defend either is a deep mystery to this writer.

Like all tyrannies, the Imperium collapsed when the insulated ruling
elite, long since divorced from all reality, began to lose confidence in
the Mandate of Heaven which had hitherto under-pinned their rule. Just
as the frightful USSR collapsed on Old Earth when it's corrupt ruling
elite sought to liberalize it, so Strephon destroyed the Last Imperium
by seeking to allow the people to take control of a part of their
destiny. Dulinor of Ilelish may have fired the shots ended the Last
Imperium, but the attempted reforms of Tyrant Strephon, far too little
and much too late had heralded the end years before.

Weep for the suffering of trillions but shed not a single tear for the
passing of the Imperium.

Angus

Salus populi suprema lex est

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 02:24 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Imperial Police
Message-ID: <m0tpEXK-0002oLC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

re: Stefan Matthias's thoughts...

>A member an Inperial department of justice (IDoJ) is more a prosecutor or
>inquisitor than a cop, spy or special agent. They will deal with planetary
>governements not individual persons. It's their duty to keep the peace
>between the member worlds of the empire and keep taxes and economy going.
>However, they will also overview investigations where Imperial officials or
>Nobles are involved.

Good thought. This raises the MoJs level of interest to governments rahter than
individuals ( unless they're very important ).

Incidently, I think this thread has established the prior claim of the "Ministry
of Justice" rather than the "Department". Published Canon aside, Monarchies like
the Imperium have Ministries ( run by Ministers - England is a good example ),
while democracies, etc, have Departments ( run by Secretaries, Directors, etc -
the USA is a good example ).

>Finally they will combat interstellar piracy and other
>interstellar crimes. (Perhaps they will have to deal with mega corporations.)

I have my doubts about the validity of Piracy in this context. After all,
pirates are likely to be a local phenomenon, and I suspect that there will be
very few large scale, multi subsector piracy rings operating simply because of
the cost of transporting the booty around. I imagine that subsector Dukes would
be the appropriate authorities to deal with pirates because a) the pirates live
and work on their back doorsteps, b) pirates impact the stability of trade and
politics in their sphere of influence ( and this affects the tax take too ), and
c) they have the clout to call in whatever military forces are necessary to
clean them out. I don't think the Imperium would care if a few ships get
hijacked.

As for interstellar crimes, I tend to agree with the writer who pointed out the
fact that the Imperium will tollerate anything as long as it gets its share of
taxes, and retains overall control. The only thing the Imperial Authorities
would really care about would be issues of Sovereignty (ie: Imperial Control of
vassal sectors, subsectors, and worlds; and External relations with other races
and empires, etc, including securing the borders and waging war when required),
and the affairs and rights of the Imperial Nobility.

Dealing with Megacorporations is an issue worthy of some investigation since
they wield so much power in the Imperium. On the other hand, the Imperial
Family, and the Nobility hold substantial ( if not controlling ) interests in
most of the Mega Corporations. This doesn't mean that they know whats going on
however, anymore than any stockholder has full knowledge or control of the
activities of a company in which he owns shares. Maybe the Imperial Nobility
needs a powerful investigative organisation to keep an eye on their investments
?? Of course, Megacorporations would have their own ( very competant ) security
forces ( another reason for the Imperium to ignore piracy as a crime ). And if a
Megacorporation IS doing something which goes against Imperial policy ( like
perhaps trading illegally across the Imperial Border ) then it would take a very
powerful, well funded, and highly connected organisation to take them on. Border
patrol and interdiction could be strictly a Navy or Scout responsibility of
course.


I also agree with the concept of Bounty Hunters providing the main means of
returning criminals who have skipped off-planet/out-system. And only the worst
criminals would be pursued. This means mainly Thieves and Fraudsters rather than
murderers because it would cost a hell of a lot of money to send a Bounty Hunter
even one jump after a felon. You have the cost of a return middle passage for
starters, and then there are lots of expenses involved working on a world where
you're not a native trying to find someone who doesn't want to be found ( or who
may even have moved on - if they're worth bringing back [which costs at least
the price of a low berth] they'll probably have a lot of someone elses money to
spend getting away ).

This provides a lot of great gaming oportunities for referees however :
- The bounty hunter on the players trail, who's always just one step behind
- The hassle of proving to a bounty hunter that you're not the guy he wants
- Being caught in the crossfire as a hunter tries to bring in a felon
- Being hired by a hunter to help track a felon
- Being hired by a hunter to transport a felon back while he follows his partner
- Being hired by a felon to decoy a hunter
- etc.

And if this is a normal way of tracking felons, there's likely to be a Hunters
Aid organisation of some kind operating on any world with a class A,B,or C
starport in order to help facilitate this type of service ( for a fee, or as a
reciprocal service by the local government ? ).


>An Imperial High Commissioner (as I would call them) will work alone (or
>with only a small staff) and in public. He won't carry weapons or act on
>himself. He's equipped with all authorities to get help from local
>authorities. It's a crime not to support an Imperial High Commissioner. If
>needed, he can call the Imperial fleet that will execute his orders.
>The IDoJ is a non-millitary organisation directly responsible to the Imperator
>and higher in hierachy as the Imperial navy or other millitary organisations.

What's an Imperator ? I don't recognise the term.

>Commissioners most often work from their desk. They'll probably be members
>of the nobility. They overview all the administrative work that is needed to
>keep the Imperium together. They will fight all internal threats to the
>empire. Every government probably fears the visit of a high commissioner who
>will check the governments loyality.

Fair enough. This desribes a fairly high-level bureaucrat with lots of power in
the right places, but at the end of the day, he's only one guy. He'd be ok as a
senior administrator overseeing field agents perhaps. He'd make a great NPC, but
there needs to be a lot more than this if the Imperium's going to last.

>The IDoJ is distant comparable with the German Verfassungsschutz that will
>protect our state and constitution, watching and investigating suspect
>persons or organisations and collecting all kind of datas. As I know it has
>no executive powers but uses the normal police departments for the "dirty
>work."


I think a corps of roving undercover agents unknown to the Nobility would
provide better security to the Imperium. The "gestapo" analogy used in an
earlier message is perhaps a bit strong for gameplay ( unless you like it really
dark ) although it's probably quite accurate from a realism perspective.
However, a slightly less psychotic and sadistic organisation would be a
realistic choice for gameplay. Agents of the Special Patrol Group (not the best
name in the world) I mooted a few days ago would probably range in temperament
from patriotic good guys to jaded, corrupt, chip-on-the-shoulder, ego-centric
types (ok, the gestapo). Well no-ones perfect,  and power corrupts ( and you
need a lot of power to go up against Megacorporations or Imperial Nobles and
expect to live ).

Simon.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:16:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 605
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960221141119.26848A-100000@pasta>

> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:59:36 -0800
> From: Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: The Empress Wave, Baddies from the Core, etc....
> Message-ID: <12a0d5b0@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>
>
> There has been a fair amount of speculation about the Empress Wave of late and
> what it might portend.  Even though Dave Nilsen announced it would _not_ be 
the
> DGP "baddies," now that GDW is no longer at the helm, I'd like to see the
> baddies be revised for use with the "Virus Era" background.
>
> With a bit of work, the Primordials could be revived.  I never agreed with
> Nilsen that the revelation of the Ancients and later the Primordials was a bad
> idea.  Players enjoy the mysteries, but eventually they want resolutions.  
And I
> don't think it's a constant attempt at one-upsmanship.  There are infinite
> mysteries to the universe to be discovered and it's short-sighted to say that
> Traveller's proprietors must continually create precursors to the Ancients and
> Primordials to make things interesting.
>
> There's a fair amount of "canonical" background, including the World Builder's
> Handbook adventure and "Knightfall."  The whole things would be even better if
> the original creators of the idea came back, updated it for the Virus Era and
> put it into effect.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> --Chris

I think we should still hang onto the idea of the Empress wave. I mean,
we still dont know the *full* story. The only person who knows is Dave
Nilsen. The idea of the Primordials is a good one, but we havent really
given Dave's idea a *real* chance. Personally I'd wait and see what Marc
Miller does first; in the end he makes the call.

Cheers,

Mark.

------------------------------

Date:          Fri, 16 Feb 1996 20:43:43 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 605
Message-ID: <199602211551.IAA04530@goodguy.goodnet.com>

On 21 Feb 96 at 5:42, traveller@mpgn.com spewed:

> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:31:37 -0500
> From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
> To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Features in Software?
> Message-ID: <199602210331.WAA23547@mars.superlink.net>
>
> I'm building (yet another) star system generator.  This one I'm pretty
> pleased with so it stands a good chance of surviving to release.
>
> What features would the Refs out there in (Mega)Traveller land like to see
> in a star system generator?
> So far features that are being included:
>
>                  + Generates only the detail wanted.
>                  + Drill down to generate/view detail
>                  + Map info stored in flat ascii file format
>
How about a way to view/print subsector data...

Hard Times implementation might be nice...

Stu

**********************************************************
* "Nothing else in the world...not all the armies...is   *
*  so powerful as an idea whose time has come."          *
*  -Victor Hugo, from 'The Future of Man'                *
**********************************************************
Stuart L. Dollar                       sdollar@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:05:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: FarFuture@aol.com
Subject: Technology & the Imperial Universe
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960221154425.11892B-100000@atlas.sheridanc.on.ca>


Dear Marc Miller:

As you may be aware, the technological background of Traveller is in
jeporady of being seriously invaliaded by the current pase of
technology.  Standard Traveller campaigns take little notice of
cyberware, genetic engineering, and nanotechnology, all of which is
becoming quite important.  More importantly, there is very little
recoginition of the implications of these technologies in the Traveller
universe.

I am aware of the fact that Traveller was originally based on 1970's
sci-fi. Also, I am aware that to make a full update of the Traveller
universe would mean a serious reworking of almost all aspects of
Traveller history and technology.  I am aware that the current
understanding of Traveller technology is quite enjoyable, and open to
adventuring: the same might not be said for a "fully updated" form of
Traveller.

(As an example, right now Europe can implant tiny electronic devices in
cattle that allows them to be tracked from orbit.  Also, certain forms of
totalitarianism becomes nearly impossible to corrupt and overthrow: read
the recent book _Drakon_ by S.M Stirling for an example of a seriously
high-tech form of racial supramacy.

Of course, technology need not always support the state: if everyone is
born with a built-in IQ of 250 and routine access to hand-held, nanite-based
replicators, the State is going to have a very rough time controlling
them...)

Finally, I know that simply because you have updated Travelelr once
doesn't meant that you won't have to update it again, causing the same
probelms that Traveller's mutiple rulesets create. (Never mind Virus, and
the OFFICAL death of the Imperium.)

I hope that you will consider the possibility of "fully updating"
Traveller, to take into account all these new possibilities available.
If you choose not to, fine, but at least create a viable, interesting
explaniation why we don't have immortal nobles, or why every Imperial
system doesn't have multiple terraformed worlds, or why
nanotechnology is so rare 3700 years after it's discovery.

Please note that I'm crossposting this to the Traveller Mailing List, for
comment's.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:38:09 -0600
From: fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Non RPG Real Virus Warning
Message-ID: <199602212138.PAA09750@osh1.datasync.com>

I received this message on 2-21-96 from a friend of mine that works at NASA
Stennis center.   Thought everyone might be interested:


>Paul,
>   Thought you need to know this.  I was told to take it very serious.
>
>----
>
>     *********************Forwarded Message****************************
>
>     There is a computer  virus that is being sent across the Internet. If
>     you receive an e-mail message with the subject line "Good Times", DO
>     NOT read the message, DELETE  it immediately.  Please read the
>     messages below.
>
>     Some miscreant is sending e-mail under the title "good times"
>     nation-wide. If you get anything  like this, DON'T DOWN LOAD THE FILE!
>     It has a virus that rewrites your hard drive, obliterating anything on
>     it. Please be careful and forward this mail to anyone you care about--I
>     have.
>
>     *********************Forwarded Message****************************
>
>     WARNING!!!!!!!!!: INTERNET VIRUS
>
>
>     The FCC released a warning last Wednesday  concerning  a matter  of
>     major importance to any regular user of the InterNet.  Apparently, a
>     new computer virus has been engineered by a user of America Online
>     that is unparalleled in its destructive capability.  Other, more
>     well-known viruses such as Stoned, Airwolf, and Michaelangelo pale in
>     comparison to the prospects of this newest creation by a warped
>     mentality.
>
>     What makes this virus so terrifying, said the FCC, is the fact that no
>     program needs to be exchanged for a new computer to be infected.  It
>     can be spread through the existing e-mail systems of the InterNet.
>     Once a computer is infected, one of several things can happen.  If the
>     computer contains a hard drive, that will most likely be destroyed.
>     If the program is not stopped, the computer's processor will be placed
>     in an nth-complexity infinite binary loop - which can severely damage
>     the processor if left running that way too long.  Unfortunately, most
>     novice computer users will not realize what is happening until it is
>     far too late.
>
>     Luckily, there  is one sure means  of detecting what is now known
>     as the "Good Times" virus.  It always travels to new computers the
>     same way in a text e-mail message with the subject line reading
>     simply "Good Times".
>
>     Avoiding infection is easy once the file has been received - not
>     reading it.  The act of loading the file into the mail server's ASCII
>     buffer causes the "Good Times" mainline program to initialize  and
>     execute.
>
>     The program is highly intelligent - it will send copies of itself to
>     everyone whose e-mail address is contained in a received-mail file or
>     a sent-mail file, if it can find one.  It will then proceed to trash
>     the computer it is running on.
>
>     The bottom line here is - if you receive a file with the subject line
>     "Good Times", delete  it immediately!    Do not read it!     Rest
>     assured that whoever's name was on the "From:" line was surely stuck
>     by the virus.
>
>
>


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 19:48:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Imperia
Message-ID: <8BB34A4.140001A231.uuout@almac.co.uk>


Steven Bonneville's <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu> comments on Dulinor the
Idealist led me to think about how and why the Imperium might have lost
sight of those ideals. I'll apologise in advance for over-reliance on
analogy hereafter.

Like Rome the Imperium is militarily successful and expanding under the
Principiate (the Lentuli dynasty), and under pressure under the Dominate
(note the absence of any major military victories (*1) under the
Alkhalikoi). Early Emperors enjoy long and stable reigns (genetically
Vilani Lentuli Emperors live roughly twice as long as the Terran-
descended Alkhalikoi (*2)). The Principiate favours a proactive policy
of economic development (*3), the Dominate favouring the military over
the civilian economy does not.

Since Arbellatra ascended the Iridium Throne solely as a result of
military power, it seems likely that she would be mainly responsible for
the post-Civil War nature of the Imperial military. A noticeable feature
of the Dominate military is the general ennoblement of the senior ranks
(*4), which inevitably ensures the future militarisation of the Imperial
aristocracy (*5). Further note that the Alkhalikoi established the X-
Boat news management system (*6), no doubt as a another measure to
ensure that no-one else could follow Arbellatra's example.

While the Lentuli exercised direct rule over the Empire, the Alkhalikoi
Empress Margaret I established the Solomani Sphere as an abdication of
Imperial control. In granting the Sphere self-rule, Margaret laid the
roots of the ruinous Rim War, a humiliating check for the supposedly
invincible Imperial forces. After Margaret the Imperium carried out it's
disastrous experiment with psycho-history, the details of which suggest
an elite increasingly distanced from the masses. With the Imperial
Guard's overthrow of Styryx, supposedly a result of that Emperor's
incompetence (*7) a crisis is obviously in the making.

When the last Alkhalikoi Emperor, Strephon the Dreamer seeks to reform
the Imperium and appoints the idealistic Dulinor of Ilelish (*8), the
die is cast. Either Dulinor and Strephon will begin to succeed, in which
case it seems quite possible that Strephon will go the way of Nicholle
or Styryx, or they will fail (as happened) and Dulinor will take matters
into his own hands.

And if Strephon had been removed by one means or other, I suppose that
one of Varian or Margaret (and not Ciencia Iphigenia or Lucan) would
have succeeded him "by popular acclamation". (*9)

Anyone like to expand on this, demolish it or whatever ?

Angus

************************************************************************
Notes

(*1) However the Lentuli basically ceased expanding after the unsuccess-
ful and bloody Julian Wars. They did succeed in quelling the Ilelish
Revolt of the 5th century with ease. The Alkhalikoi Emperors presided
over a catalogue of defeats in which number I would include the Solomani
Rim War. Even the trumpeted victories of the Fifth Frontier War are
relatively minor affairs and do not restore the pre-Frontier Wars status
quo ante. As I recall, DGP's Vilani & Vargr suggests increasing trouble
even in the years before the Rebellion defending the coreward frontier
(Vland sector Library Data ?). See MT Imperial Encyclopedia (cited as
MTIE), Chronology of the Imperium, pp6-7 for an outline.

(*2) See the Emperor's list. MTIE, pp9-11 (& also Library Data A-M).

(*3) See the description of the Ilelish Revolt in the MT Rebellion
Sourcebook which implies a proactive economic development policy like
the RIDP existed at the time of the revolt. Note also that the Lentuli
policies achieved nearly TL14, whereas the Alkhalikoi presided over
hardly any advances. See MT Rebellion Sourcebook (cited as MTRSB),
Dulinor, pp46-47 and source cited (*6) below.

(*4) See CT/High Guard/MT, Character Generation, passim for the case of
Naval officers.

(*5) Since the the nobility did not intervene in the Civil War and
maintained the civil government leaving the military to fight it out
amongst themselves, it seems improbable that the ante-bellum nobility
could have been as militarised as afterwards. Note especially the large
numbers of senior nobles who are known to have served in the military in
the period immediately before the Rebellion. All of this suggests an
increasing militarisation of the nobility and civil government, removing
any clear division between these arms of the state as existed at the
time of the Civil War. See MTIE, Library Data: Civil War (pp20-21) and
sources cited there.

(*6) See MT Referee's Companion, Techonology, p34 for table showing
Imperial TL at various dates.

(*7) While sources (e.g. TD9, MTIE Emperor's List) suggest that Styryx
was incompetent it isn't necessarily true. Note that under Gavin's rule
the Imperium fails to defeat the Solomani. Perhaps there is further
information on this in Invasion: Earth, regrettably I don't have it.

(*8) A reading of Survival Margin suggests that Dulinor was exception-
ally naive, witness the Professor K. and President S. affairs, Survival
Margin, passim.

(*9) Well, that's what I think. Iphigenia was too much a chip off the
old block and Lucan (*) too likely to be another energetic reformer.
Varian was a 'waster' (a characterisation based on the fact that he was
dossing round the Palace with his floozy when shot by Ilelish agents)
and thus easily manipulated and Margaret would just tinker at the edges
with reform.

(*) Lucan, a reformer ? Yes. He certainly wasn't the paranoid maniac
that he was made out to be. At least not paranoid. Most of the plots
against him were all too real. And there is no evidence except for
Windhook's very dubious testimony to support the charge of fratricide. I
suspect Wondhook was a SolSec agent and assassin just as Lucan claimed -
why else run away to Corridor, the very farthest part of the Empire from
the Confederation unless to cover SolSec's tracks ? For Windhook's story
see MTRSB, Two Stories, pp8-9.

************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:59:41 -0600
From: fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: non RPG Virus
Message-ID: <199602212259.QAA12155@osh1.datasync.com>

May I have your attention please!!

<uproarious laughter slowly subsides>

Thank You.  It appears I fell prey to Computer Virus joke #52.  The previous
message about the Internet Virus "Good Times" was a joke.  (In very poor
humor I might add <sigh>.)

I was duped.  Sorry if you didn't know, I honestly didn't know.  If you knew
I hope you enjoyed seeing me suffer.  I had a small (tiny, miniscule) laugh
at it myself.

And now Back to Traveller!!!!

Paul   {tiger}

"54-40 or Fight!"  - TBWSK


P.S. - Joke or no joke I will not read any messages labeled "Good Times", so
please don't send them.  <grin>


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:17:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: A reply to Mr. McLellan
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960221163355.11892F@atlas.sheridanc.on.ca>


From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
> To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Disintegrators
> Message-ID: <8BB0357.1400019EE3.uuout@almac.co.uk>
>
>
>
> Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca> writes
> Subject: Disintergraters, FF&S Style?
>
> >1) Has anyone here tried to set up a flow-chart to build a
> >disintergrator,  FF&S style?
> >I really, really need to build a starship armed with TL 16
> >disintergrators...
>
> Someone already suggested the beefed up nuclear damper as a dis-
> integrator. A second option is a super-particle accelerator firing
> Bosons or Magnetic Monopoles, either of which (based on my very sketchy
> knowledge of the subject) will induce proton decay when they strike a
> target. I'd imagine that information on the energy levels needed to
> create these exotic particles ought to be available in particle physics
> textbooks.

Hmmm.  The ideas sound good, but unfortunately my knowledge of even basic
physics is pitiful, (putting it kindly).  That's why I'd rather the more
compotent member's of this list to take a crack of it.

And yes, disintergrater technology does start at TL17+.  I stand corrected.

>
> >2) How would a TL 16 jumpdrive be built?  The standard jumpdrive used
> >fusion power, but at TL 16+, antimatter power becomes available.
>
> Isn't that TL17+ for MAMA power plants ?

Sorry, got my Tech levels mashed again.

<snip>

> IIRC, MT suggested that fuel usage for J-Drives went down at TL17+ (4x
> volume at TL17, 3x, 2x, 1x, 0.5x etc). But they still used hydrogen
> fuel.

Groan.

> And isn't it amazing that <<super-accurate>> FFS has no scale
> efficiencies whatsoever, whereas klunky old MT did have. Not to mention
> the fact that I can buy TL13ish batteries by post. Gripe, gripe. I think
> I might be turning into Phil McGregor *-).
>
> Angus

I haven't used MT rules in ages, but yes, it's quite amazing.

And now, to the juicy part...

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 96 23:09:00 +0100
> From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Imperial Law (Very Long)
> Message-ID: <8BB056D.1400019F1A.uuout@almac.co.uk>
>
>
> I'm not kidding, this is a long article. If it offends anyone's dearly
> held beliefs, good. A bit controversy never hurt. Well, not unless
> you're on one of those kooky law level zero worlds when it might result
> in a few thousand fatalities, decades of mayhem and the destruction of
> planetary civilization or whatever passed for it.

I suspect that PC's just LOVE these worlds!  The more mayhem, the better!
Then again,law level zero cultures probably have a savagely hard view of
honour/religious codes, to compensate for the very small amount of
government control.

> I can recollect reading several articles in JTAS/TD/Challenge over the
> years about law and policing in the Imperium and now I've seen some bits
> and bobs on the TML. Regrettably none of the foregoing have struck me as
> remotely plausible. The Third Imperium was the ultimate in laissez-faire
> governments where planets could wage bloody civil wars; oppress all,
> some or none of the people on political, racist or religious grounds;
> whatever, the Imperium never cared, just so long as the credits kept
> rolling in and the railways (sorry, X-Boat routes) ran on time.

Oh, come on McLellan!  You weigh a vast mass of published information on
the Imperium at one hand, and the idea of the Laissez-faire Imperium at
the other, and you decide to dismiss the published information!

> Now, we are asked to believe that an Imperial Government content to
> allow and ofttimes support extremely nasty dictatorships, anti-alien
> pogroms and assorted other unpleasantness would be concerned about
> little events (on a relative scale) like murder and rape.

Does the Imperium tolerate extremely nasty dictatorships?
    YES, SIR!
Does the Imperium tolerate anti-alien pogroms?
    NO, SIR!
   (Well, maybe - if you can show/tell me where such anti-alien pogroms
    are published in the Traveller canon.  This would go under "Murder is
    forbidden" part of Imperial law, established under Cleon)
Does the Imperium tolerate other assorted unpleasentness?
    YES, SIR!

> Not a hope
> unless the victim is an Imperial somebody, which is to say Noble, or a
> member of the Imperial military or bureaucracy or someone with a great
> deal of political influence or cold hard cash.  If the Imperial Govern-
> ment acquiesced in the Government of Endup it certainly didn't give a
> damn about the little people anywhere else in the Empire.

Does the Imperium care about the little people?
   NO, SIR!
Why not?
   THE IMPERIUM IS A TRADE/MILITARY FEDERATION, SIR!

That is, it's a federation of self-governing worlds, with interstellar
affairs governed by a noble elite.  The "Little People" is under the
preview of the local government, not the Imperium.

Only outside the domain of the local government does Imperial Law
'kick-in', so to speak.

Mr. McLellan is quite correct to point out the faults of a very libertarian,
laissez-faire autocratic interstellar government.  However, he
underestimates the effects of non-military forces, like trade and
political influence.

For example, let's take the Third Reich, in control of the New Germany
system.  They decide to gas the local Jewish population, but the Imperium
forbids it as sentients cannot be killed.  So the Nazi's oppress them
instead.

The subsector press takes note of their plight, and creates a hubbub: local
nobles place pressure on the Baron in charge of New Germany
to shape up the local government.  Also, a few trade sanctions are put in
place, which are quite hateful to a pro-expansionary government like the
Reich.   Eventually, a deal is reached: the Jews are given some unwanted
badlands to inhabit on New Germany, and in return trade is restored.

[No, this is not the best possible option, but it's the most likely.
It's certainly more likely than the Imperium just standing by and letting
the Jews die, if for no other reason than bad press for the local subsector
nobility, who - in accordance with the Imperial Honour Code, still in
force in Strephon's era - have to at least appear to protect the lives of
their subjects.]

Of course, this senario can be challanged in a number of ways.  If New
Germany was a high-pop TL F system, rather than a low-pop TL 5, I'm sorry,
but those Jews are dead.  The Imperium will weigh the consequences of
pissing off a powerful world rather than letting 6 million people die,
and will let the Jews die.  (In real life, no one declares war on another
nation because of a mere local atrocity.)

>
> And just think for a moment on the difficulties of even defining murder,
> a regularly suggested example of the sort of crime which IMoJ might be
> concerned with, in such a variegated culture as the Imperium.

Is the Imperium as varigated as claimed?  Sorry, Mr. McLellan, put that's
simply untrue - if you prefer the New Era viewpoint, anyways.  Imperial
culture is stated to be influenced by standard JudeaoChristian norms in
HIver & Itklur, and the cultures of the Regency and the Coalition - areas
as far apart as you please - both operate as democracies, using Western
norms.  Claims to the contrary, there is a single Imperial culture,
essentually that of 20th century Solomani.

(I seem to remember an article that noted that Imperial Anglic has hardly
changed from 20th Century English, and that's why most of Imperial
culture resembled that of Western Europe/US just before contact with the
Vilani.

Moreover, there are two "Supercultures" in the Imperium, the Solomani and
the Vilani.  They would also tend to bond together the Imperium as one
single unit, and make possible a single judicial system.  Finally, note the
"Domaincultures", forming just before the Rebellion: the Denebi culture,
revivals of the Vilani and Sylean cultures, the Daibei, Antares, etc.
Laws on a world in one culture would "make some sense" to another world in
the same general area.  [Like 20th century Alaska and 20th century England,
rather than 20th century America and 4th century America.]

> The laws
> of planet A say that abortion is murder; planet B has a tradition of
> compulsory euthanasia; planet C holds that dueling is an entirely
> acceptable way to solve arguments; a government on planet D considers
> Droyne/Vargr/whoever to be unpersons and allows citizen to shoot them on
> sight; planet E looks kindly on the crime passionelle &c.

<Murder part snipped>

The Imperium would define murder as unlawful killing of an organic
sentient. Does the Imperium define the unborn as sentient?  Who knows?
But this isn't going to affect everyday forms of killing.

Does the Imperium allow the killing of Vargr simply because they are
Vargr?  Nope: even if it's lawful according to the local government, it
isn't lawful according to Imperial Law, and the Imperial lawcodes is the
*Minimum* law levels within the Imperium.

Even The Regency Sourcebook noted that the Imperium was rather
remarkably tolerant of nonhumans: I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't
past of the never-published Honour Codes of the nobility.  Also, remember
that Archduke Brzk was *surprised* at the racism against his bid for the
Irridium Throne: this suggest that you had to dig very hard to find
racism in Imperial culture.

<snip>

> Were the Imperium to attempt to define the meaning of murder as a
> criminal act it would be all but impossible, and
> this applies equally to the Late-C20th-Middle-Class-US-centric lists of
> other crimes that are usually presented for our edification in this
> regard.

Nope, again wrong.  Remember that the Imperium DOES share a single
culture, as noted previously.  And yes, that culture is remarkably close
to that of the 20th century West.

What, you don't like that?  Well, you can built YOUR Imperium to any
culture that you like - that has nothing to do with the published, canon
Imperium.  Hey, it's your campaign - not GDW's, not TML's, and certainly
not Alvin Plummers' !!

<snipped>

> I guess that average Tsolyani (*)
> would be as incomprehensible to us as the Imperials would be. Arguments
> for the Yanks in Space zeitgeist on the basis of the Americanization of
> Earth via Hollywood culture are easily demolished by the case of
> supposedly Americanized Japan, which is as just as alien as anywhere
> else.

Of course not - if we were really trying to build a 1000-year-old
spacefaring culture, set in the 57th century!

However, not even Dave Neilson was trying to do that (see the back of
Hiver and Ihthur, were he sneers at "earnestly building the real future").
Moreover, the Imperium was meant as a "anyone can play here" environment,
and was never properly thought out.  As people wrote material for the
Imperium, their writings naturally (if lazily) assumed that the Imperium
was a lot like the 20th century.

Building a Real Imperial Culture is WORK - and neither Marc Miller nor
Dave Neilson nor Lorean Wiseman ever put in the sweat equity to build it.

> So, in view of all this, if the <<brownshirt zampolit thugs>> of IMoJ
> were unconcerned with murders - unless of Nobles or Imperial officials -
> and like crimes, what did they actually do ?

Once again, see what I previously wrote about Imperial culture and murders.

> For the Imperial Government, the continuance of the Imperial
> Government and it's trappings appears to have been the major - if not
> indeed only concern of the apparatus of state, a classical
> self-perpetuating military regime with the Zhunastu's and their
> successors as a long series of hereditary Maximum Leaders.

Hey, if the system worked for over a thousand years, why complain?

> So IMoJ were most likely not an interstellar FBI/
> Interpol dedicated to fighting crime, they would be closer to an inter-
> stellar Gestapo dedicated to stamping out treason, sedition, forged
> credits and sundry other crimes against the state (as defined by the
> just and merciful Imperial Government of course), together with the very
> occasional bit of real police work

Sorry, an interstellar Gestapo is simply impossible, due merely to travel
times and the incredible numbers of people this Gestapo is supposedly
trying to control.  Not even SolSec ever really got their business
together: the closest thing to a proper Gestapo has got to be the
Zhodani Thought Police.

Moreover, this Gestapo is simply unnecessary.  First, the Imperium is
hardly a goverment occuping hostile territory, but the legitimate successor
state of over 6,000 years of interstellar rule.  Secondly, the Imperium
has no need for ideological uniformity - remember, even the Regency
Sourcebook notes the Imperium's commitment to cultural *diversity*.

Finally, you're contradicting yourself: how can the Imperium be both
absolutely lawless and completely repressive at the same time?
Lawlessness can't be repressive, unless you have a powerful, starspanning
repressive religion to make the laws.  And any facistic nation you care
to name - Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Pol Pot's Cambodia - most
certainly had laws, just evil and loathesome ones (looked at from a
Western JudeoChristian perspective, anyways).

> Now, you could argue that Lucan's IMoJ and Dulinor's equivalent were not
> representative of the organisation in the Good Old Days. And you might
> be right, although J. Edgar Hoover's FBI was busy ruining the lives of
> so-called subversives at around the same time that it was being publicly
> lauded as a great crime fighting organisation, and this in a supposed
> democracy. So, how much worse could one expect even from a generally
> well-intentioned bunch of secret policeman, in an unrepresentative,
> unaccountable autocracy like the Imperium ?

Ah, now we have a better attack on the Imperium on the last sentence.
The question is, is the Imperium an unaccountable autocracy?

It is most definitely an autocracy.

But it is most an *accountable* autocracy.

But whose holding it accoutnable?
   THE PEOPLE, of course!
But.. but... there isn't any voting!

Voting isn't the only way to hold a government accountable for it's
actions, Mr. McLullan!  The typical labourer in Elizabethian England was
much more free from government rules and regulations that someone in
modern England.  Please, at least read the history books before insisting
that all autocracy's are, by definition, evil!

> If you want to know what IMoJ was really like, don't look at Imperial
> propaganda (which is to say almost everything ever published for
> Traveller).

Again, all previously published material except material that you like is
dismissed.  Do I get to argue the way you do, allowing only evidence that
supports my opinion?

> After all, the Nazis would present the downright evil
> Gestapo as a tough but fair and necessary force to track down enemies of
> the people, so with the Imperium and the reptilian IMoJ. Since IMoJ
> fulfilled the same role in the Imperium that SolSec did in the Solomani
> Confederation, read what the Empire's propaganda machine had to say
> about SolSec - secret agents, omnipresent sneaking informers, murder
> squads, overthrowing uncooperative governments, and other assorted
> nastiness. Now you know how the Imperial Ministry of Justice worked in
> practice.

Does the Imperium use informers?
   They'd better!  However, not many - most of the information
   the Imperium would want is available via any decent interstellar
   press, so informers in the Imperium would be just about as useful as
   informers in the United States - in almost all cases, a waste of tax
   money.

Does the Imperium use murder squads?  Hmmm... I'd say yes.  The Imperium
   is an autocracy: if the nobles rule that said criminal is to be killed on
   sight, then said criminal will be killed on sight.  Period.

   You seem to imply that this would be a secret, dasterly action.
   Highly unlikely: remember, interstellar court's are all run by nobles,
   so it's almost certainly a matter of public record.  Indeed, it would
   HELP the Imperium top put it on the public record, so local bounty
   hunters and law level zero nations can pitch in and end this threat to
   the Imperium!

> So, if criminal characters don't have to fear IMoJ (unless they are
> would-be rebels or have done something to upset the Imperial apple cart
> or someone with real political clout), who is going to bring them to
> justice for robbing the unimportant and influence-free First Planetary
> Bank of Hornswoggle ? [If it was owned by Hortalez IMoJ would be on the
> trail right away]. Well, if the Government doesn't supply justice, it's
> going to be a job for private enterprise. After all, you can't always
> rely on extradition treaties between governments on one world, let alone
> on different ones.

The above paragraph is certainly correct.  Actually, they *could* wait
for the Imperium to act, but the Imperial bureaucrasy is slow and
massive.  Much more efficent to just hire a few folk to Take Care of the
Problem...

(Similar reasons exist for the Starmercs.  Again, you could wait for the
local Imperial Navy to detail a detatchment, but you can get faster
results by getting starmercs - almost all of whom have connections with
local naval squadrons...)

> Instead of having to high tail it out of the system one step ahead of
> the police, it'll be bounty hunters on their trail instead. (Hell, it
> gets more like the Wild West every day - more bloody Yanks in Space !).

Hey, thay's what I keep telling you!  The Imperium IS the 20th century
West with jump drive!  Now, why do you finally see the light now, but
refuse to admit that 20th century Yanks in space would outlaw murder
*everywhere* in the Imperium?

> And while the police might exercise some restraint in catching
> criminals, Bounty Hunters Unlimited will be more concerned about it's
> bottom line than any putative rights the perps might think they should
> have. Now isn't that a lot less fun for the characters than being chased
> by the local version of the Keystone Cops ? And those who have offended
> the powerful and face the power of IMoJ and the armed forces sont vrai-
> ment dans la merde jusqu'aux les oreilles, les pauvres gars.

Sorry, my French is nonexistant.  And Slow Imperial Bureaucracy is a
better reason for bounty hunters that Evil Imperial Government - much
more consistent with published facts, for example.

> The IISS-SB appear to be of limited interest (and utility) and smacks
> more of letting Scout characters play spooks than anything else. IRIS we
> should ignore as a very unfortunate mistake. Their appearance puzzled me
> as much as it puzzled Strephon (and I've got the relevant issues of
> Challenge with the word variant at the top of those pages !).

Never heard of them myself - THAT oughta tell you how little Traveller
material I have.

> Other branches of the Imperial Government might have some form of
> investigative branch, especially the revenue-raising arm of the state
> since the Imperial machine won't run without hard cash - pas d'argent,
> pas de Suisses. It doesn't seem really likely that the Imperial Revenue
> Service will wheel out it's Arakoine class strike cruisers to collect
> taxes from non-paying planets, but no doubt they will have some spook or
> police-like arm. So, the characters may have to flee someday from a
> relentless pursuit by armed agents of the IRS over unpayed taxes on that
> big lottery win.

Imperial Revenue Service... cute :)

> Before the Plummerite pro-Imperial faction wades in to tell me what a
> lot of rubbish the above is, and how the Third Imperium was a warm,
> fuzzy, loving totalitarian dictatorship, please explain why all those

Well, it's certainly rubbish, but *entertaining* rubbish!

> despicable governments - Junidy, Vanejen, Endup, Lintl, Pavabid and
> many, many others - were allowed to remain in power when the Imperial
> forces could readily have removed them with minimal fuss.

*Sigh*

If the Imperium brought down governments as easily as you wish, the
Imperium *would* be the Evil Empire you so desperately want.  But the
Imperium *does* believe in worlds determining their own fate, rather
than having their destiny imposed from above.  Therefore, it usually
wouldn't just destroy nations simply because it doesn't like their policies!

Moreover, remember that the Second Imperium (aka the Rule of Man) was as
interfering and as 'democratic' as you want, destroying Vilani society to
create it's own vision of a Democratic Universe.  *It* barely lasted 400
years.  The Third Imperium merely learned from their failure, and lasted
almost 3 times as long before being destroyed by nobles like Dulinor yelling
"Democracy Now!".

Oh, if Dulinor only decided to slowly "seed" democratic institutions like
the British, rather than go revolutionary like Napoleonic French....

> Remind me how often the people were consulted on Imperial policy,

Never - offically.

Unoffically?  Well, you you really thing that the Imperium could have
lasted 1100 years without the support of it's citizens?  Of COURSE it
took into consideration the needs of the citizenry!  The imperium didn't
died because of a massive revolt against Unjust Laws of the Evil Imperium,
but because the noble Archduke Dulinor believed that nonnoble Imperials
should have a larger say in government, and chose to kill the Emperor to
make his point!

> how
> they weren't treated like lab rats in grandiose psychohistorical
> experiments, needlessly geneered into weird and useless forms, et cetera.

Tell me, has ANY government EVER had the perfect, spotless morality you
demand fromn the Third Imperium?  Man, the Imperium is supposed to be a
fairly decent interstellar government, not Heaven on Earth!

> Even Norris's Regency is a state driven by political expediency and the
> love of the status quo, since the Regency Marines could have extermin-
> ated any and all forces at the disposal of the Ward of Vision in fifteen
> minutes flat, thus liberating Endup/Lucifer without untold deaths and
> years of unneeded suffering. Partisans of the Regency as a democratic
> government have a good deal of furious rationalization to do. Dupes of
> Imperial and Regency propaganda, now's your chance to recognise the
> truth !

Truth?  Perhaps a self-deluded version of it.  Maybe it IS true, in the
Imperium you are gaming in - in that case, more power to you.  However,
your entertaining post has not the slightest connection to anything in
the Offical Imperium.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 606
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 607

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) A) New Germany B) Imperial cops: Empty Quarter by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  2) RE: TRAVELLER digest 604 by "Greg O'Sullivan, Deakin University ITS" <gjo@brt.deakin.edu.au>
  3) Imperia response... by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  4) Law and Justice in the Imperium by "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
  5) Gushemege Sector Web Site by David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>
  6) Re: [T603] Noblesse Oblige, Cyberpunk, and the US by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  7) Re: Stuart L. Dollars desire for Subsector View/Print by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  8) Primordials/Empress Wave by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
  9) CG and Orbital mechanics by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
 10) Space survival technology... by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:37:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: A) New Germany B) Imperial cops: Empty Quarter
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960221192308.24216B-100000@atlas.sheridanc.on.ca>


First, in my reply to Mr. McLullan (sorry if I mispelled your name), I
said that the Imperium would permit a high-pop, TL F, high-pop New German
Reich to kill of the Jews.

Sorry, I take that back.  If evidence is produced that the Imperium world
allow this - say, a Traveller News Service article saying that the
Imperium let this happen, or a published adventure about such a
circumstance in the United Imperium - then I will agree that such a thing
is possible.

Otherwise, I am simply wrong, as such a slaughter would be against the
essentually 20th century mores of the Imperium.  (As I described in my
previous post).  Sorry, Mr. McLullan - but I just NEED to be consistant!

--------------------

In my design for the Empty Quarter, I've been planing to create a
six-subsector police force.  Since I have previously established that the
Imperium DOES have a single, Judeo-Christian morality (See Hiver &
Ikthur, Regency Sourcebook), and since the Offical Imperium isn't
an Evil Empire (See almost everything published by GDW or anyone else,
and exclude posting by Mr McLullan), such an police force is necesary,
and probably "standard equipment" for most Sector Dukes.

I open the floor to suggestions regarding this police force.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and..."
"Oh, shut up already!"
                               - Strephon and Norris, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:43:08 +1000
From: "Greg O'Sullivan, Deakin University ITS" <gjo@brt.deakin.edu.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER digest 604
Message-ID: <0099E4A3.66260420.30644@vax1.ccs.deakin.edu.au>

>
>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 18:16:19 PST
>From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
>Subject: Re: DOOMED starship deckplans
>
>Of the three game engines that are appropriate, only Doom is 2D. Dark Forces
>allows overlapping rooms/polygons in one "level" as does the Marathon
>engine.  Of the three, the Dark Forces engine is the best to use because
>the game is on Macs as well as PCs, and supports overlapping structures.
>Doom is also on both platforms, but doesn't support overlap, while Marathon
>is Mac only (but has some really cool map editors available, sigh). I've
>been looking at this possibility for a couple months now, and have settled
>on MArathon for my own uses due to the utter lack of Dark Forces map editors
>on the Mac side.

I think the Looking Glass Technologies 3D engine used in "System Shock"
is much better,
but I've never heard of any map editors for it. It would be kind of
interesting to use a networked DOOM style game to resolve combat, the Ref
could drive a NPC. You would need a system to let you model Traveller weapons
and armour systems, and some way to handicap characters that have no
skills with particular weapons (Make aim shakier if you don't have
the requisite skill?). It would be awkward lugging PCs (or Macs) around to
setup a game though.
But how to model skills like tactics?
The player could have more tactical skill than their character
is entitled to :).

Greg O'Sullivan
(gjo@brt.deakin.edu.au)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:41:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Imperia response...
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960221210035.3259A-100000@atlas.sheridanc.on.ca>


From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
>
> Steven Bonneville's <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu> comments on Dulinor the
> Idealist led me to think about how and why the Imperium might have lost
> sight of those ideals. I'll apologise in advance for over-reliance on
> analogy hereafter.

Hey, the more historical analogies, the better!

> Like Rome the Imperium is militarily successful and expanding under the
<comparison between the Imperium and Rome snipped>

Personally, I like this: my own version has the Zhoasto/Lentuli dynasty
as "Medici nobility" oriented to economic growth, with the Alkhalikoi
dynasty as "Military nobility" oriented to military might.  Still, your
view here has merit.

On the "Loss of the Mandate from Heaven": this feels right-on, using
MegaTraveller and New Era material.  Democracy suddenly became all the
rage, *among the nobility*. (See Dulinor and Norris, and their desire to
impose democracy from the top-down).  This simply did not exist in the
Classic universe, and the Imperial nobility there was depicted as
confident and stable.  As they say, choose which roleplaying field you
like best.

> Since Arbellatra ascended the Iridium Throne solely as a result of

<snipped stuff that sound's OK>

> While the Lentuli exercised direct rule over the Empire, the Alkhalikoi
> Empress Margaret I established the Solomani Sphere as an abdication of
> Imperial control. In granting the Sphere self-rule, Margaret laid the
> roots of the ruinous Rim War, a humiliating check for the supposedly
> invincible Imperial forces.

AMEN!

> After Margaret the Imperium carried out it's
> disastrous experiment with psycho-history, the details of which suggest
> an elite increasingly distanced from the masses. With the Imperial
> Guard's overthrow of Styryx, supposedly a result of that Emperor's
> incompetence (*7) a crisis is obviously in the making.

Ahh!  Well, not necessarily Doomsday, but Bad Things Becomes Possible...
However, nowhere here was a hint of the territorial fractionalism that
marked the Rebellion.  If it was just a bunch of nobles bashing each
others head's in for the Irridium Throne, no problem.  But the Rebellion
developed into a paraNationialistic revolution, with every Domain looking
out for number one.  In a Virusless universe, you'd get a bunch of major
nations - each about 1-2 sectors in size - and a whole score of minor
nations by 1200.

> When the last Alkhalikoi Emperor, Strephon the Dreamer seeks to reform

A bitter tag: if you are following the Offical Timeline, however, it's
justified.

<snip>

> Anyone like to expand on this, demolish it or whatever ?

Well, I like it - if you actually *want* a Rabid Imperialist to agree
with you...

<snip>

> Revolt of the 5th century with ease. The Alkhalikoi Emperors presided
> over a catalogue of defeats in which number I would include the Solomani
> Rim War. Even the trumpeted victories of the Fifth Frontier War are
> relatively minor affairs and do not restore the pre-Frontier Wars status
> quo ante.

Looks like the truth to me.  The Alkhalikoi Dynasty was largely that of
stability, with signs of a slow decline.

> (*3) See the description of the Ilelish Revolt in the MT Rebellion
> Sourcebook which implies a proactive economic development policy like
> the RIDP existed at the time of the revolt. Note also that the Lentuli
> policies achieved nearly TL14, whereas the Alkhalikoi presided over
> hardly any advances. See MT Rebellion Sourcebook (cited as MTRSB),
> Dulinor, pp46-47 and source cited (*6) below.

Worthwile notes.  You slander the Alkhalikoi dyansty a bit with the tech
level business, though.  The Imperium from  0 to 600 rose from TL 12 to
TL 14: The Imperium from 600 to 1100 rose from TL 14 to TL 15, and was
just approaching TL 16 when the Rebellion broke.  Not THAT much of a
difference...

<snip>


> Note especially the large numbers of senior nobles who are known to
> have served in the military in
> the period immediately before the Rebellion. All of this suggests an
> increasing militarisation of the nobility and civil government, removing
> any clear division between these arms of the state as existed at the
> time of the Civil War. See MTIE, Library Data: Civil War (pp20-21) and
> sources cited there.

Bloddy right.  Also, consider the information in the Rebellion
Sourcebook, where it speaks of the frayed chains of command in the
subsector/sector level.

Of course, this is not *necessarily* a signal of decline: the Romans
operated quite nicely with a mess of a government, as they has a very
strong culture among the Ruling Elite.

> (*7) While sources (e.g. TD9, MTIE Emperor's List) suggest that Styryx
> was incompetent it isn't necessarily true. Note that under Gavin's rule
> the Imperium fails to defeat the Solomani. Perhaps there is further
> information on this in Invasion: Earth, regrettably I don't have it.

Is Stryryx incompetent?  Hey, is possible, and without contraditing
evidense I can only agree.

Did Gavin fail to defeat the Solomani?  Hmmm, I'd say yes.  Imperial
war aims were the reconquest of the *entire* Solomani Sphere: it didn't
happen.  They *did* reconquer Terra, and had to be satisfied with this
lesser substitute.

> (*8) A reading of Survival Margin suggests that Dulinor was exception-
> ally naive, witness the Professor K. and President S. affairs, Survival
> Margin, passim.

Hey, maybe.  He certainly didn't thing his plans through!
A more harsher judgement should be given to Strephon: he had decades of
expeience governing as Emperor at the time when he appointed Dulinor as
Archduke.  That he should make such a poor choice is astounding!

[ProImperials like me - who left the Offical Imperium at about 1100 - are
free to ignore Dulinor, of course.]

> (*) Lucan, a reformer ? Yes. He certainly wasn't the paranoid maniac
> that he was made out to be.

The probem then is, what were the policies he would have established to
reform the Imperium?  Give me more!

> At least not paranoid. Most of the plots
> against him were all too real. And there is no evidence except for
> Windhook's very dubious testimony to support the charge of fratricide.

Perhaps.  Anyone cares to carefully review Lucan's testimony in _Rebellion_?

> I suspect Wondhook was a SolSec agent and assassin just as Lucan claimed -
> why else run away to Corridor, the very farthest part of the Empire from
> the Confederation unless to cover SolSec's tracks ? For Windhook's story
> see MTRSB, Two Stories, pp8-9.

Had Wondhook made a beeline for the Solomani Rim, you'd be crowing
about how Wondhook - after completing his mission - was simply heading
back to his handlers as ordered.

Still, continue your posts - they ARE getting better, and more closely
adhering to Traveller Canon.  Also, I like the wild spins on Traveller
history, as they promote creativity.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 22:35:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Law and Justice in the Imperium
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9602212253.A23819-0100000@well>

Sorry to weigh in so late with my thoughts on law in the Imperium, but my
legal practice has been cutting into my Traveller time.

To my friends at HIWG:  this thread has been developing on the Traveller
mailing list, and I believe that it is of some interest to us as well, so
I am cross-posting here.

I disagree with Mr. Herbert's position, see George William Herbert, Law in
the Imperium, 50 Challenge 22 (May/June 1991), for two reasons:  It has
the Imperium caring far too much about individuals and it has the Imperium
inserting itself too deeply into local affairs.  For example, the article
states: "The MOJ usually places a minimum of one field agent per planet,
with one additional agent per 100,000 population."  Id. at 23, col. 3:
That's just unworkable.

The political economy of the Imperium determines its legal systems or
systems.  That economy has the Imperium guaranteeing local autonomy,
security from extra-Imperial threats, and some security from
intra-Imperial but extra-star system threats (see Imperial Rules of War).
("Local" or "world" here refers to a member state of the Imperium, whether
a nation on a balkanized world, a single planet, a star system, or the
Vegan Autonomous District.) In addition, the Imperium guarantees that
business, especially megacorporations, will be able to conduct
interstellar trade free from piracy both free-lance and governmental.
Hence the Imperial Navy and the Ministry of Standards, which sets (in
association with trade organizations), inter alia, starship container
sizes, starport berthing and other facilities, starship safety and
engineering standards, communications protocols, etc., all of which are
supposed to facilitate commerce.

The Imperium thus not only has no reason not to care about individuals and
individual rights, but actually has strong motivation not to -- if it
interferes in local affairs (like the U.S. federal government does when it
brings or authorizes civil rights prosecutions or lawsuits, which
Herbert's article suggests that the Imperium does), it violates its
guarantee of local autonomy.

In some situations, the Imperium will interfere with local autonomy, but
only when a threat to Imperial or regional security is manifest.  For this
reason, the Imperium basically ignores whatever transpires in member
states:  rape, murder, denial of vote, mandatory voting, denial of habeas
corpus, failure to wear clothes in public, wearing clothes in public,
destruction of property, theft, abuse of authority, breach of fiduciary
duty, adultery, whatever -- the Imperium leaves it to local star systems
to deal with.  If the sophonts living there don't like it, they have
essentially political, options:  using the local political process for
change; overthrowing the local order by force and violence; emigrating;
and hiring outsiders to help with one of the above.  The last category
might interest the Imperium from time to time, because it affects the
Imperium's guarantee of some security from extra-local threats.  The
Imperium tends to discourage the development of strong regional (i.e.,
multi-system) movements that might threaten it, but that isn't a matter of
law as much as politics.

Now Imperial law itself -- the law in effect at Imperial installations and
in space between star systems -- is a different matter.  It is designed to
facilitate interstellar commerce.  It is largely regulatory, as indicated
in the brief discussion of the Ministry of Standards.

Imperial law does include a number of criminal laws, which are not too
different from the prohibitions on acts mala in se that the Terran
conquerors brought with them into the Ziru Sirka thousands of years ago.
So for example violence except in defense of self or others or when
authorized by the government is a crime, and "violence" is construed
broadly enough to include, e.g., detention of a sophont.  Theft,
embezzlement, fraud, and the like are bad for business and are also
Imperial crimes.  The Imperial Criminal Code also prohibits crimes against
the Imperium -- such as treason, insurrection, and espionage.  The
Imperium may prosecute for crimes against the Imperium without regard to
where the crimes took place.  Thus members of a conspiracy to overthrow
the archduke that involved recruiting mercenaries in the Aslan Hierate and
making cash payments in a bar on an Imperial member state could all be
prosecuted for treason as long as they could be brought into an Imperial
Judicial Court.

Imperial law also includes numerous civil law provisions, which are more
important to the day to day life of NPCs (if not PCs) than any criminal
laws.  For example, the Imperial Commercial Code sets out the rules for
the purchase, sale, hypothecation, and insurance of goods in interstellar
trade.  The Imperial Admiralty Code contains the rules for registration,
ownership, and operation of starships.  The Imperial Rules of Judicial
Procedure set out the rules lawyers must follow when pursuing cases in
Imperial Judicial Courts.  The Imperial Naval and Military Code governs
the conduct of Imperial naval and army personnel and marines.  An
interesting effect of the presence of the various Imperial codes and rules
is their adoption by many member states as local law.  In this way, the
Imperium is subtly -- and probably unintentionally -- undermining the
diversity and local autonomy of its members.

The Imperium does not maintain a police force per se.  Enforcement of
Imperial law is left to the executives in charge of those places where
Imperial law applies:  Captains of starships, directors of research
stations, and Sky Port Authority Executive Directors call on their
security departments for law enforcement.  Crimes not implicating a noble
or Imperial security are dealt with on site, with the executive sitting as
chief judge of a panel and counsel representing both sides presenting the
case.  Appeal is to the local Imperial Judicial Court.

The Ministry of Justice Special Branch is the Imperial secret police, and
is charged with enforcing the laws against crimes against the Imperium.
This is largely a matter of counter intelligence work.  The MoJ also
provides prosecutors for crimes against the Imperium, and advises the
Emperor and Moot on issues relating to crime and social order, based on
its ongoing research and monitoring.

The Imperial Judicial Courts (not to be confused with the Imperial Court
at Capital) are a system of courts that hear civil cases arising under
Imperial law, cases involving crimes against the Imperium, and appeals of
criminal cases arising under Imperial law at Imperial installations.

Each subsector has an Imperial Judicial Court, which may have several
judges.  The judges are recommended by the dukes and archdukes to the
Emperor (actually to a selection committee that recommends them to the
Emperor, but the committee is the Emperor's agent), who appoints them with
the advice, but without regard to the consent, of the Moot.  Judges are
Imperial nobles, either granted rank for their tenure or already holding
rank.  They serve at the pleasure of the Emperor.  The Ministry of
Justice's Courts Branch officially handles judicial administration, but
actually the Imperial Judicial Courts depend on their host dukes for
almost everything.  For this reason, they do not hear cases involving the
duke of the subsector in which they sit, nor of his or her relatives.
Appeal is to a panel of senior Imperial Judges from within the subsector,
then to the Archduke, then to the Imperial Court.  (The Emperor may
theoretically hear cases as the highest judge in the realm, but has never
done so.  Rather, the Emperor assigns a panel of senior judges to sit at
judicial appeals at the Imperial Court.)

Bear in mind that this structure is grafted onto a Vilani sensibility that
values cooperation and mediation.  Most commercial disputes -- even
between megacorporations with their mega law firms -- are mediated.  Most
crimes are mediated, leading to a contract between victim and perpetrator
for restitution and apology.  I've devoted a lot of space to the
structured parts of the system, but they lend themselves to it.

One final point is the "system" of manorial courts.  Each enfoeffed noble
has virtually complete power within his or her fief, including maintaining
whatever legal and judicial structure is desired.

Thank you for your attention. Your comments are as always appreciated.

--Glenn

Glenn M. Goffin
Attorney-at-Lawtelephone  (510) 527-9797
1970 Broadway, 12th Floortelecopier (510) 763-7222
Oakland, California  94612email      sudet@well.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:23:32 GMT
From: David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Gushemege Sector Web Site
Message-ID: <3126d42f.804266@post.demon.co.uk>

Announcing the Gushemege Web Site at:

http://www.ftech.net/~innocom/traveler

I have now uploaded all HIWG documents dealing with Gushemege Sector
to my web site at the address above. All are in .txt format at
present. A couple of my own collections of advenrure nuggets are also
there.

I have been thinking about how best to develop the site from here.
Rather than just creating HTML versions of the HDs I think moving to
an encycolpedic/gazateer would be best, with clickable subsector maps,
but I'd be interested in anybody elses opinions. I would also like to
extend the "surrounding sectors" map at the site to include all of
known space with clickable links to sector sites where they are known.
Has anybody else got this in hand?

Finally I'm busy learning Javascript at the moment so you may see some
Java applets for UPP, UWP generation, and maybe Java versions of some
of my old DOS programs.

Hope you enjoy the site and any comments welcome.

David
( Gushemege Sector Analyst )
---------------------------------------------------------------------
David Burden, Birmingham, UK
Home: http://www.ftech.net/~innocom  Email: david@innocom.demon.co.uk
Work: http://www.sts.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 23:18:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T603] Noblesse Oblige, Cyberpunk, and the US
Message-ID: <8BB2576.010006B88B.uuout@execnet.com>


T::>Yes, but there are consequences if the wealth is *not* shared. Consequences
 ::>that cannot be ignored ... remember the "let them eat cake" incident? I'm
 ::>sure Marie Antoinette's spriritual heirs do! Without trying deliberately to
 ::>tread on any toes here, I recently heard a very interesting argument from
 ::>an American historian (or was it an economist ... or an economic historian?
 ::>I don't have the source handy) who argued that the US was working itself 
into
 ::>big trouble because its ruling class (and he included the wealthy as well as
 ::>the powerful in this category) had convinced themselves that they were "just
 ::>folks", and that they had no special responsibilities towards those they 
rule.
 ::>That is, "I've got a million $ through 'hard work' (inherited most of it or
 ::>otherwise was 'assisted' by elective office or the 'old boys network') so 
why
 ::>should *I* pay taxes to support welfare recipients ... they're obviously 
lazy
 ::>bums who could make a million *if* they'd only try" (vastly simplifying 
things
 ::>of course!) ... and forgetting something that he suggested European ruling
 ::>classes seem not to have (and he included ruling classes of primarily 
european
 ::>ex-colonies like Canada, Oz and Kiwiland), the idea of "noblesse oblige". In
 ::>other word, you get all the bennies of being top dog, but there's a price to
 ::>pay ... call it charity, call it unemployment benefits, call it socialism; 
it
 ::>doesn't matter, as long as you take care of the mythical "ordinary man".

 I _have_ to respond to this - it looks at one admittedly valid
 point against us, without looking at the whole picture.  The
 comparatively recent "hard right" that American social and
 political attitudes have taken is not due to an unwillingness to
 help those less fortunate than us - it is due to an unwillingness
 to keep giving and giving and giving and then be told that we're
 scum for wanting to keep some for ourselves, and being told that
 these people, _some_ (not all) of whom are perfectly capable of
 working _if_ they wanted to, have a _right_ to sponge off the
 rest of us.  We also object to the bloated bureaucracies that
 constantly mismanage these "entitlements".

 Most people have no objection to unemployment benefits; we tend to
 view them as _insurance_ - and I don't think that there's a state
 in the country that doesn't have restrictions similar in principle
 to New York State - you must have worked for some specified
 portion of the prior year; the benefits stop after some smaller
 portion of the year; the benefit amount is keyed to the salary of
 the most recent job.  In NY, you work for a year, and get six
 months of benefits at half your last salary, to a limit of $350
 per week (or at least those were the numbers when I last applied,
 three years ago).

 Most people don't have an objection \per se\ to programs like Food
 Stamps or AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) - we
 object to having no controls on those programs, so that recipients
 can casually buy lobster and filet and soda and potato chips and
 pretzels and Swiss and French chocolate, while the taxpayers
 shopping in the same supermarket have to choose whether to buy a
 roast for one day or chicken cutlets for two days, and maybe we'll
 get the Hershey bars next week.  Worse, these people get the
 change from their food stamps in _cash_ - so that after buying the
 pretzels, they can go into the liquor store around the corner and
 buy scotch.

 Based on your post, I'd suggest that the recipient classes in your
 part of the world (Australia?  Could also be Europe.) remember
 that _any_ person needs to maintain a sense of responsibility for
 one's own life, for one's own actions.  The recipient classes
 here, at least in the inner cities, seem to have forgotten that -
 or deliberately ignore it - and then proceed to rub the
 responsible taxpayers' noses in that fact.

 The problem that we have with Eurosocialism is not the high taxes
 \per se\, although that does tend to turn us off - it's the idea
 of the high taxes with our current set of recipients, and with our
 current wasteful government.  If the US government would use our
 tax money to build as efficient a train system as Germany, Japan,
 or Switzerland has; or to provide quality cradle-to-grave health
 care at reasonable cost, as Sweden does (used to do?); or any of a
 number of individual programs that Europe has gotten right, but
 which can't work in the US as long as we maintain our current
 culture of victimhood; _then_ we might see a return to the concept
 that you've characterized as "noblesse oblige".  We had it up
 until the Crash in '29.

 This has nothing to do with Traveller.  Followups to private mail,
 please.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00a  A little enthusiasm never hurt anybody....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 22:52 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Stuart L. Dollars desire for Subsector View/Print
Message-ID: <m0tpXhX-0002oTC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

I'm working on it. I'm not prepared to publicly release full details yet ( due
to pending discussions about copyright and such ) but I can say that I'm writing
 software right now to provide referees with a campaign planning tool which
centers around sector and subsector maps generated by other peoples sector
generation software.

One of my pet peeves with existing sector generation programs is that all they
provide is a list of names with cold codes attached. They have no life. My idea
is to provide an easy and graphic way of displaying subsector data with full
details of each world displayed ( instead of having to manually decode the UPP
).

What I'd like to know is what type of world/system information is _really_
important to referees ?

For example, does anyone really care about the stellar data in a system ? How
many refs run games involving that level of hard science ( forcing players into
vacc-suits at the drop of a hat ), and how many are happy to skip that bit and
let interaction with NPCs provide the variety between worlds ??

your thoughts please.

Simon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 10:20:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Primordials/Empress Wave
Message-ID: <8BB426C.140001A332.uuout@almac.co.uk>


Christopher Griffen writes re. The Empress Wave, Baddies from the Core

>There has been a fair amount of speculation about the Empress Wave of
>late and  what it might portend.  Even though Dave Nilsen announced it
>would _not_ be the DGP "baddies," now that GDW is no longer at the
>helm, I'd like to see the  baddies be revised for use with the "Virus
>Era" background.

<snip>

>Any thoughts?

Well, MM could guarantee he would have one less buyer for his product by
following this advice. DGP's Sparklers were a sub-Star Trek plot device.
If I wanted to adventure with the Borg I'd play Star Trek. I don't (or
even watch it very often) because it's mind numbingly stupid. So are the
Borg (oops, Sparklers).

It's quite fortunate in a way that DGP stopped being involved with
Traveller when they did, at least I could remember the happy days of
WBH, 101 Vehicles, TD and MTJ whereas if you look at the list of future
ideas in MTJ4 (?) you'll find that they vary between dumb and dumber. I
thank Ghu for Hard Times and Virus, which spared me the bloody Sparklers
if nothing else (and I never ever thought I'd say anything that nice
about the decision for TTNE to replace MT).

If you want to keep the Empress Wave and make sense, just don't connect
the Wave to the Consulate's troubles; that easy. Forget the Primordials,
we've got the Ancients, thanks very much. If you want to introduce weird
aliens, what about the folks that built "Shadows" or the Annic Nova's
builders. Since the Annic Nova was built for humanoids, how about them
as EW-transmitters. The EW message ? "Give us our ship back !".

The potentially very unhappy Angus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 19:31:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: CG and Orbital mechanics
Message-ID: <mykoJD2w165w@krypton.rain.com>

merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) writes:

>> Charles Pratt wrote:
>> In response to both the CG bit and the Hohlmann interplanetary orbits:
>> In effect the Hohlmann orbit is designed to "steal" angular velocity from
>> planets because of conservation of momentum, energy, ad nauseum.  So why
>> not use the CG lifters in reverse---to _increase_ the mass of the ship
>> and thus increase the amount of attraction between the bodies?  Anyone
>> have any ideas about how efficient this would be?
>
>Well, off hand, not at all (er, not measurably).
>
>       G M' R
>F = - -----
>       r^3
>
>and M'=M+m   R is a unit vector
>
>Right?  The reason for the M' is that r is the distance to the center of
>mass between the two.

Wrong. What you have up there looks like a formula for tidal
acceleration.

The formula is:

     G*M*m
F = -------
      R^2

F = force due to gravity.
G = Gravitation constant
M = gravitational mass of planet
m = gravitational mass of ship
R = distance between planet and ship.

So increasing the gravitational mass of the ship increases the force in
direct proportion to the mass increase. Since CG can nuetralize 90% of
the mass, then it can probably *increase* it by that much as well.

The *effect* of the force is governed by *this* formula:

F = m*A  (or A=F/m)

F = force acting upon object
m = inertial mass of object
A = acceleration imparted to object

Note that if gravitational mass and inertial mass are equal, then all
objects will be accelerated identically by a planet. But since CG
neutralizes *gravitational* mass, but leaves *inertial* mass alone
(otherwise your jets would move you more easily *horizontally* while
the CG was on!).

So the acceleration will increase/decrease in direct proportion to the
change in gravitational mass. So With CG in full "reverse" you'd get a
"free" 90% of the planet's attraction as a boost. The exact amount
depends on distance.

You'd have to be careful not to let it pull you into the planet though.
I'd just handle it by calculating the gravity vector as normal, then
adding/subtracting one up to 9/10ths as long in the same or the
opposite direction (ie directly towards or away from the planet).

BTW, the Hohmann (not Hohlman!) orbit has nothing to do with
gaining/losing velocity by any sort of trick. It's just generally the
cheapest possible way from one orbit around a bosy to another orbit
around the same body. It's an elliptical orbit that is tangent to both
the starting and ending orbits at the point where you leave the first
and enter the second. That's why the timing is so critical. You have to
leave one orbit at a time when the time you'll spend in the Hohmann
orbit is equal to the time it'll take the planet in the other orbit to
get to the point where the hohmann orbit crosses its orbit. (A diagram
would make this a *lot* simpler <sigh>).

The slingshot effect is something quite different. And the gain or loss
depends not on your propulsion system, but on transfering momentum to
or from the planet to your ship.

The idea is that you pass *behind* the planet in it's orbit and let its
gravity speed you up (getting a boost for "free" by fractionally
slowing the planet! Or you can pass in front of it to slow down.

So the limit is set by two things. First, how close you can safely get
to the planet. Second buy both the mass and orbital velocity of the
planet.

There's also a manuever that involves making a close pass to increase
the effectiveness of a burn by doing it at closest approach to the
planet. What this does is take the potential energy of the fuel burned
and add that to what you'd normally get from the burn.

Picture it like this. If you *didn't* burn the fuel, its potential
energy would turn into kinetic energy as you approached the planet, and
as you moved away, the kinetic energy would turn back into potential
energy. Once you got back to the same distance, you'd be back where you
started, except for the change in direction.

Now, consider what happens if you use that mass at the closest
approach. You get to keep the kinetic energy, plus the extra it gives
by going thru the engines. But the more efficient your engines, the
less benefit you'll get.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 20:10:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Space survival technology...
Message-ID: <VsmoJD3w165w@krypton.rain.com>

"'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu> writes:

>The problem is, for it to truly be useful in as many situations a
>possible, it needs to be able to get away from the ship quickly, support
>life long enough to be found (a week/two?), and it needs to be able to be
>found (transponder---something like modern-day EPIRB devices on ocean
>going vessels).  Now, the major problem is making this device small
>enough to be stowable in enough numbers to provide for the crew---an
>actual subordinate spacecraft would be too large for the smaller ships.

Well, to start with you are going to have to give up the "one size fits
all approach". You *can't* create a device that'll cover all the
situations and do so *usefully*.

>So far, I envision a 3-layer "balloon" built around a rigid axis with a
>small solid fuel booster on the forward axis of motion.  The outer shell
>would most likely be a gold-coated, self-sealing mylar shell, to
>decrease radiation.

Decreasing radiation isn't going to be possibly in one of these. Metal
makes things *worse*, not better, as most particle radiation is going
too *fast* to interact with people. If it hits a light element, it
tends to stop. If it hits a heavy element (metal) it tends to knock out
a *shower* of *slower* particles. Slow enough that they *will* interact
with the body. Not good.

Paraffin and most plastics that have *lots* of hydrogen per carbon atom
are better shielding against particle radiation than is an equal
thickness of metal!

You may still want to have a foil coating for purposes of reflecting
sunlight. More on this below.

> The second shell would be a flexible material
>(remember the whole point is that it can be packed down for storage) of
>some sort of ballistic weave (hopefully self-sealing) to guard against
>micrometeors.

Kevlar works just fine. Check out the coveralls that the Apollo
astronauts wore over their suits.

> The inner most shell would be the main heat retention
>shell.  Between these would be inert gases of decreasing pressure to
>retain heat and further eliminate em radiation penetration.

You don't need a heat retention layer. You are surrounded by a vacuum.
The *only* way to lose heat is to *radiate* it. In effect, you are in
side a big thermos bottle. Your main problem is going to be getting rid
of the 100 watss of *heat* that each human body generates. (the two
major problems in spacesuit design are keeping the internal pressure
from making it impossible to flex the limbs, and keeping the wearer
from frying in his own waste heat)

Apollo 13 had problems with cold because they had everything shut down
and were trying not to move much, so as to save air. They were also
running a 3 psi oxygen atmosphere, which increases heat loss. If they
could have afforded the air, they could have warmed up by blackening
part of the hull.

Radiation protect won't be appreciably increased by another layer.

>The main problem is figuring out how to get it away from a ship in
>degrading orbit (at least put the rescue ball in a stable orbit),

Forget it. One, the *only* way to have a "degrading orbit" is to be low
enough that you are getting appreciable atmospheric drag. Otherwise,
orbits only decay over periods of *weeks* to *years*.

If you are low enough to run into dangerous levels of atmspheric drag,
*nothing* small enough to pack away is going to be able to help you.
Not unless you can mount a Heplar on the lifepod...

So instead, what you want is a *re-entry* pack. NASA and the military
did do some research on thes, though they never got to the point of
testing them in orbit. If the Space Station project happens, they may
test some there.

Basic idea is using something along the lines of the "instant foam" you
can buy in the hardware store. You mix a couple of liquids and they
generate a foam that quickly hardens into a solid but light material.

For a re-entry pod, the foam inflates and solidifies a "bag" of tough
film, The film guarantees the foam assumes the right shape. There's an
attached solid rocket motor that you use to de-orbit. A gyro keeps you
oriented so that the foam shield is what takes the re-entry heat. It
burns away at a controlled rate, thus removing the heat from your
vicinity. Once you get slowed down enough, you dump the shield and use
a parachute, CG belt, or other device to reach the ground safely. One
"other device" is a cross between a baloon and a parachute.

>and to
>get the ball rapidly away from a ship that's gonna blow.  An booster engine
>set up to pull the ball would give more directional stability than one
>set up to boost, but I cant see any other way than have a solid booster
>mounted on a boom accomplishing.

Sorry, but that's a popular misconception. An engine "pulling" is no
more stable than one "pushing". Either way, the thrust is *always* in
the direction the motor is pointing, and there's nothing to keep it
pointing in any particular direction. Trust me on this one. (I could go
into detail, but it'd take a lot of space).

Assume that a one-man "pod" weighs only 50 kilos. Add in a 200 kilo
passenger (worst case?). That's 250 kilos. Now, to get a velocity of
about 30 m/sec (about 67 mph), you are going to need to apply a thrust
of 500 kilos (2 gs!) for 1.5 seconds. So for safety, lets figure on two
seconds of thrust. 500 "kilos" of thrust is 4.9e3 newtons.

Solid fuel gives around 180 seconds specific impulse. So we need 11
kilos of fuel. If the engine has been mishandled, those 11 kilos will
*destroy* the pod... Also, that means that the pod and engine must
weigh only 39 kilos. Workable, but...

>Any ideas on modifications to this design?  Are there any other published
>rescue apparatus out there?

Something else to consider is the "rescue balls" carried on the
Shuttle. They are just an inflatable, airtight fabric and something
ball. They are intended for stuffing unsuited people into so that folks
in suits can transfer them through an area in vacuum (only scenario
where they'd be of much use is if the Shuttle couldn't re-enter for
some reason and we sent up a rescue flight. Only 3 of the crew have
suits. Everybody else would get bundled into a rescue ball for
transfer.

In Traveller, such would be for cases where part of the ship got
decompressed.

Check used bookstores for Lifepod (Lifeboat?) by Harry Harrison and
Gordon Dickson.  It's an attempt to prtray folks in a hightech lifeboat.
Also look for Lifeboat by James White. Do note that White makes some
*serious* errors. For example, the way he has people getting rid of the
spin on their pods *won't* won't. It violates conservation of momentum.

These are the *only* fictional treatments of space "lifeboats" in any
detail. They do get mentioned in passing in other stories, but there's
not much detail in most.

BTW, odds are that if you aren't in orbit around something, or in
company of another ship, then a lifeboat won't be much help in MT or
TNE. Due to the fuel requirements, the odds of getting rescued before
you run out of air or food (water isn't much of a problem) are kinda
slim.

So I'd go for re-entry pods, and rescue balls. For anything else, make
sure that there are *several* ship's boats, and that they can hold the
entire crew and passengers between them. Then you have a chance.

If the ship is gonna go "boom", you probably can't get far enough away,
or won't last long enough to be rescued. Having emergency life support
setups in each section of the ship is a good idea.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com<--last resort

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 607
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 608

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re:  Space survival technology... by Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
  2) Simon's Glorious Program by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
  3) Re: CG and Orbital mechanics by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  4) Re: DOOMed starship deckplans by stedee@auto-trol.com (Steve Deemer)
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 607 by pbravey@inference.co.uk
  6) Re: Jumping into systems (HEPlaR tactics part 12827) by Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
  7) Re: TRAVELLER digest 607 by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  8) Imperia Again by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
  9) Imperial Law (1 of 3) by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:58:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  Space survival technology...
Message-ID: <199602221358.IAA06137@access1.digex.net>


 shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
 > Subject: Space survival technology...
 > ...So instead, what you want is a *re-entry* pack.
 >
 > Basic idea is using something along the lines of the "instant foam" you
 > can buy in the hardware store. You mix a couple of liquids and they
 > generate a foam that quickly hardens into a solid but light material.

 You do realize that this is a standard CT item, don't you?  I've got
 the Starter Traveller Rules Booklet here, and on p.42 we find, under the
 heading of Abandon Ship: "A typical vacc suit is capable of one turn's
 acceleration at 1-G before it runs out of fuel.  A foamed atmospheric
 re-entry ablation shield (part of the vacc suit kit) can protect the
 individual while entering the atmosphere of a world if his velocity is no
 more than one range band per turn.  Accident or mishap can occur during
 the process.  Throw 7+ to survive provided all else is performed properly..."

 Rob Dean
 robdean@access.digex.net
 (Traveller Dinosaur)

>


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:37:28 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: Simon's Glorious Program
Message-ID: <01BB0187.35D53AC0@ppp068.on.rim.or.jp>

Simon (simonm@ramhb.co.nz) asks for comments and requests for his program.
I am interested.  I don't know how involved you plan to make the program,
but I have a few suggestions.
Include all the hard-science and detail you can handle, with the option of
disabling it for those who don't think it's necessary.
For example:
1.  Stelllar/system data for a system is used in a newtonian-type simulation
of orbits.  It shows the system graphically and can be used to provide
travel times between planets and to the safe zone for jump (users would
input the maneuver drive and fuel of their ship).  The simulation need not
be graphics-intensive.  A simple mathematical model with colored dots and so
on would do.  The starting positions of the planets could be random or
stored by the program for the next time the system is visited.  See the
shareware program "Newton" for Windows for an example (programmer:  Paul
Keet, 12726 Southridge Dr., Surrey, B.C., Canada, V3X 3C6).  Planets other
than the main world are not in the system profile, but nothing stops you
from randomly generating it, and allowing users to input what they know from
canon (i.e. Regina, Terra) and what they use in their campaign.  In my
opinion, this is a great way to make use of the possibilites in Traveller
system generation.  It saves lots of time in many ways.
2.  Show the most advantageous trade routes (and also just what is the best
system to sell cargo x for highest profit when speculating) by using the
trade codes in the sector data.  This has been done on paper in a JTAS
article before (but takes forever to calculate on paper).  Perfect for
adding extra gaming practicality for players to your program.
3.  Printout or the option to output data to a BMP/GIF or whatever would be
nice.  I'd be happiest even if only the latter was possible; I can still
print BMPs with other apps.
4.  As noted above, random world/system/sector generation.  Add the ability
to preset some of the parameters so you don't have to press the randomize
button a billion times to get what you want.
5.  Can't think of more right now, I hope my wish list isn't too demanding.
 Oh, and please make it runable with Win 95.  (Was that a stupid thing to
say?)
Armand


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:49:46 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: CG and Orbital mechanics
Message-ID: <9602221549.AA08459@Rt66.com>


> Wrong. What you have up there looks like a formula for tidal
> acceleration.
>
> The formula is:
>
>      G*M*m
> F = -------
>       R^2

Um, shouldn't the R be distance to the center of mass of the system?

These objects _are_ in orbit around the center of mass, it's just that
one of them (presumably) is unbound.

R would still (to first few orders) be the center of the planet though
since the ship doesn't do squat to the CM of the system.

I see your point regarding grav. vs. inertial mass for CG calculations
though... odd way to think :-)

Anyway, interesting stuff :-)

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:42:22 -0700
From: stedee@auto-trol.com (Steve Deemer)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: DOOMed starship deckplans
Message-ID: <9602221742.AA02158@stedee.YP.attc>


I don't have any experience with other than Marathon (I'm Mac-bound in
the games department), but Marathon does have other editors than map
editors. There's a physics editor that allows you to set for zero-G,
for instance, and editors to change the characteristics of weapons
and such.

As I get time over the next month or so, I'm going to see if I can build
some of the smaller ships, the Scout/Courier and a couple of Free Traders
with the Marathon editors. If anyone has already done this, do you have
any tips/tricks to pass on? Got any maps to trade?

Steve Deemer
stedee@auto-trol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 18:41:14 GMT
From: pbravey@inference.co.uk
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 607
Message-ID: <9601228250.AA825043549@smtplink.inference.co.uk>

Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca> wrote:
>First, in my reply to Mr. McLullan (sorry if I mispelled your name), I
>said that the Imperium would permit a high-pop, TL F, high-pop New German
>Reich to kill of the Jews.
>
>Sorry, I take that back.  If evidence is produced that the Imperium world
>allow this - say, a Traveller News Service article saying that the
>Imperium let this happen, or a published adventure about such a
>circumstance in the United Imperium - then I will agree that such a thing
>is possible.
>

Boy, have you swallowed the Imperial propaganda machine. Sure you aren't on the
payroll? I bet you believe everything you read in the paper as well. :)

I can't believe a media service so pervasive in Imperial society is not censored
in some way by the Imperium. In fact if the Imperium is the sinister society
that Angus claims then it will totally control it. Either way if the imperium
lets some form of genocide go ahead then they're hardly going to want the fact
advertised are they?

As to having a published adventure about this sort of thing, it wouldn't be
mainstream enough. How many GM's are going to want to run an adventure which
will probably end up with their player's either knowing too much and on the run
or dead. (On the other hand that particular idea does have its merits :). Also
why would GDW want to publish something which destroys the image of the Imperium
as the good guys and all of the other empires as the bad guys. If  the adventure
was based on a connivance between a corrupt Imperial official and the world then
that's a whole different kettle of fish.

>Otherwise, I am simply wrong, as such a slaughter would be against the
>essentually 20th century mores of the Imperium.  (As I described in my
>previous post).  Sorry, Mr. McLullan - but I just NEED to be consistant!

The cynics point of view here is that slaughter only goes against 20th century
mores when there is enough public outcry. Therefore, nothing would get done
about the slaughter 'cos there would be no public outcry.

Paul


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:49:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Jumping into systems (HEPlaR tactics part 12827)
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.91.960222232232.1794A-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>


> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> >[I wrote earlier:]
> >I think the general consensus that's emerging is that, under HePlaR, it's
> >harder on the I-fleet than it was under thrusters.  As someone pointed
> >out, most naval vessels aren't going to carry enough fuel for two jumps,
> >one in and one out.  Obviously, if you're attacking with a modern (J-4 or
> >more) fleet across a 1-parsec gap, you'll have plenty of reserve after
> >your J-1 for fleeing or moving on.  But a more typical scenario would be
> >a J-3 into the target system, given the typical stellar separations and
> >need to keep the assault moving into enemy territory.  After a J-3, most
> >ships will need to refuel to get home.
>
> You never participated in a TCS campaign, did you? No admiral would want
> to arrive anywhere with less than full tanks (though I grant you that he
> might not have any choice).

Not only did I participate in a couple of TCS campaigns, I engaged in
extended tests of Eurisko's designs, and was a charter member of the "Big
Rock vs. Shiny Wedge Debating Society." :) I know TCS, believe me.

Yes, no admiral would *want* to arrive anywhere with less than full tanks.
Heck, given a choice in the matter, any admiral would also prefer that the
opposing fleet self-destruct when painted with targeting lasers, or better
still, just before his fleet arrives in-system.  Alas, in the real world,
or even the real simulated world, admirals end up forced by circumstances
to fight in suboptimal battles.  A vastly conservative admiral, who never
travels without topping off the tanks, never takes an "all eggs in one
basket" gamble, is a real asset (usually) on the defending side.  On the
offense, this type of admiral quite frankly does miserably.

Traveller technology rewards initiative and rapid movement; the slow speed
of intelligence (equal to the potential rate of advance) means that it's
easy to launch devastating surprise attacks.  And given that the defender
has a built-in advantage in an even battle (prepared positions, full
tanks, SDBs, etc.), the only way for the attacker to win strategically is
to concentrate his forces into a few massive assaults, and hope to (a) win
big and (b) redeploy the fleets to cover the resulting gaping holes in his
own lines before the defender can react.  Often, this means hitting deep
-- doing long jumps past the "front line" worlds, which will be most
heavily defended, and hitting a rear area.  And in these circumstances,
the attacking fleet will often arrive with distressingly dry tanks.

> >In the Good Old Days, you attacked a gas giant to refuel.
>
> Believe me, once you've had your forces chewed up a fifth at a time trying
> to defend your whole system, you'll concentrate your defensive forces on
> defending the mainworld.

There's a lot to be said for never letting the attacker relax.  I agree,
the bulk of forces will be deployed to defend the mainworld; but a few
SDBs and the odd escort tucked away in a GG can have a seriously
unnerving effect.  For one thing, it forces the attacker to squander time
and resources "cleaning" the GGs if he wants them as refueling points.
And as Von Clauswitz (sp?) points out, the defender controls space, the
attacker time.  If the defender forces the attacker to slow down, waste
time, then the defender is nullifying the attacker's control of the
situation as a whole.  And this has important implications for
"blitzkrieg" style of (strategic) attack I described above.

Comments, anyone?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Berry                      CompuServe cancellation ID: 11089132
cberry@cinenet.net               Don't support Net censorship!
---------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 21:30:24 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 607
Message-ID: <199602231030.VAA17073@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> Subject: Re: [T603] Noblesse Oblige, Cyberpunk, and the US
>
>  I _have_ to respond to this - it looks at one admittedly valid
>  point against us, without looking at the whole picture.  The
>  comparatively recent "hard right" that American social and
>  political attitudes have taken is not due to an unwillingness to
>  help those less fortunate than us - it is due to an unwillingness
>  to keep giving and giving and giving and then be told that we're
>  scum for wanting to keep some for ourselves, and being told that
>  these people, _some_ (not all) of whom are perfectly capable of
>  working _if_ they wanted to, have a _right_ to sponge off the
>  rest of us.  We also object to the bloated bureaucracies that
>  constantly mismanage these "entitlements".

I see your point, but to an inhabitant of Oz(traylia), the "recent" trend to
the "hard right" in US politics is missing the point. In *Oz* and *European*
terms, US Politics has *always* been further right than we have been prepared
to tolerate ... certainly since WW2, arguable (in some respects only) since
the last century. This is not to say that the system(s) that exist in Oz or
europe are perfect (they're not) or that they're even "better" than that of
the US (this is, *obviously*, quite contentious), but that they seem to take
better care of the "common man" than the US system does. *Our* "far right"
would support all sorts of social programs that your *liberals* would regard
as out and out communism ... and we seem to get on pretty well.

>  Most people have no objection to unemployment benefits; we tend to
>  view them as _insurance_ - and I don't think that there's a state
>  in the country that doesn't have restrictions similar in principle
>  to New York State - you must have worked for some specified
>  portion of the prior year; the benefits stop after some smaller
>  portion of the year; the benefit amount is keyed to the salary of
>  the most recent job.  In NY, you work for a year, and get six
>  months of benefits at half your last salary, to a limit of $350
>  per week (or at least those were the numbers when I last applied,
>  three years ago).

In Oz (and, so I gather, in many European countries) Unemployment Benefits are
regarded as a *right* ... if the government cannot manage the economy well
enough to provide for close to full employment for all, then I think most
Australians agree that they have a responsibility to provide for a basic
standard of living for those who cannot find work. There *are* those who do
seem to subscribe to the views that you describe below, but, by and large, they
have never had a serious hold on most people's attitudes to such things. There
are constant whinges about "dole bludgers" ... but they almost always seem to
be "other people" ... just like many Germans and the Jews, the ones they knew
*personally* were OK, it was the ones that Hitler kept telling them about, you
know, the Zionist Bankers and the like, not Mr. Goldblum in the flat next door.

>  Most people don't have an objection \per se\ to programs like Food
>  Stamps or AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) - we
>  object to having no controls on those programs, so that recipients
>  can casually buy lobster and filet and soda and potato chips and
>  pretzels and Swiss and French chocolate, while the taxpayers
>  shopping in the same supermarket have to choose whether to buy a
>  roast for one day or chicken cutlets for two days, and maybe we'll
>  get the Hershey bars next week.  Worse, these people get the
>  change from their food stamps in _cash_ - so that after buying the
>  pretzels, they can go into the liquor store around the corner and
>  buy scotch.

See above.

>  Based on your post, I'd suggest that the recipient classes in your
>  part of the world (Australia?  Could also be Europe.) remember
>  that _any_ person needs to maintain a sense of responsibility for
>  one's own life, for one's own actions.  The recipient classes
>  here, at least in the inner cities, seem to have forgotten that -
>  or deliberately ignore it - and then proceed to rub the
>  responsible taxpayers' noses in that fact.

The attitude you describe here - the "recipient classes" - *seems* to me to
be indicative of everything that the source I mentioned suggested. Perhaps
it is because the US is less democratic than Oz ... in *one* sense. We have
compulsory voting in *all* elections here, from Council to Federal Parliament,
so *everyones* attitudes must be considered by the pollies (or would be
pollies) in Canberra. As I understand it, less than 50% (IIRC) of the voting
age population in the US turns out for a given election, and the majority of
the "recipient classes" are non-voters. *If* they were voters, then perhaps
a different attitude on both their opponent's parts and that of the government
would be in evidence. Since, however, they are not a political force, they
can be safely ignored and vilified.

Of course, in Europe they do not have compulsory voting, either, but they *do*
have a strong social welfare system, courtesy of the eurocommunists, and even
the "ruling classes" still have the tradition of "nobless oblige" that those of
the US may have lost, if the theory that I was describing holds any water at
all.

>  The problem that we have with Eurosocialism is not the high taxes
>  \per se\, although that does tend to turn us off - it's the idea
>  of the high taxes with our current set of recipients, and with our
>  current wasteful government.  If the US government would use our
>  tax money to build as efficient a train system as Germany, Japan,
>  or Switzerland has; or to provide quality cradle-to-grave health
>  care at reasonable cost, as Sweden does (used to do?); or any of a
>  number of individual programs that Europe has gotten right, but
>  which can't work in the US as long as we maintain our current
>  culture of victimhood; _then_ we might see a return to the concept
>  that you've characterized as "noblesse oblige".  We had it up
>  until the Crash in '29.

That's very debatable. As I said, to *non-US* eyes, US politics has *always*
looked far right wing in respect of our own (Oz or European). I accept that
this means that we, in return, are seen as that terrifying and evil force
(in US terms), the *liberal*. The point I'm trying to make (*was* trying to
make) is that the US approach is *not*, and never has been, the only one. It
is not even, necessarily, the most *likely* one to be adopted by a furture
Interstellar state.

You see, practical evidence is against your own system being all that great.
*We* don't have decaying inner cities spotted with what are basically free
fire zones for drug gangs (OK, I'm sure both your *and* our media exaggerate
here!); there is no huge underclass (though we're not perfect, there *is* an
underclass, but they *seem* to have a better chance and a better "fair go"
than the US *seems* to offer hers); education is free and pretty much equal
for all ... no metal detectors needed to prevent weapons being brought into
*our* schools, not much violence therein, either ... certainly nothing like
the scale that allegedly exists in the US, and no sort of major drug problem
(Im speaking from experience in the latter part, I've been a High School
teacher for twenty years, and, in that time, having taught in country schools,
working class areas *and* upper-middle class areas, I have seen, literally,
less than a *handful* of drug cases at school); we don't have walled off
"private" suburbs with razor wire and armed guards keeping out said "recipient
classes", either. No, we're far from perfect, but we *seem* to have a better
handle on social policy things than the US *seems* to have.

>  This has nothing to do with Traveller.  Followups to private mail,
>  please.

Well, actually, it does. I'm trying to make the point that it is at least as
likely that some form of "eurosocialist" government is going to run many high
tech, high population, worlds as it is that some extreme Thatcherite/Reaganite
style laissez faire capitalist system will. Given that, then it seems likely
that the people on many (if not most) such worlds will, as I suggested, quite
probably have a work week *much* shorter than that which exists here and now,
in *both* our countries. While such social issues are mostly ignored in
Traveller, the potential for impacts on all aspects of the "world of the
future" are much greater than Miller et al have been heretofore prepared to
allow for.

Phil McGregor

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 22:57:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Imperia Again
Message-ID: <8BB4561.140001A485.uuout@almac.co.uk>


On Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:41:24 -0500 (EST)
Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca> wrote,
Subject: Imperia response...

Well I won't argue with someone who's agreeing with me (well not today
anyway) so much snipped.

>> After Margaret the Imperium carried out it's
>> disastrous experiment with psycho-history, the details of which
>> suggest  an elite increasingly distanced from the masses. With the
>> Imperial  Guard's overthrow of Styryx, supposedly a result of that
>> Emperor's  incompetence (*7) a crisis is obviously in the making.

>Ahh!  Well, not necessarily Doomsday, but Bad Things Becomes
>Possible... However, nowhere here was a hint of the territorial
>fractionalism that  marked the Rebellion.  If it was just a bunch of
>nobles bashing each  others head's in for the Irridium Throne, no
>problem.  But the Rebellion  developed into a paraNationialistic
>revolution, with every Domain looking  out for number one.  In a
>nations Virusless universe, you'd get a bunch of major  - each about
>nations 1-2 sectors in size - and a whole score of minor  by 1200.

Two points :- there are regional entities - certainly Ilelish and the
"Vilani Cultural Region" are long distinct entities and Antares probably
still retains vague ties to it's trans-frontier Julian bretheren. That's
three of the major factions already.
Secondly, without Virus the itsy-bitsy states you propose would be
dominated by external powers or absorbed by them in the 70-year
interregnum. Ley and Fornast would be vegetarian heaven, Margaret's
former domain would be a de facto client of the Hive Federation, Daibei
would have fallen either to the Solomani or the Aslan, the petty states
of Diaspora and Old Expanses would be at the mercy of the Solomani, Hive
Confederation, Ilelish and rump Lucanic Imperium, Vargr encroachment
will continue into Lishun, Antares and Vland. Rats, Cats, Centaurs,
Sneaks and Doggies dominate the former Imperium from within and without,
using the remaining petty states as pawns and puppets in their struggles
to dominate the entire region.

<Of the militarisation of the aristocracy>

>Also, consider the information in the Rebellion Sourcebook, where it
>speaks of the frayed chains of command in the subsector/sector level.
>Of course, this is not *necessarily* a signal of decline: the Romans
>operated quite nicely with a mess of a government, as they has a very
>strong culture among the Ruling Elite.

Surely the point is that the subsector/sector governments and the
resident naval forces are too united by having cousin Fred as sector
admiral, great-aunt Jemima as subsector Duke, uncle Gervaise as a fleet
commander and so on.
The early Roman empire while employing aristos as governors and as
commanders clearly separated the two jobs and ensured that the
aristocratic military commanders were in large measure impotent, with
real power resting with long-service commoners.

<Of Lucan>

>> (*) Lucan, a reformer ? Yes. He certainly wasn't the paranoid maniac
>> that he was made out to be.
>The probem then is, what were the policies he would have established to
>reform the Imperium?  Give me more!

Analog for Lucan, hmmm. We want a mercurial, suspicious, temperamental
whirlwind given to reforming an out-of-date Empire. What about Peter the
Great (daft as a brush, given to fits of murderous rage but still an
effective if brutal reformer) ? Lucan might have moved the capital away
from the entrenched interests of Capital and Core to some more backward
sector to provide a tabula rasa for his work. With the threat being on
the Vargr/K'kree frontier there aren't many obvious sites. Somewhere in
the top left of Fornast ? (This assumes that Lucan's sudden love for
Sylean culture and language during the Rebellion are a political ploy).

Or Justinian. Leave the capital where it is but begin military reforms
to restore the halcyon days of Imperial military power and complete the
conquest of the Solomani Sphere and other "lost" lands. Although the
Imperium isn't quite in the same degree of trouble that the Roman Empire
was when Justinian took over, it still needs fixing.

And that's just the straightforward options. In the weird category are
the possibility of Lucan developing some religious conviction and
seeking to convert the Empire to the One True Faith. Or the chances of
him beginning a cultural revolution - breaking all ties with the past,
burn the history books, &c - like the Ancient Chinese Emperors Shih
Huang-Ti or Mao Zedong.

>Had Wondhook made a beeline for the Solomani Rim, you'd be crowing
>about how Wondhook - after completing his mission - was simply heading
>back to his handlers as ordered.

Of course, you are absolutely right....

Since the evidence is as thin as water we need to flesh it out to make
anything of it. But given the number of spooks and assassins crawling
around the Imperial palace that day it is quite possible that Windhook
really was someone's agent. It's just whose and doing what. Perhaps
Windhook killed Varian because of some grudge and both he and Lucan are
lying. Perhaps he didn't kill Varian at all and neither did Lucan. It's
impossible to know for sure (just as we weren't supposed to know whether
"The Real Strephon" was Strephon or not and the DGP plotlines in MTJ4
suggest that they thought he wasn't) what happened in the room.

I think I've written enough for today.

Angus



Our acts continue on their destined way
which does not know an end.
I slew my sovereign so that Shakespeare
might plot his tragedy.

J.L. Borges, El oro de los tigres, Macbeth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 23:37:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Imperial Law (1 of 3)
Message-ID: <8BB4589.140001A486.uuout@almac.co.uk>


On that most auspicious day, Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:17:20 -0500 (EST),
Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca> addressed "A reply to Mr.
McLellan" to the TML (Digest 606).

Well, it's a big reply. Like Gaul it's divided into three parts.

1: "Let a thousand flowers bloom" : Cultural Variation in the Imperium.
=======================================================================

Alvin addresses the issue thus ...
>Is the Imperium as varigated as claimed?  Sorry, Mr. McLellan, put
>that's  simply untrue - if you prefer the New Era viewpoint, anyways.
>Imperial  culture is stated to be influenced by standard Judeao-
>Christian norms in  HIver & Itklur, and the cultures of the Regency and
>the Coalition - areas  as far apart as you please - both operate as
>democracies, using Western  norms.  Claims to the contrary, there is a
>single Imperial culture,  essentually that of 20th century Solomani.

Well, I'll repeat myself. There are a whole gamut of cultures on late
C20th Earth from "I'm all right Jack" consumerist through theocratic
oligarchies to tribal paleolithic hunter-gatherers. Where is the norm ?

If you would like to try and define Judaeo-Christian norms (and this
correspondent considers himself to be neither Jewish nor Christian and
is thus presumably abnormal like the 70+% of his fellow country persons
who could in all likelihood hardly find the nearest place of Jewish or
Christian worship and whose religious encounters are limited to births,
deaths and marriages), we could discuss whether they are meaningful
norms or vague platitudes. Does Pat Buchanan fall within these norms,
does Clinton, what about the KKK, Gerry Adams, hard-line Israeli
settlers ? If they are limited to the things I expect like "be nice to
your neighbour so long as he's one of us" and "don't kill our sort of
people" then they are not really useful in describing anything since
almost every culture has valued this degree of co-operation amongst it's
members, where Judaeo-Christian or Islamic or something else.

>(I seem to remember an article that noted that Imperial Anglic has
>hardly  changed from 20th Century English, and that's why most of
>Imperial  culture resembled that of Western Europe/US just before
>contact with the  Vilani.

So in the hundred plus years before contact and the millennium of the
Long Night there have been no changes in language ? Seems highly
improbable. My personal feeling is that by the C30th Murkin and Stralian
will be different languages and not just dialects. Now some RP version
of the language - Court Galanglic - might exist, but that'll be
restricted to the aristos, wannabes and poseurs. The military will need
to employ a standard Galanglic, but the obvious analog - Austro-
Hungary's pre-WWI Army German - suggests a language of limited
vocabulary and brutalised construction. Translating the Collected Works
of Shakespeare into Imperial Military Galanglic or A-H Army German seems
like a lost cause. And given moderately efficient translation software
there seems not to be a pressing problem with this language divergence
where cultural interchanged is concerned.

For canonical support, I refer you in particular to p17 of Solomani &
Aslan wherein the languages of the Solomani Confederation are discussed.
Quote [Rim Anglic, the Solomani equivalent of Imeprial Galanglic] is
spoken as a native language only on Terra and the worlds within her
sphere of influence. Many other worlds were settled by Anglic speakers
as long ago as the Interstellar Wars, and in the following periods of
isolation, their dialects evolved to such an extent that they now
comprise separate languages. End quote. That's quite clear. There is
also a Terry McInnes (IIRC) article in one of the Best of the Journals.

Add Vargr languages, Vilani, Suerrat, Geonee, Tapazmal and who knows
what other languages and cultures and you have a very polyglot, multi-
cultural Empire.

And why not ? There is no reason to believe that it is necessary for the
Imperium to have a common language except among the aristos and the
military. The Raj managed to have dozens of languages, even among the
Imperial army, although a few (Urdu & Gurkhali top of the list)
dominated. Spotty-faced Subalterns, fresh from Blighty were compelled to
learn the language of their troops and had little prospect of promotion
unless they learned it well. If their soldiers don't speak Urdu then
they would have to learn another tongue as well. For those posted to the
NW Frontier to serve with the Scouts there learning yet another language
(Pushtun or something of that ilk) would be necessary. Officers drafted
into the civil administration would probably have to learn yet another
and probably completely unrelated language since in most parts of India
there was more chance of finding an English speaker than anyone who
spoke Urdu or Gurkhali.

>Moreover, there are two "Supercultures" in the Imperium, the Solomani
>and  the Vilani.  They would also tend to bond together the Imperium as
>one  single unit, and make possible a single judicial system.  Finally,
>note the  "Domaincultures", forming just before the Rebellion: the
>Denebi culture,  revivals of the Vilani and Sylean cultures, the
>Daibei, Antares, etc.   Laws on a world in one culture would "make some
>sense" to another world in  the same general area.  [Like 20th century
>Alaska and 20th century England,  rather than 20th century America and
>4th century America.]

The English legal system doesn't make any sense to me (nor did it make
sense to Charles Dickens or to many of those unfortunates condemned to
live under it, especially with it's arcane rules on house sales) and I'm
right next door. Phil McGregor has already expressed the common baffle-
ment of us "damn foreigners" with US political culture. Almost all US TV
humour leaves me yawning, and no doubt a great deal of the dross that
amuses me (my current favourite being the Fast Show; brilliant !)
wouldn't play well in Peoria. And we all share a common language and
much common history. Imagine what 1000 years of almost total separation
would do !

As for Domain supercultures, the mechanism whereby these could arise
baffles me. What will bring the disparate cultures of Massilia towards a
Massilian superculture ? But I will accept that the regions colonised
under the Third Imperium (and especially Behind the Claw) would be more
culturally homogenous, having a thousand years less to diverge.

The Vilani, I grant, are supposedly innately conservative, thus
predicating a much greater degree of cultural consistency on worlds
heavily settled by the Ziru Sirka. But many Vilani worlds were
supposedly devastated by the plagues and lost almost all contact with
their past, being culturally overwhelmed by Solomani rulers and
settlers. On the whole I will agree that much of the Vilani Cultural
Region will probably be quite alike. But there the common language is
Vilani, not Galanglic.

<snip>

>Of course not - if we were really trying to build a 1000-year-old
>spacefaring culture, set in the 57th century!
>However, not even Dave Neilson was trying to do that (see the back of
>Hiver and Ihthur, were he sneers at "earnestly building the real
>future"). Moreover, the Imperium was meant as a "anyone can play here"
>environment,  and was never properly thought out.  As people wrote
>material for the  Imperium, their writings naturally (if lazily)
>assumed that the Imperium  was a lot like the 20th century.

Anyway, at the risk of being a complete schmuck : why aren't we trying
to build a culture in the Imperium ? What are the RICE papers for
(yourself a major contributor) if the Imperium is just Yanks in Space ?
Neither Vilani &Vargr nor Solomani & Aslan nor Darrians nor Droyne nor
the JTAS nor an awful lot of stuff assumes what you are asserting Nilsen
meant in his rambling conclusions to Sneaks & Geeks (and having just re-
read it it just seemed like word soup to me).

>Building a Real Imperial Culture is WORK - and neither Marc Miller nor
>Dave Neilson nor Lorean Wiseman ever put in the sweat equity to build
>it.

No ? Arent't the wilds in SAG and PoT "somewhere else", aren't the
worlds described in detail over the years "somewhere else" ?

There is a great deal of evidence to support the idea of cultural
diversity in the Imperium and surrounds and very little at all - a few
sentences at most - to support the idea of Yanks in Space.

Finally, a word from our late sponsors ...

El juego de rol de cienca ficcion clasico ! tambien en espanol ! ..
Traveller. Aventuras de cienca ficcion en un futuro distante.
(GDW advert, Challenge 49)

Somehow I don't think that "Yanks in Space" was how it was sold in Spain
or how the Finnish, Italian, Japanese or German language editions (did
all of these exist ?) were plugged or played.

Angus


Ah! race d'Abel, ta charogne engraissera le sol fumant!
Race de Cain, ta besogne n'est pas faite suffisament;
Race d'Abel, voici ta honte: le fer est vaincu par l'epieu!
Race de Cain, au ciel monte et sur la terre jette Dieu!

Baudelaire, Les Fleurs du Mal, Abel et Cain

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 608
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 609

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Traveller morality, culture and society (longish) by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  2) cuddly autocracies and mediaeval peasants... by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  3) Politics by Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
  4) Black Curtain by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
  5) The Ugly American Speaks! by "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
  6) Language in the 57th Century by Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
  7) Re: Simon's Glorious Program by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  8) Re: Solomani Rim War by Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
  9) Solomani Rim Sector Analysis by Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 10) ATTENTION ROB PRIOR! by peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 11:57:00 PST
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: tml <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Traveller morality, culture and society (longish)
Message-ID: <312E1C8D@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>


Alvin Plummer wrote:

>n my design for the Empty Quarter, I've been planing to create a
>six-subsector police force.  Since I have previously established that the
>Imperium DOES have a single, Judeo-Christian morality (See Hiver &
>Ikthur, Regency Sourcebook),

I find this a bit of a problem. Some 38 centuries later, with a varied and
scattered humaniti, with the discovery that there are alien races, with
the discovery that humaniti's destiny has been influenced by the
Ancients (a la Erich von Daniken!), with the fact that Terran Judeo-
Christianity (itself only one aspect of 20th century Terran culture...)
would have been intermingled with whatever religious and cultural
outlook the Vilanis had, with all the cultural intermingling and
mutation that will have taken place in such a varied context -
after all this, the morality of 20th century US/Europe is the
dominant moral force in the Imperium?

I find it quite ironic that there are endless (although, I hasten to
add, interesting and informative, esp. to a non-scientist like
myself) debates on TML/XBoat about the scientific veracity of
various parts of the Traveller canon - jump flashes, anti-matter,
bombardment with rocks, jump torps, inertialess drives
etc etc., and woe betide anyone who makes a mistake in
their calculations, or who gets their neutrinos mixed up with their
bosons, because somebody will correct them, sharp-ish.
There is an obvious concern to get the technology right, even
when we are reduced to speculating what the technology of
the far future may be.  I think that there is a common vision of
what the technology <should> be like, and debate centres
around how best to achieve consistency within that overall
framework.

However, this concern for <realism> does not always seem
to extend to the less technological aspects of the Traveller
universe.  I personally (and I stress this is my personal
opinion, if yours differs, please let us know what it is)
find some of the assumptions of the social and cultural
aspects of the Imperium to be rather dodgy.

OK, lets get this out of the way now - in no way do I intend
the following to be construed as being anti-American.  If
anyone takes offence, please e-mail me and I will try and
explain better what I mean, because this is NOT intended
to cause offence.  I find the assumption which is implicit
within TNE (I feel it exists much less in CT) that the
future some 3000 years hence is a macrocosm of
20th century US society to be staggeringly unrealistic,
and to show no grasp of the processes of history.

All the RC materials which I have read seem to me to
be particularly guilty of this.  Much of it reads like an
episode of the A-Team with spaceships.

The  culture of the US, and a Judeo-Christian morality,
are without doubt the dominant cultural paradigm at
the end of the 20th century.  The US <is> truly the world's
only superpower, militarily, economically, and, for
good or for bad, culturally. However, some 120-200
years ago, the undoubted superpower was Great
Britain.  At its height the British Empire probably had
more influence on the world than the US does now.
British culture was the dominant force within the world.
Now, less than 2 centuries later, the UK is a small
island uncertain whether or not to integrate further
with the rest of Europe, uncertain of its role in the
world, with an influence still out of proportion to its
size, but not a superpower by any definition.  The
history of humanity is the history of the rise and fall
of empires and the cultures and societies
associated with them.  True, these societies feed
into the ones that are built on their ashes - our society
and culture is influenced by that of the Ancient Greeks
without a doubt - yet no-one would argue that we have
a Hellenistic culture.

The culture of TNE, whether RC or Regency doesn't,
IMHO, <feel> different, it doesn't <feel> alien to us in
some ways, which I think it should. I'm sure our culture
would feel alien to a Neolithic tribesman.  There is less
of a gap, both chronologically and in terms of technology,
than there is between us now and the 3rd Imperium and
beyond.  I appreciate that there has to be some kind
of moral and cultural hook which we can hang on to, but
I feel that in most accounts of the Imperium or the RC,
this hook is <too> dominant. Some of the best things
I've seen posted to this list are the RICE papers which
detail worlds which are different, with different social
customs and mores to our own.  Apart from being
interesting reading and excellent works of creativity,
these make me feel that I am reading about a
Universe which is different from our own, a quality
which is in my opinion shared by the best science fiction.
I feel that it lets these down to then assume that the
interstellar framework within which these individual
worlds exist is something ho hum and familiar.

It seems a shame if such creative energy is poured
into this universe, and such great attempts are made to
give it internal consistency, yet the very bedrock on
which the Traveller universe is built, the myriad of
interstellar societies, cultures and customs, is left
as a rather cursory analogue of our own, with a few
bits of Roman history thrown in.

Perhaps the <newness> of the Imperium is to be
found in this protective <warm, fuzzy> nature of the
Imperium that has been discussed on the list
a lot recently.  I have studied international relations
through degree and masters level, and it's
certainly not like any large hegemonic empire
I've ever come across ;-)

You can all wake up now.

Cheers

Iain..........................iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 12:21:00 PST
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: tml <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: cuddly autocracies and mediaeval peasants...
Message-ID: <312E21BD@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>



Sorry, I wasn't going to post anything else after my long post, but
I couldn't resist this.

Alvin P wrote...

>Voting isn't the only way to hold a government accountable for it's
>actions, Mr. McLullan!  The typical labourer in Elizabethian England was
>much more free from government rules and regulations that someone in
>modern England.  Please, at least read the history books before insisting
>that all autocracy's are, by definition, evil!

Hmmm.  Much more free from government rules and regulations?
Perhaps.  Much more free? I doubt it.  Don't forget that the employer
of the typical Elizabethan labourer was also free of those pesky
annoying rules and regulations such as health and safety rules.
If workers protested against the conditions in which they worked
then they could probably expect to be treated pretty brutally.
Freedom from regulation does not <necessarily> equate to
freedom.  I'd rather be a labourer in Liz 2's England than in
Liz 1's.  Evil is a rather contentious word, but I would argue that
all autocracies are by definition immoral, and that in order to
sustain themselves they usually have to commit evil acts.
Look at, umm, the whole of history.  I guess if we go on with this
more we maybe ought to take it to e-mail.  Still, it shows what a
varied and polymathic bunch the TML'ers are. From the FTL
potentials of small objects to working conditions in Elizabethan
times...

Regards

Iain..........................................iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:00:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Politics
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD.3.91.960223075825.5351A-100000@epicycle.lm.com>

Can we keep political debate off list please?  I'll admit that it has
*some* relavance to Traveller from a sociological standpoint, but it does
not merit the many paragraphs devoted to it recently.  It is also a
*great* way to start a flame war.

Thanks for (some) great reading so far, going back into lurk mode now.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/
http://home.fish.net.au/~elric/

'No! Do...or do not...there is no *try*' --Yoda
_______________________________________________________


------------------------------

Date:          Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:03:40 MDT
From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Black Curtain
Message-ID: <BE414076E7@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>

What are the black curtain and the Empress Wave?
Dan the Humble
(and don't you forget it!)
walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:39:40 -0600
From: "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: The Ugly American Speaks!
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960223153940.0069f18c@pop.interaccess.com>

[stuff about American vs. Australian "rightists" deleted]

>>  Most people have no objection to unemployment benefits; we tend to
>>  view them as _insurance_ - and I don't think that there's a state
>>  in the country that doesn't have restrictions similar in principle
>>  to New York State - you must have worked for some specified
>>  portion of the prior year; the benefits stop after some smaller
>>  portion of the year; the benefit amount is keyed to the salary of
>>  the most recent job.  In NY, you work for a year, and get six
>>  months of benefits at half your last salary, to a limit of $350
>>  per week (or at least those were the numbers when I last applied,
>>  three years ago).

>In Oz (and, so I gather, in many European countries) Unemployment Benefits are
>regarded as a *right* ... if the government cannot manage the economy well
>enough to provide for close to full employment for all, then I think most
>Australians agree that they have a responsibility to provide for a basic
>standard of living for those who cannot find work. There *are* those who do
>seem to subscribe to the views that you describe below, but, by and large, they
>have never had a serious hold on most people's attitudes to such things. There
>are constant whinges about "dole bludgers" ... but they almost always seem to
>be "other people" ... just like many Germans and the Jews, the ones they knew
>*personally* were OK, it was the ones that Hitler kept telling them about, you
>know, the Zionist Bankers and the like, not Mr. Goldblum in the flat next door.

Having lived in Europe and the USA, I can make an anecdotal observation
here: Phil is essentially correct. In Europe, the idea that it is OK to
scare citizens with the spectre of "welfare cheats" is ridiculous (sic).
People I knew saw the dole as another tool for income, basically as their
right. This points up the difference in the two positions; in the USA, the
dole is something you receive until you get a "real job" (whatever that
means); in Europe, the dole is seen as an end in itself.

>>  Most people don't have an objection \per se\ to programs like Food
>>  Stamps or AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) - we
>>  object to having no controls on those programs, so that recipients
>>  can casually buy lobster and filet and soda and potato chips and
>>  pretzels and Swiss and French chocolate, while the taxpayers
>>  shopping in the same supermarket have to choose whether to buy a
>>  roast for one day or chicken cutlets for two days, and maybe we'll
>>  get the Hershey bars next week.  Worse, these people get the
>>  change from their food stamps in _cash_ - so that after buying the
>>  pretzels, they can go into the liquor store around the corner and
>>  buy scotch.

>See above.

Let me say that I doubt *anyone* on the dole in America can buy lobster,
etc. on the basic amounts received from welfare. In any case, what concern
is it of ours? If welfare truly is insurance, do we carp when someone spends
their husband's life insurance on something besides the funeral? Also,
trading food stamps for cash is *illegal*. Not to say that it doesn't
happen, but it certainly isn't part of the government's policy on welfare.

[stuff about responsibility and voting deleted]

>Of course, in Europe they do not have compulsory voting, either, but they *do*
>have a strong social welfare system, courtesy of the eurocommunists, and even
>the "ruling classes" still have the tradition of "nobless oblige" that those of
>the US may have lost, if the theory that I was describing holds any water at
>all.

Phil, I would be interested to hear you views (re: Traveller, of course) as
to "noblesse oblige" and Australia. I don't know Australian history, but
have you such a tradition? Is it inherited from the UK? Home-grown? Would a
planet with a Rep. Democracy have such traditions simply from being a member
of the Imperium (Tech. Feudalism)? A planet with no nobility (as defined by
the Imperium) or noble tradition would not have such a feeling of "noblesse
oblige". Or would it from Imperial contact?

>  The problem that we have with Eurosocialism is not the high taxes
>  \per se\, although that does tend to turn us off - it's the idea
[stuff about taxes->infrastructure and US politics deleted]

I disagree. That *is* the problem. US tax rates are some of the lowest in
the world (even including the Third World). I'm not sure where my stats are
on this, but I can find them if necessary. To boot, we Americans are
clamoring for *lower* taxes. The burden of lower taxes will fall on the
poorest, since their tax relief will be less than the more wealthy classes.
For example, if taxes in the USA fall to 0%, the poorest don't benefit (they
already aren't paying anything) and the richest get a huge benefit. However,
the poor take a big hit on welfare, since it goes away (no money!).

>You see, practical evidence is against your own system being all that great.
>*We* don't have decaying inner cities spotted with what are basically free
>fire zones for drug gangs (OK, I'm sure both your *and* our media exaggerate
>here!); there is no huge underclass (though we're not perfect, there *is* an
>underclass, but they *seem* to have a better chance and a better "fair go"
>than the US *seems* to offer hers); education is free and pretty much equal
>for all ... no metal detectors needed to prevent weapons being brought into
>*our* schools, not much violence therein, either ... certainly nothing like
>the scale that allegedly exists in the US, and no sort of major drug problem
>(Im speaking from experience in the latter part, I've been a High School
>teacher for twenty years, and, in that time, having taught in country schools,
>working class areas *and* upper-middle class areas, I have seen, literally,
>less than a *handful* of drug cases at school); we don't have walled off
>"private" suburbs with razor wire and armed guards keeping out said "recipient
>classes", either. No, we're far from perfect, but we *seem* to have a better
>handle on social policy things than the US *seems* to have.

I also must point out here that many of our (the USA's) problems have
nothing to do with economic systems whatsoever. Societal factors rule to a
much greater extent than anyone (especially us) want to admit. I think that
this is true in Traveller as well. If you have lower classes due to societal
factors (e.g. race, religion, etc.) on a world, that world will suffer more
such problems as you put forth, regardless of "noblesse oblige" or
economics. Also, let's not forget that "noblesse oblige" (at least, the
English model) came from the English class system. That system was, IMHO,
one of the more arbitrary systems for favoring one class at the expense of
others.  I won't even get into French nobility. Let's just say that there
was a reason for 1789. Is it possible that the dole was put into place, not
from any beneficent "noblesse oblige", but instead to tell the lower classes
to "know their place", provide them with an reason to do so, and keep them
there? Just speculating, here. After all, one with "noblesse oblige" never
*needs* to take the dole.

>>  This has nothing to do with Traveller.  Followups to private mail,
>>  please.

>Well, actually, it does. I'm trying to make the point that it is at least as
>likely that some form of "eurosocialist" government is going to run many high
>tech, high population, worlds as it is that some extreme Thatcherite/Reaganite
>style laissez faire capitalist system will. Given that, then it seems likely
>that the people on many (if not most) such worlds will, as I suggested, quite
>probably have a work week *much* shorter than that which exists here and now,
>in *both* our countries. While such social issues are mostly ignored in
>Traveller, the potential for impacts on all aspects of the "world of the
>future" are much greater than Miller et al have been heretofore prepared to
>allow for.

This is certainly possible. But the rules, as written, seem to favor a more
capitalistic model (in an American game? No! :)). After all, if I have a
Belter, and he/she strikes it rich, they get a windfall. Also, a world as
based on trade as the Traveller universe must have some pretty sophisticated
markets in place. It has been shown (of course, by American economists),
that capitalism produces the most efficient markets of the currently known
government types.

Anyhow, just my 2Cr worth.

Thanks,
John A. King
jking @interaccess.com

"Scientists are Peeping Toms at the keyhole of eternity."
- Arthur Koestler


------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 96 10:31:31 MS
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Language in the 57th Century
Message-ID: <9602231744.AA10160@khan.avalon.COM>

Angus McClellan did write:
>So in the hundred plus years before contact and the millennium of the
>Long Night there have been no changes in language ? Seems highly
>improbable. My personal feeling is that by the C30th Murkin and Stralian
>will be different languages and not just dialects. Now some RP version
>of the language - Court Galanglic - might exist, but that'll be
>restricted to the aristos, wannabes and poseurs. The military will need
>to employ a standard Galanglic, but the obvious analog - Austro-
>Hungary's pre-WWI Army German - suggests a language of limited
>vocabulary and brutalised construction. Translating the Collected Works
>of Shakespeare into Imperial Military Galanglic or A-H Army German seems
>like a lost cause. And given moderately efficient translation software
>there seems not to be a pressing problem with this language divergence
>where cultural interchanged is concerned.

I'm not so sure that the languages with be as variegated as all that.  Look at
English, for example:  not really a very old language, but it has expanded
rapidly.  If you look at Chaucer's Cantebury Tales in the original script, it
is nearly unintelligible to your typical modern English reader.  Skip ahead a
few hundred years and get a copy of Shakespeare.  Some things in there look odd
to your typical modern English reader, but most of the text is understandable,
and the reader actually gets some of the jokes.  A good amount of development
in that time period, but in that time period literacy was limited, and regions
were very isolated from one another.  Now zip ahead to the 1800s; literacy
begins booming in the US and UK.  Lots of books begin to appear, there are
daily newspapaers to educate the masses, and government records are largely
available to one and all.  As literacy has expanded, the changes in the
*structure* of English have slowed or stopped.  There are still changes,
though; regional dialects bring in new ways of pronouncing things, and foreign
languages occasionally contribute a new term.

OK, now bounce ahead to 1920.  Suddenly, radio, records and movies are a very
big thing.  Suddenly, all of these formerly isolated regional groups are being
presented with a common way of pronouncing things.  The regional dialects
remain, but now more than ever they are reduced to regional accents.  As these
three media expand, and gow to include TV, the effect becomes even more
pronounced.  In the UK, suddenly everyone is learning to speak BBC English.  In
the US, kids are drawing a significant level of language skills from TV shows
like Sesame Street or even the evening news.

As things contine through the Traveller history, this trend also continues.
The sheer volume of printed or recorded speech continues to grow, and continues
to be the basis of the language education for future youth.  As other nations
begin to grow economically, tehre will likely be more foreign language terms
being adopted, but the structure of the language will remain largely
unchanged.  The basic vocabulary will be added to, but the bulk of the words
will remain the same.  There will me many different worlds settled by
English-speaking cultures, but they will have already inherited the "language
legacy" in the form of the recordings needed to operate and educate their
society.  They will continue to get more and more such material via
interstellar trade; an isolated planet in the 57th Century is goinmg to get
more information (thanks to computers) from one starship visit than an isolated
11th Centruy rural village might get from 10 years of contact with itinerant
traders and tinkers.   Mr. 57th Century will have no idea what a Washboard is,
but he will know what a board is, and what Wash means.  The things that change
will be the "slang," but that is generally an addition to the basic langauge,
not a replacement.

Steven Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 09:19 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Simon's Glorious Program
Message-ID: <m0tq3y9-0002hgC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>


Easy on the "Simon's Glorious Program" bit Armand <g>. It's still vapourware at
this stage. I'll take all the kudos ( or otherwise ) when it goes to beta.

>From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
>Simon (simonm@ramhb.co.nz) asks for comments and requests for his program.
>I am interested.  I don't know how involved you plan to make the program,
>but I have a few suggestions.


>Include all the hard-science and detail you can handle, with the option of
>disabling it for those who don't think it's necessary.
>For example:
>1.  Stelllar/system data for a system is used in a newtonian-type simulation
>of orbits.  It shows the system graphically and can be used to provide
>travel times between planets and to the safe zone for jump (users would
>input the maneuver drive and fuel of their ship).  The simulation need not
>be graphics-intensive.  A simple mathematical model with colored dots and so
>on would do.  The starting positions of the planets could be random or
>stored by the program for the next time the system is visited.  See the
>shareware program "Newton" for Windows for an example (programmer:  Paul
>Keet, 12726 Southridge Dr., Surrey, B.C., Canada, V3X 3C6).  Planets other
>than the main world are not in the system profile, but nothing stops you
>from randomly generating it, and allowing users to input what they know from
>canon (i.e. Regina, Terra) and what they use in their campaign.  In my
>opinion, this is a great way to make use of the possibilites in Traveller
>system generation.  It saves lots of time in many ways.

Please expand this. I need to know what _use_ this information will be put to
before I consider the enormous amount of extra work this would entail. I'm a CT
ref myself, and haven't even seen the rules that generate all this hard science
stuff, so I don't have a full understanding of how it would fit into running a
game. And that's my main focus. If it makes the game more interesting for
players to adventure in then I'll look at it for release 2.0. If it's only of
interest to a few hard science boffins then they can stick to "Newton" ( if you
can see my point ).

>2.  Show the most advantageous trade routes (and also just what is the best
>system to sell cargo x for highest profit when speculating) by using the
>trade codes in the sector data.  This has been done on paper in a JTAS
>article before (but takes forever to calculate on paper).  Perfect for
>adding extra gaming practicality for players to your program.

This is very likely. I'm talking to another programmer about providing this
feature as either an add-on or as an integral part of the program. Software
mechanics will determine this ( DLLs might work to make it modular ).

>3.  Printout or the option to output data to a BMP/GIF or whatever would be
>nice.  I'd be happiest even if only the latter was possible; I can still
>print BMPs with other apps.

Yep. Some kind of output will be supported. Possibly BMP _and_ Printout.

>4.  As noted above, random world/system/sector generation.  Add the ability
>to preset some of the parameters so you don't have to press the randomize
>button a billion times to get what you want.

No. I won't be doing any sort of generation if I can avoid it. There are dozens
of generation programs out there, and more being mooted every day. My intention
is to allow users to import and display the output of those programs.

>5.  Can't think of more right now, I hope my wish list isn't too demanding.

Well, it was fairly comprehensive. I think the beta test programme will sort out
whats absolutely necessary from whats simply pretty.

> Oh, and please make it runable with Win 95.  (Was that a stupid thing to
>say?)

For maximum portability purposes this program will be written for Windows 3.1 so
it will run on Win 95 ( I'm using Win 95 myself ).

Simon.



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:34:24 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim War
Message-ID: <199602232334.RAA20127@olive.itlabs.umn.edu>

angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:

> (*7) While sources (e.g. TD9, MTIE Emperor's List) suggest that Styryx
> was incompetent it isn't necessarily true. Note that under Gavin's rule
> the Imperium fails to defeat the Solomani. Perhaps there is further
> information on this in Invasion: Earth, regrettably I don't have it.

Invasion: Earth blames Styryx for the escalation that led to the SRW, and
for mismanaging the preparations for war.  Among other things, he created
the Vegan Autonomous District in the core of the Solomani Sphere *before*
the war started.  The government intended to use it as a counterweight to
Solomani power, but somehow was stupid enough not to realize that it would
just infuriate the Solomani.  DGP noted that Styryx was forced to abdicate
at the point of a gun after the Imperium so badly lost the 3FW, and the
two events triggered the SRW.  Gavin had to try to work with preparations
that Styryx had made, or failed to make.

Worse yet, after suffering the horrible peace treaty with the Zhodani, the
Imperium had to face an even bigger, more brutal war in the Rim -- in fact,
this may have something to do with why the 3FW went so poorly.  Estimates
of Solomani population in the 1100s suggest that in population, the Sphere
may have been half to two-thirds the size of the entire Imperium without it,
due to the fact that sector population density goes up in Solomani space.
I suspect that the rimward parts of the Confederation are less dense than
the coreward, and the Imperium seems to have had a slight technological
advantage -- the worlds in Massilia that were tech-16 in 1115 were almost
certainly tech-15 during the Solomani Rim War.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil0015@itlabs.umn.edu>



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:36:49 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Solomani Rim Sector Analysis
Message-ID: <199602232336.RAA20134@olive.itlabs.umn.edu>

For whatever it's worth:

SOLOMANI RIM Analysis, circa 1115.

Third Imperium (not including the VAD)
  279 worlds
  Average TL enjoyed by populace: 13.9
  Approximate Population: 1.25 trillion
  Fraction of Sector Population: 3/4
  Population density: 4.48

  There are eight tech-15 worlds with a class-A starport and a population in
  the tens of billions -- four, Terra, Dingir, Lagash, and Sebasta are in or
  very near the old Solomani core.

Solomani Confederation
  91 worlds
  Average TL enjoyed by populace: 13.3
  Approximate Population: 270 billion
  Fraction of Sector Population: 1/6
  Population density: 2.96

  They have no major tech-15 worlds, and only three tech-14, class-A starport,
  very high population worlds, all in the Bootean Federation.  While this
  region looks sparse here, in the Domain of Deneb it would be considered to
  be quite advanced technologically and densely settled.

Vegan Autonomous District (Third Imperium)
  30 worlds
  Average TL enjoyed by populace: 14.9
  Approximate Population: 174 billion
  Fraction of Sector Population: 1/10
  Population density: 5.80

  An astonishingly sophisticated region nominally under Imperial control, and
  vital strategically to the Imperial presence in the sector.  Three-quarters
  of the population of the VAD is crowded onto four tech-15, class-A starport
  worlds, three of which are Vegan and one of which is human.

TOTAL sector statistics (all allegiances, all worlds):
  400 worlds
  Average TL enjoyed by populace: 13.9
  Approximate Population: 1.69 trillion
  Population density: 4.23

As usual, population density is a measure of what the population of each world
would be, were the entire population of the region analysed spread evenly among
all worlds in the region, in billions.  Given 9000 systems in the Imperium, and
a total population of fifteen and three-quarter trillion, we get an average
Imperial population density of 1.75, so this sector is much denser than is
usual.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonn0015@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 20:58:38 -0500
From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: ATTENTION ROB PRIOR!
Message-ID: <199602240158.UAA07367@mars.superlink.net>

Sorry for the wasted bandwidth, but I couldn't contact Rob directly.

Rob: When I tried to mail you the other night my POP server had fits for
some odd reason.  Do you have an alternate address?
       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]
  _] "Those who fail to learn from histor                           _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 609
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 610

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 608 by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  2) CG and Orbital Mechanics by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  3) Simon's Glorious Vaporware by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
  4) Canonical Sector Names by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
  5) Mass Drivers and Balance by prashid@mindspring.com (Princess Simpson)
  6) RC worlds & RICE Papers by fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  7) Grand strategy for fleets by Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
  8) Culture, Hermann Goering by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
  9) Traveller, Technology, Im by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
 10) Re: Grand strategy for fleets by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
 11) Re: Grand strategy for fleets by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 12) Re: Grand strategy for fleets by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
 13) Re Language in the C57th by angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
 14) Re: Law and Justice in the Imperium by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 23:17:12 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 608
Message-ID: <199602241217.XAA24557@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

Whoops!

I *ABJECTLY* apologise in a *HUMONGOUSLY* big way ... somehow I managed to hit
the wrong key and send what *SHOULD* have been a direct and *PRIVATE* reply (as
requested) re society in traveller etc. to the general mailing list. What can
I say but that I grovel unreservedly? And next time I'll make double damn sure
it doesn't happen (if I can figure out what I did wrong, this is the second
time its happened to me).

Again, I apologise *BIG TIME* ... the remarks were *not* intended to waste any
bandwidth (even tho the last few lines are, perhaps, on topic)

Phil McGregor

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 03:10:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: CG and Orbital Mechanics
Message-ID: <3JVsJD5w165w@krypton.rain.com>

merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) writes:

>> Wrong. What you have up there looks like a formula for tidal
>> acceleration.
>>
>> The formula is:
>>
>>      G*M*m
>> F = -------
>>       R^2
>
>Um, shouldn't the R be distance to the center of mass of the system?

Nope. What you see up there is the law of gravity as originally
formulated by Newton, and still valid unless the masses or velocities
get *really* extreme.

>These objects _are_ in orbit around the center of mass, it's just that
>one of them (presumably) is unbound.

But that has no bearing on the *force* between them. The could be
passing by each other at 1% of c, and the force would be the same.

>I see your point regarding grav. vs. inertial mass for CG calculations
>though... odd way to think :-)

Not really. In fact, physicists have gone to considerable trouble to
try and determine whether inertial mass and gavitational mass are the
same thing. So far, they've proved that they are identical to at least
1 part in 10 to the 23rd or so...


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 23:25:03 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Simon's Glorious Vaporware
Message-ID: <01BB030F.5A791CA0@ppp063.on.rim.or.jp>

A> = me, S> = Simon

A>Planets other than the main world are not in the system profile, but
nothing stops you
A>from randomly generating it, and allowing users to input what they know
from
A>canon (i.e. Regina, Terra) and what they use in their campaign.  In my
A>opinion, this is a great way to make use of the possibilites in Traveller

A>system generation.  It saves lots of time in many ways.

S>Please expand this. I need to know what _use_ this information will be put
to
S>before I consider the enormous amount of extra work this would entail.

Basically this is the biggest use for it (yes, I repeat myself):
A>1.  Stelllar/system data for a system is used in a newtonian-type
simulation
A>of orbits.  It shows the system graphically and can be used to provide
A>travel times between planets and to the safe zone for jump (users would
A>input the maneuver drive and fuel of their ship).

As you know, planets aren't always in conjunction, so a model of their
orbits and where they are at present is necessary (I think) to compute
travel times.  The graphics are just to help the user visualize the system.
 With HePLaR (sic) and the slowing of intra-system travel in TNE, computing
travel time becomes increasingly important.  The characters may have to make
an in-system jump to get from the gas giant to the mainworld, for example,
if the travel time by maneuver drive is greater than a week or so.  This
whole thing about travel time could be important to gamers because it would
tell them quickly how much game time they have to use in a system doing
certain things, and how much fuel they need to procure or buy.  It would
save on the bookkeeping and math that slows the game when the facts become
necessary.  I assume that would be often, if the characters travel a lot.  I
think others can think of more reasons.

Also as you know, the system data, other than homeworld/star data, is not in
the sector data you're talking about using in your program.  Incorporating a
random/selective generator for this info will quickly make it available to
players.  If the program saved the data, then it could be reused, and the
players would be able to flesh out their gaming area of whatever sector in
an easy and consistent way.  Most of this info has not been published
officially, so you wouldn't have any canon-violations.  Those very few
systems that have been published could be inputted directly by the user if
needed.  The extra info your program would generate would enrich a campaign.
 I would be happy because it would allow me to easily take advantage of the
extra background info I could give the players, and I could use the info to
flesh out my adventures.  Now, I don't generate systems much because it's so
time consuming.

The reason I think you should incorporate this into your program is because
it would take the data from prepublished sectors one level higher, so to
speak.  Your program would read the available sector data and then, when
called for, flesh out the system quickly and easily for players to use in
their campaign.  It would make the sector data even more useful.

Another idea:  The trade codes for mainworlds can also be applied to the
rest of the planets in the system.  In that way, you can compute the best
trade routes not only among mainworlds, but also including the available
planets in those systems.  You could even compute the best trade route
within a system.  This would expand the options of players running
merchantile operations.

The rules used to generate all the information I speak of were first made
available in the Scouts book for CT.  Currently, you can find the info for
TNE in the main book and in World Tamer's Handbook.  Absolutely all the
information you need is there in the form of charts and random die roll
tables.  This information and the sector data might change in format, for
all I know, with the release of the new Traveller edition, whenever that
happens.

S>There are dozens of generation programs out there, and more being mooted
every day. My S>intention is to allow users to import and display the output
of those programs.

For example, which programs and where can I get them?  I haven't seen any.
 I'd like it if they ran in Windows.

Does anybody know if the Traveller sector data/rule hypertext program that
GDW was advertising for TNE recently ever became a reality?  Is it any good?
 Is it still being sold?  Where can I get it?

- Armand


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 12:17:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Canonical Sector Names
Message-ID: <8BB62E1.140001A5E9.uuout@almac.co.uk>



Perhaps someone privy to the arcane secrets of the HIWG would be kind
enough to answer a couple of little questions.

Is there an Imperial/Vilani name for either Fa Dzaets or Gzaekfueg
sectors (immediately to coreward of Windhorn and Meshan respectively) ?
Likewise for Ogzuekhfos sector (immediately trailing of Trenchan).

Answers gratefully received !

Angus

"The capitals are rocked with thunder
Of Orators in wordy feuds.
But in the depths of Russia yonder,
An age-old silence broods.

Nekrassov, "Russia".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 10:59:22 -0600
From: prashid@mindspring.com (Princess Simpson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Mass Drivers and Balance
Message-ID: <199602241559.KAA07590@borg.mindspring.com>

Just a little thought on mass drivers and play balance.
People have been saying how a TL 11-12 MD can outclass higher tech high energy
weapons.

I dont think that its right to use discarding sabot modifiers for mass driver Pen
calculations as there is no sabot to discard.

DS rounds use the light sabot so that the guns energy for a CPR gun is transferred
to a smaller more aerodynamic dart.  The muzzle energy is dependent on the propellant
only.   However since v=SQRT(2*(Kinetic Energy)/m) and m is smaller v is larger.
Thus greater penetration compared to say a ball round.

However mass drivers are defined by velocity not energy (at least in FFS)
The way FF&S does is to treat all guns equally regardless of type.

What I do for balance is to not use DS multipliers but still use multipliers
for increased
hardness of high tech materiels.
Just look at the table, I use the HVAP multiplier as the basis for MD rounds
and figure out
what the multiplier would be for increased hardness of the penetrator.

You may not agree but it makes sense to me and I use it.

I think its quite legitimate.




Tariq Rashid


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 10:52:09 -0600
From: fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: RC worlds & RICE Papers
Message-ID: <199602241652.KAA28899@osh1.datasync.com>

Has anyone figured the stellar/survey data on the RC worlds using World
Tamers Handbook?  If so, I would like to get a copy of the data to work up
the economic model of some of the worlds.  If not, I will post data when I
get it done.

On a related line, are there any RICE equivalent papers for the RC.  If so,
I would like to see them.  If not, I would like a copy of the RICE Paper
format to start writing some.


Thanks in advance!!

Paul  {tiger}

"54-40 or Fight!" - TBWSK


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 21:26:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Grand strategy for fleets
Message-ID: <199602242026.VAA25575@skade.diku.dk>

Craig Berry writes:
>Yes, no admiral would *want* to arrive anywhere with less than full tanks.
>Heck, given a choice in the matter, any admiral would also prefer that the
>opposing fleet self-destruct when painted with targeting lasers, or better
>still, just before his fleet arrives in-system.

The two examples are not comparables. An admiral dosen't have the choice of
having his opponents self-destruct; he does usually have a choice about how
he jumps around.

>[...] admirals end up forced by circumstances to fight in suboptimal
>battles.  A vastly conservative admiral, who never travels without
>topping off the tanks, never takes an "all eggs in one basket" gamble,
>is a real asset (usually) on the defending side.  On the offense, this
>type of admiral quite frankly does miserably.

I suppose we really need the imput of someone who has run a lot of TCS
campaigns. I admit that I've only seen things from the side of a guy planning
a couple of fleets. The possibly disastrous consequences of jumping dry into
an enemy system (total loss of your whole fleet) seems to me to outweigh most
potential gains from gaining an extra parsec once in a while (obviously
arguments must be in quite general terms when we don't know the specific
stellar neighbourhood).

>Traveller technology rewards initiative and rapid movement; the slow speed
>of intelligence (equal to the potential rate of advance) means that it's
>easy to launch devastating surprise attacks.

But you only have to mess up one time to loose when you play it that way. A
cautious admiral can run away and fight another day.

>And given that the defender has a built-in advantage in an even battle
>(prepared positions, full tanks, SDBs, etc.), the only way for the attacker
>to win strategically is to concentrate his forces into a few massive
>assaults, and hope to (a) win big and (b) redeploy the fleets to cover the
>resulting gaping holes in his own lines before the defender can react.

But how can he win big when, as you say, the defenders fleet is tanked up
and able to flee if the attacker is too strong?

>Often, this means hitting deep -- doing long jumps past the "front line"
>worlds, which will be most heavily defended, and hitting a rear area. And
>in these circumstances, the attacking fleet will often arrive with
>distressingly dry tanks.

As long as you arrive with fuel enough for a jump-1 you can get away
(assuming you're not playing with the ability to track jumping ships).
I always like to spend my peacetime days laying out massive deepspace fuel
depots. One of those babys close to an enemy planet can do wonders for
your offensive.

>>Believe me, once you've had your forces chewed up a fifth at a time trying
>>to defend your whole system, you'll concentrate your defensive forces on
>>defending the mainworld.
>
>There's a lot to be said for never letting the attacker relax.  I agree,
>the bulk of forces will be deployed to defend the mainworld; but a few
>SDBs and the odd escort tucked away in a GG can have a seriously
>unnerving effect. For one thing, it forces the attacker to squander time
>and resources "cleaning" the GGs if he wants them as refueling points.

Either you use only a few, which means the opponent can toast them with only
a few of his own ships, or you leave a sizable number, in which case the
opponent will destroy a sizable amount of your assets. It may be cost-
effective in so far as you'll destroy more ships than you lose, but the
ships left in the Gas Giant must be manned by suicide crews.

Also, the attacker can concentrate on cleaning out one bit of the Gas Giant
(those are big suckers, after all) which means that only a tiny fraction
of the ships hiding in the Gas Giant will ever get a chance at an enemy
ship (hmmm... OK, perhaps the crews dosen't have to be suicidal. A 1 in
(how many? 10? 20?) chance of being in the area the attacker actually uses
aren't bad odds for survival.)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 20:08:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Culture, Hermann Goering
Message-ID: <8BB64B8.140001A624.uuout@almac.co.uk>


Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca> writes
Subject: A) New Germany B) Imperial cops: Empty Quarter

>Otherwise, I am simply wrong, as such a slaughter would be against the
>essentually 20th century mores of the Imperium.  (As I described in my
>previous post).  Sorry, Mr. McLullan - but I just NEED to be
>consistant!

Indeed, well more consistent than you are at spelling my name anyway.
If we put on our thinking hats for a moment ... the Nazis were
indubitably part of the mythical Judaeo-Christian cultural milieu, they
were C20th, so they are part of Alvin's putative Imperium-wide culture.

>In my design for the Empty Quarter, I've been planing to create a
>six-subsector police force.  Since I have previously established that
>the Imperium DOES have a single, Judeo-Christian morality (See Hiver &
>Ikthur, Regency Sourcebook), and since the Offical Imperium isn't
>an Evil Empire (See almost everything published by GDW or anyone else,
>and exclude posting by Mr McLullan), such an police force is necesary,
>and probably "standard equipment" for most Sector Dukes.

Well, call me picky, but I can't see whereabout in the RSB or Hivers &
Ithklur Dave Nilsen says "The Imperium is Yanks in Space" or something
remotely like that. If Alvin could provide page numbers, I could check
it up and, if need be, concede graciously. I have reread the material
briefly and can't find this magical sentence, but perhaps I've just
missed it. It wasn't wasted effort as Sneaks & Geeks did contain the
priceless words of unwisdom at the end of this post.

This brings a general point up :- Alvin's argument as a whole is based
on the assertion that the Imperium "isn't like that". I've suggested a
variety of sources that support my thesis, but there have been none
provided to support the Plummerite view. Without some evidence to the
contrary I see no reason to change my views in the least.

Look forward to a reply.

And Hermann Goering ? Fat Reichsmarschall "Call me Meyer" supposedly
said, "Whenever I hear the word culture, I reach for my revolver". Might
be a widely shared opinion on the list before too long.


Your humble and devoted servant,

Angus Merker McLellan


"To Ithklur it is immaterial what each person actually believes in, so
long as they believe in something. And belief, being a class which has
integrity, is by it's nature inherently good and true". Nilsen, Hivers &
Ithklur, p47, sidebar headed "Ithklur Aphorism".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 20:06:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller, Technology, Im
Message-ID: <8BB64B6.140001A623.uuout@almac.co.uk>



No, I haven't got anything better to do with my time today. It can't
make up it's mind outside if it's sleet, snow, rain or hail or any
combination of these. There's a real danger of getting my eye put out by
hailstones bouncing off the road if I go outside.

It's a pity that GDW hadn't picked an identical English and Spanish
subtitle for Traveller, "un futuro distante" which could be read as "a
far future" not the Englsh version's "the far future". That way all the
arguments about "realistic" technology could be demolished in the one
sentence :- "It's the future of a past that never was". Since
cosmologists are quite certain that hyperspace can't exist in the
Traveller form (and having just read Kip S. Thorne's Black Holes and
Times Warps I am on fairly firm ground. Basically, Thorne says that an
wormhole drive (Asimovian hyperdrive, Pournellian Alderson drive) might
just be possible with sufficiently advanced technology but a Traveller
style jump drive ain't), Traveller is set in not only in the/a future
but in a universe where different physical laws apply. So if one set of
laws is different, why not others ? Reactionless drives are possible
(insert pseudoscientific explanation of your choice), black globes are
real forcefields (ditto), neutrino detectors work und so weiter.

It seems a pitiful waste of effort, inevitably doomed to be proven wrong
within a few years of completion, to try and create "realistic" C57th
technology on the basis of our very limited understanding of the
universe. Even if the experts in every field were consulted (rather than
relying on pop science books and those a decade out of date - see the
biblio for FFS) we'd have no idea what the future could be like.

Stuff reality; let's have an internally consistent system that feels
right. There is no problem fussing over the mechanics of space flight -
that's all well understood. But wasting time worrying about meson guns
and jump projectors is pointless.

Finally, look at science fiction writing. Most would-be hard SF is
indigestible pap which concentrates on technology at the expense of plot
and character. Good soft SF concentrates on people. I would remind you
that roleplaying has (or should have) more in common with soft SF than
hard SF. The middle ground in SF is generally occupied by Space Opera,
of which David Weber's Honor Harrongton stuff strikes me as an above
average example in terms of internal consistency between plot and
technology. SO (not Phil's game, the genre as a whole) should be full of
fast action and larger than life characters. Same with an RPG. I don't
suppose that very many SF authors ever lost sleep over Heisenberg's
Uncertainty Principle or the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

** RANT MODE ON **
What we don't need is something filled with doom, gloom and porno-
graphic violence, as in the pathetic efforts of pimps like Drake and
Stirling. The latter's Draka books, of which Alvin Plummer mentioned
Drakon - hopefully the last ever - as an example of technology in SF in
his missive to Mark in TML606, being just about the most unspeakably
tasteless and badly written rubbish that I've ever seen. I managed about
40 pages total - mostly culled at random to see if it really was as
terrible as it seemed - out of the first three volumes (say 800 pages)
at which point I stopped for fear of dying of apoplexy induced by the
sheer uselessness and banality of the tripe I was reading. I'd rather
read a year's worth of the Volkische Beobachter, the collected speaches
of Adolf Hitler or every stupid or tasteless posting ever made to
alt.revisionism than another page of that. I can't even begin to imagine
a suitable fate for the author of this stuff, and I've got a pretty
vivid imagination. Stuff like that might attract the sad gits that play
Vampire, but we're probably better off without them until they get over
their angst-ridden slacker adolescence.
** RANT MODE OFF **

My eight farthings worth.

Angus

"Proud words of the arrogant man, in the end,
Meet punishment, great as his pride was great,
Till at last he is schooled in wisdom".
Sophocles, Antigone.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 12:57:25 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Grand strategy for fleets
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.960224124540.113913A-100000@homer28.u.washington.
edu>


On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> >>Believe me, once you've had your forces chewed up a fifth at a time trying
> >>to defend your whole system, you'll concentrate your defensive forces on
> >>defending the mainworld.
> >
> >There's a lot to be said for never letting the attacker relax.  I agree,
> >the bulk of forces will be deployed to defend the mainworld; but a few
> >SDBs and the odd escort tucked away in a GG can have a seriously
> >unnerving effect. For one thing, it forces the attacker to squander time
> >and resources "cleaning" the GGs if he wants them as refueling points.
>
> Either you use only a few, which means the opponent can toast them with only
> a few of his own ships, or you leave a sizable number, in which case the
> opponent will destroy a sizable amount of your assets. It may be cost-
> effective in so far as you'll destroy more ships than you lose, but the
> ships left in the Gas Giant must be manned by suicide crews.
>
> Also, the attacker can concentrate on cleaning out one bit of the Gas Giant
> (those are big suckers, after all) which means that only a tiny fraction
> of the ships hiding in the Gas Giant will ever get a chance at an enemy
> ship (hmmm... OK, perhaps the crews dosen't have to be suicidal. A 1 in
> (how many? 10? 20?) chance of being in the area the attacker actually uses
> aren't bad odds for survival.)

I see no reason why a shrewd commander could use a could of squadrons of
SDBs (maybe 12), and maybe one or two large missle frigates to do a fair
amount of damage to an intruder.  Gas Giants are huge places from a human
point of view.  Jupiter has, what, ten moons?  And a small ring?  There's
a lot of room there for a small resupply/refueling depot to get hidden in
there.  Put EM Masking on the ships (as well as super-EM Masking on the
base) to further hide them.  Stick them in the bottom of a crevase on one
of the GG's satellites.  Better yet, you could use two bases to reduce
the risk of compromising the whole force in the event that a base is
uncovered.  Intelligent placement of the bases on a satellite with a
favorable orbital pattern would allow a large passive EM array to keep
tabs on the intruder's refueling efforts and fleet disposition.  Or if
one really wants to spend the money, one could just plop a couple Big
Guns in the GG's ring.

I'm not saying that this wouldn't be a dangerous job, but if you stick
the best in the business in you small GG defense fleet and train to hell
and back in guerrila tactics, the intruders losses are gonna be
appreciable.  And if you wanted to cut the losses of the GG force, just
switch them to recon duty.  When the intruder force shows up at the main
planet, the native force will have a lot of accumulated data on the
opposing forces strengths/etc.

Just my $.02

-----

 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 14:49:24 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Grand strategy for fleets
Message-ID: <9602242149.AA05048@Rt66.com>


> I see no reason why a shrewd commander could use a could of squadrons of
> SDBs (maybe 12), and maybe one or two large missle frigates to do a fair
> amount of damage to an intruder.  Gas Giants are huge places from a human

I guess the trick is that this requires SDBs that can actually hurt
CruRons and BatRons.  Traveller, regardless of the flavor makes this
kind of hard.  Since a lot has been made of GG refueling in traveller
(in the canon) I'd like to see some rationale for the vulnerability of
ships while refueling in the combat rules (for TCS this would seem
useful)).

We used to assume that _any_ maneuver hit on a ship that was skimming
was a kill.  Same for PP, Mdrive and Spine criticals.  Something like
this would help make sense of this (IMO).

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 14:05:42 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Grand strategy for fleets
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.960224140058.74181B-100000@homer25.u.washington.edu>


On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

>
> > I see no reason why a shrewd commander could use a could of squadrons of
> > SDBs (maybe 12), and maybe one or two large missle frigates to do a fair
> > amount of damage to an intruder.  Gas Giants are huge places from a human
>
> I guess the trick is that this requires SDBs that can actually hurt
> CruRons and BatRons.  Traveller, regardless of the flavor makes this
> kind of hard.  Since a lot has been made of GG refueling in traveller
> (in the canon) I'd like to see some rationale for the vulnerability of
> ships while refueling in the combat rules (for TCS this would seem
> useful)).

I wouldn't say that the SDBs would have to "hurt" the ships in the
massive destruction sense.  Rather, one would assume that the GG
intruder-harrying force is primarily a recon/guerilla force.  So the SDBs
don't destroy any ships.  They can still destroy sensor arrays, put holes
in <fill-in-your-favorite-thruster> chambers, they could jam
communications, you name it, to disrupt the C3D concept that the RSB
seems to love.  At any rate, a tight be laser/maser/meson radio
transmittion of reconissance data from the GG will reach the mainworld
faster than the intruder fleet any way you cut it, giving the native
fleet more time to prepare, which would ultimately give the native fleet
an appreciable advantage.

> We used to assume that _any_ maneuver hit on a ship that was skimming
> was a kill.  Same for PP, Mdrive and Spine criticals.  Something like
> this would help make sense of this (IMO).
>
> -Merrick
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 23:37:00 +0100
From: angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re Language in the C57th
Message-ID: <8BB6589.140001A640.uuout@almac.co.uk>


Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc writes
In article <9602231744.AA10160@khan.avalon.COM>
Subject: Language in the 57th Century

<snip>

>OK, now bounce ahead to 1920.  Suddenly, radio, records and movies are
>a very  big thing.  Suddenly, all of these formerly isolated regional
>groups are being  presented with a common way of pronouncing things.
>The regional dialects  remain, but now more than ever they are reduced
>to regional accents.  As these  three media expand, and gow to include
>TV, the effect becomes even more  pronounced.  In the UK, suddenly
>everyone is learning to speak BBC English.  In
>the US, kids are drawing a significant level of language skills from TV
>shows  like Sesame Street or even the evening news.

True enough in many cases - although the fact that the TV news here is
in fairly RP accents hasn't made this correspondant change his accent a
whit nor will it; he still uses glottal stops (*) in the middle of words
and all manner of other non-RP things. But, in an interstellar milieu
these are the very forces which will force local dialects further apart
to become distinct languages. Give any world a few centuries of
isolation during the Long Night and, ultra-conservative society or not,
language drift will produce a new language.

(*) The glottal stop is an essential feature of Scots English and you
can try it at home in safety. Just pronounce butter, letter or any other
word with a t-sound in the middle without the t-sound keeping the second
vowel sound as a distinct schwa :- bu'er, wa'er, be'er, le'er, me'al,
se'er and so on.

English, due to it's volatility in the period of Chaucer and thereabouts
is perhaps a bad case to take. Let's try French. I have dug out a copy
of a mediaeval French poem, Le Couronnement de Louis, which the cover
tells me is a "chanson de geste du XIIe siecle". The text dating to
circa 1130 is moderately comprehensible even to someone with my rather
dismal level of French. However, there is limited likelihood that a
modern French speaker would understand the original spoken form of the
poem. Written and spoken forms of a language change at different rates.
Five hundred years of change might leave the written forms of two
languages quite close, but ought to be enough for the spoken forms to be
but vaguely comprehensible.

Even the Shakespeare example isn't that good. As I understand it, the
rhyming and metre employed in of Shakespeare's verse suggests different
pronunciations for many words. In fact, I seem to recall that the same
applies to Pope as well (e.g. tea as tay and not tee).

The bottom line on language change is something like this :- if there is
a huge level of cultural interchange between worlds of the Imperium and
if the millennium of the Long Night resulted in no large-scale changes
in spoken forms of languages, then and only then is there no language
variation in the Imperium. If only one or neither of these is true there
will be large degree of language variation.

Digressing ...

If English were to be the language of the future, it wouldn't be the US
variant. English would only succeed as a true lingua franca if it
retained and increased it's popularity in the Third World. That means
continuing as an non-racial common language in India, gaining popularity
in China and continuing to dominate non-Francophone Africa. But any idea
that everyone, everywhere is going to speak English is simply
wrongheaded. The Spanish-speaking and Francophone worlds have no
apparent desire to change, and why should they ? (And even the US
appears to be as likely to be a Spanish-speaking nation as an Anglophone
one, given time).

Of course, not every language changes over time or distance. Latin today
is identical to the Latin written by Cato and Virgil and identical to
the Latin written in C16th Poland - where it was the written and spoken
language of government and of culture. The Latin lyric of the Gorecki
Miserere playing in the background as I write this would be perfectly
understandable to Cato or Copernicus. Because Latin is a "dead" language
not learned in infancy it is stable. Were Imperial Galanglic uniformly a
second language learned after infancy, it too could be stable and
uniform over time and distance.

The argument isn't really about language alone as Ian Rowan notes in
Digest 609. It's about language and culture and the improbability of
homogenity across one world, let alone across hundreds or thousands.
Anyone who imagines that this world is in any way culturally homogenous
can never have travelled very far from home nor read much nor watched
anything other than soaps and Hollywood movies on TV.

Angus

"Niels Ebbeson, ye're a skeely man,
And a man o' subtlety;
And if ye canna loup a dyke,
Ye'll gae round some ither wey".
Anon., The Ballad of Niels Ebbeson.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:13:20 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: sudet@well.com
Subject: Re: Law and Justice in the Imperium
Message-ID: <199602250013.AA26606@mail.crl.com>


>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
>Subject: Law and Justice in the Imperium
>
>Sorry to weigh in so late with my thoughts on law in the Imperium, but my
>legal practice has been cutting into my Traveller time.
>
>To my friends at HIWG:  this thread has been developing on the Traveller
>mailing list, and I believe that it is of some interest to us as well, so
>I am cross-posting here.

I would appreciate if someone would forward this reply to any HIWG mailing
lists, as I am not on them...

>I disagree with Mr. Herbert's position, see George William Herbert, Law in
>the Imperium, 50 Challenge 22 (May/June 1991), for two reasons:  It has
>the Imperium caring far too much about individuals and it has the Imperium
>inserting itself too deeply into local affairs.  For example, the article
>states: "The MOJ usually places a minimum of one field agent per planet,
>with one additional agent per 100,000 population."  Id. at 23, col. 3:
>That's just unworkable.

On the contrary; it is eminently workable.  Compared to the IN, ISS,
or any of the other agencies, this is probably a completely trivial
segment of the imperial workforce, and is about the minimum needed
to deal with the normal workload of imperial interest crime and
with local emergencies  (i.e., shiploads of crazy PCs).  Given the
importance of prompt enforcement of the Imperial and High Justice
laws should they be violated, the MoJ cannot afford to leave
any system unmonitored.

>The political economy of the Imperium determines its legal systems or
>systems.  That economy has the Imperium guaranteeing local autonomy,
>security from extra-Imperial threats, and some security from
>intra-Imperial but extra-star system threats (see Imperial Rules of War).
>("Local" or "world" here refers to a member state of the Imperium, whether
>a nation on a balkanized world, a single planet, a star system, or the
>Vegan Autonomous District.) In addition, the Imperium guarantees that
>business, especially megacorporations, will be able to conduct
>interstellar trade free from piracy both free-lance and governmental.
>Hence the Imperial Navy and the Ministry of Standards, which sets (in
>association with trade organizations), inter alia, starship container
>sizes, starport berthing and other facilities, starship safety and
>engineering standards, communications protocols, etc., all of which are
>supposed to facilitate commerce.
>
>The Imperium thus not only has no reason not to care about individuals and
>individual rights, but actually has strong motivation not to -- if it
>interferes in local affairs (like the U.S. federal government does when it
>brings or authorizes civil rights prosecutions or lawsuits, which
>Herbert's article suggests that the Imperium does), it violates its
>guarantee of local autonomy.

This is not an unreasonable statement, and I can go along with it to
a large degree.  But I think you misinterpreted my article.

There was a subtle undercurrent in the article which appears to
have been too subtle.  The civil rights situation in the Imperium
is not nearly as strong as the US today (that much is evident from
reading the first section of the article).  It is in fact weaker than
that section of the article would be read on first inspection.
Note that local governments can supress some rights, and often do.
Also, note the lack of criminal laws covering civil rights violations.
While frowned upon, such violations by authorities are not really
handled within the legal system.  As severe violations break down the
trust bewteen the population and the Imperial nobility and government
and agencies, most agencies have internal rules against abuse without
very good reason, and the Nobility will act (even against its own members)
if they percieve that rights violations are destabilizing the local
situation.  But there is nothing similar to the civil rights laws
we have in the US today.

>In some situations, the Imperium will interfere with local autonomy, but
>only when a threat to Imperial or regional security is manifest.  For this
>reason, the Imperium basically ignores whatever transpires in member
>states:  rape, murder, denial of vote, mandatory voting, denial of habeas
>corpus, failure to wear clothes in public, wearing clothes in public,
>destruction of property, theft, abuse of authority, breach of fiduciary
>duty, adultery, whatever -- the Imperium leaves it to local star systems
>to deal with.  If the sophonts living there don't like it, they have
>essentially political, options:  using the local political process for
>change; overthrowing the local order by force and violence; emigrating;
>and hiring outsiders to help with one of the above.  The last category
>might interest the Imperium from time to time, because it affects the
>Imperium's guarantee of some security from extra-local threats.  The
>Imperium tends to discourage the development of strong regional (i.e.,
>multi-system) movements that might threaten it, but that isn't a matter of
>law as much as politics.

This is basically correct.  Please re-read the article; these are, with
a couple of exceptions, either local or recognized law areas.  The Imperial
MoJ does not get involved in local law (except as its field agents find it
convenient), nor in recognized law to any large degree.  Their only activities
in recognized law cases are, in coordination with local authorities in the
current planet of residence, aprehending those who have arrest warrants
pending for recognized crimes.  They do not prosecute them and are not
generally involved in investegating them, they merely assist in the
aprehention and extradition process, if that.

The exceptions are the Imperial Crimes of murder and kidnapping;
these are specifically stated to be enforced only on starships and
extraterritorial installations.  Activities like that on starships
and starports and the like *are* threats to the interstellar trading
system...

>Now Imperial law itself -- the law in effect at Imperial installations and
>in space between star systems -- is a different matter.  It is designed to
>facilitate interstellar commerce.  It is largely regulatory, as indicated
>in the brief discussion of the Ministry of Standards.
>
>Imperial law does include a number of criminal laws, which are not too
>different from the prohibitions on acts mala in se that the Terran
>conquerors brought with them into the Ziru Sirka thousands of years ago.
>So for example violence except in defense of self or others or when
>authorized by the government is a crime, and "violence" is construed
>broadly enough to include, e.g., detention of a sophont.  Theft,
>embezzlement, fraud, and the like are bad for business and are also
>Imperial crimes.

Theft, embezzlement, and fraud are bad for business but easily handled
by local laws and/or the smuggling and great theft recognized laws.
Smaller incidents are not of imperial purview.  If everything that
was bad for business was illegal at the Imperial level there would
be no end to the legal system being pulled into the trade wars which
break out from time to time.  A more lassiez-faire attitude exists,
so that only significant breaches of the trade peace are acted on
by Imperial authorities (instead of locals).

>The Imperial Criminal Code also prohibits crimes against
>the Imperium -- such as treason, insurrection, and espionage.  The
>Imperium may prosecute for crimes against the Imperium without regard to
>where the crimes took place.  Thus members of a conspiracy to overthrow
>the archduke that involved recruiting mercenaries in the Aslan Hierate and
>making cash payments in a bar on an Imperial member state could all be
>prosecuted for treason as long as they could be brought into an Imperial
>Judicial Court.

Yep.  High Justice Crimes are exactly that...

>Imperial law also includes numerous civil law provisions, which are more
>important to the day to day life of NPCs (if not PCs) than any criminal
>laws.  For example, the Imperial Commercial Code sets out the rules for
>the purchase, sale, hypothecation, and insurance of goods in interstellar
>trade.  The Imperial Admiralty Code contains the rules for registration,
>ownership, and operation of starships.  The Imperial Rules of Judicial
>Procedure set out the rules lawyers must follow when pursuing cases in
>Imperial Judicial Courts.  The Imperial Naval and Military Code governs
>the conduct of Imperial naval and army personnel and marines.  An
>interesting effect of the presence of the various Imperial codes and rules
>is their adoption by many member states as local law.  In this way, the
>Imperium is subtly -- and probably unintentionally -- undermining the
>diversity and local autonomy of its members.

Most of these are not issues of interest to Traveller campaigns,
IMHO.  Flavor for the background, perhaps, but not likely to come
into play.

>The Imperium does not maintain a police force per se.  Enforcement of
>Imperial law is left to the executives in charge of those places where
>Imperial law applies:  Captains of starships, directors of research
>stations, and Sky Port Authority Executive Directors call on their
>security departments for law enforcement.  Crimes not implicating a noble
>or Imperial security are dealt with on site, with the executive sitting as
>chief judge of a panel and counsel representing both sides presenting the
>case.  Appeal is to the local Imperial Judicial Court.

I *strongly* disagree with this sort of take on who is the responsible
police force.  There are a number of Imperial Crimes which are very
important to the ongoing function of the Imperium; leaving this up
to the varied competence and strength of local installations is most
unlike the Imperial way of doing things.  Whenever there is something
of significant interest to the Imperium, and the stability of trade
and avoidance of things like great assault definitely count,
the Imperium makes a central ministry or service to handle it
in a standard and accountable (to the Emperor) manner.  Hence the
formation of the Ministry of Justice.  It is far too much to ask
that every starport administrator, every ship commander be good
enough to deal with the vagarities of serious crimes, investegating
them, aprehending serious criminals, etc.  That calls for a professional
law enforcement organization, not difuse authority.

>The Ministry of Justice Special Branch is the Imperial secret police, and
>is charged with enforcing the laws against crimes against the Imperium.
>This is largely a matter of counter intelligence work.  The MoJ also
>provides prosecutors for crimes against the Imperium, and advises the
>Emperor and Moot on issues relating to crime and social order, based on
>its ongoing research and monitoring.

Eh.  The MoJ has authority over all of these, but things like counterintel
work and the like are handled in cooperation with Naval Intelligence and
the other varied intel agencies.  The Imperium does not have a single
unified "secret police" organization; the MoJ handles what it can on
the mostly-criminal-and-threat-to-trade side, the Navy handles military
threats to the peace (NI) and probably is tasked with diplomatic work,
the Scout Service intel branch keeps an eye on things which might get
missed by the more formal investegations, etc.

>The Imperial Judicial Courts (not to be confused with the Imperial Court
>at Capital) are a system of courts that hear civil cases arising under
>Imperial law, cases involving crimes against the Imperium, and appeals of
>criminal cases arising under Imperial law at Imperial installations.
>
>Each subsector has an Imperial Judicial Court, which may have several
>judges.  The judges are recommended by the dukes and archdukes to the
>Emperor (actually to a selection committee that recommends them to the
>Emperor, but the committee is the Emperor's agent), who appoints them with
>the advice, but without regard to the consent, of the Moot.  Judges are
>Imperial nobles, either granted rank for their tenure or already holding
>rank.  They serve at the pleasure of the Emperor.  The Ministry of
>Justice's Courts Branch officially handles judicial administration, but
>actually the Imperial Judicial Courts depend on their host dukes for
>almost everything.  For this reason, they do not hear cases involving the
>duke of the subsector in which they sit, nor of his or her relatives.
>Appeal is to a panel of senior Imperial Judges from within the subsector,
>then to the Archduke, then to the Imperial Court.  (The Emperor may
>theoretically hear cases as the highest judge in the realm, but has never
>done so.  Rather, the Emperor assigns a panel of senior judges to sit at
>judicial appeals at the Imperial Court.)
>
>Bear in mind that this structure is grafted onto a Vilani sensibility that
>values cooperation and mediation.  Most commercial disputes -- even
>between megacorporations with their mega law firms -- are mediated.  Most
>crimes are mediated, leading to a contract between victim and perpetrator
>for restitution and apology.  I've devoted a lot of space to the
>structured parts of the system, but they lend themselves to it.
>
>One final point is the "system" of manorial courts.  Each enfoeffed noble
>has virtually complete power within his or her fief, including maintaining
>whatever legal and judicial structure is desired.
>
>Thank you for your attention. Your comments are as always appreciated.
>
>--Glenn
>
>Glenn M. Goffin
>Attorney-at-Lawtelephone  (510) 527-9797
>1970 Broadway, 12th Floortelecopier (510) 763-7222
>Oakland, California  94612email      sudet@well.com

Glenn, I live in Berkeley and work in the south bay, if you'd like to
talk in person about this at some time.  8-)

-george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 610
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 611

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Dole and Food allocations by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  2) Re: Re Language in the C57th by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
  3) Re: Simon's Glorious Program by jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
  4) Re: Simon's Glorious Vaporware by jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
  5) Culture of the future by Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
  6) Simon's Glorious Program by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  7) Re Language in the C57th by Antti Lahtinen <al76188@cs.tut.fi>
  8) Defending Gas Giants by Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
  9) Re: Defending Gas Giants by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
 10) Re: Defending Gas Giants by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 11) Law and Justice in the Imperium by "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
 12) Re: Subsector Display program by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
 13) Traveller dates by David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 15:34:59 -0900
From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Dole and Food allocations
Message-ID: <v01530501ad5559f7af62@[137.229.100.52]>

>Let me say that I doubt *anyone* on the dole in America can buy lobster,
>etc. on the basic amounts received from welfare. In any case, what concern
>is it of ours? If welfare truly is insurance, do we carp when someone spends
>their husband's life insurance on something besides the funeral? Also,
>trading food stamps for cash is *illegal*. Not to say that it doesn't
>happen, but it certainly isn't part of the government's policy on welfare.

As for food stamps: in Anchorage AK, USA, 1 adult male (myself) got $185.00
per month for food; I couldn't eat $185 in food per month without buying
steaks or "specialty food items"; I did not recieve cash back in excess of
$1.00 per transaction; I did not have the ability to buy from the Deli at
the supermarket. I am no longer on the dole, and now can barely afford to
feed myself AND my wife, as we only have $70-90 after bills.

Such a stiuation may arise on various imperial worlds; I have always left
that up to the individual worlds, with an imperial level insurance program
available; for a nominal fee, usually with matching funds from the local
world (or the service branch); the monies placed in collect 1% interest,
and pay a stipend of cr500 per month until the funds run out. It's
optional. It's easy. The character has the option. It's THEIR MONEY, so
there is no restriction on drawing it other than they have their reciepts,
and can prove that they are not working for the month previous. No
Handouts, just investments in the future. Some use it as a retirement plan,
so be it. So long as they aren't working, fine!

-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:          ANWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
HomePage:       http://orion.alaska.edu/~aswfh/index.html



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:39:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Re Language in the C57th
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.960224162421.118274A-100000@homer01.u.washington.
edu>


On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, ANGUS MCLELLAN wrote:

> The bottom line on language change is something like this :- if there is
> a huge level of cultural interchange between worlds of the Imperium and
> if the millennium of the Long Night resulted in no large-scale changes
> in spoken forms of languages, then and only then is there no language
> variation in the Imperium. If only one or neither of these is true there
> will be large degree of language variation.

Case in point: Look at some of the words we use now in our "global
village".  "Karaoke" for instance popped straight into the English
language with very little change (I'm not a linguist--but that's what
I've read and noticed).

> Of course, not every language changes over time or distance. Latin today
> is identical to the Latin written by Cato and Virgil and identical to
> the Latin written in C16th Poland - where it was the written and spoken
> language of government and of culture. The Latin lyric of the Gorecki
> Miserere playing in the background as I write this would be perfectly
> understandable to Cato or Copernicus. Because Latin is a "dead" language
> not learned in infancy it is stable. Were Imperial Galanglic uniformly a
> second language learned after infancy, it too could be stable and
> uniform over time and distance.

Well, with all languages there a various dialects.  Classical Latin
pronounces the "v" as a "w" and doesn't have a "j", whereas Medievel
Latin (dominated by the Christian Churches) pronounced the "v" in the
modern sense.  From what I've read, Classical Latin is more complicated
than Medievel and Enlightenment Latin, most likely because, even though
they are both "formal" Latin, the Classical writers spoke and had an
understanding of "colloquial/dialectic" Latin, of which we know little.

> The argument isn't really about language alone as Ian Rowan notes in
> Digest 609. It's about language and culture and the improbability of
> homogenity across one world, let alone across hundreds or thousands.
> Anyone who imagines that this world is in any way culturally homogenous
> can never have travelled very far from home nor read much nor watched
> anything other than soaps and Hollywood movies on TV.

I agree, however, with the increased global flow of information one can
see a definite path towards homogenity, as a side effect of the global
economy.  Multinational corporations seek to break down the cultural
barriers, or at least manipulate them for an increased market share.  And
that's just one influence on cultural exchange.  Step back and look at
the major cultures of the world--one can see a definite cultural
whiplash, as dominant cultures trying to assimilate subordinate cultures
are affected by the cultures they try to squish.  I can dig up more
evidence of this process if anyone is interested in an intellectual
discussion on this subject.

But in regards to the Traveller setting, this might tend to break down as
information is slowed by the limitations of FTL travel and a lack of FTL
communications in "canon" Traveller.  My knowledge is only of TNE,
however, I would expect this cultural whiplash phenomenon to be present
to a diminished extent in any government of the scale/intensity of the
Imperium/Regency.

> Angus
>
> "Niels Ebbeson, ye're a skeely man,
> And a man o' subtlety;
> And if ye canna loup a dyke,
> Ye'll gae round some ither wey".
> Anon., The Ballad of Niels Ebbeson.
>

-----

 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 22:14:49 -0500
From: jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
To: traveller@mpgn.com.simonm@ramhb.co.nz
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Simon's Glorious Program
Message-ID: <199602250314.WAA01629@pipe11.nyc.pipeline.com>

You said:
> Please expand this. I need to know what _use_ this information will be
put to
> before I consider the enormous amount of extra work this would entail.
I'm a CT
> ref myself, and haven't even seen the rules that generate all this hard
science
> stuff, so I don't have a full understanding of how it would fit into
running a
> game. And that's my main focus. If it makes the game more interesting for

> players to adventure in then I'll look at it for release 2.0. If it's
only of
> interest to a few hard science boffins then they can stick to "Newton" (
if you
> can see my point ).

Well, I'm a hard science boffin when it comes to planetary systems, but I
see your point. However, I'm also a gamemaster, so I'll explain how I
actually use it. First, though, I'll point out all this "hard science
stuff"
is mostly from (black) Book 6: Scouts (copyright 1983), with elaborations
by DGP in Grand Survey, both CT products.

The use is for fleshing out both the mainworld and the rest of the system.
The extended system data is one of the tools I use to give my players
a sense of travelling to a _place_ rather than to the "faceless NPC planet"

that can result from going by the UWP alone.

I also think that software that makes it _easier_ to incorporate (and,
above
all, USE) more system data is what will take it out of the hands of the
boffins, who at present are the ones willing to slog through everything
with paper, pencil, and calculator. I'd _love_ to have it more user-
friendly.

And some things I wasn't boffin enough to do, like keep track of
the relative positions and distances to other planets (important for
GG refueling and visiting off-the-mainworld colonies), or keep track
of planetary seasons (so I know when it's the middle of winter at the
starport the PCs are going to). These things let me add detail and
color without always having to do so arbitrarily.

Actually, a "detailed planet and star system" is probably another
program in its own right. However, I would like a sector-level
program like the one you are working on to be able to have
a detailed system program as an add-on, and to work with the
data therein (like calling up all the UWPs for all the inhabited
worlds in a system, not just the mainworld).


> >2.  Show the most advantageous trade routes [and elaborations]
>
> This is very likely.

Good. This is one of the things that mapping software is _for_.


Now for my own request, which has to do with how the data is
displayed. I'm tired of maps that go where the grid is instead of
where the planets are. I'm tired of "the universe stopping at the
edge of the map." I want software that will USE the capabilities
of a computer to overcome this better than I can with a pencil
and custom-made hexmap. Therefore, I want:

1) a floating map. I want to click on Extolay/Lanth, hit 'Center'
          or something, and SEE that it connects branches of the
          Spinward Main into Vilis and Regina subsectors, and that
          two parsecs away in Jewell subsector is a planet people
          and goods might want to go to. I _don't_ want a map of
          just Lanth subsector.

2) the capability to vary the size of the map. Sometimes a slightly
          larger map suits my needs, and I'd like to make it 10x12, or
          16x20 instead of 8x10 parsecs. Same on the small side.

3) to answer the question: "What if I do (1) and/or (2) and the map
          extends into another sector?" Or up to three other sectors
          if you're at one of the corners. I want to be able to map
          data from more than one sector at once, since planets at the
          edge of the map shouldn't arbitrarily be cut off from worlds
          only one parsec away just because they're on the wrong side
          of the sector border.

Would it be that hard to assign sectors some sort of "supercoordinate"
to tell the program where the sectors relate to each other, so then it
can do the mapping job? And a grey blotch labelled "Data Not
Available" showing up on the map if, perchance, the data is NOT
available.

--
John H Bogan           jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 01:05:30 -0500
From: jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Simon's Glorious Vaporware
Message-ID: <199602250605.BAA21057@pipe9.nyc.pipeline.com>

On Feb 24, 1996 19:20:37, 'Armand Suarez' wrote:

>Does anybody know if the Traveller sector data/rule hypertext program that

>GDW was advertising for TNE recently ever became a reality?

Yes

>Is it any good?

No. Or more accurately, not enough to be worth the money.
The maps did't display enough information "at a glance", so
yuo had to do too much "click to check on this, click to check
on that."  And if you're using a %#%$#%$ computer, why can't
you have a ^&$*(&))*% floating map.

>Is it still being sold?  Where can I get it?
>
>- Armand

try planetiii@aol.com

--
John H Bogan           jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 13:32:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Culture of the future
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.91.960224131252.1221A-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>


Iain et al have raised some fascinating points recently regarding the
Imperium as warm and fuzzy, totalitarian and cruel, or (perhaps most
interesting) simply a projection of current Western/American sociology
and morality -- "America writ (very) large."

I will be the first to admit that the degree to which the Imperium and
its satellite cultures resemble 20th century industrialized western Terra
is ludicrous, just as the degree of technological change is ridiculously
small for the period involved.  Were I writing a science fiction novel
set in a future history paralleling the Traveller mythos, the technology
would be (a la Clarke) indistinguishable from magic, and the sociology
and morality exotic to the point of incomprehensibility.  And therein
lies the problem.

Look at the published body of far-future SF.  It falls pretty neatly into
two categories.  In the first, the sociology is modeled very closely on
present or past Terran examples, and the technology is kept relatively in
the background -- Asimov's Foundation Trilogy is the classic example, or
see also Herbert's Dune.  Even Niven's "Known Space" sequence has this
character -- the tech is mostly "gosh, wow, lookit this cool gizmo!",
rather than integrated into the lives and viewpoints of the characters,
and the cultures are solidly 20th-century Terran.

In the second category, society is utterly changed, and frequently
technology is at the Clarke "magic" point.  And in virtually every such
case, the author finds some excuse to insert a 20th-century western
observer into the narrative, so there's somebody ignorant around, giving
an excuse to explain everything as it happens.  Greg Bear's "Eon"
sequence and Huxley's "Brave New World" are two examples that spring to
mind.

My point is that an RPG virtually has to fall into the first category.
You can't roll up some characters and then start the first scenario by
saying "The strisna from metalevel gamma suddenly impinges on your outer
telepresent arcana.  What do you do?"  In order to have some reasonable
sense of what's possible, what things mean, and how to behave, characters
must be immersed in a culture and technology reasonably similar to what
their players inhabit.  And as a result, a playable SF RPG background is
going to look like Rome, or America, or some other well-known model, and
the tech is going to look suspiciously like 20th-century tech with a few
well-defined extensions.  Nobody will argue that this is at all likely to
be what the future looks like.  But what the future *will* actually look
like is almost certainly too incomprehensible to make useful game
background.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Berry                      CompuServe cancellation ID: 11089132
cberry@cinenet.net               Don't support Net censorship!
---------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 22:33:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Simon's Glorious Program
Message-ID: <FeDuJD1w165w@krypton.rain.com>

simonm@ramhb.co.nz writes:

>>From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
>>1.  Stelllar/system data for a system is used in a newtonian-type
>>simulation of orbits.  It shows the system graphically and can be
>>used to provide travel times between planets and to the safe zone for
>>jump (users would input the maneuver drive and fuel of their ship).
>>The simulation need not be graphics-intensive.  A simple mathematical
>>model with colored dots and so on would do.  The starting positions
>>of the planets could be random or stored by the program for the next
>>time the system is visited.  See the shareware program "Newton" for
>>Windows for an example (programmer:  Paul Keet, 12726 Southridge Dr.,
>>Surrey, B.C., Canada, V3X 3C6).  Planets other than the main world
>>are not in the system profile, but nothing stops you from randomly
>>generating it, and allowing users to input what they know from canon
>>(i.e. Regina, Terra) and what they use in their campaign.  In my
>>opinion, this is a great way to make use of the possibilites in
>>Traveller system generation.  It saves lots of time in many ways.

>Please expand this. I need to know what _use_ this information will be
>put to before I consider the enormous amount of extra work this would
>entail. I'm a CT ref myself, and haven't even seen the rules that
>generate all this hard science stuff, so I don't have a full
>understanding of how it would fit into running a game. And that's my
>main focus. If it makes the game more interesting for players to
>adventure in then I'll look at it for release 2.0.

What he's asking for is a "realtime" *map* of the system. And you'd
better believe it's necessary. How else are the players going to be
able to figure out *how* to get from one planet to another inside the
same system. Even in CT, most of this info exists (Book 6 Scouts).

Look at the situation with Earth and Mars. At closest approach, they
are only .6 AU apart. At farthest, they are not only 2,6 AU apart, but
the sun is *directly* between them.

Planetary orbits do get ugly to calculate, but if you restrict things
to circular orbits, then the calcs you'd need for the map (and
associated "course plotting" aids) are pretty simple.

And in some systems, this sort of thing will even affect merely going
out to the 100 diameter limit to jump, simply because the planet is so
close to the star that you have to go to the *star's* 100 dia. limit.

>If it's only of interest to a few hard science boffins then they can
>stick to "Newton" ( if you can see my point ).

Except that I'd bet that entering the Traveller data into "Newton"
would be a *royal* pain, and you might not even be able to save the
"results" in a way that is useful for *gaming*.

And Newton isn't likely set up for astrogation, and almost *certainly*
has no idea about things like the 100 diameter limit.

>>4.  As noted above, random world/system/sector generation.  Add the
>>ability to preset some of the parameters so you don't have to press
>>the randomize button a billion times to get what you want.

>No. I won't be doing any sort of generation if I can avoid it. There
>are dozens of generation programs out there, and more being mooted
>every day. My intention is to allow users to import and display the
>output of those programs.

The problem here is that there's no standard format for *storing* some
of the data from a system generator in machine readable format. So
unless you want the users to type in all of it by hand, you'll either
have to make a deal with someone writing a system generator or at least
restrict your program to working with the output of just a few of them.

>For maximum portability purposes this program will be written for
>Windows 3.1 so it will run on Win 95 ( I'm using Win 95 myself ).

Unfortunately, I can't *run* Windows 3.1. I can just barely run 3.0,
and it generally isn't worth it on this system.

You might consider making the Mark 1, Mod 1 version a "text" only
version under DOS.

If I could find an HTML editor that ran under DOS, I'd be writing up a
hypertext document for most Traveller stuff. One starting point would
be a graphic of the entire galaxy. Click on that, and the picture fills
the screen, with markings indicating "known" space. Click on that and
you get the map of known space (plus some extras). Then you can click
on whatever it is thaty they call those 4-sector groups. Then on
sectors, subsectors, hexes, etc. All the time with a sidebar giving
info on whatever is showing... Ideally, it'd go all the way down to
street maps for the places you have them.

Another entry point is the library computer. Just take all the library
entries, TNS items, etc, etc and link them up.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:50:37 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <al76188@cs.tut.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re Language in the C57th
Message-ID: <199602251450.QAA08389@cs.tut.fi>

> Give any world a few centuries of isolation during the Long Night
> and, ultra-conservative society or not, language drift will produce
> a new language.

        This subject has been nicely dealt with by Terry McInnes, who
        wrote the "Languages in Traveller" article, which was published
        in a "Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society" magazine back in
        1982. The same article also appeared in  "The Best of the
        Journal, volume IV".

        Antti Lahtinen    :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        al76188@cs.tut.fi :


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 19:58:33 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Defending Gas Giants
Message-ID: <199602251858.TAA13933@embla.diku.dk>

Charles Pratt" writes:
> On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>>>There's a lot to be said for never letting the attacker relax.  I agree,
>>>the bulk of forces will be deployed to defend the mainworld; but a few
>>>SDBs and the odd escort tucked away in a GG can have a seriously
>>>unnerving effect. For one thing, it forces the attacker to squander time
>>>and resources "cleaning" the GGs if he wants them as refueling points.
>>
>>Either you use only a few, which means the opponent can toast them with only
>>a few of his own ships, or you leave a sizable number, in which case the
>>opponent will destroy a sizable amount of your assets. It may be cost-
>>effective in so far as you'll destroy more ships than you lose, but the
>>ships left in the Gas Giant must be manned by suicide crews.
>>
>>Also, the attacker can concentrate on cleaning out one bit of the Gas Giant
>>(those are big suckers, after all) which means that only a tiny fraction
>>of the ships hiding in the Gas Giant will ever get a chance at an enemy
>>ship (hmmm... OK, perhaps the crews dosen't have to be suicidal. A 1 in
>>(how many? 10? 20?) chance of being in the area the attacker actually uses
>>aren't bad odds for survival.)
>
>I see no reason why a shrewd commander could use a could of squadrons of
>SDBs (maybe 12), and maybe one or two large missle frigates to do a fair
>amount of damage to an intruder.  Gas Giants are huge places from a human
>point of view.  Jupiter has, what, ten moons?  And a small ring?  There's
>a lot of room there for a small resupply/refueling depot to get hidden in
>there.  Put EM Masking on the ships (as well as super-EM Masking on the
>base) to further hide them.  Stick them in the bottom of a crevase on one
>of the GG's satellites.  Better yet, you could use two bases to reduce
>the risk of compromising the whole force in the event that a base is
>uncovered.  Intelligent placement of the bases on a satellite with a
>favorable orbital pattern would allow a large passive EM array to keep
>tabs on the intruder's refueling efforts and fleet disposition.  Or if
>one really wants to spend the money, one could just plop a couple Big
>Guns in the GG's ring.

You seem to have overlooked what I say in the second paragraph above. Gas
Giants _are_ big places. Which is why the odds are that one or two such
squadrons wouldn't even get a chance to harrass the refueling attacker.
The attacker dosen't have to spread his fleet out over the whole Gas Giant,
after all. He can concentrate on one bit of it.

>I'm not saying that this wouldn't be a dangerous job, but if you stick the
>best in the business in you small GG defense fleet and train to hell and
>back in guerrila tactics, the intruders losses are gonna be appreciable.

I feel that that is debatable in real life terms and I don't see how it
follows from the Traveller Ship Combat rules.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:16:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Defending Gas Giants
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91j.960225131157.124561B-100000@homer17.u.washington.
edu>


On Sun, 25 Feb 1996, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Charles Pratt" writes:
> > On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> >
> >>>There's a lot to be said for never letting the attacker relax.  I agree,
> >>>the bulk of forces will be deployed to defend the mainworld; but a few
> >>>SDBs and the odd escort tucked away in a GG can have a seriously
> >>>unnerving effect. For one thing, it forces the attacker to squander time
> >>>and resources "cleaning" the GGs if he wants them as refueling points.
> >>
> >>Either you use only a few, which means the opponent can toast them with only
> >>a few of his own ships, or you leave a sizable number, in which case the
> >>opponent will destroy a sizable amount of your assets. It may be cost-
> >>effective in so far as you'll destroy more ships than you lose, but the
> >>ships left in the Gas Giant must be manned by suicide crews.
> >>
> >>Also, the attacker can concentrate on cleaning out one bit of the Gas Giant
> >>(those are big suckers, after all) which means that only a tiny fraction
> >>of the ships hiding in the Gas Giant will ever get a chance at an enemy
> >>ship (hmmm... OK, perhaps the crews dosen't have to be suicidal. A 1 in
> >>(how many? 10? 20?) chance of being in the area the attacker actually uses
> >>aren't bad odds for survival.)
> >
> >I see no reason why a shrewd commander could use a could of squadrons of
> >SDBs (maybe 12), and maybe one or two large missle frigates to do a fair
> >amount of damage to an intruder.  Gas Giants are huge places from a human
> >point of view.  Jupiter has, what, ten moons?  And a small ring?  There's
> >a lot of room there for a small resupply/refueling depot to get hidden in
> >there.  Put EM Masking on the ships (as well as super-EM Masking on the
> >base) to further hide them.  Stick them in the bottom of a crevase on one
> >of the GG's satellites.  Better yet, you could use two bases to reduce
> >the risk of compromising the whole force in the event that a base is
> >uncovered.  Intelligent placement of the bases on a satellite with a
> >favorable orbital pattern would allow a large passive EM array to keep
> >tabs on the intruder's refueling efforts and fleet disposition.  Or if
> >one really wants to spend the money, one could just plop a couple Big
> >Guns in the GG's ring.
>
> You seem to have overlooked what I say in the second paragraph above. Gas
> Giants _are_ big places. Which is why the odds are that one or two such
> squadrons wouldn't even get a chance to harrass the refueling attacker.
> The attacker dosen't have to spread his fleet out over the whole Gas Giant,
> after all. He can concentrate on one bit of it.

No, I agree that GG's are very big places, I'm just saying that even with
modern electronics we can track the moon landers, etc, so what do they
have in the 57th, chopped liver?  I'm just suggesting the idea that they
will be able to track large fleet more easily in the 57th, especially if
they are doing the watching from one (preferably two) opposing satellite
orbits (for maximum coverage).  And once they know where a fleet is, the
rest is purely logistics and tactics.

> >I'm not saying that this wouldn't be a dangerous job, but if you stick the
> >best in the business in you small GG defense fleet and train to hell and
> >back in guerrila tactics, the intruders losses are gonna be appreciable.
>
> I feel that that is debatable in real life terms and I don't see how it
> follows from the Traveller Ship Combat rules.

Everything's debateable---isn't that the point? ;)

>       Hans Rancke
> University of Copenhagen
>      rancke@diku.dk
> ------------
>         "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>          events based on the individual situation."
>                                 _76 Patrons_, p. 8
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 14:24:27 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Defending Gas Giants
Message-ID: <9602252124.AA17991@Rt66.com>


> No, I agree that GG's are very big places, I'm just saying that even with
> modern electronics we can track the moon landers, etc, so what do they
> have in the 57th, chopped liver?  I'm just suggesting the idea that they
> will be able to track large fleet more easily in the 57th, especially if
> they are doing the watching from one (preferably two) opposing satellite
> orbits (for maximum coverage).  And once they know where a fleet is, the
> rest is purely logistics and tactics.

My whole point is that it should be, but it isn't.  What tactics will
work for this (choose from HG, MT, or BR/BL) defense?  I'd add that
we're talking about SDBs vs. a BatRon refueling.

GG refueling is said to be a vulnerable time, but according to our
various rules sets, we can't duplicate this danger without adding house
rules.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 14:30:21 -0800 (PST)
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Law and Justice in the Imperium
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9602251411.A4086-0100000@well>

Mr. Herbert and I may not be as far apart in our conceptions as I thought.

> Glenn, I live in Berkeley and work in the south bay, if you'd like to
> talk in person about this at some time.  8-)

Yes, let's; I live in Berkeley, too.

-george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 12:20 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Subsector Display program
Message-ID: <m0tqpjZ-0002iIC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>


>As you know, planets aren't always in conjunction, so a model of their
>orbits and where they are at present is necessary (I think) to compute
>travel times.  The graphics are just to help the user visualize the system.
> With HePLaR (sic) and the slowing of intra-system travel in TNE, computing
>travel time becomes increasingly important.  The characters may have to make
>an in-system jump to get from the gas giant to the mainworld, for example,
>if the travel time by maneuver drive is greater than a week or so.  This
>whole thing about travel time could be important to gamers because it would
>tell them quickly how much game time they have to use in a system doing
>certain things, and how much fuel they need to procure or buy.  It would
>save on the bookkeeping and math that slows the game when the facts become
>necessary.

When mechanics like this slow a game down, it's time to ask why they're there at
all. I'll explain why I don't bother with this level of in-syetem detail below.
Consequently I have no immediate plans to include this level of detail in my
program _UNLESS_ I get a lot of mail from those who use it in their games.

>Also as you know, the system data, other than homeworld/star data, is not in
>the sector data you're talking about using in your program.  Incorporating a
>random/selective generator for this info will quickly make it available to
>players.  If the program saved the data, then it could be reused, and the
>players would be able to flesh out their gaming area of whatever sector in
>an easy and consistent way.  Most of this info has not been published
>officially, so you wouldn't have any canon-violations.  Those very few
>systems that have been published could be inputted directly by the user if
>needed.  The extra info your program would generate would enrich a campaign.

This is a good idea, as long as it can be set up as an elective option,
preferable as an add-on product.

> I would be happy because it would allow me to easily take advantage of the
>extra background info I could give the players, and I could use the info to
>flesh out my adventures.  Now, I don't generate systems much because it's so
>time consuming.

Me too.

>The reason I think you should incorporate this into your program is because
>it would take the data from prepublished sectors one level higher, so to
>speak.  Your program would read the available sector data and then, when
>called for, flesh out the system quickly and easily for players to use in
>their campaign.  It would make the sector data even more useful.

I see where you're coming from, and maybe this could be included as an add-on
modle later, but for now it's not where I going. See my explanation below.

>Another idea:  The trade codes for mainworlds can also be applied to the
>rest of the planets in the system.  In that way, you can compute the best
>trade routes not only among mainworlds, but also including the available
>planets in those systems.  You could even compute the best trade route
>within a system.  This would expand the options of players running
>merchantile operations.

Personally, ( while I again see where you're going with this ) I don't see any
difference between running in-system or inter-system commerce. Travaller started
with the premise of adventurers travelling between star-systems within a
subsector and doing things like trading, etc. This fosters James Kirks "Let's
see what's out there" attitude. In-system commerce, while more economically
logical, and technologically possible, fosters a stay-at-home mentality. I know
there's a problem with the way the canon Traveller maps lay out jump-routes so
that it's virtually impossible to even leave home in a jump-1 ship ( and hard to
leave the subsector in a Jump-2 ship ) but this merely stretches the imagination
of the referee. Create space-stations to act as halfway points / fuel dumps if
you have to. Give the players a bigger ship. Whatever seems sensible to make
things work out.

My first few years refereeing Traveller were spent studying rule books, and
pronouncing things impossible if the rules didn't cover them ( or the maps
didn't show them). Now, I consider such behaviour plain dumb. If something
doesn't make sense in the published material ( especially in view of your
campaign ) then find an imaginative solution. Canon doesn't have to restrict you
from doing what you need to do. It's your game. Make it work.

>The rules used to generate all the information I speak of were first made
>available in the Scouts book for CT.  Currently, you can find the info for
>TNE in the main book and in World Tamer's Handbook.  Absolutely all the
>information you need is there in the form of charts and random die roll
>tables.  This information and the sector data might change in format, for
>all I know, with the release of the new Traveller edition, whenever that
>happens.

I have the Scouts book, but I'll reiterate my position ( at present ). I'm not
planning to do any generating of data at all. Obviously different users will
want different features ( as is always the case ) and if I try to build
something that's all things to all people then it will never see the light of
day. So what I'll do is build a program that displays CT sector data in a way
which is useful to most referees ( especially new ones ) and then look at
in-system data and orbital displays. For my money, this level of detail has no
bearing whatsoever on the game in that it is effectively just adding more
destinationswithin a given area. It doesn't even eliminate jumps from the
equation, but instead makes life harder for everyone by allowing micro-jumps
which require even more computations.

This is, of course, my personal opinion, but considering the hassle involved in
implementing this level of detail for every system visited in a gaming
situation, and the enormous overhead imposed on both players and referees in
keeping track of it ( without a computer anyway ), and the lack of published
support for the concept ( apart from the rules which I'm sure fall into the
category of "seemed like a good idea at the time" ), I won't generally bother
with it in my campaigns. If a player wants to know if there's a mining operation
in a given system, then as long as it's presence wouldn't upset my existing
plans, I roll a dice for the answer. No messing around required. Sure it's not
as colorful, but there are far more important things in a game than the number
of uninhabitable planets in a system. No offense meant to anyone who enjoys
fleshing out systems. Traveller is all about building your own Sci-Fi
environment and playing there. This is just how I see it. The mere fact that we
have multiple time-lines and several different sets of rules out there now,
shows how flexible you can be with established canon and get away with it. It's
your game after all.

>>There are dozens of generation programs out there, and more being mooted
>>every day. My intention is to allow users to import and display the output
>>of those programs.

>For example, which programs and where can I get them?  I haven't seen any.
>I'd like it if they ran in Windows.

Wouldn't we all. Most are written for DOS, and several can be found on the
Traveller Archive sites here on the web. Search on "Traveller" if you haven't
already found any Traveller web sites. Otherwise, follow your nose. You're
looking for Traveller Archive FTP sites.

Simon.


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 17:36:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: Traveller dates
Message-ID: <199602251736.RAA00130@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>

Could some one tell me what the various dating methods used in TNE are.

I have seen reference to 231-1102 which I recognise as an Imperial date,
but how many days are there to a year?

Also I have seen dates such as 12/V/1102 -- How many days in a Month, and How
many months to the year.

I am sure I have seen record of this somewhere but I don't seem to be about to
find it any where

Cheers

Dave

--
/*-------------------------------------------------------------*\
| dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk : David Mark Johnson            |
| The future's so bright, I gotto wear shades                   |
\*-------------------------------------------------------------*/

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 611
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 612

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Traveller Map Display program (everybody now...) by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  2) re: Traveller Map Display program by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  3) Law & Justice in the Imperium by "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
  4) Fleet refueling by t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
  5) Taxation by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  6) Test of mail to Ambassador from Sun by "Brendan L. Walsh" <blw@MPGN.COM>
  7) Technology by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  8) GG refueling by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  9) re: RC worlds & RICE Papers by E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
 10) Map display program by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 11) HePLar Thrust and Compensated G's by fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
 12) Re: [T610] RC and RICE Papers by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
 13) Re: [T611] Traveller Dates by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 16:06 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller Map Display program (everybody now...)
Message-ID: <m0tqtGT-0002iIC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan) wrote :

>3) to answer the question: "What if I do (1) and/or (2) and the map
>          extends into another sector?" Or up to three other sectors
>          if you're at one of the corners. I want to be able to map
>          data from more than one sector at once, since planets at the
>          edge of the map shouldn't arbitrarily be cut off from worlds
>          only one parsec away just because they're on the wrong side
>          of the sector border.
>Would it be that hard to assign sectors some sort of "supercoordinate"
>to tell the program where the sectors relate to each other, so then it
>can do the mapping job? And a grey blotch labelled "Data Not
>Available" showing up on the map if, perchance, the data is NOT
>available.

I've been thinking about this all day. The first stumbling block I came up
against was the ultimate limits of such a scheme ( ie: where do you draw the
line ? ). You want to see worlds in subsectors in adjacent sectors, but what
happens when the next sector isn't in the Imperium anymore (ie: It's off the map
entirely ) ?

So I decided to moot the following ultimate World ID code ( which qualifies as
"Idea A") : AA-BB-CCCC
where AA represents the Quadrant in which the world exists ( the official map or
the imperium shows one quadrant ), BB is the Sector ID within the Quadrant, and
CCCC is the current World ID code based on a the sector wide number system as
used in the Library Data (N-Z) maps.

There are ( arbitrarily ) 99 Quadrants in Traveller space labelled 1-9 across
and 1-9 down. They are identified by concatenating their co-ordinates together,
so that the Imperium ( which fits right in the middle in order to allow
exploration for four quadrants in any direction ) is identified as quadrant 5,5
( or 55 for short ).

Then each quadrant ( according to the Traveller Map of the Imperium ) is 16
sectors across and 8 deep, so if we label them A..P across the top we get
sectors A,1 to P,8 ( A1..P8 for short ).

And each Sector has 16 subsectors, but we ignore these when identifying worlds
as the worlds use the sector wide numbering system from 0101..3240.

However, the subsectors are identified in Col,Row format when listing the
subsector names in a data file : 1,1 to 4,4 ( or 11..44 for short ).

This means that Regina Subsector would be 55-E3-31
and Regina ( the world ) would be 55-E3-1910  ( or 55E31910 as stored on file ).

Of course there may be other ways of doing this, and I am tossing a couple of
other ideas:
B) Create a code based on the worlds position within the 81 quadrants ( though
this would have limited use, and be impossible for mere mortals to decode ), or
C) Create a code which includes the subsector ID in it in order to seperate out
the data for a given subsector easier. This is tempting, but again, I'm not
sure.

The problem is that all three code systems have their use within any mapping
software. For practical purposes however, I feel obliged to go with the most
human readable format, and use the power of the computer to translate it when I
need another format.

And the worst case test senario is where four quadrants meet in a corner, and I
need to show worlds from all four on my four-subsector map.

What do you think ?

Simon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 16:27 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: re: Traveller Map Display program
Message-ID: <m0tqtbK-0002iIC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) writes:

>What he's asking for is a "realtime" *map* of the system. And you'd
>better believe it's necessary. How else are the players going to be
>able to figure out *how* to get from one planet to another inside the
>same system. Even in CT, most of this info exists (Book 6 Scouts).
>
>Look at the situation with Earth and Mars. At closest approach, they
>are only .6 AU apart. At farthest, they are not only 2,6 AU apart, but
>the sun is *directly* between them.
>
>Planetary orbits do get ugly to calculate, but if you restrict things
>to circular orbits, then the calcs you'd need for the map (and
>associated "course plotting" aids) are pretty simple.
>
>And in some systems, this sort of thing will even affect merely going
>out to the 100 diameter limit to jump, simply because the planet is so
>close to the star that you have to go to the *star's* 100 dia. limit.

I've written quite a bit on my views about the relevance of in-system travel to
the average player in another message today. However, you're the third person to
mention this in detail in the last week, so who knows.

>4.  As noted above, random world/system/sector generation.  Add the
>ability to preset some of the parameters so you don't have to press
>the randomize button a billion times to get what you want.
>
>>No. I won't be doing any sort of generation if I can avoid it. There
>>are dozens of generation programs out there, and more being mooted
>>every day. My intention is to allow users to import and display the
>>output of those programs.
>
>The problem here is that there's no standard format for *storing* some
>of the data from a system generator in machine readable format. So
>unless you want the users to type in all of it by hand, you'll either
>have to make a deal with someone writing a system generator or at least
>restrict your program to working with the output of just a few of them.

I've thought of this. I'll allow users to create a schema file to identify the
bits of data within an incoming text file. And realistically, I expect most of
the data to come from one or two existing sources where committed sector
designers have been working on the results for years already.

I'm designing this program primarily as an aid to those who want to _play_
Traveller rather than those who want to just generate sectors ( although it
should appeal to them too ).

>>For maximum portability purposes this program will be written for
>>Windows 3.1 so it will run on Win 95 ( I'm using Win 95 myself ).

>Unfortunately, I can't *run* Windows 3.1. I can just barely run 3.0,
>and it generally isn't worth it on this system.
>You might consider making the Mark 1, Mod 1 version a "text" only
>version under DOS.

<cringe> I'm really sorry. Really sorry. Seriously. But even microsoft has
finally realised that DOS has to go. I'm only making this Win 3.1 compatible
under protest ( and because most of the market is still there ). There's no way
that this sort of program could run under DOS anymore.

>If I could find an HTML editor that ran under DOS, I'd be writing up a
>hypertext document for most Traveller stuff. One starting point would
>be a graphic of the entire galaxy. Click on that, and the picture fills
>the screen, with markings indicating "known" space. Click on that and
>you get the map of known space (plus some extras). Then you can click
>on whatever it is thaty they call those 4-sector groups. Then on
>sectors, subsectors, hexes, etc. All the time with a sidebar giving
>info on whatever is showing... Ideally, it'd go all the way down to
>street maps for the places you have them.

This is kind of what I have in mind ( see my posting about Universal world IDs
in this edition ), but I'm not sure how practical getting down below planetary
level would be as the graphic storage starts to become a real problem ( you go
from boxes and hexes to street maps or land boundaries ).

>Another entry point is the library computer. Just take all the library
>entries, TNS items, etc, etc and link them up.
>

And get sued by MM for copyright infringment <g>. No thanks. I'll leave that one
to MM if the product takes off and he decides to support it. We will have
_extensive_ facilities for writing notes about anything you can think of to do
with the maps or your campaign or your own Lirbary Data for that matter.

Simon.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 22:16:21 -0800 (PST)
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Law & Justice in the Imperium
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9602252230.A6466-0100000@well>

In TD 610, George Herbert replied to my comments about law and justice in
the Imperium.  Let me set out a few initial replies. I haven't seen TD
611 yet.

>>To my friends at HIWG:  this thread has been developing on the Traveller

>I would appreciate if someone would forward this reply to any HIWG
>mailing lists, as I am not on them...

Leroy Guatney advised me on Sat 24 Feb that hiwg-list@fwe.com was down.
As soon as it is up, I'll cross-post your comments there.

>>states: "The MOJ usually places a minimum of one field agent per planet,
>>with one additional agent per 100,000 population."  Id. at 23, col. 3:
>>That's just unworkable.

>On the contrary; it is eminently workable.  Compared to the IN, ISS, or
>any of the other agencies, this is probably a completely trivial segment
>of the imperial workforce, and is about the minimum needed to deal with
>the normal workload of imperial interest crime and with local emergencies
>(i.e., shiploads of crazy PCs).  Given the importance of prompt
>enforcement of the Imperial and High Justice laws should they be violated,
>the MoJ cannot afford to leave any system unmonitored.

We need to look at the numbers.  What is the total population of the
Imperium (let's say ca. 1100)?  It's a huge number that has been
calculated, but I don't have it at my fingertips.  What is that divided by
100,000?  It's still a huge number.  Yes, compared to the uniformed
services it is small, but the uniformed services are disproportionately
large.  It's better to compare the MoJ with the Ministries of
Colonization, Standards, Revenues, Science & Technology, Transportation,
Finance, Interior, and Economics.  They're all big bureaucracies, they're
all orders of magnitude small than the uniformed services, and they're all
competing for shares of the budget.

>>The political economy of the Imperium determines its legal systems or
<quoted material deleted>
>>The Imperium thus not only has no reason not to care about individuals and
<quoted material deleted>

>This is not an unreasonable statement, and I can go along with it to a
>large degree.  But I think you misinterpreted my article.

>There was a subtle undercurrent in the article which appears to have been
>too subtle.  The civil rights situation in the Imperium is not nearly as
>strong as the US today (that much is evident from reading the first
>section of the article).

I agree, and wasn't suggesting that the article put the Imperium in a role
like that of the U.S. government.

>It is in fact weaker than that section of the article would be read on
>first inspection. Note that local governments can supress some rights, and
>often do. Also, note the lack of criminal laws covering civil rights
>violations. While frowned upon, such violations by authorities are not
>really handled within the legal system.

I agree; the solutions to civil rights problems are political, not legal.

>As severe violations break down the trust bewteen the population and the
>Imperial nobility and government and agencies, most agencies have internal
>rules against abuse without very good reason, and the Nobility will act
>(even against its own members) if they percieve that rights violations are
>destabilizing the local situation.

Who's doing the abusing?  If Imperial nobles are merely letting it happen
on their watch, I don't think that anyone will do anything except those
being abused.

Imperial agencies are not supposed to abuse local populations, because it
interferes with local autonomy (i.e., I agree, they have rules).

If Imperial nobles are directly involved outside their own fiefs, other
nobles will act, but only if the abuse is threatening Imperial security.
A threat to Imperial security could of course arise by publicity about the
abuse, which "break[s] down the trust."

Imperial nobles can do what they want on their own fiefs; what's the point
of having an aristocracy if it can't exercise absolute power somewhere?
N.B., of course, that reigns like Caligula's don't last long (-4470 to
-4466).

>But there is nothing similar to the civil rights laws we have in the US
>today.

Agreed.

>>In some situations, the Imperium will interfere with local autonomy, but
>>only when a threat to Imperial or regional security is manifest.  For
<quoted material deleted>

>This is basically correct.  Please re-read the article;

Not tonight, but I will.

>these are, with a couple of exceptions, either local or recognized law
>areas.  The Imperial MoJ does not get involved in local law (except as its
>field agents find it convenient),

We disagree here.  The MoJ never finds it convenient to get involved with
local law.  Local governments might invite them, or another Ministry, to
help with problems that they can't handle.

>nor in recognized law to any large degree.  Their only activities in
>recognized law cases are, in coordination with local authorities in the
>current planet of residence, aprehending those who have arrest warrants
>pending for recognized crimes.

I agree that local authorities may from time to time solicit MoJ
assistance in these matters (with the proviso that the MoJ doesn't
maintain as many offices as you would have them do).

>They do not prosecute them and are not generally involved in
>investegating them, they merely assist in the aprehention and extradition
>process, if that.

See above.

>The exceptions are the Imperial Crimes of murder and kidnapping; these
>are specifically stated to be enforced only on starships and
>extraterritorial installations.  Activities like that on starships and
>starports and the like *are* threats to the interstellar trading system...

Agreed.

>>Now Imperial law itself -- the law in effect at Imperial installations
<quoted material deleted>

>>Imperial law does include a number of criminal laws, which are not too
<quoted material deleted>

>Theft, embezzlement, and fraud are bad for business but easily handled
by local laws and/or the smuggling and great theft recognized laws.

Theft, etc. occurring where there is no local law -- "at Imperial
installations and in space between star systems" is not governed by local
law (I don't remember what recognized law is; I'll have to look it up),
but only by Imperial law, which prohibits what's bad for business (or is
malum in se).

>Smaller incidents are not of imperial purview.

Again, where there is no local law, there is applicable Imperial law.  It
may not recognize the particular act as a crime.  The size of the crime
is immaterial.

>If everything that was bad for business was illegal at the Imperial level
>there would be no end to the legal system being pulled into the trade wars
>which break out from time to time.

Go back and read what I said:  I was only talking about acts that were bad
for business where there is no local law, where only Imperial law is in
effect.  Tradewar is illegal.  See The Traveller Adventure at 108 ("In the
Imperium, the rule of law is sometimes tenuous.  In the vast distancs
between the stars, the long arm of the law is sometimes not quite long
enough, and companies can go beyond competition in the normal sense --
into tradewar....Violence being generally illegal, tradewar is practical
only in situations where its perpetrators can assume there will be no
reprisals from the law.  Sometimes, a company with great resources can
bribe or coerce government into looking the other way.").

>A more lassiez-faire attitude exists, so that only significant breaches
>of the trade peace are acted on by Imperial authorities (instead of
>locals).

I agree.

>>The Imperial Criminal Code also prohibits crimes against
<<quoted material deleted>

>Yep.  High Justice Crimes are exactly that...

>>Imperial law also includes numerous civil law provisions, which are more
>>important to the day to day life of NPCs (if not PCs) than any criminal
<quoted material deleted>

>Most of these are not issues of interest to Traveller campaigns, IMHO.
>Flavor for the background, perhaps, but not likely to come into play.

Agreed.  Have you ever had anyone who wanted to play an accountant or a
commercial lawyer?  Nevertheless, we should note that their existance and
importance to the background.

>>The Imperium does not maintain a police force per se.  Enforcement of
>>Imperial law is left to the executives in charge of those places where
>>Imperial law applies:  Captains of starships, directors of research
>>stations, and Sky Port Authority Executive Directors call on their
>>security departments for law enforcement.  Crimes not implicating a
>>noble or Imperial security are dealt with on site, with the executive
>>sitting as chief judge of a panel and counsel representing both sides
>>presenting the case.  Appeal is to the local Imperial Judicial Court.

>I *strongly* disagree with this sort of take on who is the responsible
>police force.  There are a number of Imperial Crimes which are very
>important to the ongoing function of the Imperium; leaving this up to the
>varied competence and strength of local installations is most unlike the
>Imperial way of doing things.

I was talking about Imperial law applying where there is no local law
(starships in jump, research stations, starports, etc.).  I think you'll
agree that if crew members Smith and Chiang get into a fight aboard their
merchant ship in jump, the captain will deal with it in accordance with
Imperial law.  If Smith and Chiang mutiny and try to hijack the ship, the
captain will again be the appropriate enforcer of Imperial law (although
as a practical matter the captain will also be a witness, and therefore
not qualified to serve as judge), at least initially.

I agree that as to crimes that are "important to the ongoing function of
the Imperium," the Imperium has professionals and specialists who deal
with them, like the Ministry of Finance to deal with financial or
securities fraud on an interstellar scale, or naval and military
intelligence to deal with terrrorism.

>Whenever there is something of significant interest to the Imperium, and
>the stability of trade and avoidance of things like great assault
>definitely count, the Imperium makes a central ministry or service to
>handle it in a standard and accountable (to the Emperor) manner.  Hence
>the formation of the Ministry of Justice.  It is far too much to ask that
>every starport administrator, every ship commander be good enough to deal
>with the vagarities of serious crimes, investegating them, aprehending
>serious criminals, etc.  That calls for a professional law enforcement
>organization, not difuse authority.

No, the few crimes that come to a starport administrator, ship commander,
etc., are generally well within their capabilities.  Notice that I said
"few crimes."  These people only perform law enforcement activities when
there is no local law, and no local law enforcement.  Law enforcement is
not a big part of their jobs.  If something is too big for such an
official, it probably has a significant local component, and local law and
law enforcement should deal with it.

If a criminal is too violent, dangerous, or well-armed, call the Marines.
See, e.g., Loren K. Wiseman, Champa Interstellar Starport, 7 JTAS 7, 12
("Although, strictly speaking, the law level of the starport permits any
weapon to be carried openly, the laws against property damage, murder, and
extortion are rigidly enforced, by the battalion of Imperial Marines (TL
15) barracked at the scout base, if necessary.").

>>The Ministry of Justice Special Branch is the Imperial secret police,
>>and is charged with enforcing the laws against crimes against the
>>Imperium.  This is largely a matter of counter intelligence work.  The
>>MoJ also provides prosecutors for crimes against the Imperium, and
>>advises the Emperor and Moot on issues relating to crime and social
>>order, based on its ongoing research and monitoring.

>Eh.  The MoJ has authority over all of these, but things like
>counterintel work and the like are handled in cooperation with Naval
>Intelligence and the other varied intel agencies.

I basically agree; NI and other intel agencies actually do the
counter-intelligence, "in cooperation with" the MoJ, as the enabling edict
no doubt states.

>The Imperium does not have a single unified "secret police"
>organization;

The MoJ tries to be, but the Imperium is too big and its resources too
small, so it focusses its efforts where they will be rewarded:  in the
Solomani Rim, in other border regions, and at Capital. In those regions,
it can be a full-fledged secret police entity.

>the MoJ handles what it can on the mostly-criminal-and-threat-to-trade
side,

OK.  Some of the threat to trade stuff will be investigated and analyzed
by the Ministry of Finance, but prosecuted by MoJ.

>the Navy handles military threats to the peace (NI)

Yes

>and probably is tasked with diplomatic work,

No, that's Foreign Ministry.

>the Scout Service intel branch keeps an eye on things which might get
>missed by the more formal investegations, etc.

Yes.  IISS's Detached Duty Branch is a unique source of intelligence.

<quoted material about the Imperial Judicial Court system deleted>

>>Thank you for your attention. Your comments are as always appreciated.

>Glenn, I live in Berkeley and work in the south bay, if you'd like to
>talk in person about this at some time.  8-)

Check your email.

--Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:13:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Fleet refueling
Message-ID: <S9602261113.AA09125@sysc.abdn.ac.uk>


I would have thought that any defender fleet worth it's salt would have
placed defense systems within gas-giants.
A self refueling (fuel scoop/refining) double meson firing defense system
would cause havoc to any ship trying to refuel at the giant.
Of course this would only apply to *paranoid* planetary systems.
Which would apply IMHO to 70%+ of the Imperial planetary systems.

Now in the TNE setting.
Some of these are bound to be still active.
Possibly *virus* active.
And a possible scenario for "why are there 200 derelicts orbiting that GG".

Who knows.
These GG's may even be mined.



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:08:22 +0100
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Taxation
Message-ID: <v02140b00ad57510e13d2@[193.12.250.151]>

I have always wondered how the Imperial tax system works. Obviously the
amount of CR in taxes is enormous as they can afford the Imperial palace,
Tigresses et c. I figure that the subsector Duke keep a census of all
systems populations and demand payment based on the population. There has
to be different tax rates at different TLs, otherwise low tech world will
bleed to death and high tech ones will pay to little. If taxrate is TL
based however may lead to bribes towards the IISS to set the TL of a system
lower than it actually is (is this the real reason there are so many low TL
systems?).
The tax could be on trade instead giving the Imperium a very practical
reason why stopping the flow of trade is the worst crime of all.

Has anybody done anything about this? Please spare me "It works like in USA
but on a larger scale" or such "Yanks in space" stuff.

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 10:46:45 EST
From: "Brendan L. Walsh" <blw@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, traveller-request@MPGN.COM, rwm@MPGN.COM,
Subject: Test of mail to Ambassador from Sun
Message-ID: <199602261546.KAA24932@Sun.MPGN.COM>

Rob:
This is intended to test the mail delivery capability of
Ambassador, which is, or should be, sending originating mail to a hub,
namely Mithril.
This should not affect the delivery of mail TO Ambassador; more
specifically, it should not create a loop.
If you don't get mail for traveller, please let me know.
----------
Brendan

P.S. I looked at the /etc/aliases file on Ambassador and decieded to also
send to 'traveller-request' becausr iI don't know what effect
traveller:      "|/usr/users/server/catmail -L TRAVELLER -f"
will have.
blw

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 21:45:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Technology
Message-ID: <4T6VJD1w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Angus writes:

>** RANT MODE ON **
>What we don't need is something filled with doom, gloom and porno-
>graphic violence, as in the pathetic efforts of pimps like Drake and
>Stirling. The latter's Draka books, of which Alvin Plummer mentioned
>Drakon - hopefully the last ever - as an example of technology in SF in
>his missive to Mark in TML606, being just about the most unspeakably
>tasteless and badly written rubbish that I've ever seen. I managed about
>40 pages total - mostly culled at random to see if it really was as
>terrible as it seemed - out of the first three volumes (say 800 pages)
>at which point I stopped for fear of dying of apoplexy induced by the
>sheer uselessness and banality of the tripe I was reading. I'd rather
>read a year's worth of the Volkische Beobachter, the collected speaches
>of Adolf Hitler or every stupid or tasteless posting ever made to
>alt.revisionism than another page of that. I can't even begin to imagine
>a suitable fate for the author of this stuff, and I've got a pretty
>vivid imagination. Stuff like that might attract the sad gits that play
>Vampire, but we're probably better off without them until they get over
>their angst-ridden slacker adolescence.
>** RANT MODE OFF **

"De gustibus nondisputandum est"

If you read Stirling's *other* books, you'll see that he doesn't
approve of the Draka. He's accomplished the difficult task of
portraying *vile* people in a *vile* society in an objective manner. At
the same time the Draka are both admirable and detestable. They follow
their convictions and cultural mores right to the bitter end. You have
to admire that even as despise them for *holding* said convictions and
mores.

It *really* helps if you realize that Draka are less human *culturally*
than *any* alien race in Traveller. As such the things you find
"objectionable" are actually *necessary*. Stirling has done an
*excellent* job of following Campbell's dictum: Show me a creature that
thinks as *well* as a human but not *like* a human.

The Draka are not there as an example ofd how to act. They are there as
a warning that humanity can quite easily accept a culture that is
inhuman. If you think the Draka are bad, I can only assume that you
have never looked very closely at what went on in Cambodia, or in other
parts of history (both recent and ancient) that we'd rather not examine
too closely.

And while the technology is interesting, it doesn't overpower the
stories. In any case, the technology and the *culture* have little to
do with each other.



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 21:58:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: GG refueling
Message-ID: <Xg7VJD2w165w@krypton.rain.com>

It has occured to me the GG re-fueling may be even harder than we've
been thinking under MT and TNE.

As an example, what we usually think of with regards to Jupiter is that
the gravity is about 2.5 g at the top of the atmosphere. The problem is
that this is a *huge* radius. What we *should* be worrying about is the
*escape* velocity. Because that's what you need to get away after
skimming. And while the acceleration due to gravity drops as the square
of the distance, the escape velocity drops *linearly* with distance.

I may mis-remember the figures, but as I recall, the escape velocity
for jupiter at any given distance is something like 10 times that for
earth at the same distance. That's gonna use a *lot* of G-turns. How
many ships can make it to 100 km/sec?

The "critical" items you have to worry about are the *mass* of the
planet, and the radius (ie how close you get). At any given distance,
the escape velocity is directly proportional to the mass.

I wish I could give some calculations, but I don't have anything
listing either the mass *or* the radius of Jupiter (or even a "typical"
Traveller GG) handy.

Would someone who does, please figure out how many G-turns it takes to
do a skimming run? Don't forget, you are going to *have* to slow down
to make the run unless you want to fry....

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:14:05 +0000
From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: re: RC worlds & RICE Papers
Message-ID: <0099E7ED.E9FD7E20.7@v2.qub.ac.uk>

Paul,

I've got most of my Baldur paper written, needs fixing, but I
should have it on the page in the next few weeks.

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:35:44 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (traveller)
Subject: Map display program
Message-ID: <9602261635.AA02265@Rt66.com>


Howdy,

My two credits on the in-system issue:

Yes, I'd like to see it.

Lane (the ref I play with) said that he didn't detail in-system stuff
because it was a pain... but if it were on the computer, he'd use it in
a heartbeat.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:07:19 -0600
From: fredm@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: HePLar Thrust and Compensated G's
Message-ID: <199602262107.PAA24939@osh1.datasync.com>

Can anyone show me a formula or chart that tells me how many G-turns I can
spend and still have the G's compensated.  I was thinking(a dangerous
passtime when we are talking physics) that this would create a problem with
in system travel in Traveller.  I was probably thinking wrong, and I'm
asking to be corrected by someone wiser than me.  If you need someont to
tell you where to purchase parts for a Barge your building, please feel free
to let me return the favor.


Paul  {tiger}

"54-40 or Fight!" - TBWSK


P.S. - I'm still looking for a playing group in South Mississippi.  Please
help if you can.

P.P.S. - I'm still looking for extended system/survey data on the RC based
on WTH and the Extended Generation Tables.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 17:21:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T610] RC and RICE Papers
Message-ID: <8BB8411.010006C34C.uuout@execnet.com>


T::>On a related line, are there any RICE equivalent papers for the RC.  If so,
 ::>I would like to see them.  If not, I would like a copy of the RICE Paper
 ::>format to start writing some.

 I'm not aware of any "RC RICE Papers" having been written.  The
 documentation of the RICE Paper format for planets can be found on
 my Traveller page - http://www.execnet.com/~jeffz/travellr.html
 and then select the links for "About RICE" and "Interpreting the
 extended UWP".  (I forgot the exact names of the files, believe it
 or not!)

 Although you could certainly use the format as documented, I'd
 prefer that they _not_ be called RICE Papers, unless they deal
 with Regency or Spinward States topics - RICE, after all, stands
 for "REGENCY Institute for Cultural Education".  Just off the top
 of my head, I suppose you could call them "Coalition And Beyond
 Library Extracts" - CABLEs.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00a  Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 17:21:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T611] Traveller Dates
Message-ID: <8BB8411.010006C34D.uuout@execnet.com>


T::>Could some one tell me what the various dating methods used in TNE are.

T::>I have seen reference to 231-1102 which I recognise as an Imperial date,
 ::>but how many days are there to a year?

 365.  No intercalary (leap) days.  Day 001 is not assigned to any
 of the traditional 7-day weeks.

T::>Also I have seen dates such as 12/V/1102 -- How many days in a Month, and 
How
 ::>many months to the year.

 Reformation Coalition new dating - 365 days in a year; I don't
 remember the other details off-hand.  Check the main TNE rulebook.
 I'd use our standard calendar for this one, and again ignore the
 intercalations.

 Solomani Confederation dating used our calendar, complete with
 intercalations.

 The Vilani used a 500-day year, with each day being 32 hours long.
 Days and nights were arbitrarily fixed at 16 hours each, and were
 numbered separately and consecutively from 000 to 999.  Dates
 were written yyyy.ddd.  This was in Cogs and Dogs, if I remember
 correctly.

 The Zhodani and Aslan calendars were in their respective CT Alien
 Modules (and the Aslan was in Rats and Cats, as well).  Both used
 unequal seasons integrally in their dating systems; the Zhodani
 also used the three-(Zhodani)-year "olympiad" as a component.

 There's no reason not to use a local calendar where appropriate;
 just make it have some relationship to the rotational and
 revolutional cycles of the planet, and justify it however you want.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00a  Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 612
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 613

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: GG refueling by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 612 by library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
  3) Re: GG refueling by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  4) Re: GG refueling by Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
  5) Re: Map Display Program by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  6) Email games by gregw@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu (greg walker)
  7) Re: gas giant refueling by gregw@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu (greg walker)
  8) Re: Map Display Program by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  9) Multiple Rolls in One (A bit long, sorry!) by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
 10) Traveller Map Display program by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 00:39:10 +0100
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GG refueling
Message-ID: <v02140b00ad57f453fec0@[193.12.250.151]>

>As an example, what we usually think of with regards to Jupiter is that
>the gravity is about 2.5 g at the top of the atmosphere. The problem is
>that this is a *huge* radius. What we *should* be worrying about is the
>*escape* velocity. Because that's what you need to get away after
>skimming. And while the acceleration due to gravity drops as the square
>of the distance, the escape velocity drops *linearly* with distance.

>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Turn on your CG units (which draw 2.5 times the normal amount of power I
think) and thrust for one turn if you're short on fuel and twiddle your
thumbs while the ship glides from the GG.

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 14:11:07 -0600
From: library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 612
Message-ID: <199602280008.OAA25874@babylon5.dss.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Just to let you know, I'll be losing this net address on the 29th.

Hopefully, I'll be able to re-join you all by piggy-backing on a mate's
account. Yes, I am arranging my own (!!!) net address, but there is a
2-month wait for this gem.

If you have any queries for me, pls send them to:
        nkelly@pcug.com.au

- Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
Library
Dept. of Social Security
Box 7788
Canberra Mail Centre ACT 2610


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:38:47 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GG refueling
Message-ID: <9602270438.AA13383@Rt66.com>


> I may mis-remember the figures, but as I recall, the escape velocity
> for jupiter at any given distance is something like 10 times that for
> earth at the same distance. That's gonna use a *lot* of G-turns. How
> many ships can make it to 100 km/sec?

If we assume that the ship has a mass small compared to planet mass, M, then:

Vesc = SQRT(2GM/r)

Jupiter has a mass of 1.9E27 kg or so.

Earth is like 6E24 kg.  That's a 17.8 times difference for a given r.

> Would someone who does, please figure out how many G-turns it takes to
> do a skimming run? Don't forget, you are going to *have* to slow down
> to make the run unless you want to fry....

What velocity?  Hmmmm.  5km/s, maybe (~1/3 hex per BL turn)?
Vesc(jup.)=~60km/s

Drag goes as v^2 on earth, right?  Hmmm.  At the least you'd need
~55km/s to escape, though you could get a low GG orbit with less.  You'd
need 3.3 gturns.  CG would change this, as would taking drag into account.
And that assumes we only skim ~1000km deep.

I'd think SL ships would enter slower than AF, and USLs would get ripped
to pieces in the wind (and if they drifted with it, they'd need powerful
compressor pumps to suck air in) if you were wanting to let thema.  I
have to say that I prefer no CG as it makes skimming more dangerous in
combat (and in general).

I'd think that since the CG lifters take up a large surface area on the
belly of the ship that they should take hits as a surface feature like
antennas (or the EMMRs).  Kill some of the CG and you kill the ship.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:07:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GG refueling
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.91.960226214040.19704B-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>


> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> [re: delta-v requirements for GG skimming]
> Would someone who does, please figure out how many G-turns it takes to
> do a skimming run? Don't forget, you are going to *have* to slow down
> to make the run unless you want to fry....

Oh, *man*, this gets convoluted.  Let's start out with HEPlaR, but no
CG.  Basic structure of a skimming run, version 1:

Start out in distant orbit around GG.  Cancel most orbital velocity with a
relatively small burn.  Drop like the proverbial rock on a skinny
elliptical orbit, the periastron of which just brushes the GG's outer
atmosphere.  Open scoops, get fuel.  Lose some velocity to drag, do a
short burn to make up for it.  Coast back up and away.  Do a third short
burn to regain distant orbit.

Doing it this way is most energy-efficient, but runs into two major
problems:

1) The in- and outbound legs take a long time -- many days to weeks.

2) The in-atmosphere speed is very high, perhaps too high to be
structurally workable.

This leads us naturally to skimming run, version 2:

Start out far from GG.  Burn down to close-orbit radius, then do a *big*
burn to circularize your orbit there -- or rather, not quite circularize.
Instead, you want a slight ellipse, the periastron side of which is just
inside the atmosphere.  Open scoops during much longer, slower trip
through atmosphere.  Burn as needed to combat drag.  On return to
(relative) vacuum, do another burn as big as your circularizing burn to
pick up escape velocity from your close circular orbit.

This has the major disadvantage that you squander a bunch of the fuel you
just skimmed getting away from the GG.  Also, it doesn't work if you have
nearly dry tanks -- notice that a big burn is required *before* you
refuel.

So, obviously, Traveller canon fails miserably without CG.  Either GG
refueling takes far too long and requires ridiculous in-atmosphere
speeds, or it has too little net benefit to be worthwhile.  Fortunately,
CG (much as I dislike it in general) comes to the rescue here.

With CG, you can all but ignore gravitational effects -- and hence
sidestep the whole escape velocity question.  Here's CG-enabled skimming,
version 3:

Using a combination of modulated gravity from the GG and small burns, aim
yourself tangent to the GG at your desired skim speed.  Activate "full"
CG, cancelling most of gravity.  Coast toward the GG at constant velocity
(both direction and speed).  On entering the atmosphere, modulate CG such
that there's enough force to bend your path around the planet, staying at
the edge of the atmosphere.  As drag slows you down, either burn a
little, or turn up the CG to compensate.  When the tanks are topped off,
max out the GG, and presto, you're sailing away from the GG in quite
nearly a straight line, along the direction (tangent to the edge of the
atmosphere) of your velocity when you turned it on full.  Coast out to
where the escape velocity is minimal, turn off the CG, and jump or
m-drive or whatever it is you need to do next.

This also suggests a fairly striking discovery -- that a ship without CG
can't effectively skim a gas giant!  Comments, anyone?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Berry                      CompuServe cancellation ID: 11089132
cberry@cinenet.net               Don't support Net censorship!
---------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 01:28 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Map Display Program
Message-ID: <m0trOWX-0002hoC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

Merrick wrote :
>My two credits on the in-system issue:
>Yes, I'd like to see it.
>Lane (the ref I play with) said that he didn't detail in-system stuff
>because it was a pain... but if it were on the computer, he'd use it in
>a heartbeat.

I'm starting to feel outvoted on this issue <g>. It certainly seems popular
enough to include. Consider it added to the version 2.0 feature list.

Does anyone out there _disagree_ with the "in-system map displays are critical"
crowd (ie: thinks that mapping below the level of the standard hex map is a
waste of time ) ?

Simon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 09:07:50 EST
From: gregw@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu (greg walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Email games
Message-ID: <9602271407.AA09361@dizzy.ldgo.columbia.edu>

There's a few of us talking about setting up an email traveller game.

If anybody knows more about the mechanics of refereeing it, or wants to put 
there name down for when it really starts up, drop us a line at either:

gregw@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu  ( for the nexxt month)

or

walker@esc.cam.ac.uk

thanks

greg walker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 10:42:14 EST
From: gregw@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu (greg walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: gas giant refueling
Message-ID: <9602271542.AA09498@dizzy.ldgo.columbia.edu>

The comment about g-turns needed to escape a gas giant is correct - it is truly 
horrendous. But this is only if you start off at rest.

The mechanics of normal Traveller interplanetary stuff don't handle it well, as 
the g-turns are normally those required to permanently change to a new
  (circular) orbit.
 In this refueling maneuver, you change orbit to an ellipse, to skim the 
surface and then come back out again to almost the same radius. As you never 
start
  from the surface ( except for such weird things as the Jagd) you never have 
to really pay this cost.

The trick is skimming high enough that you don't burn up, and low enough to 
skim enough. Yes, a totally "safe" way given CG is to bring yourself totally to
  rest with respect to the atmosphere.

 Allow that the atmosphere doesn't just end - it decays sort of exponentially. 
And a ship travelling fast enough will scoop AV, for drag AVV. So multiply the
  mass you scoop by the skimming velocity ( 100km/s ?) as the impulse. divide 
by the loaded mass of craft, and again divide by 18000, and you get the thrust
  in g-turns to get you back out.

 Time doesn't really feature in this part - you can skim arbitrarily high, to 
avoid burning, and still scoop something. In fact, the lighter gases you are
  affter are more likely to be at the top.
 Whether this allows time for the fuel scoop rating is something else. I don't 
have the figures for that. I'll just consider all the drag and thrust required.

take a 100 dt craft,1000 t mass, 50t fuel. - effectively a scout (don't have 
exact mass to hand), with 50% of volume as fuel tanks.

50 tons at 1000 km per second is 5000000 t m/s impulse.
For the scout, this is 5000 m/s delta v,  or about 1/3 g-turn.

of course, not all the stuff that causes the drag will be scooped, only a 
fraction, but as order of magnitude, it works. Even a factor of 10 increases 
this
  to 3g-turn. The ship's launch, the 10dt thing, could manage this.

Remember, 18km/s is 1 g-turn. Under traveller, GG escape is only 5 g-turn.

The critical thing is not loosing manueverability during the skimming. dropping 
the nose of a craft could be enough for aerodynamics to take over, and plunge
  the craft into the deep atmosphere. I remeber seeing an article a few digests 
ago that agreed with this. Any kind of spine or maneuver hit is dangerous, and
  any kinetic effect even more so.

Hope I haven't made too many mistakes

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:37:39 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Map Display Program
Message-ID: <9602271637.AA12466@Rt66.com>


>Does anyone out there _disagree_ with the "in-system map displays are critical"
> crowd (ie: thinks that mapping below the level of the standard hex map is a
> waste of time ) ?
>
> Simon.

Simon,

I think that the point is that while it may not be critical, this is
just the thing that a lot of us have always wanted---an easy (for the
ref) way to provide in-system detail.  Unfortunately what is easy for
the ref is more work for you :-)

I would suggest (I think I saw it posted as an idea before, actually)
having any systems with canon in-system info pre-entered, and a button
to generate an extended system after the fact, then save it.

Regards,
Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:11:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>,
Subject: Multiple Rolls in One (A bit long, sorry!)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960227140823.17936A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All. I was recently contemplating creating yet another set of space
combat rules.  In the past, one of the things I've come up against is the
problem of large numbers of weapons on ships.  A 100 000 ton battleship
can potentially have 3000 weapons on it.  In HG, this problem is partially
solved by forcing the designer to put weapons into batteries (though you
can still end up with scores of batteries, which is a drag).  This is an
adequate solution, but a bit cludgy in my opinion.  If I want to have 3000
factor-1 beam weapons, I should be allowed to, dammit!  :-)

So, to solve this problem, I've come up with the following tables.  They
are based on something I saw in Dragon magazine many years ago.  They
allow the resolution of many rolls with a single roll.  The title of each
table indicates the number of rolls you are resolving.  To resolve the
rolls, just figure out your target (with total DMs subtracted) and
cross ref with a 1d20 roll down the side.  The body of the table shows the
number of successes/hits/whatever. I've included tables for resolving
groups of 10 and 50 rolls.  I will be creating tables for 5 and 20 rolls
as well, but I didn't include them because I didn't want this post to be
_too_ long.  Tables for numbers of rolls above 50 are kind of pointless.
The distributions become pretty stable and normalized after 30.  If you
want to resolve 100 rolls, just roll on the 50 roll table and double it.
A set of 500 rolls can be resolved by multiplying by 10, etc.

Okay, here are the infamous tables, already:


10 ROLLS (2d6)

                           Target
     2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10   11   12
-----------------------------------------------------------
1    10   8    7    6    5    3    1    0    0    0    0
2    10   9    8    7    5    4    2    1    0    0    0
3    10   9    8    7    6    4    2    1    0    0    0
4    10   9    8    7    6    4    3    2    1    0    0
5    10   9    9    8    6    5    3    2    1    0    0
6    10   10   9    8    6    5    3    2    1    0    0
7    10   10   9    8    7    5    3    2    1    0    0
8    10   10   9    8    7    5    4    2    1    0    0
9    10   10   9    8    7    6    4    3    1    1    0
10   10   10   9    8    7    6    4    3    1    1    0
11   10   10   9    9    7    6    4    3    2    1    0
12   10   10   9    9    8    6    4    3    2    1    0
13   10   10   10   9    8    6    5    3    2    1    0
14   10   10   10   9    8    7    5    4    2    1    0
15   10   10   10   9    8    7    5    4    2    1    0
16   10   10   10   9    8    7    5    4    2    1    1
17   10   10   10   9    9    7    6    4    3    2    1
18   10   10   10   10   9    8    6    5    3    2    1
19   10   10   10   10   9    8    6    5    3    2    1
20   10   10   10   10   10   9    7    6    4    3    2



50 ROLLS (2d6)

                           Target
     2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10   11   12
----------------------------------------------------------
1    50   46   42   37   31   24   15   9    4    1    0
2    50   47   43   38   32   25   16   10   5    2    0
3    50   47   44   38   33   26   17   11   6    2    0
4    50   48   44   39   34   27   18   11   6    2    0
5    50   48   45   40   34   27   18   12   7    3    0
6    50   48   45   40   35   28   18   12   7    3    1
7    50   48   45   41   35   28   19   13   7    3    1
8    50   48   46   41   35   29   19   13   8    3    1
9    50   49   46   41   36   29   20   13   8    4    1
10   50   49   46   42   36   29   20   14   8    4    1
11   50   49   46   42   36   30   20   14   8    4    1
12   50   49   46   42   37   30   21   14   9    4    1
13   50   49   47   42   37   30   21   15   9    4    2
14   50   49   47   43   37   31   21   15   9    5    2
15   50   49   47   43   38   31   22   15   10   5    2
16   50   50   47   43   38   32   22   16   10   5    2
17   50   50   48   44   39   32   23   16   11   6    2
18   50   50   48   44   39   33   24   17   11   6    3
19   50   50   48   45   40   34   25   18   12   7    3
20   50   50   49   46   41   35   26   19   13   8    4



These can be useful for a number of things.  For example, consider a group
of 60 Zhodani Elite Troops firing FGMP's at your ship (eek!).  To figure
out how many hit, take their target (e.g. 4+) and cross-ref with a roll of
1d20 down the side of the 50 ROLLS table.  Then do the same for the 10
ROLLS table.  Add the two obtained values together, and voila, you've got the
number of hits.  With tables for 5, 10, 20, and 50 rolls, just about any
number of 2D6 rolls can be resolved with 5 or fewer 1d20 rolls.  Example:
273 rolls requires one roll on table of 50 (multiply by 5), one roll on
table of 20, and (if you want to be anal) 3 normal 2d6 rolls.  3130 rolls
requires one roll on table of 50 (multiply by 62), one roll on table of
20, and one roll on table of 10.  On the other hand, for really big
numbers like this, you can just take the average number of hits.

If anyone wants an explanation as to how I came up with these tables, I
can send them one, I just figured most people on the list wouldn't want to
listen to my statistical babbling.  For those of you who are stats-savvy,
I should briefly mention that the distributions of results in the tables
are based on binomial distributions, but are somewhat leptokurtic (ooh, a
10$ word!) due to rounding.  This means that the results using them will
tend slightly more towards the average than they would if you actually
rolled all the rolls separately.

Yikes, this has gotten longer than I intended!

I welcome any comments or criticisms (i.e., let me know if I screwed up the
math! :-), and hope people find this useful.

Happy Travellin',
Charles.

<0> "As more dice are rolled, the empirical approaches the theoretical." <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca),   <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.    <0>
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.    <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html  <0>



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 10:44:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller Map Display program
Message-ID: <2J1yJD1w165w@krypton.rain.com>

simonm@ramhb.co.nz writes:

>jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan) wrote :
>
>>3) to answer the question: "What if I do (1) and/or (2) and the map
>>          extends into another sector?" Or up to three other sectors
>>          if you're at one of the corners. I want to be able to map
>>          data from more than one sector at once, since planets at the
>>          edge of the map shouldn't arbitrarily be cut off from worlds
>>          only one parsec away just because they're on the wrong side
>>          of the sector border.
>>Would it be that hard to assign sectors some sort of "supercoordinate"
>>to tell the program where the sectors relate to each other, so then it
>>can do the mapping job? And a grey blotch labelled "Data Not
>>Available" showing up on the map if, perchance, the data is NOT
>>available.
>
>I've been thinking about this all day. The first stumbling block I
>came up against was the ultimate limits of such a scheme ( ie: where
>do you draw the line ? ). You want to see worlds in subsectors in
>adjacent sectors, but what happens when the next sector isn't in the
>Imperium anymore (ie: It's off the map entirely ) ?
>
>So I decided to moot the following ultimate World ID code ( which
>qualifies as "Idea A") : AA-BB-CCCC where AA represents the Quadrant
>in which the world exists ( the official map or the imperium shows one
>quadrant ), BB is the Sector ID within the Quadrant, and CCCC is the
>current World ID code based on a the sector wide number system as used
>in the Library Data (N-Z) maps.
>
>There are ( arbitrarily ) 99 Quadrants in Traveller space labelled 1-9 across
>and 1-9 down.

Not so minor "nit". A 9x9 grid like that only has 81 quadrants in it. :-)

>They are identified by concatenating their co-ordinates together, so
>that the Imperium ( which fits right in the middle in order to allow
>exploration for four quadrants in any direction ) is identified as
>quadrant 5,5 ( or 55 for short ).

I used a simpler system when I made up my list of sectors (buried
somewhere in the archives).

Core sector is 00 (or 0000 if you think *really* big). This fits with
the known fact that the imperial "reference point" is there.

You just increase/decrease the base 36 sector numbers from there. A
diagram may help....

II .. IW IX IY IZ I0 I1 I2 I3 I4 .. II
. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
4I .. 4W 4X 4Y 4Z 40 41 42 43 44 .. 4I
3I .. 3W 3X 3Y 3Z 30 31 32 33 34 .. 3I
2I .. 2W 2X 2Y 2Z 20 21 22 23 24 .. 2I
1I .. 1W 1X 1Y 1Z 10 11 12 13 14 .. 1I
0I .. 0W 0X 0Y 0Z 00 01 02 03 04 .. 0I
ZI .. ZW ZX ZY ZZ Z0 Z1 Z2 Z3 Z4 .. ZI
YI .. YW YX YY YZ Y0 Y1 Y2 Y3 Y4 .. YI
XI .. XW XX XY XZ X0 X1 X2 X3 X4 .. XI
WI .. WW WX WY WZ W0 W1 W2 W3 W4 .. WI
. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
II .. IW IX IY IZ I0 I1 I2 I3 I4 .. II

 IHGFEDCBA9876543210
 IJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ0123456789ABCDEFGHI

Extending this to 4 digits is left as an excercise for the reader. :-)
But I think it has the virtue of simplicity. You can get an area 35
sectors *square* (1225 sectors) with no amibguities with just 2 digits.
That's 1120 parsecs by 1400 parsecs. It'd take close to 4 years for a
jump 6 xboat route to get data from one side to the other.

With 4 digit numbers you get a 1260x1260 grid. That's 1587600 sectors.
Or 40,320 parsecs by 50,400 parsecs. That's a rather *large* chunk of
the galaxy.... I'm fairly sure that 5 digits would get you the whole
galaxy. :-)

>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) writes:
>
>>Unfortunately, I can't *run* Windows 3.1. I can just barely run 3.0,
>>and it generally isn't worth it on this system.
>>You might consider making the Mark 1, Mod 1 version a "text" only
>>version under DOS.
>
><cringe> I'm really sorry. Really sorry. Seriously. But even microsoft
>has finally realised that DOS has to go. I'm only making this Win 3.1
>compatible under protest ( and because most of the market is still
>there ). There's no way that this sort of program could run under DOS
>anymore.

Actually, I daresay that it could so fairly *easily*. It's just that
you wouldn't get your windowing and the like handed to you. And you'd
have to actually worry about RAM usage. :-)

I started writing something like this on an *8-bit* system, and was
making progress. But switching to a PC (which *does* have better
compilers) rather sidetracked me for a few years. Then I started
*working* with them, and I haven't had the time to start over.  (My
data files are all that'd really be convertable <sigh>)

(BTW, I started programming in FORTRAN on an IBM 360 back in 72. I got
my first personal system back in 80. In 81 I was paying $300 for a
5.25" SSSD drive and considering it a good deal. And paying $30-50 for
a box of 10 SSSD 5.25 disks... Folks who didn't come up thru the old
systems don't realize how much *waste* there is in most programs these
days :-)

>>If I could find an HTML editor that ran under DOS, I'd be writing up a
>>hypertext document for most Traveller stuff. One starting point would
>>be a graphic of the entire galaxy. Click on that, and the picture fills
>>the screen, with markings indicating "known" space. Click on that and
>>you get the map of known space (plus some extras). Then you can click
>>on whatever it is thaty they call those 4-sector groups. Then on
>>sectors, subsectors, hexes, etc. All the time with a sidebar giving
>>info on whatever is showing... Ideally, it'd go all the way down to
>>street maps for the places you have them.
>
>This is kind of what I have in mind ( see my posting about Universal
>world IDs in this edition ), but I'm not sure how practical getting
>down below planetary level would be as the graphic storage starts to
>become a real problem ( you go from boxes and hexes to street maps or
>land boundaries ).

It's only unworkable if you insist on having that level of detail
*everywhere*. But there's very little reason to map the Gobi desert
with any higher resolution than 100s of meters.

But having the system set up so that you can access such levels of
detail *if available* is another matter. If I have the data, I should
be able to go all the way from the galaxy map to the interior layout of
the cantina in Mos Eisley<g> with only a few jumps. (galaxy, 35x35
sector map, sector, hex, planet, planetary "hex", feature (ie city),
city "hex", building, interior) Hmm. 10 jumps....

>>Another entry point is the library computer. Just take all the library
>>entries, TNS items, etc, etc and link them up.
>
>And get sued by MM for copyright infringment <g>. No thanks. I'll
>leave that one to MM if the product takes off and he decides to
>support it. We will have _extensive_ facilities for writing notes
>about anything you can think of to do with the maps or your campaign
>or your own Lirbary Data for that matter.

It ain't copyright infringement if I own copies of the material I
enter, and the result is for personal use. And I daresay that if I got
it together, Marc would either license it, or we could work out some
sort of deal.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com<--last resort

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 613
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 614

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Visit to Denmark by mhclark@iastate.edu
  2) GURPS Traveller by aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
  3) getting mail by hokido@primenet.com
  4) Fonts by Benjy Barton <Benjy@iap.net.au>
  5) Re: Traveller Map Display program by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  6) Re: GG Refueling by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  7) RE: Traveller Map Display program (everybody now...) by Andy Long <andylong@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
  8) Re: [T612] Taxation by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:10:15 CST
From: mhclark@iastate.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Visit to Denmark
Message-ID: <9602280010.AA04103@las2.iastate.edu>

  I'll be teaching at the University of Aarhus on a Fulbright from August
1996 to February 1997.  I'd be interested in meeting Danish gamers during
my visit - I don't speak the language, but I'll be happy to bring my
essentially complete collection of Traveller stuff along for folks to peruse.

---
Mark H Clark
mhclark@iastate.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:00:45 -0700
From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: GURPS Traveller
Message-ID: <199602272200.PAA20287@scratchy.itsnet.com>

I am planning on running a GURPS Traveller Campain, I have path of tears,
and will buy FF&S do I need the rulebook, or will I be ok without it (if I
need it should I buy the deluxe set?



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 23:02:34 +0000
From: hokido@primenet.com
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: getting mail
Message-ID: <9602280705.AA0023@ip176.mci.primenet.com>

Checking to see if I can send and receive mail

Kenji Houston
hokido@primenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:51:38 +0800
From: Benjy Barton <Benjy@iap.net.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Fonts
Message-ID: <313425AA.3329@iap.net.au>

Does anybody have these two fonts (Peignot Medium and Square721 Cn BT)
as the BL Ships combat sheet have been done with them and i don't have
fonts that small.
--
"What is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the
lamentations of their women! ." - Conan The Barbarian .

 "...and the skies shall be consumed in atomic fires and flesh burnt
from bone. His coming would be marked by war and fear and his dynasty
would have been known for its savage cruelty...
    ...save for one lone warrior."


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 23:37 NZDT
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Traveller Map Display program
Message-ID: <m0trjG3-0002jMC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) writes:

>>So I decided to moot the following ultimate World ID code ( which
>>qualifies as "Idea A") : AA-BB-CCCC where AA represents the Quadrant
>>in which the world exists ( the official map or the imperium shows one
>>quadrant ), BB is the Sector ID within the Quadrant, and CCCC is the
>>current World ID code based on a the sector wide number system as used
>>in the Library Data (N-Z) maps.
>>
>>There are ( arbitrarily ) 99 Quadrants in Traveller space labelled 1-9 across
>>and 1-9 down.
>
>Not so minor "nit". A 9x9 grid like that only has 81 quadrants in it. :-)

OK. A small Faux Pas.

>>They are identified by concatenating their co-ordinates together, so
>>that the Imperium ( which fits right in the middle in order to allow
>>exploration for four quadrants in any direction ) is identified as
>>quadrant 5,5 ( or 55 for short ).
>
>I used a simpler system when I made up my list of sectors (buried
>somewhere in the archives).

You have got to be joking <g>. Base 36 ! Simpler ??

>Core sector is 00 (or 0000 if you think *really* big). This fits with
>the known fact that the imperial "reference point" is there.
>
>You just increase/decrease the base 36 sector numbers from there. A
>diagram may help....
>  < Diagram removed >
>
>Extending this to 4 digits is left as an excercise for the reader. :-)
>But I think it has the virtue of simplicity. You can get an area 35
>sectors *square* (1225 sectors) with no amibguities with just 2 digits.
>That's 1120 parsecs by 1400 parsecs. It'd take close to 4 years for a
>jump 6 xboat route to get data from one side to the other.

Please refresh my memory. How big is a parsec exactly ?

>With 4 digit numbers you get a 1260x1260 grid. That's 1587600 sectors.
>Or 40,320 parsecs by 50,400 parsecs. That's a rather *large* chunk of
>the galaxy.... I'm fairly sure that 5 digits would get you the whole
>galaxy. :-)

Sure. This works, but lets face it : it's not the easiest thing for the average
guy to follow. People will use a product or system that they can understand.
Unfortunately we tend to over-complicate things that we're familiar with until
we know everything, but no-one wants to play with us anymore because they can't
understand the rules. I want a number system that a fourteen year old can follow
easily in his head.

Plus, I'm thinking of the fact that in the decade or more since Traveller was
created we still have only a small handful of sectors actually mapped properly (
with full world details, history, library data, etc), and the variety of
adventures possible in these are nearly infinite. And there are still at least a
hundred sectors in the Imperium itself to map yet. Frankly I believe a good
referee could have a party play for the rest of their ( actual / real time )
lives in the Spinward Marches without getting bored.

So I'm allowing for a playing area 80 times the size of what we haven't used
yet. I figure it should be enough for the next decade <g>.

>>There's no way that this sort of program could run under DOS
>>anymore.
>
>Actually, I daresay that it could so fairly *easily*. It's just that
>you wouldn't get your windowing and the like handed to you. And you'd
>have to actually worry about RAM usage. :-)

Exactly. And who wants those hassles when you can have so many other, more
interesting hassles dealing with windows graphics <g>.

>I started writing something like this on an *8-bit* system, and was
>making progress. But switching to a PC (which *does* have better
>compilers) rather sidetracked me for a few years. Then I started
>*working* with them, and I haven't had the time to start over.  (My
>data files are all that'd really be convertable <sigh>)
>
>(BTW, I started programming in FORTRAN on an IBM 360 back in 72. I got
>my first personal system back in 80. In 81 I was paying $300 for a
>5.25" SSSD drive and considering it a good deal. And paying $30-50 for
>a box of 10 SSSD 5.25 disks... Folks who didn't come up thru the old
>systems don't realize how much *waste* there is in most programs these
>days :-)

Amen.

>>This is kind of what I have in mind ( see my posting about Universal
>>world IDs in this edition ), but I'm not sure how practical getting
>>down below planetary level would be as the graphic storage starts to
>>become a real problem ( you go from boxes and hexes to street maps or
>>land boundaries ).
>
>It's only unworkable if you insist on having that level of detail
>*everywhere*. But there's very little reason to map the Gobi desert
>with any higher resolution than 100s of meters.
>
>But having the system set up so that you can access such levels of
>detail *if available* is another matter. If I have the data, I should
>be able to go all the way from the galaxy map to the interior layout of
>the cantina in Mos Eisley<g> with only a few jumps. (galaxy, 35x35
>sector map, sector, hex, planet, planetary "hex", feature (ie city),
>city "hex", building, interior) Hmm. 10 jumps....

I don't think you get it. In a space map, you're dealing with standard objects (
for example, a hex which may or may not contain a circle [ another standard
graphic object ] representing a world ). These are predefined in the program
code, and the only factors that are data driven are their presence ( or absence
) and possible their colors. In contrast, a bar-room must be drawn by someone
using CAD-like tools ( which I'm definitely not interested in writing ). If
you're talking about simply importing bitmap images created elsewhere into a
database ( and then re-displaying them on cue ) then that may be possible, but
anything else is a result of either wishful thinking, or a complete lack of
understanding of the complexities involved.


>>And get sued by MM for copyright infringment <g>. No thanks. I'll
>>leave that one to MM if the product takes off and he decides to
>>support it. We will have _extensive_ facilities for writing notes
>>about anything you can think of to do with the maps or your campaign
>>or your own Lirbary Data for that matter.
>
>It ain't copyright infringement if I own copies of the material I
>enter, and the result is for personal use.

Fine, but this won't be for _personal_ use. It will be used by many others (
hopefully ) including a number who will hopefully pay for the privilige of using
the extended version with all the bells and whistles. The free version will be a
data reader only. A useful taste, but not the whole thing. And if I get to make
any money from this you can bet that MM, etc will want a slice of it ( and
rightly so ).

>And I daresay that if I got
>it together, Marc would either license it, or we could work out some
>sort of deal.

Perhaps. He has to start answering my email first <g>.

Simon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:43:40 +0100
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GG Refueling
Message-ID: <v02140b00ad5a0c582c00@[193.12.250.151]>

>There have been some interesting posts to the TML about GG refueling.
>If we keep CG around then I think we need to make sure it has a surface
>hit location just like EMMRs.  Since skimming without CG is a pain in
>the ass---not to mention dangerous---then killing the CG might kill the
>ship.
>
>-Merrick

Good idea but what kind of hand waving are we going to use to force one to
put them on the outside? Are there exhausts or cooling vents et c?

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:24:25 +-400
From: Andy Long <andylong@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
To: "'traveller@MPGN.COM'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Traveller Map Display program (everybody now...)
Message-ID: <01BB0623.92E19560@csa041.emirates.net.ae>


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0623.92E19560
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>>>
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz[SMTP:simonm@ramhb.co.nz]
Sent: 26 February 1996 07:23
jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan) wrote :

<Snip stuff about wanting to cross Sector boundaries arbitrarily (which =
I agree with!)>
I've been thinking about this all day. The first stumbling block I came =
up=20
against was the ultimate limits of such a scheme ( ie: where do you draw =
the line ? ). You want to see worlds in subsectors in adjacent sectors, =
but what happens when the next sector isn't in the Imperium anymore (ie: =
It's off the map entirely ) ?=20
<<<<

My approach to this fell straight out of the programming solution to =
drawing the Hex map on the screen. I decided that the unique identifier =
of a system would be it's absolute (X,Y) coordinates on a theoretical =
blank sheet of paper used to draw that map. All coordinates would be =
relative to Reference (0140/Core), so systems in the Spinward Marches, =
for example, have negative coordinates for both X & Y, whilst in the =
Solomani Rim they are all positive.

All sectors would be identified by the (X,Y) coordinates of their =
'TopLeft' hex. They would also hold the valueof their 'BottomRight' Hex, =
in order for the application to decide that a system is actually at =
(say) 0101/Reft Sector, rather than 3341/Spinward Marches. This also =
allows Sub-Sectors to be handled in an identical fashion, only with =
their 'BottomRight's being offset by a smaller amount from their =
'TopLeft's than with Sectors.

The actual coordinates are generated by the following Access Basic =
procedures. I thought the best way to enable arbitrary sector border =
crossing would be to have my application act as an interface to an =
Access database.

Function Hex_Centre_X(
ByVal X As Integer,
ByVal Y As Integer,
ByVal Base_X As Single,
ByVal Base_Y As Single) As Single
    Hex_Centre_X =3D Base_X + (2 * (X - 1))
End Function

Function Hex_Centre_Y(
ByVal X As Integer,
ByVal Y As Integer,
ByVal Base_X As Single,
ByVal Base_Y As Single) As Single
    Hex_Centre_Y =3D Base_Y + (2 * (Y - 1)) + (1 - (X Mod 2))
End Function

The following two procedures reverse the procedure, turning the ID =
coordinates back into a hex id, given the identifying (X,Y) coordinates =
of the sector.

Function Hex_Number_X(
ByVal X As Single,
ByVal Y As Single,
ByVal Base_X As Single,
ByVal Base_Y As Single) As Integer
    Hex_Number_X =3D Int((X - Base_X) / 2) + 1
End Function

Function Hex_Number_Y(
ByVal X As Single,
ByVal Y As Single,
ByVal Base_X As Single,
ByVal Base_Y As Single) As Integer
    Hex_Number_Y =3D
Int(Y - Base_Y - (1 - (Hex_Number_X(X, Y, Base_X, Base_Y) Mod 2))) / 2 =
+ 1
End Function

>From the above algorithm, the Y coordinates of systems increases down =
the hex columns by 2 for every hex. The Y coordinates of the =
horizontally adjacent hexes are +/- 1 from that one. The X coordinates =
simply increase by 2 for every column. Thus 0101/Core has coordinates of =
(0,-78), and 0201/Core is (2,-77).

'TopLeft' values for any given sector can be generated by taking a =
similar (X,Y) scheme, multiplying X by 80, Y by 64, and adding to the =
value just derived for 0101/Core. This gives a value of (-256,-158) for =
Zeycude (0101/Spinward Marches).

Allowing use of negative coordinates simplifies the question of an =
'expanding' universe, as all numbers can grow out to infity in each =
direction (or at least, to the accuracy of the numbers we're playing =
with). Since all this is just internal bookkeeping for the program, =
there's no need for the players to have to worry about it. The user adds =
a new sector to core/spinward of Spinward Marches (I know there's =
already one there, this is just a f'rinstance), and the program says =
'OK, this new sector is (-336, -222).'

If you're wondering why this wonderful program hasn't hit the streets =
yet, it's because I was working in VB 3.0, and when I tried to paint a =
full Sector, the program just blew up because it couldn't handle so many =
windows at once. VB treats every user object as a 'Window', so my =
brainwave fizzled out there. Now I've got W95 and VC++, I may attack the =
problem again.

Anyway, just in case it helps.....

Andy
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AAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMOAUZOz8BbsBQAAIMOAUZOz8BbsBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAACTZw==

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0623.92E19560--


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 17:34:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T612] Taxation
Message-ID: <8BBA41E.010006C876.uuout@execnet.com>


T::>I have always wondered how the Imperial tax system works. Obviously the
 ::>amount of CR in taxes is enormous as they can afford the Imperial palace,
 ::>Tigresses et c. I figure that the subsector Duke keep a census of all
 ::>systems populations and demand payment based on the population. There has
 ::>to be different tax rates at different TLs, otherwise low tech world will
 ::>bleed to death and high tech ones will pay to little. If taxrate is TL
 ::>based however may lead to bribes towards the IISS to set the TL of a system
 ::>lower than it actually is (is this the real reason there are so many low TL
 ::>systems?).
 ::>The tax could be on trade instead giving the Imperium a very practical
 ::>reason why stopping the flow of trade is the worst crime of all.

 Here is where the Feudal system comes in handy.  If we look at
 Terran Medieval Period methods of handling taxation in societies
 with a feudal system of government, we see that the Royal Treasury
 (rather, The King) assessed a tax only on those individuals in
 direct fealty to him.  These individuals were almost invariably
 enfeoffed nobility, holding their fiefs on condition that they
 meet certain obligations - primarily those of taxation (in cash or
 kind) and muster (when the king goes to war, you provide thus-and-
 so-many men, horses, suits of armor, swords, etc.).  How those
 nobles raised the required remittance was their business.
 Usually, they subenfeoffed lesser nobles and knights, who were
 held in fealty to them (and only indirectly to the King), under
 the same conditions; at the bottom of the heap were peasants who
 were \de facto\, and sometimes \de jure\ the property of the noble
 or knight whose land they worked.  Freemen (the middle class;
 merchants and tradesmen, for the most part) generally remitted a
 profits tax or paid guild and license fees to be permitted to
 operate.  An appropriate percentage of those remittances also
 found their way into the royal treasury.

 In the Traveller context, where nobility is still emplaced, a
 similar system can be postulated, but with more up-to-date forms
 of record-keeping, auditing, and so on - think of Your Favorite
 Tax Collection Agency writ large for the bureaucracy and
 collection methods.  Couple that with Imperial assessments
 directly on the Archdukes and Sector Dukes, and possibly the
 subsector dukes as well, and let them deal with revenue generation
 as they see fit, subject to any relevant Imperial law.

 Thus, under my scenario, it is likely that the citizens of Glisten
 do not pay taxes directly to the Imperium; rather, their taxes are
 remitted perhaps directly to the Subsector Duke of Glisten, who
 remitted the taxes from his 50 or so planets to the Delphine of
 Mora (who was also the Duchess of the Spinward Marches), or, at
 the time of the Rebellion, to Norris, the Archduke of Deneb.  The
 Delphine or Norris would then remit to the Imperium.

 Of course, much of this would be simply recorded in electronic
 form as balances of interstellar credit, with bullion or other
 valuta changing hands only to redress a severe and chronic
 imbalance.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 614
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 615

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) New EMAIL by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 613 by Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
  3) Marc Miller : Progress Report??? by Paragon369@aol.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:37:03 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: New EMAIL
Message-ID: <199602282337.RAA21496@osh1.datasync.com>

I have just opened a new PPP account.

My new address is:

tiger@datasync.com

Thanks

Paul  {tiger}

"54-40 or Fight!" - TBWSK


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:45:58 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 613
Message-ID: <9602290245.AA02153@ lrmi.com>


simonm@ramhb.co.nz (Simon) has written several times discussing an ambitious
and intersting traveller map viewer project;  here's my two Arcturian
dollars worth:

Please consider storing the data in an "open" database format (I hesitate to
suggest MS .mdb, but they have been flogging the tools in a couple of
development environments of late, and it seems to be adequate with resonable
ammounts of data).  This would:

1. Allow easy extension by customers.  For example, it would be childs play
to add reporting using standard report writers.  If I want a list of Tech
level 7 oligarchies with class A spaceports and a gas giant,  I don't have
to go whining in your email box for it.

2. Make it easy to put generators in front of your system by diectly filling
the table.

I can think of other ways a relational back-end database could be used to
provide effective customization by the user without violating the integrity
of your system.  If you are using an OO design, do not believe the people
who tell you that relational databases and objects don't mix.

Just a thought based on how I would do it, anyway.

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:28:31 -0500
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Marc Miller : Progress Report???
Message-ID: <960228182830_233674441@mail06.mail.aol.com>

Does anyone know.... or has anyone heard....  what kind of progress is MM
making on the new Traveller incarnation(s)????   I for one am very anxious to
see what the newest and greatest are gonna be!

Paragon369  a.k.a.  Russell



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 615
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 616

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) New RC Corporation by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  2) Re: Marc Miller : Progress Report??? by Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
  3) Re: GG Refueling by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  4) Thrust vs weight ratio by StarWolf <myhre@sn.no>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 18:15:06 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: New RC Corporation
Message-ID: <199603010015.SAA17285@osh1.datasync.com>

Someone said that Transstar needed some competition, well here it is.

Hope this helps some of you.

I'm going to work on getting a Website dedicated to the Reformation
Coalition.  I hope to include any Public Domain items that anyone has come
up with for the RC.  I have heard rumors of RICE style papers on some of the
worlds.  If anyone has some, let me know, and I'll include them.  Also,
anyone that has a Traveller website, let me know what it is, and I'll
include a like to you.

More on the RC site later.  Now...

Dushgin & Delgado Corporation

Dushgin Starship was a small independent starship manufacturing yard
located in the Vras System (Old Expanses 0739 A78A773-F).  Dushgin Starship
was a privately owned small company that encountered cash flow problems
during the starship boom of 1087.  Ling Standard Products purchased the yard
and retained the existing management and Dushgin became a major producer of
starships in the Old Expanses Sector.  Dushgin specialized in small craft
and starships (under 500 displacement tons) with its specialty being 100-ton
craft and smaller.  Compared to many of her sister yards (including the
larger Nicosia Yards located in the Nicosia system), Dushgin was a small
operation.  Most of the other Ling Shipyards can build anything from 100 to
10,000 displacement tons.  As Dushgin's orders increased, the management
utilized Ling's capital to pre-order many of the components required to
construct the smaller spacecraft that had become Dushgin's bread and butter.
At the same time, Dushgin purchased a small moon orbiting the gas giant in
the Vras system.  All of the components were housed in the warehouse
facility located on the moon, called Dushgin's moon.  In addition to the
orbital shipyards, Dushgin constructed a surface construction sight in Vras'
southern ocean to construct many of the spacecraft that it had backordered.
During the Final War, Dushgin received a contract to design and build
sixteen 400-ton SDB's for Vras.  Most of the materials were pre-purchased
and stored in the warehouse on Dushgin's moon.  By 1130, five of the sixteen
had been completed and three others were under construction.

In late 1130 when Virus reached Vras and infected the five SDB's, two of
the five destroyed themselves and the orbital facility.  The other three
destroyed parts of Dushgin's moon warehouse by crashing.  The surface
facility fared much better.  Its computer was down for minor repairs and the
plant was unmanned when Virus arrived, so all the systems were untouched
when Virus invaded the planet's network.  The destruction of the planet's
power grid; however, severely limited Dushgin's production capability.

After Virus wiped itself out and the main cleanup/rescue operations were
complete, Dushgir resumed the production of the 30-ton cargo tender it had
been working on at the surface facility.  Production was severely slowed
because the only power source available was the tenders power plant.

It wasn't until early 1132 that  the 30-ton cargo tender was finished.  The
tender was sent to Dushgin's moon to salvage what was left of the materials
there.  When the tender arrived at the moon, it discovered that there was
much less damage than originally anticipated.  Three J-1 Free Trader type
ships were intact, left on planet awaiting final payment before delivery.
Two J-1 Scout/Courier type ships (property of Delgado Trading, LIC, docked
pending repainting and minor repairs) were found intact.  The Jump drive
parts warehouse had been destroyed, as had the main office building and
parts of the electronics and maneuver parts warehouses as well.  The J-1
ships were taken to the planet as were many of the parts and a few in-system
cargo tenders.  Dushgin lent the three J-1 ships to the Vras branch of
Delgado Trading, LIC to add to the two they had repaired to help maintain a
loose network of trade with Fuetz, and later (in 1139) with Schall.  Much of
the limited ability of the surface facility were committed to maintaining
the small fleet of J-1 boats.

By 1143, the management of both Dushgin Starship and Delgado Trading began
negotiations to merge the two companies, believing that they were all that
was left of their respective megacorporations.  After many problems in the
negotiations, an agreement was finally reached in 1145.  Under the
provisions, Dushgin & Delgado Corp was born.  Dushgin & Delgado busied
itself with trade(interstellar/insystem/surface), maintenance of the fleet,
and production of surface cargo transports.

By 1169 Dushgin & Delgado controlled much of the surface merchant traffic
on Vras and all of the Interstellar trade.   Vras was creeping back towards
a prestellar technology level.  Dushgin & Delgado had trade with TED's on
both Fuetz and Schall and operated a slight amount surface merchant traffic
on both of those worlds.

As repair parts dwindled, Dushgin & Delgado lost the use of its two J-1
Scout/Couriers:  the management was not willing to risk the crew without the
ability to verify the safety of the J-Drives.   These ships were added to
the in-system fleet that serviced the three remaining J-1 vessels.

In 1189, Plans were drawn up to redesign Dushgin's moon into a complete
starship yard.  The shipyard would build 50-200 ton ships, specializing in
Traders and Couriers.

In late 1190, Dushgin & Delgado experienced another setback, one of the
three remaining Free Traders misjumped.  The crew was thrown many parsecs
away and were it not for the skill of the engineer and astrogator, the ship
& crew would have been lost.  The crew was able to install a J-2 drive into
the ship, and, by removing some of the cargo to make room for fuel, the crew
and ship returned safely (for details, see upcoming adventure, MisJump).
When the crew finally made it back to Vras in early 1191, they were given a
hero's welcome and given the rest of the year off with pay.  Dushgin &
Delgado Corp, however, wasted no time using this new Drive to make a profit.
Trade was soon established with Vezinan TEDs, and Dushgin & Delgado Corp
established a small amount of surface trade on Vezina.

Later in 1191, when the Hivers first arrived in the Vras system, they were
met by the Dushgin & Delgado Corp donated(lent) in system Navy.  Dushgin &
Delgado Officials were in on the initial discussions with the Hiver, and
sent many upcoming young students and employees to the Hiver tech schools in
1192.  Dushgin & Delgado officials were instrumental in developing the
trading missions  sent out by the Dawn League, and even provided crewmembers
for some of the ships at their own expense.

By 1202, Dushgin & Delgado runs the premier spacecraft facility on Aubaine;
at the surface facility they design and build spacecraft, 10 to 100 tons,
for civilians and governments.  The facility for building 100 to 200 ton
starships on Dushgin's moon was completed in late 1194 and launched it's
first starships (100 ton J-2 couriers for the RC Mail Service) in mid 1199.
Dushgin & Delgado also runs a number of smaller facilities designed to build
10 to 50 ton surface transports.

Dushgin & Delgado has many family ties to the Aubaine, Schall, Phoebus, and
Vezina Councilmembers, and many of the Councilmembers hold seats on the
parchment board (see below) of Dushgin & Delgado.  The company's involvement
with the respective world governments existed even before the Hiver
reconnected humans, so it was only natural that Dushgin & Delgado have a
part in the formation of interstellar government.

Corporate Strategy:
Dushgin & Delgado is an extremely enthusiastic expansionist company.  Most
of the company's policies are designed to make it easy for Dushgin & Delgado
to enter new markets and broaden its base of income.  Dushgin & Delgado
wants to be the cornerstone of  the RC expansion to take back the stars.
Dushgin & Delgado doesn't approve of any illegal activities by Board member
or corporate official, and any Board member or corporate official involved
in illegal activities will be openly reprimanded and expelled.  However, if
an activity will make a profit and not endanger the life of employees,
Dushgin & Delgado will look the other way while an employee does the dirty
work.  There are three things to remember about this profit making:

1.  If it will endanger the lives of Dushgin & Delgado employees not
directly involved, IT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.  If RC citizens are at risk, it
better be a healthy profit.  (This means dangerous, harmful drugs
("Anagathics and Osi-drugs aren't dangerous, they're beneficial") and
illegal weapons supplying are taboo, although the company does have a secret
weapons supply to the rebels on Spencer and Oraflamme, but that activity is
politically motivated.)
2.  If the employee(s) involved is caught, Dushgin & Delgado Corp will
respond as strongly against his actions as when an official or board member
engages in the activity.
3.  With Dushgin & Delgado having so many ties to the RC government
structure, this is rarely a problem.  There are very few illegal activities
that meet the criteria of #1 above.

Dushgin & Delgado looks at its employees and profit in similar ways.  "They
are the reason we are in business."
Employees:
1.  Without happy employees, you can't be productive.  Without
productivity, you cannot make a profit.
2.  An employee that is being treated fairly will be a happy productive
employee.
(Note:  This is somewhat contradictory to  the way employees are treated if
they are involved in illegal activities.)
Profit:
1.  Without profit a business cannot exist
2. Without profit, there is no reason to exist.

Dushgin & Delgado is a strong proponent of the Federalist movement.  "When
rulers hoard the technology, they are hampering trade and trade provides
profit."

Corporate Structure:
Dushgin & Delgado Corp is run by a board of twenty-five directors.  Each
director gets one vote in matters of corporate policies.  Five of the
positions (the Ruling Five) are lifetime and are held currently by members
of the families that ran Dushgin & Delgado.  When any one of these members
dies, the other four choose his successor preferably from the family, but if
no suitable family member is available, an outsider may be brought in.  To
date, no outsiders have been brought in.  The remaining members (Council of
Twenty) of the board serve five year terms and must be re-elected each five
years.  They are re-elected (4 per year) by the rest of the board with the
Ruling Five having one vote each and all other members not up for
re-election having 1/8 vote each.  If a member of the Council of Twenty dies
before his term is up, another member is elected for a shortened term using
the method described above.

In addition to the board of directors, Dushgin & Delgado also has a board of
advisors comprised of government and civilian leaders, as well as leaders of
other corporations (no competitors and usually people Dushgin & Delgado
wants to influence).  The board of advisors, also known as the Parchment
Board, gets no vote in corporate policies.  The board of directors, however,
respects the advise they get from the Parchment Board (they don't
necessarily follow it, but they respect it).  The members of this board are
not paid directly; however, in addition to the annual meetings of this
board, Dushgin & Delgado pays for each of the members to go on a one week
vacation together with the board of directors.  Members of this board are
chosen each year at the first board of directors meeting.  Inclusion to this
board has been limited to 100 members, but has on occasion been stretched
overthe limit.  The vacation this board attends is seen as a status symbol
on many RC worlds.

The day to day operations of the company are run by the president and
vice-presidents.  An organizational chart is available upon request.

While the stockholderd (or their heirs) are still listed as the company's
owners, the board of directors has all the rights associated with ownership.
Practically speaking, The Ruling Five are the owners of Dusgin & Delgado.

Competition:
Dushgin & Delgado Shipbuilding (55%):
Dushgin & Delgado Shipbuilding has little in the way of competition.  Most
of the other shipyards are so backlogged building larger ships for the
Government that Dushgin & Delgado has carved itself a nice little niche in
the Spacecraft and small starship market.  The small companies that are in
direct competition with Dushgin & Delgado are usually not large enough to be
much competition and usually handle the backlog from Dushgin & Delgado.
When a small shipyard does begin to threaten Dushgin & Delgado, they are
usually driven out of business by Dushgin & Delgado's aggressive price
slashing.  Dushgin & Delgado then gobbles up the facility, hires the
employees back and resumes operations.  When the RC discontinues building
larger ships with such furvor, Dushgin & Delgado expect the competition to
increase, but they hope to have a solid niche carved into the market by then.

Dushgin & Delgado Trading(40%):
Dushgin & Delgado Trading has carved itself a niche as the prime mail
carrier for the RC.  There are very few other trading companies that provide
any direct competition to Dushgin & Delgado.  Transstar is the only company
with enough power to compete with Dushgin & Delgado; however,in the booming
economy of the Reformation Coalition, both companies have more than enough
business to keep them both busy.  Corporate rivalry exists more on a
political level than a competitive level; however, the competitive rivalry
is growing though.  Most of the other competition to Dushgin & Delgado comes
from the Free Traders that make the RC a regular port of call.  The quantity
of these traders is so small, that Dushgin & Delgado actually makes money on
their visits to most worlds.  The goods delivered by the traders are
offloaded at the starport and moved by Dushgin & Delgado surface transports.
Dushgin & Delgado has a marginal surface fleet/insystem fleet on most of the
worlds of the RC and these transfers of materials from free traders at the
starport to its final destination is highly profitable for Dushgin &
Delgado.  By the same token, the surface and insystem transfers that other
companies handle are usually transfers of Dushgin & Delgado shipped goods.
Either way Dushgin & Delgado makes money on most everything shipped in the
RC whether interstellar or insystem or surface.  (Note:  Dushgin & Delgado
rents large garages at most planets auction facilities and most of the items
bought at auction are moved by Dushgin & Delgado transports).

Diversification(5%):
Dushgin & Delgado has begun to diversify into other industries.  Primarily,
Dushgin & Delgado is moving into banking, entertainment, and
pharmaceuticals.  Dushgin & Delgado's interests are small, but growth in
each industry is steady.

Adventure Hooks:

See Transstar

Also:
Stolen Merchandise:  The PCs are hired to be guards for a valuable shipment
and while they are guarding the merchandise, it is stolen.  The PCs are
threatened with breach of contract (or something similar) if they do not
recover the merchandise.

Rebel:  The PCs either stumble onto or are introduced to Dushgin & Delgado's
secret supply line to the rebels on Spencer and Oraflamme.  They may be
hired to help, or they may have already been hired to uncover the supply
line.  When they inform their superiors (if they inform) they will have
trouble getting action done because of the relationship between the RC
government and the Dushgin & Delgado leaders.   (Note: The more vehemently
the PCs fight Dushgin & Delgado, the more vehemently Dushgin & Delgado will
fight to silence the players.  D&D will not lose this one.)



Paul  {tiger}
http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

"54-40 or Fight!" - TBWSK


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 01:21:34 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Marc Miller : Progress Report???
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960301011348.7481A-100000@pasta>

On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 traveller@mpgn.com wrote:
>
> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:28:31 -0500
> From: Paragon369@aol.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Marc Miller : Progress Report???
> Message-ID: <960228182830_233674441@mail06.mail.aol.com>
>
> Does anyone know.... or has anyone heard....  what kind of progress is MM
> making on the new Traveller incarnation(s)????   I for one am very anxious to
> see what the newest and greatest are gonna be!
>
> Paragon369  a.k.a.  Russell

Russell,

I wrote to Marc mid February. The reason that we havent heard much from
him is because
(a). He doesnt log into his account often.
(b). He is still finalizing plans for the re-release for Traveller.
     (Folks, AFAIK the re-release is going to be called.... Traveller!).
     This wont be done until mid-march.

Basically he knows this list exists. We'll hear from him when he's
good and ready! :-)

And for those who still dont have his address its:

FarFuture@aol.com (if my memory serves me rightly)

Hope that helps,

Mark

  ---------------------------------------------------------------
   "Courtesy is an obligation; friendship   | Mark Fletcher.
    a gift." Loosely quoted Vilani proverb. | (mf1@st-and.ac.uk)


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:44:30 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GG Refueling
Message-ID: <9602281644.AA28767@Rt66.com>

> Good idea but what kind of hand waving are we going to use to force one to
> put them on the outside? Are there exhausts or cooling vents et c?
>
> /Backman

They are considered on the outside alreay.  You must reserve the suface
locations for them, but they don't take hits there for some reason.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 18:37:16 -0800
From: StarWolf <myhre@sn.no>
To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Thrust vs weight ratio
Message-ID: <313662DC.66FA@sn.no>

HI I'm back. There has been a long time since I last posted something
here. Anyway here we go...

I have made a spreadsheet for excel do design spacecraft and starships. I
have decided to go for rating the acceleration in thrust vs weight rather
than fixed size drive for a fixed size hull.

The problem that arises is that there may be a large difference in the
weight of a loaded ship versus an empty ship. Thus the fuel consume
changes accordingly. What I feel is the best solution is to take the
thrust and dividing it on the average weight of the craft. What do you
think?


--
------------+-----------------+--------------------------------------
Roger Myhre |myhre@sn.no      |http://www.sn.no/~myhre/
Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins"
are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 616
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 617

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Testing... by "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@MPGN.COM>
  2) Mailer problems by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:09:38 -0500 (EST)
From: "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Testing...
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960306140906.27247A-100000@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>

Testing to see if the Traveller mailing list is active again.

-- Dave

--
David E. Brooks Jr / dbj@MPGN.COM | GCS/O d? H+(-) s:+ g+ a w++(--) v
Tantalus Incorporated             | C++ UU++++$ UO P+>+++ L+ E N+ W+>+++
Key West, FL                      | M- V- po Y+ t+(++) !5 !j R+(++)>+++ G'
+1 305 293 8100 x15               | tv- b+>++ D B- e u+ h--- f+ r+++ n y?


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:10:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Mailer problems
Message-ID: <199603061910.OAA27413@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>

This is to see if the mailer problems have been solved.

Sorry for the downtime and these test messages.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@mpgn.com)   | GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
Contrary to popular belief,  | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
I don't know what I'm doing. | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 617
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 618

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 617 by Paragon369@aol.com
  2) Re: Marc Miller : Progress Report??? by Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
  3) Re: Marc Miller : Progress Report??? by Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
  4) Traveller discussion on AOL by 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
  5) World tamers Handbook by aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
  6) Re: Traveller discussion on AOL by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  7) Traveller Products: Imperium by Kerry Harrison <kerry@io.com>
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 617 by t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
  9) Water Worlds by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
 10) Re: World tamers Handbook by farrarb@vnet.net (Bill Farrar)
 11) Adventure:A ghost from the past (Part 2/2) by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:04:28 -0500
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 617
Message-ID: <960306170426_239241503@mail06.mail.aol.com>

Glad to see you're back up again!  I've missed my Traveller fix!!!
<grining at the flame..>

Russ


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:34:08 +0000
From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Marc Miller : Progress Report???
Message-ID: <m0tuRqo-0001MpC@kiel.netsurf.de>

This seems to be his standard response to emails he sent out February 29.

                        ----------cut---------

Progress Report

I want to begin by expressing my appreciation to (more people than I can
count) who has responded to my several posts asking for input about Traveller
in this time of change for the system. The emails and posts I have received
offering support, constructive criticism, and general advice have been
extremely helpful to me in coming to decisions about what I am going to do
with Traveller and how I am going to set about doing it.

Now, I know that I will not be able to please every single one of you out
there, so after considerable thought, I have come to the obvious conclusion
that I should please myself and believe that in doing so I will also please
those who like and appreciate the game system which I created.

Under to terms of various agreements between myself and GDW, I have always
held all rights to the games and intellectual properties which I created.
Game Designers' Workshop has decided to close its doors, and as it closes
down, the company has formally transferred to me all rights to the Traveller
game system (including Traveller, MegaTraveller, and Traveller The New Era).
Included in that transfer are the licenses and contracts between GDW and
various licensees. That transfer took place yesterday (February 29, 1996). So
that part is official.

I had thought that I would have the additional details completed by
yesterday, and that I would have a formal announcement to make about who will
be publishing Traveller by today, but I do not. Too many people have been
interested in participating (with more coming out of the woodwork at the last
minute) for the various agreements to be negotiated and signed. You may see
rumors about what is going on (and many of them will probably be true), but
it is bad form to announce things before the papers are signed, so I need to
wait a little while longer.

Marc Miller

                        ----------cut---------

bye
--
Stefan Matthias Aust  //  ...come on, kiss the frog!
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/sma/


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:05:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Marc Miller : Progress Report???
Message-ID: <01I20TNGQX3Y8WY6OM@POMONA.EDU>

     Thanks to Stefan Matthias Aust for forwarding this.

Trent Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:33:02 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: XBOAT@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller discussion on AOL
Message-ID: <199603070533.AAA10607@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

 I thought I would post some notes I took from the discussion about
Traveller that just took place on AOL. Marc Miller was supposed to be there,
but he had to
tend to an emergency, so someone from Imperium Game whose first name is Ken
took his place. I got so excited about some of the things he said I forgot
to write down his name!!!
  Traveller is slated to make it's triumphant return in August of 1996, just
in time for GenCon! Far Future Enterprises owns the rights to Traveller
itself; Imperium Games has the paper publishing rights.
   The system is, as has been stated, a return to Classic Traveller at it's
base, but with numerous improvements and enhancements. They'll be adding to
character generation, adding skills, and a whole new look.
   Lester Smith (of 2300 AD fame) will be Traveller Developer.
   Larry Elmore will be doing the black-and-white interior artwork.
   Greg Porter (of BTRC and GUNS, GUNS, GUNS fame) will be developer of
equipment.
   Don Perrin (from MagForce 7) will be in charge of developing spacecraft.
   Tim Brown (of long-ago GDW fame) will be the main developer of Aliens.
   Jean Rabe (formerly of RPGA) will be the editor of the new Journal of the
Traveller's Aid Society, starting from where the GDW numbering of JTAS (not
Challenge) left off.
   More system stuff: no dying during creation. More skills will be offered,
as well as chances to develop your personal background.
   Everything can be rolled OR chosen. More control over character creation.
   The task system from MT will be used.
   Background packages allow more skills at start, even if you're a kid!
   Format for all books will be 8.5" by 11"
   The name of the system: TRAVELLER.
   The new game's initial setting: year Zero!! And looking up the old data
won't help you-GM's will now be coming up with their own stuff!
   There will be a Collector Card Game AND a Comic series!!
   There will be a FF&S-like supplement; Greg Porter is in charge of that.
   A ship combat boardgame is slated for August '97.
   They plan on releasing two products a month for a year. One will be a
rules addenda, the other a background add-on.
   The plan is to have a book by Don Perrin and Margaret Weis in a year or two.
   They will be returning to the Virus Era in about 3 years, maybe sooner.
   There was a HINT of something involving TV or movies!!
   The first 14 supplements have been planned; that information is
forthcoming to the TML as soon as I or someone else gets ahold of it.
   DGP has appently accquired rights to the SEEKER and old FASA materials,
and is planning on releasing it on CD-ROM.
   There will be a new Traveller boardgame in the Imperium tradition in
August of 1997.

   All of this stuff is straight from Imperium Games. I'm excited about a
lot of this. I hope you are too.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:03:43 -0700
From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: World tamers Handbook
Message-ID: <199603070603.XAA18233@scratchy.itsnet.com>

I am thinking of getting one more book for my GURPS Traveller game, the
world tamers handbook.

could someone who has the book please give me a breif rundown on its
contents and its good and bad points as the only way I have to get a look at
one is to order it.



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:05:01 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Traveller discussion on AOL
Message-ID: <9603070605.AA28190@Rt66.com>

>    The new game's initial setting: year Zero!! And looking up the old data
> won't help you-GM's will now be coming up with their own stuff!

I'm not sure I get what you're saying... you imply (I think) that
they're still using the framework of the Imperium, et al (ie:  the
timeline and canon), but this bit confuses me a little.

Do you have an more info?

>    They will be returning to the Virus Era in about 3 years, maybe sooner.

See what I mean? :-)

>    The first 14 supplements have been planned; that information is
> forthcoming to the TML as soon as I or someone else gets ahold of it.

Neat-o!

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:54:25 -0600
From: Kerry Harrison <kerry@io.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller Products: Imperium
Message-ID: <313E7A11.3149@io.com>

[from the AOL Game Design forum, reposted with permission of author]

Imperium Games, Inc. presents
Marc Miller's  Traveller

Since its original publication in 1977, Traveller has been the
pre-eminent science-fiction role-playing game, providing ways to play in
role-playing, board games, miniatures, and computers. After 23 years,
GDW (the original publisher of Traveller) has closed its doors and the
Traveller game system has reverted to its originator and designer. The
vision Marc Miller has for Traveller is three fold; a comprehensive
rules system, continually expanding background and history, and a wide
variety of products in print, electronic, and other media.

Imperium Games occupies the central position in this plan and is
responsible for producing, under the direction of Marc Miller, the
foundation for the system. Here are some of the titles under
consideration.

TRAVELLER
The Traveller game system rules will be consolidated and restated based
on the original and classic Traveller rules (revised in light of 20
years of role-playing experience). This foundation for every Traveller
player and referee will include a task system and an emphasis on
reasoned simplicity for players and progressive layers of complexity for
referees. Marc Miller.

STARSHIPS
Turn to this reference for detailed information about the starships of
the Traveller universe: statistics, ship names, anecdotal information,
illustrations, deck plans. Don Perrin.

CENTRAL SUPPLY CATALOG
The original Traveller game has never had a complete listing of
equipment.  By compiling equipment listed in all published books , and
adding to that with original material, we are creating the basic
reference for equipment every player character needs. Greg Porter.

ALIENS ARCHIVES
Traveller has produced volumes of information on the universes many
alien races, however, we plan to include several more minor races.  By
compiling old materials, as well as adding a alien race generation
system, players can integrate alien races into their travels and
adventures. Tim Brown.

MILIEU 0: The Third Imperium
The essential background for adventuring in Traveller is provided in a
number of Milieu books, each detailing an era in the long history of
mankind in space. Milieu 0 chronicles the emergence of the Third
Imperium from the Long Night, extending its reach to re-explore and
re-conquer the vast interstellar territories that have been untouched
for 1700 years. Covers the early years of the Third Imperium, its
history, structure, economics, and library data. Also includes many
adventure hooks and adds direction to players and Referees. Marc Miller.

Other Milieu Books will include (among others): The Aslan Border Wars,
The Vargr Wars, The Barracks Emperors, The Rule of Man, Ziru Sirkaa, The
Solomani Rim War, The Zhodani Core Expeditions, and The Interstellar
Wars.

FIRST SURVEY
This vital companion to Milieu 0 is an atlas of the 50 or so sectors
that were the Vilani Empire and its surrounding territories. The star
systems of the Sylean Federation are well defined. Farther and farther
out, systems are less well-defined. Each adventuring group determines
its own survey results for each system they visit. Lester Smith.

Third Imperium Weapons
Players and Referees will be thrilled to buy this complete book of
Imperium weapons. Weapons include melee, small arms, heavy weapons and
artillery. This guide will include graphic detail and history behind the
weapons use in the Imperium. Greg Porter.

Adventure Class Ships
Now it is time to add some detail to the players lives with this
complete book of Adventure Class ships.  Not only will this book supply
a player with new 100+ ton ships, it allows them to design their own
ships, just the way they want them. Don Perrin.

Anomalies
The records of the past don't mesh with what should be out there. This
is the first EPIC adventure designed specifically for the Referee in
mind. Marc Miller.

Pocket Empires
When Cleon established the Third Imperium, he never expected he would
have competition from his own scouts, merchants, and naval officers.
Thousands of adventurers tried to conquer worlds and establish their own
empires in the vast, uncharted territories not yet under Imperial rule.
Strategic level rules for establishing Pocket Empires. Marc Miller.

Handbook of the Psionic Institutes
When the Psionic Institutes began studying this abstract science, they
just didn't know what a bag of worms they opened. Are they a bunch of
crackpots, or is there something there? Ken Whitman.

Small Craft
If Adventure ships just wasn't enough, then you may want to explore the
world of small craft.  Not only will this book supply a player with new
ships less then 100 tons, it allows them to design their own ships,
including fighters. Don Perrin.

MILIEU 200: Aslan Border Wars
The Aslan Border Wars went on for thousands of years. This book details
the wars and the territories they were fought over. Includes major
coverage of the Aslan and how to play them. Lester Smith & Tim Brown.

TRAVELLER: Strategic Battles
Warfare is still the ultimate system for resolving disputes between the
stars. This board game, based on Fifth Frontier War, provides the
mechanism for fighting battles large and small anywhere within the
Traveller universe. Recreates historical battles and allows generation
and resolution of new ones. Meshes with Pocket Empires. Marc Miller.

For additional information, to be added to our mailing list, or to tell
us what you would like to see in our future products, contact Imperium
Games at:

E-mail: ImperGame@aol.com
P.O. Box 481, Lake Geneva, WI 53147

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:10:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 617
Message-ID: <S9603071210.AA17588@sysc.abdn.ac.uk>

>
>     TRAVELLER Digest 617
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
>   1) Testing...
> by "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@MPGN.COM>
>   2) Mailer problems
> by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:09:38 -0500 (EST)
> From: "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@MPGN.COM>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Testing...
> Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960306140906.27247A-100000@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.
COM>
>
> Testing to see if the Traveller mailing list is active again.
>
> -- Dave
>
> --
> David E. Brooks Jr / dbj@MPGN.COM | GCS/O d? H+(-) s:+ g+ a w++(--) v
> Tantalus Incorporated             | C++ UU++++$ UO P+>+++ L+ E N+ W+>+++
> Key West, FL                      | M- V- po Y+ t+(++) !5 !j R+(++)>+++ G'
> +1 305 293 8100 x15               | tv- b+>++ D B- e u+ h--- f+ r+++ n y?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:10:53 -0500 (EST)
> From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Mailer problems
> Message-ID: <199603061910.OAA27413@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>
>
> This is to see if the mailer problems have been solved.
>
> Sorry for the downtime and these test messages.
>
> Rob
> --
> Rob Miracle (rwm@mpgn.com)   | GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v 
C++>++++
> Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
> Contrary to popular belief,  | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
> I don't know what I'm doing. | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TRAVELLER Digest 617
> ***************************
>

Yes
I am receiving it :)


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 07:48:51 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Water Worlds
Message-ID: <199603071348.HAA11009@osh1.datasync.com>


I've been looking through World Tamers Handbook, and I was wondering if
anyone had any ideas on how to develop agriculture and raw material
statistics for water hexes(like in the Survey chapter).  Also, how do water
communities(like the ones on Aubaine) fit into the economic model.  There
doesn't seem to be any info on either developing water based facilities or
on modifying land hexes to get water values.

If anyone has any ideas on this please let me know.

Also on several of the RICE papers, I noticed that the weather is
controlled.  Has anyone come up with info on Weather control.  What tech
level is it available at and how does it advance with tech level?

Thanks for any help.


Paul  {tiger}

"So I hit him!" - TBWSK


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 18:45:34 GMT
From: farrarb@vnet.net (Bill Farrar)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: World tamers Handbook
Message-ID: <313f2ddc.1880821@email2.vnet.net>

On Thu, 7 Mar 1996 01:03:26 -0500, you wrote:

>I am thinking of getting one more book for my GURPS Traveller game, the
>world tamers handbook.
The world tamers hanbook....I love it!  It get me a complete picture
of everything from the star->system details to specific details abou
the world.  There is a section about each of the major parts of the
world: size, hydrosphere, etc etc down to pop, and tech


In general it's a good resource, I think that it can even be used
standalone (the only question I have about that is if the technology
levels, and travellers' universal world profile are all detailied in
the book (I think they are:)

One warning tho': It involves a great deal of rolling...i have spent a
coupl of hours doing a detailed system...but I thought it was worth
it.

bill


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:46:44 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Adventure:A ghost from the past (Part 2/2)
Message-ID: <175@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

/continued
Bridge. The bridge is the area of the ship which shows the greatest damage. The
superdense shutters which slide over the front window during reentry and combat
have been left open, leaving the windows unprotected. The left panel has
cracked open, and a considerable quantity of earth and debris has fallen into
the bridge compartment. The control panel is half covered by soil and rock,
clearing it will take several hours. The small bridge would probably feel
claustrophobic even when cleared out, but at the moment there is barely room
for more than two people to fit.

While the players are exploring the ship, the A(P)-11 will observe them, unsure
at first as to whether they are crew members or enemies. It will take about
twenty minutes to decide that they are enemies, but this time depends greatly
on the method in which the players explore. If they are clearly taking
precautions, moving with guns drawn, etc. then the time will be reduced, if
they are less timid in their investigation then it will take longer to realise
what is happening. Once it decides to eliminate the characters it will not act
immediately. Instead it will wait until characters are alone before attacking.
The robot is extremely dangerous, so perhaps it would be advisable to allow the
party to bring an NPC security guard or similar with them, so that the first
person found dead is not a player character. An encounter with the robot should
be terrifying, shadows moving amongst the clutter of the ship are likely to be
the only warning before the character is shot by a large figure which will
appear as if from nowhere. Use player paranoia to create the atmosphere,
mention half seen movements among the reactor machinery, strange sounds,
'footsteps' which turn out to be a sound from a fuel pump.

There are three major possibilities for dealing with the robot:
1. Heavy ordinance - Although the robot is heavily armoured, once a shot gets
under it's skin it is surprisingly fragile. One problem may be finding a weapon
which can damage the robot which is safe to use in confined spaces, but
carefully used fusion rifles or something exotic like EMP rifles should do the
trick. It may be possible to lure the robot outside, but because of its
sensors, it would be difficult to ambush it.
2. Fuel supply - The engineer's log should provide some clues to another method
of dealing with the robot. The limited fuel supply is a major weakness,
although it will not be possible to trick the robot into going too far to have
enough fuel to get back, the only source on the planet of hydrocarbon
distillates of a high enough grade to fuel the robot is in the tank in the
courier. If this were destroyed then the robot would cease to be a threat after
a few hours. In fact, after the fuel is destroyed it is likely to shut itself
down immediately, as it has no sense of revenge, and tracking down the players
after the fuel is destroyed would change nothing. That is not to say that while
the players try to destroy the fuel it will not try to stop them. It will
require good demolitions skills, or inspired planning to find a sure way to
destroy the fuel. The robot will attack the party to hinder them, and is
capable of using fire fighting equipment if the players try to burn the fuel.
3. Reprogramming - It could be possible to use the ship's computers to change
the robot's program. The security on the computer systems is fairly tight, it
would require a Difficult:Computer roll to break in to reprogram the A(P)-11.
On outstanding success the hacking is so fast that the robot doesn't have time
to respond, on normal success the party will have to defend the hacker from the
robot while he breaks into the system.

Once the mystery has been solved, and the assassin robot dealt with, the party
will be treated as honoured guests by the government. The salvage of an
uninfected and only superficially damaged starship will get underway (assuming
the players didn't blow it to pieces while hunting down the robot), and
preparations will be made back in the Coalition/Regency for the trial of a
group of remnant war criminals (assuming the players didn't pull the plug on
their low berths). The players will receive a finder's share in the courier
once it has been recovered, in addition to any standard wages.

A(P)-11 Robot

This robot was designed for deep security penetration and assassination
missions. Externally the robot appears human, although fairly heavily built,
and the robot can appear convincingly human in simple dialogue, although while
it is fluent in all major languages, it is not an amazing conversationalist.
Power consumption was a problem for the designers and one of the robot's major
weaknesses is its extremely limited endurance. For long insertion missions the
robot often carries additional fuel supplies, but for most purposes the robot's
endurance is sufficient.
The robot is designed for stealth and it's synthetic skin incorporates a
chameleon surface which can render it practically invisible when it remains
still for 1D20 combat rounds. EMM masking underneath the skin can hide the
robot from IR sensors, or be used to produce an IR signature which matches a
human.

Armour Values:All 14
Endurance:5.4hrs high power usage, endurance is doubled when not
moving.
Com Move:10/10
Initiative:6
Intelligence:6
Command func.High Autonomous

Assets:
Observation 16, Slug Weapon (Pistol) 16/32*, Voice Recognition 16, Language 11,
Stealth 16, Intrusion 16.
* The robot's armament is smartlinked so 32 is the effective skill level when
using the internal weapon.
Armament: Subsonic Gauss Weapon built into right arm.

Electronics:
500m NAS, DataJack, Inertial Navigation, Visual Eye, WSV eye, Image
Enhancement, Target Link, Display interface, Rangefinder, Telescopic Optics,
Light Amplification, Artificial ear, amplified hearing, low frequency hearing,
high frequency hearing, sonar, multiband radio receiver, grapple hand, voder.
'Looking glass' chameleon skin, subdermal EMM masking.

Mass: 249kg
TL: 16
Fuel Type:High grade hydrocarbon distillates (18.9dm^3)
Mnt:1
Damage:2+2
Travel Move:45/45
Price:Cr3,106,000

ArmSTRAGLLiftHitUMD
Left35125112
Right35120112

The robot's internal armament consists of a large bore gauss weapon which fires
rounds at 300m/s, inaudible beyond a few feet and producing no muzzle flash.
For a graduated response the robot carries internally two switchable magazines,
one carrying conventional rounds, and another carrying HEAP rounds for
situations where stealth can be compromised in exchange for increased striking
power.
ROF   Dam  Pen   Ammo  Rng
Subsonic Gauss Weapon5     3   1-Nil   30  23  Soluble Rounds
5     12   2-2-2   30     17      HEAP

The soluble rounds consist of a discarding sabot which is retained within the
weapon, and a biodegradeable polymer bullet which contains bacteria which are
released on impact, digesting the bullet within an hour. These rounds were
designed to intimidate lower technology targets by playing on superstitious
fears, and also provides the political advantages of causing confusion over the
wounds, and leaving no rounds which could be identified.

Disclaimer: The above is obviously a poorly justified plot device. However I
like it, so I included it, don't flame me for technical details, think up an
alternative that improves the plot and post it. Also, please excuse any
glitches in the plot or setting, it taken a long time to type this.......

I hope people find this useful, even if you don't use the adventure, the
A(P)-11 is quite a useful design, although Vampire Fleets forces some strange
compromises, particularly on endurance.

--
Brendan

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 618
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 619

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Classic Returns by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  2) Demo Teams for Traveller-4 by cmdrx@magicnet.net (Commander X)
  3) TRAVELLER and the "canon" by 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
  4) Re: World Tamers Handbook by aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
  5) RICE Paper JZ-03063: Talk Opera by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  6) Adventure: A ghost from the past (Part 1/2) by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  7) Is the list dead? by Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
  8) Engineering Crew by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
  9) World Tamer's by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
 10) Re: TRAVELLER digest 617 by Martineaux@aol.com
 11) Re: Classic Returns by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 07 Mar 96 15:17:05 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Classic Returns
Message-ID: <16941946@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

Am I the only one who has bittersweet feelings about this?  I grafted the
Twilight.2000 rules onto Traveller a long time ago(T.2000 v.1, as I recall) out
of a growing frustration with the task resolution, character depth issues. I
loved the environment that it described, just had some problems over the years
with tehe WAY it was described.

I sure like TNE(though finding players is hell), with the possible exceptions
of the lack of non-human races and the fairly sizable snafu with fusion weapons
early on.

Change is for the best, i suppose. I hope we all feel that way come August!

-j

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:37:41 -0500
From: cmdrx@magicnet.net (Commander X)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Demo Teams for Traveller-4
Message-ID: <199603072137.QAA01859@magicnet.magicnet.net>

Greetings one and all of the Traveller Mailing list.

I have been reading the latest news of the release of the new Traveller
System sometime this August(posibly at Gen-Con) and I am very excited!  I
was wondering if MM and FarFuture Ent. had any plans for a demo or
testplayer team like they had for TNE. If so I would like to know where and
what info Far Future may need.

Pregiven Thanx.

Commander X


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:00:08 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TRAVELLER and the "canon"
Message-ID: <199603072200.RAA21725@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

  From what I understood (and I may be wrong about this, so I'll try to get some
clarification), so that characters who are exploring the Imperium for the
first time won't be able to turn to previously published resources and
thereby ruin the mystery inherent in the game's setting, everything outside
of the borders of
the old Sylean Federation and perhaps some nearby subsectors will be UNKNOWN
i.e. will have no official game statistics. Each GM will be responsible for
creating the worlds that populate his or her Imperium, and everyone's
campaign will be different to some extent. Certain areas, such as the
Spinward Marches, might be retained (This is MY speculation), but others
will not.
   MY personal feeling is that Traveller erred the first time by having a
"CANON" in the first place. Broad historical timeline, yes; minutely
detailed future history leaving no room for GM creativity and
interpretation, nada.
Hopefully, this particular error will be avoided this time around.
                                           Allen Shock


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:09:50 -0700
From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: World Tamers Handbook
Message-ID: <199603072109.OAA02378@scratchy.itsnet.com>



>From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)

>Subject: Water Worlds

>I've been looking through World Tamers Handbook, and I was wondering if
>anyone had any ideas on how to develop agriculture and raw material
>statistics for water hexes(like in the Survey chapter).  Also, how do water
>communities(like the ones on Aubaine) fit into the economic model.  There
>doesn't seem to be any info on either developing water based facilities or
>on modifying land hexes to get water values.
What economic details are these please?


>From: farrarb@vnet.net (Bill Farrar)

>Subject: Re: World tamers Handbook

>
>On Thu, 7 Mar 1996 01:03:26 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>I am thinking of getting one more book for my GURPS Traveller game, the
>>world tamers handbook.
>The world tamers hanbook....I love it!  It get me a complete picture
>of everything from the star->system details to specific details abou
>the world.  There is a section about each of the major parts of the
>world: size, hydrosphere, etc etc down to pop, and tech
>
aparently, there are economic rules, do they give a way to figure the worlds
spending on thier armed forces?  details on trade?

>
>In general it's a good resource, I think that it can even be used
>standalone (the only question I have about that is if the technology
>levels, and travellers' universal world profile are all detailied in
>the book (I think they are:)
>
>One warning tho': It involves a great deal of rolling...i have spent a
>coupl of hours doing a detailed system...but I thought it was worth
>it.
how small are the details? i.e. down to the moons of the gas giants?

>
>bill
>



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 17:17:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RICE Paper JZ-03063: Talk Opera
Message-ID: <8BC440D.010006D971.uuout@execnet.com>


The recently popular performance art form of Talk Opera is an
adaptation of the Aslan dramatic form, \Trokh afera\ (this form
henceforth), which is considered by Aslan to be the "highest" (and
is certainly the most popular) form of performance art. In \Trokh
afera\ (usually translated as "Bardic Evocation"; literally,
"belly-mind"), the performers are not restricted to a stage, as in
most other performance art, but are expected to circulate through
the audience as appropriate, and interact directly with members of
the audience, getting the audience's views on the story line, which
usually involves a dilemma that the main characters must resolve.
This can, and not infrequently does, result in an ongoing dialogue
or debate between the performers and several particularly
articulate members of the audience; the resolution, as often as
not, is determined by audience consensus.

In the typical Aslan performance, dilemmas of honor are usually the
focus of the story; a character must find a solution to the dilemma
that will satisfy the honor of all parties to the dilemma. The
human interpretation of the art form is more likely to center
around ethical, philosophical, romantic, or political dilemmas.

In its "pure", Aslan form, \Trokh afera\ is performed without
props, and costumes are minimalist - enough to evoke the role being
portrayed, but no more than that, to avoid distracting the audience
from the process and story. Most human adaptations use more
elaborate costumes (as appropriate to the role), and props and
setting elements are not unusual, though minimal by normal
standards.

Several "classic" human dramas have been adapted to \Trokh afera\,
including the Terran \Romeo and Juliette\ and \Hamlet\, the Vilani
\Dilaama Gushilamuu Libamira\, and the Sylean \Sekhnara Artiroka\.
In general, these adaptations have been well received.

Several non-Aslan dramatic forms have influenced adaptation of
\Trokh afera\, including "Theater in the Round", Arcturan
"Incorporative Dance", and Vargr "Aleatoric Performance". The
resulting art form has been characterised by human reviewers as
"more dynamic" and "more intense" than the Aslan form; Aslan
reviewers claim that it exhibits a "less than full understanding"
of the nuances of "pure" \Trokh afera\, but acknowledge the need to
relate to non-Aslan "in ways that they better understand."

Reaction to these adaptations among Aslan in the Regency (including
assimilated Aslan) has been mixed. A marked preference for "pure"
\Trokh afera\ among Aslan has been noted, but attendance by Aslan
at adapted performances is significantly higher than at
performances in more traditional human styles. Also noteworthy is
the fact that adaptations of \Trokh afera\ are in general better
attended by Aslan than are many performances in Aslan styles other
than \Trokh afera\.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:36:16 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Adventure: A ghost from the past (Part 1/2)
Message-ID: <174@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

It's been a fairly long break since the last few adventures I posted, but here
is a one-off adventure set in the RC. If anyone is interested, I may get round
to typing up part three of the Dark Century campaign and posting it in the next
couple of weeks, but there is another project I'm working on which might come
first.

Brief description:
The characters are Coalition trouble-shooters, called in by a bootstrap team
working on a frontier world to aid in the investigation of some mysterious
assassinations of leading government figures, which are threatening the
stability of the Coalition supported faction on the world. Timing is not
important, and in fact, the adventure could fairly easily be converted to a
Regency contact team setting. The setting has been left deliberately vague to
allow transplantation into a variety of campaigns, but the world should be
balkanised and of low technology (TL4-5)

Briefing

The initial mission briefing takes place on the tiny makeshift space station of
150 displacement tons which has been left orbiting the world. Although fairly
new, the construction of many of the station's fittings appears cheap, from the
exposed piping on the exterior, to the flimsy blue plastic of the tables in the
galley and the slightly unpleasant chill of a poorly calibrated air
conditioner. The station has a permanent crew of twenty, although it has
sufficient capacity for double this number. A single missile turret provides
token defence for the station, but a greater insurance of safety is in the lack
of plunderable resources to attract pirates to the world.
The mission briefing takes place in the small command room of the station, on
arrival the characters are escorted there quickly from the docking ring. On
monitors around the room are several images of the world, spinning slowly but
visibly beneath the station. Other smaller monitors around the edges of the
larger screens show weather patterns being tracked and the status of the
handful of satellites that make up a rudimentary communications system for the
operatives on the ground.
The station commander is fairly young, and the dress uniform he wears for the
briefing suggests some anxiety about reports the players may make to his
superiors.
'I'll try to be brief, the situation on the ground is fragile and your presence
is needed urgently. Most of the information you need can be acquired
planetside, so I'll just give you an overview while my flight crew prepare the
interface shuttle, okay?'  He gestures to on of the wall displays which updates
to show a spinning image of the mainworld, as you watch, the major continent is
highlighted in red. 'Our mission here is as a liaison to the largest faction on
the planet, The Federation of  Tomorrow, a comparatively progressive democracy
which commands popular support, there are many other smaller factions also on
the planet (the map highlights a patchwork of different coloured areas around
the edges of the central red area) and following our contact with the
Federation, many of them formed a loose alliance due to fears of offworld
domination. The Federation is governed by ten representatives, one elected from
each of the provinces, which form a council in the nation's capital. Three
weeks ago, the head of the council was assassinated, and since then two more
members of the council have been killed. We believe that the assassinations
have been carried out by one of the rival powers on the planet, but the local
security forces insist that the killings were carried out by a ghost, some kind
of local superstition. We don't have the resources here to investigate this
matter, so we have been waiting for the Coalition to send specialists to assist
us. It is imperative that you get to the bottom of this as our helplessness has
encouraged dissenting factions that would like to see us leave the planet
completely.'  As he finishes a woman in a slightly scrumpled flight suit enters
the room. She salutes with a sharpness that seems strangely out of place with
her appearance.
'Yes Lieutenant?' the captain inquires.
'The pre-flight checks on the lander are complete, sir. There's still that
problem on the number two thruster, but the contra grav has just been refitted,
so I don't think there's much danger of leaving the capital with another crater
nearby', she then addresses the characters 'If you'd like to follow me, then.'
She salutes again, then turns ands leaves at a brisk walk. (Any characters with
Ship's Engineering can inspect the interface shuttle before entrusting their
life to it, should they wish. Most likely they will agree with the pilot's
assessment that the risk is minimal, although on a fumble they may remain
convinced that there is significant danger. In this case, if the character
persuades the others to wait for repair the station captain will try to
persuade them to go regardless, however, if they still remain on the station
there will be another assassination a few hours before they realise that the
shuttle is in better condition than it looks. This should have no effect on the
progress of the plot, but should leave a mark on the player's consciences)

Planetfall

Despite a strange grating noise as the thrusters fire to slow the lander before
touchdown, the landing from the station is uneventful. The pilot brings the
ship to rest in a large sandy bottomed crater, possibly 500 meters in diameter.
In the distance the green countryside is broken by a darker area, the capital
city still being too distant to resolve any detail with the naked eye.
As the characters leave the interface shuttle they will notice that in the
centre of the crater the sand has been fused together into a glassy surface,
presumably by the heat of repeated landings. It is Easy:Acrobatics or Agility
to avoid falling over, on failure the character falls and cuts their hand on a
shard of glass broken from the surface by the pressure of the landing gear
(1D6/2 damage to an arm).
The pilot leads the players up the side of the crater, talking between breaths
'They don't like us to come in to land too close to the city, nothing personal,
they just had a few bad experiences with stuff falling out of the sky a while
back. The crater makes quite a good landing site, keeps us out of the wind on
the final part of the descent, and the surface is quite solid now that we've
blasted it a few times with the HEPlaR to keep the sand down. We think that
this crater was the result of a small nuke from the Final War, perhaps it
missed the city, perhaps it just got left in an unstable orbit after a fleet
engagement up there (she looks up at the sky, turning a golden yellow as the
sun sinks towards the horizon), and this where it came down. Maybe they were
shooting at something on the ground, who knows? The radiation has mostly
decayed now, but I'm not saying I'd want to build a house here.' As the
characters climb over the lip of the crater they are confronted by the sight of
a small building next to some railway tracks. Little more than a shed, the
structure still has a neatly painted sign on it which reads 'Starport'.
'They built it for us. Well, the tracks ran nearby anyway, and they wanted to
do something to show us they appreciate us being here. Don't worry about those
cracks in the structure, we had a small earthquake a few months ago, but most
of the damage was superficial. A train should be along soon that will take you
into the city, just wait here and get on, you won't need a ticket. Me, I've got
to get back to the station and work on the shuttle, we'll need _all_ the
engines working if we need to evacuate suddenly. Look, I hope you get to the
bottom of this, it's strange, but I've kind of got used to this place and I
wouldn't want to get reassigned.' With this last word she begins back down the
slope into the crater. A few minutes later the shuttle lifts off, the thrusters
giving off a heat which is only just bearable, like standing slightly too close
to a fire.
After a wait of ten minutes on a bench in the unmanned station building a steam
train arrives at the platform and slowly screeches to a halt. The driver
invites the characters to ride with him in the engine, or alternatively seats
in the carriages can be taken. The journey to the city takes twenty minutes and
is uneventful.

The characters are met at the station by state security officers, who wear deep
blue uniforms and carry revolvers as sidearms. They look relieved to see the
characters, and explain that they would be grateful if the party would inspect
the security arrangements around the home of the acting head of state (his two
predecessors having been assassinated too recently for the government to affirm
his succession). The security officers drive the players to a large house on
the edge of town.

Shutting up for the night

The house has three stories and is surrounded on all sides by ten metres of
lawn. A few patches of bare earth show where bushes and other cover have been
recently uprooted. A ten foot high brick wall topped with razor wire surrounds
the building. The party is greeted at the gate by a senior security officer who
greets them warmly before addressing them with respect to the situation:
'As you can see, we've tightened up security around the house since this
started happening, but of course you'll want to see that for yourself. We have
done everything possible, it would be enough to stop any man but I still reckon
it won't be enough to deal with what we're facing here, a ghost, a curse, call
it what you will, it's something more than we can understand.'
He than leads the party off to inspect the premises. The following details can
be related as requested:
-The Head of State sleeps in a bedroom on the third floor. There are no
drainpipes or similar aids to climbing the wall, which is smooth stone. A pair
of guards are stationed at the bottom of the wall, underneath the window.
-The other entrance to the bedroom is from the top floor hallway. There are a
further two guards watching the bedroom.
-During the day the premier is accompanied by two bodyguards. The security
during the day seems to be far less tight than that at night. As the other
killings were at night, and as the security men genuinely believe that they are
dealing with the supernatural, they expect the greatest danger to come in the
dark.
- Four security guards surround the house, one watching each side, and a
further four patrol round the outside of the house's walls.

The players should be able to suggest some security improvements eg. better
lighting, more guards, patrol route alterations, even some kind of decoy in the
main bedroom. Despite all this however, the events of the night are largely
unavoidable...

The party are likely to be tired and will be offered accommodation in the house
for the night. Some players may alternatively wish to help with the night
watch, this poses few problems unless the characters involved have very high
observation assets and advanced sensor equipment or cyberware. Even if they do
choose to stay up, fatigue, and the assassin's unusual ability to detect
cyberware and avoid those who carry it should ensure that the players will have
little chance of having any effect on the night's events, as they are extremely
unlikely to have any idea of what they are facing.

Another assassination

A few hours after sunrise, after a quiet night without any disturbances, the
characters will be woken by a scream coming from a bedroom on the top floor of
the house. Characters rushing to find out what has happened will find a shocked
maid standing over a dropped tray of breakfast inside the door of the
President's room. The President lies in bed, but a large red stain spreading
across the sheets indicates that despite all the precautions taken, the
assassin has struck again. Yet the guards stationed at the only two entrances
to the room saw nothing all night.

Post Mortem
The five wounds to the President are of an unusual nature. On first inspection
(Average:Medical or Average:Education for characters with military experience)
the wounds are consistent with large calibre gunshot wounds. However, despite
showing none of the burning typical of laser or high energy weapons, the wounds
have no physical bullets inside (Average:Medical for a character to determine
this, or if there is no medic in the party then a doctor will arrive within a
hour). The wound depth is also unusually shallow considering the probable size
of the round, although the wounds are certainly deep enough to be fatal. Closer
inspection of the wounds (Difficult:Medical) will reveal an unusual degree of
bacterial infection of the wounds (this would be missed by a visiting doctor).
The staff of the house need no convincing that the murder is supernatural, the
silence, the apparent invisibility of the assassin and the missing bullets all
convincing them beyond doubt, as well as creating some doubts in the minds of
the party as to whether they are facing an enemy agent or a ghost. The
household are all in shock and seem far less welcoming to the characters than
they had the day before, they are all talking to each other about the 'hundred
year curse' in whispers.

There are several important pieces of evidence around the house. For each clue,
relevant skills are listed, along with task difficulties which are dependent on
the declared area of search. In addition to this, successful Investigation
rolls could help uncover clues which have been missed.

Bedroom - Difficult:Observation
Bedroom window - Average:Observation
In the corner of the window of the bedroom there is a small hole in the glass.
A circle about three centimetres across has been cut cleanly from the glass.
Partially covered by a curtain, the hole is hard to see. Formidable:Observation
- Glass dust on the inside of the window shows that it was cut from outside.

Average:Observation
The direction of the gunshot wounds on the victim indicates that they were shot
from the general direction of the closed window. Careful measurement and
calculation (Difficult:Investigation) could link the wounds to the hole in the
window.

Garden - Formidable:Observation
The razor wire across the top of the wall has been very slightly flattened in
one section. There is no sign of any blood or cloth on the wire.

Garden - Formidable:Observation
Leading across one patch of bare earth are a set of particularly distinct
footprints. The footprints indicate a normal size foot, but the depth of the
footprints is about five centimetres compared to the footprints left by the
characters which are at most two or three centimetres deep. The trail
disappears once the firmer turf at the edge of the flower bed is reached.

Local Bars - Difficult:Streetwise
Players may wish to investigate the possibility of an enemy agent being behind
the killings. Talking to people in bars does reveal a degree of xenophobia with
respect to foreigners, but this does not help the players track anybody down,
since in the eyes of the locals, anyone with an accent is suspicious.

Local Library - Average:Research
Looking through the history archives will reveal one particularly significant
event in relation to the events of the recent weeks. There is a record of a
similar spate of killings of senior government officials almost one hundred
years ago, shortly after fighting in the Final War reached the area. The nature
of the injuries recorded in the press clippings matches very closely with what
has been observed here. The killer was never apprehended and since then has
acquired a semi-mythical status, in the same way as the Terran serial killer
'Jack the Ripper'. During the Final war, the planet was not involved in the
fighting in any significant way, lacking any starport, although considerable
fleet traffic passed through the system, using it as a refuelling stop. The
investigation into the murders was curtailed by a small nuclear explosion near
to the city, which caused considerable damage and confusion.

Referees

So what exactly is going on? The cause of these events can be traced back to
1116. During the Final War a small robotics company developed a variety of
assassin robots, for sale to any faction willing to put up the credits. As part
of the testing and evaluation of the robots a small military vessel was used to
deliver prototype units to worlds which were for whatever reason insulated from
the interstellar community. On these worlds the company could carry out
'testing' without danger of repercussions from any faction. On this world
however, after the test had been completed, as the courier made ready to depart
it was detected by a cruiser passing through the system. Refusing to
acknowledge the cruiser's communications and operating without a transponder,
the courier was assumed to be an enemy vessel and the cruiser fired on it from
orbit. The missile used was not intended for atmospheric operations and in the
terminal phase of its flight towards the courier, high winds caused the flight
computer to lock up as it tried to correct for every gust. The missile impacted
a few hundred meters from the courier, causing it little damage, but flipping
it onto its side, and burying it under several meters of the material that was
thrown up from the explosion. The efforts of the crew to free themselves were
futile, the airlock was buried, and the det-laser missiles carried by the
courier offered no way to cut themselves free. The crew put themselves into the
emergency low berths to wait for the rescue party from the company. Meanwhile
the company headquarters, containing all records of the mission, had been
destroyed in fighting, and so the rescue party never came.
More recently, an earthquake uncovered the airlock, which now lies at the
bottom of a three-meter deep crack in the ground in the middle of a small
forest. The A(P)-11 robot had remained on standby for years, powered by a
trickle of electricity from the fusion plant. When the earthquake hit the
tremor shook a loose power connection to the robot, temporarily disconnecting
the electricity which the robot was using to preserve its internal settings.
This resulted in the robot resetting itself. It now believes that the original
'testing' never took place, and a month before the players arrived, it resumed
its original programming.
Programmed with exceptional stealth abilities, and with sensors and electronics
subsystems which aid in avoiding detection, the robot is almost invisible when
involved in a planned execution. It is only when it is forced to improvise that
there is any possibility of detection. Unfortunately, the patrols which were
organised to protect the president were nothing unconventional, so the robot
had little trouble in using its grapple to climb undetected up to the roof,
matching the texture of the wall, and then lowering itself down to the
president's window where it used a silenced weapon for the assassination.

He doesn't know his own strength

During the players' investigations they will be approached by a flustered
looking doctor, accompanied by two security guards. The doctor talks rapidly,
turning slightly red as he does so:
'I'm very sorry to interrupt you, I'm sure you have other things to attend to,
but I wonder if I could possibly request your assistance, just for a few hours,
I wouldn't ask, only, well, there has been something of an incident at a local
school. I've never seen anything like it, but perhaps you may know this
situation better. This really is a matter of urgency, please come with us to
the hospital.' He pauses to catch breath, before launching into another
monologue 'But of course, you don't know what has happened. Well, it seems that
one of the older boys at a local school has somehow got hold of one of your
weapons, or something like it, and has shot one of the younger pupils. He
really is in a very bad way and I fear we can do little more for him, worse
yet, this other boy has run off, and nobody knows who he is. This boy is the
only witness and we need your help to save him.'
[What has happened here is not the fault of the players or any of the station
staff. The weapon, an old laser carbine, was found by the older boy, Hoyt Adaki
inside the old courier, which he discovered while hiding in the woods to skip
school. Sadly Hoyt is a sadistic and violent individual, and when a younger
child at school annoyed him, he shot him]
The players may choose not to involve themselves in this, especially if they
feel that their lack of medical experience would make them more of a nuisance
than an advisor. This doesn't matter as there will be opportunity to follow
this lead later.

At the hospital

As the party enters the room containing Hoyt's victim, Ulex Grey, they can
smell a charred odour. The boy is apparently only eleven or twelve, and all
present will immediately notice that he has a red line burnt across his cheek,
which Average:Education or Medical can identify as a laser wound. When the
players arrive he is unconscious, and the nurses present will tell the players
he has been that way since he arrived in hospital. An Average:Medical
(Diagnosis) roll will indicate that the laser wounds to his torso have damaged
his heart, and although cauterisation from the heat has prevented much of the
bleeding, his pulse is becoming rapidly more erratic, and will likely suffer
heart failure within a few hours. Failure on the diagnosis will provide the
information above, but will make all medical tasks one level harder.
Catastrophic failure in diagnosis will suggest that the damage is less severe
than it actually is. This makes all further tasks two levels harder, and the
players may wrongly decide to leave the child alone. There are two major
options for treatment

- The child could be treated in the hospital. The operation is
Difficult:Medical (Surgery) due to the primitive equipment available. On
success, the child regains consciousness for a few hours before slipping back
into a terminal coma. This time will allow gentle questioning, revealing the
identity of his attacker. On Critical Success the child will eventually make a
full recovery, making the characters involved into minor local heroes. Failure
indicates that nothing the characters try to save him is successful.
- The medbay on the space station is better equipped to deal with these
injuries. It will take 1D6 hours for the lander to arrive after it has been
requested, and then a further hour to return to the station. Keeping Ulex alive
until he can be taken to the station is determined by the success of an
Average:Medical (Trauma Aid) task. Success gives him 1D6+1 hours to live.
Critical success gives him 1D6+5 hours to live and failure (or catastrophic
failure) 1D6-2. Once he reaches the medbay, the surgery task becomes
Average:Medical (surgery), with effects of success as above.

If the players are successful in obtaining the name of his attacker, then they
can cross-reference it with school records to find the boy's home address. If
they do this quickly (only possible if they operated in the hospital), then
they could intercept Hoyt before his amateur bank robbery. In this case it may
be easier to apprehend him and with less danger to civilians than at the scene
of the robbery. If the players choose this option, then I leave it up to you to
determine the course of events, bearing in mind that ideally the players should
subdue Hoyt without injury.

The robbery

While the party is passing through one of the commercial districts of the city,
they will be blocked on one street by a security cordon across the road. A
dozen national security men are crouched behind trees and bushes opposite a
bank. On the steps leading up to the bank doors a security officer lies holding
his chest, obviously in considerable pain. Inside Hoyt is holding six terrified
bank workers hostage. Although hopelessly amateur in his execution of the
robbery, Hoyt's paranoia has made it too risky for security to try anything,
one man who tried to enter the building was shot down as he tried to climb the
stairs.

Hoyt, Experienced NPC, Assets:Melee (Unarmed), Laser pistol 6, Observation 6.
Armed with a TL-13 CLC laser carbine (4 rounds remaining)

In this situation the players have several objectives -
1. To free the hostages
2. To try to rescue the man on the steps. (This must be done very quickly, and
the man must be operated on in a local hospital, Formidable:Medical (Surgery)
to save him)
3. To capture Hoyt alive, to find out where he acquired the weapon.

The hostages are being held in the foyer of the bank, and can be seen through
the windows. Hoyt is staying away from the windows, and reflections make it
hard to see where he is, although NAS or similar high tech sensors could detect
him. He is standing in a position where he can see the front steps, but little
beyond that.

The party does have several things which will help them apprehend him.
- He doesn't know that the ammunition in the carbine is limited.
- The bank has a back entrance which could be used to mount a surprise attack,
unfortunately, only the bank manager has the keys and he is one of the
hostages. It is a difficult:Intrusion task to break in, and either a
distraction or a difficult:Stealth roll will also be necessary to hide the
noise.
- One of the bankers was eating out at a restaurant and has just returned. He
can provide the players with information about the layout of the bank.

Unless the players use obviously excessive force (fusion rifles, HE grenades
etc) Hoyt will be captured and it will be possible to interrogate him, and find
out the location of the buried starship.

Digging up the past.
The party can take the train back to the Starport station. On arrival, they can
see the forest described by Hoyt begins about a hundred meters from the edge of
the crater.
It takes about a hours of searching through the undergrowth, which seems to
consist entirely of a thorny scarlet creepers, to find the entrance to the
ship. The ground has cracked open leaving a gap which is a meter wide and about
five meters long. It slopes downwards at about a forty five degree angle, and
about four meters down, a smooth metallic surface can be seen. The airlock is
at one end of the fissure, half obstructed by the earth. The airlock is jammed
open, some rocks having fallen into the track which the airlock door slides on.
It is a tight fit to get through the airlock, but once inside, it is clear that
little dirt has fallen into the vessel.

The airlock opens onto the main living area of the ship. The interior feels
extremely claustrophobic. The lighting is provided by small low power emergency
lights in the ceiling, about half of the lights are broken, burnt out after
years of use. Although sufficient to see by, the lighting takes a while to
adjust to after the bright daylight outside, and the irregular arrangement
casts strange shadows across the walls.
A table fills most of the room and a couple of plastic cups lie on the floor,
as do the dried remains of a tall plant, its pot knocked onto its side,
spilling soil across the tight woven carpet. A narrow corridor leads towards
the front of the ship and the bridge, and a similar corridor leads backwards to
the hold and engineering sections.
Engine room. The engineering components of the ship are contained within a
single room, but blast screens divide up the compartment, and there are
emergency bulkheads which can close off damaged sections. There is a low
humming noise from the main reactor, which is operating on a trickle of fuel
from the jump tankage, the much smaller reactor fuel tanks having been drained
decades ago.
Hold. The small hold contains a pair of emergency low berths. Each contains
four people. The display on the side of the freezers indicates that the crew
members inside are still alive, although the power plant will need to be
brought back up to a higher output to power the revival process. Also in the
hold is a tall cabinet with the impression of a heavily built humanoid. A
socket in the impression corresponds to the small of the back. Easy:Robotics
test to determine that this is a storage unit for a humanoid robot. Further
reinforced piping leads from the cabinet to an unmarked tank a few meters away.
The tank contains hydrocarbon distillates, the top can be opened to discover
this, however the mixture of fuel vapour and air at the top of the tank could
pose an explosive danger if there are any sources of ignition nearby.
The people in the low berths will probably pose a moral dilemma for the
players. By the time the characters will have been able to bring the power
plant and main computers on-line to revive them, they will almost certainly
have recovered log entries from the crew's personal quarters which will
describe the nature of the mission they were involved in. Should the players
revive them? They are murderers with a corporate morality which belongs in the
past, but at the same time their knowledge and skills could be put to great
use.
Quarters. The corridor leading from the main living area forwards to the bridge
has doors to crew cabins on the left and the right. In most rooms a personal
hand computer can be located easily, which will describe the mission of the
courier and the events which lead to it being buried. In addition, the
engineer's hand computer contains performance and technical specifications of
the A(P)-11. The quarters are fairly tidy, a common feature of all being a lack
of any great number of personal effects, only one or two souvenirs, an unusual
shell in one, an ornately crafted pen in another, a painting of a sunset over a
city of lights in the captain's room.

--
Brendan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Mar 96 11:28:11 +1000
From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Is the list dead?
Message-ID: <9603080128.AA10146@swordfish.jcu.edu.au>

hi,

Is the list dead or have I been mysteriously (& silently) unsubscribed?


        Dr Pauli

Paul Dale                       | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
Computer Centre                 | +61 77 814 551
James Cook University           |
Australia, 4811                 | Did you know that there are 41 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 19:34:09 EST
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Engineering Crew
Message-ID: <199603080132.SAA25977@usr3.primenet.com>

A draw back to using New Era regs for staffing a starships engine room is the
large crew requirements. I remember High-Guard had a simular problem. One
engineer per 35 Dtons for small ships. Or one engineer per 100 Dtons for large
ships.

My solution for the New Era is thus, use the crew formala #crew(small Ship)
=mw/30*cp. If # of crew =< 8, no modification. But # of crew > 8, then # crew/3=
# crew(large ship). The crew would rotate in 3 watches. # crew/ 4= # per watch.
The first watch would include the maintaince watch thats responsible for repair
and mantance. All others would be responsible for the routine operatition of the
engines.




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 20:19:47 -0900
From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: World Tamer's
Message-ID: <v01530501ad657226b86a@[137.229.100.64]>

World Tamer's Handbook is a wonderful adjunct to World Builder's (Grand
Suvey/Census); It is quite useful if one is doing colonization type
adventures, or dropping PC's in on relatively young colonies.

What It Has: Details on survey of a potential site, procedures for survey
of a world. Building and running colonies. Costs and production.

What it desperately lacks: Mass-volume comparisons for the production units
involved; it lists no volumes, either as cargo or operable machinery, for
any of the capital investment stuff. (I figured on tonnage metric as cargo
volume in Disp Tons, and 4 times that for operable, when I once built a
high port from scratch.)

It is very much centered around the RC, but may be usefull.

It also contains the TNE rules for gravity and atmospheric
adaptation/acclimitization; they are simple enough, but add much detail
that tends to restrict adventuring.

I'm glad I bought it, but don't really reccomend it until you *KNOW* you
can't live without it.

-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:                  ANWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
Phi Alpha Theta at UAA: HTTP://orion.alaska.edu/~abpat/index.html



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:44:06 -0500
From: Martineaux@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 617
Message-ID: <960308004405_163252169@emout10.mail.aol.com>


I got the Digest 617. It looks like it is working.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 02:52:48 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Classic Returns
Message-ID: <01I22WHJ4WZM9LV4HH@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  7-MAR-1996 13:24:17.41
To:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:
Subj:Classic Returns

Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 15:17:35 -0500
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Classic Returns
Sender: traveller@MPGN.COM

Am I the only one who has bittersweet feelings about this?  I grafted the
Twilight.2000 rules onto Traveller a long time ago(T.2000 v.1, as I recall) out
of a growing frustration with the task resolution, character depth issues. I
loved the environment that it described, just had some problems over the years
with tehe WAY it was described.

-j
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I feel that the task resolution system, as originally applied to CT by the
original DGP, was, at the very least, quite adequate. For myself, I'm quite
heartened by MM's declaration that he plans to please himself first & fore-
most. IMO, Traveller was MM was heavily involved & declined as his involve-
ment decreased. I eagerly await the release of the new Trav.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 619
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 620

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Traveller Products: Imperium by Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
  2) Re: World Tamer's Handbook by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
  3) Re: World Tamer's Handbook by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  4) Adventure part one repost by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  5) NEW? TRAVELLER by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:10:20 +0000
From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Cc: ImperGame@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Products: Imperium
Message-ID: <m0tv1Ku-0001NyC@kiel.netsurf.de>

I'd like to add some comments to this announcement.

>TRAVELLER

I assume, this book will also include world and animal-encounter generation.
What's about adding a second, optional 3D-star system generation schema as
2300AD was sayed to have. Traveller's background is great but the real
strength of Traveller lays in the possibility to play in alternate settings,
too.

>STARSHIPS

Sounds good. Will this book also include some starship design schema?

>CENTRAL SUPPLY CATALOG

But I hope, the TRAVELLER book alone is ready to play? Hopefully this isn't
only a book full of weapons as the "RC Equipment Guide" was. I would like to
see all kinds of normal life hitech gadgets from 3D-Holovis, Creditcards to
ancient artefacts.

>ALIENS ARCHIVES

Especially the alien race generation schema sounds great. Some more minor
races and more information about the major ones, would be make up a great
supplement.

>MILIEU 0: The Third Imperium

Well, it's a good decission for the new (default?) background? It's an age
of re-exploring and re-conquering the universe - in some aspects like the
RC-setting - but without virus. Technology is (TL13 if I remember right) as
low as in the RC setting but (I strongly hope) it's a more peaceful setting.

>FIRST SURVEY
>out, systems are less well-defined. Each adventuring group determines
>its own survey results for each system they visit. Lester Smith.

That's good. Don't try to define all aspects but let them to the referees.
Will this book use the same old UPP data or something better (or at least
improved for better results)?

>Third Imperium Weapons

Well, perhaps such a book have to be published, too. I would wish the same
announce graphic detail and history behind for other equipment from the
SUPPLY CATALOG, too.

>Adventure Class Ships

I'm a bit undecided about this book. What makes player ship special? Will
only this book include a design schema? Will this book include info on abord
life, standard procedures as docking, landing, starport procedures and so on?

>Anomalies

What's an EPIC adventure in contrast with ORDINARY adventures?

>Pocket Empires

Yeah! As I think, the only real workable way to build up such as the third
empire isn't millitary conquest but colonialism and economic relations. One
thousand civil explorer could succeed more than 1000 soldiers.

>Small Craft
>Not only will this book supply a player with new
>ships less then 100 tons

Jump capable? Will they CT 100t barrier fall? (I hope so!)

>TRAVELLER: Strategic Battles

Why not...

>For additional information, to be added to our mailing list,

Yes please!

As a final note, I hope in new edition of Traveller the social aspect of
meeting different (or alien) cultures and races will be emphazised more as
in TNE. Remeber, shooting at each other isn't the only form of interaction.

bye
--
Stefan Matthias Aust  //  ...come on, kiss the frog!
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/sma/


------------------------------

Date:          Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:39:26 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: World Tamer's Handbook
Message-ID: <4E40266F3E@daisy.le.ac.uk>

I don't know if it will be much help, but I found that the World
Tamer's Handbook gave me much of the information I needed to set up
colony worlds.  However, DGP's Scout Handbook (not the correct title,
but I'm sure someone could tell you the right answer) was much more
useful in setting up complex worlds, star systems and so on.  Both
are products worth checking out.

--MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

"Then you must cut down the largest tree in the forest with...
           A HERRING."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 21:50:24 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: World Tamer's Handbook
Message-ID: <177@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

Mark Trickett wrote :
> I don't know if it will be much help, but I found that the World
> Tamer's Handbook gave me much of the information I needed to set up
> colony worlds.  However, DGP's Scout Handbook (not the correct title,
> but I'm sure someone could tell you the right answer) was much more
> useful in setting up complex worlds, star systems and so on.  Both
> are products worth checking out.
>
> --MARK
>
> Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)
>

I think you mean the DGP World Builder's Handbook. This is still one of my
favourite MT books, and the world generation is incredibly complete (but
somewhat heavy going), but it was the detail it added to the scout service
really impressed me (the detail on the survey starships was superb).

The World Tamer's handbook actually had a lot of interesting bits and pieces
for any TNE campaign, not just the colony/political campaigns which it
describes:
- Planetary scale combat
- Diseases
- Black powder weapons and bows

The difference between World Builder's and World Tamer's is that Builder's
concentrates on exploration and survey of worlds, whereas Tamer's is more
concerned with development of new settlements on those worlds.
With respect to star system generation, the difference between them is shown
well by the number of pages each actually uses for the planet generation
system:
Tamer's     10 pages
Builder's   40 pages

--
Brendan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 21:33:39 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Adventure part one repost
Message-ID: <176@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

I've received a number of messages from people who missed part one of the
adventure due to the mpgn problems. I would have sent both parts together but
my cheap freeware mail software doesn't like long files. Still, part one was
the bulk of the adventure, so sorry if anyone ends up with two copies.

Brief description:
The characters are Coalition trouble-shooters, called in by a bootstrap team
working on a frontier world to aid in the investigation of some mysterious
assassinations of leading government figures, which are threatening the
stability of the Coalition supported faction on the world. Timing is not
important, and in fact, the adventure could fairly easily be converted to a
Regency contact team setting. The setting has been left deliberately vague to
allow transplantation into a variety of campaigns, but the world should be
balkanised and of low technology (TL4-5)

Briefing

The initial mission briefing takes place on the tiny makeshift space station of
150 displacement tons which has been left orbiting the world. Although fairly
new, the construction of many of the station's fittings appears cheap, from the
exposed piping on the exterior, to the flimsy blue plastic of the tables in the
galley and the slightly unpleasant chill of a poorly calibrated air
conditioner. The station has a permanent crew of twenty, although it has
sufficient capacity for double this number. A single missile turret provides
token defence for the station, but a greater insurance of safety is in the lack
of plunderable resources to attract pirates to the world.
The mission briefing takes place in the small command room of the station, on
arrival the characters are escorted there quickly from the docking ring. On
monitors around the room are several images of the world, spinning slowly but
visibly beneath the station. Other smaller monitors around the edges of the
larger screens show weather patterns being tracked and the status of the
handful of satellites that make up a rudimentary communications system for the
operatives on the ground.
The station commander is fairly young, and the dress uniform he wears for the
briefing suggests some anxiety about reports the players may make to his
superiors.
'I'll try to be brief, the situation on the ground is fragile and your presence
is needed urgently. Most of the information you need can be acquired
planetside, so I'll just give you an overview while my flight crew prepare the
interface shuttle, okay?'  He gestures to on of the wall displays which updates
to show a spinning image of the mainworld, as you watch, the major continent is
highlighted in red. 'Our mission here is as a liaison to the largest faction on
the planet, The Federation of  Tomorrow, a comparatively progressive democracy
which commands popular support, there are many other smaller factions also on
the planet (the map highlights a patchwork of different coloured areas around
the edges of the central red area) and following our contact with the
Federation, many of them formed a loose alliance due to fears of offworld
domination. The Federation is governed by ten representatives, one elected from
each of the provinces, which form a council in the nation's capital. Three
weeks ago, the head of the council was assassinated, and since then two more
members of the council have been killed. We believe that the assassinations
have been carried out by one of the rival powers on the planet, but the local
security forces insist that the killings were carried out by a ghost, some kind
of local superstition. We don't have the resources here to investigate this
matter, so we have been waiting for the Coalition to send specialists to assist
us. It is imperative that you get to the bottom of this as our helplessness has
encouraged dissenting factions that would like to see us leave the planet
completely.'  As he finishes a woman in a slightly scrumpled flight suit enters
the room. She salutes with a sharpness that seems strangely out of place with
her appearance.
'Yes Lieutenant?' the captain inquires.
'The pre-flight checks on the lander are complete, sir. There's still that
problem on the number two thruster, but the contra grav has just been refitted,
so I don't think there's much danger of leaving the capital with another crater
nearby', she then addresses the characters 'If you'd like to follow me, then.'
She salutes again, then turns ands leaves at a brisk walk. (Any characters with
Ship's Engineering can inspect the interface shuttle before entrusting their
life to it, should they wish. Most likely they will agree with the pilot's
assessment that the risk is minimal, although on a fumble they may remain
convinced that there is significant danger. In this case, if the character
persuades the others to wait for repair the station captain will try to
persuade them to go regardless, however, if they still remain on the station
there will be another assassination a few hours before they realise that the
shuttle is in better condition than it looks. This should have no effect on the
progress of the plot, but should leave a mark on the player's consciences)

Planetfall

Despite a strange grating noise as the thrusters fire to slow the lander before
touchdown, the landing from the station is uneventful. The pilot brings the
ship to rest in a large sandy bottomed crater, possibly 500 meters in diameter.
In the distance the green countryside is broken by a darker area, the capital
city still being too distant to resolve any detail with the naked eye.
As the characters leave the interface shuttle they will notice that in the
centre of the crater the sand has been fused together into a glassy surface,
presumably by the heat of repeated landings. It is Easy:Acrobatics or Agility
to avoid falling over, on failure the character falls and cuts their hand on a
shard of glass broken from the surface by the pressure of the landing gear
(1D6/2 damage to an arm).
The pilot leads the players up the side of the crater, talking between breaths
'They don't like us to come in to land too close to the city, nothing personal,
they just had a few bad experiences with stuff falling out of the sky a while
back. The crater makes quite a good landing site, keeps us out of the wind on
the final part of the descent, and the surface is quite solid now that we've
blasted it a few times with the HEPlaR to keep the sand down. We think that
this crater was the result of a small nuke from the Final War, perhaps it
missed the city, perhaps it just got left in an unstable orbit after a fleet
engagement up there (she looks up at the sky, turning a golden yellow as the
sun sinks towards the horizon), and this where it came down. Maybe they were
shooting at something on the ground, who knows? The radiation has mostly
decayed now, but I'm not saying I'd want to build a house here.' As the
characters climb over the lip of the crater they are confronted by the sight of
a small building next to some railway tracks. Little more than a shed, the
structure still has a neatly painted sign on it which reads 'Starport'.
'They built it for us. Well, the tracks ran nearby anyway, and they wanted to
do something to show us they appreciate us being here. Don't worry about those
cracks in the structure, we had a small earthquake a few months ago, but most
of the damage was superficial. A train should be along soon that will take you
into the city, just wait here and get on, you won't need a ticket. Me, I've got
to get back to the station and work on the shuttle, we'll need _all_ the
engines working if we need to evacuate suddenly. Look, I hope you get to the
bottom of this, it's strange, but I've kind of got used to this place and I
wouldn't want to get reassigned.' With this last word she begins back down the
slope into the crater. A few minutes later the shuttle lifts off, the thrusters
giving off a heat which is only just bearable, like standing slightly too close
to a fire.
After a wait of ten minutes on a bench in the unmanned station building a steam
train arrives at the platform and slowly screeches to a halt. The driver
invites the characters to ride with him in the engine, or alternatively seats
in the carriages can be taken. The journey to the city takes twenty minutes and
is uneventful.

The characters are met at the station by state security officers, who wear deep
blue uniforms and carry revolvers as sidearms. They look relieved to see the
characters, and explain that they would be grateful if the party would inspect
the security arrangements around the home of the acting head of state (his two
predecessors having been assassinated too recently for the government to affirm
his succession). The security officers drive the players to a large house on
the edge of town.

Shutting up for the night

The house has three stories and is surrounded on all sides by ten metres of
lawn. A few patches of bare earth show where bushes and other cover have been
recently uprooted. A ten foot high brick wall topped with razor wire surrounds
the building. The party is greeted at the gate by a senior security officer who
greets them warmly before addressing them with respect to the situation:
'As you can see, we've tightened up security around the house since this
started happening, but of course you'll want to see that for yourself. We have
done everything possible, it would be enough to stop any man but I still reckon
it won't be enough to deal with what we're facing here, a ghost, a curse, call
it what you will, it's something more than we can understand.'
He than leads the party off to inspect the premises. The following details can
be related as requested:
-The Head of State sleeps in a bedroom on the third floor. There are no
drainpipes or similar aids to climbing the wall, which is smooth stone. A pair
of guards are stationed at the bottom of the wall, underneath the window.
-The other entrance to the bedroom is from the top floor hallway. There are a
further two guards watching the bedroom.
-During the day the premier is accompanied by two bodyguards. The security
during the day seems to be far less tight than that at night. As the other
killings were at night, and as the security men genuinely believe that they are
dealing with the supernatural, they expect the greatest danger to come in the
dark.
- Four security guards surround the house, one watching each side, and a
further four patrol round the outside of the house's walls.

The players should be able to suggest some security improvements eg. better
lighting, more guards, patrol route alterations, even some kind of decoy in the
main bedroom. Despite all this however, the events of the night are largely
unavoidable...

The party are likely to be tired and will be offered accommodation in the house
for the night. Some players may alternatively wish to help with the night
watch, this poses few problems unless the characters involved have very high
observation assets and advanced sensor equipment or cyberware. Even if they do
choose to stay up, fatigue, and the assassin's unusual ability to detect
cyberware and avoid those who carry it should ensure that the players will have
little chance of having any effect on the night's events, as they are extremely
unlikely to have any idea of what they are facing.

Another assassination

A few hours after sunrise, after a quiet night without any disturbances, the
characters will be woken by a scream coming from a bedroom on the top floor of
the house. Characters rushing to find out what has happened will find a shocked
maid standing over a dropped tray of breakfast inside the door of the
President's room. The President lies in bed, but a large red stain spreading
across the sheets indicates that despite all the precautions taken, the
assassin has struck again. Yet the guards stationed at the only two entrances
to the room saw nothing all night.

Post Mortem
The five wounds to the President are of an unusual nature. On first inspection
(Average:Medical or Average:Education for characters with military experience)
the wounds are consistent with large calibre gunshot wounds. However, despite
showing none of the burning typical of laser or high energy weapons, the wounds
have no physical bullets inside (Average:Medical for a character to determine
this, or if there is no medic in the party then a doctor will arrive within a
hour). The wound depth is also unusually shallow considering the probable size
of the round, although the wounds are certainly deep enough to be fatal. Closer
inspection of the wounds (Difficult:Medical) will reveal an unusual degree of
bacterial infection of the wounds (this would be missed by a visiting doctor).
The staff of the house need no convincing that the murder is supernatural, the
silence, the apparent invisibility of the assassin and the missing bullets all
convincing them beyond doubt, as well as creating some doubts in the minds of
the party as to whether they are facing an enemy agent or a ghost. The
household are all in shock and seem far less welcoming to the characters than
they had the day before, they are all talking to each other about the 'hundred
year curse' in whispers.

There are several important pieces of evidence around the house. For each clue,
relevant skills are listed, along with task difficulties which are dependent on
the declared area of search. In addition to this, successful Investigation
rolls could help uncover clues which have been missed.

Bedroom - Difficult:Observation
Bedroom window - Average:Observation
In the corner of the window of the bedroom there is a small hole in the glass.
A circle about three centimetres across has been cut cleanly from the glass.
Partially covered by a curtain, the hole is hard to see. Formidable:Observation
- Glass dust on the inside of the window shows that it was cut from outside.

Average:Observation
The direction of the gunshot wounds on the victim indicates that they were shot
from the general direction of the closed window. Careful measurement and
calculation (Difficult:Investigation) could link the wounds to the hole in the
window.

Garden - Formidable:Observation
The razor wire across the top of the wall has been very slightly flattened in
one section. There is no sign of any blood or cloth on the wire.

Garden - Formidable:Observation
Leading across one patch of bare earth are a set of particularly distinct
footprints. The footprints indicate a normal size foot, but the depth of the
footprints is about five centimetres compared to the footprints left by the
characters which are at most two or three centimetres deep. The trail
disappears once the firmer turf at the edge of the flower bed is reached.

Local Bars - Difficult:Streetwise
Players may wish to investigate the possibility of an enemy agent being behind
the killings. Talking to people in bars does reveal a degree of xenophobia with
respect to foreigners, but this does not help the players track anybody down,
since in the eyes of the locals, anyone with an accent is suspicious.

Local Library - Average:Research
Looking through the history archives will reveal one particularly significant
event in relation to the events of the recent weeks. There is a record of a
similar spate of killings of senior government officials almost one hundred
years ago, shortly after fighting in the Final War reached the area. The nature
of the injuries recorded in the press clippings matches very closely with what
has been observed here. The killer was never apprehended and since then has
acquired a semi-mythical status, in the same way as the Terran serial killer
'Jack the Ripper'. During the Final war, the planet was not involved in the
fighting in any significant way, lacking any starport, although considerable
fleet traffic passed through the system, using it as a refuelling stop. The
investigation into the murders was curtailed by a small nuclear explosion near
to the city, which caused considerable damage and confusion.

Referees

So what exactly is going on? The cause of these events can be traced back to
1116. During the Final War a small robotics company developed a variety of
assassin robots, for sale to any faction willing to put up the credits. As part
of the testing and evaluation of the robots a small military vessel was used to
deliver prototype units to worlds which were for whatever reason insulated from
the interstellar community. On these worlds the company could carry out
'testing' without danger of repercussions from any faction. On this world
however, after the test had been completed, as the courier made ready to depart
it was detected by a cruiser passing through the system. Refusing to
acknowledge the cruiser's communications and operating without a transponder,
the courier was assumed to be an enemy vessel and the cruiser fired on it from
orbit. The missile used was not intended for atmospheric operations and in the
terminal phase of its flight towards the courier, high winds caused the flight
computer to lock up as it tried to correct for every gust. The missile impacted
a few hundred meters from the courier, causing it little damage, but flipping
it onto its side, and burying it under several meters of the material that was
thrown up from the explosion. The efforts of the crew to free themselves were
futile, the airlock was buried, and the det-laser missiles carried by the
courier offered no way to cut themselves free. The crew put themselves into the
emergency low berths to wait for the rescue party from the company. Meanwhile
the company headquarters, containing all records of the mission, had been
destroyed in fighting, and so the rescue party never came.
More recently, an earthquake uncovered the airlock, which now lies at the
bottom of a three-meter deep crack in the ground in the middle of a small
forest. The A(P)-11 robot had remained on standby for years, powered by a
trickle of electricity from the fusion plant. When the earthquake hit the
tremor shook a loose power connection to the robot, temporarily disconnecting
the electricity which the robot was using to preserve its internal settings.
This resulted in the robot resetting itself. It now believes that the original
'testing' never took place, and a month before the players arrived, it resumed
its original programming.
Programmed with exceptional stealth abilities, and with sensors and electronics
subsystems which aid in avoiding detection, the robot is almost invisible when
involved in a planned execution. It is only when it is forced to improvise that
there is any possibility of detection. Unfortunately, the patrols which were
organised to protect the president were nothing unconventional, so the robot
had little trouble in using its grapple to climb undetected up to the roof,
matching the texture of the wall, and then lowering itself down to the
president's window where it used a silenced weapon for the assassination.

He doesn't know his own strength

During the players' investigations they will be approached by a flustered
looking doctor, accompanied by two security guards. The doctor talks rapidly,
turning slightly red as he does so:
'I'm very sorry to interrupt you, I'm sure you have other things to attend to,
but I wonder if I could possibly request your assistance, just for a few hours,
I wouldn't ask, only, well, there has been something of an incident at a local
school. I've never seen anything like it, but perhaps you may know this
situation better. This really is a matter of urgency, please come with us to
the hospital.' He pauses to catch breath, before launching into another
monologue 'But of course, you don't know what has happened. Well, it seems that
one of the older boys at a local school has somehow got hold of one of your
weapons, or something like it, and has shot one of the younger pupils. He
really is in a very bad way and I fear we can do little more for him, worse
yet, this other boy has run off, and nobody knows who he is. This boy is the
only witness and we need your help to save him.'
[What has happened here is not the fault of the players or any of the station
staff. The weapon, an old laser carbine, was found by the older boy, Hoyt Adaki
inside the old courier, which he discovered while hiding in the woods to skip
school. Sadly Hoyt is a sadistic and violent individual, and when a younger
child at school annoyed him, he shot him]
The players may choose not to involve themselves in this, especially if they
feel that their lack of medical experience would make them more of a nuisance
than an advisor. This doesn't matter as there will be opportunity to follow
this lead later.

At the hospital

As the party enters the room containing Hoyt's victim, Ulex Grey, they can
smell a charred odour. The boy is apparently only eleven or twelve, and all
present will immediately notice that he has a red line burnt across his cheek,
which Average:Education or Medical can identify as a laser wound. When the
players arrive he is unconscious, and the nurses present will tell the players
he has been that way since he arrived in hospital. An Average:Medical
(Diagnosis) roll will indicate that the laser wounds to his torso have damaged
his heart, and although cauterisation from the heat has prevented much of the
bleeding, his pulse is becoming rapidly more erratic, and will likely suffer
heart failure within a few hours. Failure on the diagnosis will provide the
information above, but will make all medical tasks one level harder.
Catastrophic failure in diagnosis will suggest that the damage is less severe
than it actually is. This makes all further tasks two levels harder, and the
players may wrongly decide to leave the child alone. There are two major
options for treatment

- The child could be treated in the hospital. The operation is
Difficult:Medical (Surgery) due to the primitive equipment available. On
success, the child regains consciousness for a few hours before slipping back
into a terminal coma. This time will allow gentle questioning, revealing the
identity of his attacker. On Critical Success the child will eventually make a
full recovery, making the characters involved into minor local heroes. Failure
indicates that nothing the characters try to save him is successful.
- The medbay on the space station is better equipped to deal with these
injuries. It will take 1D6 hours for the lander to arrive after it has been
requested, and then a further hour to return to the station. Keeping Ulex alive
until he can be taken to the station is determined by the success of an
Average:Medical (Trauma Aid) task. Success gives him 1D6+1 hours to live.
Critical success gives him 1D6+5 hours to live and failure (or catastrophic
failure) 1D6-2. Once he reaches the medbay, the surgery task becomes
Average:Medical (surgery), with effects of success as above.

If the players are successful in obtaining the name of his attacker, then they
can cross-reference it with school records to find the boy's home address. If
they do this quickly (only possible if they operated in the hospital), then
they could intercept Hoyt before his amateur bank robbery. In this case it may
be easier to apprehend him and with less danger to civilians than at the scene
of the robbery. If the players choose this option, then I leave it up to you to
determine the course of events, bearing in mind that ideally the players should
subdue Hoyt without injury.

The robbery

While the party is passing through one of the commercial districts of the city,
they will be blocked on one street by a security cordon across the road. A
dozen national security men are crouched behind trees and bushes opposite a
bank. On the steps leading up to the bank doors a security officer lies holding
his chest, obviously in considerable pain. Inside Hoyt is holding six terrified
bank workers hostage. Although hopelessly amateur in his execution of the
robbery, Hoyt's paranoia has made it too risky for security to try anything,
one man who tried to enter the building was shot down as he tried to climb the
stairs.

Hoyt, Experienced NPC, Assets:Melee (Unarmed), Laser pistol 6, Observation 6.
Armed with a TL-13 CLC laser carbine (4 rounds remaining)

In this situation the players have several objectives -
1. To free the hostages
2. To try to rescue the man on the steps. (This must be done very quickly, and
the man must be operated on in a local hospital, Formidable:Medical (Surgery)
to save him)
3. To capture Hoyt alive, to find out where he acquired the weapon.

The hostages are being held in the foyer of the bank, and can be seen through
the windows. Hoyt is staying away from the windows, and reflections make it
hard to see where he is, although NAS or similar high tech sensors could detect
him. He is standing in a position where he can see the front steps, but little
beyond that.

The party does have several things which will help them apprehend him.
- He doesn't know that the ammunition in the carbine is limited.
- The bank has a back entrance which could be used to mount a surprise attack,
unfortunately, only the bank manager has the keys and he is one of the
hostages. It is a difficult:Intrusion task to break in, and either a
distraction or a difficult:Stealth roll will also be necessary to hide the
noise.
- One of the bankers was eating out at a restaurant and has just returned. He
can provide the players with information about the layout of the bank.

Unless the players use obviously excessive force (fusion rifles, HE grenades
etc) Hoyt will be captured and it will be possible to interrogate him, and find
out the location of the buried starship.

Digging up the past.
The party can take the train back to the Starport station. On arrival, they can
see the forest described by Hoyt begins about a hundred meters from the edge of
the crater.
It takes about a hours of searching through the undergrowth, which seems to
consist entirely of a thorny scarlet creepers, to find the entrance to the
ship. The ground has cracked open leaving a gap which is a meter wide and about
five meters long. It slopes downwards at about a forty five degree angle, and
about four meters down, a smooth metallic surface can be seen. The airlock is
at one end of the fissure, half obstructed by the earth. The airlock is jammed
open, some rocks having fallen into the track which the airlock door slides on.
It is a tight fit to get through the airlock, but once inside, it is clear that
little dirt has fallen into the vessel.

The airlock opens onto the main living area of the ship. The interior feels
extremely claustrophobic. The lighting is provided by small low power emergency
lights in the ceiling, about half of the lights are broken, burnt out after
years of use. Although sufficient to see by, the lighting takes a while to
adjust to after the bright daylight outside, and the irregular arrangement
casts strange shadows across the walls.
A table fills most of the room and a couple of plastic cups lie on the floor,
as do the dried remains of a tall plant, its pot knocked onto its side,
spilling soil across the tight woven carpet. A narrow corridor leads towards
the front of the ship and the bridge, and a similar corridor leads backwards to
the hold and engineering sections.
Engine room. The engineering components of the ship are contained within a
single room, but blast screens divide up the compartment, and there are
emergency bulkheads which can close off damaged sections. There is a low
humming noise from the main reactor, which is operating on a trickle of fuel
from the jump tankage, the much smaller reactor fuel tanks having been drained
decades ago.
Hold. The small hold contains a pair of emergency low berths. Each contains
four people. The display on the side of the freezers indicates that the crew
members inside are still alive, although the power plant will need to be
brought back up to a higher output to power the revival process. Also in the
hold is a tall cabinet with the impression of a heavily built humanoid. A
socket in the impression corresponds to the small of the back. Easy:Robotics
test to determine that this is a storage unit for a humanoid robot. Further
reinforced piping leads from the cabinet to an unmarked tank a few meters away.
The tank contains hydrocarbon distillates, the top can be opened to discover
this, however the mixture of fuel vapour and air at the top of the tank could
pose an explosive danger if there are any sources of ignition nearby.
The people in the low berths will probably pose a moral dilemma for the
players. By the time the characters will have been able to bring the power
plant and main computers on-line to revive them, they will almost certainly
have recovered log entries from the crew's personal quarters which will
describe the nature of the mission they were involved in. Should the players
revive them? They are murderers with a corporate morality which belongs in the
past, but at the same time their knowledge and skills could be put to great
use.
Quarters. The corridor leading from the main living area forwards to the bridge
has doors to crew cabins on the left and the right. In most rooms a personal
hand computer can be located easily, which will describe the mission of the
courier and the events which lead to it being buried. In addition, the
engineer's hand computer contains performance and technical specifications of
the A(P)-11. The quarters are fairly tidy, a common feature of all being a lack
of any great number of personal effects, only one or two souvenirs, an unusual
shell in one, an ornately crafted pen in another, a painting of a sunset over a
city of lights in the captain's room.

In the future watch out for 'The Times are Changing', my take on the Empress
Wave.
--
Brendan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 22:08:37 EST
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: NEW? TRAVELLER
Message-ID: <199603090407.VAA17992@usr3.primenet.com>

New, Traveller? D___ not again?!
Every time, I buy over $50 of traveller stuff, the rules change. Well, they're
not fooling me this time! This time $50 is my limit. Hopefully the design system
will be compatable with New Era. I would like to see a more modular design
system. I.E. a tech 12: 560mw power plant; 1280tons; 20dtons. Instead of a
543.6mw power plant.
The 543.6mw power plant would problely be nearly double the cost because of the
lack of standard componates.

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 620
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 621

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Imperium Games' Traveller Boardgames on Computer by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
  2) The New Traveller Rules by David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
  3) Re: TRAVELLER digest 620 by anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  4) Traveller Jump Drives by aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 20:04:29 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Imperium Games' Traveller Boardgames on Computer
Message-ID: <01BB0DF3.A586A7A0@ppp069.on.rim.or.jp>

I sent this to Imperium Games the other day.  I'm waiting for a =
response.  I thought maybe you might be interested in seeing what I =
wrote.
-Armand=20

Dear Imperuim Games,
Congratulations on your new role in Traveller!  I wish you success.  I =
plan to buy all of the Traveller products you produce.
I have a request.  As you and Far Frontier Games seem to be planning to =
release some of Traveller on CD-ROM (a wonderful idea!), I would like to =
strongly suggest that you develop computer game versions of all the =
Traveller boardgames you are planning.
I enjoyed games like Fifth Frontier War and Brilliant Lances, but I and =
my players would have gotten much more out of them if I could play them =
on my computer (Windows 95 PC).  We would have played the games much =
more often.  As it is, it seems that I only bought these games for their =
value as rule supplements to the role-playing game.
Perhaps there are many role-players who also enjoy complex tabletop =
wargames, but my players and I find them to be unweildy.  The large =
space required to set them up, the numerous counters to keep track of, =
and the routine steps involved in each turn could best be handled by a =
computer.  One more problem these conventional boardgames have is that =
they aren't usually much fun solitaire.  I would like it very much if =
these games could be played against the computer.  In addition, the =
computer could be used to take the positions in the game that there are =
not enough human players available for.
By releasing computerized versions of your new boardgames, you would =
also be able to get computer wargame enthusiasts into Traveller.  A =
crossover into this field of gaming seems to be the type of thing you =
are aiming for with your efforts to make a Traveller collectable card =
game.  I am excited about the idea of Traveller computerized boardgames. =
 I hope you share my enthusiasm and produce them.

Armand Suarez
Loyal Traveller fan and consumer since 1981
suarez@on.rim.or.jp


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:13:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (Traveller Mailing List)
Subject: The New Traveller Rules
Message-ID: <199603091313.NAA00297@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>

Whilst, I am interested in the new set of rules and the setting (It sounds
similar to my TNE RC Settings in my view). I am a little nervous about the
throwing out of all the all canon stuff. I hope the location of the planets
and Stars remains that same. (I am not that worried about the UPP, just the
locations). That the behaviour and the outlook of the major aliens does not
change to greatly. I know that Zhodani changed over time, but they are still
Zhodani.

All in all it looks a good plan for the future and should give Traveller a
kick start. I will jsut continue playing in the New Era until it arrives
England, and then consider moving access (I will more than likely buy the
rules anyway, to add to the rest of the rule books I have)

Dave

--
/*-------------------------------------------------------------*\
| dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk : David Mark Johnson            |
| The future's so bright, I gotto wear shades                   |
\*-------------------------------------------------------------*/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 10:53:28 -0900
From: anwfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 620
Message-ID: <v01530504ad67917e52f2@[137.229.100.64]>

>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 22:08:37 EST
>From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: NEW? TRAVELLER
>Message-ID: <199603090407.VAA17992@usr3.primenet.com>
>
>New, Traveller? D___ not again?!
>Every time, I buy over $50 of traveller stuff, the rules change. Well, they're
>not fooling me this time! This time $50 is my limit. Hopefully the design
>system
>will be compatable with New Era. I would like to see a more modular design
>system. I.E. a tech 12: 560mw power plant; 1280tons; 20dtons. Instead of a
>543.6mw power plant.
>The 543.6mw power plant would problely be nearly double the cost because of the
>lack of standard componates.
>

Design system compatible With TNE? I doubt it; greg porter tends to be much
more realistically minded than GDW was. Invest in a scientific calculator,
folks.
Just take a look at 3g3; it's easy to use, easy to follow, but you MUST
have a SciCalc to do it.


-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:                  ANWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
Phi Alpha Theta at UAA: HTTP://orion.alaska.edu/~abpat/index.html



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 23:13:22 -0700
From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
To: gurpsnet-l@io.com, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller Jump Drives
Message-ID: <199603100613.XAA14583@scratchy.itsnet.com>

According to FFS jump fuel is used for coolant as well as displacement Mass.
if I were to use this in a camppain, what would my players think of to try
and use less fuel?



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 621
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 622

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Greg Porter and TRAVELLER by 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
  2) FFS by aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
  3) Re: FFS by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  4) Added counters for BR and BL? by Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
  5) Imperium Games' email address by "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
  6) by gdw.support@genie.com
  7) Re: FFS by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  8) From usenet, for your information by "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 05:19:38 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Greg Porter and TRAVELLER
Message-ID: <199603101019.FAA04110@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

    Greg specifically stated that because the design rules in Traveller were
so much simpler than in other SF games, things would be easier to design. I
think he's going to give use something along the lines of High Guard in
complexity, with perhaps optional design rules later on that go up to
FF&S-level detail. 3G3 was designed  primarily for Greg's own TimeLords
system, which by his own admission is a much more "realistic" game than most.


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:44:34 -0700
From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: FFS
Message-ID: <199603102044.NAA21954@scratchy.itsnet.com>

A megajoule is one megawatt for one second.  Correct?



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 16:40:06 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: FFS
Message-ID: <9603102340.AA10718@Rt66.com>


> A megajoule is one megawatt for one second.  Correct?

A MW is a MJ/s.

So, yes :-)

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 21:38:53 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Added counters for BR and BL?
Message-ID: <9603110138.AA15453@ lrmi.com>

There is a home page for a game called full thrust which includes some
player produced counter sheets for ships from Babylon 5 and Star Wars.  They
look to me like, with a little jigging and poking, they would do OK on a BR
or BL board (and the bab5 ships are in fantastic colour.  URL is

http://www.csd.uwm.edu/~cthulhu/thrust.html

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 18:50:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, hiwg-list@fwe.com
Subject: Imperium Games' email address
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9603101845.A1543-0100000@well>

My mail to ImperGames@aol.com bounced -- "not a known user".  Have others
had the same problem?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 03:08:00 UTC 0000
From: gdw.support@genie.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <199603110320.AA135864444@relay1.geis.com>

Re: Movie

I'm afraid the only mention of a movie in the AOL conference was when I
asked (tongue firmly in cheek) if it was true that Jennifer Anniston
had declined a role in the movie. I intended this as a joke, and I thought
I had made that abundantly clear...

      Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 21:40:05 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: FFS
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960311034005.0069ef54@mail.usa.net>

At 03:39 pm 3/10/96 -0500, you wrote:
>A megajoule is one megawatt for one second.  Correct?

        Or 2 MW for 1/2 second, or 1/2 MW for 2 seconds ... a megawatt is
actually defined as a rate of energy equal to one megajoule per second ...
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 23:42:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM, hiwg-list@fwe.com
Subject: From usenet, for your information
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9603102330.A4969-0100000@well>

> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
> Subject: RE: Traveller Groups
> Date: 9 Mar 1996 16:09:52 GMT

> I also have a web page up for Traveller
> http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/trav2.html

> I am going to add a listing of Coventions that will have traveller games
> and some Striker stuff also

> Captain Kevin Walsh
> ISMV Bold Venture
> Survivor of the first Official Traveller Tournament
> Head Guard of the Paradise Prison Planet

--Glenn




------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 622
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 623

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Using Less Jump Fuel by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
  2) Re: Imperium Games' email address by Kerry Harrison <kerry@io.com>
  3) A TRAVELLER Movie? by Susan Marie Shock <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
  4) IMperium Games REAL address by Susan Marie Shock <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:09:19 -0600 (CST)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Using Less Jump Fuel
Message-ID: <199603112009.OAA24030@ConnectI.com>

>According to FFS jump fuel is used for coolant as well as displacement Mass.
>if I were to use this in a camppain, what would my players think of to try
>and use less fuel?

Weeeeellll, the simple answer is thus...

The H fuel is lyquified to allow for rapid heating for use as coolant.  The
J Drive alread runs a fine tollerance for heat usage.  If they try and use a
little less (say 1%) then OK, roll for some kind of minor heat related
damage to the drive subsystem, or other engineeting component.  The amount
of heat generated must be EXTREME if natural dissapation in deep space can't
control it.  Therefore, a slight decrease in coolant would result in heat
damage.  For small amounts (less than say 5% of fuel normally used) make
damage only superficial (melted wires, Life Support overloads, etc.)
However, if the amount exceeds that arbitrary amount, then I would start
rolling for hits using BL, perhaps detanating fuel etc.  The end result
would be that you should in evnery way discourage players from attempting
this.  The real reason for the fuel usage was to place limits on ship
efficiency, and these need to be enforced.

BTW: as I was writing this, I could not think of how else the H could be
used by Jump Drives.  You probably couldn't expend it as fuel without
detonating or buring it.  However, it could be used for two reasons.  First
the J_drive could genereate LOTS of heat as a byproduct of use (as stated in
rules), and thus it is used as coolant.  The other option would be for a
portion of the H to be used as displacement mass to offset the rip in the
universe made by a J-drive, etc.  Well, what do ya'll think?

DCB
James the Intelligent Plains Barbarian (jipb@connecti.com)
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above should not be interperted as
doctrine, dogma, or anything else.  However, if you really like
it then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:23:01 -0600
From: Kerry Harrison <kerry@io.com>
To: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games' email address
Message-ID: <3144B5D5.4060@io.com>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
> My mail to ImperGames@aol.com bounced -- "not a known user".  Have others
> had the same problem?

Could just be AOL acting weird - it does that on occasion, you could also try
KenWhitman@aol.com.

       ------------------------------------------------------------
       * Kerry Harrison | kerry@io.com | http://www.io.com/~kerry *
       ------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 11 Mar 96 21:17:43 EST
From: Susan Marie Shock <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: A TRAVELLER Movie?
Message-ID:   <960311.212237.EST.34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

Loren,
  An excerpt from the transcript I have of the AOL discussion:

"WCook616: Any plans for media releases (movies or TV as opposed to comics)?"
"Wcook616: No specifics, please"
"ImperGame: Good Guessing WCOOK:D"

   However, it is VERY likely that there is in fact no TV or movie deal in the
works. That was jotted down in my notes, but I would suspect it to be incorrect
and, as it is not my desire to spread disinformation, I urge you all to ignore
it.
                                          Allen Shock
                         (once again stealing his wife's account)

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 11 Mar 96 21:23:21 EST
From: Susan Marie Shock <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: IMperium Games REAL address
Message-ID:   <960311.212511.EST.34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

Well, I've really made of mess of things lately, haven't I? The correct address
 for reaching Ken Whitman is ImperGame@aol.com, not ImperGameS. Sorry about tha
t.
         a rather red faced Allen Shock
   (posting illicitly from his wife's account).

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 623
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 624

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Population multiplier by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  2) Re: Using Less Jump Fuel. by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  3) RE: Using Less Jump Fuel. by That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
  4) Reflections from a Traveller fan by StarWolf <myhre@sn.no>
  5) Re: Population multiplier by Andrew Wardell <andrew.wardell@the-spa.com>
  6) Dawn Clipper by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  7) Re: TRAVELLER digest 623 by aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
  8) Re: Population multiplier by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  9) Re: jump drives and where is the @&%^* lift by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
 10) The Kid is Back! by mickb@thehub.com.au (Mick Bailey)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:15:59 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Population multiplier
Message-ID: <199603121515.JAA27934@osh1.datasync.com>

I remember reading once about what the population multiplier was used for,
but now I can't find the reference.  does anyone know what the Pop Mult is for?


Paul  {tiger}

"So I hit him!" - TBWSK



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:36:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Using Less Jump Fuel.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960312102522.6533A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.

I never bought the cooling concept for jump fuel.  Instead, I see jump
fuel as a sort of reaction mass that is sent into jump space "ahead" of
the ship to initially open up a gate between n-space and j-space.  My view
of jump (and this is of course a bunch of pseudo-science hand-waving) is
that it involves putting a bunch of normal matter into an area with
distinctly alien physics.  The bizarre physics of jump space resist
intrusion by normal matter, but hydrogen forms a kind of interface due to
its relative simplicity (why? who knows?).  Thus, the hydrogen "beats a
path"  into j-space for the ship, which would otherwise be
catastrophically rebuffed.

This is also the reason for the 100 ton limit (in CT/MT, that is).  The
physics of jump space tend to intrude on small masses and tear them apart.
A large enough mass establishes a "calm spot" in jump space which the
j-physics are slow to intrude upon.  Even at this, though, I picture
small ships as being "tossed about" in jump space, resulting in an
uncomfortable ride.

Thus, using less fuel would be more likely to result in a misjump.
Another possibility is using something different as "reaction mass".  The
more complex the structure, the worse it works.  Using water is possible
but very risky.  Using anything more complex is catastrophic.

Just some thoughts....
Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca),   <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.    <0>
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.    <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html  <0>


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:12:51 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Using Less Jump Fuel.
Message-ID: <199603121812.NAA14247@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10: 35:15 EST
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:12:51 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Hi All.
:
: I never bought the cooling concept for jump fuel.  Instead, I see jump
: fuel as a sort of reaction mass that is sent into jump space "ahead" of

Well, the cooling concept is something that is only in TNE.  I think
Nilsen was looking for something other than a one-time usage of jump
fuel.  Also, this allowed the engineer to be doing something in
jumpspace other than polishing his boots or assorted pieces of
chrome.

Your ideas about punching a hole are nice, however, if we look at
what's been published, the reason for the massive amounts of fuel is
that we need to charge the j-drive which basically warps space around
the ship and throws it into j-space.  Under CT/MT it was handled
basically the same.  Plot jump, use up all fuel, enter j-space,
re-emerge into n-space.  In CT, all the energy was stored in the
lanthanum coils in the j-drive, in MT, they were zuchai crystals and
then this energy was dumped to the lanthanum grid on the hull of the
ship.

: This is also the reason for the 100 ton limit (in CT/MT, that is).  The
: physics of jump space tend to intrude on small masses and tear them apart.
: A large enough mass establishes a "calm spot" in jump space which the
: j-physics are slow to intrude upon.  Even at this, though, I picture
: small ships as being "tossed about" in jump space, resulting in an
: uncomfortable ride.

However, reading the little sidebars about j-space, it's usually a
quiet ride.  In fact, you usually can't even tell that you've
misjumped until your time-table gets all messed up or someone begins
to suffer from jump-sickness.

: Thus, using less fuel would be more likely to result in a misjump.
: Another possibility is using something different as "reaction mass".  The
: more complex the structure, the worse it works.  Using water is possible
: but very risky.  Using anything more complex is catastrophic.

If you use less fuel, then the ship will misjump.  That's because it
depends on the power being outputted by the j-drive to correctly
figure out its jump solution.  However, for the j-drive to provide
this power, it needs to use the necessary amount of fuel.  As for
using water, it shouldn't matter what fuel is being used under CT/MT.
The j-drive would just suffer from the same conditions and penalties
as any other drive system using unrefined fuel.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:48:20 -0800
From: StarWolf <myhre@sn.no>
To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@MPGN.COM>, hiwg-list@fwe.com
Subject: Reflections from a Traveller fan
Message-ID: <31466FB4.556A@sn.no>

My outburst in the last posting probably summed it all up, but now that
my head has cooled down a bit. At least slightly under the point of
boiling, I feel like I have to put some more (not so) well thought
through thoughts (eh?).

Traveller are now passing into its fourth incarnation, and will it be
successful? Dunno, but I know that a lot of fans there will be pretty
tired of shelling out dough for a product they have seen a new wrappping
for several times now.

For many there is a lot of work that goes down the drain, like the
starship construction spreadsheet I have created. And when it comes to
HIWG 90% of the work there will be wasted as we move back in time.
Virtually nothing has been generated for Imperial year 0.

Will we find any frontiers in Traveller the Fourth Generation (TFG)?
Probably not if the setting will be put in Sylea of Core Sector. Vilani
spanned much of this space before the Rule of Man took over. And what of
the Spinward campaigns? We got the Darrians and Sword Worlds, but not
much else. Vargr Hasn't reached Gvurrdon. Where the Zhodani are, I don't
know.

Will we techies get the chance of generating all the funny gadgets for
starships, vehicles, robots and so on. Probably not. And if we are really
unlucky we will get a generic starship generation sequence. I remember
MT. A fighter there looked pretty much like any other fighter after a
while. Starships had more room for variance, but not much. After
designing more 300 pieces I got bored, and moved on to vehicles which was
quite good. And if we are going the High Guard way, we get a tub with a
laser or a meson gun.

What I try to say is that they (Imperial Games [IG]) put a lot of effort
into re-inventing the wheel. If Gvurrdon setting aren't the fad, I don't
really care. What I do care about is consistent rules, and my wallet. TNE
ruleset had almost everything. TNE's failure was mainly its military
setting and unclear aim of the game. It apparently had one, but what. And
some of the sourcebooks tried to be funny, but wasn't. The humor was lost
to me.

The modules and campaigns didn't have much anout re-contact, and
re-exploration. But sentered around military operations like plunder and
pillage.

Another failure was the copying from T2K2. All the outdoors rules was
from T2K2. Nothing about the interstellar society, something MT had to an
extent.

I do hope that they make a design rulesett before they make equipment,
and not the other way around. I hate to find that I can't make the nifty
cross country speeder with the plasma gun without re-writing the rules,
or go for that puny pea shooter. We who play SF roleplaying games tend to
be more techie oriented that other roleplayers, and thus demand
concistent construction rules for almost anything. There is fine with
pre-defined things like lasers, missiles, hull sizes and so on, but for
us who want to make that rapid firing plasma cannon need to be catered
for so that other players may gain on our creativity without shelling out
20 quids for an equipment guide exclusively for weapons, when they can be
had for free (almost). The problem with this is that the IG won't earn
any money at all, except for the rulebook with all the construction
rules.


--
------------+-----------------+--------------------------------------
Roger Myhre |myhre@sn.no      |http://www.sn.no/~myhre/
Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins"
are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:26:01 -0500
From: Andrew Wardell <andrew.wardell@the-spa.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Population multiplier
Message-ID: <199603122226.RAA14991@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

At 10:11 AM 3/12/96 -0500, Paul Walker wrote:
>I remember reading once about what the population multiplier was used for,
>but now I can't find the reference.  does anyone know what the Pop Mult is for?
>
>
>Paul  {tiger}
IIRC, The population multiplier is used to break down the UWP population
code, by 10s.  For example, if the UPP population digit were 6 (millions:
Min Population: 1,000,000, Max Population: 9,999,999), a population
multiplier of 3 would mean that the population was in the
3,000,000-3,999,999 range, 6 would be the 6,000,000-6,999,999 range, etc.


Andrew


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 17:43:51 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Dawn Clipper
Message-ID: <9603122243.AA15097@chara.gsu.edu>


  Here is a modification of the standard RC Aurora Clipper.  The
History and concept is after the technical details.  Muir gave several
helpful comments and I'd like to thank him for his help.
 Lewis

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Type I

Dawn Clipper
Displacement: 600/1080/2080Hull Armor: 20
Length: 144 metersVolume: 8400/14,000/28,000
Price: MCr519.524Target Size: M
Configuration: Open Frame USLTech Level: 12
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 17542.27/11647.4

Engineering Data
Power Plant: 2280 MW fusion power plant (50MW/HIT) 1 year duration
             57MW surplus
Jump Performance: 2 at 2080 tons 3 at 1560 tons. Fuel use is 4368 m^3
G-rating: 2
G-Turns: Onboard fuel of 1040 m^3 supplies 8 g turns. The Dawn
         Clipper will normally carry a 400 ton fuel module with additional
         fuel.  130 m^3 per G-turn
Maint:630

ELECTRONICS
 Computer: 1xTL 12 Mod Fb Computer (.8 MW) 2x TL 12 Mod St Computer (.4 MW)
 Commo: 300,000km radio (10 hexes, 10 MW), 1000 AU maser (.6 MW)
 Avionics: TL-10 avionics
 Sensors: PEMS fixed array 120,000km (4 hexes, .15 MW)  AEMS 300,000km
         (10 hexes, 27.5 MW)
 ECM/ECCM: EMM (8.4 MW)
 Controls: Bridge with 12 bridge stations and 26 other workstations.

ARMAMENT
None

ACCOMMODATIONS
 Life Support: Extended (1.68 MW) Gravitic Compensation (3g, 42 MW)
 Crew 47: 26 Engineers, 1 Electronics, 2 Maneuvering, 7
         maintenance, 3 Flight Crew, 6 Command, , 1 Steward, 1 Medical.
 Crew Accommodations: 26 Small Staterooms. Captain and 1st and 2nd Officers get
                     singles, all others share a room.
 Passenger Accommodations: None, unless a module is carried.
 Cargo: 1158.5 m^3 plus cargo modules. One cargo hatch
 Small Craft and Launch Facilities: External grapples (USL) for 50-ton
      Cutter, 30 ton ships boat, 2x 400ton modules 4x 100 ton modules
      1x 200ton module
  Air Locks: 6

Damage Table: Modify the Aurora Clipper Damage table.


- - ------------------------------------------------------------------


Type II (Civilian Model)

Dawn Clipper
Displacement: 600/1080/2080Hull Armor: 20
Length: 144 metersVolume: 8400/14,000/28,000
Price: MCr399.46Target Size: M
Configuration: Open Frame USLTech Level: 12
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 16809.07/10022.7

Engineering Data
Power Plant: 1190 MW fusion power plant  1 year duration 7MW surplus
Jump Performance: 2 at 2080 tons 3 at 1560 tons. Fuel use is 4368 m^3
G-rating: 1
G-Turns: Onboard fuel of 1040 m^ supplies 8 g turns. The Dawn
         Clipper will normally carry a 400 ton fuel module with additional
         fuel.  130 m^3 per G-turn
Maint:603

ELECTRONICS
 Computer: 1xTL 12 Mod Fb Computer (.8 MW) 2x TL 12 Mod St Computer (.4 MW)
 Commo: 300,000km radio (10 hexes, 10 MW), 1000 AU maser (.6 MW)
 Avionics: TL-10 avionics
 Sensors: PEMS fixed array 120,000km (4 hexes, .15 MW)  AEMS 300,000km
         (10 hexes, 27.5 MW)
 ECM/ECCM: EMM (8.4 MW)
 Controls: Bridge with 9 bridge stations and 13 other workstations.

ARMAMENT
None

ACCOMMODATIONS
 Life Support: Extended (1.68 MW) Gravitic Compensation (3g, 42 MW)
 Crew 30: 13 Engineers, 1 Electronics, 2 Maneuvering, 5
         >M==, 3 Flight Crew, 4 Command, , 1 Steward, 1 Medical.
 Crew Accommodations: 16 Small Staterooms. Captain and 1st Officer get
                     singles, all others share a room.
 Passenger Accommodations: 10 Small Staterooms, possibly more if a passenger
                          module is carried.
 Cargo: 2050 m^3 plus cargo modules. Two cargo hatchs
 Small Craft and Launch Facilities: External grapples (USL) for 50-ton
      Cutter, 30 ton ships boat, 2x 400ton modules 4x 100 ton modules
      1x 200ton module
  Air Locks: 6

Damage Table: Modify the Aurora Clipper Damage table.




This is a class of freighters based on the Aurora Clipper.  All
 of the Auroras's weaponry has been removed. The subsequent space was
filled with fuel, cargo and staterooms.  The Dawn has enough staterooms
for the entire crew so it doesn't have to carry a crew module.
Standard procedure is to carry a ship's boat for emergencies, but not
the Aurora's cutter, but the grapple is still installed.

History: Transstar understood as early as 1200 that the new RC would
produce huge amounts of trade in the future. Transstar's existing
fleet of relic ships doesn't have the carrying capacity to serve these
new markets.  Transstar would like to purchase new ships, but the RC's
shipyards are overtaxed with the burden of creating
the Aurora family of ships; the original Aurora, the Maggart, the
Lancer, the Fussiler and the Belladonna classes.  All of which share common
design features and share many parts.  The cost of opening up another
production line is prohibitive, so Transstar designed another
modification of the Aurora. This one would be for peaceful trade
inside of the RC. Originally the designers kept the Dawn a 2g ship,
but it was pointed out that the ship would be significantly cheaper
if it was restricted to 1g. The savings would be from the smaller power
plant and Heplar chamber required.  Plans for a 2g model were also
created, in case the RCN wanted to purchase Dawns, for possible
use as a non-front line ship such as fleet tanker, carrier, battle
tender or supply ship.
  The Dawns and the Aurora have the same hull, the only exterior
difference is that the Dawn doesn't have laser turrets, and the muzzle
of the Meson gun has been plated over.   The interior is slightly different,
the staterooms have been moved around a bit, and the cargo bay has been
enlarged.  The Manta was replaced by a 400 ton fuel module.  The Dawn
will be going from starport to starport  where it can purchase fuel
modules full of refined fuel.The designers removed the Aurora's weapon
systems and in its place installed more cargo, more fuel and staterooms.
These changes allowed the Dawn to be cheaper, also it allows the Dawn
to carry 1000 tons of cargo modules.  These can easily be mounted and
unmounted from the ship, Transstar can have the cargo modules preloaded
before the ship arrives in system.  An arriving ship will only have to
stay in system long enough, to unhook the existing cargo modules, install
new modules to perform and any maintenance on the jump drives.  Early
estimates, suggest that this can all be down in 3 days, rather than the
normal week.  This will save time and in the  shipping business
time is money.
    As the ships share many components with the Aurora family, the
price of these parts will come down. Also Transstar will not have to
train mechanics, engineers and pilots to operate the equipment. They
will be able to hire ex-RCN personal, who were trained on the other
members of the Aurora family.  This will save considerable training
expense.
    Also in times of War the ships can be equipped with missile and laser
modules, turning it into somewhat of a war ship.  It can be equipped
with 9 fighter modules allowing it to mount 36 Wildbat fighters,
allowing to fill in as a light carrier.  It could even be equipped
with Manticore Battle Riders, and be a light Battle Tender.  It will
never be a front line unit slugging it out with Heavy Cruisers, but
can fulfill a useful military role.
  On 254-1201 Transstar agreed to purchase the first 3 Dawn Clippers from 
Standard
Astronics on Aubaine.  One of the chief inducements to getting into
the construction queue was that Transstar agreed to pay the purchase
price up front.  This will allow Standard Astronics to construct more
slips and expand their construction sites.  Part of the purchase price
was a shipment of refined lanthanum that was stranded on Fija, from
before the Collapse.  To raise additional funds, Transstar offered
bonds secured by its fleet of relic starships.  This was an early
test of the fledgling RC markets and the optimism of RC investors.  It
was also the largest private bond offering in the Old Expanses in
70 years.  The enthusiasm of investors was furthered by the many
public statements of Transstar board members that they intended
to buy back the bonds over the course of their lifetime as funds
became available.  This reassured investors that the bonds would
continue to be tradeable at a good price.  The purchase of the Dawn
Clippers has strained Transstar's budget, reducing the amount of capital
that is available for acquisition of other assets, but in the long
run the Clippers should make a healthy profit.
Transstar's first Dawn clipper will be named for Kether Friedman,
captain of the Hokka who died when it was temporarily lost during
the collapse. (See Transstar write up for details) Subsequent Dawn Clippers
and other ships Transstar buys will be named for other people who
gave their lives in the service of the Dawn League or the Coalition.
The first Dawn Clipper should have its maiden voyage in mid 1203.

Design Notes
I took a standard Aurora and started subtracting things that I
didn't like.
8 laser turrets=> Vol= 336
3 MFDs with AEMS beam pointers
Meson gun 1000 MJ 144m length   => Vol= 1440 m^3
          5000 MJ HPG=> Vol= 250
6 Bridge stations=> Vol= 84
3 Gunner stations=> Vol= 35

And I added:
5 Staterooms=> Vol= 140
Fuel=> Vol= 1040
Cargo=> Vol= 1042.5

For the Type II
I also changed the power plant from 2280 MW to 1190 MW.
This allowed the engineering crew to be cut in half and to
eliminate several maintenance and command personal.  The extra
staterooms were not eliminated, but kept to allow passengers to be
carried. The Heplar chamber was also reduced to 1G.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:13:19 -0700
From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 623
Message-ID: <199603130013.RAA10352@scratchy.itsnet.com>


>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:09:19 -0600 (CST)
>From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Using Less Jump Fuel

>>According to FFS jump fuel is used for coolant as well as displacement Mass.
>>if I were to use this in a camppain, what would my players think of to try
>>and use less fuel?
>
>Weeeeellll, the simple answer is thus...
>
>The H fuel is lyquified to allow for rapid heating for use as coolant.  The
>J Drive alread runs a fine tollerance for heat usage.  If they try and use a
>little less (say 1%) then OK, roll for some kind of minor heat related
>damage to the drive subsystem, or other engineeting component.  The amount
>of heat generated must be EXTREME if natural dissapation in deep space can't
>control it.  Therefore, a slight decrease in coolant would result in heat
>damage.  For small amounts (less than say 5% of fuel normally used) make
>damage only superficial (melted wires, Life Support overloads, etc.)
>However, if the amount exceeds that arbitrary amount, then I would start
>rolling for hits using BL, perhaps detanating fuel etc.  The end result
>would be that you should in evnery way discourage players from attempting
>this.  The real reason for the fuel usage was to place limits on ship
>efficiency, and these need to be enforced.
I also don't want them to be able to get around without needing to use fuel
for the jumpdrive.

>
>BTW: as I was writing this, I could not think of how else the H could be
>used by Jump Drives.  You probably couldn't expend it as fuel without
>detonating or buring it.  However, it could be used for two reasons.  First
>the J_drive could genereate LOTS of heat as a byproduct of use (as stated in
>rules), and thus it is used as coolant.  The other option would be for a
>portion of the H to be used as displacement mass to offset the rip in the
>universe made by a J-drive, etc.  Well, what do ya'll think?
>
It might work I will try it.



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:26:41 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Population multiplier
Message-ID: <178@odonovan.demon.co.uk>


> I remember reading once about what the population multiplier was used for,
> but now I can't find the reference.  does anyone know what the Pop Mult is
for?
>

> Paul  {tiger}
>
(From World Builder's)

"To determine the total world population, use the formula below:
T= M x 10^p

T=total population
M=population multiplier
P=UWP population digit

To get a more detailed population figure, also determine the second and third
digits of the population figure."

--
Brendan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 22:06:57 EST
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: jump drives and where is the @&%^* lift
Message-ID: <199603130438.VAA22084@usr2.primenet.com>

Quoting: James the Intelligent Plains Barbarian (jipb@connecti.com)

Weeeeellll, the simple answer is thus...

The H fuel is lyquified to allow for rapid heating for use as coolant.  The
J Drive alread runs a fine tollerance for heat usage.  If they try and use a
little less (say 1%) then OK, roll for some kind of minor heat related
damage to the drive subsystem, or other engineeting component.  The amount
of heat generated must be EXTREME if natural dissapation in deep space can't
control it.  Therefore, a slight decrease in coolant would result in heat
damage.  For small amounts (less than say 5% of fuel normally used) make
damage only superficial (melted wires, Life Support overloads, etc.)
However, if the amount exceeds that arbitrary amount, then I would start
rolling for hits using BL, perhaps detanating fuel etc.  The end result
would be that you should in evnery way discourage players from attempting
this.  The real reason for the fuel usage was to place limits on ship
efficiency, and these need to be enforced.

BTW: as I was writing this, I could not think of how else the H could be
used by Jump Drives.  You probably couldn't expend it as fuel without
detonating or buring it.  However, it could be used for two reasons.  First
the J_drive could genereate LOTS of heat as a byproduct of use (as stated in
rules), and thus it is used as coolant.  The other option would be for a
portion of the H to be used as displacement mass to offset the rip in the
universe made by a J-drive, etc.  Well, what do ya'll think?

DCB
James the Intelligent Plains Barbarian (jipb@connecti.com)
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ust as many gamers have theories of how jump drives work. The major races will
have different types of jump drives. An Aslan jump drive will work differently
than a Hiver jump drive.

My theory, is hydrogen is used to form a jump field around the ship. Once the
field is formed, the engineer engages the finally jump sequence and the ship
jumps. The reason that jump in the gravity well are dangerous. Is that gravity
distorts the jump field.

Jump drives in traveller. are designed with a 1% overhead. IE a j-2 drive uses
3Dt on a 100Dt scout. That 1Dton overhead limits the j-drive to 100Dt's. High
jump ships should be able to lesson their time in jump space. IE a j-2 scout
will make a 1 parsec jump in 1/2 week. Also let ships make insystem jumps less
than a weeks time. Hours instead of days.

The design rules for fuel purification plants are off! They take 10x the volume
of  high guard fuel plants. My fuel plants are 10% the size and mass. But are
10x costlier and must be crewed during processing.

I design my ships by the displacement ton. this makes them easier to design
(probably build). Also, I standardize my power plant. IE, a 5,000 Dt Assault
Carrier will use a 6,000mw power plant. And a 5,000 Dt Strike Cruiser would use
2x 6,000mw power plants. Using standardized engines greatly increases the chance
that a critical engine parts will be available (Two weeks in dry dock). Or a
ship can wait for the part to be manufactured (two months, and pray that they
can read your spec sheets).

Also, I allow for access space. 1% of ship's volume. A 5,0000 Dt ship would have

50 Dt of access tunnels.

There was discussion a while back on designing ships with parallel decking, as
opposed to perpendicular decking. Although perpendicular decking would be safer.
Parallel decked ship could react faster. It is easier to run 35 meters to the
engine room. Than have to wait for the @&%^* lift.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:27:48 GMT
From: mickb@thehub.com.au (Mick Bailey)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: The Kid is Back!
Message-ID: <v01540b02ad6cb42af82a@[203.17.162.30]>

Hello Fellow Travellers,

Just a quick note to let anyone (both of you) who is interested that I'm
back on the Net, at least partially.  I've moved from Perth to Brisbane
(for all of you non-Australian's, that's about the equivalent of moving
from L.A. to say, Miami).

Anyway, I'll be spending a good deal of time wading through the archives,
but I'm sure that I'll find time to post a few new designs.

Catch You Later,

Mick Bailey
mickb@thehub.com.au

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 624
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 625

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Jump Fuel - Coolant effects? by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  2) Handouts by Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
  3) Re: Jump Fuel by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  4) Brilliant Lances and Readiness by John Lloyd <John.Lloyd@cbr.atr.com.au>
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 624 by Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
  6) Fwd: Scifi Weapons by dberry@hooked.net (Douglas E. Berry)
  7) Traveller Fan Panel at I-CON by jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
  8) Babylon 5 Role Playing Game by jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
  9) suscribe by "Hughes / Michael William (COM)" <u960306@student.canberra.edu.au>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:02:02 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Jump Fuel - Coolant effects?
Message-ID: <199603131102.WAA27829@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
>
> : Hi All.
> :
> : I never bought the cooling concept for jump fuel.  Instead, I see jump
> : fuel as a sort of reaction mass that is sent into jump space "ahead" of
>
> Well, the cooling concept is something that is only in TNE.  I think
> Nilsen was looking for something other than a one-time usage of jump
> fuel.  Also, this allowed the engineer to be doing something in
> jumpspace other than polishing his boots or assorted pieces of
> chrome.

No! It's in Megatraveller -- check out the Starship Operator's Manual! They
specifically state that the fuel is used as a coolant IIRC.

Phil McGregor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:09:43 +0100 (MET)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Handouts
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960313125237.22549F@trondviggo.nvg.unit.no>

I'm running a TNE (Old expanses) campaign with some elements that might
not be considered kosher, but it's fun. As the RC's need for intelligence
is rather extreme I made up the RCIS (RC Intelligence Service), an
intelligence service including external intelligence gathering and
internal security. Without going into details, I've used some handouts to
build up some rather... interesting relations between the PCs (RCES
operatives) and RCIS (and the bureucracy in other parts of the
organisation). The players got a funny look when they got a paper on
treating blisters, sunburns, etc., but nothing about treating gun wounds,
broken legs and similar, before going out on a hot recovery mission. Many
of the handouts I've used (and a couple I haven't used yet) can be found at
"http://www.nvg.unit.no/~sk/dok/". Much of it can be used in a lot of
relations without the need to introduce the RCIS, but most of it is in
Norwegian. (The most general ones are in English, though.) Hope someone
finds this useful. (For short: I've put some handouts available on
"http://www.nvg.unit.no/~sk/dok", a lot of it is rather weird (and in
Norwegian, but you may find it useful. (Now why didn't I say that at once?))

Preparing for flames,
Steinar Knutsen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:29:05 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Jump Fuel
Message-ID: <199603131529.JAA00709@osh1.datasync.com>

Everyone else has given their opinion of haw the Hydrogen/J-drive combo
works, so I thought I would add my input.

There are five uses for the Hydrogen.

Before Jump and after the Jump solution is calculated:

1.  A portion of the Hydrogen(about half) is used in High power Fusion
reactors to charge the zuchii(sp) crystals with a charge.

2.  Because the Power Plant in #1 is so intense, a small amount of the
Hydrogen is used to cool the plant during this initial charge. (less than 10 %)

3.  More Hydrogen (about 10%) is used to establish a "Hydrogen bubble" aroun
the Hull of the Ship.

When the zuchii crystals are charged, and before the charge dissapates, the
energy is used to "rip" a hole between n-space and j-space.  The ship &
"Hydrogen bubble" are "sucked" into the hole. The ship's existence in this
hole is precarious at best.  (Within 10 and 100 diameters the gravitational
pull on a vessel effects the ship's ability to stay in this hole.)

4.  The Fusion power plant is set to a trickle charge (10%) (doesn't need
any more coolant the initial coolant is a circular system.).  This charge
energizes the lanthium net on the hull which in turn "energizes" the
"Hydrogen bubble."

5.  The energized Hydrogen bubble prevents the Physics of J-space from
affecting the ship, however; as the Hydrogen bubbleis energized, a portion
of it is lost as energy.  This Hydrogen that is lost as energy must be
replaced or the adverse effects of J-space will eventually entrude upon the
ship.  This replace of the Hydrogen bubble uses the Final 20% of the
Hydrogen Fuel.



This process allows a few things to be clearer.

1. An engineer must moniter the trickle charge to the Lanthium net as well
as the replacement of the Hydrogen bubble during Jump.  (ie, he doesn't have
to Polish the chrome seventy times.)

2. The rules (to the best of my knowledge) can all be covered by these
guidelines.

3. Wioth a little bit of figuring, you could design a J-drive that used a
combination of Hydrogen for the bubble and Antimatter for the Power.  IMO
the Hydrogen bubble must exist to:  1. maintain the fuel limits on J-drive,
and 2. Hydrogen as the simplest element will be affected the least by J-space.


This is all speculation, and is open to correction and criticism.  The
biggest "IF" that I have with my own explanation is the percentages use for
the differing functions.


Paul  {tiger}

"So I hit him!" - TBWSK


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 12:35:00 EDT
From: John Lloyd <John.Lloyd@cbr.atr.com.au>
To: "'traveller@mpgn.com'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Brilliant Lances and Readiness
Message-ID: <31477520@smtp-gw.cbr.atr.com.au>


I am having a bit of confusion about how readiness conditions work.  The
rules refer to the Readiness Conditions table on the players aids card.
 I can't seem to find it anywhere on the card.  Does anyone have a copy
of this table?  What does the "Readiness Condition 1" and "Readiness
Condition 2" actually mean in a game?

TIA

John Lloyd
john.lloyd@cbr.atr.com.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:55:33 -0800
From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 624
Message-ID: <31478AA5.6F3A@concentric.net>

Responding to Roger Myhre:

>>Traveller are now passing into its fourth incarnation, and will it be
successful? Dunno, but I know that a lot of fans there will be pretty
tired of shelling out dough for a product they have seen a new wrappping
for several times now.<<

Maybe.  But the impetus for T4 is not the desire to sock it to Traveller
fans once again.  It is based on the fact that the game's parent company
went out of business and a new owner (old owner?) is now at the helm.
Can't blame him for wanting to make the game successful.  Apparently
some aspect of TNE made the game fail.  There was a lot of debate about
that some weeks back, and I don't want to revive all those bad feelings,
so I'll skirt the issue.  It appears, however, that Marc Miller wants to
make his own imprint on the game, not work with its failed predecessor.

>>For many there is a lot of work that goes down the drain, like the
starship construction spreadsheet I have created. And when it comes to
HIWG 90% of the work there will be wasted as we move back in time.
Virtually nothing has been generated for Imperial year 0.<<

That's the best part, for Pete's sake!  Exploring new territory.  Taking
on new challenges.  Plus, this is just the _first_ in a series of
"Milieus," Roger.  Chances are, future milieus will deal with the eras
in which you are interested.  Don't fret, my friend!

>>Will we find any frontiers in Traveller the Fourth Generation (TFG)?
Probably not if the setting will be put in Sylea of Core Sector. Vilani
spanned much of this space before the Rule of Man took over. And what of
the Spinward campaigns? We got the Darrians and Sword Worlds, but not
much else. Vargr Hasn't reached Gvurrdon. Where the Zhodani are, I don't
know.<<

I think you're being just a bit pessimistic here, Roger.  The founding
of the Spinward Marches, I gather, is at least part of the whole point
of starting at year 0.  What better frontier than the Marches
themselves?  As far as the Darrians and Sword Worlders are concerned,
they're already on the spinward frontier waiting for you.  You'll be
able to explore new perspectives if you choose to work with this milieu.
I seriously doubt that the author's intention will be centered on the
operations at Sylea.  Though the intrigue of the court of Cleon I might
be something akin to playing a CT Solomani Rim adventure.

>>Will we techies get the chance of generating all the funny gadgets for
starships, vehicles, robots and so on. Probably not. And if we are
really
unlucky we will get a generic starship generation sequence. I remember
MT. A fighter there looked pretty much like any other fighter after a
while. Starships had more room for variance, but not much. After
designing more 300 pieces I got bored, and moved on to vehicles which
was
quite good. And if we are going the High Guard way, we get a tub with a
laser or a meson gun.<<

Yes, it's true that you'll have to remake them, but word has it a new
FF&S style supplement will be coming.

As for the new rules, that remains to be seen.  We can only wait 'til
the basic rule set comes out.  I'm optimistic.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 02:26:44 GMT
From: dberry@hooked.net (Douglas E. Berry)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Fwd: Scifi Weapons
Message-ID: <199603140225.SAA12098@mom.hooked.net>

This was posted in rec.sf.science... thought some of us gearheads might find
it interesting... are you listening, Mr. Porter?

<BEGIN FORWARDED ARTICLE>

>It's *possible* that energy storage tech, and room temp superconductors
>will be up to making a "gauss rifle".
>
>But even if we stick with chemically propelled projectiles, the tech
>*is* going to improve. Better materials could make a weapon that is
>both *lighter* AND more rugged. Better powders may be available, giving
>smaller cartridges (and thus either smaller magazines or higher
>magazine capacity).
>
>Don't forget, using modern powder in something like a Sharps or other
>cartridge-based weapon of 100 years ago will likely result in it
>blowing up in your face. The stresses are higher than the poorer steels
>can handle.
>
>I rather expect that in 200 years the rifle would use some cheap, but
>common (and unreasonably strong, by our standards) composite for much
>of the weapon. The receiver and barrel still need to be either steel or
>something with similar properties. They may wind up being lighter and a
>*lot* tougher though. This will continue the long trend of rifles
>getting lighter.
>
>The powder is likely to be something that's a lot more powerful, and
>thus less will be needed, but it'll "burn" faster. It may even be
>something that'll detonate.
>
>Cartridges will be smaller or they will be caseless.
>
>Bullets won't be *too* much smaller as muzzle velocities aren't going
>to get that much higher, and you need a certain amount of momentum to
>damage the target.
>
>However, they may be a lot tougher. Expect things like tungsten cores
>unless such are outlawed. Thus, if the bullet hits a "soft target, it's
>just a bullet. If it hits a lightly armored target, the rest of the
>bullet "strips off" the tungsten dart, which penetrates the armor.
>
>Oh yeah, the gun will require even less cleaning. The bore may have a
>coating of "grown in place" diamond or the like (we *can* do this
>*now*, it's just expensive). That'll make it take some *really* poor
>treatement and some *really* nasty stuff in the powder to get much in
>the way of fouling or corrosion.

<END FORWARDED ARTICLE>


 -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
| Douglas E. Berry                              dberry@hooked.net |
|              Writer, Professional Driver, Pervert               |
|      Looking for a CDA-banned story?  Try Genesis 19:30-38      |
 -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:31:41 -0500
From: jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
To: traveller@mpgn.com.xboat@mpgn.com.gdw-beta@qrc.com.hiwg-list@fwe.com.
tne-pocket@ocf.berkeley.edu
Cc: impergame@aol.com.farfuture@aol.com.gdw-support@genie.com
Subject: Traveller Fan Panel at I-CON
Message-ID: <199603140531.AAA00929@pipe9.nyc.pipeline.com>

This will mostly be of interest to those in the Eastern US, NYC/LI area:

At I-CON (April 12-14), I will be holding a Traveller fan panel, to hash
out the good, bad, and ugly of Traveller's past, and hopes, dreams,
and suggestions for its future.

Especially welcome are discussion on "things we'd like to see."

For clarity, let me state that I am not connected to Imperium Games,
thus the reason this is a _fan_ panel. However, notes and/or a
recording of the proceedings will be forwarded to MM and Imperium Games.

If I can get the information, updates on the status of other
GDW games will be available as well.

I-CON is the East Coast's largest convention of science fact, fiction, and
fantasy. Some of this year's guests include:
Alan Dean Foster
Ethan Philips (Neelix from ST: Voyager)
Bill Mumy (Babylon 5 and Lost in Space)
Mike Stackpole
Liz Danforth (Magic: The Gathering and [classic] Traveller artist)

and lots of others.

For more info, email i-con@ic.sunysb.edu

Web Site: www.i-con.com    (remember the hyphen in i-con)


I-CON needs gamemasters! Contact Dave Kingsley (d.kingsley@genie.com)

--
John H Bogan           jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:28:56 -0500
From: jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
To: traveller@mpgn.com.xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Babylon 5 Role Playing Game
Message-ID: <199603140528.AAA00500@pipe9.nyc.pipeline.com>

This may be of interest to some people.
For reference, CEE's games include Millenium's End.


On Mar 11, 1996 16:21:18 in <rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5>,
'MIKE100000@delphi.com' wrote:

>This was grabbed from Chameleon Eclectic Entertainment's
>website ( http://skynet.bevc.blacksburg.va.us/cee/ ).
>The actual document URL is
>http://skynet.bevc.blacksburg.va.us/cee/prsrel8.txt
>
>PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>Blacksburg, Virginia
>March 4, 1996
>Chameleon Eclectic to Release Babylon 5 Roleplaying Game
>
>Chameleon Eclectic Entertainment, Inc., in association with WireFrame
>Productions, Inc., Babylonian Productions, and Warner Bros. Worldwide
>Publishing, announced today the upcoming release of The Babylon Project, a

>roleplaying game based on the groundbreaking Warner Bros. science
>fiction television program Babylon 5. The Babylon Project will be released

>this fall.
>
>Babylon 5 has an audience of almost six million gamers and science fiction

>fans. It features a richly-detailed background and an intricate, ongoing
>storyline. The roleplaying game focuses on a time period shortly before
>that detailed in the main Babylon 5 story. Players take up the roles of
>humans or aliens in the tense period following the Earth-Minbari war
>leading up to the emergence of the Shadows and the Narn-Centauri war
>detailed in the television program.
>
>"This is a really exciting project for us," said Chameleon Eclectic
>president Charles Ryan. "With a cohesive, detailed, and intricate
>background, the Babylon 5 universe has incredible gaming potential, and
>the show has an enormous following. It's probably the most
>eagerly-anticipated licensed roleplaying game ever."
>WireFrame Productions, Inc. has been awarded the roleplaying game license
>for The Babylon Project by Warner Bros. Worldwide Publishing. WireFrame
>will be creating the game and related material for co-publication with
>Chameleon Eclectic. "This is a project which is long awaited, and one that

>we're very excited about," said WireFrame president Joseph Cochran. "The
>Babylon 5 story is set in a richly detailed epic universe, borrowing from
>myth and history to create an exciting world. We're very happy to be
>working with all of the people at Warner Bros. and Babylonian
>Productions to translate this world to the roleplaying setting."
>
>The Babylon Project will launch with the release of the main game book and

>The Earthforce Sourcebook, first in a line of sourcebooks and supplements,

>in early fall 1996. These products will quickly be followed by two
>more--the Earth Colonies Sourcebook and the Game Resource Kit--before the
>end of the year. Additional sourcebooks, adventures, and supplements will
>follow.
>
>--
>rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.info | a service of ISN mars bureau
>submissions to:   b5-info@callisto.pas.rochester.edu
>contact to:   b5-info-request@callisto.pas.rochester.edu
--
John H Bogan           jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 18:59:00 +1100 (EDT)
From: "Hughes / Michael William (COM)" <u960306@student.canberra.edu.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: suscribe
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960314185735.6075D-100000@student.canberra.edu.au>

can i, please ???? join that is ???


- michael



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 625
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 626

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 625 by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  2) Babylon 5 and Traveller by Susan Marie Shock <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
  3) by csbennet@lava.net (Morgan)
  4) Grpes about Traveller by StarWolf <myhre@sn.no>
  5) Spreadsheet (ttneship.xls) Request by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
  6) Re: Readiness Conditions by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
  7) Re: Jump fuel by Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
  8) Re: Sci-Fi Weapons by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
  9) BL vs BR by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:50:42 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 625
Message-ID:  <9603141150.aa02608@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

Christopher Griffen wrote:

>Responding to Roger Myhre:
>
>>>Traveller are now passing into its fourth incarnation, and will it be...
>...for several times now.<<
>As for the new rules, that remains to be seen.  We can only wait 'til
>the basic rule set comes out.  I'm optimistic.

    While I think the background is a good idea, i'm not so
optimistic about the rules. If they really return to the MT task
system this would be a large step back. While the this system was
a great idea when it was released, due to the systematic approach
of assigning success propabilites to tasks.
    However these propabilities followed some very wierd paths,
with almost no similarity to reality(TM). First I was very impressed
by this system, but after learning the basics of statistics, I soon
decided that this system has some severe flaws. For gun combat it
was totally impractical, bacause the propability changes from
difficulty to difficulty where all but linear. The TNE system was
much better in that matter, but had the problem that the difficulty
scale of 0.5 was very grained. However it was much better than the
MT variance between 0 and about 0.9. In fact the classic traveller
approach of allways rolling (some wierd number)+ with some random
die modifiers was probably much more realistic...

Thomas Kathmann

------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 14 Mar 96 08:33:13 EST
From: Susan Marie Shock <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Babylon 5 and Traveller
Message-ID:   <960314.083834.EST.34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

The release of The Babylon Project this fall, while potentially good for SF
gamers, will make it that much harder for Traveller to re-establish itself.
The Star Wars RPG (which I love) is "space-opera" and therefore would have left
Traveller in the "hard SF" niche which isn't occupied by any real blockbuster
titles right now. Enter Babylon 5, and now Traveller has competition with name
recognition outside gaming circles.
    What this means, in my opinion, is that Imperium Games will need to work
that much harder to ensure that Traveller is of the highest possible quality
and value. From what I've heard, I believe they can do this.
                                                Allen Shock
                                               (so on and so forth)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:48:38 -1000
From: csbennet@lava.net (Morgan)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <m0txDPx-000A6gC@malasada.lava.net>


>Responding to Roger Myhre:
>
>Traveller are now passing into its fourth incarnation, and will it be
>successful? Dunno, but I know that a lot of fans there will be pretty
>tired of shelling out dough for a product they have seen a new wrappping
>for several times now.<<
>
>>Maybe.

Definitely

>>But the impetus for T4 is not the desire to sock it to Traveller
>>fans once again.  It is based on the fact that the game's parent company
>>ent out of business and a new owner (old owner?) is now at the helm.

Correct, because of the dissolution of the company and the fact that many
long time fans were put off by TNE if I were designing T4 I would aim my
target market at new customers. Try to make it as widely appealing as I
could without totally alienating the old time fans.

>>It appears, however, that Marc Miller wants to
>>make his own imprint on the game, not work with its failed predecessor.

Unfortunately, without a very savvy handling of that issue Marc will have to
deal with any and all reputations that Traveller has earned over the course
of its many years. If you let a product associate itself with the name of a
failed product, then you have to work twice as hard to make it salable.

>Virtually nothing has been generated for Imperial year 0.<<
>
>>That's the best part, for Pete's sake!  Exploring new territory.  Taking
>>on new challenges.  Plus, this is just the _first_ in a series of
>>"Milieus," Roger.  Chances are, future milieus will deal with the eras
>>in which you are interested.  Don't fret, my friend!

Also, I would like to point out that there was very little written
concerning TNE until GDW decided to push ahead of the rebellion. Personally,
as much I sentimentalize about the Imperium and all the good times I've had
over the years role-playing to it; I think it is time to forget about it. I
mean come at it from a completely new angle, revise the histories,
reorganize the starmaps, blow holes in everything we hold dear.

Why? Because over the course of its many incarnations, Traveller has had so
many tiny inconsistencies and creeping doubts casting shadows into the
"suspension of disbelief" that I for one am just plain tired of it. I think
the whole thing needs to be re-thought. I liked the introduction of
frontierism in TNE, I missed the looming immensity of a galactic
bureaucracy. I loved FF&S, but my head hurts trying to design a bullet. I'm
tired of UWP's lackings, but I like the concentration of large ammounts of
data into a compressed easy to read form. I think Traveller is the ONLY good
sci-fi role-playing game on the market, but I don't want my favorite game
becoming a mass of brittle bones clinging to the market of the past.
Traveller now competes for time in the sci-fi market with games like
Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, and Rifts. If people can get it somewhere else then
they will, especially if it has a well supported product line. T4 needs to
provide something that will appeal to the younger gamers that play these
games. Ignoring the market will only kill Traveller again.

>>Yes, it's true that you'll have to remake them, but word has it a new
>>FF&S style supplement will be coming.

It had better :^) Even if FF&S makes my head hurt, its the best thing that
came out of the GDW sweatshops since the little boxed Striker set. Hopefully
this time they will parallel develop some computer software to run the damn
thing.<G>

    Hopefully this will give people many oportunities to discuss and flame me,
                                Morgan
"We are all mad at some time or another."
    Battista Mantuanas
     Eclogues, 1500


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:44:03 -0800
From: StarWolf <myhre@sn.no>
To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Grpes about Traveller
Message-ID: <31489323.50E8@sn.no>

Responding to Christopher Griffen

>But the impetus for T4 is not the desire to sock it to Traveller
>fans once again.  It is based on the fact that the game's parent company
>went out of business and a new owner (old owner?) is now at the helm.
>Can't blame him for wanting to make the game successful.  Apparently
>some aspect of TNE made the game fail.  There was a lot of debate about
>that some weeks back, and I don't want to revive all those bad feelings,
>so I'll skirt the issue.  It appears, however, that Marc Miller wants to
>make his own imprint on the game, not work with its failed predecessor.

I don't think that TNE failed, but rather GDW. I agree that the setting
of TNE was to narrow. They tried to be funny, but wasn't. RCES was the
equivalence to Imperial Marine (almost). Most missions was military of
mature, not much exploration there at all.


>>For many there is a lot of work that goes down the drain, like thestarship 
construction spreadsheet I have created. And when it comes to
HIWG 90% of the work there will be wasted as we move back in time.
Virtually nothing has been generated for Imperial year 0.<<

>That's the best part, for Pete's sake!  Exploring new territory.

Starting at Sylea isn't new territory. The biggest difference is that
there will be more diplomatic missions rather than military missions. And
if we start at year 0, there will be almost 50 years before we are in the
Spinward Marches. The point is we know what happens historically. And it
won't bring much *new* atmosphere to Traveller. Just as TNE failed to do.


>As for the new rules, that remains to be seen.  We can only wait 'til
>the basic rule set comes out.  I'm optimistic.

And I'm broke.


--
------------+-----------------+--------------------------------------
Roger Myhre |myhre@sn.no      |http://www.sn.no/~myhre/
Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins"
are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:32:21 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Spreadsheet (ttneship.xls) Request
Message-ID: <01BB1206.FE1DF320@ppp034.on.rim.or.jp>

I downloaded an Excel spreadsheet file for designing TNE starships named
ttneship.xls.  It is also available through HIWG.  I am using Microsoft
Works version 3.0, and it reads Excel files, but not if there are any
password  encoded or locked cells.  When I try to open the starship sheet,
Works tells me there is some password encryption (or some of the sheet is
barred from being edited) and it refuses to load the spreadsheet.
If anybody who owns Excel has this sheet, please remove the password
encryption from the cells and send the sheet to me if possible.  I am very
interested in seeing and using this spreadsheet.  I tried contacting the
person who made the sheet, but I got no response.
I can receive MIME encoded files attached to e-mail.  Please e-mail it to me
directly, not to this list.  I don't think this list is MIME compatible, and
the result would be a very long message of "computer trash":  meaningless
characters that would annoy everyone.
I would be very grateful if someone could do this favor for me.
Thank you,
Armand
suarez@on.rim.or.jp


------------------------------

Date:          Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:43:17 MDT
From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Readiness Conditions
Message-ID: <31C30B0711@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>

Well, whoever wanted this.  I don't know about where it is in
Brilliant Lances but it's in the Starship combat section of TNE
rulebook.  Hope this helps.  :-)"True love is the greatest thing in the world...
Except for a nice MLT." - Miracle Max
walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:51:20 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Jump fuel
Message-ID: <199603141651.KAA17060@natasha.itlabs.umn.edu>

>Everyone else has given their opinion of haw the Hydrogen/J-drive combo
>works, so I thought I would add my input.

One more data point.  In the CT _Traveller Adventure_, an engineer makes
a comment about how disgusted he is with an engineer that caused serious
damage to a Tukera ship.  She left the liquid hydrogen fuel line open
after a jump, "an error the greenest apprentice engineer wouldn't make".
This caused low-temperature metal fatigue in important parts of the ships
drives.  So this suggests that all fuel is used to make the jump, and
virtually none after the jump is commenced.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonn0015@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Date:          Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:47:17 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Weapons
Message-ID: <E16DD6412B@daisy.le.ac.uk>

Though I may provide a flammable target, I always thought that some
of the information presented in Cyberpunk would be useful with this
type of discussion.  They use ballistic weapons (?), yet still have
limited laser-technology (though the energy storage is a bit crap)...
what you basically see is what they have done with the various
technoloes: crystaliron, electrochemically-enhanced weapons, binary
propellant, liquid propellent, etc.  Basically, it may offer a
"low-tech" reference for Traveller, and give a basis for the
evolution of some of the more "high-tech" Traveller weapons.

Just a thought.

Wibble...
               --MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

"Then you must cut down the largest tree in the forest with...
           A HERRING."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 22:54:37 EST
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: BL vs BR
Message-ID: <199603150455.VAA27673@usr4.primenet.com>

My thought Brillent Lances and Battle Rider. BL is far too detail and
clumbersome. Also Lasers should have a constant penatration of 1/10 (vech, space
combat). And penatration of 2 (personal combat). I figure the %age of the major
areas, quaters or engineering for exsample. And make a damage table from that.

Battle Rider ignores incrementle damage all togather. In my varient each system
could take a total of major hits (damage resistance) based on the square root of
its mass divided by ten (mass/10).
The amount of major hits/ damage resistance * the crew skill (elite = 15) is the
roll that must be made to keep the system online.

Also, one glaring error in both systems is how critical hits are figured. The
amount of damage is derived from the square root of the weapons energy. Armour
is the effective thickness of the hull. How the amount of damage the hull can
thake is based on a logrythmic function (1000Dt = 3, 10,000Dt = 4). It should be
based on the ships unloaded mass (mass/20).


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 626
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 627

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Details of T4 ?? by "Foxall-Reilly Darren" <d.foxall-reilly@worc.ac.uk>
  2) Newbie question regarding T4 by Gregor Arlt <100766.1656@compuserve.com>
  3) COALINFONET: NEWSREPORT by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  4) RC MIL TRAFFIC: TOP SECRET by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  5) RE: BARD system by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:20:16 +0000
From: "Foxall-Reilly Darren" <d.foxall-reilly@worc.ac.uk>
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Details of T4 ??
Message-ID: <96Mar15.141932gmt.36873@oswald.worc.ac.uk>


Can anyone e-mail me details of the proposed fourth edition of
Traveller ?

Is Marc Miller going to revert to an earlier incarnation of the
rules  ? Or will it be a significant reworking of Mega Traveller
to make it playable ?

So if you know tell me, or if a statement has been made by Mr Miller
tell me where to find it please.

Thanks !
Darren Foxall-Reilly




------------------------------

Date: 15 Mar 96 17:19:17 EST
From: Gregor Arlt <100766.1656@compuserve.com>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Newbie question regarding T4
Message-ID: <960315221916_100766.1656_GHV201-1@CompuServe.COM>

Hi,

I just received the first digest (#627) and I gather from it there's
gonna be a new incarnation of Traveller set in year 0 of the Imperium and
published by Imperium Games. Can somebody please enlighten me a bit
further on that subject (private email preferred as I guess this might be
a rather boring topic for seasoned readers).

Hm, I might as well take the time to introduce myself. I'm a 22 year-old
student of political science, movie lover, jazz-fan and (of course :-)
roleplayer. Roleplaying has been a hobby of mine for 8 or 9 years now,
starting with the German RPG _Das Schwarze Auge_, playing various genres
and in many worlds, using many different systems since, including
Traveller (German edition of classic Traveller dating from 1986 and soon
(number of players permitting) trying out TNE which I finally acquired
only a few days ago).

Cheers,

   Gregor


---

100766.1656@compuserve.com (Gregor Arlt)

Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe
that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.
        - Frank Herbert, DUNE

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:21:00 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: COALINFONET: NEWSREPORT
Message-ID: <199603152321.RAA12268@osh1.datasync.com>

 COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION: PUSH, AUTHORITY CIN/RCSA
DIRECTOR'S OFFICE AUBAINE (0738/AUBAINE, A78A884-C), 15/III/1201
 KEYWORDS: BARD, RCSA, LIBRARY DATA, MILLER PHILIBUS

 RCSA is pleased to announce that Captain (Ret.) Miller Philibus has been
selected to head the newest addition to the RCSA:  BARD - Bureau of
Aggregate Reference Data.  Director Philibus is well known for his services
performed in the RCN before his accident in the wilds that left him without
the use of his legs.

 In a press conference this morning, Director Philibus expressed his
enthusiasm about the future of the BARD project.  "After seventy years of
sitting dirtside, we have once again been given the stars, but even the best
minds forget things in seventy years.  This is where BARD comes in!!"
According to Director Philibus the BARD files will be a collecting place for
information that will help coalition citizens learn more about this universe
that we live in.  The data will include everything from abstracts on jump
drive systems to tourism info on the Member Worlds.

 The actual departments of BARD have not yet been finalized, but much of the
information is already being gathered.  Free-lance and assignment data will
be considered and interested citizens should contact:

                       Director Philibus at
                       tiger@datasync.com

 Director Philibus estimated that the BARD system would be on-line within
the next four weeks.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:21:34 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RC MIL TRAFFIC: TOP SECRET
Message-ID: <199603152321.RAA12288@osh1.datasync.com>

 RC MIL TRAFFIC, CLASS:TOP SECRET, DISTRIBUTION: SECGEN-DIRECTORS RCN/RCES,
AUTHORITY DIRECTOR RCSA AUBAINE(0738/AUBAINE, A78A884-C), 15/III/1201
 KEYWORDS: BARD, RCSA, MILLER PHILIBUS, LIBRARY INFO, INTELLIGENCE

Dear Sirs:

        With the appointment of Captain Philibus to head the BARD program,
we expect to have it operational as mentioned in our earlier estimates.  As
you know, Captain Philibus has numerous contacts throughout the wilds and
the so-called "free-trader network."

        We estimate that You will have access to the beginning of the intel
data stored at the BARD site within three weeks.  Of course, each of you
will be issued a password to allow access to the information.  Extra
security precautions have been taken to prevent this information falling
into the hands of the general public.

        Thank you, gentlemen, for your continued cooperation with this
project.  All of the final reports will come directly from Captain Philibus.

                                Sincerely,
                                Director RCSA


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:21:42 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: BARD system
Message-ID: <199603152321.RAA12295@osh1.datasync.com>

The final touches are going into the BARD system before I put it at my
website.  If anyone wants to include data about the RC, please either send
it to me as mail or a .TXT file.  Any files that will be included in the
initial BARD system must be sent to me before 3-20-96.  I will be going on
vacation and reviewing all articles submitted while I'm gone.  The week or
so after I'm back will be spent putting the .TXT files into .HTML format.

Thanks for the help and I'm looking forward to many articles.


Paul  {tiger}

"Ravage, pilage, maim, destroy, and put large hickeys on all the fair damsals"
        - Eric the Aweful


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 627
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 628

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Terran Federation - How Large a Pop? by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  2) Ship Stuff by odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
  3) Re: Dawn Clippers by jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 22:50:54 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
Message-ID: <199603161150.WAA07226@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

Just something that caught my eye while doing some work on my alternative
history background for the Interstellar Wars ... you know, the one that
assumes that everything we've been told is an organised lie?

Well, remember I proposed that the only way the Terran Federation could have
beaten the Vilani - who had much greater population and production resources -
was to outproduce them? Well, just how many people did the Terran Federation
*have*?

At present we have, what, 6 billion people? And the rate of population increase
is evidently slowing -- certainly in all developed countries.

The Nth Interstellar War ends in 2299 AD with the collapse of the Vilani
Imperium ... and within a very short time the Colonials under Admiral
Estigaribbia supposedly revolt against plans by the Terran Federation to
incorporate all of the Ziru Sirka. Supposedly they have made up most of the
fleets that have been fighting the Ziru Sirka.

Wait a minute! This is only three hundred years away! How many people are there
likely to be in the colonies in 300 years? How many colonies? Given that the
reasons for declining birthrates are as much to do with the fact that women
now have careers to pursue as for anything else, and that the nature of space
travel means that most colonists will come from wealthy countries, then can we
assume that the colonies have outbred earth in such a short time? We would have
to assume much higher than likely birth rates in the colonies than is likely
given the current attitude towards women (and women's attitudes towards
themselves!) ... and, given that the 3rd Imperium and the RefCol and the
Regency all have what seems like absolute equality for women, how can we
accept this?

So, it seems unlikely that the Colonials could have had the preponderance of
population needed to undertake successfully such a program *unless* they also
had a preponderance of industry and the like ... and the only way they could
normally be expected to manage this is if they had something like the AutoFacs
that I suggest. Even then, it seems likely that Terra would have a vast
industrial base that would be able to face them down ... certainly the older
colonies allied with Terra would tip the balance completely in the
mother-world's favour.

I would suggest that this is another indication that the "truth" we have been
presented with through Imperial sources is merely an organised lie to disguise
the treason of Estigaribbia and his (relative) handful of militarist cronies.
(Well, it makes a nice alternative theory anyway!)

Then, consider this, even if the Colonies *were* larger in population than
Terra and the older colonies, could they have realistically managed to grow
the required population to face off the Vilani in only 300 years? Makes you
wonder, eh?

Phil McGregor


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:19:52 -0500
From: odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Ship Stuff
Message-ID: <199603170322.VAA04304@falcon.inetnebr.com>

  I know a some people don't like Fire, Fusion and Steel because it goes
into too much detail.  Personally, I think it could use a little bit more.
Therefore, to correct what I feel are grossly negligent oversights, I would
like to propose a few additions to the Starship Construction rules.

Disclaimer:  I am not, nor have I ever been, affiliated with either GDW or
Imperium Games in any way, shape or form.  Nothing I say here should be
construed as being "official", "approved", or "canon" and anyone who thinks
RPGs should have any type of "canon" at all should go sit on their thumbs
until they get a clue.  RPGs were created to be imaginative outlets, not
religions.  Use this stuff if you like it (and write me!).  If you don't,
well, don't.

Proposed Additions to Starship Design

1.  Dead Space:  All starships require a certain amount of open space for
crew movement and access tunnels for repair.  This should be accounted for
in the design phase of ship design, before the deck plans are drawn up, and
I recommend the following methods.
  Cramped:  5-10% of total volume.  Typical of Military vessels.
  Roomy:    10-15% of total volume.  Merchant vessels and chartered passenger
            ships.
  Spacious: 15-20% of total volume.  Luxury liners and private yacts.
  Using more space than about 25% of total volume is pretty wasteful.

2.  Common Areas:  The crew and any passengers should have some sort of
lounge area set aside for relaxation and recreation.  This can be any size
the designer wishes, but typically will be built in increments of 4 Dtons.
  Size:     Volume:  Mass:   MW:    MCr:
  Dinky     28kl      4.0    0.002  0.10
  Small     56kl      8.0    0.005  0.20
  Medium    84kl     12.0    0.010  0.50
  Large    112kl     16.0    0.025  1.00
  Immense  224kl     32.0    0.050  2.50

3.  Sanitation Facilities:  Another necessary item overlooked by the rules
and usually ignored by designers is the bathroom.  The number of Shower and
Fresher (bathroom) units that need to be installed depends on the number of
crew and passengers carried, and the number and type of staterooms or bunks
installed.  Large Staterooms have all the amenities, regardless of
occupancy (single or double).  Small staterooms usually have a vanity (sink
and cabinet) but no Fresher or Shower.  Bunks, of course, have neither.
  Facility:  Volume:  Mass:  MW:  MCr:
  Shower     7.0      0.5     *   0.001
  Fresher    7.0      0.5     *   0.001
  *Power use is covered by the Life Support System, which runs the water and
   waste reclamation systems.

  At least one of each unit must be installed for every two SSR's or four
bunks.  Military vessels can usually get by on less, but the crew may get a
bit testy (possible morale penalties during combat).

4.  Life Support Units
  The Extended Life Support system described in FFS includes waste
disposal/recycling, air, environment, food production and water
circulation/ reclamation systems.  Most players (and refs) take it for
granted, and that's fine.  But for those of us who actually /like/ this
kind of detail, here's a few items to consider.

"Captain, make Smithers do something about his socks!"
  I'll start with the simplest, the air system.  This consists of a filter,
conditioner, heater, humidifier/dehumidifier and CO2 scrubber.  The filter
and CO2 scrubbers are probably the most important; they remove harmful
substances from the ship's environment.  Assuming suitable advances in
technology, we can assume the filter/scrubber system occupies 0.1kl per
crewmember and passenger and lasts 6 months before needing a recharge.  The
conditioner/heater system is simpler; it's about 0.5kl per 100 Dtons.  The
humidifier/dehumidifier system is half the volume of the
conditioner/heater.

"Water, water everywhere..."
  The water recirculation/reclamation system is slightly more complex, and
consists of storage, filters, heaters, and cooling systems.  Waste water
from the showers and freshers is filtered and distilled before being stored
for future consumption by the crew.  Uric acid is evacuated through one-way
vents in the skin of the ship (they're too small to be of significant
surface area), and electrolytes and waste nutrients are reclaimed by the
ship's food production system (next).  The water system can be assumed to
occupy 1kl per person, crew and passengers, budgeted for.

"Anybody know a good plumber?"
  The waste disposal system is distributed throughout the ship, in the
ship's fresher units.  Human (and other) waste is broken down and nutrients
are reclaimed by the ship's food processors.  Useless chemicals are
evacuated through the same vents used by the water systems.

"How you get so big eating food of this kind?"
  The ship's food processors are, no doubt, a major source of frustration
and bad jokes for crew and passengers alike.  They probably include a
fairly large set of tanks containing various nutrients (vitamins and
proteins), a combiner, and a heating or cooling system.  High tech systems
should be able to produce a fairly wide variety of foods, all with roughly
the same (bland) flavor.  Chemicals added to dispensed water makes it able
to create the illusion of different beverages.  Most systems probably are
limited to producing rather bland, but nutritive, bricks or wafers of
brownish stuff, and plain or "kool- aid" flavored water.  Yum.  And the
nutrient tanks should contain enough to feed the entire crew and passenger
complement one month.
  So, what's the lonely spacer to do?  Well, from personal experience, I
can say that an MRE (Meal, Ready to Eat for those who haven't had the
<ahem> pleasure) occupies about 5 liters volume, so a 1-kl box should hold
about 200.  Assuming one MRE per day per person, this is enough to feed 200
people for one day, or one person for 200 days.  An MRE contains all the
nutrients an average person should need for one day, and about 3,000
calories.  Believe me, this is more than anyone should be required to eat
in a lifetime.  But I digress.
  I'll use the standard Scout/Courier as an example.  Its crew of 3 is a
fairly workable number for a typical PC crew.  Let's add the gun and make
the crew 4 to make it easy.  If we assume each person eats one MRE per
ship's day (24 hours), that 1-kl package of preserved food will last about
50 days, by the end of which time the crew should be dying for some /real/
food.
  Better quality food and drinks are available, of course.  Consumption
rates should be halved for non-concentrated, "normal" food.  Liquids can be
stored in tanks of up to 1000 liters.  And the real beauty of it is,
anything the crew eats and drinks gets recycled by the waste recycling
systems and put right back in the ship's food processors for more yummy
brown bars!

  In case you're wondering, all this junk about Life Support Systems is
just to help me establish whether or not the ELS system described in FFS is
accurate or not.  I've decided it probably is.  All the stuff I've
described above should be able to fit fairly well into the 11.2kl life
system installed in the Scout/Courier.
  Also, there are two problems related to MREs that I probably should
mention.  First, most of them taste like crap.  I have no reason to believe
that advances in technology will improve this.  People have complained
about military rations since time began, and probably will continue to do
so 3,700 years in the future.  Second, they cause constipation.  I'm
talking shittin' bricks here.  If you can at all.  Chances are, starship
commanders won't issue the things unless increased water rationing is
enforced strictly.  Still, it beats the brown bars.

5.  Other Things that Probably Don't Need to be Considered
  These are all things that most people probably wouldn't think of listing
in a design profile, but might be fun to add to a deck plan.  They are
intended to add flavor to the design.

  Item:         Volume:  Mass:   MW:    MCr:
  Wet Bar       14kl      1.50   0.0010 0.0200
  Refrigerator   2kl      0.75   0.0005 0.0010
  Pool Table     2kl      0.20   0      0.0005
  Hologame       1kl      0.25   0.0001 0.0200
  Exercise Room 56kl     10.00   0.0010 0.2000
  Dart Board      neg.    neg.   0      0.0001


                +
                -\        "I should'a taken that
                | |      /       left toin at Albuquoiqe."
                | |       _
       _        | |      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/_________odysseus@inetnebr.com
                                 PGP 2.6.2 Public Key available



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 23:10:47 -0500
From: jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Dawn Clippers
Message-ID: <199603170410.XAA19780@pipe9.nyc.pipeline.com>

If I recall correctly, the Auroras were originally civilian ships,
quickly redesigned to a military version after the
Dawn Trader disasters.

There's no need to have them "civilianized", just call it
the original design.
--
John H Bogan           jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 628
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 629

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: Ship Stuff by AQLH90D@prodigy.com (MR JON G FULLER)
  2) RE: Ship Stuff by lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B lynch-Blosse)
  3) Re: Ship Stuff by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  4) TF and ship design by aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
  5) Racist newsgroup proposal alert! by Jay.Betrug@mail-e2a-service.gnn.com
  6) Terran Federation - How Large a Pop? by Antti Lahtinen <al76188@cs.tut.fi>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 16:00:25 EST
From: AQLH90D@prodigy.com (MR JON G FULLER)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Ship Stuff
Message-ID: <013.03749861.AQLH90D@prodigy.com>

I appreciate your go at expanding the FFS rules.  Now I can bother my
players about refilling the food dispensers (as opposed to bothering
them about making peanut butter sandwiches in their staterooms).
I'll try this stuff out soon.

Thanks.
Jon Fuller


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:38:14 +1300
From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B lynch-Blosse)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Ship Stuff
Message-ID: <v01540b01ad725ec6921a@[130.217.146.6]>

Hello to everyone out there,

Just a comment regarding the stuff sent through by Jeff Kazmierski in
digest 628. Dose'nt the ammount of tonnage, cost and displacement of the
staterooms cover some amount of extra space? I remember reading somewhere
that approximately half of the 4ton of a stateroom is given up to space for
a galley, crew quarters, walkways and the like. How does your system take
this into account? You could do this by reducing the amount of size, volume
and cost of a standard stateroom.

Just a thought

All comments and theories welcomed

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:14:31 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Ship Stuff
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960318021431.006643d0@mail.usa.net>

At 10:22 PM 3/16/96 -0500, you wrote:
>  I know a some people don't like Fire, Fusion and Steel because it goes
>into too much detail.  Personally, I think it could use a little bit more.

        Excellent! This is the kind of detail gear-head perverts like myself
like to see!
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:30:52 -0700
From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TF and ship design
Message-ID: <199603180630.XAA16826@scratchy.itsnet.com>


>From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?


>Well, remember I proposed that the only way the Terran Federation could have
>beaten the Vilani - who had much greater population and production resources -

In the game Imperium the Villani empire was being torn apart by civil wars
at the thim of first contact.  the sector govener had to fight those pesky
terrans on his own.

>was to outproduce them? Well, just how many people did the Terran Federation
>*have*?

at the start, three "homeworlds" and three outposts say 10-20 billion?

>
>At present we have, what, 6 billion people? And the rate of population increase
>is evidently slowing -- certainly in all developed countries.
but breeding for reproduction, those who don't have children don't, so only
those who want to will.  this means the the children are from those who want
to.  Take my wife for instance, she wants 4-5 children. Do you think that
our daughters will want childern as well?


>
>The Nth Interstellar War ends in 2299 AD with the collapse of the Vilani
>Imperium ... and within a very short time the Colonials under Admiral
>Estigaribbia supposedly revolt against plans by the Terran Federation to
>incorporate all of the Ziru Sirka. Supposedly they have made up most of the
>fleets that have been fighting the Ziru Sirka.
>
>Wait a minute! This is only three hundred years away! How many people are there
>likely to be in the colonies in 300 years? How many colonies? Given that the
assumiong a doubling every 20 years a good guess given present
birthrates...starting in 2000 with 8 billion (projected figure pehaps
outdated) 262144 billion
double evey 30 years:8192 billion
doulbe every 40 years:1448 billion
double evey 50 years(very low guess):512 billion

>reasons for declining birthrates are as much to do with the fact that women
>now have careers to pursue as for anything else, and that the nature of space

those with careers will either not have children, in which case they remove
themselves from the gene pool, or they willin which case pop. will continue
to increase.  With technology more and more people can work from home, or
just part time.  the work week in Germany is down to (I think) 32hrs.

>travel means that most colonists will come from wealthy countries, then can we
>assume that the colonies have outbred earth in such a short time? We would have
>to assume much higher than likely birth rates in the colonies than is likely
>given the current attitude towards women (and women's attitudes towards
>themselves!) ... and, given that the 3rd Imperium and the RefCol and the
>Regency all have what seems like absolute equality for women, how can we
>accept this?
>
and all those FreeTrader families all the family on the ship.


>So, it seems unlikely that the Colonials could have had the preponderance of
>population needed to undertake successfully such a program *unless* they also
>had a preponderance of industry and the like ... and the only way they could
>normally be expected to manage this is if they had something like the AutoFacs
>that I suggest. Even then, it seems likely that Terra would have a vast
>industrial base that would be able to face them down ... certainly the older
>colonies allied with Terra would tip the balance completely in the
>mother-world's favour.

It could be, I would have to see the history more closly where can I find it?
>


>From: odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
>Subject: Ship Stuff
>
>Proposed Additions to Starship Design
>
>1.  Dead Space:  All starships require a certain amount of open space for
>2.  Common Areas:  The crew and any passengers should have some sort of
>3.  Sanitation Facilities:  Another necessary item overlooked by the rules
>

I think that these are included in the quarters,  they were in CT

>4.  Life Support Units

>"Captain, make Smithers do something about his socks!"

LOL

>"How you get so big eating food of this kind?"



>  So, what's the lonely spacer to do?  Well, from personal experience, I
>can say that an MRE (Meal, Ready to Eat for those who haven't had the
><ahem> pleasure) occupies about 5 liters volume, so a 1-kl box should hold
>about 200.  Assuming one MRE per day per person, this is enough to feed 200
*measures one*
6cm x 12cm x 21cm =1512 ml
call it 1.5 l
or 666.6_
call it 600 per kl

>people for one day, or one person for 200 days.  An MRE contains all the
>nutrients an average person should need for one day, and about 3,000
>calories.  Believe me, this is more than anyone should be required to eat
>in a lifetime.  But I digress.

too true


>  I'll use the standard Scout/Courier as an example.  Its crew of 3 is a
>fairly workable number for a typical PC crew.  Let's add the gun and make
>the crew 4 to make it easy.  If we assume each person eats one MRE per
>ship's day (24 hours), that 1-kl package of preserved food will last about
>50 days, by the end of which time the crew should be dying for some /real/
>food.

"well we don't *need* the gunner, I wounder how he would taste." :)



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:21:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay.Betrug@mail-e2a-service.gnn.com
To: warn-people@fictional.net
Subject: Racist newsgroup proposal alert!
Message-ID: <199603180321.WAA31955@mail-e2a-service.gnn.com>

There is currently a proposal for the newsgroup rec.music.white-power,
an attempt by neo-nazi racists to legitimize their activities. It is now
in the CFV stage, where anyone with a valid e-mail address may vote.

"White power" racist music is not a legitimate form of music deserving of
a separate rec.music newsgroup, but rather a political group masquerading
as a musical one. And, the rec.* hierarchy is inappropriate because rec.*
is for recreational activities, and racism is anything but recreational.

But, most importantly, we must show the racists that they will not be
granted a mainstream forum in order to promote hate. If you don't want
a Usenet where minorities feel unwelcome and uncomfortable, vote NO on
rec.music.white-power. Let's make this a crushing defeat for racists.

To vote, send e-mail to music-vote@sub-rosa.com and put

I vote NO on rec.music.white-power

in the body of the message.

The actual CFV can be found on news.announce.newsgroups,
or by sending a blank e-mail to music-cfv@sub-rosa.com.

Voting ends 23:59:59 UTC, 18 Mar 1996, so act quickly!


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:07:51 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <al76188@cs.tut.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
Message-ID: <199603180807.KAA05404@cs.tut.fi>

>Then, consider this, even if the Colonies *were* larger in population than
>Terra and the older colonies, could they have realistically managed to grow
>the required population to face off the Vilani in only 300 years? Makes you
>wonder, eh?

        One possible way to explain fast population growth in colonies
        is cloning and genetic engineering. I think this was mentioned
        in the old DGP=B4s "Soloman and Aslan" sourcebook and Atoll's
        "Gene Wars Chronicles".
        (I had all my old Traveller material scanned into text with
        Omnipage, and converted into FrameMaker help-file. Unfortunately
        my hard disk crashed, I am now missing parts and can not look up
        the source material.)

        While cloning could explain fast population growth, the original
        question still remains unaswered: How large population they had?


        Antti Lahtinen    :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        al76188@cs.tut.fi :


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 629
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 630

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Terran Federation -- Population? by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  2) How does one settle new planets? by Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
  3) Reply to Dave Hipple by "Foxall-Reilly Darren" <d.foxall-reilly@worc.ac.uk>
  4) Low-Berths and Cold Sleep by lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B lynch-Blosse)
  5) Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop? by "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
  6) Terran Federation - How Large a Pop? by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
  7) Megatraveller computer game by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
  8) Dugan Modular Cargo Shuttle by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  9) Re: Ship stuff by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
 10) What is Black Curtain? by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
 11) Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop? by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
 12) Re: Racist newsgroup proposal alert! by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
 13) FFS TNG by t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
 14) SDB corrections by Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 15) FFS Crew Rules by Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 16) Dark Nebula? by Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
 17) Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop? by jlockett@hanszen.rice.edu (Joseph L Lockett)
 18) Re: Ship stuff by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:18:25 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Terran Federation -- Population?
Message-ID: <199603181118.WAA29400@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: TF and ship design
> Message-ID: <199603180630.XAA16826@scratchy.itsnet.com>
>
> >From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
> >To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
> >Subject: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
>
>
> >Well, remember I proposed that the only way the Terran Federation could have
> >beaten the Vilani - who had much greater population and production resources
-
> In the game Imperium the Villani empire was being torn apart by civil wars
> at the thim of first contact.  the sector govener had to fight those pesky
> terrans on his own.

yes, but so what? He had a bigger population base and industrial base to back
him up!

> >was to outproduce them? Well, just how many people did the Terran Federation
> >*have*?
>
> at the start, three "homeworlds" and three outposts say 10-20 billion?

OK, where does it say this?

> >At present we have, what, 6 billion people? And the rate of population increa
se
> >is evidently slowing -- certainly in all developed countries.

> but breeding for reproduction, those who don't have children don't, so only
> those who want to will.  this means the the children are from those who want
> to.  Take my wife for instance, she wants 4-5 children. Do you think that
> our daughters will want childern as well?

Well, yes, but your wife is going well against the trend. Current estimates are
that the projected topping out of Planetary Population at 13 billion will not
now occur ... the rate of increase has slowed and the projection is now only 11
billion. We can make a reasonable assumption that this figure may well be
revised down *again*.

> >Wait a minute! This is only three hundred years away! How many people are the
> >likely to be in the colonies in 300 years? How many colonies? Given that the

> assumiong a doubling every 20 years a good guess given present
> birthrates...starting in 2000 with 8 billion (projected figure pehaps
> outdated) 262144 billion
> double evey 30 years:8192 billion
> doulbe every 40 years:1448 billion
> double evey 50 years(very low guess):512 billion

But you have no basis for this assumption! You are, in fact, going completely
*against* current trends. All western industrial countries are now in the
position that they have a birth rate that is below the underlaying replacement
rate needed to ensure that populations remain even *stable*, let alone *grow*!
In other words, the nations with the money and political clout to be involved
in any colonisation deal are those that have a declining population. Even
assuming that the colonists want larger families than the average, then there
is no reason at all to assume that the women will want to be "barefoot,
pregnant, and in the kitchen" ... which limits their family sizes. All in all,
you do not have a convincing case ... the figures are correct, but you provide
no underlaying basis to support them.

> those with careers will either not have children, in which case they remove
> themselves from the gene pool, or they willin which case pop. will continue
> to increase.  With technology more and more people can work from home, or
> just part time.  the work week in Germany is down to (I think) 32hrs.

See above figures re revised max population of 11 billion ... rate of increase
is declining even in underdeveloped countries. Your assumptions are *not*
supportable based on what is *actually* happening.

> and all those FreeTrader families all the family on the ship.

Yep, all those families where every extra mouth costs so many thousand credits
in life support every Jump! Every extra mouth which takes up cargo/passenger
space. And the number of Free Trader ships ... miniscule compared to the
planetary populations!

> It could be, I would have to see the history more closly where can I find it?

If you're really interested, I can repost it ... tho it may take awhile as it's
not is ASCII format and will have to be converted.

Phil McGregor

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:55:40 +0100
From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: How does one settle new planets?
Message-ID: <199603181155.17061.beyla.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no>


I have a question about moving large amounts of people
from one planet to another.

I'm working on a setting in the 2100 century, about TL12.
Terra starts emigration in about 2050 and I want about
10 permanent settlements in a J2-3 radius from Earth.

Lets say that TL10 = 2030, TL11= 2060 and TL12 = 2090

a) What is the capasity (in disp.ton) of the Terran Fleet,
when I assume that Heplar is TL10 and developed in 2040 and
jump is TL10 developed in 2050.?

b) How many people can the Fleet move before, say 2075 when
most ships are used in a war against an alien race?

c) If setteling ends in 2075, how would the population increase
until 2100?

---------------------------
Tommy Grav         | tommyg@ifi.uio.no
University in Oslo | http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/
Norway             |        No qoute yet.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:07:14 +0000
From: "Foxall-Reilly Darren" <d.foxall-reilly@worc.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Reply to Dave Hipple
Message-ID: <96Mar18.140642gmt.36874@oswald.worc.ac.uk>


Dave

Thanks for the message. I've tried replaying directly and can n't get
through to your server. Who you e-mail me again with your address.

I've not found a UK forum for the game, but I'm still looking.

I'll pass on a list of which materials I have, and anywhere that is
still selling it.

Cheers !
Darren

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 03:34:28 +1300
From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B lynch-Blosse)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Low-Berths and Cold Sleep
Message-ID: <v01540b02ad73220ef6b6@[130.217.146.14]>

Hi,

Just a quick question regarding low-berths and deep sleep. Where in the
rules does it state the length of time one can spend in a low berth?. Is it
possible to extend your live by a few 10's of years by periodically
entering a low berth? My guess is that the length of time would depend on
the persons endurance(?) value. Presumably the higher the value the more
likly they are to make the required saving throw at the end of the stasis.

Any thoughts or comments on this are welcomed

B Lynch-Blosse



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:54:54 -0600
From: "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960318145454.00697a58@pop.interaccess.com>

As it so happens, I am playing in a campaign set in this very period (on the
"avoid canon debates by preempting it" theory). We did not think of the
disease angle (one question: why doesn't it work equally well in reverse?),
but that might explain some things.

Our theory is that the Vilani Empire has a political structure similar to
Imperial Rome (or actually, 12th century Byzantium is probably closer). The
governors of each area are pretty much independent operators. They raise
their own troops and taxes, and send some portion off to the Emperor every
decade or so. The governor of the area nearest to Terra is ruling over a
province where the priorities of the Empire (i.e, conquest of other Empires
by war) cannot be indulged. Therefore, he/she has few resources on hand to
resist the Terrans when they meet. Socially, the Imperium is decadent and
politically divided. In our game (we hope), the opportunistic players will
rush in and give the Vilani a lesson in realpolitik, playing factions off
against each other, hiring higher tech mercenaries, and marrying into the
Vilani upper crust like crazy (through threats or treaties). So, the Terrans
are basically the Huns or the Visigoths of the Roman period, or the Bulgars
or Crusaders of the Byzantine period.

By this reckoning, Terra does not need to have a huge population to overcome
the Vilani (at first, that is). The governor rules over some 50-60 billions,
only 5-10% of whom will mobilize for war. The Terrans can mobilize a higher
percentage of their population to fight the Vilani. Also, given the "Roman"
model, the Vilani governor may decide that it makes more sense to give the
Terrans some land in return for peace, after the Terrans plunder some
outlying planets. Maybe he/she will also hire them into the Vilani military,
setting the stage for the treason Phil referred to. Both of these courses
were taken by the Romans, who had a huge advantage in both technology and
population, in dealing with the barbarians. In the end, though, we know who
won out.

Just some thoughts. Any reactions would be appreciated, as they can be put
into playtest pretty much immediately.

Thanks,

John A. King
jking @interaccess.com

"Scientists are Peeping Toms at the keyhole of eternity."
- Arthur Koestler


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:03:28 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
Message-ID: <s14d4313.086@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>

Phillip McGregor writes:

>Well, remember I proposed that the only way the Terran Federation
>could have beaten the Vilani - who had much greater population and
>production resources - was to outproduce them? Well, just how many
>people did the Terran Federation *have*?

   Terra in 2086 AD (the time of first contact) probably has a population
of around 12 to 15 billion (a good guess to be honest).  By the time of
the First Interstellar War, that had probably expanded an additional
6 to 7 billion, assuming explosive growth on the colony worlds
(Prometheus and ?).  Grand total: 18 to 22 billion.  While Vilani worlds
such as Dingir may have had populations in excess of one billion, I doubt
that the Vilani population of the Rim was all that much larger.  Remember
to the Vilani, the Solomani Rim was on the far frontier.

   To make matters worse for the Imperium, local governors were
restricted in their ability to act, based upon the fact that they had to work
almost exclusively with local resources.  Appeals to higher headquarters
for assistance were costly in terms of personal prestige, and a governor
risked his job everytime he made an appeal for help.  That meant that the
Vilani only have a slight advantage in the First Interstellar War, based
upon the superior quality and organization of their interstellar forces (the
Terrans were new to the space warfare game after all).  Subsequently,
the Terrans learned how to fight in space, and build bigger and better
starships.  This enabled them to reduce and conquer the province based
around Dingir, and then expand spinward and coreward taking over the
whole Rim.

>The Nth Interstellar War ends in 2299 AD with the collapse of the Vilani
>Imperium ... and within a very short time the Colonials under Admiral
>Estigaribbia supposedly revolt against plans by the Terran Federation to
>incorporate all of the Ziru Sirka. Supposedly they have made up most
>of the fleets that have been fighting the Ziru Sirka.

   Within 300 years, the population of the Terran Confederation would
have expanded due to two major factors: the natural growth of
population (to perhaps 86+ billion on Terran and its colonies), and the
absorption of conquered territories (perhaps another 80+ billion).  This
figure doesn't even include the DGP hypothesized GenAssist ``Tuber``
colonies, which would add another perhaps another 80 billion or so
(again a good guess).  Grand total at the end of the Terran
Confederation: perhaps 250 billion or more.

   Given that the Terrans at this point have a TL 13 fleet (the Vilani only
have TL 12), that they routinely employ robots on their ships, and that
the Interstellar Wars were primarily *naval* wars, how many people
would the Terran Confederation need?  I think that 250+ billion would be
more than enough, especially when you throw in the Vargrs eating
away at the Imperium's coreward flank (causing the Vilani to keep
valuable fleet elements tied up away from the action), and the fact that
many Imperial worlds saw the Terrans as liberators from Vilani
oppression.

>Given that the reasons for declining birthrates are as much to do with
>the fact that women now have careers to pursue as for anything else,

   Two things here would be mitigating factors: one, the introduction of
artifical wombs and other technology that make it possible for women
to continue their careers with less disruption; also, the likeihood that
many governments encouraged women to have more babies based on
the fact that the Terrans were so outnumbered by the Imperium.  This
``encouragement`` would not only take the form of ads that appeal to
patriotism, but also measures like the outlawing of certain birth control
devices, and of course most forms of abortion.  This would have likely
caused a *major* transformation culturally in Terran society, and not
necessarily to a model in which the women stay ``barefoot and
pregnant.``

>I would suggest that this is another indication that the "truth" we have
>been presented with through Imperial sources is merely an organised
>lie to disguise the treason of Estigaribbia and his (relative) handful of
>militarist cronies.  (Well, it makes a nice alternative theory anyway!)

   Perhaps, but if the population and industrial base of the Tuber colonies
and the conquered Vilani populations made up as much as two-thirds of
the Terran Confederation, then Estigaribbia would have had no trouble
marshalling enough support to take over the government, especially if
he also garnered support from Terran and Terran colony naval officers
who felt as he did.

   We might also rightly conclude that a major cultural transformation had
taken place during the three centuries of warfare.  In the Terran
Confederation of the late 23rd century, the military does not think of itself
as being subordinate to the civilian government--indeed Estigaribbia was
probably officially relieved of command by the government--an order
that was ignored by Estigaribbia and his fellow officers.  It is possible
that the Terran Confederation had developed a kind of warrior-elite class
similar to that found in old Prussia or Japan, and that the population as a
whole looked up to this warrior-elite as their protectors.  This would also
explain why there was no revolt of Terra after the coup.  Given the
*apparent* long odds the Terrans faced, the development of such a
class would be a natural outgrowth.

Regards,

Harold



------------------------------

Date:          Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:02:41 MDT
From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Megatraveller computer game
Message-ID: <9218401EE9@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>

Has anyone out there played the Megatraveller 2:Quest for the
Ancients computer game?  If so please send a message to me.  My
address is walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us  I need some help on it."Ah ha ha ha 
ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha...
*THUMP*" -Vicinni
walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 11:57:03 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Dugan Modular Cargo Shuttle
Message-ID: <9603181657.AA01338@chara.gsu.edu>


Dugan Class Modular Cargo Shuttle

GENERAL DATA
 Displacement: 80 tons                  Hull Armor: 10
 Length: 28 meters                      Volume: 1120 m^3
 Price: 37.02 MCr                       Target Size: VS (S w/module)
 Configuration: Box USL                 Tech Level: 12
 Mass (Loaded/Unloaded) 1574.8/1204.8

ENGINEERING DATA
 Power Plant: 260 MW Fusion Power Plant. 1 month duration.
              6.2 MW surplus
 Jump Performance: Not Jump Capable
 G-Rating: 1G (240MW/G)
 G-Turns: 13.8.  25 m^3 per G-Turn
 Fuel Tankage: 345 m^3
 Maint: 75

ELECTRONICS
 Computer: 2x TL 12 Std Computers
 Commo: 30,000 km Radio
 Avionics: TL-10+ Avionics
 Sensors: 3000 km AEMS
 Controls: 4 workstations

ARMAMENT
 None

ACCOMMODATIONS
 Life Support: Basic (.075 MW) Not on Fuel Compartment
 Grav Compensation: None
 Crew: 1 Pilot, 3x Engineers
 Crew Accommodations: None
 Cargo: None
 Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 400 ton USL Grapple
 Air Locks: 1

Notes:
The Dugan is built at Dushkin & Delgado's lunar shipyard.  It is
designed to ferry around the various modules that the Aurora family
of ships uses.  If it doesn't mount a module, it easily has enough
thrust to rip itself to shreds, Saftey overides are installed, but
Dushkin & Delgado takes no responsiblity for anyone overiding the
saftey overides.  The Dugan is a fairly common site around the RC Naval
Base on Aurora, and at several of the RCES bases.  As the RC builds
more and more modular ships, the Dugan will be come more common.
The Dugan can also be used in Salvage work, hauling around hulls of
dead ships.

It looks like a miniature version of an Aurora.  A small boxy compartment
up front, a long spine, and a rear compartment holding engineering and
the engines.


------------------------------

Date:          Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:16:31 MDT
From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Ship stuff
Message-ID: <92535836DB@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>

I remember reading in FF&S and in fact I have right here.  On page 62
under the heading Spacecraft Deckplans, it says "When allocating
space within the craft, assume that only a portion of the specified
volume for staterooms, bunks, etc., is used for those fittings per
se; the remainder should be used for common areas and other
accomadations for the crew, such as recreation areas, eating spaces,
and so on."  I assume this includes everything you made rules for in
your message."Ah ha ha ha ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha...
*THUMP*" -Vicinni
walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

Date:          Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:44:41 MDT
From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: What is Black Curtain?
Message-ID: <92CBA43B69@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>

I hope nobody answered the time I put this on before, because if they
did I probably deleted it.  Anyway, what the heck is the Black
Curtain and what is the Empress Wave.  I'd really like to know.
"Ah ha ha ha ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha...
*THUMP*" -Vicinni
walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:46:43 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
Message-ID: <160BBE73026@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>


> From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
> Message-ID: <199603161150.WAA07226@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
>
> Just something that caught my eye while doing some work on my alternative
> history background for the Interstellar Wars ... you know, the one that
> assumes that everything we've been told is an organised lie?
>
> Given that the
> reasons for declining birthrates are as much to do with the fact that women
> now have careers to pursue as for anything else,

BZZZT! Wrongo.  The reason that birthrates are declining in
industrialized societies has nothing to do with women seeking
careers outside of the home.  Agricultural societies have a distinct
advantage in having large families...built-in farm hands.  Large
families are a disadvantage in an industrialized society, where
there is no direct connection between the family and it's means of
making a living (ie: the food supply is right out there on the back
40).  The decline in birthrates in the first world started long
before two-income families were the 'norm'.

I agree with you, however that the time frame for the expansion of
the human federation is too short...but then, most of the timeframes
in Traveller are impossibly short.



Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:15:33 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: gherbert@crl.com, Jay.Betrug@mail-e2a.service.gnn.com
Subject: Re: Racist newsgroup proposal alert!
Message-ID: <199603181915.AA12437@mail.crl.com>


I am sorry that this has come up on the Traveller list,
but I feel I have to make a brief statement...

The message which was sent below is unfortunately a blatant
example of abusive Usenet campaigning.  It is against proper
procedures for either side in a Usenet proposal to send voting
instructions without a complete and uneditied copy of the
Call for Votes; please, if you care about Usenet, do not vote on this
issue without having read the full proposal (CFV) as posted to
the Usenet newsgroup news.announce.newgroups .  Giving in to
shallow biased propaganda by any party rather than making
informed votes damages the integrity of Usenet in the long term.

I am not in any way trying to defend racism here,
just the Usenet process.  You can't lynch KKK members
any more than anyone else.  There are rules and procedures
which apply evenly to everyone.

-george william herbert
occational Traveller writer
inactive member and former coordinator of the Usenet Volounteer Votetakers


>From: Jay.Betrug@mail-e2a-service.gnn.com
>Subject: Racist newsgroup proposal alert!
>
>There is currently a proposal for the newsgroup rec.music.white-power,
>an attempt by neo-nazi racists to legitimize their activities. It is now
>in the CFV stage, where anyone with a valid e-mail address may vote.
>
>"White power" racist music is not a legitimate form of music deserving of
>a separate rec.music newsgroup, but rather a political group masquerading
>as a musical one. And, the rec.* hierarchy is inappropriate because rec.*
>is for recreational activities, and racism is anything but recreational.
>
>But, most importantly, we must show the racists that they will not be
>granted a mainstream forum in order to promote hate. If you don't want
>a Usenet where minorities feel unwelcome and uncomfortable, vote NO on
>rec.music.white-power. Let's make this a crushing defeat for racists.
>
>To vote, send e-mail to music-vote@sub-rosa.com and put
>
>I vote NO on rec.music.white-power
>
>in the body of the message.
>
>The actual CFV can be found on news.announce.newsgroups,
>or by sending a blank e-mail to music-cfv@sub-rosa.com.
>
>Voting ends 23:59:59 UTC, 18 Mar 1996, so act quickly!
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:02:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: FFS TNG
Message-ID: <S9603182002.AA28652@sysb.abdn.ac.uk>


starships
would it be soley limited to the bog standard physical based contructs
or would there be scope for the so called biological based living-ships
ie G.E.M ships, designed to sustain life and have a personality or
is it too wierd to imagine a living ship.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:01:28 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: SDB corrections
Message-ID: <199603182101.PAA23025@natasha.itlabs.umn.edu>

The TNE version of the TL12 _Shukugan_ SDB has a design error.  Like
most GDW-designed craft, the thrust is not sufficient to accelerate
the ship's mass as rated.  These corrections should be made to the
ship as presented in the rule books:

Price:  MCr 239.31
Mass:   7587.18 tons loaded / 7311.18 tons empty

Power Plant: 1640 MW (50 MW/hit), 1 year duration
G-Rating:    4G (380 MW/G), CG Lifters (40 MW)
G-Turns:     48 (47.5 kL ea.)
Maint:       281

 The HEPlaR drives have been upgraded from "16000 tons thrust" to
 "30400 tons thrust", at the expense of fuel.  The power plant has
 been upgraded to support this.  Note that the reaction system is
 small, itself -- the power plant is the large component.

Crew:  32  (1 x Maneuver, 1 x Electronic, 18 x Engineering, 6 x Gunner,
            2 x Maintenance, 4 x Command)

 Existing accomodations are used but made more crowded; the twelve small
 staterooms are divided as one single-occupancy and two double-occupancy
 for officers and the most senior petty officer, and nine triple-occupancy
 for everyone else.

PP - 33H
MD -  2H

AREA    SURFACE      INT. EXPLOSION
18-19                1-5: Hold, 6-20: Engineering

 No other changes were made to the design.  The fuel purification system
 was left at full size in order to support a 200 d-ton SDB Jump Shuttle.
 Stay tuned for details.

   Steve Bonneville
   <bonn0015@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:02:35 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: FFS Crew Rules
Message-ID: <199603182102.PAA23039@natasha.itlabs.umn.edu>

As long as we're sharing FF&S rules modifications and suggestions,
here's two more related to starship crew.

*  The TNE engineering crew requirement is much larger than in
   MT.  I suggest that this is because most starships in the old
   days used specialized engineering robots to reduce the engineering
   crew.  For ships crewed in the old way, a robot may replace two
   human engineers (they don't get tired), but every six robots or
   fraction thereof must be supervised by a living engineer.  The
   living engineers are analogous to the robots' command crew.

   Test calculations show that this reduces crew back to the levels
   they were for MT.  For example, my corrected TL12 SDB crew is:
   Crew:  32  (1 x Maneuver, 1 x Electronic, 18 x Engineering,
               6 x Gunner, 2 x Maintenance, 4 x Command)
   The eighteen engineers becomes two engineers and eight robots.
   Crew:  14  (1 x Maneuver, 1 x Electronic, 2 x Engineering,
               6 x Gunner, 2 x Maintenance, 2 x Command)
   By reducing the gunner position by two (control two mounts from
   the MFDs only), we get a crew of 11, right between CT's 10 and
   MT's 12.  Another option is to only allow one robot to replace
   one engineer -- then after reducing the gunners, we need one
   more living engineer and get a living crew of 12 and a robot
   crew of 15.  I'm trying to keep the robot crew smaller, though.

   The TNE engineering crew is based on power output (based on plant
   tonnage) and the MT crew was based on plant tonnage, so this should
   be consistent across size and tech levels.  I'd be interested in
   hearing comments about this.

*  To encourage the use of fixed weapons on small craft, note that
   all official designs with fixed-mount weapons combine the gunner
   position for the weapon with the pilot's position.  A reduced
   crew is definitely an advantage on small craft.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonn0015@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:41:18 -0800
From: Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Dark Nebula?
Message-ID: <14de6a10@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

Can anyone tell me why Dark Nebula Sector is named as such?  I seem to recall
reading why somewhere and I've since forgotten.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:47:29 -0600 (CST)
From: jlockett@hanszen.rice.edu (Joseph L Lockett)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (Traveller Mailing List),
Subject: Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
Message-ID: <199603190047.SAA02285@harry-clay.hanszen.rice.edu>

Phillip McGregor asked:
> Then, consider this, even if the Colonies *were* larger in population than
> Terra and the older colonies, could they have realistically managed to grow
> the required population to face off the Vilani in only 300 years? Makes you
> wonder, eh?

I'm pretty sure Rats & Cats makes reference to the Solomani megacorporation
GenAssist, which was founded by the Terran Coordination to assist colonization
efforts by modifying both native and Terran flora and fauna and, ultimately,
humans themselves.  My own Interstellar Wars setting, slowly taking shape,
has many "tuber" colonies near Earth, crash-colonized by GenAssist using
legions of vat-grown clones.  In ensuing decades the original clone-lines
have mingled and varied (though draconian genetic counseling and marriage
permits are still characteristic of the colonial governments).  Many of the
colonial citizens have left their homeworlds to join the Confederation
military, but there's still a great deal of prejudice towards these
mass-produced "spuds."

There's the implication in the very limited Interstellar Wars material that,
once the Vilani overlords were removed, the subject (or lower-caste Vilani)
populations were more than willing to help their conquerors/liberators.
Again, my nascent setting has several such "military colonies", on which
crash innoculation programs strive to make the new government non-lethal
to its workers.  Ethnic problems have sprung up on several worlds, where
vacc-suited or masked occupiers have been interpreted as an insult, "too
good" for the "dirty" commoners....  And there's certainly a submovement
(proto-Solomani-Party) within the military that considers the Vilani just
that: ill-equipped interlopers to be swept out of the way by any means
necessary.  But indiscriminate use of the Terran microbiological arsenal
has been strictly prohibited, both to protect Vilani civilian populations
who may be _needed_ as industrial backup against the incredibly larger
Ziru Sirka and because of moral queasiness on the part of the Secretariat....

In addition, I believe the Solomani probably had assistance from at least a
few, and possibly several, of the minor races (human and otherwise) which
were subjugated by the Vilani.  The Vegans are an obvious candidate, but
I'm sure one or more human minor races (the recently-mentioned Suerrat?)
might well have joined in.  And the Newts would only have huddled in their
office cubicles....

Given that the "canonical" literature describes multiple breakaway movements
and similar disasters besetting the Ziru Sirka in its last days (Vargr
incursions, separatist governors with barbarian armies, etc.), I wonder why
we don't hear more about other proto-governments like the victorious Terrans?
Were they co-opted, or ruthlessly eliminated in the Terran drive for
manifest destiny?  More grist for your conspiracy mill, Phillip....

-----------------------------*-------------------------*-----------------------
   Joseph "Chepe" Lockett    | "Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
 jlockett@hanszen.rice.edu   |  sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett/ |  fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.
-----------------------------*-------------------------*-----------------------


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:44:13 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Ship stuff
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960319034413.006a0ea4@mail.usa.net>

At 12:08 PM 3/18/96 -0500,  "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us> wrote:
>I remember reading in FF&S and in fact I have right here.  On page 62
>under the heading Spacecraft Deckplans, it says "When allocating
>space within the craft, assume that only a portion of the specified
>volume for staterooms, bunks, etc., is used for those fittings per
>se; the remainder should be used for common areas and other
>accomadations for the crew, such as recreation areas, eating spaces,
>and so on."  I assume this includes everything you made rules for in
>your message."Ah ha ha ha ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha...

        Yeah, but the amount of space is ridiculously small. A "Standard"
stateroom has always been 4 Td since the beginning, and that's only 56m^3 ==
16m^2 assuming 3.5m decks (TNE now). So you've got to have room for the
beds, furniture, 'fresher, common area, corridors, etc. Just doesn't seem
like enough.
        As for the stuff about life support -- great explanation of what
basic life support is, and it provides a starting point for expansions. For
example, while I'm in the scout service I'd take MREs and be happy. But when
my lovely bride and I go on our honeymoon cruise, I damn well expect
five-star gourmet meals. Yet under the basic rules both are assumed to
require the same space? I think not. A luxury liner will have large,
well-equipped kitchens, freezers, etc. Really big ones will even have small
"gardens" for fresh food (mostly veggies & herbs), if not an outright "park"
where my beloved and I can ... er, um, anyway.
        There's also no difference in "dead" space between luxury liners and
military vessels. I can assure you, the Navy will want as much capability
crammed into the volume as it can possibly get and still fit people in to
operate it all. Whereas the liners are going to want to make it as
comfortable (_luxury_ liners!) as they can while maximizing their profits
(that also shoots the "standard" ticket prices down ... something I've long
ditched).

        Anyway, Jeff, I really like your proposed rules. I've got a message
stashed away somewhere where somebody went into some detail about different
levels of eating specifically. If you're interested I can dig it up.

        And I agree, adding optional detail is nice.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 630
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 631

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: SDB corrections by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 630 by David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>
  3) Vilani-Solomani Wars by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  4) Cloning and Tanks by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  5) Re: Terran Federation -- Population ? by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  6) Re: TRAVELLER digest 630 by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  7) Terran Fed Population by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  8) Non-Essential Ship Space by Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
  9) Re: Time Spent in Lo Berth by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
 10) Re: TRAVELLER digest 630 by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 11) Ship stuff by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
 12) Re: TRAVELLER digest 630 by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
 13) Re: Ship stuff by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:44:17 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: SDB corrections
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960319034417.00677394@mail.usa.net>

At 04:02 PM 3/18/96 -0500, you wrote:
>The TNE version of the TL12 _Shukugan_ SDB has a design error.  Like
>most GDW-designed craft, the thrust is not sufficient to accelerate
>the ship's mass as rated.  These corrections should be made to the
>ship as presented in the rule books:

        Another correction that I made straight out of the BL box: the
absolutely absurd armament, an active sensor that doesn't even reach a
single hex, and blind MFDs. I replaced the 80-Mj laser turrets with 120-Mj
turrets (slight improvement), upgraded to 3,000km AEMS to a 300,000km AEMS,
and swapped the 60,000km MFDs for 120,000km models. This leaves the standard
"Shukugan" with a 30.58MW deficit. But any moron would know he doesn't need
his contragrav units (needed only for _landing_ in TNE) when he's in a
dogfight in deep space. Shutting those off when they're not actually needed
frees up 40MW.
        Since this was just for BL purposes, I didn't bother with the minor
volume changes involved.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:03:33 GMT
From: David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 630
Message-ID: <314e5a0b.1124040@post.demon.co.uk>

In Traveller Digest 630 raveller@MPGN.COM Darren wrote:
>Subject: Reply to Dave Hipple
>
>Dave
>
>I've not found a UK forum for the game, but I'm still looking.
>
The main UK forum at present is: B R I T I S H  I S L E S  T R A V E L
L E R  S U P P O R T - A British Forum for Traveller - the Game of the
Far Future.

It is run by  Andy Lilly <A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk> who puts out a monthly?
e-mail news letter and is co-ordinating a Traveller event for European
GEN CON Games Fair 1996 4-8 September 1996 Loughborough University.

The other UK source is of course the Signal GK fanzine, and Andy
should have details of this.

Maybe see you at Gencon.

David

---------------------------------------------------------------------
David Burden, Birmingham, UK
Home: http://www.ftech.net/~innocom  Email: david@innocom.demon.co.uk
Work: http://www.sts.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:15:24 -0900
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Vilani-Solomani Wars
Message-ID: <v01540a01ad7427f1539e@[137.229.100.57]>

Your concept of the vilani being regionalized is supported by the Imperium
game; The Terran player is in control of the Terran Confederation, and the
Vilani Player is in charge of that region of vilani space.

The Vilani Player can't even build "super-capital" (DN/BB) class units
until the terrans field them, or the emperor sends them as reinforcements.
Vilani Politics require the governor to show no net loss in economic
factors, and occassionally send ships and troops off to serve elsewhere.



 reference to this in _Survival Margin: Gateway to the New Era_,
and also in New Era's Adventures in the TNE Rule Book; I have seen no
references maximum survivable times, but Project Phoenix is arrainged
around 100 years of coldsleep, and the 75 years from Hard Times to New Era
are survivable.

The Limit appears to be steady power source. See Adv. 3: Twighlight's peak,
where some anchients have been under for 300 000 years!




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:15:30 -0900
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Cloning and Tanks
Message-ID: <v01540a02ad742a35dbd8@[137.229.100.57]>

In response to phil's assertion that clones are useless in figuring
population growth, remember that the TL13/14 cloning is obiously possible,
as Norris' (multiply published) True-Daughter points out.

Just as in S:A&AB, "tanks" could be used to fill in the gaps of needed
persons. Not of nessecity to fully grown adult status... rather grow them
to slightly larger than 2-3 years physical approximate age, then educate
them from there.

Such clones could even be fostered into colonial families easily, as the
most time intesive part of child rearing is handles in the creche facility,
not by the parents: infant/toddler. THey would then be percieved as more
"fully-human" than "product" or "Expendable Person". And also would
integrate more easily into society.



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:18:45 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Terran Federation -- Population ?
Message-ID:  <9603191218.aa15121@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>



Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au> wrote:


>yes, but so what? He had a bigger population base and industrial base to back
>him up!

    I think, that is questionable. How large was his population and
industrial base ?


>But you have no basis for this assumption! You are, in fact, going completely
>*against* current trends. All western industrial countries are now in the

    There is NEVER a basis for assumptions like this. I think any population
between 50 and well over 1000 billion is reasonable.

>See above figures re revised max population of 11 billion ... rate of increase
>is declining even in underdeveloped countries. Your assumptions are *not*

640K are enogh for every one, one car per family is the maximum, in the
year 1950 London is swamped within horse-sh*t all very good assumptions,
made by educated people and they where all *BS*. Nobody knows how the
capability of interstellar travel and the possibility to generate new
colonies will effect birth rates.

And why the "great modern leaders of civilisation" (the European and North
American nations) should continue thier role in the year 2300 ? Perhaps
our decadent and egoistic descendants died out and the people that
had more childs took over :-)

There is only one thing for sure: I don't know what will happen, but
I know that nobody will have expected it.


Thomas Kathmann

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:39:22 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 630
Message-ID: <199603191139.WAA14960@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:54:54 -0600
> From: "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
> Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960318145454.00697a58@pop.interaccess.com>
>
> As it so happens, I am playing in a campaign set in this very period (on the
> "avoid canon debates by preempting it" theory). We did not think of the
> disease angle (one question: why doesn't it work equally well in reverse?),
> but that might explain some things.
>
> Our theory is that the Vilani Empire has a political structure similar to
> Imperial Rome (or actually, 12th century Byzantium is probably closer). The
> governors of each area are pretty much independent operators. They raise
> their own troops and taxes, and send some portion off to the Emperor every
> decade or so. The governor of the area nearest to Terra is ruling over a
> province where the priorities of the Empire (i.e, conquest of other Empires
> by war) cannot be indulged. Therefore, he/she has few resources on hand to
> resist the Terrans when they meet. Socially, the Imperium is decadent and
> politically divided. In our game (we hope), the opportunistic players will
> rush in and give the Vilani a lesson in realpolitik, playing factions off
> against each other, hiring higher tech mercenaries, and marrying into the
> Vilani upper crust like crazy (through threats or treaties). So, the Terrans
> are basically the Huns or the Visigoths of the Roman period, or the Bulgars
> or Crusaders of the Byzantine period.

This sounds eminently reasonable. However (see below) ...
>
> By this reckoning, Terra does not need to have a huge population to overcome
> the Vilani (at first, that is). The governor rules over some 50-60 billions,
> only 5-10% of whom will mobilize for war. The Terrans can mobilize a higher
> percentage of their population to fight the Vilani. Also, given the "Roman"
> model, the Vilani governor may decide that it makes more sense to give the
> Terrans some land in return for peace, after the Terrans plunder some
> outlying planets. Maybe he/she will also hire them into the Vilani military,
> setting the stage for the treason Phil referred to. Both of these courses
> were taken by the Romans, who had a huge advantage in both technology and
> population, in dealing with the barbarians. In the end, though, we know who
> won out.

Historically, the Romans suffered from the terrible plagues of the third (or
was it second?) century, and from recurring problems like this through the
Byzantine period which badly affected their ability to recruit ... why? Simply
because so many people were killed by them! The barbarians they hired were
often given abandoned land (i.e. land depopulated by such plagues on a long
term basis) to farm. So you comparison doesn't really work out when looked at
closely. Still, it's the best I've seen so far ... but when the whole Empire
dumps its forces against the Terrans in the later wars, the problem of their
sheer mass rears its ugly head again. After all, arguably the Allies won WW2
because of their use of inferior tech available in massive numbers and backed
up by superior manpower resources while the Germans (at least) lost with
superior tech (in many ways) but inferior manpower. While this parallel is also
flawed, it punches some holes in the latter stages of yours. Any further ideas?

Phil McGregor


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:14:53 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Terran Fed Population
Message-ID: <199603191214.XAA24717@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:03:28 -0500
> From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
> Message-ID: <s14d4313.086@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
>
> Phillip McGregor writes:
>
> >Well, remember I proposed that the only way the Terran Federation
> >could have beaten the Vilani - who had much greater population and
> >production resources - was to outproduce them? Well, just how many
> >people did the Terran Federation *have*?
>
>    Terra in 2086 AD (the time of first contact) probably has a population
> of around 12 to 15 billion (a good guess to be honest).  By the time of
> the First Interstellar War, that had probably expanded an additional
> 6 to 7 billion, assuming explosive growth on the colony worlds
> (Prometheus and ?).  Grand total: 18 to 22 billion.  While Vilani worlds
> such as Dingir may have had populations in excess of one billion, I doubt
> that the Vilani population of the Rim was all that much larger.  Remember
> to the Vilani, the Solomani Rim was on the far frontier.

But the above figure is outdated, as I pointed out, Terran population is
expected to top out at only 11 billion, down from 13 billion ... and the rate
of population increase is declining. It seems likely that this figure will be
revised down further rather than being revised upward. So no 12-15 billion.
The First Interstellar war starts in 2096, and the max pop size of 11 billion
isn't expected until next century ... so where do the extra 6-7 billion in
offplanet population come from? Considering the small amounts of people that
you could probably dump offplanet to form colonies, what sort of birthrate
would you have to assume to allow for this sort of growth ... and how could
you assume that the planets in question could develop a high tech economic
base when half their population is pregnant all the time?


>    To make matters worse for the Imperium, local governors were
> restricted in their ability to act, based upon the fact that they had to work

Yep, I've got Imperium, too ... with the reversed orientation map compared to
that in Solomani! So what? Sure, it applies to the initial wars ... but see my]
comments on the later interstellar wars when the whole of the Imperium is
mobilised against the Terrans. They'd simply be overwhelmed!

>    Within 300 years, the population of the Terran Confederation would
> have expanded due to two major factors: the natural growth of
> population (to perhaps 86+ billion on Terran and its colonies), and the
> absorption of conquered territories (perhaps another 80+ billion).  This
> figure doesn't even include the DGP hypothesized GenAssist ``Tuber``
> colonies, which would add another perhaps another 80 billion or so
> (again a good guess).  Grand total at the end of the Terran
> Confederation: perhaps 250 billion or more.

Where do you get these figures from? Thin air? Seriously, where *do* you get
them from? I could just as easily say that in 300 years the population of Terra
will be 1 billion. I have as much justification (declining birthrate trends as
societies become more affluent) ... you provide no support for this amazing
level of growth.

Also, get real, the Terrans aren't going to incorporate the conquered Vilani as
easily as you blithely assume ... think Occupied Europe ... think large numbers
of the *much* less than 150 billion "loyal" terran population being tied down
administering and occupying these planets. Even at 1:200 (which, IIRC, was the
average for occupied Europe in WW2) the Terrans have to find 750 million
occupation forces!

>    Given that the Terrans at this point have a TL 13 fleet (the Vilani only
> have TL 12), that they routinely employ robots on their ships, and that
> the Interstellar Wars were primarily *naval* wars, how many people
> would the Terran Confederation need?  I think that 250+ billion would be
> more than enough, especially when you throw in the Vargrs eating
> away at the Imperium's coreward flank (causing the Vilani to keep
> valuable fleet elements tied up away from the action), and the fact that
> many Imperial worlds saw the Terrans as liberators from Vilani
> oppression.

I believe that you are wrong here ... Terra had developed J3 at TL/12 and the
Vilani Ziru Sirka was still stuck with J2 and TL/11. And, as for the use of
Robots - seems to have damn little effect on the size of crews designed by
any of the three systems available! And, in any case, there aren't 250 billion!

And there's still not 250 billion!

>    Two things here would be mitigating factors: one, the introduction of
> artifical wombs and other technology that make it possible for women
> to continue their careers with less disruption; also, the likeihood that
> many governments encouraged women to have more babies based on
> the fact that the Terrans were so outnumbered by the Imperium.  This
> ``encouragement`` would not only take the form of ads that appeal to
> patriotism, but also measures like the outlawing of certain birth control
> devices, and of course most forms of abortion.  This would have likely
> caused a *major* transformation culturally in Terran society, and not
> necessarily to a model in which the women stay ``barefoot and
> pregnant.``

But cloning is not available. Artificial Wombs are mentioned nowhere in any
of the materials I have for CTRav, MTrav or TNE. And they would be more
expensive (inevitably) that live births ... and *still* require lots and lots
of people to raise all those babies to useful adulthood. Note that, according
to canon, Memory *erasure* isn't available to TL/14 and Memory Dupe (partial)
not until TL/18 ... so all those babies have to be raised in the old fashioned
way even if they are vat born.

> and the conquered Vilani populations made up as much as two-thirds of
> the Terran Confederation, then Estigaribbia would have had no trouble
> marshalling enough support to take over the government, especially if
> he also garnered support from Terran and Terran colony naval officers
> who felt as he did.

But, as I have pointed out, there is no evidence that the Terrans ever had such
a population.

>    We might also rightly conclude that a major cultural transformation had
> taken place during the three centuries of warfare.  In the Terran
> Confederation of the late 23rd century, the military does not think of itself
> as being subordinate to the civilian government--indeed Estigaribbia was
> probably officially relieved of command by the government--an order
> that was ignored by Estigaribbia and his fellow officers.  It is possible
> that the Terran Confederation had developed a kind of warrior-elite class
> similar to that found in old Prussia or Japan, and that the population as a
> whole looked up to this warrior-elite as their protectors.  This would also
> explain why there was no revolt of Terra after the coup.  Given the
> *apparent* long odds the Terrans faced, the development of such a
> class would be a natural outgrowth.

*Exactly* what I have proposed ... and I suggest that it is this *treason* is
the reason for the situation. Estigaribbia didn;t have enough forces of his
own to oppose the Home Fleet, but allied himself treasonously with the Vilani
in return for being declared Emperor! I also assume that all the forces tied
down on occupation duty were loyalists and that all the officers sent off to
govern the Imperium prior to the coup were as well ... so the opposition was
crippled to start. And what was the first news of the coup brought by?
Estigaribbia's Jump-3 capable ships who used their treason to shatter the
defenders who, as well, had been scattered widely while Estrigarribia's had
been concentrated. Wonderful thing being the CinC!

So, the rest of the "histiry" we have is a lie as well, why not assume that the
population is. My explanation is that the Vilani were still using man-operated
(or overseen) machines in factories while the Terrans were using completely
roboticised factories of tremendous output, and that they simply buried the
Vilani in mass produced high tech weapons and few troops. It fits the facts as
well as anything else!

Phil

> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:47:29 -0600 (CST)
> From: jlockett@hanszen.rice.edu (Joseph L Lockett)
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM (Traveller Mailing List),
> Subject: Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
> Message-ID: <199603190047.SAA02285@harry-clay.hanszen.rice.edu>
>
> Phillip McGregor asked:
> > Then, consider this, even if the Colonies *were* larger in population than
> > Terra and the older colonies, could they have realistically managed to grow
> > the required population to face off the Vilani in only 300 years? Makes you
> > wonder, eh?
>
> I'm pretty sure Rats & Cats makes reference to the Solomani megacorporation
> GenAssist, which was founded by the Terran Coordination to assist colonization
> efforts by modifying both native and Terran flora and fauna and, ultimately,
> humans themselves.  My own Interstellar Wars setting, slowly taking shape,
> has many "tuber" colonies near Earth, crash-colonized by GenAssist using
> legions of vat-grown clones.  In ensuing decades the original clone-lines
> have mingled and varied (though draconian genetic counseling and marriage
> permits are still characteristic of the colonial governments).  Many of the
> colonial citizens have left their homeworlds to join the Confederation
> military, but there's still a great deal of prejudice towards these
> mass-produced "spuds."

Yep, but I think we must regard all this as one of the "non-canon" developments
by DGP. I've never seen the "Rats & Cats" supplement ... which, given the
generally lousy distribution for DGP stuff here in Oz would seem to indicate it
must have been quite late in the piece, in MTrav terms. You see, as I've
explained above, cloning of body parts isn't even possible until TL/13 ...
something the Terrans didn't reach until the very end (or after, IIRC) the
collapse of the Ziru Sirka. Ergo, R&C is non-canon as it contradicts specific
TL data in MTRav Referee's Companion. Also note that this is made worse by teh
fact that Partial Memory Dupe isn't available until TL/18! So even if the
clones could be made, then there was no way that they could be force grown and
given adult personalities ... which means that all the adult pop of the colony
would have to spend all their time cleaning their nappies and bottle feeding
them. Not on, if you think about it/

> There's the implication in the very limited Interstellar Wars material that,
> once the Vilani overlords were removed, the subject (or lower-caste Vilani)
> populations were more than willing to help their conquerors/liberators.

I have never seen such an implication. Where is it so implied? In any case, it
surely couldn't apply 100% until after the final collapse ... after all, the
lower castes couldn't be sure that their masters wouldn't win eventually!

> In addition, I believe the Solomani probably had assistance from at least a
> few, and possibly several, of the minor races (human and otherwise) which
> were subjugated by the Vilani.  The Vegans are an obvious candidate, but
> I'm sure one or more human minor races (the recently-mentioned Suerrat?)
> might well have joined in.  And the Newts would only have huddled in their
> office cubicles....

Possible, but how many "people" did *they* have ... and what TLs? And where is
it mentioned?

> Given that the "canonical" literature describes multiple breakaway movements
> and similar disasters besetting the Ziru Sirka in its last days (Vargr
> incursions, separatist governors with barbarian armies, etc.), I wonder why
> we don't hear more about other proto-governments like the victorious Terrans?
> Were they co-opted, or ruthlessly eliminated in the Terran drive for
> manifest destiny?  More grist for your conspiracy mill, Phillip....

You mean to say you think I don't have enough conspiracy theories *already*!

Phil

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:09:31 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Non-Essential Ship Space
Message-ID: <9603191409.AA19648@ lrmi.com>

2300's Star Cruiser design system has an interesting idea -- a Comfort
Rating based on cubic meters of habitat per crewbeing.  25m^3 was a minimum,
and with gravity gave "0" comforst.  The chart went up t 150m^3.  Too little
space withouut gravity had an adverse effect on crew efficiency.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:29:16 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Time Spent in Lo Berth
Message-ID: <199603191529.JAA27034@osh1.datasync.com>

ON: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 03:34:28 +1300
lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B lynch-Blosse)
Wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Just a quick question regarding low-berths and deep sleep. Where in the
>rules does it state the length of time one can spend in a low berth?. Is it
>possible to extend your live by a few 10's of years by periodically
>entering a low berth? My guess is that the length of time would depend on
>the persons endurance(?) value. Presumably the higher the value the more
>likly they are to make the required saving throw at the end of the stasis.
>
>Any thoughts or comments on this are welcomed

This brings up another interesting question.  Is there a minimum amount of
time that you can spend in a lo berth, and exactly how much do you age in a
lo berth (1 sec per day, one sec per year, etc)?  If an average person (70
year life) slept every evening (8 hours) in a lo berth, would they add years
on to their life?  The amount of time spent sleeping would be equal to 23.33
years.  This would also have an effect on aging rolls.  This could have some
effects on the adventuring age of PC's.


Paul  {tiger}

"Ravage, pillage, maim, destroy, and put large hickeys on all the fair
damsals!!"
        - Eric the Aweful


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:25:32 -0600 (CST)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 630
Message-ID: <199603192025.OAA27433@ConnectI.com>

>        Yeah, but the amount of space is ridiculously small. A "Standard"
>stateroom has always been 4 Td since the beginning, and that's only 56m^3 ==
>16m^2 assuming 3.5m decks (TNE now). So you've got to have room for the
>beds, furniture, 'fresher, common area, corridors, etc. Just doesn't seem
>like enough.

All too true.  I used to figure on a 4 ton stateroom being about 4.5m by 3m
allotting 1 ton displacement for common areas. (this is garnered from the
deck plans from Book 7 etc. with 1 ton being 2 x 1.5m squares.)  Still to
look at a room that is 3m wide (almost 10ft) by 4.5m long (15ft) (for the
metric impaired) leaves a relatively spacious stateroom (150 sqft).
Assuming things like the bed folds away, as does the desk etc.  Not really
any room for things like guests etc, but from a military standpoint
extremely roomy.  In modern US ships the crewmember gets about 72 cuft
8'x3'x3' to sleep in with about another 8 cuft for a footlocker.  You cram
as many in as possible and then give them a comman area to mess/lounge in.
Now TNE uses the 4 ton stateroom as the large variety and it claims that the
2 ton small stateroom can be used fro double occupancy.  That would mean a
new stateroom that is 3mx3m or 10'x10'.  Unfortunately now two must share
probably with bunks.  It is livible esp as you are rarely in your cabin but
rather on duty for 12 hours a shift.  You then sleep for 8 and only have to
lounge for 4 hours.

The end result is that yes more tonnage is needed for staterooms etc.
especially on non-military vessels.  On military vessels you can use such
areas as hangers etc for extra lounge areas.  Unfortunately Spaceships don't
have decks that are pretty much wasted on model sailing ships.

>        There's also no difference in "dead" space between luxury liners and
>military vessels. I can assure you, the Navy will want as much capability
>crammed into the volume as it can possibly get and still fit people in to
>operate it all. Whereas the liners are going to want to make it as
>comfortable (_luxury_ liners!) as they can while maximizing their profits
>(that also shoots the "standard" ticket prices down ... something I've long
>ditched).
>

Actually I offer a differing point of view.  Although the Navy would like to
cram people in like sardines.  They also acknowledge that the poeple must
have room to do their two primary duties.  First of all fight and repair
battle damage, and secondly perform constant maintainence on the ship
(mostly to keep everyone busy).  The Navy would likely install redundant
components where ever possible and will almost always make sure that every
component can be services while under weigh.  Then end result is a good deal
of maintainance space (which I have always allocated (a 100 ton power plant
actually is only 60 tons in size, but requires 40 tons of work area around it).

Anyway I hope that this helps.
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above should not be interperted as
doctrine, dogma, or anything else.  However, if you really like
it then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 08:13:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Ship stuff
Message-ID: <TkP2kD1w165w@krypton.rain.com>

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:

>        Yeah, but the amount of space is ridiculously small. A
>"Standard" stateroom has always been 4 Td since the beginning, and
>that's only 56m^3 == 16m^2 assuming 3.5m decks (TNE now). So you've
>got to have room for the beds, furniture, 'fresher, common area,
>corridors, etc. Just doesn't seem like enough.

Well, my last apartment was *smaller* than that and wasn't all that
cramped.

Remember, 16 m^2 is 4m by 4m or a bit over 13 feet on a side. I had a
*huge* 'fresher (due to regulations about handicapped access), and the
rest of the place was adequate as long as you didn't have much
furniture of your own. The included furniture was a bed with a
"pedestal" base (ie storage drawers under it), a wardrobe, a desk &
chair, a nightstand, a dorm fridge and a microwave. As well as several
"kitchen cabinets" in the area with the sink, counter, fridge &
microwave.

It was "cosy", but not cramped. I was able to add a second desk (for
the computer) and two bookcases and still have space to move around
easily.

Just stripping out the "mini-kitchen" aspect would have made a marked
increase in free space.

So the 4 tons for the stateroom is reasonable, even if it gives up
*some* space for corridors and common areas. But I wouldn't count on it
being more than 10% unless you go to the "fresher is down the hall"
style. If you do, then you could probably manage 50%.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:20:30 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 630
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960320012030.006a6fcc@mail.usa.net>

At 03:22 PM 3/19/96 -0500, David C. Broussard wrote:
>>        There's also no difference in "dead" space between luxury liners and
>>military vessels. I can assure you, the Navy will want as much capability
>>crammed into the volume as it can possibly get and still fit people in to
>>operate it all. Whereas the liners are going to want to make it as
>>comfortable (_luxury_ liners!) as they can while maximizing their profits
>>(that also shoots the "standard" ticket prices down ... something I've long
>>ditched).
>>
>
>Actually I offer a differing point of view.  Although the Navy would like to
>cram people in like sardines.  They also acknowledge that the poeple must
>have room to do their two primary duties.

        True, but I'd still bet the Navy has less "waste" space allocated to
people than does a luxury liner. Obviously, a carrier is going to have
gobs'o'volume in the hangar deck, but as far as lounges, bars, spacious
cabins ... nope. I'd just like rules that differentiate more between various
types of ships. Les Howie mentioned something about a "comfort rating" based
on the waste space _allocated to people_ -- I can see a range of values.
Really low affects crew morale and efficiency; slightly higher is bearable;
passengers expect more; luxury passengers expect gobs.

        It would also depend on time -- long voyages in extremely cramped
confines would really affect morale, but the a two-day trip to a nearby moon
would be fine.

 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:20:38 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Ship stuff
Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960320012038.006adb7c@mail.usa.net>

At 05:51 PM 3/19/96 -0500, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:
>
>>        Yeah, but the amount of space is ridiculously small. A
>>"Standard" stateroom has always been 4 Td since the beginning, and
>>that's only 56m^3 == 16m^2 assuming 3.5m decks (TNE now). So you've
>>got to have room for the beds, furniture, 'fresher, common area,
>>corridors, etc. Just doesn't seem like enough.
>
>Well, my last apartment was *smaller* than that and wasn't all that
>cramped.

        Your apartment had less than 170 square feet? I find that
incredible. You're a better man than I.

/*snip*/

>So the 4 tons for the stateroom is reasonable, even if it gives up
>*some* space for corridors and common areas. But I wouldn't count on it
>being more than 10% unless you go to the "fresher is down the hall"

        You'd need much more than 10% -- have you looked at any deckplans?
And while your apartment may not have seemed _too_ small, try staying in it
for two weeks, without being able to go outside ... just walking out your
front door gives you the mental "elbow room" to be psychologically
comforting. If you actually had to live in that tiny space for most of your
day, except to walk a few meters down a corridor to another room where you
worked, you'd be much less happy.

        I'm not saying the staterooms themselves are too small _for a
stateroom_ ... there's just not enough _other_ room allowed for all the
other stuff that allegedly comes out of that volume.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Faith is not belief without knowledge.
   Faith is trust without reservation." -- unknown


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 631
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 632

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Ship stuff by StarWolf <myhre@sn.no>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 630 by aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
  3) Brilliant Lances Scenario 1 by John Lloyd <John.Lloyd@cbr.atr.com.au>
  4) Re: TRAVELLER digest 631 (Time in low berth) by Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
  5) Question by paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
  6) Re: TRAVELLER digest 631 by paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
  7) Re: TRAVELLER digest 631 by paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
  8) Re: time spent in low berths by Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
  9) Re: Terra vs. "The Gov" by "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
 10) RE: Andy Long by Andy Long <andylong@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
 11) TL12 SDB Jump Shuttle by Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 12) RFT text in E-Mail by Andy Long <andylong@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
 13) Re: TRAVELLER digest 631 by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 14) Time Spent in Low Berth by lewis@chara.gsu.edu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:01:52 -0800
From: StarWolf <myhre@sn.no>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Ship stuff
Message-ID: <31501DE0.4B6C@sn.no>

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> Wrote:

>         You'd need much more than 10% -- have you looked at any deckplans?
> And while your apartment may not have seemed _too_ small, try staying in it
> for two weeks, without being able to go outside ... just walking out your
> front door gives you the mental "elbow room" to be psychologically
> comforting. If you actually had to live in that tiny space for most of your
> day, except to walk a few meters down a corridor to another room where you
> worked, you'd be much less happy.

In the Norwegian navy we got a sub class called ULA. There the crew has to
share the bunks, and that sub is really cramped. Still they are out 14 days
at a time.

I was on board a missile patrol boat and bunked with 13 others in a bunkarea
not larger than a large stateroom in Traveller.

When I design warships I install small staterooms to the officers and bunks
to the general crew.


--
------------+-----------------+--------------------------------------
Roger Myhre |myhre@sn.no      |http://www.sn.no/~myhre/
Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins"
are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:58:15 -0700
From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 630
Message-ID: <199603200658.XAA21351@scratchy.itsnet.com>


>From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

>Subject: Terran Federation -- Population?

>> From: aqw@itsnet.com (Aerron Winsor)
>> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>> Subject: TF and ship design

>> >From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
>> >To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
>> >Subject: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
>>
>>
>> In the game Imperium the Villani empire was being torn apart by civil wars
>> at the thim of first contact.  the sector govener had to fight those pesky
>> terrans on his own.
>
>yes, but so what? He had a bigger population base and industrial base to back
>him up!
>
he had 6 worlds and 7 outposts in the local area, each providing 1 Resource
Unit (RU) Plus 10 RU from off map.
the terrans had 3 worlds (each providing 8 RU) and 3 outposts (each
providing 1 RU) Plus 3 outposts ready to be placed.

imperial: 23
Terrran: 27 (plus 3 as soon as they can be shipped out)

starting forces...

Imperial:
1 cruiser
2 light crusiers
4 destroyers
2 scouts

the empire will provide replacements at the rate of 1 shipe every 2 years
crusiers and heavyer may not be produced localy

Terran:
1 light cruiser
2 destroyers
6 scouts
1 missle boat

during the course of the campain a civil war( in the Imperium) is very
likley (I cant remember a game in which it didn't happen.

>> >was to outproduce them? Well, just how many people did the Terran Federation
>> >*have*?
>>
>> at the start, three "homeworlds" and three outposts say 10-20 billion?
>
>OK, where does it say this?
page 16 the pop is a guess


>Well, yes, but your wife is going well against the trend. Current estimates are
not in Utah :)

>> >Wait a minute! This is only three hundred years away! How many people
are the
>> >likely to be in the colonies in 300 years? How many colonies? Given that the
>
>> assumiong a doubling every 20 years a good guess given present
>> birthrates...starting in 2000 with 8 billion (projected figure pehaps
>> outdated) 262144 billion
>> double evey 30 years:8192 billion
>> doulbe every 40 years:1448 billion
>> double evey 50 years(very low guess):512 billion
>
>But you have no basis for this assumption! You are, in fact, going completely
>*against* current trends.

true, but those numbers are what *could* happen doulbling evey hundred years
still gives 64 billion, a fair number even in the third imperium.

also many women decide to have childrenafter they have spent some time on
their career. with advances in medicen this could be more and more possible
(as in Weber and Whites book Insurection).  another option is what my wife
wants, to raise her childernand *then* have a career.

I'm not saying this will happen, just that it could.



>> and all those FreeTrader families all the family on the ship.
>
>Yep, all those families where every extra mouth costs so many thousand credits
>in life support every Jump! Every extra mouth which takes up cargo/passenger
>space. And the number of Free Trader ships ... miniscule compared to the
>planetary populations!
looks it up... yes, it has been a while... I normaly play GURPS Traveller
in the NE basic rules it does say so, but in FFS it makes no mention of it.
I would make that a yearly or perhaps monthy charge, per jump just doen't
make sense to me. for example, what about SDBs they never jump, so do they
never need to pay this charge?


>
>> It could be, I would have to see the history more closly where can I find it?
>
>If you're really interested, I can repost it ... tho it may take awhile as it's
>not is ASCII format and will have to be converted.

I would like to see it thanks.



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 18:40:00 EDT
From: John Lloyd <John.Lloyd@cbr.atr.com.au>
To: "'traveller@mpgn.com'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Brilliant Lances Scenario 1
Message-ID: <314FA558@smtp-gw.cbr.atr.com.au>


I've just finished playing scenario 1 from Brilliant Lances.

Is it possible for the Imperials to win?

It seems to me that if the Zhodanis speed through the map as fast as
possible with their sensors on active it is impossible for the Imperials
to do enough damage before they leave the other side with the base
location.

John Lloyd
john.lloyd@cbr.atr.com.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:03:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 631 (Time in low berth)
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960320105327.9227A-100000@trondviggo.nvg.unit.no>

> From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
> Subject: Re: Time Spent in Lo Berth
>
> and exactly how much do you age in a
> lo berth (1 sec per day, one sec per year, etc)?  If an average person (70
> year life) slept every evening (8 hours) in a lo berth, would they add years
> on to their life?  The amount of time spent sleeping would be equal to 23.33
> years.

Well, I think "sleeping" in a low berth can be looked upon as being more
or less frozen, that is, aging is negligible; thus sleeping in a low berth
at night would see to it that you didn't age at night, but you wouldn't
get any actual sleep either.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:48:53 +0000
From: paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <v01510103ad7591e97361@[128.243.213.247]>

Does anyone own, or have played the Dark Stryder Campaign box set for the
Star Wars RPG?

Would the material in it be suitable for conversion over to a large
Traveller adventure as stand alone or for incorporation into a larger
campaign?

Is any of the Star Wars material suitable?

I thought i'd get the opinion of you guys out there before going out and
buying any of it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Radford                 | paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk
Department Of Immunology     |
Queens Medical Centre        |
Nottingham                   | No web page :(
England                      | MI (UK): Lynx, Acolyte of Shroud & SSS member
(+44) 0115 9249924 ext 43494 |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Well, this's buggered your plans for conquering the universe eh? Ha! My
friend the astro b*st*rd, time for talkies" - Bad Taste
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cutting between the lines" - 47th Imperial Raider Squadron (BITS TCS PBEM)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:57:40 +0000
From: paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 631
Message-ID: <v01510104ad7593a1d893@[128.243.213.247]>


>It is run by  Andy Lilly <A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk> who puts out a monthly?
>e-mail news letter and is co-ordinating a Traveller event for European
>GEN CON Games Fair 1996 4-8 September 1996 Loughborough University.

So, just how many BITS people will be going to Euro GENCON? Anyone coming
over from the rest of Europe, USA, Canada?

More the merrier :)

We don't want to have "hard pressed" tournament refs sitting twiddling
their thumbs all day Saturday. :(



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul "Lynx" Radford          | paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk
Department Of Immunology     |
Queens Medical Centre        |
Nottingham                   | No web page :(
England                      | MI (UK): Lynx, Acolyte of Shroud & SSS member
(+44) 0115 9249924 ext 43494 |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Well, this's buggered your plans for conquering the universe eh? Ha! My
friend the astro b*st*rd, time for talkies" - Bad Taste
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cutting between the lines" - 47th Imperial Raider Squadron (BITS TCS PBEM)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:13:37 +0000
From: paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 631
Message-ID: <v01510105ad75959b4dfd@[128.243.213.247]>


>lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B lynch-Blosse)
>Wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Just a quick question regarding low-berths and deep sleep. Where in the
>>rules does it state the length of time one can spend in a low berth?. Is it
>>possible to extend your live by a few 10's of years by periodically
>>entering a low berth? My guess is that the length of time would depend on
>>the persons endurance(?) value. Presumably the higher the value the more
>>likly they are to make the required saving throw at the end of the stasis.
>>
>>Any thoughts or comments on this are welcomed
>

Paul (Tiger) wrote:

>This brings up another interesting question.  Is there a minimum amount of
>time that you can spend in a lo berth, and exactly how much do you age in a
>lo berth (1 sec per day, one sec per year, etc)?  If an average person (70
>year life) slept every evening (8 hours) in a lo berth, would they add years
>on to their life?  The amount of time spent sleeping would be equal to 23.33
>years.  This would also have an effect on aging rolls.  This could have some
>effects on the adventuring age of PC's.


As low berths slow the basal metabolic rate of an individual, then yes it
should be possible to extend the life of a person quite considerably. A 70
year old will have slept for approximately 23-24 years of their life.
Possibly more in my case when i've got to 70 (if i get to 70). :)

Even if low berths only halved the metabolic rate during hibernation, then
12 years could be added to an average life span. I suspect that the
metabolic rate will be slowed more than this adding on more years, during
hibernation in low births.

Do low births still have an inherent risk requiring medical personnel to
monitor the wake up procedure? This could work out costly having a
qualified medic on call to wake you up every morning. Even with a medic,
how often does it all go wrong and waking up leaves the person dead?

Does the risk of low births justify the long term effect? You may get a 10
or so extra years but it won't do any good if you don't get that far.

Paul

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul "Lynx" Radford          | paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk
Department Of Immunology     |
Queens Medical Centre        |
Nottingham                   | No web page :(
England                      | MI (UK): Lynx, Acolyte of Shroud & SSS member
(+44) 0115 9249924 ext 43494 |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Well, this's buggered your plans for conquering the universe eh? Ha! My
friend the astro b*st*rd, time for talkies" - Bad Taste
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cutting between the lines" - 47th Imperial Raider Squadron (BITS TCS PBEM)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:07:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: time spent in low berths
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD.3.91.960320080356.14231A-100000@tusk.lm.com>

paul wrote:
>This brings up another interesting question.  Is there a minimum amount of
>time that you can spend in a lo berth, and exactly how much do you age in a
>lo berth (1 sec per day, one sec per year, etc)?  If an average person (70
>year life) slept every evening (8 hours) in a lo berth, would they add years
>on to their life?  The amount of time spent sleeping would be equal to 23.33
>years.  This would also have an effect on aging rolls.  This could have some
>effects on the adventuring age of PC's.


The only thing I'd like to point out here is that if the body is in
stasis, the normal things that take place during sleep don't.  Spending 8
hours a night in a low berth would not be the same as gettning 8 hours of
non-hibernation sleep.  One would still have to find time to engage in
normal sleep.  Yes, you might be able to add 23 years to your life, but
you will also have to "sleep" a total of 16 hours a day, give or take.
Not a very viable way to extend life.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/
http://home.fish.net.au/~elric/

'No! Do...or do not...there is no *try*' --Yoda
_______________________________________________________



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:48:33 -0600
From: "John A. King" <jking@interaccess.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Terra vs. "The Gov"
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960320144833.00698a0c@pop.interaccess.com>

[Roman history vas a vis Traveller removed]

>Historically, the Romans suffered from the terrible plagues of the third (or
>was it second?) century, and from recurring problems like this through the
>Byzantine period which badly affected their ability to recruit ... why? Simply
>because so many people were killed by them! The barbarians they hired were
>often given abandoned land (i.e. land depopulated by such plagues on a long
>term basis) to farm. So you comparison doesn't really work out when looked at
>closely. Still, it's the best I've seen so far ... but when the whole Empire
>dumps its forces against the Terrans in the later wars, the problem of their
>sheer mass rears its ugly head again. After all, arguably the Allies won WW2
>because of their use of inferior tech available in massive numbers and backed
>up by superior manpower resources while the Germans (at least) lost with
>superior tech (in many ways) but inferior manpower. While this parallel is also
>flawed, it punches some holes in the latter stages of yours. Any further ideas?

Yes, you are correct. Our theories only cover the early stages of Solomani
expansion. The "massive numbers" theory might work; are the Vilani
socialized against cloning? Maybe the Solomani used WW2 Soviet-style
strategy and tactics. After all, it worked in WW2. But, see below, since at
some times the Solomani seem to be inferior and at other times superior to
the Vilani.

Another point: are we all (the list) agreed that Solomani TL tops out at 13
vs. the Vilani 12? If so, when are meson guns invented? I saw somewhere that
they also provided a huge moral adavantage to the Solomani and that the
Vilani (at that time) were helpless against them.

How about this for an off the wall theory:

The Solomani, during periods of peace, take positions in the Vilani Imperium
as administrators, mercenaries, etc. and help prop up the Vilani against the
Vargr, internal dissidents, and other struggles. The Vilani have to forfeit
a large portion of central goverment revenues to their governors, while the
stronger (i.e. more central) Solomani government can spend more on R&D,
since the have cut out the middleman (simply by virtue of having colonies
cloe to the home world) more than the Vilani. Maybe a group of Solomani
space marines could be a kind of "Praetorian Guard" for the Emperor.  Over
time, Solomani are rewarded with citizenship, lands, titles, etc. We all
assume Estigaribbia was a *Solomani* admiral. Maybe he was Solomani-born,
serving in the *Vilani* Navy. He convinced his fleet to make a grab for the
Throne, and brought in his countrymen (what do you call others from your
planet? Worldmen? Planetmen?) as back up. So now we have the Solomani and a
Vilani fleet together. Is this enough to defeat the Vilani? I don't know. If
you take this, plus the idea that the Solomani may have agents at high
levels in the Vilani government, I think it is possible, even if the
Confederation does not have a massive population.

If the Vilani government was thrown into chaos by Solomani agents, many
Solomani in high position defected, and a few Solomani ships were equipped
with meson guns (these ships are screened by Estigaribbia's Vilani fleet), I
think it is possible that the government would topple.

Two points of problem:
1. Why would the Vilani let a Solomani be an Admiral of a powerful fleet?
Maybe the Vilani kept hostages, used their own agents, or tried to co-opt
Estigaribbia (I'll call him The Big E from now on)with riches, etc. I don't
think that this is that big a problem, becuse in this theory, The Big E is
only acting like a Vilani (taking his shot at the throne). It just so
happens his people have a super-weapon or two as well.

2. Tech stuff: Can anyone back up this stuff from a tech perspective? I
don't have my source material available right now.

As always, this stuff will be played out (although we are a long way from
the Rule of Man), so any comments are appreciated. I'm sure that there are
*lots* of problems I haven't thought about.

Thanks,


John A. King
jking @interaccess.com

"Scientists are Peeping Toms at the keyhole of eternity."
- Arthur Koestler


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:21:39 +-400
From: Andy Long <andylong@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
To: "'traveller@mpgn.com'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>,
Subject: RE: Andy Long
Message-ID: <01BB169B.FA2CC2C0@csa029.emirates.net.ae>

Too many people to mention have done me the favour of pointing out that I'm
producing garbage in the XBOAT and TRAVELLER mailing lists. Mark Seeman has
responded to me telling me how he fixed HIS problem. This is a test to see
if I've got it right. If I haven't, please bear with me as I experiment.

Andy


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:23:43 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TL12 SDB Jump Shuttle
Message-ID: <199603201723.LAA25002@natasha.itlabs.umn.edu>

---------------------------------------
TL-12 High-Performance SDB Jump Shuttle
---------------------------------------

This odd starship design was originally appropriated by the planetary
flotilla of the Jewell/Jewell system shortly after the Fourth Frontier
War.  Experiences in that war caused the local navy to decide that it
would be desirable to have a number of jump-capable craft under their
direct control as a flexible defense force against Zhodani invasion.
Normally, the textbook solution is to assign a number of corvettes or
destroyer-escorts to this mission, backing up SDBs in pre-arranged
defensive positions throughout the system.

Instead, the Jewell Navy chose to build a number of specialized "jump
shuttles" to give a select number of their system defense boats short
range jump capability without restricting their ability to maneuver.
While this defeats the basic tenet of SDB design, it was considered
more economical and flexible than building tech-12 system corvettes
from scratch.  For instance, the shuttle can be used to recover
disabled or damaged SDBs from the outer system and return them to base
for repair.  However, this vehicle almost costs as much as a second SDB.

This craft takes advantage of the standard jump shuttle dock located
on the stern of the Shukugan.  When docked, it completely blocks the
SDB's maneuver drive, so all power and reaction mass are diverted to
the shuttle's large engines.  A total of 1578 MW is provided by the
host SDB to run the shuttle active sensor and maneuver drive.  When
not docked, the shuttle only has enough power to accelerate itself
to four gee.  Both craft are streamlined.

The ship's bridge is located in a blister on the starboard side of
the craft, giving it a view which is somewhat blocked by the mass of
the SDB when docked.  Jumps are coordinated from this bridge, and it
is able to assume maneuver control of the docked craft if necessary.
Typically, the shuttle is commanded by an officer with the rank of
sublieutenant.  When docked, the captain of the shuttle is considered
the chief engineer of the combined vehicle.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

UP "SDB Jump Tug"               SDB/UP Shukugan
 --                     -1       --                     -1
 --                  TL-12       --                  TL-12
 --                    --        --                  FC:-4
 --                    --       L(x2)2:1-1-0-0     M:2(10)
A:8 P:4 Msk      (S) J1 G4*     A:8 P:4 Msk     (SP) J1 G4
AV:3                   --       AV:3                   --
 --                      3       --                     10

The second listing represents the docked configuration of the SDB
and tug.  The SDB in Battle Rider has the 1.5x price multiplier
for being a "battle rider" without tender.  Battle Rider price was
computed as (SDB/1.5 + tug).

GENERAL
  Displacement:  200 tons      Hull Armor:  101
  Length:        21 meters     Volume:     2800 cubic meters
  Target Size:   S             Tech Level:   12
  Config'n.:     Box SL
  Price:         MCr 193.37
  Mass (Loaded/Empty): 3877.9/3783.4 metric tons.
                       (11465 metric tons with docked loaded SDB)

ENGINEERING
  Power Plant:       825.7 MW Fusion (48.6 MW/hit), 1 year duration
                      (1578 MW additional power when docked)
  Jump Performance:  3 (840 kL fuel); 1 with docked SDB
  G-Rating:          [undocked] 4G (190 MW/G), CG Lifters (20 MW)
                     [docked]   4G (570 MW/G), CG Lifters (20 MW)
  G-Turns:           [undocked] 23.9 (59.3 with jump fuel), 23.7 kL ea.
                     [docked]   40 (51.9 with jump fuel), 71.2 kL ea.
                      (docked includes SDB maneuver fuel tankage)
  Maint:             136

ELECTRONICS
  Computer:  3 x TL12Fb (0.8 MW ea.)
  Commo:     1 x 1000 AU maser (infinite, 0.6 MW)
             1 x  300 Mm radio (10 hex, 10 MW)
  Avionics:  TL10+ Avionics
  Sensors:   PEMS fixed array 120 Mm (4 hex, 0.15 MW)
             AEMS 240 Mm (8 hex, 24 MW)
              (when undocked, only enough power provided to reach 120 Mm;
               8 MW shortfall)
  Controls:  5 x Bridge Workstations, 9 x other workstations
  ECM/ECCM:  EM Masking (2.8 MW)

ARMAMENT
  None.

ACCOMODATIONS
  Life Support:   Extended (0.56 MW)
                  Artificial Grav (3G, 14 MW)
  Crew:           15 (2 x Maneuver, 1 x Electronics, 1 x Maintenance,
                  9 x Engineering, 2 x Command)
  Accomodations:  1 x Sm Stateroom (double-occupancy; 0.0005 MW ea.)
                  5 x Sm Stateroom (multiple-occupancy; 0.0005 MW ea.)
  Cargo:          none
  Airlocks:       2

No purification (uses SDB plant).  Standard fuel scoops.

SYSTEMS
  LS-9H; ELS-4H; PP-17H; JD-5H; MD-3H; CG-1H; EMM-1H; EMMR-(2h); SSR-(2h);
  AG-(3h); Others-(1h)

DAMAGE TABLES:
  AREA    SURFACE                 INT. EXPLOSION
  1       1:AL                    Hold
  2-5                             1-4: Qtrs, 5-20: Hold
  6-7     1-3: Ant                1-12: Qtrs, 13-20: Hold
  8-9     1-3: Ant, 4: EMMR       1-15: Elec, 16-17: Qtrs, 18-20: Hold
  10      1-14: Ant, 15-16: EMMR  1-5: Elec, 6-20: Hold
  11      1-14: Ant, 15-16: EMMR  Hold
  12-15   1-3: Ant, 4: EMMR       1-9: Hold, 10-20: Eng
  16-19                           1-5: Hold, 6-20: Eng
  20                              Eng

This entire craft is considered to be a standard module which is custom-
built for the Shukugan-class SDB.  Therefore, according to the RC Equipment
Guide, small-craft grapples are not necessary for the ships to achieve a
hard dock.  Other 2800 kL box configuration modules could be designed for
the SDB and assumed to be custom built, but remember that the docking point
blocks the Shukugan's maneuver drive.

Design is inspired by the original jump shuttle in _Traders & Gunboats_.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:

>        Another correction that I made straight out of the BL box: the
>absolutely absurd armament, an active sensor that doesn't even reach a
>single hex, and blind MFDs.

YES!  I couldn't *believe* the inadequate active sensor on the SDB when
I looked at the design.  Ugh.  That's why I gave the jump shuttle such a
nice active sensor -- the ship really needs it.  Another gripe -- who
put a purification plant in a ship with *no jump drive*?

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonn0015@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:15:49 +-400
From: Andy Long <andylong@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
To: "'Traveller'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>, "'xboat'" <xboat@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RFT text in E-Mail
Message-ID: <01BB16BB.BED2C4C0@csa029.emirates.net.ae>

One more time. How's this?

Andy


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:41:20 -0600 (CST)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 631
Message-ID: <199603202041.OAA03115@ConnectI.com>

Dave Golden Wrote!
>
>        True, but I'd still bet the Navy has less "waste" space allocated to
>people than does a luxury liner. Obviously, a carrier is going to have
>gobs'o'volume in the hangar deck, but as far as lounges, bars, spacious
>cabins ... nope. I'd just like rules that differentiate more between various

No the Nevy crams the crew in very tight, and then relien on the fact that
there is LOTS of wasted space on any moden sea going vessel.  One of the
problems with traveller is the concept of 110% volume for small craft.
Personally I think 200% would be a better estimate.  The reaon is that you
cannot always go EVA to work on a small craft, and you are constantly
working on the ship (else the enginners would go stir crazy!)  That space is
"wasted" when not in use, and can then be used for makeshift lounges etc.
Also cargo holds are not usually filled to capacity so a little bit of space
is available there.

>types of ships. Les Howie mentioned something about a "comfort rating" based
>on the waste space _allocated to people_ -- I can see a range of values.
>Really low affects crew morale and efficiency; slightly higher is bearable;
>passengers expect more; luxury passengers expect gobs.
>

IN the case of Luxury Liners, or even most passenger liners there would have
to be LOTS of space deveoted to lounges etc.  Take a look at the deck plans
for the QEII sometime.  She has something like 5 swimming pools 3 dinning
rooms, even a bowling alley.  Remember that most ships in the game are small
free traders that take on a few passengers for a little extra money.  This
would be not unlike hitching a berth on a freighter going to Europe or
somewhere else.  You expect a room, some food, and nothing else!  On a
Princess Lines ship (the Love Boat) you expect a great deal more!

The major problem here is that the price for travel is set artificially at
10,000CR for a high passage.  In reality, no self repecting high passenger
would take a berth on a 200 ton freighter!  Besides 10,000CR for 1 week?
Thats 1,400+CR per day.  Now most of that MIGHT be considered travel expense
(like an airplane) but Traveller has always tried to represent Space Travel
like Ocean travel in the 20th.  A five day trip on the Queen Mary from New
York to Liverpool is about $1000 for first class.  For 10,000CR I would
expect a very nice stateroom really travelling first class.  Most people
cannot afford 10,000CR to take a trip to another planet (Imagine the family
of 4 going on a holiday for 4 weeks to another planet 80,000CR just for
travel!)  If that is the case then no one would ever go anywhere.  My
solution would be this.  People are hard to transport, cargo is relatively
easy.  The price for transporting cargo is a little low in my opinion its
about 1/2 what it should be.  And what about priority transport cargo
(Imperial Express When it positively has to be there next week!)  Those
costs could be MUCH higher on the order of 10000Cr+ per ton.  I mean it
costs 32 cents to mail a letter in the USA, but almost $10 to mail it
overnight! (3000% cost increase).  Cargo becomes the primary job of a
freighter, and liners cater to passengers.  I mean 1 steward for 8
passengers works when you have 80 passengers and 10 stewards, but not when
you have only 1 steward.  I would not want to work 24hrs a day catering to
people.

Additionally the rules state that it still costs 10,000Cr for two people to
travel together  Bull Puckey.  There should be allowances for double
occupancy just like for crew.  Then you charge say only 50% or ticket price
and sell the other stateroom.  The Life Support on a freighter or any
commercial ship sould always have some built in redundancy to allow for say
a 50% increase in passengers, else how could you pick up survivors from a
disabled ship etc.

Lastly on this topic.  The service industry (hotels, Airlines, etc) are
notorious for overbooking their accomodations.  An interesting adventure
seed might be when the players are trying to get out of dodge on a liner
when they discover that their reservations have boon overbooked.  They can
get a free upgrade by waiting for the next liner out in 2 weeks!

On Another vein.

>>Well, my last apartment was *smaller* than that and wasn't all that
>>cramped.
>        Your apartment had less than 170 square feet? I find that
>incredible. You're a better man than I.
>
I too find it hard to believe that in an apartment that small unless it is
Hong Kong etc.  Even then, you are likely to have at the very least a window
to look out.  Remember in Jump there is nothing to look at.  Holographic
images get kind of old after a while!

AGGGHHHHH!!!! I rambled yet again sorry for those that are not interested.
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above should not be interperted as
doctrine, dogma, or anything else.  However, if you really like
it then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 17:51:04 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Time Spent in Low Berth
Message-ID: <9603202251.AA05960@chara.gsu.edu>

Paul Walker wrote
>This brings up another interesting question.  Is there a minimum amount of
>time that you can spend in a lo berth, and exactly how much do you age in a
>low berth (1 sec per day, one sec per year, etc)?  If an average person (70
>year life) slept every evening (8 hours) in a lo berth, would they add years
>on to their life?  The amount of time spent sleeping would be equal to 23.33
>years.  This would also have an effect on aging rolls.  This could have some
>effects on the adventuring age of PC's.

I always assumed that low berth stoped all biological processes, so if
you went into low berth needing sleep, you would emerge from low berth
needing sleep. I assume that people don't age at all in low berth.

 Also low berth is risky, and possibly fatal, so its not something to
do unless you are desperate.

Lewis

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 632
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 633

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Terran Fed Population by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
  2) Low Berths and Ageing by mhclark@iastate.edu
  3) Re: Brilliant Lances Scenario 1 by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  4) Re:  Ship Stuff by odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
  5) Cloning TL's by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  6) Fares aboard Ships by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  7) Assorted Replies by nkelly@pcug.org.au (David Jaques-Watson)
  8) Re: TL 12  Shukugan-class SDB by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
  9) BARD Paper on RC Worlds by lewis@chara.gsu.edu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:39:10 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Terran Fed Population
Message-ID: <s15050cb.043@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>

Phillip McGregor writes:

>But the above figure is outdated, as I pointed out, Terran
>population is expected to top out at only 11 billion, down from
>13 billion ... and the rate of population increase is declining.

   That's true of right now, but on the larger scale of things, birth rates
tend fluctuate depending on cultural influences.  Here in the U.S. there
was a veritable population explosion after World War 2.  That followed a
period during the Great Depression when birth rate were much lower
than they are now.  To look say that the world population will top out at
an arbitrary figure like 11 billion ignores all kinds of potential events
between now and the end of the 21st century.

>The First Interstellar war starts in 2096,

   Wrong, the First Interstellar War begins in 2110, some 14 years after
first contact, and some 24 years after the Solomani after discovered
jump drive.

>Considering the small amounts of people that you could probably
>dump offplanet to form colonies,

   The colonization of Prometheus would have been accomplished easily
enough.  An entire Earth-like planet, totally devoid of people a mere two
week's journey away.  People would flock in droves at the opportunity to
colonize.  Of course in their haste they would probably cause a near
ecological disaster on Prometheus, as native flora and fauna are pushed
aside by imported Terran stock.  Even that would probably not slow the
growth of the colony.  Remember, the original Solomani Rim sourcebook
by GDW described the discovery of Prometheus as being, "as
momentous as the discovery of fire."  Sounds like an exodus followed to
me.

>and how could you assume that the planets in question could
>develop a high tech economic base when half their population is
>pregnant all the time?

   You could easily develop a commune system in which several families
live in a close cluster of dwellings.  Two of the adults could handle the
child care responsibilities while the other 4-8 could work outside the
home.  Much more efficient system.  Not all the women would be
pregnant all the time, even with my suggested rate of growth.

>Where do you get these figures from? Thin air? Seriously, where
>*do* you get them from? I could just as easily say that in 300
>years the population of Terra will be 1 billion. I have as much
>justification (declining birthrate trends as societies become
>more affluent) ... you provide no support for this amazing level
>of growth.

   My figures are based partially on figures in the TNE sourcebook.  A
moderately conservative growth rate would have the population doubling
every 70 years.

>Also, get real, the Terrans aren't going to incorporate the
>conquered Vilani as easily as you blithely assume ...

   Granted, how easily a world is absorbed would vary from location to
location, but we are told in the Traveller text that overall it was relatively
easily accomplished.  Assuming that the "Terran occupation forces"
includes a few hundred marines and a naval officer who acts as Chief
Administrator over the existing Vilani bureaucracy, you could gobble up a
lot of real estate in a short time.

>I believe that you are wrong here ... Terra had developed J3 at
>TL/12 and the Vilani Ziru Sirka was still stuck with J2 and
>TL/11.

   Oops! You're right.  It was the Second Imperium (Rule of Man) that
achieved TL 13 before collapsing.

>And, as for the use of Robots -seems to have damn little effect
>on the size of crews designed by any of the three systems
>available!

   There is mention of robot substitutes for crew in both MegaTraveller
and TNE texts.  If you can't use them to replace humans, why can you
program them with ship operation skills?  True, there's nothing that says
"one robot can replace x number of crew," but it only takes a little
common sense to figure things out.

>And, in any case, there aren't 250 billion!

   Again, my estimate based upon what is presented in the TNE manual.

>But cloning is not available.

   We can now clone sheep.  Humans aren't as far away as you are
thinking....

>Artificial Wombs are mentioned nowhere in any of the materials I
>have for CTRav, MTrav or TNE.

   Perhaps not, but they would be a natural extension of existing and
soon to be developed medical technology here on 20th century Earth.
Ever hear of an incubator?

   As for clones, I think that S:AAB does an excellent job of pointing out
the kinds of problems that would develop when you start dumping
cloned humans into society.  Clones of humans would probably be
unthinkable ethically prior to first contact with the Vilani, but an attractive
alternative to being squashed like a bug after the Terrans realize what
they are up against.

>And they would be more expensive (inevitably) that live births
>... and *still* require lots and lots of people to raise all
>those babies to useful adulthood.

   More expensive perhaps, but not necessarily prohibitively so.  As for
raising them, the old fashion way would work just fine--again,
adjustments would have to take place in society at large.

>But, as I have pointed out, there is no evidence that the
>Terrans ever had such a population.

   And there is no evidence that they didn't.  I merely present a theory that
fits the existing canon.  If you wish to ignore canon, that's up to you.

>*Exactly* what I have proposed ... and I suggest that it is this
>*treason* is the reason for the situation.

   Treason against the existing power structure perhaps, but it is also
possible that he was motivated by a genuine love for the Confederation,
and he realized that what the civilian government wanted to do would
inevitably result in a premature end to all that he and his comrades (and
generations before him) strived, and in some cases sacrificed their lives,
to achieve.

>Estigaribbia didn't have enough forces of his own to oppose the
>Home Fleet, but allied himself treasonously with the Vilani in
>return for being declared Emperor!

   This might make an interesting story, but it is not canon.  Canon
indicates that he did so with the approval of the majority of the
Confederation population.

>My explanation is that the Vilani were still using man-operated
>(or overseen) machines in factories while the Terrans were using
>completely roboticised factories of tremendous output, and that
>they simply buried the Vilani in mass produced high tech weapons >and
few troops.

   Perhaps not totally automated, but automated to a much larger degree
than is currently possible.  Imagine the Americans, Japanese, Brits,
Germans, et. al. working cooperatively to solve the problem of rapid
industrial expansion.  No question that the Terrans could have pulled it
off.

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:22:19 CST
From: mhclark@iastate.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Low Berths and Ageing
Message-ID: <9603210122.AA23129@las2a.iastate.edu>

  I seem to recall that in Classic Traveller's High Guard that any term a
character spent as "frozen watch" (stored in low berths to replace battle
casualties) did not count toward aging.  In the Traveller novels (To
Dream of Chaos, the other one) the main character is naval officer who
spent the period between the rebellion and the new era in low berth - she
apparently did not age.

  Based on this, I'd be inclined to say that folks in low berth do not age
at all.

---
Mark H Clark
mhclark@iastate.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:37:14 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Brilliant Lances Scenario 1
Message-ID: <9603210137.AA18429@Rt66.com>


> I've just finished playing scenario 1 from Brilliant Lances.
> Is it possible for the Imperials to win?

Possible?  I guess if the Zho is ***really*** dumb it's possible :-)

> It seems to me that if the Zhodanis speed through the map as fast as
> possible with their sensors on active it is impossible for the Imperials
> to do enough damage before they leave the other side with the base
> location.

Frankly they don't even need to go all that fast.  Replacing the
Gazelles with Fireys would help since at least a missile hit will do
criticals to little scouts.

In unmodified BL you're right, they just crank up the actives and lock
the sucker up.  The writers played the game using their assumptions
about the rules, but not the rules if you catch my meaning (that or they
wrote the scenarios without actually playing them).

They _meant_ for passive sensors to be more useful because actives would
draw too much attention.  The rules for any real purposes don't penalize
active sensors at all, so passives are basically bad sensors, and
actives are good sensors.

There are a couple of alternate sensor rules out there on the web sites.
Mine're on the beta archives, and Andrew's are someplace else---they
were published in that 3rd party traveller magazine (sorry, forgot the
title, but it's a cool magazine).  Both sets correct this "problem" to
some degree.  Adding anti-radiation missiles that are kinetic kill
weapons doesn't hurt, either :-)

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:51:43 -0500
From: odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  Ship Stuff
Message-ID: <199603210154.TAA17741@falcon.inetnebr.com>

At 12:08 PM 3/18/96 -0500,  "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us> wrote:
>I remember reading in FF&S and in fact I have right here.  On page 62
>under the heading Spacecraft Deckplans, it says "When allocating
>space within the craft, assume that only a portion of the specified
>volume for staterooms, bunks, etc., is used for those fittings per
>se; the remainder should be used for common areas and other
>accomadations for the crew, such as recreation areas, eating spaces,
>and so on."  I assume this includes everything you made rules for in
>your message."Ah ha ha ha ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha ha ha!  Ah ha ha ha...

  Actually, I had considered it.  I rejected it due to the fact that by
using those rules, you end up with a ridiculously small amount of deck
space allocated to recreation.  It makes sense when you try to account for
hallways, though - On a 1x1x3.5 meter deck plan, simply cut 1/2 meter off
the "long" measurement of the stateroom and use it for empty space.  This
gives you a LSR measuring 4x3.5 meters, a SSR measuring 2x3.5 meters and a
bunk area of 2x1.5 meters.  Put two rooms across from each other, and you
get 1 meter of hall space in between, roughly the same as you find on
submarines or aircraft carriers.
  But the crew still needs a recreation area and sanitation facilities, and
a SSR simply doesn't have the volume for this, especially if you
double-bunk it.  Large SR's have enough space for shower, 'fresher, vanity,
closet, bunk (two if necessary) and a small desk.  Bunks have barely enough
space for a bed and overhead bin.
  More on life support:  Kitchens and dining areas can be added, for those
who prefer "real" food to the processed crap (no pun intended).  Assume a
basic kitchen size of 1 1/2 Dtons (21 kl), with storage space for two
man-months of food.  Larger kitchens add more storage at 7kl per 2
man-months' storage.  Price at about MCr0.06 (seems reasonable), Mass 2.0,
Power 0.001MW.  Dining rooms are just another recreation room.  Of course,
this adds another crewmember position (Cook).

  But anyway, I have a game to get ready for.  And a set of Small Arms
laser rules to rewrite...anyone have any helpful suggestions (or even
unhelpful ones)?


                +
                -\        "I should'a taken that
                | |      /       left toin at Albuquoiqe."
                | |       _
       _        | |      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/_________odysseus@inetnebr.com
                                 PGP 2.6.2 Public Key available



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:51:33 -0900
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Cloning TL's
Message-ID: <v01540a00ad767a67c5d6@[137.229.100.65]>

While a duplicate with memories intact is not possible (except possibly via
psionics) until TL 16 (Crude Memory Transfer), and not feasable til 18,
CLONING is first referenced on the TL Chart in MT Ref's Companion at TL 13,
with "Cloned Body Parts"; however, there is reference to Growth Quikening
at TL 10.

Such Growth Quikening would most likely be used in colonial settlements and
for clones, which seem to be implied to already exist, as the allowance for
cloning body parts is listed as  "Futher advancements in Genetics allow..."
specifc parts to be grown.

True Geneering of sapients seems to be TL 14. (Same source)

I do not have Traveller's Digest 13, which has cloning related medical
material, especially regeneration of missing limbs.
Currently, cloning of animals has been done (read about cloning of frogs in
Scientific American), without resort to artificial wombs. It has been found
possible to get reproductive cells to divide and grow; it is much harder to
figure why the grow the way they do.

To Phil: Please make a point! You throw 3-4 screenfulls of the same *BS*
for a week on to both lists, and it appears to be little more than
re-hashing the origional idea which people have dissected, and found
lacking. Do your research. READ THE TEXT, not just the tables! As for
Solomani & Aslan, it points out that Geneering is TL 13. Doesn't outright
say that cloning predates it, but COMMON SENSE does, especially with a read
through of the tech table's accompanyying text.



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:15:33 -0900
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Fares aboard Ships
Message-ID: <v01540a01ad7685c87246@[137.229.100.89]>

The standard High Passage Coupon is a guarantee of a Large Stateroom to
one's self. Double Occupancy is Mid Passage. (See Trade and Travel in CT,
and then compare sizes in MT/FF&S). So Single Occupancy of Small Staterooms
would also be Mid Passage. Anything less would be steerage (IIRC, a
violation of imperial law, if they paid for passage).

I run with the assumption that imperial law doesn't set the prices, but the
redemption value of Imperial Passage Vouchers/Coupons; a High Passage being
worth 2 person/weeks of Food and LS Recharge, plus 9000cr of cash
reimbursement; and a mid passage being same food and LS, but only 7000cr
cash reimpursement; the required levels of lifestyle are to be able to cash
in the coupons. So commercial passage would tend to stick close to the
price/value/performance guidelines of the coupons out of percieved (not
real) value. I also put the restriction that Passengers may not be carried
more than 1 per small SR or 2 per large IF THEY ARE PAYING. This coupon
system also ties nicely into the expectations of a susidized merchantman
(of any size or class of vessel); If he charges less, he gets chewed by the
loan holder, and if more, he can't cash government or TAS passages.



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 21:39:25 +1000
From: nkelly@pcug.org.au (David Jaques-Watson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Assorted Replies
Message-ID: <199603211034.VAA23450@pcug.org.au>


To: traveller@mpgn.com


Dear Folks -

1.BOUNTY HUNTERS

In #606, Simon suggested:
>And if this is a normal way of tracking felons, there's likely to be a Hunters
>Aid organisation of some kind operating on any world with a class A,B,or C

An excellent reference for bounty hunters is "Dead or Alive", published in an
early _White Dwarf_ (I only have v. old copies, can someone come up with the
issue number? Andy Lilly, perhaps?).

The article outlined "The Bounty Hunter as a Career in Traveller", according to
the Book 2-style of PC generation.

It suggested that the problem of capture, given the size of the Imperium, would
prevent any Imperial "police force" from being cost-effective. Instead, a
cheaper alternative is to offer bounties. Four categories were suggested:

"1.Alive. A reward for the capture of the wanted individual."
"2.Dead or Alive. A bounty permitting the return of a dead offender for a
lesser amount than one who is alive (eg. Alive: Cr2000, dead: Cr1000)."
"3.Dead or Alive. A flat rate reward for the offender or the offender's
corpse."
"4.Dead, This is reserved for the most dangerous criminals who have usually
been sentenced to death *in absentia*. The reward is for the execution
of the felon. It is frowned upon by the Imperium and most central
authorities. Many planets consider the 'execution' of the felon on
their soil as murder." (p 26).

Yes, very "Wild West", but after all, that *is* how we were originally told to
view the Marches.

Note that "The Zhodani Conspiracy" computer game (story by MM) used the fourth
system constantly - without the bad side-effects. You could zap a bad guy, and
all the bureaucracy would say was "Well done, here is your reward."

As for organisation, the artical postulated that "several corporations have
been formed and the Imperium has laid down a code of conduct and instituted an
organisation of its own." (p 26). The best hunters could even apply for an
Imperial Warrant (!!! - a bit over the top, in my view).

Possible material benefits included anti-security tools, weapons, combat armour,
and a Type-H Hunter 100t starship (for former members of the corporations
noted above). The deck plans are drawn *excellently* by Nick Weeks, and are
the best part of the article (IMO). Before Seeker began doing their detailed
plans, this one existed (what was good? oh, things like the 10t fuel
compartments, the revolving vehicle bay for the enclosed air/raft, the very
detailed seating plans and entertainment consoles, the way they were organised
like tech blueprints, the electrified hull and security system run by the
"Watchdog" security program, the cells and low berths that include the
6G floor field around them in case of escape attempts... when all we had was
_Traders and Gunboats_, this was a ship to drool over).

The only thing missing was the idea of a "Hunter's Guild" as suggested by
Simon. I see no reason *not* to include one, if you allow the bounty hunter
idea into your campaign. Presumably you would get similar benefits to TAS.

(All material from: "Dead or Alive", Diane and Richard John, _White Dwarf ??_,
Games Workship, UK, 198?, pp26-27).

2.UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS AND RIGHTS

>In Oz (and, so I gather, in many European countries) Unemployment Benefits are
>regarded as a *right* ... if the government cannot manage the economy well
>enough to provide for close to full employment for all, then I think most
>Australians agree that they have a responsibility to provide for a basic
>standard of living for those who cannot find work.

Have you heard this one:

An American, a Scotsman, and an Aussie were sitting a pub in the outback.
Suddenly, a road train crashed right through the place, killing the three men
and just missing the bartender and (thankfully) the grog. ;-) Just as the
bartender was picking himself up and brushing off the bull-dust, the Yank
reappeared.
"What happened?" asked the bartender.
"Well", replied the American, "a moment ago, the three of us were standing in
front of St Peter at the pearly gates. He said that we could come in if we each
paid him 10 bucks. So I paid him, and that's why I'm back here."
"And the others?"
"Well, the Scotsman is haggling over the price, and the Aussie thinks that the
government should pay it."

3.REALITY AND TRAVELLER

Angus MCLELLAN said:
>Stuff reality; let's have an internally consistent system that feels right.

Amen to that. In my belief, the major problem with TNE - the one that led
to all the symptoms (techhead vs classics arguments) - is that it, _by itself_,
IS internally consistent - but it is not consistent with previous versions of
Traveller.

>What we don't need is something filled with doom, gloom and pornographic
>violence, as in the pathetic efforts of pimps like Drake and Stirling.

Stirling I don't know, but are you referring to _David_ Drake?

4.GG REFUELLING VULNERABILITY

Merrick asked for some rationale as to why GG refuelling leaves your ship at
risk.

"Refuelling operations for a task force are another danger point, as forces
which are low on fuel and maneuvering in a gravity well are especially
vulnerable". (_High Guard_, p 19)

However, the abstract movement system provides no disadvantages. Perhaps the
concept is a hangover derived from _Book 2: Starships_. This book uses a drawn
vector combat system and has two esp. relevant rules:gravity effects on
movement, and atmospheric braking. For example, Jupiter's world template would
show 2.6 G's at the edge of its atmosphere - very significant for refuelling.

And yes, these would be house rules if added to the other flavours of space
combat rules.

Also, how about:
- high-speed skimming leads to pre-determined and predictable vectors; and/or
the extra load on your drives and CG field leave little room for evasive
maneuvers;
- the old Star Trek saw about nebulae could apply: being in a GG affects your
sensors. The guys outside can still track you due to the increased energy
output coming from the extra work your drives/CG field are doing in the GG's
high gravity.

BTW, an SDB may not be able to hurt a CruRon or BatRon - but if it is sitting
in a GG, its real targets are the fuel tankers, no? Look at the Azhanti High
Lightning's fuel shuttles: only 40G armour, 2G, no agility, DefDM +9 (MT stats
from_Arrival Vengance_). Knock out a few of these, and suddenly an
unstreamlined strike force is in trouble.

And Craig said:
>This also suggests a fairly striking discovery -- that a ship without CG
>can't effectively skim a gas giant! Comments, anyone?

Use thrusters. ;-)

5.SIMON'S <insert superlative here> PROGRAM

I agree with John Bogan's wants for the display (esp. the CENTRE function key).
However, these may have to be relegated to version 2 (!!).

Perhaps a simple suggestion for the planet's locations around the central star
is to use a variant of the system at the back of _The Starship Operator's
Manual_. This gave a simple dice roll for the location of one planet from
another. Reiterate for the whole system. (Perhaps use a consistent random seed
to get the same base result for a system, then add orbital movement based on
date?? I don't know, just trying to make the planets move for the next time
the PC's go there).

The main point of the _SOM_ idea is to simplify orbit locations: 4 or 6 sectors
per orbit, then calc a rough (ie. simplified but playable) travel distance.

If you want detailed system info, why not ask Marcus L. Rowland (a long-time
Traveller contributor) how he did things like that for his _World Generator_
program. Sorry I don't have a contact e-mail; can BITS help here?

6.STREAMLINING

Wow, while looking up the fleet tactics in _MT Journal #2_, I also found the
final upgrades to the MT streamlining definitions!!

Here they are:

"Unstreamlined: No attempt has been made to streamline the hull. Many
protrusions and irregularities exist which significantly increase the vessel's
drag, making it difficult or impossible to operate the craft in an atmosphere
at a high rate of speed."
"Streamlined: Various cowlings and fairings have been added to the hull to
streamline it for operation in an atmosphere, although the streamlining is less
than that provided by an airframe. This configuration is equivalent to the
'partially streamlined' configuration found in _High Guard_."
"Airframe: The hull has been designed for high performance in an atmosphere. In
order to achieve such performance, exterior design has been a priority. This
configuration is equivalent to the 'streamlined' configuration found in _High
Guard_."

The Q&A also talked about the HG definitions, and the unfortunate early errata
referance to HG.

And a further explanation is given:

"Before we leave this question, let's explain a bit more what we had in mind
when we created these three types from the older two types."
"Airframe indicates the configuration generates its own _lift_ in an
atmosphere. In other words, the craft could actually glide to a landing without
power if it had to. Streamlined, on the other hand, means the craft's
configuration does not provide much in the way of lift, separate from its power
source (a helicopter is a good example of an SL configuration - take away its
power and it will drop like a rock)."
"The SL configuration, does however allow for atmospheric flight at reasonable
speeds, and thus does allow for landing on a world's surface. And unstreamlined
craft cannot land on a world with an atmosphere value of 2 or greater, nor can
an unstreamlined configuration skim a gas giant for fuel."

(all quoted text is from _The MegaTraveller Journal #2_, Joe D. Fugate Sr.,
DGP, Woodburn, Oregon, USA, 1991, p 26)

Now, at the risk of inciting *yet another* flame war over this, here are my
dot points:
- it appears that only the atmosphere is a problem, not the gravity of a world
  (an unstreamlined craft can apparently support itself against gravity);
- under SL it talks about "atmospheric flight at reasonable speeds" and that
  USL cannot be operated at high speed - but what about at much slower speeds?
- BUT distance from orbit is not a vertical 300 km drop - can anyone tell me
  how far the Shuttle travels from the point it re-enters to the point it
  touches down? Is 5000 km a good guess?
- If the thing "floats" down, it will presumably be subject to wind (as an
  earlier poster stated) - distance travelled ("blown") should be comparable
  to distance normally "flown";
- If 5000 km is a good guess, then a USL ship, travelling at its "safe" speed
  of 40 kph - oh, lets be generous and say it travels like a brick, sorry, Mac
  truck, and does, oh, 100 kph;
- At 100 kph, it takes 50 _hours_ to touch down (just over 2 days!);
- At 40 kph (in comparision), it takes 125 _hours_ to land (5 days 5 hours!!);
- This is not economically feasable, nor would many worlds allow their flight
  paths to be regularly clogged for this long;
- Presumably this technique also requires some major Piloting rolls.

My conclusion is that allowing USL ships to land will not break canon, as long
as the following applies:
- it is risky (make many Piloting rolls at increased difficulty levels);
- it take a _long_ time to get anywhere;
- it is generally only done in emergencies.

Finally, remember this is only a _game_ - and you are the DM! You can allow
what you like into your campaign - be it j-torps, thrusters, blaster pistols,
USL ships landing - be it on your own head! (personally, I _like_ thrusters!)
_You_ are the one who has to control game balance and mesh any introduced
technology with your history.

If the worst comes to the worst, and the players want to do something that you
don't want to allow - don't just tell them no! (you don't want to stifle the
creativity of the little beggars now, do you? ;-) Just roll some dice, pretend
to look up some tables, mumble a bit, and _THEN_ say "No". (Sorry Andrew ;-)

- Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"This tagline intentionally left blank".


_______________________________________________________________
Firstname Lastname               Any other details you would
userid@pcug.org.au               like to provide to people at
Your_phone_number                the end of your messages.


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:44:38 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL 12  Shukugan-class SDB
Message-ID: <s151413d.006@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>

Steven Bonneville writes:

>I couldn't *believe* the inadequate active sensor on the SDB when
>I looked at the design.  Ugh.  That's why I gave the jump shuttle such a
>nice active sensor --the ship really needs it.

   In a Brilliant Lances game some time ago, I was able to use the
Shukugan's missiles as remote active sensor drones.  Deploying
practically every missile on board, I sent them in the general direction
of the enemy, figuring at least one of the missiles would get a lock-on
of some kind.  The tactic worked, and the target (a Gazelle which
fortunately wasn't evading very well) recieved multiple missile hits and
was totally disabled.

   The design theory goes something like, ``SDB by their very nature
do not need large active EMS arrays.  They lie await in ambush, hoping
some ship or other makes the mistake of getting too close to a gas
giant, asteroid field, or a world with large oceans.  When that happens,
the SDB uses *passive * sensors to achieve a lock-on  (thus greatly
reducing the possibility of detection) and then fires off a number of
prepositioned missiles which kill the target.``

>Another gripe --who put a purification plant in a ship with *no jump
>drive*?

   This would allow the SDB to operate for months at a time without
having to come in for refueling, something that would be an operational
advantage given how they fight.

   In summary, the Shukugan-class isn't *that* bad for a TL12 SDB, so
long as you know how to deploy it.  Would I design it differently?  Of
course, but then you can pretty much improve on any design, given
enough time and motivation.

Regards,

Harold



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 13:14:17 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: BARD Paper on RC Worlds
Message-ID: <9603211814.AA07684@chara.gsu.edu>

Hi,
  I am in the planning stages of an RC campaign, and I wanted to write up a
article about the various worlds of the RC, so my players could have a bit of
info on each world, and also allow them to pick a homeworld. Since none of them
has ever played traveller before, I expanded out the USP into words.
  I tried to use what was said in various RC handbooks, mainly POT but
also Star Vikings.   I also expanded where I felt it was needed. I
think this is also a good starting point for writing up full articles
on each world.  I think Eamon said he was writing up one on Baldur.
   I think this is very much a first draft, I'd like other people to
contribute, expand or suggest alternatives to these writeups.  Some of
them I really like, others are okay but could use improvement.  On Eos,
I drew a total blank.
Most ideas we can combine into one world, but if there are two totally
contridictary ideas, we can always have options, ie Oriflamme 1 and Oriflamme 2.

Lewis

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                     WORLDS of the REFORMATION COALITION
Apollo  E8C5300-8
          Size: Large : D=12,800km              Atmosphere: Insidious
          Hydrographics: 50%                    Population: 4000
          Government:None                       Law Level: None
          Tech Level: 8 (1990's)                Star port: Frontier
        The entire native population died off during the Final War.
Now freelance prospectors search the ruins for technological treasures.
Most of the pre-war civilization was located below ground, in huge sprawling
tunnels.
        The McDermont family from Aurora has set up a minimal starport at the
site of a pre-war airport.  They offer unrefined fuel, berthing sites, and
operate a small general store which sells almost anything. They buy relics
from the prospectors and resell them to the crew of the Free Trader
Anarchist which makes regular stops at the starport.

Aubaine A78A884-C
          Size: Large : D=11,000km              Atmosphere: Dense
          Hydrographics:100%                    Population:150 million Humans
                                                           650 milion Schalli
          Government: Civil Service Bureaucracy Law Level:Moderate
          Tech Level: 12 (Avg Stellar)          Star port: Excellent
        Aubaine is a water world, with most human civilization located on
the many small islands that dot the ocean.  Aubaine is the true home of
the Schalli, who are known by that name due to political wrangling in the Last
Imperium, which denied that the Schalli were truly intelligent.  Anyone
who has seen the Schalli at work, knows that is a lie.
Aubaine is the seat of the Coalition government, the Assembly of Worlds is
located on the largest island group.  Here represenitives from each Coalition
world gather to decided issues effecting the future.
        The Aubaine is also site of the Hiver Technical Accademy, and
the Aubani are very close to the Hivers.  The Aubani have a vision for the
future, that has the Coalition expanding across the wreckage of the Imperium.
Other Coalition members feel that the Aubani are arrogant, but the Aubani
deny this saying that only they can see how the Coalition is a small island
of sanity in the vast oceans of space, and that it could easily be swept
away by the rising tide of chaos. Aubaine is the center of the Federalist
movement.

Aurora B576646-B
          Size: Medium : D=8000km               Atmosphere:Standard tainted
          Hydrographics: 60%                    Population: 7 million
          Government: Representative Democracy  Law Level:Moderate
          Tech Level: 11 (Avg Stellar)          Star port: Good
        The headquarters of the Reformation Coalition Navy is located on
Aurora.  This along with their high tech shipyards will make Aurora a center
for shipbuilding, once the shipyards get upgraded.  Before the Final War
Aurora was a colony of Macis, which is now called Apollo.  The Collapse
severed ties between the two worlds.  Resenting the fact that their
planet was formerly owned by the Macins, Aurora became a democracy, and to
this day they resent strong governmental controls.  The effects of the Collapse
were severe, but the Aurorans banded togethor and by making a concerted
effort were able to rebuild.  By 1170 Aurora had regained her old Tech Level,
and had begun to advance past it.  It didn't have the capacity to build jump
drives, so it was forced to remain isolated.  In 1192, the Hivers made
contact, and Aurora was able to purchase jump drives.  It was a charter
member of the Dawn Leage, and an early proponent of the Reformation Coalition.
Aurora has become a staunch supporter of the Federalists, feeling that a
strong extraplanetary government would take away the freedoms that individual
worlds now possess.

Baldur CAAA756-9
          Size: Large : D=16,000km              Atmosphere: Exotic
          Hydrographics:100%                    Population: 30 million
          Government:Feudal Technocracy         Law Level: Moderate
          Tech Level: 9 (circa 2010)            Star port: Routine
        Baldur is a deathworld, its atmosphere is poisonous to most life, it
is covered with seas of acid, and high gravity pulls at everything.
It is only through human ingeniuity that life is sustained. The Baduri
lived in vast underwater cities, on man made islands, and above it all in
orbital habitats.  The Collapse threatend all of these. The Virus crashed
the orbital habitats into the sea, threatened to open the airlocks on the
subsurface cities, and tried to capsize the floating islands.  It was only
through relentless effort, and great technical skill, that all life on the
planet was saved from destruction. The Balduri know that life hangs by a
thread, and the only thing between the RC and screaming chaos is the will
to survive.

Enkidu E510415-9
          Size: Medium : D=8000                 Atmosphere: Trace
          Hydrographics: None                   Population: 50 thousand
          Government: Corporate                 Law Level: Moderate
          Tech Level: 9 (circa 2010)            Star port: Frontier
        Before the Collapse Enkidu was named Dono.  It was owned by a council
of five corporations.  These weren't megacorporations, just small planetary
companies.  They were Westlake Industries, Mogon Technologies, Cynder Data
Systems, United Power Systems, and Blenkindo Enterprises.  Each corporation
had its own territory, and used it to produce products for export throughout
the subsector.  During fighting between the Solomani Confederation and Lucan's
Imperium, the planet's infrastructure was damaged beyond repair.  The five
corporations banded togethor to evacuate the planet.  Unfortunately five
million people is beyond the scope of anyone to evacuate, the corporations
managed to get a mere thirty thousand to saftey, before the planet died.
        The survivors fled to Hite (now known as Nike Nimbus), where they
kept alive the dream of someday returning to their homes.  The first generation
of refugees died without fufilling their dream. Today their
grandchildren are finally able to return home.  The five corporations
were able to stay intact on Hite, and on the founding of the Dawn
League, began making plans to return home.
        On 17-IV-1199 the first expatriarts returned home.  They renamed the
planet Enkidu, to symbolize the hope they felt for the future. Right now
life is difficult; its not easy rebuilding a world, but by working togethor
the residents will build a new future.

Eos   C674656-B
          Size: Large : D=9600                  Atmosphere:Standard Tainted
          Hydrographics: 50%                    Population: 5 million
          Government: Feudal Technocracy        Law Level:Moderate
          Tech Level:B (Avg Stellar)            Star port:Routine
HELP, I drew a total blank. I am sure someone out there can come up
with a good idea.

Fija  D553754-A
          Size: Large : D=8000km                Atmosphere: Thin
          Hydrographics: 30%                    Population: 70 million
          Government: Feudal Technocracy        Law Level: Moderate
          Tech Level: Early Stellar             Star port: Poor
         The people of Fija crave order.  They are uncomfortable with things
which do not follow detailed plans.  This enabled them to survive the Collapse
without the patterns of mass riotings, martial law, and mass executions which
many worlds suffered under.  The people simply refused to fall under the sway
of such chaos.  Fija was an original member of the Dawn League and
the earliest proponent for creating the Reformation Coalition.
Most residents feel that the RC has not gone far enough, too much is
still left to chance.
Without careful planning, many efforts will be wasted and lives will be
thrown away for little gain.  If the Coalition would restructure itself, it
could apply precious resources for maximum gain.
        The governing of Fija is divided up into small bureaus each charged
with a specific task.  Each bureau is run by a different group of technocrats.
The bureaus come under review each ten years.  At this time any group can
bid for control of the bureau.  The selection is decided by an impartial
group of judges.  A great deal of political intrigue surrounds the
selection process.

Helios E648243-4
          Size: Large : D=9600km                Atmosphere: Thin Tainted
          Hydrographics: 80%                    Population: 700
          Government:Representative Democracy   Law Level: Low
          Tech Level: 4 (Circa 1900)            Star port: Frontier
        Oriflamme originally claimed this world as its own.  The Oriflamme
technarchs dispatched a ship, to assess the natural resources and the remnants
of its technology.  The survey was going well, and the planet showed
considerable untapped potential, when the crew discovered a small
village on one of the southern islands. The technarchs debated whether
they could get away with
destroying the village and claiming the planet as unihabited, but the news
was leaked to CIN, before a decision could be made.  The RCES quickly contacted
the village.  The village welcomed the visitors from the stars and after a few
short months, asked to be admitted to the Coalition.  Since then the residents
of Helios have become a fervent supporter of the Federalists in the Assembly.
They have also tried to be a burr in the side of the Oriflamme technarchs. Often
voting against a bill, simply because Oriflamme supports it.
        The people of Helios are very simple folk.  They have achieved a
low level of technology, but are happy with it.  Most other worlds in the
Coalition are trying to raise their Tech Level as high as possible as fast
as possible.  Thr residents of Helios would rather go out into the Wilds
and help uplift the people who are suffering under the heels of TEDs and
religious dictatorships.

Kruyter B000312-B
          Size: Asteroid Belt                   Atmosphere: None
          Hydrographics: None                   Population: 3000
          Government: Corporate                 Law Level: Low
          Tech Level: B (Avg Stellar)           Star port: Good
        Kruyter was a minor crossroad in the pre-war era, not even important
enough to attack. It emerged from the Final War unscathed, but Virus changed
that.  Virus scoured all life from the system.  The system
was left untouched by human hands for seventy years.  In 1200, Kruytercorp
was formed to bring life to the system.  The corporation was privately funded,
one of the first corporations with a stock offering on the new RC wide stock
exchange. The RC is the major stockholder, other stockholders include Transstar,
and Glanow Trust on Oriflamme, and Meldarr Holding.
        Kruytercorp has rebuilt the starport and it is a a major stopover
for ships travelling from Aubaine subsector to Oriflamme subsector.  It
also has many prospectors searching the asteroid belt for valuable minerals and
for relic technology.  So far the search has gone badly.  Kruytercorp has
spent a great deal of capital on rebuilding the starport, so far this
has not shown a profit, and the prospecting division is hemoraging red ink
badly.
        The prospectors are a very eclectic group of individuals.  They were
drawn from every Coalition world, and possess a vast array of beliefs, values
and ideas on how the future should unfold.  There has been some talk of what
to do if Kruytercorp goes under, but so far the prospectors are undecided.

Lucifer D474784-8
          Size: Small : D=6400km                Atmosphere:Standard Tainted
          Hydrographics: 40%                    Population: 30 million
          Government:Civil Service Bureaucracy  Law Level:Moderate
          Tech Level: 8 (Circa 1990)            Star port: Poor
        Before the Final War Luhtala, as it was then called, was home to
millions of anarchists and mystics.  During the collapse, the Luhtalans were
forced to create a minimal amount of government to deal with the destruction of
the interstellar infrastructure.  Many of the anarchists were upset about
this, but they were persuaded before the argument became violent. Many did
not pay much attention to the government after it was formed, and let it
go about its business in peace.  It keeps society running, and doesn't
interfere with the day to day life of most residents.  After being
contacted by the emerging Dawn League, Luhtala petitioned to join, and
changed its name to Lucifer.
        The residents of Lucifer, who are still called Luhtalans, have
a wild streak. They are still reluctant to follow orders from governments or
anyone for that matter.  There are still thousands of cults and mystic
religons active on the planet. Now that interstellare travel has been restarted
many of these have started to recruit members across the Coalition and beyond.

Nike Nimbus C447789-9
          Size: Small D=6400km                  Atmosphere: Thin Tainted
          Hydrographics: 70%                    Population: 70 million
          Government: Civil Service Bureaucracy Law Level:  High
          Tech Level: 9 (Early Stellar)         Star port: Routine
        In antebellum times, the world of Hite, was ruled by a dictator
by the name of Crystal DeAmberville.  Hite was hit hard by the Final War,
and then even worse by Virus.  As the ruins of the capital lay burning, a
mob broke into the presidental palace and tore DeAmberville to pieces.
Many things can be said of DeAmberville, but one thing is for sure, she
created a massive high quality bureaucracy to carry out her orders.
After her death, the bureaucracy continued to function.  As it was one
of the few remaining institutions on the planet, it was able to organize
food shipments and begin to rebuild the planet.
        In 1195 Hivers came to the planet and found a planet still
struggling with the rebuilding effort. The planet became a member of
the new Dawn League and after a planet wide contest changed its name
to Nike Nimbus, after an ancient Terran goddess of victory.
        The Nimbians feel strongly that the most important thing about
the Coalition is that it is rebuilding civilization.  The petty political
arguments of the Assembly of Worlds don't help anyone.  Even though
their planet is still trying to rebuild, the Nimbians have formed several
corporations to go out into the Wilds and help rebuild civilization.

Oriflamme B846857-9
          Size: Large : D=12,800km              Atmosphere: Thin Tainted
          Hydrographics: 60%                    Population: 800 million
          Government: Feudal Technocracy        Law Level: Moderate
          Tech Level: 9 (Circa 2010)            Star port: Good
        Before the Collapse over seven billion people lived on Oriflamme.
A vast network of robotic farms fed the masses.  When Virus struck, it
possessed thousands of these farms, and turned the robotic workers into
roving death machines.  Hundreds of millions died by the hands of these
robotic killing machines.  Even more died of starvation, in the next few
years, as people struggled to produce food, with primitive non-mechanical
means.  It wasn't just people who died, the basic trust in your fellow man
died, compassion, charity and kindness all died.  When it was a choice between
feeding your child, or a stranger, the stranger went hungry.
        The situation on Oriflamme began to turn around, in late 1165,
when the first of the Technarchs emerged.  They promised to feed those
who would swear alliegence to them.  They than began to secure other
basic industries, until they controlled the entire planet.
        The scars of the collapse are still on the psyche of the residents
of Oriflamme.  Life is cheap on Oriflamme, and only those who are
strong survive. Oriflamme is very interested in expanding the Coalition, but
under Oriflamme control.

Phoebus  D267337-3
          Size: Small : D=2400km                Atmosphere: Standard
          Hydrographics: 70%                    Population: 8000
          Government: Oligarchy                 Law Level: Low
          Tech Level: 3 (Circa 1800)            Star port: Poor
NOTE:There seems to be some question of whether Phoebus is a full
member of the Coalition or not. On page 15 of POT, it says "... and there is
growing pressure from the populatioin to admit the planet as a member of the
Coaltion."  But on page 17 they are listed as having a vote in the Assembly.

        Fuetz, like many low population worlds in the Imperium was
dependent on the outside for most goods.  When interstellar trade stopped
the economy on Fuetz collapsed.  Most of the high tech machinery on the
planet was dependent on spare parts produced on other worlds.  Without  the
support of a interstellar high tech infrastructure, the supportable
tech level plummeted.  Sustainable technology went from Average Stellar
to the early Industrial Age.  Transportation went from grav cars to
animal drawn carts.  Since being recontacted by the Dawn League, several
bootstrap missions have been launched to help raise the sustainable
tech level, but it is slow going.
        Upon being admitted to the RC, Fuetz like many other worlds, changed
its name to symbolize the hope that the RC brings.  The planet is ruled
by the Council of Citizens.  The Council is elected from all citizens, but
only 10% of the population are citizens.  Citizenship is given to children
of Citizens, but both parents must be citizens.  The Council can also
nominate indiviudals for citizenship, but this is rarely done. Usually
only for those noncitizens who do the Council a great service.
Most non-citizens don't mind this setup, life is difficult, and they
don't have time to bother with politics.  Also the Council doesn't actually
do that much.

Ra E68659A-6
          Size: Medium  D=9600km                Atmosphere: Dense
          Hydrographics:60%                     Population: 200,000
          Government: Impersonal Bureaucracy    Law Level: High
          Tech Level: 6 (Circa 1950)            Star port: Frontier
        Before the Final War Ra was the home to only 60 people, all members
of the Striench family.  During the later parts of the war, the world
was swamped with refugees from doomed and failing worlds.  The refugees
threatened to overwhelm the Striench family.  The Strienchs hired a
mercenary force to act
as a police force and hired a company from Keipes to manage the refugees.
After the Virus cut off the planet from the outside universe, the Strienchs
allowed the stranded company to tax the refugees enough to pay for the
government.  The company has slowly evolved into a true government, but
one that is almost totally unresponsive to the will of the people.

Rohit E110335-9
          Size: Small : D=1600km                Atmosphere: Trace
          Hydrographics: None                   Population: 2000
          Government: Oligarchy                 Law Level: Moderate
          Tech Level: 9 (Circa 2010)            Star port: Frontier
        The original population of Rohit died off sometime during the Collapse.
It has been resettled by the Children of Tomorrow, a religious group from
Lucifer.  The Children follow a strict doctrine, that expouses self denial
and believes that physical labor is the way to achieve spiritual purity.
They felt the lifestyle on Lucifer was incompatiable with their goals and
decided to emmigrate.  They secured permission to colonize the planet
from the Dawn League and began to rebuild the planet's life support system.
They have rebuilt a city that is located in an underground cavern system.
They welcome visitors, but most outsiders find the planet too austere.
The Assembly of Worlds allows them to send a non-voting represenitive to the
Assembly.  The Children are pressuring to be admitted as a full member
world.

Schall E47A655-7
          Size: Small : D=6400km                Atmosphere: Standard Tainted
          Hydrographics: 100%                   Population: 5.4 million Humans
                                                            600,000 Schalli
          Government: Feudal Technocracy        Law Level: Moderate
          Tech Level: 7 (Circa 1970)            Star port: Frontier
        Thousands of Schalli were brought to Schall in Imperial times, to
study them away from their native home on Vras (Aubaine).  During the Collapse
the native humans learned that the Schalli were truly intelligent.  The
Schalli helped the humans survive, but were not interested in getting more
involved with human society. The Schalli on Aubani are very interested
in going out into the stars, while those on Schall tend to be very conservative 
and
traditional.  Not many Schalli from Schall have joined interstellar
society. Many Coalition residents, especially those from Lucifer come
to Schalli to experience the Schalli culture in its pure unspoiled state.
        The government is the only Feudal Technocracy that is in the Federalist
camp.  The people like their government, but don't believe that it is would
be best for everyone.  Every world is different and should come up with a
system that works for that world.

Shenandoah C585423-6
          Size: Medium : D=8000km               Atmosphere: Dense
          Hydrographics: 50%                    Population: 80,000
          Government: Participating Democracy   Law Level: Low
          Tech Level: 6 (Circa  1950)           Star port: Routine
        Shenadoah weathered the Collapse rather well.  It didn't
suffer a major population die off, the economy was the only thing that was
heavily damaged.  The sustainable technology level fell to 5, but
recent work has raised it to 6.  The citizens are very friendly and take
a great deal of pride in being a member of the Coalition.  Many young
people have joined the RCES and the RCN.  Almost all residents
try to be involved in their community, many spend their free time reading
up on planetary and RC politics and policies.  One of the most popular
activities is arguing about politics.

Spencer   D89A568-7
          Size: Large : D=12,800km              Atmosphere: Dense Tainted
          Hydrographics: 100%                   Population: 400,000
          Government: Captive Government        Law Level: High
          Tech Level: 7 (Circa 1970)            Star port: Poor
        Spencer is only the second world to be forcibly integrated into
the Coalition.  Oriflamme signed a mutual security agreement with a small
nation in the Southern chain of islands in 1198.  Over the last three years
Oriflamme built up its strenth. In late 1201 they launched a suprise
attack against the other nations on the planet.  Within three months
they had defeated all large military units on the planet.  Since then
they have been conducting mop up operations. Casulaties have been heavy,
a suprisingly strong resistance movement has sprung up.  They are well
equipped and willing to die for their cause.  Many on Oriflamme suspect
that the rebels are getting off planet help.

Spires  E894789-2
          Size: Large : D=12,800km              Atmosphere: Dense Tainted
          Hydrographics: 40%                    Population: 40 million
          Government:Civil Service Bureaucracy  Law Level: High
          Tech Level: 2 (Circa 1600)            Star port:  Frontier
        During the Third Imperium this was a  primitive world placed under
Imperial interdict as an anthropological laboratory for observation of, and
controlled  experiments on, social development. Lacking fossil fuels or
significant surface deposits of useful metals, technological development
stalled  fairly early, but philosophy and the arts flourished.  Since contact
by the Dawn League, a bootstrap campaign has been under way to raise
the worlds's tech level using solar power and imported metal or synthetic
materials.  Spires' citizens interested in starfaring are encouraged to
attend off world academies, and have done so in large numbers, but Spires
iteself still remains a simple and largely pastoral world.

Trybec B443610-A
          Size: Small : D=4000km                Atmosphere: Thin Tainted
          Hydrographics: 30%                    Population: 7 million
          Government: Corporate                 Law Level: None
          Tech Level: A (Early Stellar)         Star port: Good
        Trybecorp LIC has owned Trybec since 503, when Trybecorp bought
the planet from a destitute noble family, and then renamed the planet
after itself.Trybecorp was a minor corporation in the Imperium, never
near megacorporation status, its influence extended over most of
Diaspora and the Old Expanses.  Trybecorp's major products include
computer hardware, grav vehicles, farm equipment and heavy factory
machinery.  The company used Trybec as a manufacturing center and also
as a profit making enterprise in its own.
        The Collapse crippled Trybecorp, cutting it off from its suppliers
and markets.  Also large elements of the corporation were destroyed in
the Final War and during the collapse.  Since the founding of the Dawn
League, Trybecorp has been very interested in expanding civilization.
It funded the construction of Dawn Base, funded halfof the Dawn League
Scouts and urged the creation and expansion of the RCES. When the
Twelve were lost, it was a terrible blow to the citizens of Trybec, but
they have resolved to struggle on.

Vezina D344687-7
          Size: Small : D=4800km                Atmosphere:Thin Tainted
          Hydrographics: 40%                    Population: 2 million
          Government:Civil Service Bureaucracy  Law Level:Moderate
          Tech Level: 7 (Circa 1970)            Star port:Poor
        Vezina was the first world to be conqured by the Coalition.  The
actual conquest was quite by accident.  The largest TED on the planet
seized the Aurora, one of the Twelve.   In 1199 the Lirgishkhunan and the
Ashtabula launched a rescue raid which inadverently toppled the government.
After this the other TEDs on the planet surrendered.
        The RC has placed a group of RCSA officials in charge of the planet
Several bootstrap missions are in place, and a great deal of relic
technology is being recovered.  The people of Vezina are generally happy
with the conquest, the TEDs were not popular, and the RC is improving living
conditions immensly.  A few primitive neo-tribal societies are resisting the
Coalition, they are proving more a nuisance, than a threat.

Zloga E430225-9
          Size: Small : D=6400km                Atmosphere:Very Thin
          Hydrographics: None                   Population: 700
          Government: Participating Democracy   Law Level:Moderate
          Tech Level: 9 (Circa 2010)            Star port:Frontier
        Zloga is yet another boneyard world, the Final War destroyed
its life support systems.  Zloga was actually named Saloga before the
Collapse, but tech prospectors returning to the world misread the
original name, and it has since been known as Zloga.  There is a small
community of tech prospectors on the planet.   They have a small
habitat, from which they make forays into the dead cities.  Any
issues effecting the community is decided by a vote of all residents
over the age 14.

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 633
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 634

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) You know you've been playing too much Traveller.... by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  2) Re: You know you've been playing too much Traveller.... by Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
  3) Dark Nebula - sector and game by nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
  4) Re: TL 12  Shukugan-class SDB by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  5) Terran Population Matters by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  6) Re: GG skimming disadvantages by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  7) Re: USL travel times by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  8) Stateroom Size by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
  9) LOw Berth Life Extension by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 10) Simon's Vaporware Program Yet Again by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:10:03 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: You know you've been playing too much Traveller....
Message-ID: <199603212208.OAA25683@mom.hooked.net>

You know you've been playing the game too long when:

1)      You look at dogs, and think "What a cute little proto-Vargr!"

2)      *Your* dog is named Bzrk.

3)      You remember the Emperors List better than you remember your native
        country's own rulers.

4)      You can have an impassioned, 5-hour argument on the Battle Rider-
        vs.-Battleship debate.

5)      You are incapable of seeing a science-fiction movie without adapting
        it to Traveller.

6)      For six months, your every visit to the local game store began
        with the staff shouting "The Regency Sourcebook ISN'T HERE."

7)      You have the "Mayday" message from the CT cover committed to memory.

8)      You remember exactly where you were when you heard that Strephon
        had been killed.

9)      Whenever you hear someone say "It's a difficult task," you
        automatically think "He needs to roll a 7+."

10)     You sometimes say "Star Trek: The New Era." (Or "Traveller: The
        Next Generation...."

11)     Your handle/nick on your local BBS or IRC channel is whatever
        spelling of "Traveller" wasn't already in use....

And you know you've been reading TML too long when:

12)     You have priced tickets to Germany, and researched German laws on
        assault, after reading some of Hans Rancke's posts....
 -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
| Douglas E. Berry                              dberry@hooked.net |
|              Writer, Professional Driver, Pervert               |
|      Looking for a CDA-banned story?  Try Genesis 19:30-38      |
 -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:11:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: You know you've been playing too much Traveller....
Message-ID: <01I2LUBS6AVM8WWHUU@POMONA.EDU>

     You know you've been playing the game too long when not only did you find
the preceeding post extremely funny, but when after reading reason #9 felt the
need to point out that a difficult task requires an 11+!

Trent Smith


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 21:53 GMT
From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Dark Nebula - sector and game
Message-ID: <memo.826446@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In Digest 630, Chris Griffin asked:

>Can anyone tell me why Dark Nebula Sector is named as such?

The most *obvious* answer would be to tie it in with the boardgame
of the same name, which describes the Nebula as:

 'a cluster of systems connected by uncharted jump routes. This
area of space has not been fully explored and (at the beginning of
the game) constitutes an area avoided because of the difficulty of
travel within its borders.'

Players could send their exploration ships 'seek out new worlds'
in the Nebula's part of the board, which would allow them to role
on the Exploration Table. Possible results were awards of resource
points, and scientific breakthroughs that gave ships advantageous
DMs in combat or greater jump range.


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:44:29 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL 12  Shukugan-class SDB
Message-ID: <9603220244.AA19254@Rt66.com>

>    The design theory goes something like, ``SDB by their very nature
> do not need large active EMS arrays.  They lie await in ambush, hoping
> some ship or other makes the mistake of getting too close to a gas
> giant, asteroid field, or a world with large oceans.  When that happens,
> the SDB uses *passive * sensors to achieve a lock-on  (thus greatly
> reducing the possibility of detection) and then fires off a number of
> prepositioned missiles which kill the target.``

"greatly reducing" ???  the only difference is a -1DM for _passive_
detection if it goes active.  If the target is active, then the DM
doesn't matter.  With rules fixes, maybe, but not out of the box.

>    In summary, the Shukugan-class isn't *that* bad for a TL12 SDB, so
> long as you know how to deploy it.  Would I design it differently?  Of
> course, but then you can pretty much improve on any design, given
> enough time and motivation.

Sensor wise it is useless, IMO.  There isn't any sense in not having a
long range AEMS, you can always choose to keep it off, but you can't
turn it on if it isn't there.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:52:31 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Terran Population Matters
Message-ID: <199603221152.WAA12623@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:39:10 -0500
> From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Terran Fed Population
> Message-ID: <s15050cb.043@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
>
> Phillip McGregor writes:
>
> >But the above figure is outdated, as I pointed out, Terran
> >population is expected to top out at only 11 billion, down from
> >13 billion ... and the rate of population increase is declining.
>
>    That's true of right now, but on the larger scale of things, birth rates
> tend fluctuate depending on cultural influences.  Here in the U.S. there
> was a veritable population explosion after World War 2.  That followed a
> period during the Great Depression when birth rate were much lower
> than they are now.  To look say that the world population will top out at
> an arbitrary figure like 11 billion ignores all kinds of potential events
> between now and the end of the 21st century.

Perhaps. But that cuts both ways. And why the baby boom at the end of the war?
All those guys coming home? *AND* "Rosier the Riveter" being given the boot so
that those guys could have their old jobs back. And didn't many women just
*love* that. Which is why we have the women's lib movements and the declining
birthrates now.

> >Considering the small amounts of people that you could probably
> >dump offplanet to form colonies,
>
>    The colonization of Prometheus would have been accomplished easily
> enough.  An entire Earth-like planet, totally devoid of people a mere two
> week's journey away.  People would flock in droves at the opportunity to
> colonize.  Of course in their haste they would probably cause a near
> ecological disaster on Prometheus, as native flora and fauna are pushed
> aside by imported Terran stock.  Even that would probably not slow the
> growth of the colony.  Remember, the original Solomani Rim sourcebook
> by GDW described the discovery of Prometheus as being, "as
> momentous as the discovery of fire."  Sounds like an exodus followed to
> me.

I still do not see that, given the costs, a very large population could have
been dumped offworld, and all of those from low birthrate countries. What you
dump there comes off Terra's max pop, doesn't add to it. Even allowing for
the fact that pioneers *may* want bigger families (and that's am unproven and
dubious assertion given that we are *not* talking women for whom the only
career is having some man's babies! This is the *future*), this probably means
only a modest population growth figure.

> >and how could you assume that the planets in question could
> >develop a high tech economic base when half their population is
> >pregnant all the time?
>
>    You could easily develop a commune system in which several families
> live in a close cluster of dwellings.  Two of the adults could handle the
> child care responsibilities while the other 4-8 could work outside the
> home.  Much more efficient system.  Not all the women would be
> pregnant all the time, even with my suggested rate of growth.

Well, yes, you *could*. And Kibbutzes are *really* popular in the US? They
don't even seem to be popular in Israel ... the population is greying as kids
move off to the bright lights. They never attracted everyone anyway. They have
never been popular anywhere else in the western industrialised world either.
Its a bid ask for such a massive anti-individualistic change to occure -- and
amongst the sort of people most reknowned for their individualism, *pioneers*,
too!

> >Where do you get these figures from? Thin air? Seriously, where
> >*do* you get them from? I could just as easily say that in 300
> >years the population of Terra will be 1 billion. I have as much
> >justification (declining birthrate trends as societies become
> >more affluent) ... you provide no support for this amazing level
> >of growth.
>
>    My figures are based partially on figures in the TNE sourcebook.  A
> moderately conservative growth rate would have the population doubling
> every 70 years.

But is it "conservative" to have the population double every 100 years when
the currently available figures say that it will *PEAK* early next century at
11 billion, and then decline. No, I'd say that's *anything BUT* conservative.

> >Also, get real, the Terrans aren't going to incorporate the
> >conquered Vilani as easily as you blithely assume ...
>
>    Granted, how easily a world is absorbed would vary from location to
> location, but we are told in the Traveller text that overall it was relatively
> easily accomplished.  Assuming that the "Terran occupation forces"
> includes a few hundred marines and a naval officer who acts as Chief
> Administrator over the existing Vilani bureaucracy, you could gobble up a
> lot of real estate in a short time.

Yes, and I can see that the Vilani would *never* think of lying to the
administrator, or *disappearing* him and his troops with their own planetary
forces! Never in a million years! Rubbish. Of course they would be tempted to
do just that ... and the chance of retribution would be relatively small. In
any case, there is likely to be guerilla ops and the Vilani authorities are
more likely to be pro-guerilla, or at least anti-terran, than they are to be
pro-terran. After all, you never know when the thousand year reich ... er,
empire ... is coming back, do you?

>    There is mention of robot substitutes for crew in both MegaTraveller
> and TNE texts.  If you can't use them to replace humans, why can you
> program them with ship operation skills?  True, there's nothing that says
> "one robot can replace x number of crew," but it only takes a little
> common sense to figure things out.

But there are no rules for it!

> >And, in any case, there aren't 250 billion!
>
>    Again, my estimate based upon what is presented in the TNE manual.

Which is, unfortunately, *not* believable.

> >Artificial Wombs are mentioned nowhere in any of the materials I
> >have for CTRav, MTrav or TNE.
>
>    Perhaps not, but they would be a natural extension of existing and
> soon to be developed medical technology here on 20th century Earth.
> Ever hear of an incubator?

So what are we going to do, occupy the Ziru Sirka with day old chickens?
(Sorry, I couldn'r resist!) Seriously, see comments in the sister mailing list
to understand the problems with this ... memory dupe tech isn't available to
TL/16+ basically.

>    As for clones, I think that S:AAB does an excellent job of pointing out
> the kinds of problems that would develop when you start dumping
> cloned humans into society.  Clones of humans would probably be
> unthinkable ethically prior to first contact with the Vilani, but an attractiv
> alternative to being squashed like a bug after the Terrans realize what
> they are up against.

Perhaps. But the practical problems remain, and I think they are insoluble.

> >And they would be more expensive (inevitably) that live births
> >... and *still* require lots and lots of people to raise all
> >those babies to useful adulthood.
>
>    More expensive perhaps, but not necessarily prohibitively so.  As for
> raising them, the old fashion way would work just fine--again,
> adjustments would have to take place in society at large.

And, unfortunately, this is so unlikely that I wouldn't consider it a realistic
option.

> >But, as I have pointed out, there is no evidence that the
> >Terrans ever had such a population.
>
>    And there is no evidence that they didn't.  I merely present a theory that
> fits the existing canon.  If you wish to ignore canon, that's up to you.

Well, this is where we differ. There *is* no "canon" population figure for the
Terrans at this period.

> >*Exactly* what I have proposed ... and I suggest that it is this
> >*treason* is the reason for the situation.
>
>    Treason against the existing power structure perhaps, but it is also
> possible that he was motivated by a genuine love for the Confederation,
> and he realized that what the civilian government wanted to do would
> inevitably result in a premature end to all that he and his comrades (and
> generations before him) strived, and in some cases sacrificed their lives,
> to achieve.

typical militarist claptrap (in my conspiracy mode here!)! The Terrans wanted
to rule the Vilani Empire ... "[Estigarribia] realised that the Confederation
Government could not possibly control the vast territories of the Vilani
Imperium ..." (Imp Encyc pg. 36) ... and Hiroshi, like a typical "jerk on
horseback" believed that only *he* was qualified to do it. Sound like half the
petty dictators in Africa, Asia, and South and Central America justifying the
overthrow of a democratic government? Sure does to me! And, after all, that's
what my "conspiracy theory" states was actually the case ... and the evidence
certainly *can* be read that way!

> >Estigaribbia didn't have enough forces of his own to oppose the
> >Home Fleet, but allied himself treasonously with the Vilani in
> >return for being declared Emperor!
>
>    This might make an interesting story, but it is not canon.  Canon
> indicates that he did so with the approval of the majority of the
> Confederation population.

Er, no, sorry. You're wrong! ImpEncyc Pg. 36 (again) ... "Nearly all the fleet
sided with E both because it was composed largely of colonials, who were
under-represented under the Terran Confederation Government, and because of E's
careful preparation. The Confederation was dissolved without significant
resistance."

It does *not* state that he had the approval of a majority of the Terran
Confederation, merely that the Fleet supported him (and we only have the
Imperium's word for the claim that "nearly all" supported him ... he could
just as easily have spread loyalist forces thin to occupy the Ziru Sirka and
left his own (dis)loyal forces where he could use them to stage the coup. This
is classic coup tactics.). It also doesn't say that the colonials were the
majority of the Terran Confed's population -- merely that they were
under-represented (and this could as easily be his "black" propaganda again)
in the government. Maybe they only had 10% of the reps when they sould have
had 11%? It doesn't say they should have had 51% ... and whose word do we have
for the "fact" that the colonials "all" supported him. In politics it is
unusual for "all" of any group to support *anything* ... again, this could
easily be post-coup black propaganda. As for the rest of the TC's pop, there
is no indication that they supported him -- or were even given a chance to
express an opinion, as, after all, he dissolved it! And the "lack of
*significant* resistance" ... well, these are military-political weasel words
of the highest order! And, again, given that he planned this coup in advance,
he easily moved all loyal TC forces to where they could be defeated piecemeal
by his disloyal forces and their vilani partners in treason! A complete
"canon" explanation!

> >My explanation is that the Vilani were still using man-operated
> >(or overseen) machines in factories while the Terrans were using
> >completely roboticised factories of tremendous output, and that
> >they simply buried the Vilani in mass produced high tech weapons >and
> few troops.
>
>    Perhaps not totally automated, but automated to a much larger degree
> than is currently possible.  Imagine the Americans, Japanese, Brits,
> Germans, et. al. working cooperatively to solve the problem of rapid
> industrial expansion.  No question that the Terrans could have pulled it
> off.

Exactly!

Phil McGregor

> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:51:33 -0900
> From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Cloning TL's
> Message-ID: <v01540a00ad767a67c5d6@[137.229.100.65]>
>
> While a duplicate with memories intact is not possible (except possibly via
> psionics) until TL 16 (Crude Memory Transfer), and not feasable til 18,
> CLONING is first referenced on the TL Chart in MT Ref's Companion at TL 13,
> with "Cloned Body Parts"; however, there is reference to Growth Quikening
> at TL 10.
>
> Such Growth Quikening would most likely be used in colonial settlements and
> for clones, which seem to be implied to already exist, as the allowance for
> cloning body parts is listed as  "Futher advancements in Genetics allow..."
> specifc parts to be grown.

But without Memory Dupe tech the whole point of the so-called "tuber" colonies
is irrelevant ... see comments in the sister mailing list. Basically, you
can't force grow a brain in a tank ... you lose things like speech development
*permanently* once those centers are "complete" etc.

> True Geneering of sapients seems to be TL 14. (Same source)
>
> To Phil: Please make a point! You throw 3-4 screenfulls of the same *BS*
> for a week on to both lists, and it appears to be little more than
> re-hashing the origional idea which people have dissected, and found
> lacking. Do your research. READ THE TEXT, not just the tables! As for
> Solomani & Aslan, it points out that Geneering is TL 13. Doesn't outright
> say that cloning predates it, but COMMON SENSE does, especially with a read
> through of the tech table's accompanyying text.

Yep, read the text. And considered the implications. Too many people don't seem
to have done the latter. See note above re Memory Dupe. Many of the replies are
on the other list.

Phil


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 04:19:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GG skimming disadvantages
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960322041917.15224A-100000@kelly.teleport.com>

--
- the old Star Trek saw about nebulae could apply: being in a GG affects your
sensors. The guys outside can still track you due to the increased energy
output coming from the extra work your drives/CG field are doing in the GG's
high gravity.
--
 If that were true, then the old cannon SDB hiding in a GG with a bazooka
ready to pop a cruiser woulden't work.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 04:24:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: USL travel times
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960322042357.15224B-100000@kelly.teleport.com>

--(Hyphen)
- At 100 kph, it takes 50 _hours_ to touch down (just over 2 days!);
- At 40 kph (in comparision), it takes 125 _hours_ to land (5 days 5
hours!!);
- This is not economically feasable, nor would many worlds allow their flight
  paths to be regularly clogged for this long;
--
 If the thing travels like a brick, why would it have to 'glide' down?

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:43:12 -0600 (CST)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Stateroom Size
Message-ID: <199603221643.KAA21704@ConnectI.com>

In regards to stateroom size.
Roger Myhre |myhre@sn.no      |http://www.sn.no/~myhre/ wrote:

>In the Norwegian navy we got a sub class called ULA. There the crew has to=
=20
>share the bunks, and that sub is really cramped. Still they are out 14 days=
=20
>at a time.
>
>I was on board a missile patrol boat and bunked with 13 others in a=
 bunkarea=20
>not larger than a large stateroom in Traveller.
>
>When I design warships I install small staterooms to the officers and bunks=
=20
>to the genera=F8 crew.

First of all Subs are probably the best real world metatphor to use as
surface ships still have deck area where the crew can go out and look at the
sun, wind and waves.  Also in your missle patrol boat, how long continuous
did you stay at sea?  It is true that military often scrimps a the expense
of the crew, especially on non-nuclear subs.  The ULA is a Diesel-Electric
if I am not mistaken, and like most of her type crams about 80 crew into a
tube about 200 ft by 16 ft.  Most of that space is taken up by machinery and
the crew is squeezed in wherever that can fit themselves.  In between
torpedoes etc.  If the cruise is going to be fairly short (in WWII german
subs went out for 3 months)  In traveller this would be about 1 week, then
those crew accomodations would work but only for military vessels where the
crew is subject to strict discipline.  In a commercial or civilian vessel
the crew and passengers would never stand for it.  A US or Russian boomer
might be the best example of what a traveller startship is like.  It has a
large space alloted to containerized cargo (the nukes), a large high-tech
engineering section.  The big diff would be that crew req. for a traveller
ship of the same size are much smaller allowing more space per person.
besides even on a nuke, there is a fairly large common area (the Russian
Typhoon class even has a swimming pool in it!)

I guess the thing to remember is that people get used to what is allotted to
them, and they will expand or contract to fit the space allotted. =20
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com) =20
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above should not be interperted as=20
doctrine, dogma, or anything else.  However, if you really like=20
it then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:44:04 -0600 (CST)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: LOw Berth Life Extension
Message-ID: <199603221644.KAA21788@ConnectI.com>

Just a thought,

  If you slept each night in a Low berth, would you wake up rested?
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above should not be interperted as
doctrine, dogma, or anything else.  However, if you really like
it then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:18:21 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Simon's Vaporware Program Yet Again
Message-ID: <01BB184F.567AEC00@ppp063.on.rim.or.jp>

Simon, are you still following this?

Sorry, but I forgot to mention one other simple thing I think you should
include in your sector data reader.  I think it would be very helpful if it
automatically took the USP of the world and transformed it into a paragraph
in plain English.  Is this stating the obvious?  Just making sure.

Armand


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 634
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 635

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Baldur summary by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  2) My Take on RC papers by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  3) Re: Sleeping in Low Berths. by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  4) RC Worlds by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 634 by "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
  6) Re: Assorted Replies by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  7) Re:  TRAVELLER digest 634 by "Kelly St.Clair" <kstclair@PEAK.ORG>
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 634 by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  9) Is this thing on? by peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 15:08:09 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Baldur summary
Message-ID: <9603222008.AA10303@chara.gsu.edu>


Eamon sent this to me and asked me to forward it to the TML.

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:40:23 +0000
From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
To: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Message-Id: <0099FBAF.E02FADC0.6@v2.qub.ac.uk>
Subject: Baldur summary
Status: RO

Lewis,

Here's my Baldur summary:



Baldur's government, though classed as a Feudal Technocracy, could be better
classed as just a Technocracy.

The Council of Science runs all of Baldur's resources vital to Baldur's
development. A democratically elected assembly runs non-essential aspects
of planetary life, such as Tourism (;-) , Law Enforcement, etc. The assembly
can also raise points to be discussed by the Council of Science.

Many of L'Steich's Corporations survive in some form on Baldur. The largest
is the Hellenic Trade and Transport Corporation, which controls a large
slice of Baldur's merchant fleet. Ships include 2x 20,000 ton colonizer vessels
some Tukera Freighters, Frontier Transports, Bulk Carriers, and many Liners,
Subsidized Merchants, and Far Traders. Many ships were rated for J-3 and J-2
as it is impossible to make the Journey from L'Steich to it's former colonies
of Bestor and Baldur in a J-1 vessel (unless you want to arrive with little
maneuvering juice).

Baldur has access to a large number of vessels due to the fact that both it
and L'Steich had time to prepare for the onset of the virus. Many on L'Steich
evacuated to it's lower tech colony world when it became obvious that L'Steich
couldn't survive. Many evacuation ships didn't arrive, many that did limped
into orbit, some could be brought up to operating standards and are used by
Baldur today. Those that couldn't sit in the Mothball fleet, just above
Geostationary orbit - most gutted by the Proctors for equipment to keep
Baldur alive through the collapse.

Their Starport is impressive. Though only C-Class, it had to handle the
colonists who arrived in droves from L'Steich every year, and service the
vessels they came on. Half-Starport, half-colony, it's accomodations were
huge, designed to accomodate 100,000 people, and originally built at TL-9, it
was sufficiently primitive enough to survive the collapse.

RC politics. Though Centrist, and a close ally of Oriflamme, the Baldur govt is
becoming increasingly estranged from Oriflamme. They suspect their Technarchs
are bypassing the Auction, and denying them the equipment their planet needs to
survive and prosper. They are also angry at the way Oriflamme is treating their
Colony on Poyzen as a dumping ground for Oriflammen malcontents. Deep down they
despise the Technarchs, the Council of Science runs Baldur in order to
survive -
unlike their Oriflammen counterparts who enrich themselves at their planet's
expense.
If the Council can get evidence of Oriflamme breaching the Auction, they intend
to use it as a lever to get Oriflamme to support the upgrading of their
starport to B-class, as they fear a loss in Auction trade when Oriflamme's port
reaches A-class and Nike Nimbus's port reaches B-class.
They hope their colony on Poyzen will be sucessful, and that trade down through
L'Steich to Poyzen will eventually make it economic to re-develop their
homeworld, which they consider Bladur territory, along with Bestor.



Here's Tiger's comments:

>Overall, I like it.  I was wondering about the ships the Baldur has.  Where
>did they come from and how long have they been in service.  There wans't
>much travel between the stars after Virus hit (D&D Corp had only two or
>three ships, and they were only available for part of the 70 "dead" years).
>I am assuming that they were either stranded at L'Steich after Virus hit and
>recently recovered, or they were stranded in orbit around Baldur and parts
>weren't available for their repair until recontact occurred.

Most of the ships came from L'Steich when it became obvious that would couldn't
survive. Most were incapacitated in one way or another, many were raided
during the past 70 year for parts to keep Baldur running.


Let us know what you think, I'll try and get most of the rest of my Baldur
stuff into a computer soon.

All the best,

Eamon.

------- End of Forwarded Message


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 15:09:06 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: My Take on RC papers
Message-ID: <9603222009.AA10312@chara.gsu.edu>

Eamon sent this to me and asked me to forward it to the TML.

------- Forwarded Message

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:32:41 +0000
From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
To: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Message-Id: <0099FBAE.CCA0C560.9@v2.qub.ac.uk>
Subject: My Take on RC papers
Status: RO

Hi Lewis,

phew! You've been busy! I've got about 20 pages done on Baldur, but
still lots to type into the computer. I sent tiger a summary of my work on
Baldur - I'll mail that after these thoughts on your RC list.


Looks good, here's the worlds I've comments on.


>Aubaine A78A884-C
>          Size: Large : D=11,000km              Atmosphere: Dense
>          Hydrographics:100%                    Population:150 million Humans
>                                                           650 milion Schalli
>          Government: Civil Service Bureaucracy Law Level:Moderate
>          Tech Level: 12 (Avg Stellar)          Star port: Excellent

Good, but references in "The Death of Wisdom" suggest that Aubaine also has
some form of Constitutional Monarchy (Nobles still active).



>Baldur CAAA756-9
>          Size: Large : D=16,000km              Atmosphere: Exotic
>          Hydrographics:100%                    Population: 30 million
>          Government:Feudal Technocracy         Law Level: Moderate
>          Tech Level: 9 (circa 2010)            Star port: Routine
>        Baldur is a deathworld, its atmosphere is poisonous to most life, it
>is covered with seas of acid, and high gravity pulls at everything.
>It is only through human ingeniuity that life is sustained. The Baduri
>lived in vast underwater cities, on man made islands, and above it all in
>orbital habitats.  The Collapse threatend all of these. The Virus crashed
>the orbital habitats into the sea, threatened to open the airlocks on the
>subsurface cities, and tried to capsize the floating islands.  It was only
>through relentless effort, and great technical skill, that all life on the
>planet was saved from destruction. The Balduri know that life hangs by a
>thread, and the only thing between the RC and screaming chaos is the will
>to survive.

My own take on Baldur is a bit different. Baldur is a primordial world, little
free oxygen in the atmosphere, and ash filled due to Volcanic activity. The
Sea I think can't be acid - I don't think TL-9 (Or even their original TL-11)
could produce buildings (esp. seals) that could cope. Baldur's sea in mine
has volcanic byproducts dissolved and in suspension in it, making it
'poisonous' H2O. Remember the Shalli help out there - I think H2SO4 or
whatever would be unfeasible for even TL-12 to deal with economically.
My summary on Baldur will follow.



>Enkidu E510415-9
>          Size: Medium : D=8000                 Atmosphere: Trace
>          Hydrographics: None                   Population: 50 thousand
>          Government: Corporate                 Law Level: Moderate
>          Tech Level: 9 (circa 2010)            Star port: Frontier
>        Before the Collapse Enkidu was named Dono.  It was owned by a council
>of five corporations.  These weren't megacorporations, just small planetary
>companies.  They were Westlake Industries, Mogon Technologies, Cynder Data
>Systems, United Power Systems, and Blenkindo Enterprises.  Each corporation
>had its own territory, and used it to produce products for export throughout

I had Enkidu's corporations being from L'Steich, the Planet that colonized
Baldur. It seemed to be a bit of a power in the Pre-Collapse Imperium, so I
assumed that the Baldur-Meadsk main was heavily influenced by them.



>Eos   C674656-B
>          Size: Large : D=9600                  Atmosphere:Standard Tainted
>          Hydrographics: 50%                    Population: 5 million
>          Government: Feudal Technocracy        Law Level:Moderate
>          Tech Level:B (Avg Stellar)            Star port:Routine
>HELP, I drew a total blank. I am sure someone out there can come up
>with a good idea.

I'll give it a try - can't promise anything.



>Kruyter B000312-B

Good. I submitted to the list a while back that after the virus attack on
Nike Nimbus Kruytercorp might start specializing in SDB's - maybe transported
to their buyers by Transtar's Dawn Clippers?



>Ra E68659A-6

Ra was another of the L'Steich influenced worlds in my take. Many refugees from
L'Steich fled to Baldur, some got as far as Ra.



>Spencer   D89A568-7

Durn Teldorans!



>Spires  E894789-2

I wonder if there are many Psions on Spires?



Be seeing you,

Eamon.

------- End of Forwarded Message


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:23:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Sleeping in Low Berths.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960322151721.28585C-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.
Someone in the last digest asked if sleeping in a low berth would leave
you rested when you woke up.  I would say the answer was a definate no.
According to CT/MT rules, low berths are actually quite taxing on the
system and require a survival roll when one wakes up in one (so you
wouldn't last long sleeping in one on a regular basis).  Also, if one
assumes that a low berth halts all physiological activity, then you would
be halting a number of physiological processes (metabolization of fatigue
poisons, REM sleep, etc.) necessary for a good night's rest.  The "Micheal
Jackson" technique would not work, IMHO.

Happy Travellin',
Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca),   <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.    <0>
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.    <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html  <0>


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 16:29:48 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: E.Watters@queens-belfast.ac.uk
Subject: RC Worlds
Message-ID: <9603222129.AA10494@chara.gsu.edu>

Eamon said in response to the BARD paper on RC Worlds:

>Aubaine A78A884-C
> ...
>Good, but references in "The Death of Wisdom" suggest that Aubaine also has
>some form of Constitutional Monarchy (Nobles still active).
I never got the novels, I was waiting until the entire trilogy came
out. Can someone who has them, write up a paragraph on the government,
or just tell me what the relevant passeges are.
Is there any other infomation in the books that would be useful?


>Baldur CAAA756-9
>...
>My own take on Baldur is a bit different.
That great, I knew you were writing up Baldur, so I didn't invest much time in 
it.

In Eamon's Baldur Summary:
>Though Centrist, and a close ally of Oriflamme, the Baldur govt is
>becoming increasingly estranged from Oriflamme.They suspect their Technarchs
>are bypassing the Auction, and denying them the equipment their planet needs to
>survive and prosper.

I always thought that was just a few renegade technarchs. Becuase if
they avoid the auction at Oriflamme, it cuts into the Oriflamme economy
also.  I was thinking of an adventure that had something to do with
this. If I ever flesh it out, I'll post it.

>>Enkidu E510415-9
>I had Enkidu's corporations being from L'Steich, the Planet that colonized
>Baldur. It seemed to be a bit of a power in the Pre-Collapse Imperium, so I
>assumed that the Baldur-Meadsk main was heavily influenced by them.
I think we can incorporate that.  Hmmmm.  How about the corporations
were founded by L'Steich  residents. The corporations' major market was
L'Steich and the associated worlds such as Baldur.  How about instead
of fleeing to Nike Nimbus they fled to Ra, POT says Ra is populated with 
refugees.


>>Ra E68659A-6
>Ra was another of the L'Steich influenced worlds in my take. Many refugees from
>L'Steich fled to Baldur, some got as far as Ra.
That works too. I think Ra should have several groups of Refugees, it
seems very cosmopoliton. A bunch from L'Steich and more from Enkidu and
probably some from
a few worlds that are still dead. Maybe from Thoenzant subsector, just
over the border.

Also I think I'll change the name of the family that lived on Ra,
Striench its too close to L'Steich.  I'll figure it out later.


>>Kruyter B000312-B
>Good. I submitted to the list a while back that after the virus attack on
>Nike Nimbus Kruytercorp might start specializing in SDB's - maybe transported
>to their buyers by Transtar's Dawn Clippers?
Steve Bonneville did an estimate of the capacity of various A & B
shipyards in the RC, it got posted to the TML a while ago:

>Shipbuilding and overhaul capacity:
>  Aubaine         960,000                   tech-12 class-A
>  Oriflamme     1,120,000                   tech-9  class-B
>  Aurora            8,400 (O:RCN)           tech-11 class-B
>  Trybec            8,400 (O:RCES)          tech-10 class-B
>  Kruyter               4 (O:Kruytercorp)   tech-11 class-B

That's in tons, so Kruyter doesn't have much shipbuilding capacity.  I
think the capacity is based on population, and Kruyter doesn't have
much of a population.  But it is heavily funded by outside sources, so
it probably has some repair facilities, but no building capacities.



>Spires  E894789-2
I wonder if there are many Psions on Spires?
Probably.
The world that would have lots of of Psions, is Lucifer, with all those
crackpot mystics, wierd cults and other strangness, Psions fit right in.


Lewis

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:35:08 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 634
Message-ID: <199603222210.QAA23245@cube.ice.net>

You know you've been playing too much Traveller when,

1). You can do High Guard Ship design calculations off the top of
      your head.

2). You can name all the Classic books off the top of your head

3). You can do book 3 planetary generation off the top of your head

4). You go to a convention to run a Traveller game, and it takes a
hand truck to transport all your books
==========================================================
Shadowcat[AKA Kevin Walsh] kwalsh@ice.net
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh
"There is a fine line between sanity and Insanity,
 I dance that line"
Wargamer, Filker, SCA Herald, genneral loony




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:53:46 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Assorted Replies
Message-ID: <9603222253.AA19417@Rt66.com>


> 4.GG REFUELLING VULNERABILITY
>
> Merrick asked for some rationale as to why GG refuelling leaves your ship at
> risk.
>
> "Refuelling operations for a task force are another danger point, as forces
> which are low on fuel and maneuvering in a gravity well are especially
> vulnerable". (_High Guard_, p 19)
>
> And yes, these would be house rules if added to the other flavours of space
> combat rules.

[some snipped]

> BTW, an SDB may not be able to hurt a CruRon or BatRon - but if it is sitting
> in a GG, its real targets are the fuel tankers, no? Look at the Azhanti High
> Lightning's fuel shuttles: only 40G armour, 2G, no agility, DefDM +9 (MT stats
> from_Arrival Vengance_). Knock out a few of these, and suddenly an
> unstreamlined strike force is in trouble.

Yeah, but the AHL isn't a good model since it's not a good ship :-)
Take some TCS designed squadrons on.  Or just think---if only tankers
are vulnerable, and they get killed easily, there will be no tankers.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:33:10 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kstclair@PEAK.ORG>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  TRAVELLER digest 634
Message-ID: <199603222333.PAA23831@PEAK.ORG>

>And you know you've been reading TML too long when:
>
>12)     You have priced tickets to Germany, and researched German laws on
>        assault, after reading some of Hans Rancke's posts....

Make that Australia, and Phil "The Truth Is (Way) Out there" McGregor...


------------------------
Kelly St.Clair
kstclair@kira.peak.org

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 01:27 NZST
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 634
Message-ID: <m0u0TLj-0002lPC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

Re : David C. Broussard
>A US or Russian boomer might be the best example of what a traveller startship
>is like....besides even on a nuke, there is a fairly large common area (the
>Russian Typhoon class even has a swimming pool in it!)

Yes, true; but if my memory of documentaries about Typhoon class boomers is
correct, we're talking about a pool the size of a spa pool ( but twice as deep
). You could probably fit six to eight good friends in it ( standing up ). I
mention this because the phrase "swimming pool" conjours up visions of a 50
metre olympic size pool with full landscaped surrounds, and deck chairs
scattered around, and ( if memory serves ) I believe the Typhoons pool is housed
in what might be described as a small steel bathroom. :-)


Re: Armand Suarez
>Subject: Simon's Program Yet Again
>
>Simon, are you still following this?

Definitely.

>Sorry, but I forgot to mention one other simple thing I think you should
>include in your sector data reader.  I think it would be very helpful if it
>automatically took the USP of the world and transformed it into a paragraph
>in plain English.  Is this stating the obvious?  Just making sure.

Yes. This was the reason I embarked upon this project in the first place. UPPs
seemed so cold, and also difficult to use unless you had memorised all the world
creation tables.

For those who need a status report at present, I have just finished redesigning
the data structures ( to cope with the large number of ideas furnished by TML
readers ) and have begun redesigning the interface to cope with this. Those who
were hoping for a display of the inner system of a hex will be disapointed to
learn that this proved to be to difficult to achieve at this point, primarily
because I couldn't come up with an acceptable data structure to house the
information required to draw it. I did try ( pouring through the Scouts book ),
but found the task too complex to attempt at present.

If someone else (with lots of experience in designing solar systems ) is
interested in putting together a data structure which works for ALL cases, then
I'd love to hear from them. This data structure should be as normalised as is
practical for relational use ( and if you don't understand what I mean by this,
then you don't have the knowledge to do the job - sorry ).

Failing this, perhaps one of the chaps writing sector generators may have an
idea or two about this.

Otherwise, I'll revisit the topic when the initial version is stable, and
everyone is happy with it.

Simon J Mahony ( simonm@ramhb.co.nz )

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:43:30 -0500
From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Is this thing on?
Message-ID: <199603231543.KAA16010@mars.superlink.net>

        Sorry for the blatant waste of bandwidth, but I haven't seen any
mail from this list in a while... Is the list up or down? or is it my ISP?
       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]
  _] "Those who fail to learn from history                          _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 635
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 636

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 635 by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
  2) Re: YKYBPTTMW: by jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
  3) Dead lists? by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  4) You know you've read the TML too long... by Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
  5) Re: Dead lists? by Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
  6) YKYBPTMT by AQLH90D@prodigy.com (MR JON G FULLER)
  7) Swimming Pool by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 635 by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 21:38 GMT
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 635
Message-ID: <memo.877999@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <199603231821.NAA27471@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>

  > From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
  >
  > 4). You go to a convention to run a Traveller game, and it takes a
  > hand truck to transport all your books

Real Refs have everything memorised...

  > From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  >
  > Re : David C. Broussard
  > > A US or Russian boomer might be the best example of what a traveller
  > > startship is like....besides even on a nuke, there is a fairly large
  > > common area (the Russian Typhoon class even has a swimming pool
  > > in it!)
  >
  > Yes, true; but if my memory of documentaries about Typhoon class
  > boomers is correct, we're talking about a pool the size of a spa pool

On a similar subject, there was a recent TV series about the history of
submarines. In the last episode, they asked a British SSBN captain how the
crew passed the time on patrol - apparently, his boat has a model railway
set up in the missile room, with the track running round the launch tubes!
Another has a Scalextric set, and I forget what the others have. Could be
nice and confusing for PCs to find something similar on an old SDB...


---===---
Andrew Boulton

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:47:07 -0500
From: jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: YKYBPTTMW:
Message-ID: <199603232147.QAA10998@pipe11.nyc.pipeline.com>

On Mar 22, 1996 13:34:51, 'traveller@mpgn.com' wrote:


>You know you've been playing the game too long when:
>
>
>5)      You are incapable of seeing a science-fiction movie without
adapting
>it to Traveller.

" It was the Third Impeium of Mankind ... When the Great War came
upon us all"...

>
>And you know you've been reading TML too long when:
>
>12)     You have priced tickets to Germany, and researched German laws on
>assault, after reading some of Hans Rancke's posts....


And you know you haven't been reading the TML enough when you
think German law has anything to do with Hans, who's from Denmark.


--
John H Bogan           jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:46:26 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: gdw-beta@qrc.com, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Dead lists?
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960323224626.00673df0@mail.usa.net>

        Are these lists really this dead, or did I just get kicked off?
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 17:43:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: You know you've read the TML too long...
Message-ID: <199603232243.RAA02641@access5.digex.net>

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
> 12)     You have priced tickets to Germany, and researched German laws on
>         assault, after reading some of Hans Rancke's posts....

Of course, Hans lives in Denmark....

Rob Dean
(TML Dinosaur)
robdean@access.digex.net



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 17:50:29 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: David Golden <goldendj@qrc.com>, gdw-beta@qrc.com, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Dead lists?
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960323225029.006b6950@mail.ultranet.com>

If you did, I'm in good company. I haven't gotten anything from the TML or
XBOAT in weeks.

At 15:46 3/23/96 -0700, David J. Golden wrote:
>        Are these lists really this dead, or did I just get kicked off?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
"[S]enior Administration officials, including Bentsen and Panetta, concede
that the professed shock at higher deficit estimates issued after the
election was largely feigned.  Moreover, the new Clinton team issued
initial budget projections soon after taking office that put absolutely
the worst face possible on the deficit outlook, manipulating data to
reinforce the impression that Bush had left Clinton with a fiscal
nightmare."  --   Los Angeles Times, April 24, 1994, p. D1.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:31:09 EST
From: AQLH90D@prodigy.com (MR JON G FULLER)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: YKYBPTMT
Message-ID: <013.04248516.AQLH90D@prodigy.com>

You know you've been playing too much Traveller when,

>1). You can do High Guard Ship design calculations off the top of
>      your head.
>
>2). You can name all the Classic books off the top of your head
>
>3). You can do book 3 planetary generation off the top of your head
>

You can actually take _off_ the top of your head.

Jon Fuller
http://pages.prodigy.com/fuller/


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:04:21 -0600 (CST)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Swimming Pool
Message-ID: <199603240604.AAA13095@ConnectI.com>

>Yes, true; but if my memory of documentaries about Typhoon class boomers is
>correct, we're talking about a pool the size of a spa pool ( but twice as deep
>). You could probably fit six to eight good friends in it ( standing up ). I
>mention this because the phrase "swimming pool" conjours up visions of a 50
>metre olympic size pool with full landscaped surrounds, and deck chairs
>scattered around, and ( if memory serves ) I believe the Typhoons pool is
housed
>in what might be described as a small steel bathroom. :-)

OK, OK, my memory of this comes from the Discovery documentary called Steel
Sharks.  The biggest thing I remember was that although the swimming plool
was small (it was more like a hot tub), it was in a room that looked about
50ft long by 20 feet wide that was two stories high.  It had lots of workout
equipment, and was basically the gymnasium.  The Typhoon is the largest sub
ever built, and although it crams the crew in tight, it also has the best
rec facilities ever on a sub.

The Ohio class boomer by contrast ia smaller, and allots about the same bunk
space per crewmember.  The US goes in for high tech entertainment instead of
a gym etc.  They provide movies, video games, etc.  Still these ships are
similar in size to say a Destroyer or Light Cruiser in Traveller terms.
When you have 100 crewmembers, it is probably a good idea to install bunks
and cam the crew in, then use communal rec facilities.

Once again the problem arises in small ships.  I still feel that there
should be a little bit of space alloted to recreation on even say a far
trader.  Maybe just 5 DTons.  That would allow for a small weight room, or a
galley, or a multipurpose room.  Luxury ships would definately require LOTS
of space for recreation.  This would account for the ticket price of
10,000Cr plus.  I still think that this is a number pulled out of the air as
it costs a pilot over 1 months salary to purchase a ticket to the next
system. (Base salary what 6,000Cr/month.)  The problem here once again is
who the heck can afford to travel?  Any ideas, I certainly would like to
know!!!!
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 21:33:23 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 635
Message-ID: <199603241033.VAA11315@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kstclair@PEAK.ORG>
> Subject: Re:  TRAVELLER digest 634
>
> >And you know you've been reading TML too long when:
> >
> >12)     You have priced tickets to Germany, and researched German laws on
> >        assault, after reading some of Hans Rancke's posts....
>
> Make that Australia, and Phil "The Truth Is (Way) Out there" McGregor...

Sure, but didn't your mom tell you that you should never listen to strange
people (with crazy theories) on the 'Net?!

Oh, and Aussie assault laws (the ones that apply in NSW, anyway) are similar to
US ones ... hope that helps y'all ;-}

Phil McGregor

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 636
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 637

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Laser Canon by odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
  2) Re: Dead lists? by Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
  3) Mailing List Update by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  4) Question... by lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B lynch-Blosse)
  5) Re: You know you've been playing too much Traveller when... by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
  6) Re: TRAVELLER digest 636 by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  7) Re: TRAVELLER partial digest 637 by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:32:15 -0500
From: odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Laser Canon
Message-ID: <199603242034.OAA01293@falcon.inetnebr.com>

  Fresh from his last crusade against the tyrrany of the rules lawyers,
Odysseus prepares to start another war...

  IMO, Fire, Fusion and Steel was one of the best game supplements to be
released in a long time.  For the first time, we had a coherent and
relatively consistent method of designing just about any technological item
for Traveller.  However, like any other supplement, it has its problems.
  One of the most glaring errors is in the area of laser weapons.  While
they got a few things right, and it can be argued that the design rules for
heavy lasers is reasonably accurate, some of the methods covering small
arms and heavy weapons lasers are, for the most part, dead wrong.  I'll try
to address my arguments against (or in favor of) each particular section as
I present my latest treatise on...


Small Arms Lasers
   (or, The Only Canon I Need is a Laser Canon)
  Disclaimer:  I've decided to concentrate on CLC lasers of TL-11+, as I
never did have the patience to try and figure out the DEI laser design
sequence.  If anyone has helpful advice or suggestions, I'd appreciate
them.


1.  Tech Level
        The tech level at which the laser is built affects all its major
components and functions - the size and mass of its Lasing Assembly, the
wavelength of light that can be produced, the mass of its power supply, and
in the case of chemical lasers, the mass of its fuel cartridges and
reaction chamber.  When a small arms laser is being designed, the builder
must also designate whether the laser is tunable or fixed wavelength, and
if it is pulsed or continuous wave.
        Tunable lasers appear at TL7, with the introduction of dye lasers.
These are primitive, however, and require 1 hour of maintenance per kg of
Lasing Assembly to change the frequency of the laser, and a
Difficult:Electronics task.  Dye lasers are also limited in power; they are
incapable of producing more than 5000 Kj (0.005Mj).  Free-electron lasers
appear in late TL9, and are tunable down to UV wavelengths.  The
development of chemical lasers at TL11 enables each laser to be "tuned" to
multiple wavelengths by simply changing the ammunition.  The reaction
chamber must be "dry-fired" using an inert cleaning solution before
changing the chemicals, requiring only a few seconds.
        All small arms lasers (and mounted squad support lasers) are
assumed to be pulsed, firing bursts of light of very short duration (0.01
to 0.001 second), delivering a lot of energy over a small area and causing
explosive vaporization damage.


2.  Gravitic Focusing
        What a cop-out this was!  None of the other energy weapons, not
particle accellerators, nor meson guns, have this option.  Why lasers?  In
my game I've eliminated this ridiculous kludge; I recommend other do so as
well.  You end up with much more interesting and much less unrealistic
weapons.


3.  Lasing Assembly
 FFS has this one dead wrong.  The effectiveness of a laser is determined
by its length, not its diameter.  Small arms are usually made as compact as
possible, and this means one doesn't have the luxury of building a "Focal
Array" 5cm or more in diameter.
        Select the length of the lasing assembly (LA).  The longer the
Assembly, the tighter the beam can be focused.  The weapon's intended
function determines the length of the LA; the chart below lists typical
lengths.
        Weapon                LA length
        Snub/Holdout      5cm
        Pistol                       15cm
        Carbine              25cm
        Rifle                         35cm
        Sniper Rifle            50cm

        The weapon's effectiveness is determined by a combination of its
_lasing assembly length_ and _beam diameter_.  The beam diameter must be as
tight as possible for the weapon's power level in order to achieve the best
possible effective range.  Designers have little control over this.  The
beam diameter is determined by the following formula:

                        Bd =3D (E^(1/3))/pi
                        where:  E is Discharge Energy in joules
                                              pi is pi
                                              Bd is Beam Diameter, in
millimeters
      If you're wondering where I got the formula for this, or if you've tri=
ed
      (and failed) to find it, don't bother.  It's kind of a derivative of
      the G3G laser Bd formula, but made a little less cumbersome.  It
      produces similar results, with a lot fewer keypresses on the calculato=
r.


4.  Discharge Energy
        Specify the amount of output energy that will be fired by the
laser, in megajoules (Mj).  The higher the discharge energy, the greater
the damage, and the more equipment is needed to support the laser and
supply the required energy.
        Once the discharge energy has been determined, calculate the volume
and mass of the Lasing Assembly.  The volume of the LA is equal to the
square of its beam diameter multiplied by =BC, and multiplied by its length,
discharge energy (in Mj) and its volume modifier from the table below.
                Vol=3D(Bd^2)x pi x L x Mj x Vm    in cubic centimeters (cc)
      Note:  Use the Beam diameter measurement in millimeters in the above
             formula.  I don't know why this works, but it does.

                Lasing Assembly Volume Multipliers
                TL                 Vm
                7-8               10
                9                                  5
                10-11            2
                12-15            1
                16-19            0.5
                20+                0.2

                Mass=3DVol                in grams (g)
                Price=3DVol                          in Credits (Cr)
     Note:  I've tried to smooth the TL-related improvements in laser power-
                          to-mass ratios here.  It seems to produce better
results.

        Energy Efficiency and Input Power:  All lasers require a certain
amount of energy input to produce laser energy, defined as Input Energy
(IE), for each shot fired.  To find the amount of Input Energy required,
divide the pulse energy in Mj by the Energy Efficiency rating, calculated
below.

                Efficiency Rating=3D(TL-4) x 0.05 < 1.0

        No laser at any tech level may have an Efficiency rating higher
than 0.95.  Again, this is an attempt to smooth out the rate of
improvement.


5.  Laser Performance Rating
        A laser's performance is determined by multiplying its length (L)
by the range factor at the laser's tech level.  This is the laser's
effective range, the range at which it can most efficiently focus its
energy on a spot equal to its beam diameter.  Beyond this range, its power
level decreases due to beam divergence and diffraction.  Effective range is
measured in kilometers, and is not usually used in the short ranges of
personal combat.  It is, however, used to determine the damage inflicted by
the laser.

        Laser Range Factors
        TL         Range Factor/Wavelength of light             Code
        7                   3 (3,000 nm - Infrared)
IR
        8                  20 (500 nm - Visible)
VL
        9                  33 (300 nm - Near Ultraviolet)        NUV
        10                50 (200 nm - Ultraviolet)                         =
  UV
        11-14         100 (100 nm - Far Ultraviolet)               FUV
        15             1,000 (10 nm - Extreme Ultraviolet)      EUV
        16             2,000 (5 nm - Near X-Ray)
NXR
        17             5,000 (2 nm - X-Ray)                                 =
  XR
        18            10,000 (1 nm - X-Ray)
XR2
        19            50,000 (200 pm - Far X-Ray)                        FXR
        20           100,000 (100 pm - Extreme X-Ray)         EXR
        21           200,000 (50 pm - Near Gamma Ray)         NGR
        22           500,000 (20 pm - Gamma Ray)                          GR
        23         1,000,000 (10 pm - Gamma Ray)                          GR=
2

    nm =3D nanometers (0.000000001) meters
    pm =3D picometers (0.000000000001) meters

        Calculate effective range by multiplying the laser's LA length in
centimeters by the range factor and dividing the total by 100.
                Er=3D(L x Rf)/100

        Use the atmospheric range modifier table on page 128 of FFS to
determine atmospheric performance.

Atmospheric Range Modifiers
Atmosphere                 VL and IR     UV and beyond
Vacuum (0)                    1.0                     1.0
Trace (1)                      1.0                    0.9
Very Thin (2, 3)         0.5                  0.1
Thin (4, 5)                  0.2                      0.02
Standard (6, 7)   0.1                 0.01
Dense (8, 9)                0.05                     0.005
Exotic (A+)                  0.01                    0.001

6.  Define Short Range
        The configuration of the weapon determines the actual short range.

                Short Range (meters) =3D 200 x Configuration Multiplier

                Configuration         Cm
                Snub                                 0.2
                Pistol                             0.4
                Bullpup                    0.9
                Two-Handed                      1.3
                Optic Sights (TL7)       1.05
                Optic Sights (TL8)       1.10
                Optic Sights (TL9+)     1.15

7.  Combat Ratings
        Small arms lasers have two combat ratings, range and damage.

        Combat Ranges:
                Short =3D Short range
                Medium =3D 2x Short range
                Long =3D 4x Short range
                Extreme =3D 8x Short range

        Damage:
        Calculate the beam's intensity  at each range using the following
formula.  The results are used to determine the damage level of the laser
at each range band.  If the laser is intended for selective pulse rates
(multiple pulses per charge), calculate intensity and damage levels for
each firing rate by dividing the intensity by the pulse rate.

                Intensity =3D DE (1/(R2))
                        R =3D (Range band value)/(Effective Range)
                        If R < 1, treat it as 1.

        Damage =3D 50 (=88I), drop fractions


Lasers with intensity levels above 1.5 may have penetration ratings.

        IPR =3D (=88I) x 0.8

        Penetration ratings are expressed as fractions; ie, an IPR of 3.4
rounds to 3, which is expressed as 1/3.


8.  Power Source:
        The CLC design systems in Fire, Fusion and Steel seemed to work
pretty well so I left it alone.


9.  Crew
        Man-portable small arms lasers automatically have a crew of one;
for these, this step is superfluous.  If a laser is tripod mounted, as in
support lasers, or vehicle mounted as in coaxial guns, a loader or gunner
position may be needed.


10.  Furnishings and Support Hardware
        Heavy weapons and small arms lasers, though usually man-portable,
may be equipped with tripods or bipods to assist in firing.  Firing from a
bipods increases the short range of a laser by 30%; firing from tripods
doubles it.
        Bipods mass 10% of the loaded mass of the weapon and cost Cr50 plus
ten times the bipod's mass (in kg) (50+[10Mb]).  The mass of a bipod is
included in the total mass of a laser.
        Tripods mass 50% of the loaded mass of the weapon and cost Cr100
plus ten times the tripod's mass (100+[10Mt]).  The tripod's mass is not
included in the total mass of the laser and should be listed seperately.

Cooling Systems:  No changes.

Small Arms Body:  No changes.

Weapon Length:  The following applies only to CLC weapons.
        To find the length of the weapon, add the length of its Lasing
Assembly and receiver.  Receiver length for CLC lasers depends on the type
of magazine it uses.  Receivers for grip magazines are 3x the length of the
CLC; for box or cassette magazines, add 150mm to the length of the CLC.
The housing of the weapon adds no significant length, nor does the Reaction
chamber, as it is assumed to be equal in length to the Lasing Assembly.
 The length of the weapon is equal to the combined lengths of its Lasing
Assembly, receiver and any accessories.

Accessories:  No changes.

Physical Characteristics:  No changes.  Well, one.  When describing the CLC
cartridge, list the tech level and wavelength code with it.  Effective
ranges may also be calculated for each wavelength the laser is capable of
using, if you want to.


=46inal Disclaimer:  Nothing I've presented here should be construed as bein=
g
"canon", "official", or anything else I've already chosen to disregard.
Those who believe in "canon" should stick to religious debates, where such
claptrap belongs.  If you like this stuff, by all means use it (and feel
free to modify it to suit your needs, desires or godlike whims).  If you
don't, well, don't.  Agree, or disagree, but don't flame.
  And if you believe in "canon", continue sitting on your thumbs.

                +
                -\        "I should'a taken that
                | |      /       left toin at Albuquoiqe."
                | |       _
       _        | |      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/_________odysseus@inetnebr.com
                                 PGP 2.6.2 Public Key available



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:37:40 +0100 (MET)
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
To: goldendj@qrc.com
Cc: gdw-beta@qrc.com, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Dead lists?
Message-ID: <199603242237.XAA29968@gleen.dtek.chalmers.se>

>         Are these lists really this dead, or did I just get kicked off?
>  ___________________________________________________________________
>   Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
>   goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  I still get them.

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 21:51:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Mailing List Update
Message-ID: <199603250251.VAA17105@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>

Its time for my rare mailing list update.  Arn't you glad I keep these short?

Some time in mid-April, we are going to move the mailing list from a computer
in our New York office, to a computer in our Florida office.  At that time, we
will also be changing mailing list software from listproc to majordomo.  I don't
like software that tries to interpret bounces and unsubscribe people at its
own whim.

For those who have found themselves off the list, it appears to be the bounce
handlers that are nailing you.  At least the whole list hasn't been set to
postpone in a few months.

Thanks for the bandwidth.
Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- s:++ a34 w+ !v C++>++++ UU++++$ P---
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | L+ E--- W+++ N+++ o K-  w+ O- M-- V-- PS+ PE
Contrary to popular belief,  | (-po+) Y-- PGP- t++ !5>++ X-- R+++ tv+++ b DI+++
I don't know what I'm doing. | D G+ e++ h---- r+++ y++++ (Geek Code 3.14)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:18:06 +1300
From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B lynch-Blosse)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Question...
Message-ID: <v01540b01ad7bcc7d647f@[130.217.146.15]>

Hi there,

With regards to this "You know you've been playing too much Traveller...."
thread, does anyone have a copy of number 7 lying arround:

>7)      You have the "Mayday" message from the CT cover committed to memory.

Also

>5)      You are incapable of seeing a science-fiction movie without adapting
>it to Traveller.

Is'nt this one of the great things about this SF-RPG? I mean, it is not
stuck in one genera(?) like StarWars or StarTrek. If a ref wants the
players to meet Cpt. Kirk, then they can. There could also be a meeting
between the aforementioned Cpt. Kirk, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and anyone
else for that matter. In fact, there could be a
resturant-and-the-end-of-the-universe thing where different universes meet
and people from ST, SW, Alien, Red Dwarf etc.

Just a thought.


Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  New Zealand                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
        "Fighting for Freedom in the Far Future"-Cpt. P.H. Blake. RCES
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  New Zealand                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
        "Fighting for Freedom in the Far Future"-Cpt. P.H. Blake. RCES
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 13:05:00 PST
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: TML <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: You know you've been playing too much Traveller when...
Message-ID: <31570AC0@pc136>



"Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net> said:

> You know you've been playing too much Traveller when,
<snip>
> 4). You go to a convention to run a Traveller game, and it takes a
> hand truck to transport all your books

Don't be silly! All you need are 2D6 and a few players!

Kind Regards

Dave Elrick

 -------------------------------------------------------------
"But the rules say...."
"Damn! You mean this game has rules?!"

     Quote attributed to Jim (Bear) Peters
 -------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 02:06 NZST
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 636
Message-ID: <m0u1Cuz-0002l6C@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

re: Andrew Boulton

>On a similar subject, there was a recent TV series about the history of
>submarines. In the last episode, they asked a British SSBN captain how the
>crew passed the time on patrol - apparently, his boat has a model railway
>set up in the missile room, with the track running round the launch tubes!
>Another has a Scalextric set, and I forget what the others have. Could be
>nice and confusing for PCs to find something similar on an old SDB...

Now that's the sort of colour most campaigns lack. Nice one.


Re: David C. Broussard

>OK, OK, my memory of this comes from the Discovery documentary called Steel
>Sharks.

Try "Sharks of Steel". Geez, I'm in a picky mood tonight :-)

>The biggest thing I remember was that although the swimming plool
>was small (it was more like a hot tub), it was in a room that looked about
>50ft long by 20 feet wide that was two stories high.  It had lots of workout
>equipment, and was basically the gymnasium.

You may be right. My recollection was that the gym and the pool were in
adjoining rooms, but it might have been a deceptive camera angle.

>Luxury ships would definately require LOTS
>of space for recreation.  This would account for the ticket price of
>10,000Cr plus.

True. Imagine trying to look after a bunch of pampered, opinionated rich people
( nothing like a stereotype to get things going ) who are shut in a confined
space with only each other for company for a week ? No wonder you need to have a
trained steward on board whenever you carry passengers.

>I still think that this is a number pulled out of the air as
>it costs a pilot over 1 months salary to purchase a ticket to the next
>system. (Base salary what 6,000Cr/month.)  The problem here once again is
>who the heck can afford to travel?

Good question. Although as far as the pilots salary bit is concerned, I can't
see this as any different than the situation of one of todays ships captains
trying to pay for a cruise on his luxury liner, or an airline pilot paying for a
first class ticket on the plane he flies. Anyway, "pilot"s will usually be in
the employment of the owner of the vessel, and won't need to think about paying.
 And within any Starship Line there would probably be a staff discount system
anyway.

I agree that the number was probably plucked out of the air, but it might be
possible to justify it by comparing the cost of transporting passengers vs cargo
at standard cargo rates ( taking into account the stewards required to keep them
happy, etc ). Any of you spreadsheet wiz-kids want to take a shot at this ?

Getting back to the price, and your final question : I guess only the well off
could afford to travel this way. Or those on large corporate expense accounts. I
suppose if you really want to know, drop in to the Concorde terminal in New York
sometime, and ask them :-)

Simon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:39:39 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER partial digest 637
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960325163939.006bb6cc@mail.usa.net>

At 06:56 PM 3/24/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:32:15 -0500
>From: odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Laser Canon
>Message-ID: <199603242034.OAA01293@falcon.inetnebr.com>

>        Tunable lasers appear at TL7, with the introduction of dye lasers.
>These are primitive, however, and require 1 hour of maintenance per kg of
>Lasing Assembly to change the frequency of the laser, and a
>Difficult:Electronics task.  Dye lasers are also limited in power; they are
>incapable of producing more than 5000 Kj (0.005Mj).  Free-electron lasers
                   Severely wrong ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

5,000 Kj = 5,000,000 J = 5  Mj

0.005 Mj = 5,000 J = 5 Kj

 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 637
***************************
TRAVELLER Digest 638

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Life in High Passage by Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
  2) re: Laser Canon by bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
  3) Re: GET TRAVELLER TML96-633 (1/1) by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  4) Re: You know you've been playing too much Traveller when... by Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
  5) Save Space: Above and Beyond. by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  6) Scharorst Class Heavy Cruiser by "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:03:18 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Life in High Passage
Message-ID: <9603251903.AA16471@ lrmi.com>


simonm@ramhb.co.nz wrote

>
>True. Imagine trying to look after a bunch of pampered, opinionated rich
people
>( nothing like a stereotype to get things going ) who are shut in a confined
>space with only each other for company for a week ? No wonder you need to
have a
>trained steward on board whenever you carry passengers.
>

In the old "Dumarest of Terra" books, which I think inspired large parts of
traveller (low passage for instance), High Passage included enough Slow (do
I have the speed right?) drug to spend he whole trip experiencing about one
minute per hour.  Made the steward's job a lot easier.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:35:14 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: re: Laser Canon
Message-ID: <9603251935.AA29051@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>


odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski) writes some stuff about lasers:

>Tunable lasers appear at TL7, with the introduction of dye lasers.
Dye lasers would make lousy weapons. They're notoriously tempermental,
limited in power, heavy, inefficient, and poorly adapted to ultra-high-energy/
ultra-low-pulserate...all to a degree that
would completely offset any benifit from being tunable in a weapon.
And I say that from here at LLNL, where probably the best dye lasers in the
world are made. They're great for some projects, where wavelength precision is
crucial...but would make lousy weapons lasers.

There's no particular reason for small-arms lasers to be tunable anyway.

TL7-8 small-arms lasers are almost certainly single-frequency solid-state
lasers.

Oh, and tuning a dye laser doesn't necessarily require a dye change - over
+-100 nm ranges or so you can keep using the same dye

>2.  Gravitic Focusing
>        What a cop-out this was!  None of the other energy weapons, not
>particle accellerators, nor meson guns, have this option.  Why lasers?  In
>my game I've eliminated this ridiculous kludge; I recommend other do so as
>well.  You end up with much more interesting and much less unrealistic
>weapons.
These weapons will have effective ranges of much less than a BL hex, of course.
Effective traveler-canon space combat either needs gravitic focus, or
x-ray lasers, or multi-element synthetic aperture lasers (like a sensor
interferometer in reverse - lots of little lasers combining into one
big beam, with beam divergence set by the distance between the elements
but lousy efficiency because most of the power goes into sidelobes.)
Maybe they should have made x-ray lasers TL-9 instead...

Meson guns and particle accelerators don't need gravitic focus; meson gun
maximum range is limited by the meson lifetime, particle accelerators
by focusing rather than diffraction effects. Plasma/fusion weapons range
is limited by other problems.


> FFS has this one dead wrong.  The effectiveness of a laser is determined
>by its length, not its diameter
>        Select the length of the lasing assembly (LA).  The longer the
>Assembly, the tighter the beam can be focused

This is just wrong. If a laser is diffraction-limited its beam divergence
is a function only of aperture; length doesn't enter into it (not
directly, anyway; at low tech levels, where the focal array is a telescope,
the bigger the focal array diameter the longer the telescope has to be
unless you spend more money on shorter focal-length optics...but that's
rather complicated.) No matter how long you make a laser you'll never
get beam divergence better than lambda/D. Ever.

I should note that I haven't tried the formulas in the article out - maybe
they produce beams that are much worse than the lambda/D diffraction
limit.

Small-arms lasers might not be diffraction limited, of course; the
atmosphere will probably set the beam size for UV lasers without fancy
adaptive optics, and optics quality may set the beam size for longer-wavelength
lasers.

One thing I would say about FFS is that it's probably too conservative
on chemical lasers tech level; the fist operational weapons laser, the
proposed USAF ABL, is probably going to be a chemical laser, operational
at TL8.

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@igpp.llnl.gov/bmac@astro.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:55:57 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GET TRAVELLER TML96-633 (1/1)
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960325215557.006eb774@mail.usa.net>

Yup, I did get kicked off the list, but I'm back.

>Now, at the risk of inciting *yet another* flame war over this, here are my
>dot points:
>- it appears that only the atmosphere is a problem, not the gravity of a world
>  (an unstreamlined craft can apparently support itself against gravity);
>- under SL it talks about "atmospheric flight at reasonable speeds" and that
>  USL cannot be operated at high speed - but what about at much slower speeds?
>- BUT distance from orbit is not a vertical 300 km drop - can anyone tell me
>  how far the Shuttle travels from the point it re-enters to the point it
>  touches down? Is 5000 km a good guess?
>- If the thing "floats" down, it will presumably be subject to wind (as an
>  earlier poster stated) - distance travelled ("blown") should be comparable
>  to distance normally "flown";
>- If 5000 km is a good guess, then a USL ship, travelling at its "safe" speed
>  of 40 kph - oh, lets be generous and say it travels like a brick, sorry, Mac
>  truck, and does, oh, 100 kph;
>- At 100 kph, it takes 50 _hours_ to touch down (just over 2 days!);
>- At 40 kph (in comparision), it takes 125 _hours_ to land (5 days 5 hours!!);
>- This is not economically feasable, nor would many worlds allow their flight
>  paths to be regularly clogged for this long;

        This is way overstated, and any pilot who tried to do this should be
shot. The shuttle is a bad comparison.

        1. You don't have to start at 300km. The end of the "sensible"
atmosphere for Earth is considered to be somewhere around 120km.

        2. The shuttle does not drop vertically because it _cannot_. Why
should I follow the shuttle's flight path? It's an aerodynamic, unpowered
reentry vehicle, while I'm in a high-tech powered contragrav gizmo.

        A more realistic scenario would be:
        - Start out in a 100km orbit that crosses my destination (say, White
Sands, NM)
        - Fire my engine to kill almost all my orbital velocity above White
Sands.
        - Since I'm going to start dropping like a rock, I'll turn on my
Contra-Gravity.
        - Now I can control my speed using only my maneuvering thrusters.
        - At 100km/hr, I'll be on the ground in an hour. Add some extra time
to deal with winds, etc. at altitude (I need to match speeds more or less
with them). So 90 minutes to landing.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 09:38:50 +1000
From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: You know you've been playing too much Traveller when...
Message-ID: <9603252338.AA17450@helpdesk.jcu.edu.au>

hi,

>> 4). You go to a convention to run a Traveller game, and it takes a
>> hand truck to transport all your books

>Don't be silly! All you need are 2D6 and a few players!

Naturally, those that have memorised the complete set of little black
books can skip bringing them with them :-)


        Dr Pauli

Paul Dale                       | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
Computer Centre                 | +61 77 814 551
James Cook University           |
Australia, 4811                 | Did you know that there are 41 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 20:08:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Trav Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>,
Subject: Save Space: Above and Beyond.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960325200011.14613A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.  Sorry, but this isn't directly Traveller related.  However, as
fans of science fiction in general, I felt many of you might be
interested.  The decision to renew FOX's "Space: Above and Beyond" is
coming up in May, and rumors are that it may be in trouble.  I for one
like the show, and wish to support it in any way I can.  I suggest you all
do the same.  Even if you do not particularly like this series, it
behooves you to support the broadcast of science fiction shows in general.
The show is presently being killed, IMO, by constant pre-empting and
schedule changes.  Contact FOX and tell them that you like the show and
that you would like to see it given a time slot and left there
permanently.  Snailmail has more impact than email, but anything you can
do to show support is appreciated.

You can send mail to the cast and crew of Space: Above and Beyond", and
to the Fox
Programming Department, at

Fox Broadcasting Company - P OJBox 900 - Beverly Hills, CA 90213

To send mail to the cast and crew, address it with the individual's name,
c/o Space: Above and
Beyond, at the above address.

To send mail for the Save Space: Above and Beyond campaign, address the
letter to John Matoian,
President of FBC, at the above address.

You can send email to Fox Broadcasting Company via
space-feedback@foxnetwork.com.

Fanmail to the cast and crew may be sent from the website at
http://www.planetx.com/space:aab/fanmail, maintained by Pat 'wu' Moss.

There is more info on this show and the campaign to save it at
http://www.armory.com/~zylyn/SAABers.html

Sorry for the digression,
Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca),   <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.    <0>
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.    <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html  <0>


------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 25 Mar 96 20:59:48 EST
From: "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
To: TML <Traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Scharorst Class Heavy Cruiser
Message-ID:   <960325.220916.EST.34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

another Fine NELSON star yards product:

>From Janes fighting starships 1102:

SCHARORST CLASS HEAVY CRUISER  (Solomani Navy)

  The "Big Gun" doctrine of captial ship design has Influenced a number of ship
s design, The Scharhorst is one of those ships.  The Scharhorst class was  desi
gned around her 1000000mj PAW spinal mount.  Ever other feature in the ship was
 given secondary Importantance.  Sensors, Fuel, Secondary armament, wher all sq
ueezed around the main gun.
    The Scharhorst has a light secondary armament of 20 laser turrets and 4 10t
on missle bays.  The Scharhorst has a fair defensive armament of a heavy mason
screen, and 50 sandcaser turrets.  A flag bridge sereves as a command center fo
r 8 other war ships.
    Critics of the Scharhorst design have pointed out a number of weaknesses.
frist the Scharhorsts low Jump capacity, (j-3).  Furthermore the Scharhost is p
ractial dependent out outside fuel sources.  The Fuel purificaiton Plant can
not refine fuel fast enought for the Scharhorst to keep up with an advancing
fleet.  Lastly, the Scharhorst must depend upon close escorts to screen out
enemy fighters and missiles, doto the Scharhorst light secondary armament.  Man
y navy officer respence the Scharhorst for it combat abilities.  As one officer
 put it, "Sure it slow but that monstrous Paw will gut you from Stem to stern."

SCHARORST CLASS HEAVY CRUISER
GENERAL DATA
DISPLACEMENT: 50000tons               Hull Armor: 280
Length: 448m                          Volume:700000
Price: 102,999.9mcr                   target size: L
Configuration: Open frame USL         Tech Level: 14
mass: (Loaded/Unloaded): 834598/804970

ENGINEERING DATA
PowerPlant: TL-14 156450mw Fusion PowerPlant (125.3mw/hit), 1 mounth duration
Jump Performance: 3 (140000m for maxium jump)
G-rating: 5-g (25000mw per G-turn)
G-turns: 50G-turns, 100g-turns using jump fuel (3125m each)
Fuel purificaiton Plant: TL-14, fuel purification Plant 33600m/ 6hours 158mw
                         (Fuel loaded of fuel in 53.1 hours)
Fuel Tanks: 297554m of fuel (21253tons)
main:30067
ELECTRONICS
Computer: 6x mod FB computers (1mw each)
commo: 6x masers, (**,.6mw each)
       2x Radio (10hex, 10mw each)
Sensors: 2x 240000km folding EMS array (8hex, .3mw each)
         2x 180000km fixed Ems array (6hex, .2mw each)
         4x Active EMS array (16hex, 25mw each)
         4x 3000000km ladar (10hex, 10mw each)
ecm/eccm: 10hex EMS area Jammer, (10hex, 108mw), EMM package (700mw)
Controls: bridge with 300 bridge workstations, Axuiliary bridge with 300 noraml
 workstations, Flag bridge with 9 bridge workstaions, 1303 other workstations.
ARMENT
Offensive: 1 TL-14 1,000,000mj PAW (loc: spine, arcs:1 mw:27777.78mw crew:3)
           4x 10ton missile bays (locs: 13,13,14,14,; 1mw each)
           20x TL-14 150mj laser turrets (locs: 10 at 13, 10 at 14; arcs: all;
           42mw each {-2diff mods} crew:none* fired from MFD
Defensive: 50x TL-14 sandcaster turrets (25 at loc:13, 25 at loc:14,1 crew each
           1mw each, 2d6x6 per hit 40 cans each; archs: all)
           400mw Mason screen (PV=350) crew: 15
Master Fire Directors: 20x TL-14 beam-missile MFD ( 5 diff mods, mls, 10 hex;
                       1.77mw each, 1 crew each)

1,000,000mw PAW   10: 5000      20: 5000    40: 5000   80: 2500
150mj laser:      2: (1/10)31   4: (1/10)31  8:(1/10)31  16:(1/10)31
ACCOMMODATIONS:
Life support: extended (87.75mw); gravitic compensators (5g, 2183.75mw);
               Note: no life support for fuel tanks
Crew: 2465 (4x maneuvering, 8x electronics, 350x maintenance, 14x flight crew,
588x command, 83x stewares, 16x medical, 9x fleet command, 1303 engineering)
Crew accommodations: 5x Large staterooms, (single occupancy, .001mw each)
                     5x large staterooms, (bounlr occupancy, .001mw each)
                     290 small staterooms (double occupnacy, .0005mw each)
                     300 small staterooms (double occupancy), .0005mw each)
Passenger accommodations: none
Other facilities: 5x sickbays (.8mw each), 2x machine ship (1mw) 2x electronics
                  shops (.6mw each)
Cargo: 74m of cargo, pluse 50 missiles in storage, with 5 large cargo hatches
small craft and launch facilities: 1x 1000ton fuel shuttle in docking tube, 4x
                10ton launches, 4x 50ton launches
airlocks: 500

System hit capcity:  PAW: 404H; MISSILEBAY: 1H; LT: 1H; MS: 60H; MD: 124H;
JD: 700H; PP: 168H; FFP: 168H; PEMS: 1H; PEMSA: 1H; EEM: 70H; EMMR: 700h; EMSJA
MMER: 1H; MFD 1H; SICKBAY: 1H; AG: 87H; SSR: 2h; LSR: 1H; LS: 774H; ELS: 387H;
ALL OTHER SYSTEMS 1h each.

Area       Surface hits            Internal explosion
1-2         ant                  1-9 Paw, 10-17 electrons, 18-20 quater
3-4         1-14 ant             1-9 paw, 10-13 electons, 14-20 quater
5-8         ant                  1-10 paw, 11 quater, 12-20 hold
9-10                             1-10 Paw  11-20 hold
11-12                             1-8 Paw, 9-20 hold
13-14                            1-8 Paw, 9-20 hold
15                              1-10 Paw, 11-15 Eng, 16-20 hold
16-20    1-19 EMMR              1-10 paw, 11-20 eng

David Nelson
             "It's O.K. were staff"

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 638
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 639

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Crossovers
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com>
  2) Fighters
	by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
  3) BLACK CURTAIN
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  4) Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
	by fibbert@golden.net
  5) Imperium Games Where?
	by FKiesche3@aol.com
  6) RE: Imperium Games Where? 
	by That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
  7) Black Curtain
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  8) PAWs
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  9) Re: TRAVELLER digest 638
	by Paragon369@aol.com
 10) TRAVELLER digest 635
	by peterb@superlink.net (pet@execnet.com (PETERB@SUPERLINK.NET (PET)))
 11) TRAVELLER digest 635
	by peterb@superlink.net (pet@execnet.com (PETERB@SUPERLINK.NET (PET)))
 12) FF&S Spreadsheet
	by "Andrew Wardell" <wardell@m1.sprynet.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 96 14:01:54 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Crossovers
Message-ID: <960326190153_100326.446_JHF54-2@CompuServe.COM>


>> There could also be a meeting between the aforementioned Cpt. Kirk, Luke
Skywalker, Han Solo and anyone else for that matter. In fact, there could be a
resturant-and-the-end-of-the-universe thing where different universes meet and
people from ST, SW, Alien, Red Dwarf etc. <<

I've actually run (and played in) Traveller games with guest appearances by
Aliens (tm) and James T Kirk (sortof). I have a writeup for the Aliens if
anyone's interested? Oh, and I threw the Borg at my party when they started
getting too powerful. Nasty, ain't I?

HWF


------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:32:03 MDT
From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Fighters
Message-ID: <1549B593D2D@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>

I'd like opinions on putting hardpoints(normally for aircraft), on 
starships.  Is there any reason that this shouldn't be possible?
"That's very comforting, 
but I'm afraid you'll just
have to wait." -Wesley
walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:30:27 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: BLACK CURTAIN
Message-ID: <199603261930.NAA20359@osh1.datasync.com>

Phoenix,

After the release of Virus in 1130 and in decade(?) that followed, There
seemed to be a greater concentration of Virus in and around the Core Sector.
Since the Collapse the so called "Free Trader Network" has delivered only
two pieces of information about this area known as the Black Curtain:  No
one knows what it contains, and no one that has ever entered there has
returned to tell about it.

The Black Curtain (along with the Empress Wave) was one of the key unknowns
about the TNE mileau.  My guess is that GDW was going to develop the Black
Curtain through adventures and manuals that were to be released in the
future.  Now, we may never know.

I think most speculation here on the mailing list has boiled down the Black
Curtain being to a Virus run interstellar society.  Similar to the Unity of
Promise on a Stellar scale.  My opinion is that this Black Curtain Society
is one of the major influences in reuniting the Regency and the RC on a
friendly scale.  In my estimation of the future:

  1202 - RC and REGENCY initiate major expansion programs.  (Known from POT &
                                                             Regency Sourcebook)
  1204 - RC allows Virus citizens.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
  1206 - RC & REGENCY meet.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
??1206 - RC & REGENCY begin War.  (My Guess)
??1207 - RC & REGENCY have first contact with Black Curtain Society
Exploration                 Vessels.  (My Guess)
??1208 - RC & REGENCY & Black Curtain Society wage three way war.  (My Guess)
??1209 - War Ravaged RC & REGENCY join forces to defeat Black Curtain
Society.                                  (My Guess)
??1211 - War ends.  Temporary and fragile truce signed between RC & Regency.
                                (My Guess)


My guess for the future also includes a resolution for the Empress wave and
recontact with the Solomani, Aslan, Vargr, etc.  I'm working up the full
extension of the timeline.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 14:29:08 +0000
From: fibbert@golden.net
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Terran Federation - How Large a Pop?
Message-ID: <199603261928.OAA14946@golden.net>

I just have to dispute a few of the comments and assuptions made 
here, and add my own two cents.

> > >Well, remember I proposed that the only way the Terran Federation could have
> > >beaten the Vilani - who had much greater population and production resources
> > >was to outproduce them? Well, just how many people did the Terran Federation
> > >*have*?

Remember that the Imperium was very old and very stagnent.  Read 
Foundation if you haven't recently (I just finished it "again").  The 
Vilani empire had stopped advancing in technology and creativity some 
time ago.  How long were they stuck at TL 10?

It might have only required a push to knock them down.  How many 
high quality technicians did they have?  Were they able to properly 
repair the equipment they did have?  Were they able to produce new 
designs and integrate new technology quickly?  I think the assumption 
is NO!

Also, population is not neccessarily a measure of productivity.
Consider how Japan completely dominated high tech industry in only
40 years after being practically blasted back to the turn of the
century.   Also consider how the USSR - although certainly the same 
or nearly the same tech level as the US would never have been able to 
produce the same volume of high tech equipment as the Americans 
could.

> > >At present we have, what, 6 billion people? And the rate of population increa
> > >se is evidently slowing -- certainly in all developed countries.

This is mostly because smaller families are more ECONOMICALLY viable. 
 In a world with rising costs and inflation it makes more sense to 
have less children.

> > >Wait a minute! This is only three hundred years away! How many people are the
> > >likely to be in the colonies in 300 years? How many colonies? Given that the
 
There could be dozens of colonies in just the first decade.  Small - 
1000 or 10,000 people on a world.  But consider how quickly the US 
grew from a colony to a dominant world power.

> In other words, the nations with the money and political clout to
> be involved in any colonisation deal are those that have a
> declining population. 

(remember that the developing nations will have finished developing
by 2089.  The West won't be alone any more). 

But the colonies will provide several important things which MUST be
exploited by Earth especially in wartime, and a large population on
the colonies will be needed to produce them.  It's alot cheaper to
make babies than to ship out colonists. There will be a cultural and
economic pressure for those on the colonies to reproduce in droves.

1)  Minerals and materials.  Earth is near to exausting its supply 
of some critical raw materials.  There is no doubt that minerals in 
the rest of the solar system will someday have to be exploited.  
This will be especially true during Wartime.

2)  Industry.  Earth's industry will be turned to war - and colonies 
with mineral supplies will probably have factories built on them.  No 
point shipping iron to Earth if the colony can build the ships 
themselves.  Infact I imagine that in wartime, Earth will build alot 
of colonial shipyards - and take over alot of Vilani shipyards too.

This could help explain how the lowly colonies managed to overwhelm 
mother Earth in the end.

Actually,  by simply cutting off the supply of goods and materials to 
Earth the colonies could completely cripple her economy.  I imagine 
Earth will become very dependant on her colonies.  She will end up 
like the UK is today, a proud but feeble reflection of her former 
power.  Remember - England was the capital of the most powerful 
trading empire in the world.  Her fleets practically controlled the 
world's oceans at her height.  Within 200 years of her height - her 
colonies had surpassed anything she ever accomplished, and her fleet 
(though still strong) is only about the 4th or 5th largest in the 
world now.

>Even
> assuming that the colonists want larger families than the average, then there
> is no reason at all to assume that the women will want to be "barefoot,
> pregnant, and in the kitchen" ... which limits their family sizes. All in all,
> you do not have a convincing case ... the figures are correct, but you provide
> no underlaying basis to support them.

But the women won't have any careers to go to.  They will work on the 
homestead beside their husband / partner - and naturally reproduce.  
There will be more economic incentive to have large families than to 
have small.  That is the driving force at work here - economics.  
Once the colony achieves a certain size - say 50 to 100 million -  then 
there will be a slowing of the population growth, especially in the 
cities.

-Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:26:51 -0500
From: FKiesche3@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Imperium Games Where?
Message-ID: <960326162650_256562953@emout04.mail.aol.com>

Greetings All:

Does anybody know if Imperium Games is going to be appearing at any game
conventions during 1996? Which ones/where? And when does product start
springing from their presses?

Cowabunga.

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:02:08 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Imperium Games Where? 
Message-ID: <199603262302.SAA03996@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16: 28:42 EST
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:02:08 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Greetings All:
: 
: Does anybody know if Imperium Games is going to be appearing at any game
: conventions during 1996? Which ones/where? And when does product start
: springing from their presses?

Actually, I heard that they were at the GAMA show two weeks ago and
that actually had mock-ups of some Traveller stuff.  From what I was
told, it was very rough, but did lend to credibility of an August 1996
release date for the new version of the game.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:23:38 -0800 (PST)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Black Curtain
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9603261551.B16349-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>


>Also, while I'm at it, will somebody PLEASE tell
>me what the Black Curtain is?  Thanks!

	No one knows.  It is almost certainly virus related and may have 
something to do with the "Vampire Highway" that runs near RC space, but 
anyone who has gone to check it out has not come back.  My own theory is 
that it is a machine civilization which has lost its over-riding 
fascination with killing people and is now focused on organizing itself.  
Not to say that its not hostile, but the Virus there is busy doing other 
things at the moment.  It may be that it will emerge at some point to 
conquer the rest of known space, but for right now its just sitting tight.
	If I ever were to detail what lay behind the Black Curtain I'd 
use Gregory Benford's "Galactic Core" series as my model.

--Muir

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:46:46 -0800 (PST)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: PAWs
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9603261513.D16349-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>



bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:
>Meson guns and particle accelerators don't need gravitic focus; meson gun
>maximum range is limited by the meson lifetime, particle accelerators
>by focusing rather than diffraction effects. Plasma/fusion weapons range
>is limited by other problems.
>
>> FFS has this one dead wrong.  The effectiveness of a laser is determined
>>by its length, not its diameter
> >      Select the length of the lasing assembly (LA).  The longer the
>>Assembly, the tighter the beam can be focused
>
>This is just wrong. If a laser is diffraction-limited its beam divergence
>is a function only of aperture; length doesn't enter into it (not
>directly, anyway; at low tech levels, where the focal array is a telescope,
>the bigger the focal array diameter the longer the telescope has to be
>unless you spend more money on shorter focal-length optics...but that's
>rather complicated.) No matter how long you make a laser you'll never
>get beam divergence better than lambda/D. Ever.

	This exchange, coupled with the heavy cruiser design with the 
giant PAW posted to the same digest brought up a question I've been 
wondering about for a while:  

	**Why is it possible to make PAWs that have vastly longer
	  effective ranges than non-grav-focused lasers? 

	From what I've heard about proposals to use lasers or PAs to push 
interstellar spacecraft, the lasers can focus to longer ranges but 
deliver less energy.  In FF&S this is flipped around.  A PAW with a given 
diameter can hit a target much further out than a non-grav laser, until 
the introduction of x-ray lasers.  I suppose that since divergence in 
lasers is a fcn of lambda and the particles in PAs don't have a lambda, 
(that I know of) they're not subject to the same limits, but then I'm 
just guessing.  Could someone with a better background than mine fill me in?
	Reply to the beta-list if you wish, or to me personally.  Thanks.

--Muir
	

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:14:16 -0500
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 638
Message-ID: <960326191415_362754939@emout04.mail.aol.com>

I've noticed a movement lately of a number of people 'selling off' or
'auctioning off' all of their Traveller material.  What's up folks?  Just
because GDW is gone, that doesn't me Traveller is!  Marc and his team of
'imagineers' are breathing new life into our old friend and companion!  Have
faith folks... Traveller is going to end up surprising and pleasing all of
us... it HAS to.... just because the original talent that created it in the
first place is at work again... and this time augmented by a team of experts
with impressive backgrounds in just that kind of creative thought!

I for one am NOT selling ANY of my Traveller gear!  I may be wrong.. I doubt
it... but I trust Marc... he hasn't let us down yet when he personally took a
had in Traveller...  let keep the excitement of the game alive... with the
remnents of it's past incarnations.... until the FUTURE of Traveller is
born....

(And NO, I DON'T work for Far Future OR Marc Miller... I'm just a loyal fan
of a game system that's been literally in the Far Future longer than our
calendars will ever be....)

Russ
          ( Paragon369@aol.com )



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 19:06:00 -0500
From: peterb@superlink.net (pet@execnet.com (PETERB@SUPERLINK.NET (PET)))
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 635
Message-ID: <8BD747A.010006FEAB.uuout@execnet.com>

(continued)
>automatically took the USP of the world and transformed it into a paragraph
>in plain English.  Is this stating the obvious?  Just making sure.
Yes. This was the reason I embarked upon this project in the first place. UPPs
seemed so cold, and also difficult to use unless you had memorised all the world
creation tables.
For those who need a status report at present, I have just finished redesigning
the data structures ( to cope with the large number of ideas furnished by TML
readers ) and have begun redesigning the interface to cope with this. Those who
were hoping for a display of the inner system of a hex will be disapointed to
learn that this proved to be to difficult to achieve at this point, primarily
because I couldn't come up with an acceptable data structure to house the
information required to draw it. I did try ( pouring through the Scouts book ),
but found the task too complex to attempt at present. 
If someone else (with lots of experience in designing solar systems ) is
interested in putting together a data structure which works for ALL cases, then
I'd love to hear from them. This data structure should be as normalised as is
practical for relational use ( and if you don't understand what I mean by this,
then you don't have the knowledge to do the job - sorry ).
Failing this, perhaps one of the chaps writing sector generators may have an
idea or two about this.
Otherwise, I'll revisit the topic when the initial version is stable, and
everyone is happy with it.
Simon J Mahony ( simonm@ramhb.co.nz )
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:43:30 -0500
Message-ID: <199603231543.KAA16010@mars.superlink.net>
        Sorry for the blatant waste of bandwidth, but I haven't seen any
mail from this list in a while... Is the list up or down? or is it my ISP?
       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]   
  _] "Those who fail to learn from history                          _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_] 
------------------------------
End of TRAVELLER Digest 635
***************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 19:06:00 -0500
From: peterb@superlink.net (pet@execnet.com (PETERB@SUPERLINK.NET (PET)))
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 635
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 635
Topics covered in this issue include:
  1) Baldur summary
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  2) My Take on RC papers
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  3) Re: Sleeping in Low Berths.
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  4) RC Worlds
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 634
	by "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
  6) Re: Assorted Replies
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  7) Re:  TRAVELLER digest 634
	by "Kelly St.Clair" <kstclair@PEAK.ORG>
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 634
	by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  9) Is this thing on?
	by peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 15:08:09 -0500
Message-ID: <9603222008.AA10303@chara.gsu.edu> 
Eamon sent this to me and asked me to forward it to the TML.
------- Forwarded Message
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          Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:40:16 +0000
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:40:23 +0000
Message-Id: <0099FBAF.E02FADC0.6@v2.qub.ac.uk>
Lewis,
	Here's my Baldur summary:  
Baldur's government, though classed as a Feudal Technocracy, could be better
classed as just a Technocracy.
The Council of Science runs all of Baldur's resources vital to Baldur's
development. A democratically elected assembly runs non-essential aspects
of planetary life, such as Tourism (;-) , Law Enforcement, etc. The assembly
can also raise points to be discussed by the Council of Science.
Many of L'Steich's Corporations survive in some form on Baldur. The largest
is the Hellenic Trade and Transport Corporation, which controls a large
slice of Baldur's merchant fleet. Ships include 2x 20,000 ton colonizer vessels
some Tukera Freighters, Frontier Transports, Bulk Carriers, and many Liners,
Subsidized Merchants, and Far Traders. Many ships were rated for J-3 and J-2
as it is impossible to make the Journey from L'Steich to it's former colonies
of Bestor and Baldur in a J-1 vessel (unless you want to arrive with little
maneuvering juice).
Baldur has access to a large number of vessels due to the fact that both it
and L'Steich had time to prepare for the onset of the virus. Many on L'Steich
evacuated to it's lower tech colony world when it became obvious that L'Steich
couldn't survive. Many evacuation ships didn't arrive, many that did limped
into orbit, some could be brought up to operating standards and are used by
Baldur today. Those that couldn't sit in the Mothball fleet, just above
Geostationary orbit - most gutted by the Proctors for equipment to keep
Baldur alive through the collapse.
Their Starport is impressive. Though only C-Class, it had to handle the
colonists who arrived in droves from L'Steich every year, and service the
vessels they came on. Half-Starport, half-colony, it's accomodations were
huge, designed to accomodate 100,000 people, and originally built at TL-9, it
was sufficiently primitive enough to survive the collapse.
RC politics. Though Centrist, and a close ally of Oriflamme, the Baldur govt is
becoming increasingly estranged from Oriflamme. They suspect their Technarchs
are bypassing the Auction, and denying them the equipment their planet needs to
survive and prosper. They are also angry at the way Oriflamme is treating their
Colony on Poyzen as a dumping ground for Oriflammen malcontents. Deep down they
despise the Technarchs, the Council of Science runs Baldur in order to
survive -
unlike their Oriflammen counterparts who enrich themselves at their planet's
expense.
If the Council can get evidence of Oriflamme breaching the Auction, they intend
to use it as a lever to get Oriflamme to support the upgrading of their
starport to B-class, as they fear a loss in Auction trade when Oriflamme's port
reaches A-class and Nike Nimbus's port reaches B-class.
They hope their colony on Poyzen will be sucessful, and that trade down through
L'Steich to Poyzen will eventually make it economic to re-develop their
homeworld, which they consider Bladur territory, along with Bestor.  
Here's Tiger's comments:
>Overall, I like it.  I was wondering about the ships the Baldur has.  Where
>did they come from and how long have they been in service.  There wans't
>much travel between the stars after Virus hit (D&D Corp had only two or
>three ships, and they were only available for part of the 70 "dead" years).
>I am assuming that they were either stranded at L'Steich after Virus hit and
>recently recovered, or they were stranded in orbit around Baldur and parts
>weren't available for their repair until recontact occurred.
Most of the ships came from L'Steich when it became obvious that would couldn't
survive. Most were incapacitated in one way or another, many were raided
during the past 70 year for parts to keep Baldur running.  
Let us know what you think, I'll try and get most of the rest of my Baldur
stuff into a computer soon.
All the best,
	Eamon.
------- End of Forwarded Message 
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 15:09:06 -0500
Message-ID: <9603222009.AA10312@chara.gsu.edu>
Eamon sent this to me and asked me to forward it to the TML.
------- Forwarded Message
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:32:41 +0000
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Hi Lewis,
	phew! You've been busy! I've got about 20 pages done on Baldur, but
still lots to type into the computer. I sent tiger a summary of my work on
Baldur - I'll mail that after these thoughts on your RC list. 
Looks good, here's the worlds I've comments on. 
>Aubaine A78A884-C
>          Size: Large : D=11,000km              Atmosphere: Dense
>          Hydrographics:100%                    Population:150 million Humans
>                                                           650 milion Schalli
>          Government: Civil Service Bureaucracy Law Level:Moderate
>          Tech Level: 12 (Avg Stellar)          Star port: Excellent

Good, but references in "The Death of Wisdom" suggest that Aubaine also has
some form of Constitutional Monarchy (Nobles still active).  
>Baldur CAAA756-9
>          Size: Large : D=16,000km              Atmosphere: Exotic
>          Hydrographics:100%                    Population: 30 million
>          Government:Feudal Technocracy         Law Level: Moderate
>          Tech Level: 9 (circa 2010)            Star port: Routine
>        Baldur is a deathworld, its atmosphere is poisonous to most life, it
>is covered with seas of acid, and high gravity pulls at everything. 
>It is only through human ingeniuity that life is sustained. The Baduri
>lived in vast underwater cities, on man made islands, and above it all in
>orbital habitats.  The Collapse threatend all of these. The Virus crashed
>the orbital habitats into the sea, threatened to open the airlocks on the
>subsurface cities, and tried to capsize the floating islands.  It was only
>through relentless effort, and great technical skill, that all life on the
>planet was saved from destruction. The Balduri know that life hangs by a
>thread, and the only thing between the RC and screaming chaos is the will
>to survive.
My own take on Baldur is a bit different. Baldur is a primordial world, little
free oxygen in the atmosphere, and ash filled due to Volcanic activity. The
Sea I think can't be acid - I don't think TL-9 (Or even their original TL-11)
could produce buildings (esp. seals) that could cope. Baldur's sea in mine
has volcanic byproducts dissolved and in suspension in it, making it
'poisonous' H2O. Remember the Shalli help out there - I think H2SO4 or
whatever would be unfeasible for even TL-12 to deal with economically.
My summary on Baldur will follow.  
>Enkidu E510415-9
>          Size: Medium : D=8000                 Atmosphere: Trace
>          Hydrographics: None                   Population: 50 thousand
>          Government: Corporate                 Law Level: Moderate
>          Tech Level: 9 (circa 2010)            Star port: Frontier
>        Before the Collapse Enkidu was named Dono.  It was owned by a council
>of five corporations.  These weren't megacorporations, just small planetary
>companies.  They were Westlake Industries, Mogon Technologies, Cynder Data
>Systems, United Power Systems, and Blenkindo Enterprises.  Each corporation
>had its own territory, and used it to produce products for export throughout 
I had Enkidu's corporations being from L'Steich, the Planet that colonized
Baldur. It seemed to be a bit of a power in the Pre-Collapse Imperium, so I
assumed that the Baldur-Meadsk main was heavily influenced by them.  
>Eos   C674656-B
>          Size: Large : D=9600                  Atmosphere:Standard Tainted
>          Hydrographics: 50%                    Population: 5 million
>          Government: Feudal Technocracy        Law Level:Moderate
>          Tech Level:B (Avg Stellar)            Star port:Routine
>HELP, I drew a total blank. I am sure someone out there can come up
>with a good idea.

I'll give it a try - can't promise anything. 
       
>Kruyter B000312-B
Good. I submitted to the list a while back that after the virus attack on
Nike Nimbus Kruytercorp might start specializing in SDB's - maybe transported
to their buyers by Transtar's Dawn Clippers? 
 
>Ra E68659A-6

Ra was another of the L'Steich influenced worlds in my take. Many refugees from
L'Steich fled to Baldur, some got as far as Ra.  
>Spencer   D89A568-7
Durn Teldorans!  
>Spires  E894789-2
I wonder if there are many Psions on Spires?  
Be seeing you,
	Eamon.
------- End of Forwarded Message 
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:23:19 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960322151721.28585C-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Hi All.
Someone in the last digest asked if sleeping in a low berth would leave
you rested when you woke up.  I would say the answer was a definate no.
According to CT/MT rules, low berths are actually quite taxing on the
system and require a survival roll when one wakes up in one (so you
wouldn't last long sleeping in one on a regular basis).  Also, if one
assumes that a low berth halts all physiological activity, then you would
be halting a number of physiological processes (metabolization of fatigue
poisons, REM sleep, etc.) necessary for a good night's rest.  The "Micheal
Jackson" technique would not work, IMHO. 
Happy Travellin',
Charles.
<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0>
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0> 
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 16:29:48 -0500
Message-ID: <9603222129.AA10494@chara.gsu.edu>
Eamon said in response to the BARD paper on RC Worlds:
>Aubaine A78A884-C 
> ...
>Good, but references in "The Death of Wisdom" suggest that Aubaine also has
>some form of Constitutional Monarchy (Nobles still active).
I never got the novels, I was waiting until the entire trilogy came
out. Can someone who has them, write up a paragraph on the government,
or just tell me what the relevant passeges are.
Is there any other infomation in the books that would be useful? 
>Baldur CAAA756-9
>...
>My own take on Baldur is a bit different.
That great, I knew you were writing up Baldur, so I didn't invest much time in it.
In Eamon's Baldur Summary:
>Though Centrist, and a close ally of Oriflamme, the Baldur govt is
>becoming increasingly estranged from Oriflamme.They suspect their Technarchs
>are bypassing the Auction, and denying them the equipment their planet needs to
>survive and prosper. 
I always thought that was just a few renegade technarchs. Becuase if
they avoid the auction at Oriflamme, it cuts into the Oriflamme economy
also.  I was thinking of an adventure that had something to do with
this. If I ever flesh it out, I'll post it. 
>>Enkidu E510415-9
>I had Enkidu's corporations being from L'Steich, the Planet that colonized
>Baldur. It seemed to be a bit of a power in the Pre-Collapse Imperium, so I
>assumed that the Baldur-Meadsk main was heavily influenced by them.
I think we can incorporate that.  Hmmmm.  How about the corporations
were founded by L'Steich  residents. The corporations' major market was
L'Steich and the associated worlds such as Baldur.  How about instead
of fleeing to Nike Nimbus they fled to Ra, POT says Ra is populated with refugees. 
>>Ra E68659A-6
>Ra was another of the L'Steich influenced worlds in my take. Many refugees from
>L'Steich fled to Baldur, some got as far as Ra.
That works too. I think Ra should have several groups of Refugees, it
seems very cosmopoliton. A bunch from L'Steich and more from Enkidu and
probably some from
a few worlds that are still dead. Maybe from Thoenzant subsector, just
over the border.
Also I think I'll change the name of the family that lived on Ra,
Striench its too close to L'Steich.  I'll figure it out later. 
>>Kruyter B000312-B
>Good. I submitted to the list a while back that after the virus attack on
>Nike Nimbus Kruytercorp might start specializing in SDB's - maybe transported
>to their buyers by Transtar's Dawn Clippers?
Steve Bonneville did an estimate of the capacity of various A & B
shipyards in the RC, it got posted to the TML a while ago:
>Shipbuilding and overhaul capacity:
>  Aubaine         960,000                   tech-12 class-A
>  Oriflamme     1,120,000                   tech-9  class-B
>  Aurora            8,400 (O:RCN)           tech-11 class-B
>  Trybec            8,400 (O:RCES)          tech-10 class-B
>  Kruyter               4 (O:Kruytercorp)   tech-11 class-B
That's in tons, so Kruyter doesn't have much shipbuilding capacity.  I
think the capacity is based on population, and Kruyter doesn't have
much of a population.  But it is heavily funded by outside sources, so
it probably has some repair facilities, but no building capacities.    
>Spires  E894789-2
I wonder if there are many Psions on Spires?
Probably.
The world that would have lots of of Psions, is Lucifer, with all those
crackpot mystics, wierd cults and other strangness, Psions fit right in. 
Lewis
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:35:08 +0000
Message-ID: <199603222210.QAA23245@cube.ice.net>
You know you've been playing too much Traveller when, 
1). You can do High Guard Ship design calculations off the top of
      your head.
2). You can name all the Classic books off the top of your head
3). You can do book 3 planetary generation off the top of your head
4). You go to a convention to run a Traveller game, and it takes a
hand truck to transport all your books
==========================================================
Shadowcat[AKA Kevin Walsh] kwalsh@ice.net
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh
"There is a fine line between sanity and Insanity,
 I dance that line"
Wargamer, Filker, SCA Herald, genneral loony   
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:53:46 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <9603222253.AA19417@Rt66.com>

> 4.	GG REFUELLING VULNERABILITY
>
> Merrick asked for some rationale as to why GG refuelling leaves your ship at
> risk.
>
> "Refuelling operations for a task force are another danger point, as forces
> which are low on fuel and maneuvering in a gravity well are especially
> vulnerable". (_High Guard_, p 19)
>
> And yes, these would be house rules if added to the other flavours of space
> combat rules.
[some snipped]

> BTW, an SDB may not be able to hurt a CruRon or BatRon - but if it is sitting
> in a GG, its real targets are the fuel tankers, no? Look at the Azhanti High
> Lightning's fuel shuttles: only 40G armour, 2G, no agility, DefDM +9 (MT stats
> from_Arrival Vengance_). Knock out a few of these, and suddenly an
> unstreamlined strike force is in trouble.
Yeah, but the AHL isn't a good model since it's not a good ship :-)
Take some TCS designed squadrons on.  Or just think---if only tankers
are vulnerable, and they get killed easily, there will be no tankers. 
-Merrick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:33:10 -0800
Message-ID: <199603222333.PAA23831@PEAK.ORG>
>And you know you've been reading TML too long when:
>
>12)     You have priced tickets to Germany, and researched German laws on
>        assault, after reading some of Hans Rancke's posts....
Make that Australia, and Phil "The Truth Is (Way) Out there" McGregor... 
------------------------
Kelly St.Clair
kstclair@kira.peak.org
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 01:27 NZST
Message-ID: <m0u0TLj-0002lPC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>
Re : David C. Broussard
>A US or Russian boomer might be the best example of what a traveller startship
>is like....besides even on a nuke, there is a fairly large common area (the
>Russian Typhoon class even has a swimming pool in it!)
Yes, true; but if my memory of documentaries about Typhoon class boomers is
correct, we're talking about a pool the size of a spa pool ( but twice as deep
). You could probably fit six to eight good friends in it ( standing up ). I
mention this because the phrase "swimming pool" conjours up visions of a 50
metre olympic size pool with full landscaped surrounds, and deck chairs
scattered around, and ( if memory serves ) I believe the Typhoons pool is housed
in what might be described as a small steel bathroom. :-) 
Re: Armand Suarez
>>
>Simon, are you still following this?
Definitely.
>Sorry, but I forgot to mention one other simple thing I think you should
>include in your sector data reader.  I think it would be very helpful if it
(continued)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:15:56 +0000
From: "Andrew Wardell" <wardell@m1.sprynet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: FF&S Spreadsheet
Message-ID: <199603270115.RAA07005@m1.sprynet.com>

I've been putting together a spreadsheet to Design Starships using 
Fire, Fusion & Steel, and have run into several snags in the weapon 
design section...

1.) The "1 hardpoint/100tons of ship" rule seems to be entirely 
missing.  Is this a change in canon, or did someone just miss the 
clue bus?

2.) While mention is made of "Standard" Turret sockets and their 
associated volumes, it is strongly implied that turrets can be *any* 
size.  Since turrets seem to no longer have any cost, there seems to 
be no reason to build to specific size.  Is this also a change in 
canon (from Brilliant Lances, at least), or once again an editing 
error?


<Yes, I know it's silly to bother with the spreadsheet when the 
entire system will be changing, but I don't care to wait 6 months+, 
assuming everything stays on schedule, for the latest set of rules>

I'd appreciate any help with these questions, and if/when I finish 
the spreadsheet, I'll slap it onto the Web for general perusal.


Andrew Wardell

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 639
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 640

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Imperial Tech Level at Year 0
	by Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
  2) Re: BC timline
	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  3) RE: FF&S Spreadsheet
	by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
  4) Re: TRAVELLER digest 639
	by Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
  5) RC/Regency Timeline
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
  6) End of GDW
	by "M.A.Trickett" <100520.2025@compuserve.com>
  7) Imperium games
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com>
  8) Re: [X571, T638] MicroJumps
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  9) Annihilation Class Close Escort
	by "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:17:06 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Imperial Tech Level at Year 0
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960327041706.006e7d30@mail.ultranet.com>

Just what was the limits of Imperial Technology at the start of the Third
Imperium?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
"He told us it was a crisis. He said, 'My presidency is on the line.
It's an emergency.' It's always that way with him. He's always saying,
'These are the last days.' "
 -- Georgia Rep. John Lewis on Clintons arm-twisting for votes
    (Newsweek, 8/29/94)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:36:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: BC timline
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960326213459.6113A-100000@linda.teleport.com>

--
  1204 - RC allows Virus citizens.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
  1206 - RC & REGENCY meet.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
??1206 - RC & REGENCY begin War.  (My Guess)
??1207 - RC & REGENCY have first contact with Black Curtain Society
Exploration                 Vessels.  (My Guess)
??1208 - RC & REGENCY & Black Curtain Society wage three way war.  (My Guess)
??1209 - War Ravaged RC & REGENCY join forces to defeat Black Curtain
Society.                                  (My Guess)
??1211 - War ends.  Temporary and fragile truce signed between RC & Regency.
                                (My Guess)
--
 Your suffering from the same problem as the regency, your rate of 
expansion is faster then physicialley possible(even for x-boats, almost).
 When one looks at Traveller interstellar commerce and diplomacy, one 
must think in terms of DECADES, and not months of years.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:30:41 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: FF&S Spreadsheet
Message-ID: <01BB1C13.5A8BFA60@ppp043.on.rim.or.jp>

>From: "Andrew Wardell" <wardell@m1.sprynet.com>
>Subject: FF&S Spreadsheet
>I've been putting together a spreadsheet to Design Starships using
>Fire, Fusion & Steel, and have run into several snags in the weapon
>design section...
>1.) The "1 hardpoint/100tons of ship" rule seems to be entirely
>missing.  Is this a change in canon, or did someone just miss the
>clue bus?

I actually wrote GDW a year or two ago with this same question.  The 
official answer was that the 1 hardpoint/100 tons limitation had been 
removed from the game.

I'm looking forward to using your spreadsheet!

Armand


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:38:35 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 639
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960327130654.585C-100000@trondviggo.nvg.unit.no>

Maight as well put it on top of the mail: _Read everything here with a 
big IMHO stamped on it. (Some irony wouldn't hurt either.)_

> From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: BLACK CURTAIN
> Message-ID: <199603261930.NAA20359@osh1.datasync.com>
> 
> Phoenix,
> I think most speculation here on the mailing list has boiled down the Black
> Curtain being to a Virus run interstellar society. 

Support that one. An idea which I liked a Traveller GM not on this list 
put forward was the key to the Black Curtain was a virus infected ancient 
artifact. (Watch the player's panic when they understand it. ;) )

> Similar to the Unity of
> Promise on a Stellar scale.  My opinion is that this Black Curtain Society
> is one of the major influences in reuniting the Regency and the RC on a
> friendly scale.  In my estimation of the future:
> 
>   1202 - RC and REGENCY initiate major expansion programs.  (Known from POT &
>                                                              Regency Sourcebook)

Now that is a "nice" coincidence. ("And it was in these days the Game 
Designer said: And re-discovery Campaigns shall be possible to play in 
The Regency." :) )

>   1204 - RC allows Virus citizens.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)

Personally I don't incorporate this one in my campaign. I think the 
collapse was too traumatic for a sufficient majority to accept virus 
citizens.

>   1206 - RC & REGENCY meet.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)

A bit fast, I think. Like everything in Traveller, so that isn't much of 
a problem. :)

> ??1206 - RC & REGENCY begin War.  (My Guess)

I think they would have a resource and distance problem. And besides, 
wouldn't it be natural if RC met the Virus society first? (If the source 
books don't fit in, skip them. :) ) What reason has Regency to expand? My 
impression is that the Regency is rather isolationistic.

> ??1207 - RC & REGENCY have first contact with Black Curtain Society
> Exploration                 Vessels.  (My Guess)
> ??1208 - RC & REGENCY & Black Curtain Society wage three way war.  (My Guess)
> ??1209 - War Ravaged RC & REGENCY join forces to defeat Black Curtain
> Society.                                  (My Guess)
> ??1211 - War ends.  Temporary and fragile truce signed between RC & Regency.
>                                 (My Guess)
> 
> 
> My guess for the future also includes a resolution for the Empress wave and
> recontact with the Solomani, Aslan, Vargr, etc.  I'm working up the full
> extension of the timeline.

I support the idea of linking the Vampire Highway to the Core, fits 
nicely with a Black Curtain Virus Society. Recontacting the major races 
could be interesting campaign material.

--
Steinar Knutsen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:51:18 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RC/Regency Timeline
Message-ID: <238D56448C8@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

Paul Walker guesses:

> 1202 - RC and REGENCY initiate major expansion programs.  (Known
>  from POT & Regency Sourcebook)
>  1204 - RC allows Virus citizens.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
>  1206 - RC & REGENCY meet.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
>??1206 - RC & REGENCY begin War.  (My Guess)
>??1207 - RC & REGENCY have first contact with Black Curtain Society
>Exploration Vessels.  (My Guess)
>??1208 - RC & REGENCY & Black Curtain Society wage three way war.  (My Guess) 
>??1209 - War Ravaged RC & REGENCY join forces to defeat Black Curtain 
>Society.    (My Guess)
>??1211 - War ends.  Temporary and fragile truce signed between RC & 
>Regency.  (My Guess)

	Ghod no!!! The foundations of both the RC and the Regency lie in
the horrific reality of the Rebellion, Hard Times and the
Collapse...there's no way they'll allow a repeat so quickly.
Relations may well be prickly, and occasional border clashes will
occur, but there is no way that a generalized war will break out,
the respective populations would never allow it.

	Secondly, the one absolutely sure thing that any schoolchild in 
either the Regency or the RC knows from history is that fighting 
three way wars are a certain route to disaster.  The Regency, at 
least, if they honor the legacy of Norris at all, will never lightly 
enter into another interstellar war with anything less than their 
very survival at stake. The RC simply can't afford one at all.

	The fragmentary quotes mentioned provide little basis for this timeline.  
Indeed, given the factious politics of both the Regency and the RC, 
all quotes could well be wrong, simply inflammatory rhetoric from the 
opposition.
 
	The RC and Regency need each other far more than they need to fight 
each other...there's an entire known universe to reclaim.  The RC has 
the experience with the Wilds that the Regency doesn't, and the 
Regency has the tech that the RC so desperately needs that it has to 
resort to Smash&Grab to get it.  I don't think for a moment that the leaders 
of either side are so stupid as to fight; they're all far too 
pragmatic for that.

	Virus as RC citizens? The Regency won't like it, and certainly will 
not allow them to enter the Regency, but that alone is not a reason 
for war.  Indeed, the Regency may well want to study them very 
closely, to ensure that the Regency is Virus-proofed by design rather 
than by Quarantine.

	As for the Black Curtain...the 'I am Lucan of Borg...prepare to be
assimilated' scenario has always been a favorite of mine.  In fact,
the 'Lucan is God' version of Virus on a general rimward course, as
described in the Vampire sourcebook, as well as the more advanced
Puppeteer strains, also coming from coreward do tend to support the
existence of a Virus dominated, if not exclusive, society.

	But the Regency and the RC need each other far too much on a
variety of levels...political, tactical, economic to ever go to a
generalized war, certainly not less than 100 years after the
rebellion and collapse. 

	Besides, dammit, the timlines are still way too compressed.  In
1202, the RC has barely moved outside it's borders, four or five
hexes at the most; by 1206 we're to believe that they've crossed
entire SECTORS??? Under the best of times, time of flight from one
side of the Imperium to the other was on the order of what...six
months, using j4 x-boats, jumping continuously? Three years for the
usual ship traffic?  It's insane to believe that there was such an
incredible expansion is so little time.

	The only way for there to be such contact would be long range 
scouting missions...remember almost nothing is known about the 
intervening space between the RC and the Regency.

	Of course, the contact with each other will cause the respective 
scouts to burn jets getting home to spread the news, but meaningful 
contact via expansion has got to take place on a wider front, over a 
much longer period of time.  This becomes a question like how, 
exactly, did the heavily outnumbered Terrans take over the Vilani 
empire...except here's there's no meaningful number of subjects to 
help.

	At most there's a handful of pocket empires in there, each 
requiring negotiations to bring into either the fold of the RC or 
the Regency, or to negotiate independent existence...remember...not 
many people outside of the Regency have much taste for any flavor of 
imperial domination again.

	The Regency also is going to be facing expansionist pressures from 
the Aslan, from displaced Zhodanis, etc., so there's going to be a 
wide front of expansion, which will slow things down considerably.  
By the time that the RC and the Regency meet on terms that involve 
that wide front, they're going to be very different entities,and it's 
gotta be more like 25-50 years in the future.  They could KNOW about 
each other by 1206, but no way they're going to fight a war by 1206.

	Teaming up to take on whatever threat is coming from the core is
another matter entirely...but even that will be more like two widely
separated wars that happen to be going on at the same time.  If the
forces from the Black Curtain are at all powerful, the Regency will
not be able to do much more than offer moral support to the RC, and
certainly the RC won't have the resources to do squat to or for the
Regency.  If it comes to war between the Black Curtain and the RC,
it's going to be strictly desperation actions by the RC and the
Hivers...they haven't got anywhere near the resources to take on
anything more than isolated squadrons of ships, much less capital
fleets.  

	Look at the timelines for the Yards at Aubaine,  they have a backlog 
of something like 10 ships, and by 1202 are the ONLY class A 
shipyard. The RC doesn't have the resources to build a war fleet at 
all. By 1206, however they're supposed to be fighting a war two 
sectors away??? Gimmie a break folks.






Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 96 13:40:06 EST
From: "M.A.Trickett" <100520.2025@compuserve.com>
To: Traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: End of GDW
Message-ID: <960327184006_100520.2025_JHB89-1@CompuServe.COM>

I just got the 2300AD *Colonial Atlas* and *Bayern* books, and the TNE *Regency
Sourcebook* through the post from GDW... the stuff that they were sending out
because they were closing down.  Sort of brings it to a horrible end.

Bye.

--MARK T


------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 96 14:28:13 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Imperium games
Message-ID: <960327192812_100326.446_JHF107-5@CompuServe.COM>


>> Does anybody know if Imperium Games is going to be appearing at any game
conventions during 1996? Which ones/where? And when does product start springing
from their presses?  <<

I hear UK GenCon in September, but I don't think it's cast in stone <eh?>.

>> I for one am NOT selling ANY of my Traveller gear!  I may be wrong.. I doubt
it... but I trust Marc... he hasn't let us down yet when he personally took a
had in Traveller...  let keep the excitement of the game alive... with the
remnents of it's past incarnations.... until the FUTURE of Traveller is
born....<<

Yay! Give that man a pat on the back! Traveller die-hards to the fore, down with
virus.... <oops, sorry, New Earers, didn't really say that, honest <chuckle>>.

HWF


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 15:19:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [X571, T638] MicroJumps
Message-ID: <8BD8397.01000700B8.uuout@execnet.com>


X::>At the risk of restarting this debate I have to ask.  Was there ever
 ::>a consensus of opinions on Micro-jumps?  I ask this because I
 ::>discovered that the fastest a scout in orbit 9 could get to the main
 ::>world in orbit 0 is about 70 days.  Therefore, even if the micro-jump
 ::>took 1 week, it would still be much faster than normal travel.
 ::>Opinions, anyone?  Also, while I'm at it, will somebody PLEASE tell
 ::>me what the Black Curtain is?  Thanks!

 MicroJumps are, as far as I can tell, canonical (there's that
 word, again) back to the Little Black Books, and were used for
 exactly the purpose in your example.  As I recall, in Classic
 Traveller, they took the same amount of fuel as a J1 for the ship
 in question; in MT, they took half that.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Only the hand that erases can write the true thing.



------------------------------

Date:         Wed, 27 Mar 96 18:42:23 EST
From: "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
To: TML <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Annihilation Class Close Escort
Message-ID:   <960327.190529.EST.34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>


Hi, Here's small warship to fill full of holes.

Janes fighting ship of the galaxy 1102

ANNIHILATION CLASS CLOSE ESCORT:

  In 1014 the Solomani navy begain its' Close escort high mobility program (CEH
M). The CEHM program called for a ship to be able to make at least 2 jump of at
 lest jump 4 without refueling and still have 40g of maneuvering left when comp
leting these jumps.  OF the six ship entered in the competion the eventual winn
er was the Annihilation Class close Escort.
         Filling the requirment of the CEHM project plus Mcgirk's Aero-space pr
omise to "Crank 'em out" was enoguth to win the competion.  For the next severa
l yars McGirk Aerospace, adn many othe companies cranked out large number of th
e Annihilation Class.  This high voluem porducation eneded when the Solomani na
vy took the Annihilaiton out of front-line servie and placed most of the into r
eserve fleets and secondary roles.
     The solomani navy regarede the Annihilatiuon as something of mixed blessin
g.  The Annihilation had an enormous amount of mobility and maneuver fuel, but
only average fire power.  This lack of fire power and sparse hull armor was a h
andycap for the Annihilation when fighting frist line imperaila forces.  Also d
uty on this ship was less then desirable.  The Annihilation is a tight design,
the crew quarters are cramed in under the engineering section, and only a long
thin tube connects the bridge to the rest of the ship.  Furthermore the Annilat
ion requires a large amount of maintenace, This ment long hours for the ships
crew.

GENERAL DATA
DISPLACEMENT: 400TONS            Hull armor: 40
length: 44m                      volume: 56000m
Prince: 6600.82mcr               target size: s
configuration: Cylinder, Sl      Tech Level: 13
mass (loaded/unloaded): 3759.8/3287.93
 ENGINEERING DATA
 Powerplant: 858mw fusion powerplant, 107.25mw per hit, 1 mounth duration
 Jump perfomrace: 4 (350m of fuel per parsec)
 G-rating: G-4, (200mw per G), counta-grav
 G-turns: 40g turns (96 using first 4 parsec jump, 152 using all the jump fuel)
           , 25m per G-turn
 Fuel Tanks: 3807.5m (271.9 tons)
 fuel Purification Plant: 1400m every 6 houres, 7mw
 maint: 491
ELECTRONICS
computer: 1x Tl-13 Fb computer (.9mw); 1x TL-13 st computer (.45mw)
Commo: 1x 1000AU maser (**,.6mw),1x 300,000km radio (10hex, 10mw)
Sensors: 180000km passive EMS folding array (6hex,.25mw)
         120000km passive Ems Fixed array (4hex, .15mw)
         240000km active EMS (8hex, .24mw)
         300000km Ladar, (10hex, 5.6mw)
ECM/ECCM: EMM masking package (5.6mw)
controls: bridge with 7 work stations, 8 normal workstaions.
ARMAMENT
OFFENSIVE:  4x TL-13 laser turrets, (loc: 5,5, arcs: 1,2,3; locs: 6,6, arcs: 2,
            3,4, 1.45mw each, 1 crew each)
Master fire direcot: 2x Tl-13 MDF (4 diffmod/ no missiles, 10hex, .71mw each,
                      one crew each)

106mj Laser turret 10:(1/8)26   20:(1/6)20  40:(1/3)10   80:(1/2)5

ACCOMODATIONS:
LIFE SUPPORT: extended (.36mw), gravtic compensators (4g, 9mw) (note: no life s
                          support for fuel tanks)
Crew: 21: (2x maneuver, 1x electronics, 8x engineering, 1x mainntenance,
            6x gunnery, 3x command)
Crew accomoations: 1 small stateroom (small single occupancy,.005mw)
                   1 small stateroom (double occupancy, .005mw)
                   4 small staterooms (muliple occupancy)
Passenger Accommodations: None
small craft and launch facilities, none
air locks: 4
cargo: 14m

NOTES:  The is a power short fall of 40.264mw.  Securing the fuel purificatio
n plant, counter-grav, and radio, will make up for this short fall.

area     surface hit       Internal Explosion
1-4       1-18 ant         (1-8) electronice (9-200) hold
5-6                        (1-3) LT, (4-6) LT, (7-20) hold
7-16                                   hold
17-18                      (1-15) eng, (16-20) quarters
19-20     1-4 Emmr                         eng

Hit Capacity: PEMS (ant): 1H; EMM: 1H; MFD: 1h; JD: 8H; MD: 1H; CG: 1H; PP: 8H;
LT: 1H; LS: 5H; ELS: 3H;

David Nelson

   "all alone in the Night"
   "It's O.K. We're Staff

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 640
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 641

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: FF&S Spreadsheet
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  2) Re.FF&S spreadsheet(again
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  3) Re: FF&S Spreadsheet
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  4) New location of web pages 
	by "G/ran Damberg" <DE9255@ida.utb.hb.se>
  5) Traveller at Euro Gen Con
	by a.s.lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
  6) WTH Econ Model
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  7) Re: RC Timeline
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:35:13 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: FF&S Spreadsheet
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960328013513.0068b318@mail.usa.net>

At 08:16 pm 3/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I've been putting together a spreadsheet to Design Starships using 
>Fire, Fusion & Steel, and have run into several snags in the weapon 
>design section...
>
>1.) The "1 hardpoint/100tons of ship" rule seems to be entirely 
>missing.  Is this a change in canon, or did someone just miss the 
>clue bus?

        I believe this one was dropped ... no decent explanation was ever
given as to why you could only install 1 hardpoint/100tons of ship,
regardless of whether it was a merchant or a military vessel anyway.

>2.) While mention is made of "Standard" Turret sockets and their 
>associated volumes, it is strongly implied that turrets can be *any* 
>size.  Since turrets seem to no longer have any cost, there seems to 
>be no reason to build to specific size.  Is this also a change in 
>canon (from Brilliant Lances, at least), or once again an editing 
>error?

        Not a change from Brilliant Lances; an expansion. As to why you'd
use a standard size socket ... so you can install a standard size turret.
Brilliant Lances was more plug'n'play ... notice you also couldn't design
your own lasers, so there was no reason to even mention other turret sizes.

>
>
><Yes, I know it's silly to bother with the spreadsheet when the 
>entire system will be changing, but I don't care to wait 6 months+, 
>assuming everything stays on schedule, for the latest set of rules>

        If any brains are applied, the entire system shouldn't change ...
improved, maybe. But I may be too optimistic.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 96 22:22:01 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re.FF&S spreadsheet(again
Message-ID: <17513356@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

Hey, if someone wants to send a Mac-Capable version my way, that's be cool :-)

Of course, the challenge to make one of my own is strong...

-j

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:14:37 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: FF&S Spreadsheet
Message-ID: <9603280614.AA26632@Rt66.com>

 
> >1.) The "1 hardpoint/100tons of ship" rule seems to be entirely 
> >missing.  Is this a change in canon, or did someone just miss the 
> 
>         I believe this one was dropped ... no decent explanation was ever
> given as to why you could only install 1 hardpoint/100tons of ship,
> regardless of whether it was a merchant or a military vessel anyway.

It was arbitrary, but figure out the number of such turrets you can put
on say, a Tigress using the old deckplans as a model for turret surface
area...  I did once and found that the laser turrets alone crowded the
surface of a Tigress.  It was for that reason that I always thought in
terms of factors for old HG stuff.  I considered batteries to just be
bigger, or better guns, not just piles of smaller ones.  In TNE terms,
it might be the difference between a ROF 100 150MJ LT and a ROF 800 one.

Any future incarnation of FF&S or FF&S Light should weight factors
(assuming a return to HG/MT UCPs) by discharge energy, and ROF (number
of weapons is just an ROF improvement except in the case of critical
hits (really small ships, anyway)).
 
Wow, quite a digression.

> ><Yes, I know it's silly to bother with the spreadsheet when the 
> >entire system will be changing, but I don't care to wait 6 months+, 
> >assuming everything stays on schedule, for the latest set of rules>
> 
>         If any brains are applied, the entire system shouldn't change ...
> improved, maybe. But I may be too optimistic.

Agreed.  I'd like to see it fixed, but a lot of it's worthwhile.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date:          Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:27:24 +0100
From: "G/ran Damberg" <DE9255@ida.utb.hb.se>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: New location of web pages 
Message-ID: <1D0231B104F@ida.utb.hb.se>

Hi,

I have moved my Traveller web pages back to the original site again, 
so they can now be found at:

http://enterprise.shv.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 09:54:05 +0000
From: a.s.lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller at Euro Gen Con
Message-ID: <199603281002.FAA23551@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com>, responded to:

>>Does anybody know if Imperium Games is going to be appearing at any game
>>conventions during 1996? Which ones/where? And when does product start
>>springing from their presses?

with:

>I hear UK GenCon in September, but I don't think it's cast in stone <eh?>.

When I last talked to Ken Whitman (of Imperium Games) he implied that this
year may be too busy to allow either he or Marc Miller to get to the Euro
Gen Con.

However, BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) are intending to run a

***** Traveller Tournament *****

on the Saturday at Euro Gen Con, as well as:

*** Participation/Demonstration games ***

all the other days.

We are collaborating with other groups to try to make this the main 'launch'
of the new Traveller in the UK. We are hoping to organise special Traveller
issues of the UK RPG magazine * Valkyrie * magazine and we hope (God
willing) to be selling the new Traveller with supplements to allow people to
go straight back to their favourite "Milieu 1100" (i.e. the 'known' Third
Imperium) in addition to the Imperium Games "Milieu 0" setting.

Much of this still remains to be 'cast in stone' with Ken and Marc, but we
hope to provide Traveller with a good marketing opportunity in the UK.

NOTE: If anyone in the British Isles (ok, Northern Europe even?) is
interested in helping with this, or just in attending Euro Gen Con to play
or referee in the tournament, please send me an e-mail with your details. In
fact, if any of you across the Atlantic will be making the big trip across
to England, please contact me too! :-)

"Keeping the Flame Burning"

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:22:46 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: WTH Econ Model
Message-ID: <199603281622.KAA28051@osh1.datasync.com>

 HELP!!!!!!!!!

I was looking through World Tamers Handbook last night.  I'm trying to build
a quasi economic model of Aubaine.  Here's my problem.

Path of Tears - pg.26 - "Most Schalli on Aubaine are engaged in ...
agriculture.  Most of the sea farming on Aubaine is done by the Schalli...."

This by itself does not constitute a problem as...

World Tamer's Handbook - pg.27 - "Capital:  This represents ... for
agriculture ... plows, barns, fishing boats ...."

The agricultural pursuits of the Schalli would be part of the agriculture
for the economic model.  My problem comes in that pages 20-21 of World
Tamer's Handbook give no clue as to the useable area or richness of water
hexes.  Some portion of the water is going to be unuseable as algae farms
due to shipping lanes, fishing areas, public boating areas, etc.  Also,
should fishing be treated as harvasting crops or as livestock?  I would
appreciate some help on this matter.

(I also think that water hexes should be given raw material useable area and
richness values.  What about offshore drilling and, at higher tech levels,
underwater mining?)

Awaiting comments!!

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:18:58 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: RC Timeline
Message-ID: <199603281818.MAA30883@osh1.datasync.com>

Geez, post your opinion and see what happens.  This post got more responses
than any of my other posts, and talk about quick responces.

O.K.  How 'bout some explanation.

>From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
>
> Your suffering from the same problem as the regency, your rate of 
>expansion is faster then physicialley possible(even for x-boats, almost).
> When one looks at Traveller interstellar commerce and diplomacy, one 
>must think in terms of DECADES, and not months of years.
>
>bri <bri@teleport.com>

This is an excellent point.  I agree that neither the Coalition nor the
Regency *SHOULD* be able to expand this quickly, and yet in Vampire Fleets
we are given a quote that tells us that they at least have met and learned
something about one another.  See below comments on meeting vs expansion.

------

>From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
>
>Maight as well put it on top of the mail: _Read everything here with a 
>big IMHO stamped on it. (Some irony wouldn't hurt either.)_
>
>> I think most speculation here on the mailing list has boiled down the Black
>> Curtain being to a Virus run interstellar society. 
>
>Support that one. An idea which I liked a Traveller GM not on this list 
>put forward was the key to the Black Curtain was a virus infected ancient 
>artifact. (Watch the player's panic when they understand it. ;) )
>

I like that idea as well.  IIRC wasn't Capital an Ancient site?  I don't
have my MT stuff with me, but I seem to recall that there was some type of
Ancient stuff on Capital.

>>   1204 - RC allows Virus citizens.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
>
>Personally I don't incorporate this one in my campaign. I think the 
>collapse was too traumatic for a sufficient majority to accept virus 
>citizens.
>

I agree that it is a bit too much to believe that the RC would accept these
machines as Citizens, but the Vampire Fleets book says just that.  (I know
that the books are just a guide.)  The book goes on to say that the division
over this issue breaks across all other issues (Centrist/Federalist) in
government.  I can immagine this would be a subject of great controversy.
Initially, many Citizens would be appalled by this decision, but little by
little the prejudice would disappear.

>>   1206 - RC & REGENCY meet.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
>
>A bit fast, I think. Like everything in Traveller, so that isn't much of 
>a problem. :)
>

I agree it's fast, but that's what the book says.

>> ??1206 - RC & REGENCY begin War.  (My Guess)
>
>I think they would have a resource and distance problem. And besides, 
>wouldn't it be natural if RC met the Virus society first? (If the source 
>books don't fit in, skip them. :) ) What reason has Regency to expand? My 
>impression is that the Regency is rather isolationistic.

The Regency sourcebook says that the Regency by 1202 has started expanding.  
IIRC, they have begun a few missions into Gushemege and/or Ilelish Sectors.
IIRC, there is some sentiment in the Regency to rebuild the old Imperium
with Norris' ideals.  The Regency is ready to expand.  I think that
resources and distance would be problems, aren't they always in a war?

Right now I'm not Gaming (I don't think they know what it is here in
Mississipppi), so I'm using my free time to develop the RC.  On a whim, I
sketched down some future events based on what info we were given in the
books.  That's why I can't just skip the books this is based on the books.

------

>From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
>
>	Ghod no!!! The foundations of both the RC and the Regency lie in
>the horrific reality of the Rebellion, Hard Times and the
>Collapse...there's no way they'll allow a repeat so quickly.
>Relations may well be prickly, and occasional border clashes will
>occur, but there is no way that a generalized war will break out,
>the respective populations would never allow it.

I disagree (we're both allowed our own opinions).

The RC hates the Imperium that caused the Rebellion.  The sourcebooks give
the impression that the typical RC Citizen almost Violently hates the idea
of another Imperium.  Also, the RC has/will allow Virus machines "with the
same values" to be Citizens.

The Regency is based on the Imperium.  The Regency is the continuation of
the Imperium.  The Regency is trying to Expand and Rebuild the Imperium.
The Regency stands for much of what the RC hates.  The Regency Hates Virus.
The Rape of Trin sent shock waves and tears throughout the Regency.  The RC
has accepted these Vile machines.

Both governments are bent on modeling the new Interstellar government on
their own ideas and these ideas are near opposites.  Both Governments are
headed into the wilds with Fighting (Virus or TEDs) on their minds.  I think
there will be a war.  I don't see a major battle, just a little war(Persian
Gulf not WWII).


>	Secondly, the one absolutely sure thing that any schoolchild in 
>either the Regency or the RC knows from history is that fighting 
>three way wars are a certain route to disaster.  

This is why the war ends, both sides must join together if they are going to
beat the Black Curtain Virus Society.

>The Regency, at 
>least, if they honor the legacy of Norris at all, will never lightly 
>enter into another interstellar war with anything less than their 
>very survival at stake. The RC simply can't afford one at all.

Everything the RC stands for is contrary to "the flame" that Norris spoke
of.  The Rapidly expanding RC will leave no room in its ranks for this
Imperial sentiment.  The RC might very well benefit from a War-time economy.

>	The fragmentary quotes mentioned provide little basis for this timeline. 
>Indeed, given the factious politics of both the Regency and the RC, 
>all quotes could well be wrong, simply inflammatory rhetoric from the 
>opposition.

I'll admit that I hadn't considered this possibility.  The first Adventure
in Vampire Fleets includes some Quotes from a "Virus expert" and she claims
that Virus activity will be increasing.  This fact is not supported
elsewhere; the facts even tend to point to a continued reduction of Virus
activity.

This is a unique idea, I'll have to consider it further.

>	The RC and Regency need each other far more than they need to fight 
>each other...there's an entire known universe to reclaim.  The RC has 
>the experience with the Wilds that the Regency doesn't, and the 
>Regency has the tech that the RC so desperately needs that it has to 
>resort to Smash&Grab to get it.  I don't think for a moment that the leaders 
>of either side are so stupid as to fight; they're all far too 
>pragmatic for that.

You're right, they do need each other, I just don't think they will realize
this at first.  Both governments have done well without help from the other
so far, and Human pride is notorious for rejecting help until desparation
sets in. I don't think they are stupid enough to fight, I think they will
not look at the true issues.  I think they will look at the surface of their
opponent, not the actual facts.  The truth is that the Regency survived this
long because they were able to cooperate with other governments that
differed in ideas and priorities almost as much as the Regency and RC
differ.  The RC is based on not dictating what type of government you will
use as long as the citizens are happy about the government.  TEDs are
overthrown to help the citizens, but a couple of RC worlds are glorified
TEDs.  If Regency citizens are happy with their government, the RC (by their
own ideals) shouldn't force change on them.

>	Virus as RC citizens? The Regency won't like it, and certainly will 
>not allow them to enter the Regency, but that alone is not a reason 
>for war.  Indeed, the Regency may well want to study them very 
>closely, to ensure that the Regency is Virus-proofed by design rather 
>than by Quarantine.

I see this fact (and it is fact), as one of the major points of conflict
between the two.

>	As for the Black Curtain...the 'I am Lucan of Borg...prepare to be
>assimilated' scenario has always been a favorite of mine.  In fact,
>the 'Lucan is God' version of Virus on a general rimward course, as
>described in the Vampire sourcebook, as well as the more advanced
>Puppeteer strains, also coming from coreward do tend to support the
>existence of a Virus dominated, if not exclusive, society.

I'm glad to see at least one thing I said sparked a majority of agreement.  :)

>	But the Regency and the RC need each other far too much on a
>variety of levels...political, tactical, economic to ever go to a
>generalized war, certainly not less than 100 years after the
>rebellion and collapse. 

I agree.  A bum on drugs needs a doctor, but he may not go, and if he goes,
the doctor may not see him.  I think initially the Pride of the RC and
Regency will blind them to their need for one another.  The effects of
having to join forces against a common enemy will help them overcome these
problems, though.

>	Besides, dammit, the timlines are still way too compressed.  In
>1202, the RC has barely moved outside it's borders, four or five
> ... stuff deleted ...
>	The only way for there to be such contact would be long range 
>scouting missions...remember almost nothing is known about the 
>intervening space between the RC and the Regency.
>	Of course, the contact with each other will cause the respective 
>scouts to burn jets getting home to spread the news, but meaningful 
>contact via expansion has got to take place on a wider front, over a 

I agree again.  As was mentioned earlier, though, Traveller timelines are
usually a bit compressed.  I also must admit that I was writing from memory.
I still can't find my originl stuff, but the more I think about it, the more
I think I had the War start in 1210 and everything else extended from there.
This is still quick, but it is a bit more believable.  I think after the
first contact, Expansion would gravitate toward the new neighbor.

>	At most there's a handful of pocket empires in there, each 
>requiring negotiations to bring into either the fold of the RC or 
>the Regency, or to negotiate independent existence...remember...not 
>many people outside of the Regency have much taste for any flavor of 
>imperial domination again.

These would start out as trading partners and over time either be allied
only, or absorbed entirely.

>	The Regency also is going to be facing expansionist pressures from 
>the Aslan, from displaced Zhodanis, etc., so there's going to be a 
>wide front of expansion, which will slow things down considerably.  

Here, I disagree.  The Aslan will expand toward their original area of
space(I think Regency Sourcebook says that they've already Started).  The
Zhodani will encourage expansion as the Population increases, not slow it down.

>By the time that the RC and the Regency meet on terms that involve 
>that wide front, they're going to be very different entities,and it's 
>gotta be more like 25-50 years in the future.  They could KNOW about 
>each other by 1206, but no way they're going to fight a war by 1206.

The knowledge of each other would generate a desire for trade.  Once Trade
routes were established, worlds would be colonized.  These worlds would grow
quickly with trade and eventually start their own colonies.  The discovery
of each other would tend to cause expansion towards one another.

>	Teaming up to take on whatever threat is coming from the core is
>another matter entirely...but even that will be more like two widely
>separated wars that happen to be going on at the same time.  If the
>forces from the Black Curtain are at all powerful, the Regency will
>not be able to do much more than offer moral support to the RC, and
>certainly the RC won't have the resources to do squat to or for the
>Regency.  If it comes to war between the Black Curtain and the RC,
>it's going to be strictly desperation actions by the RC and the
>Hivers...they haven't got anywhere near the resources to take on
>anything more than isolated squadrons of ships, much less capital
>fleets.  

My ideas of the battle with the Black Curtain Virus Society are not
completely established, but I know that the Humans win.  More on this later.

>	Look at the timelines for the Yards at Aubaine,  they have a backlog 
>of something like 10 ships, and by 1202 are the ONLY class A 
>shipyard. The RC doesn't have the resources to build a war fleet at 
>all. By 1206, however they're supposed to be fighting a war two 
>sectors away??? Gimmie a break folks.

Not alone, they don't.  I took three things into consideration when I wrote this

1.  Trade between the RC and Pocket emppires and individual planets (like
the one in Guilded Lilly) would help the RC increase its work force,
material base, and production capacity.

2.  I think a lot of help would come from the Hiver.  The RC, or so it is
hinted at, is a Hiver manipulation.  The Regency would possibly affect the
results of this manipulation.  The Hiver also didn't seem too fond of the
old Imperium.

3.  Much of the initial expansion by the RC is towards the Solomani Rim.  A
reuniting with the Solomanu, Vegans, and others help the RC grow.



This is all opinion.  Please, don't anyone get too excited about this.  You
could be right and I could be wrong, but until we know, I'll follow my ideas.

Also please remember to change the initial war date to 1210 and move all the
other dates back in accordance.

Sorry for such a long message.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 641
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 642

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) A thought....
	by Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
  2) Low Berths
	by Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
  3) Task System
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  4) Trav4 Convention
	by "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
  5) High Tech in Traveller
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:17:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: A thought....
Message-ID: <01I2VPP844828WYH0Q@POMONA.EDU>

     After reading the various speculations on the future history of the
RC/Regency I actually became interested in TNE history for the first time in
several years and decided what we need to see-- MILIEU 1230: The Machine Wars
(don't quibble with the date, I picked it at random).  The area formerly
occupied by the 3I is now split among three major interstellar powers: the
Regency, The RC, and the Black Curtain Society (BCS), but all of them are
pretty small and there's lots of no-man's-land space in-between (kinda like the
Hard Times-era map).  All of them are mutually hostile to some degree, but they
also need one another (BCS would obviously be developed further, beyond the
"Lucan of Borg" stereotype).  Re-exploration is continuing- the search for new
and more powerful allies, lost tech, etc.- but now we've also got the
possibility of high-level diplomacy, large scale military and naval ops, and
more.  I suppose we'd also have to resolve the "Empress Wave" thing, but since
I don't even know what that is/was (was it introduced in the Regency
Sourcebook?-- never bought it) I can't offer much comment there.
     GDW supposedly wanted to put the "excitement" back into Traveller by
having a small HQ, limited resources, and a generally small-scale-but-detailed
environment, but I think that experiment failed; things were too limiting and
if you didn't like military Smash&Grab missions you were pretty much out of
luck.  By moving the clock ahead, expanding outward a bit, and throwing some
more things into the mix I think this would be a much more viable milieu than
the "current" Milieu 1200.  Maybe I'm oversimplifying things here, but it has
always seemed to me that for Traveller to really work it has to have a large
scale; strategic maneuvering, diplomacy, the historical sweep, the "big 
questions," all that, to me, has always been an integral part of what makes 
Traveller interesting (can you tell I was reared on MegaTraveller?), and I
think that it was a huge mistake for GDW to (more-or-less) completely take that
element away.  Plus, with the empires in conflict, you get all kinds of neat
moral ambiguities which I love so much, and which were underplayed so much as
to be virtually nonexistant in recent stuff: how much is the RC really being
manipulated by the Hivers?  what if not everybody wants to form a new Imperium
based on Norris's ideals?  what's Grandfather been up to recently?  are the
BCS really inhuman devils that must be destroyed at all costs?  and so forth.

Trent Smith
P.S.  Even if such a thing ever were to reach print, I wouldn't expect (or even
particularly WANT) it to be released until about five years from now-- we need
that much time to let the new and improved game flourish, to let the traumatic
memories of the "New Era" fade, and, most importantly, to rethink the whole
thing and see if we can't come up with some more plausible and canon-friendly 
"revisionist history" to cover the time between the Rebellion and this milieu.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 20:56:18 CST
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: sinbad@dfw.net
Subject: Low Berths
Message-ID: <9603290256.AA16859@dfw.dfw.net>

According to the article I read there are two very different types of low
berths: the chill berth and the cold berth.

The chill berth is generally found at lower tech levels (9-11).  The rate of
time passage in a chill berth is about 4 hours per 10 days in the berth.
Prolonged chill berth hibernation has the following effect:

"A character takes a 1 point wound (randomly select which characteristic)
for every continuous year he spends in a chill berth.  However, when all
characteristics have been reduced to less than 1, the character dies.

After revival, the character must spend 1D days of total inactivity for each
year spent in hibernation, during which he heals the lost 1 characteristic
point for that year (applied to the characteristic of the players choice)."

The cold berth is generally found at higher tech levels, but can be found as
low as TL9 (but people frequently died in those days, and that is where the
low lottery came in).  I could find no rate of time passage in the article,
concerning cold berths.  Prolonged cold berth hibernation works exactly the
same way as in the quotes above, but substitute "25 years" for "year".

The above was taken from The Travellers' Digest #21, pp 40-45.  I was
surprised to see that no one else remembered this article until I remembered
which list I was reading.


Jimmy Simpson
Lurker Below
O-


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:09:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Task System
Message-ID:  <9603290909.aa00939@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

Now, since the MT task system is used for the new Traveller edition,
I will submit my recommendation for a task system to this list(if
someone is interested - if not apology for the waste of bandwith)
The system will produce analogue results as the TNE Task system
for the described difficulty levels, while introducing intermediate
difficulties and does not require ANY math
(except comparing numbers). At Difficulties of Difficult or greater
the results will be equal (except that Formidable and Impossinle 
tasks with Assets not devidable by the numbers have a propability of
exact n/2 or n/4, all without anyone doing any calculations)  



Difficulty Table

Level   Description     DNo
----------------------------
  -4    Easy             5
  -3    Easy Average     7
  -2    Average         10
  -1    Easy Difficult  14
  
   0    Difficult       20 ----- Table is symetric around this line
  
  +1    Very Difficult  14 \
  +2    Formidable      10 | -- Logharitmic scale DNo is about
  +3    Very Formidable  7 |    20 / (sqrt(2)^Difficulty Level)
  +4    Extreme          5 /

Resolving tasks:

1.  Determine Difficulty, Difficulty Number (DNo) and Asset
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.  If difficulty is Difficult or worse (Difficulty Level 0+) continue
    with step 2.1 else with step 2.2

2.1 Roll a D20. If the result is Asset or less roll it again. If second 
    roll is DNo or less, Task is SUCCESS else Task is a FAILURE.
    Continue with step 3. (See below for examples)  

2.2 Roll a D20. If the result is Asset or less Task is success. Else if
    the result is above the DNo You may reroll. If now the
    roll is Asset or less Task is SUCCESS else Task is a FAILURE.
    Optional: You may reroll as often as the absolute Difficulty Level
    indicates. Continue with step 3. (See below for examples)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Determine Outstanding success / Critical failure

3.1 Outstanding success: If any roll is 10 or less lower the required 
    number => Outstanding success

3.2 Critical failure: If any roll is 10 or more greater the required
    number => Critical failure

3.3 If one roll indicates critical failure and one critical success, they
    cancel each other out. Note that at difficulties of less than 
    Difficult even critical failures may be rerolled if greater than
    DNo. Normal successes may be rerolled(if greater DNo) to get outstanding 
    success, but the last roll counts, even if a failure(all or nothing !)  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Examples:
    2.1: Very Difficult(14) Task, Asset is 12. 
    2.1.1 First roll 13+ => FAILURE.
    2.1.2 First roll 12-, second roll 15+ => FAILURE
    2.1.3 First roll 12-, second roll 14- => SUCCESS

    2.2: Easy Difficult(14) Task, Asset is 12.
    2.2.1 First roll 13-14 (no reroll) => FAILURE
    2.2.2 First roll 15+, second roll 13+ => FAILURE
    2.2.3 First roll 15+, second roll 12- => SUCCESS
    2.2.4 First roll 12- => SUCCESS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
Firing stats:
   Firing stats for weapons have to be modified. There are three
   ways:

4. The rugged way: Simply change nothing. If the range is in a gray
   zone between range bands, use the intermediate Difficulty Level.

5. The nice way:

5.1 Table based: 

5.1.1 Create Table:
      Create twenty numbers for every weapon, based on its 
      range. They are calculated by 
      ((long range-short range)/20*n)+ short range, where n is the zero
      based index of the number.

5.1.2 Determine DNo:
      Count the numbers on this table until You are at the first number
      greater or equal to the target distance. This count is the DNo for
      a Quick Shot firing task. If shot was Aimed halve the target distance
      before comparing it to the table. For every difficulty increase
      double the traget distance (Sorry for this but it is the 
      easiest way to do it without generating lots tables)
      See below for example.

5.2 Math Based: 

5.2.1 Create new weapon stats:
      For all people who don't like tables. The range stats
      for a weapon is given by a Range Number, and a Divisor.
      The Divisor is equal to (long range) / 20 and should be
      rounded to 1,2,4,5,10,20,25,50,100..., the "natural" division numbers
      for a ten based system (with only 2's and 5's in them)
      The Range Number is equal to Short range / Divisor.
      See below for example.
5.2.2 Determine DNo:
      The task is rolled using rule 2.1, exception: see below
      DNo=Base DNo + Range Number - (distance to target/Divisor)
      Base DNo: DNo for Difficult+ Tasks, 40+Range Number for Easy tasks.
      If the DNo is 28 or greater the task becomes Easy Difficult(14),
      if it is 40 or greater it becomes Easy(10).

6. The realistic(TM) way:

6.1 This way is similar to the nice math based way, but with some 
    modifications.

6.1.1 Determine the difficulty of the task normaly, without considering
      Range.
6.2.2 Roll for SUCCESS. If FAILURE shot is a miss else continue with
      6.2.3
6.2.3 Roll again to confirm hit. If roll is less or equal DNo
      determined in 5.2.2 shot is a hit else it misses. However
      the rerolls in 2.2 may be used for this roll.

Thomas Kathmann    
    
      

 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:05:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Trav4 Convention
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.960329075923.22969A-100000@cummings.uchicago.edu>

I have it on good authority that Imperium Games at this point plans to 
"roll out" the New Traveller (aka trav4, Traveller:the Next Generation, 
etc. etc.) At GenCon in Milwaukee WI this August.

I'm planning on being there, then again my in-laws live  in the area so I 
have a good excuse (contrary to my return addresses, I live in Boston now, 
so it isn't as easy to get there as previously).

So here's a question, will there be a TML presence at GenCon or what?  Be 
nice to put some faces with the posts.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 17:23:14 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: High Tech in Traveller
Message-ID: <9603292223.AA22033@chara.gsu.edu>

 
Hi,
There has been alot of talk lately about how Traveller doesn't use alot
of the new sci-fi technologies such as nanotech, cybernetics, genetic
engineering etc. I don't think that is a huge problem. 
With nanotech, we can assume alot of this takes place
behind the scenes, the TL-15 computers could have nanomachines inside of
them constantly repairing damaged components.  Perhaps the construction of
Bonded Superdense involves nanomachines arranging the atoms in the proper
structures.  These are fairly mundane uses of nanotech, for the really
radical uses such as rewriting human DNA at a mere thought, (For more
examples see the BOHR MAKER by Linda Nagata, pretty cool sci-fi novel) Imperial
society frowns on these.  We already know that Imperial society frowns
on psionics, so why not other things which don't appear in canon. 
The Imperium limits Robots, (See Book 8) it doesn't allow really dangerous 
Warbots.  So it seems reasonable to assume they prohibit other things
which would disrupt society.  After all  the Vilani are still a force
in Imperial politics, and they are very conservative about new technology. 
        If you want a really radical society based on
the use of Nano-tech put it on an amber or red zone planet, or on one
of the numerous splinter states on the edge of the Imprerium. 
        Another thing, is if you are playing in the New Era, with the 
destruction of Imperial society, many of the social prohibitions will 
also be destroyed.  Many of the planets in the Wilds use psionics, why
can't they also change their opionion of nanotech, or cybernetics.
Most won't have the technological skills, but there are some bastions
of high tech out there. (What would be the TL of nanotech be anyway?) 
I can see alot of TEDs equiping their troops with cybernetic equipment,
or using  nanotech weapons that dissolve the enemy into puddles of goo.

Just a few thoughts.
Lewis


 

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 642
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 643

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Imperial Tech Level at Year 0
	by nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
  2) Need a little help...
	by jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@compuserve.com>
  3) Isolated systems
	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  4) RC Time line
	by David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
  5) High Tech in Traveller
	by prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 96 12:55 GMT
From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: Imperial Tech Level at Year 0
Message-ID: <memo.72882@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <199603280124.UAA18734@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>
In Digest 640  Mark Urbin asked:

>>Just what was the limits of Imperial Technology at the start of 
the ThirdImperium?<<

The old MT Referee's Companion [assuming it's still canon in the 
'Fourth Age' :-) ] gave the Sylean Federation/Third Imperium TL12 
in year -150 and TL13 in year 300.

Nick



------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 96 09:28:29 EST
From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@compuserve.com>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Need a little help...
Message-ID: <960330142828_103010.212_GHU81-1@CompuServe.COM>

	I was rifling through my books and found out that books 1-3 are gone. I
was wondering if anyone knew of a seller of the original book sets, supplements,
and others, either a hobby store or old book seller. I have tried to call
Weekend Warrior in Hollywood, Calf. , but they do not answer ( I got a lot of
the books from them. I guess they do not sell them anymore...).
	If anyone can help, I would appriciate any help.


	Jeff




	"Shoot first, appoligize later..."Music Line, Dogs Eye View


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 06:40:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: tml <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Isolated systems
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.92.960330063942.23240A-100000@linda.teleport.com>

 a while ago, someone posted a article on systems that are not accessable
-via- jump, I was wondering if they could mail the mentioned article to
me.
	Thanks.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:52:51 +0000 (GMT)
From: David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RC Time line
Message-ID: <199603300952.JAA00645@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>

> 
> >From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
> >
> 
> >>   1204 - RC allows Virus citizens.  (Known from Vampire Source book)
> >
> >Personally I don't incorporate this one in my campaign. I think the 
> >collapse was too traumatic for a sufficient majority to accept virus 
> >citizens.
> >
> 
> I agree that it is a bit too much to believe that the RC would accept these
> machines as Citizens, but the Vampire Fleets book says just that.  (I know
> that the books are just a guide.)  The book goes on to say that the division
> over this issue breaks across all other issues (Centrist/Federalist) in
> government.  I can imagine this would be a subject of great controversy.
> Initially, many Citizens would be appalled by this decision, but little by
> little the prejudice would disappear.
> 

I would except to see a very rough period as the silicon based life forms are 
introduced as members of the society. I expect a lot of racist feeling will be 
there, attacks on virus based ships, segregation etc. Human have a long memory 
of events and it will not be a short time for true integration. I would 
expect this to take hundreds of years, (considering how good we are at 
integrating between various human races)

> >>   1206 - RC & REGENCY meet.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
> >
> >A bit fast, I think. Like everything in Traveller, so that isn't much of 
> >a problem. :)
> >
> 
> I agree it's fast, but that's what the book says.
> 

Nope, I read that as, the Regency knows about the RC (Information from the 
the Free Trader Network), and that in 1206 it learns from the Free Trader
Network the what the actions of the RC have been, (2 years for the information
to cross the gap sounds about right), the news would have been
passed from ship to ship and the news to spread. The quote comes from the
Quarantine Service which of course will be the most anti virus group in the
Regency you will find

The Regency and the RC have not formally met, but they know of each other and 
the actions that have been taken (Free Trader network again) to recover.


I doubt that the RC and Regency will declare war on each other for years after
that (they are not close enough), however skirmishes between Silicon crewed RC
ships and Regency exploration vessels in the Wilds may occur.

Personally I see the RC having too many problems in its own backyard to worry
about the Regency. The Guild, the Empire of Solee, and the problems due the
the granting of silicon based lifeforms based lifeforms citizenship, will all
cause problems. Then there is the problem of the rather large vampire fleet
just round the corner that is not friendly.

The RC does not have the power (yet) to be a conquering force. It took a 
thousand years for the Third imperium to get to the size it was before it 
collapsed. I can see it taking a hundred year or more before the Regency 
and the RC are truely face to face. The wilds are a mess, No commander is 
going to launch battle fleets in to there, with out surveys and information 
about the lay of the land. Thus your timeline seems a little condensed from my
reading of the books

Dave

-- 
/*-------------------------------------------------------------*\
| dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk : David Mark Johnson            |
| The future's so bright, I gotto wear shades                   |
\*-------------------------------------------------------------*/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 12:23:49 -0600
From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: High Tech in Traveller
Message-ID: <199603301823.MAA09985@marlin.gulf.net>

For an interesting look at nanotech/nanomachines you should
check out the movie Virtuosity.  An otherwise uninteresting
movie that had some interesting ideas.  The Nanomechs kinda
grew like a virus.  Also the Novel a Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor 
Vinge has an interesting sequence where a ships hull is being
finished by a cloud of nanomachines.

Tariq

Its good to be back on the TML.

Cheers,
      Princess Simpson Rashid


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 643
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 644

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Economic Models (TD 641)
	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  2) RICE Paper JZ-03085: Common Languages
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  3) COA
	by AMNUSS@delphi.com
  4) Re: High Tech and Nanotechnology
	by mhclark@iastate.edu
  5) Re: Presence at GenCon
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  6) High Tech in Traveller
	by AQLH90D@prodigy.com (MR JON G FULLER)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Mar 1996 21:54:16 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Economic Models (TD 641)
Message-ID: <825556990.63746905@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

>The agricultural pursuits of the Schalli would be part of the agriculture
>for the economic model.  My problem comes in that pages 20-21 of World
>Tamer's Handbook give no clue as to the useable area or richness of water
>hexes.  Some portion of the water is going to be unuseable as algae farms
>due to shipping lanes, fishing areas, public boating areas, etc.  Also,
>should fishing be treated as harvasting crops or as livestock?  I would
>appreciate some help on this matter.

You tend to get the richest ecosystems in the arctic, where nutrient- and
oxygen-rich water wells up to the surface over areas of (relative) shallows. 
(Eg. the Grand Banks of Newfoundland.)  I would assume that shipping lanes
consume the same space in water as roads do on land (ie. quite a bit, but
subsumed within other land uses).  

I would treat fishing as harvesting crops, with the proviso that fish require
no cultivation (thus the workers can do something else when not fishing). 
This changes if you start fish farms - in this case they should be considered
livestock.  Remember that many marine animals (fish) are migratory - in
effect there will be a limited 'growing season'.  

One thing that you should add to your model is water transport.  I found that
an interesting lack in WT, especially as Terry wrote the Wet Navy ship design
rules for MT.  Assume that any hex with a navigable waterway (or coastline)
has a resource transport route (no need to build a railway unless you need
speed).  

>(I also think that water hexes should be given raw material useable area and
>richness values.  What about offshore drilling and, at higher tech levels,
>underwater mining?)

This is true.  There is the possibility for _major_ resource exploitation,
with depth as a limiting factor.  The deeper the site the more it costs to
mine it (although the cost of this should go down with increasing tech
levels.  But some resources will be better found in space (eg. metals).  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 96 19:22:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RICE Paper JZ-03085: Common Languages
Message-ID: <8BDB48A.0100070616.uuout@execnet.com>


There are a wide variety of languages in Charted Space. Most of
them are known on only one planet, or in a small polity. A few are
spread widely by the political and cultural influences of their
speakers. The languages of this second group become widely known
not as primary languages for a large number of planets, but as
second languages for an entire region of space. The languages known
as _Trade_Vilani_, _Galanglic_, and _Basic_Sylean_ are languages
that have served and do serve this purpose in Regency space.

_Trade_Vilani_ has its origins in the language now known as High
Vilani. When the First Imperium was governing Imperial Space, the
Vilani rulers, in an attempt to impose cultural homogeneity and
stability on their empire, mandated the use of their language in
all governmental and commercial communication. Since enforcement of
this mandate was difficult at any level where the local populace
was not dealing directly with Vilani, many people did not use
Vilani in their day-to-day activities, and when they did need to
use it, it was generally in a grammatically incorrect form that was
nevertheless sufficient to transmit the intended meaning. In
linguistics, these languages are called "pidgins".

It was economically impossible for the Vilani to maintain their
absolute monopoly on the operation of starships once the size of
the Imperium grew beyond the equivalent of six subsectors or so.
This was still sufficient to ensure that some form of Vilani was in
use on all of the planets as a "common" language. When planetary
concerns and governments were permitted to operate their own
starships, it was natural that they should use their ungrammatical
Vilani to communicate with each other. There are examples from many
planets demonstrating that communication has a leveling effect on
dialectal differences; the First Imperium was proof that this same
principle operated on an interstellar level as well. The result was
"Trade Vilani".

The Rule of Man had a similar effect. Here, the mandated language
was _Terran_Anglic_, a language that was itself a pidgin (based on
English) resulting from a commercial and technological advantage
possessed by North America at the time that global communication
and commerce became practical for the majority of the population,
instead of for just a few large corporations. Changes in political
and economic dominance allowed Spanish and Chinese to influence the
language, and at the time that the Rule of Man was proclaimed,
Terran Anglic would have been incomprehensible to an American or
Englishman of Terran Year CE2000.

Most planets in the First Imperium had been using Trade Vilani in
interstellar commerce; it was to be expected that it would continue
to be used to fill in gaps in the speaker's knowledge of Terran
Anglic, despite being officially "banned" from official use. The
short duration of the Rule of Man, only 400 years, was sufficient
to expose most planets to some use of Terran Anglic (which was now
being called _Galactic_Anglic_, or _Imperial_Anglic_). Small
communities of ethnic Terrans (or of people who considered
themselves ethnic Terrans, despite having never been on Terra) were
to be found on most of the important worlds of the Empire,
including Sylea and Vland, as resident administrators. These
communities survived into the Long Night, preserving the use of
Imperial Anglic on those worlds, and on many nearby worlds within
their economic influence.

During the Dawn, when the Zhunatsu family and their companies
created the Sylean Federation, they took the pragmatic view of the
question of language. Instead of mandating that Sylean be used
exclusively, they gave it and Imperial Anglic equal status. \De
jure\ equality does not mean \de facto\ equality, and it was
quickly noticed that the use of Sylean offered subtle political and
economic benefits when dealing with Syleans. Nevertheless, Imperial
Anglic was firmly entrenched, and remained widely used, absorbing
terms from Sylean as it had from Trade Vilani centuries earlier.

The Sylean Federation offered a high degree of autonomy to its
member planets. In doing so, it relinquished its ability to
influence linguistic development to the degree possible for the
Rule of Man or the Vilani Imperium before it. As a result of this
lesser influence, and the early decision to recognize the use of
Imperial Anglic in government and commerce, the Sylean language
never achieved the level of importance that Imperial Anglic and
Trade Vilani achieved.

The creation of _Basic_Sylean_ was an effort to remedy this
problem. Developed by a team of Sylean linguists, it offered a
simpler grammatical structure, paralleling that of Imperial Anglic
(although the more complex Sylean grammar could be used), and a
reduced vocabulary. Inflections were for the most part eliminated,
as were irregular verbs. Basic Sylean enjoyed a period of
popularity, but it was not able to completely displace Imperial
Anglic anywhere.

By the time Cleon I declared the Third Imperium, Imperial Anglic
had been heavily influenced by Basic Sylean, and would have been
incomprehensible to Admiral Estigarriba (Emperor Hiroshi I of the
Rule of Man), or to any Terran/Solomani of the period immediately
prior to the Rule of Man. Basic Sylean and Trade Vilani were still
used in areas where recent influence from their respective planets
of origin was strong, but Imperial Anglic, now universally called
_Galactic_Anglic_, or _Galanglic_, was \de facto\ the primary
common language of the Third Imperium throughout its expansion, and
into the Rebellion period.

In spite of this, Trade Vilani, Terran/Imperial Anglic, and Basic
Sylean can all be found in the Regency, due both to patterns of
settlement and to the Imperial policy of local autonomy. Galanglic,
as the official language of the Regency government, is used and
understood almost everywhere in the Spinward States. It provides a
common language that binds us together in a single interstellar
community, and it is also the primary language for intership and
ship-to-shore communications.

A dialect of Terran Anglic or Imperial Anglic is used for local
communications in the former Sword Worlds, and in the few remaining
independent worlds operating under that name. An even older
dialect, heavily influenced by teZhlodh (the original Daryen native
language) has the status not of a pidgin, but of a creole, in the
Daryen Confederation.

Many parts of Deneb sector use Trade Vilani; these worlds were
heavily influenced by the Vilani in the early days of colonization,
as prior to the sector gaining Administered Sector status, it was
governed from Corridor or Vland sector. Trade Vilani and Basic
Sylean are used fairly heavily near the Aslan worlds in Trojan
Reach sector; this is due to historical reasons in connection with
contact with the Aslan: The original contact between the Imperium
and the Aslan was in Daibei Sector, which was colonized by the
Vilani during the First Imperium, and which maintained its
Vilani-derived culture right through the Rule of Man and the
founding of the Third Imperium and into First Contact with the
Aslan. A dialect of Trade Vilani, heavily influenced by Trokh (and
called by the Aslan \trokh fiyalr\) was thereby established as a
trade language between the Aslan and the Imperium. When the Aslan
were encountered on the other side of the Rift, the Sylean
expedition that made contact was unable to communicate in \trokh
fiyalr\, but since the commander of the Aslan fleet that made
contact was the second son of a former Aslan ambassador to the
Imperium, there was enough knowledge of Trade Vilani and Basic
Sylean to establish communication. These languages became
established for use in communicating with trans- Rift Aslan, as
\trokh fiyalr\ had in the rimward areas of the Imperium.
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 13:41:27 -0500 (EST)
From: AMNUSS@delphi.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: COA
Message-ID: <01I2ZO0XOOYA98815Q@delphi.com>


Please change my e-mail address to

 amnuss@aol.com

Thanks

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:15:55 CST
From: mhclark@iastate.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: High Tech and Nanotechnology
Message-ID: <9603312015.AA21645@las2b.iastate.edu>

  One of the best novels to deal with the social aspects of 
nanotechnology is _The Diamond Age_ by Neal Stephenson, the author of 
_Snow Crash_.  The implications re social structures, military actions, 
and personal freedom are interesting.  I don't agree with all the 
conclusions, but its a fun read (as long as you ignore the rather 
contrived conclusion).

---
Mark H Clark
mhclark@iastate.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 17:01:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, Trav Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Presence at GenCon
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960331170040.25300B-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

I will most likely be there.  Specifics are still being worked out.  See 
you around the Imperium Games Table!

Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 17:42:21 EST
From: AQLH90D@prodigy.com (MR JON G FULLER)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: High Tech in Traveller
Message-ID: <013.04856476.AQLH90D@prodigy.com>

>For an interesting look at nanotech/nanomachines you should
>check out the movie Virtuosity.  An otherwise uninteresting
>movie that had some interesting ideas.  The Nanomechs kinda
>grew like a virus.  Also the Novel a Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor 
>Vinge has an interesting sequence where a ships hull is being
>finished by a cloud of nanomachines.
>
>Tariq
>
>Its good to be back on the TML.
>
>Cheers,
>      Princess Simpson Rashid

You might also try Neal R. Stephenson's 'The Diamond Age'.

Jon


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 644
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 645

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: High Tech in Traveller
	by James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
  2) Re: Traveller Powwow Chat Tribe
	by cmdrx@magicnet.net (Commander X)
  3) Problems with list
	by helmet@astri.uni.torun.pl (Przemyslaw Szatkowski)
  4) Life In Jupiter's Atmosphere
	by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 643
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  6) Another approach to Virus
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  7) Game anyone?
	by "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 01 Apr 96 16:24:18 +0000
From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: High Tech in Traveller
Message-ID: <0401005503-Re: High Tech in Traveller* @MHS>

>For an interesting look at nanotech/nanomachines you should check out 
>the movie Virtuosity.  

Another good reference for nanotech etc is the book Quarantine by Greg 
Egan. It is an interesting look at what happens when you push scientific 
theories to their logical extremes. It also contains lots of fascinating 
gadgets.

James Dempsey.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 00:32:00 -0500
From: cmdrx@magicnet.net (Commander X)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Traveller Powwow Chat Tribe
Message-ID: <199604010532.AAA15484@magicnet.magicnet.net>

Form the Regency Quarentine Ship "Fortune and Glory"
A hail from Commander X

Greetings one and all

I wish to declare a new forum where traveller fans of all versions can chat
and relay messages in real time...Introducing...

<Fanfare and Drumroll>

The Traveller RPG Powwow Tribe


first a disclaimer....
this tribe is in no way afilliated with Imperium Games or the Now defunct
GDW.  I'm not making any money from this...its all free, just a place for
people to come together and talk Traveller in any version.
(However, If you want me to work for you Marc, I could use the job! :) :) )

what is Powwow you ask?
Its a chat program devloped by a company called Tribal Voice and is
available Free of charge. It allows up to 7 people to chat in real time and....

IT'S MUCH EASIER THAN IRC!!!!

How do I get the program? Easy just set co-ordinates on your browser to:
http://www.enterprise1701.com and look for the Powwow ver 2.1 link.  Thats
the easiest way I know to get there...

Also while there look for the Traveller RPG tribe, just follow the links to
the sign up page. you'll see my name there beside there.

Ok, you say I got the program, and I'm signed up now what do I do?
Well you need to have Powwow running (duh!) and then either click the icon
on the web page or click "connect" on Powwow and type my email address,
which happens to be the same as the powwow adress! cmdrx@magicnet.net. If I
am online we'll be chatting! Its that simple!!!!

Well that's about it.  For more info go to the Enterprise 1701 homepage.
that URL again is http://www.enterprise1701.com/
Its a fantasy,sci-fi, horror web site for a gameing store in Orlando FL,
lots of good stuff there....but Powwow is it's major claim to fame!

>From the Frotune and Glory

"We have kept the flame....
Can we stop the fire?"
Commander X


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:37:34 +0200 (MET DST)
From: helmet@astri.uni.torun.pl (Przemyslaw Szatkowski)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Problems with list
Message-ID: <9604011237.AA04076@vega.astri.uni.torun.pl>

I have a problem withn gaining new mails from traveller list,
Anyone know something about it. I dont know if i was unsunsubscribed . From
last saturday i didnt got any list so i a little nervous?
Can anybody explain me what happend?
Thanx in advance

	helmet@vega.astri.uni.torun.pl

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Apr 1996 08:01:27 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
To: hiwg-list@fwe.com, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Life In Jupiter's Atmosphere
Message-ID: <s15f8d7b.006@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>

   Apparently, we really aren't alone after all....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pasedena CA -- In an announcement bound to produce shockwaves
around the world,  a government source disclosed a report which states
that data from the Galileo Mission to study the planet Jupiter has lead to
the conclusion that the lower atmosphere of Jupiter is "teaming with life."


The Galileo spacecraft recently launched a probe directly into the
atmosphere of Jupiter to study such things as atmospheric gasses,
weather, and radiation.  The information gathered during the probe's trip
will take years to analyze, but the source states that early data has
detected the presence of organic chemicals and gasses that are the
"signature of life."

Scientists have long speculated that the atmosphere of Jupiter may
contain alien organisms.  "The concept is not that shocking when you
consider the many forms of life that habituate the harshest environments
on Earth," stated John Furtheminer, Ph.D. noted exobiologist.  "We find
anaerobic bacteria deep in the ice of Antarctica, and tube worms in the
crushing depths of the ocean. While the upper layers of the atmosphere
are composed of very cold gasses, the mid and lower layers are
warmer and in fact are much like the eprimordial soup of  Earth a couple
of billion years ago.  Many of us have felt that the probability of life in the
lower Jovian atmosphere was quite high."

The bigger surprise was the revelation that the Galileo probe carried an
onboard camera.  NASA never publicly announced that photography
was to be a part of the mission leading to the speculation that part of the
mission was "Classified" due to strong evidence of the possibility that life
would be discovered.

This information is bound to further feed the criticism by those who
believe that the government has routinely concealed evidence of
extraterrestrial life like the famous Roswell alien specimens rumored to
be in storage at the mysterious Area 51, a classified military facility in
Nevada.

What is Jovian life like?  "I think we will see the kind of diversity we see
on Earth," stated Furtheminer.  "I would expect everything from
microscopic organisms to great floating membranes that thrive in the
windy atmosphere much like jellyfish floating in the ocean currents."

The government source could not confirm that pictures of Jovian
organisms actually exist.

Transmitted: 4/1/96 6:58 AM

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   NOW, before you go getting all misty eyed and pulling out a copy of
the movie 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY, consider what day it is....

Regards,

Harold



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:37:08 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 643
Message-ID: <199604011537.JAA01793@osh1.datasync.com>

>From: David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
>> >>   1204 - RC allows Virus citizens.  (Known from Vampire Source book)
>
>I would except to see a very rough period as the silicon based life forms are 
>introduced as members of the society. I expect a lot of racist feeling will be 
>there, attacks on virus based ships, segregation etc. Human have a long memory 
>of events and it will not be a short time for true integration. I would 
>expect this to take hundreds of years, (considering how good we are at 
>integrating between various human races)

It would take time for complete acceptance, but initial acceptance would be
quick.  There are bound to be a portion of people who will read the many
studies on Sandman and conclude that he is acceptable.  There will also be
many people who don't care what the *&$%&*$ machine says, it should be
destroyed.  Immagine the implications of a PC or NPC being tried for willful
destruction of RC Navy property when all he did was destroy a Virus machine.
Can you say "riot?"


>> >>   1206 - RC & REGENCY meet.  (Known from Vampire Sourcebook)
>
>Nope, I read that as, the Regency knows about the RC (Information from the 
>the Free Trader Network), and that in 1206 it learns from the Free Trader
>Network the what the actions of the RC have been, (2 years for the information
>to cross the gap sounds about right), the news would have been
>passed from ship to ship and the news to spread. The quote comes from the
>Quarantine Service which of course will be the most anti virus group in the
>Regency you will find
>
>The Regency and the RC have not formally met, but they know of each other and 
>the actions that have been taken (Free Trader network again) to recover.

The quote uses the phrase "you Coalition People" which gives me the
impression that the RQS commodore is talking to someone from the RC, not to
Free Traders.  I don't see this the way you do.


>I doubt that the RC and Regency will declare war on each other for years after
>that (they are not close enough), however skirmishes between Silicon crewed RC
>ships and Regency exploration vessels in the Wilds may occur.
>
>Personally I see the RC having too many problems in its own backyard to worry
>about the Regency. The Guild, the Empire of Solee, and the problems due the
>the granting of silicon based lifeforms based lifeforms citizenship, will all
>cause problems. Then there is the problem of the rather large vampire fleet
>just round the corner that is not friendly.
>
>The RC does not have the power (yet) to be a conquering force. It took a 
>thousand years for the Third imperium to get to the size it was before it 
>collapsed. I can see it taking a hundred year or more before the Regency 
>and the RC are truely face to face. The wilds are a mess, No commander is 
>going to launch battle fleets in to there, with out surveys and information 
>about the lay of the land. Thus your timeline seems a little condensed from my
>reading of the books

I thin we could talk about a war in c1235 (NE35).  I know this is different
from my original post.  I guess you guys convinced me that the time frame
was too quick.


Paul  {tiger}

tline)
>has a resource transport route (no need to build a railway unless you need
>speed).  

A good point, you have to have a capital expenditure for boats and warfs
rather than trucks and roads.  I'll have to mull this one over.


>>(I also think that water hexes should be given raw material useable area and
>>richness values.  What about offshore drilling and, at higher tech levels,
>>underwater mining?)
>
>This is true.  There is the possibility for _major_ resource exploitation,
>with depth as a limiting factor.  The deeper the site the more it costs to
>mine it (although the cost of this should go down with increasing tech
>levels.  But some resources will be better found in space (eg. metals).  

I'll have to work up some charts on this based on distance from land hexes
and such.


While you're thinking about this stuff, I have another question for you...

Muir, Lewis, and I are working on using the Economic model to develop the
RC.  Helios, as the smallest population world is where we decided to start.
According to PoT, Helios has a large service industry to facilitate the
weekly Auction.  How does a dervice industry fit into the Economic model?
After all, Haircuts and eating out requires labor and capital, but yeilds no
tangible result.  However, Both should increase the "standard of living."
And what about corporate services (accounting and marketing firms)?

Just a few thoughts to rattle around in your brain.

Eagerly awaiting responses,

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Apr 96 13:46:47 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Another approach to Virus
Message-ID: <9604011846.AA00373@chara.gsu.edu>

 
Hi
I recently read FIREDANCE by Steven Barnes, and he had a paragraph
that I found interesting. It was talking about a computer virus.

        "Versa, the Niptech virtual rom, had duplicated all of
the mainframe protocols.  It sat in there for months, absorbing
information, then sending it out of the building."
        Aubry felt genuinely confused. "It did all of that just in the
software?"
        "No.  But the main computer has its own nanotech repair
bots. Versa, ah ..." Gagnon was searching for words.
"Subverted them. Under the command of Versa, modifications
were made  to the physical structure of the machine.
        Aubry fought to remeber something that Leslie ahd
taught him. "Aren't your computers sealed from the outside?
No lines in or out?"
        "Yep. But everytime we moved information out to 
another machine, it beat us. Say we moved data in physical
storage, on a bubble chip. Versa created dual formating
on that chip, increased the storage, created an invisible
island of instructions and information. When the chip 
reached a machine that did have communication with the
exterior world, it executed its instructions, and conveyed
its data to the outside world.  Brilliant, simple, damn 
near unbeatable."

That's how I think of Virus. I still think the transponder part 
seems a big dopey. I am not trying to restart the arguments on well 
thought out Virus was, I just thought you might be interested in
what another author thought. It also is an possible use of nanotech
behind the scenes. 

Lewis
 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 16:37:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Game anyone?
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.92a.960401163619.84481A-100000@homer20.u.washington.edu>


Would anyone in the Seattle area be interested in running a campaign in
the MegaTraveller/TNE genres?

-----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 645
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 646

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Aquatic Economics
	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  2) Traveller IRC 
	by "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
  3) Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
	by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  4) Re: Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
	by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
  5) Re: FF&S Lite
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  6) COACC plane names
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  7) Re: Economic Models (TD 641)
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 645
	by David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
  9) Re: TRAVELLER digest 645
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
 10) Re: Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 01 Apr 1996 22:21:40 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Aquatic Economics
Message-ID: <3619553246.74246037@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

>A good point, you have to have a capital expenditure for boats and warfs
>rather than trucks and roads.  I'll have to mull this one over.

Wharfs are a _lot_ cheaper than roads.  And tonne to tonne, boats are cheaper
than rail, rail is cheaper than roads.  (If the US and Canadian highway
systems weren't so massively subsidized, we would use more rail than we do.) 


To a first approximation, boats are cheaper by two orders of magnitude. 
(Based on designs I worked up for MT.)  Possibly more, I think I was
underestimating the cost of land-based infrastructure.  On the other hand, a
water-based system still needs local land-based trans-shipment, so two orders
of magnitude should hold.  

Note that this will also tend to spread your settlement along navigable
waterways.


>How does a dervice industry fit into the Economic model?

Divide the service industry into two parts.  The bit that serves the home
market doesn't increase productivity, but does increase standard of living
(which makes for happier citizens).   The bit that serves off-worlders could
be treated like 'farming' a resource for capital.  (Tourist credits.)  

This would be a bit more complicated to model, as tourists/businessmen/etc
also respond to information.  On the upside, think of the adventure
possibilities.  The players are forced to do some low-level roleplaying to
keep a bunch of Oriflammen technarchs happy so they deliver a favourable
report back home!  

One point you should consider is that World Tamers deals with fairly small
planned economies.  Larger planned economies and free-market economies will
need to be handled differently.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 21:55:36 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller IRC 
Message-ID: <199604020353.VAA10758@cube.ice.net>

if anyone cares to  discuss Traveller on IRC, I am on the Undernet 
everynight as Shadowcat. if I'm not in #traveller stop by #Callahans
I'm there usually between 6pm and 10 or 11 US Central Time

Kevin Walsh

==========================================================
Shadowcat[AKA Kevin Walsh] kwalsh@ice.net
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh
"There is a fine line between sanity and Insanity,
 I dance that line"
Wargamer, Filker, SCA Herald, genneral loony




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 20:00:57 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
Message-ID: <182@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

Am I the only person who thinks that by starflight tech levels there will be 
virtual reality sufficiently sophisticated to overcome a lot of the 
claustrophobia on board starships? I got to try a three million pound flight 
simulator last year and that was impressive enough (no moving floor, it was
a graphics demonstrator only, but people still lost their balance when I banked 
just because of the visual cues)

As for stateroom sizes, I don't think that the 3.5m high deck model is 
appropriate for drawing up plans. A 3.5m x 4m x 4m stateroom would seem very 
strange (when was the last time you were in a cubic room?), more realistic size 
would be perhaps 2.4m x 4.8m x 4.8m. Even allowing for corridors, recreation 
areas etc. there would still be a room maybe 3.5 - 4m each side, slightly 
larger than the room I'm writing this in.

Use imagination to sort these problems out, a middle passage stateroom on a 
battered old trader might be described as
'The room is clean enough, but between the metal panels of the ceiling there's 
a distinct black line, dirt to remind you that the bubble wrap had been taken 
off the minimal fitted furniture long ago, like the rings left in the deep red 
wood of the bedside table by decades of hot drinks in mugs. The single light in 
the ceiling lights everything brightly, perhaps slightly too brightly, but it 
doesn't look like it'll give you much of a headache so you ignore it. As you 
sit on the bed you notice the bolts which hold it crudely to the floor. Perhaps 
in the past the ship was in the habit of running the engines hard enough to 
overload the G-compensators, to get away from pirates, or the law, hard to 
imagine that now. There is a soft hum from engineering which the sound-proofing 
doesn't quite cut out, but it seems relaxing, making the surroundings seem 
familiar.
As you lie down to sleep, your eyes draw level with the wooden bedside table, 
and you notice three words scratched into the wood, 'Good night, Traveller' you 
read, as you shut your eyes to sleep.'

Whereas high passage on a Regency liner might be:
'As you walk into the room you breath a breath a welcome breath of fresh air, 
the delicate fragrance of the plants growing by the window forming a marked 
contrast to the smoky atmosphere of the casino. You notice that the lights in 
the room have dimmed to a gentle yellow glow from the bright daylight they 
produced earlier. The window displays a scene of a sunset over a mountain 
valley, a system of lenses over the screen producing an illusion of depth. In 
one corner of the room a concealed camera observes your movements and updates 
the image to give a startling appearance of reality. It looks so real that you 
almost wish you could go outside and be part of it, but the illusion of a 
summer evening is convincing enough, so why fight it?
The room is silent, except for the low sound of the breeze moving past the 
window whose view has been captured for your pleasure. The bedsheets, 
impeccably white, are embroidered with a large unicorn insignia, the emblem of 
Norris. According to the small card propped on the table by the bed, these were 
originally from the old frontier cruiser 'Arrival Vengence', and were bought at 
auction when serious superdense fatigue in the hull meant that she finally had 
to be decommisioned for good. As you fall asleep the room's monitors supply a 
gentle melody to ease you into your dreams...'

With regard to providing corridors for engineering, flight decks, etc. why not 
assume, as with quarters that a certain percentage of the volume for 
engineering is given over to crawlways and access corridors? It's probably 
easier than adding more rules to FFS. If you want to add high levels of detail 
to a design, the ship plans offer a good outlet for that kind of fine attention 
to detail. 

-- 
Brendan 

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  2 Apr 1996 08:41:39 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
Message-ID: <9604020841.AA39251@caw.intercon.com>

Brendan O'Donovan says:
> As for stateroom sizes, I don't think that the 3.5m high deck model 
> is appropriate for drawing up plans. A 3.5m x 4m x 4m stateroom would 
> seem very strange (when was the last time you were in a cubic room?), 
> more realistic size would be perhaps 2.4m x 4.8m x 4.8m. Even allowing 
> for corridors, recreation areas etc. there would still be a room 
> maybe 3.5 - 4m each side, slightly larger than the room I'm writing 
> this in. 

Okay, please forgive my ignorance, as I am at work and can't reference 
anything, but does the 3.5m figure include just open space or does it include 
all the things between here and the 'next' level?  If the latter, then there 
is probably a ceiling at around 2.4m, with the 1.1m in between the ceiling and 
the floor of the deck above containing life support systems, power, lighting, 
etc. -- iin other words, all the things that you would hide behind a false 
ceiling.  Given the space constraints in a ship, 1.1m may be a bit excessive.

I would expect that the floor would be a raised floor as well, similar to 
those found in computer rooms.

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 09:27:53 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite
Message-ID: <199604021527.JAA13522@osh1.datasync.com>

I just got an idea for the future of FF&S that might just make everyone
happy(fat chance).  

I envision three books:

1.    Traveller Technology - FF&S Elite:  This book would be a carbon copy
of the current FF&S, possibly a little more detailed, but definitely only
using Trav universe technology.  Include detailed design sequences as well
as side bars explaining future technology. (Alternate technology is already
covered in the current FF&S.)  This book is for the major deep-in-it
gearhead.  100-ton Starship Design Time: 1-2hrs.  Example:  A design
sequence for Jump Drives explaining what the Hydrogen Fuel is used for and
how alternate energy sources can be used.

2.    Design Sequence - This book would contain two parts:
        Part A - FF&S Veteran:  This section contains generic charts for
each component based on the info from book one.  The design sequence would
be a bit more detailed than the current MT system.  Designing something is a
matter of pulling the correct numbers from the correct charts, very few
calculations.  This is for the gearhead wannabe.  100-ton Starship Design
Time:  30min-1hr.  Example:  A chart listing volume/mass/price for J1-J6 per
100-tons.
        Part B - FF&S Experienced:  This section would include generic
charts for modules (J1/M3 Module, Sensor3/Comm2 Module, Weapons 2 Module)
based on the info from books one and two.  The design sequence would be
similar to the plug-and- play sequence that some have requested on the list.
Pick five to ten modules add the volume/mass/power/price and you're done.
This is for the non-gearhead who wants variety without a lot of time and
effort.  100-ton Starship Design Time: 5-30min.  Example:  A chart listing
volume/mass/power/price for J1M1 to J6M6 modules per 100-ton.

2.    FF&S Novice:  This book would contain a multitude of ships, vehicles,
and weapons created with the first three books.  All designs would be
playtested. There is no design sequence, just pick which one you want.  This
is for the standard designs.  100-ton Starship Design Time: 1-5min (you
might have trouble making a decision).  Example:  The well-known 100-ton
Scout/Courier


All three books would be interchangeable.  In other words, suppose you want
a J2/M3 ship with laser turrets and super comm/sensor suite.  You glance
through FF&S Novice, and don't see what you're looking for.  You look in
FF&S Experienced and pick the J2/M3 Module and the Laser 2 Module, but none
of the Sensor/Comm Modules is exactly what you're looking for.  No problem,
use either FF&S Veteran or FF&S Elite to handpick your sensor/comm suite.
Finish the ship with either handpicked items or standard modules, and you're
done.

The most important part is the interrelationship.  When I didn't understand
a part of FF&S, I picked up the TNE rules book and tried to create one of
the Vehicles in there.  It didn't work, and I still didn't understand the
FF&S rule.  If the books can be used together, I would be able to do this.

The other thing that would need to be considered would be the
price/size/tech level issue.  A TL-12 type computer produced at TL-15 would
be much cheaper and much smaller than a TL-12 computer produced at TL-12.  I
know this is old material.

I have to give credit to Muir, he got me thinking along the lines of Novice,
Experienced, Veteran, and Elite for another project.

Anyway, if you're still listening, Mr. Miller, This is just my idea to try
to solve everyone's questions.

Just my 2Cr.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 96 13:32:09 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: COACC plane names
Message-ID: <9604021832.AA02401@chara.gsu.edu>

 
Hi,

The thing that always annoyed me with COACC (the MT aircraft design rules)
is the names of the planes.

The book says that the Imperium names their planes after Terran cities.  
Why would the Imperium name planes after cities on the homeworld of
one of their chief enemies.  Another thing, is that most people wouldn't 
even know the names of cities on Terra, in real life, most people don't 
know alot of cities in other countries.  Also I just can't see my players
being worried about being attacked by a San Diego Fighter plane. 
So I came up with alternative names for the planes.  Some are better than 
others, I don't know how much use this is to anyone, but I was typing 
it up for my own use, so I figured I'd send along a copy to the 
mailing list.

Lewis

- -------------------------------------------------------

COACC Name               New Name
Ypres Biplane           Sparrowhawk
Tuscon Fighter          Hammer
Cheyenne Fighter        Cheyenne        (The only one I liked)
Laramie Fighter         Bronco
Reno Hypersonic         Screaming Eagle
Abilene Fighter         Silver Bullet 
Daytona                 Wraith
Nuremburg               Veldock
Chicago                 Sunray
Pleiko                  Tundra
San Diego               Typhoon
Pretoria                Starburst
Port Stanley            Kingfisher
Lombard Helicopter      Archangel
Bitburg                 Phalanx
Greenwich               Zephyr
Springfield             Locust
Seattle                 Vampyre
Los Angles              Mjolnir
Mexico City (Bomber)    Barrage
Van Nuys                Vision
Avalon                  Sea Sprite
Beverly Hills           Luxor
Anchorage               Sky Galleon
Nairobi                 Savannah King
Pasadena                Skylifter
Hartford                Colt
Palm Springs            Jetsetter
Ankhe                   Blacksnake
Dallas                  Rebel
Mexico City (Cargo)     Caravan
Toyko                   Cloud King
Magnum                  Magnum
Melbourne               Odyssey
Calcutta Helistat       Bock
Akron Airship           Altair
Boise                   Oni

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:08:29 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Economic Models (TD 641)
Message-ID: <199604021908.NAA18986@osh1.datasync.com>

I tried to send this to the lase digest and it got messed up.  So, let's try
again.


>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>
>You tend to get the richest ecosystems in the arctic, where nutrient- and
>oxygen-rich water wells up to the surface over areas of (relative) shallows. 
>(Eg. the Grand Banks of Newfoundland.)  I would assume that shipping lanes
>consume the same space in water as roads do on land (ie. quite a bit, but
>subsumed within other land uses).  

With no need for infrastructure, it's no wonder Aubaine whethered the
Collapse so well even with the influx of refugee's during the Final War.  So
how about this:

  Water Hexes:
     Richness:
        From the Freeze line, 
             1st row:   1.4 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)   - too coldfor high richnness 
             2nd row:   1.7 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)   - ideal
             3rd row:   1.4 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)   
             4th row:   1.3 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)
             5th row:   1.0 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)
             6th row:   0.8 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)
             7th row:   0.6 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)
             8th row:   0.5 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)   - warm
             9th row:   0.3 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)   - hot
            10th row:   0.1 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)   - getting hotter
            11th row:   0.0 +/- .3 (1D6 x .1)   - too hot


      Useable Area:
         pole1st row:   90% +/- 10% (1D10)
             2nd row:   90% +/- 10% (1D10)
             3rd row:   90% +/- 10% (1D10)   
             4th row:   90% +/- 10% (1D10)
             5th row:   85% +/- 10% (1D10)
             6th row:   80% +/- 10% (1D10)
             7th row:   70% +/- 10% (1D10)
             8th row:   60% +/- 10% (1D10)    - shipping lanes
             9th row:   60% +/- 10% (1D10)    - shipping lanes  
            10th row:   60% +/- 10% (1D10)    - shipping lanes  
         equ11th row:   60% +/- 10% (1D10)    - shipping lanes  

                Ice Cap hexes = 0%


Does this look like it migh work?


>I would treat fishing as harvesting crops, with the proviso that fish require
>no cultivation (thus the workers can do something else when not fishing). 
>This changes if you start fish farms - in this case they should be considered
>livestock.  Remember that many marine animals (fish) are migratory - in
>effect there will be a limited 'growing season'.  

Something like a 1/4 year growing season at 4 locations.  During the season,
the workers would "harvest" fish.  A generic fishing richness number could
be provided, and the useable area would be the same as above.  When the
season was over, and the schools moved, the workers would go back to their
farms while other workers in other areas would leave their farms to go fish,
so the net change in workers would be negligible for most of the year.  I
know this leaves no time for replenishment for the fish, but the model
leaves no room for allowing soil to regain nutrients either.  to be more
realistic, I guess you could limit the fishing to half the year like the
agriculture growing period.


>One thing that you should add to your model is water transport.  I found that
>an interesting lack in WT, especially as Terry wrote the Wet Navy ship design
>rules for MT.  Assume that any hex with a navigable waterway (or coastline)
>has a resource transport route (no need to build a railway unless you need
>speed).  

A good point, you have to have a capital expenditure for boats and warfs
rather than trucks and roads.  I'll have to mull this one over.


>>(I also think that water hexes should be given raw material useable area and
>>richness values.  What about offshore drilling and, at higher tech levels,
>>underwater mining?)
>
>This is true.  There is the possibility for _major_ resource exploitation,
>with depth as a limiting factor.  The deeper the site the more it costs to
>mine it (although the cost of this should go down with increasing tech
>levels.  But some resources will be better found in space (eg. metals).  

I'll have to work up some charts on this based on distance from land hexes
and such.


While you're thinking about this stuff, I have another question for you...

Muir, Lewis, and I are working on using the Economic model to develop the
RC.  Helios, as the smallest population world is where we decided to start.
According to PoT, Helios has a large service industry to facilitate the
weekly Auction.  How does a dervice industry fit into the Economic model?
After all, Haircuts and eating out requires labor and capital, but yeilds no
tangible result.  However, Both should increase the "standard of living."
And what about corporate services (accounting and marketing firms)?

Just a few thoughts to rattle around in your brain.

Eagerly awaiting responses,

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:35:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 645
Message-ID: <199604021935.TAA00276@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>

Tiger worte:
> 
> It would take time for complete acceptance, but initial acceptance would be
> quick.  There are bound to be a portion of people who will read the many
> studies on Sandman and conclude that he is acceptable.  There will also be
> many people who don't care what the *&$%&*$ machine says, it should be
> destroyed.  Immagine the implications of a PC or NPC being tried for willful
> destruction of RC Navy property when all he did was destroy a Virus machine.
> Can you say "riot?"
> 

Yeap I agree with that, of cause, in the future you could see development of 
virus equivalent of the Black Panthers, Black Muslum movement, or some less 
extreme groups demanding equal rights. All things which the RC may have to 
face in the future.

> 
> The quote uses the phrase "you Coalition People" which gives me the
> impression that the RQS commodore is talking to someone from the RC, not to
> Free Traders.  I don't see this the way you do.
> 
Either Free traders born in the RC with RC symathies, or a RC sponsered 
Trading vessel. I would believe that if you come from the RC area you would
classed as a "Coalition Person" even if you were not in the RCS, so the 
commodore could have been speaking to any one

> 
> I thin we could talk about a war in c1235 (NE35).  I know this is different
> from my original post.  I guess you guys convinced me that the time frame
> was too quick.
> 

I still don't see a war as being an all out war, I see it more as the War 
between the Spanish and the  English in the reign of Elizabeth the First. 
Privateers operating in far flung areas away from either Spain or England.
Raid on ports in the new world. Very few large scale fleet battles as
they are very costly in terms of ships and supplies. And little or no 
action in either the Regency or the RC (or close to their respective borders).
I could see the Regency aiding the Empire of Solee (and I could see the Guild
making the most of the Chaos that would follow)

No real victory happens and a uneasy peace treaty would develop from that.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 02 Apr 96 18:12:19 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 645
Message-ID: <17790442@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

--- DAve wrote:
No real victory happens and a uneasy peace treaty would develop from that.

Dave
--- end of quoted material ---
The added bennies of fractured alliances, Peicmeal damage and the occasional
rogue unit also leads to a good amount of flexibilty. My vote is Dave's
position, FWIW.

-j

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 17:35:28 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960403003528.0068b97c@mail.usa.net>

At 01:30 am 4/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>As for stateroom sizes, I don't think that the 3.5m high deck model is 
>appropriate for drawing up plans. A 3.5m x 4m x 4m stateroom would seem very 
>strange (when was the last time you were in a cubic room?), more realistic
size 
>would be perhaps 2.4m x 4.8m x 4.8m. Even allowing for corridors, recreation 
>areas etc. there would still be a room maybe 3.5 - 4m each side, slightly 
>larger than the room I'm writing this in.

        The 3.5m isn't the ceiling height inside the room -- it also
includes the space _between_ the decks, so it's the distance from one floor
to the next:
   
     ----------------------------------------------------
  
  
   
                Deck B

  +  ----------------------------------------------------
  |   Floorspace -- bulkhead, plumbing, ventilation, etc.
  |  ----------------------------------------------------
  |
  |
  |
  3.5m          Deck A
  |
  +  ----------------------------------------------------
      Floorspace -- bulkhead, plumbing, ventilation, etc.
     ----------------------------------------------------


        I've always assumed the "floors" were airtight bulkheads, as well as
containing all the usual mechanical stuff needed for the life support,
power, comm, water, sewage, etc. I figure that takes 1m out of the height,
leaving the actual floor-to-ceiling at 2.5m.

>With regard to providing corridors for engineering, flight decks, etc. why not 
>assume, as with quarters that a certain percentage of the volume for 
>engineering is given over to crawlways and access corridors? It's probably 
>easier than adding more rules to FFS. If you want to add high levels of detail 
>to a design, the ship plans offer a good outlet for that kind of fine
attention 
>to detail. 

        I agree, to an extent. But the purpose of the discussion was to find
some way to better differentiate between the tradeoffs needed to design a
luxury liner, a tramp freighter, and a military vessel.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 646
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 647

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) DGP's Ref screen
	by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
  2) Re:  Nanotech
	by odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
  3) Megatraveller Referee's Manual, Page 80
	by "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodguy.goodnet.com>
  4) Re: Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
	by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  5) Re: tml646
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  6) Luxury Designs vs military and standard
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  7) FF&S Lite
	by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  8) Re: FF&S Lite
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  9) Re: RC/Regency Future
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
 10) Re: Stateroom size
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 96 22:49:53 EST
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: DGP's Ref screen
Message-ID: <199604030455.VAA24529@usr5.primenet.com>

Anyone know where I can get DGP's ref screen?


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:04:17 -0500
From: odysseus@inetnebr.com (Jeff Kazmierski)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  Nanotech
Message-ID: <199604030506.XAA22142@falcon.inetnebr.com>

---begin copy---
>For an interesting look at nanotech/nanomachines you should
>check out the movie Virtuosity.  An otherwise uninteresting
>movie that had some interesting ideas.  The Nanomechs kinda
>grew like a virus.  Also the Novel a Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor
>Vinge has an interesting sequence where a ships hull is being
>finished by a cloud of nanomachines.
>
>Tariq
>
>Its good to be back on the TML.
>
>Cheers,
>      Princess Simpson Rashid

You might also try Neal R. Stephenson's 'The Diamond Age'.

Jon
---end copy---

Agreed.  I just finished reading it, and highly recommend it.  Stephenson
tends to take the effects of technology to the "N'th" extreme, which
produces both amusing and frightening results.


                +
                -\        "I should'a taken that
                | |      /       left toin at Albuquoiqe."
                | |       _
       _        | |      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/_________odysseus@inetnebr.com
                                 PGP 2.6.2 Public Key available



------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:49:53 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodguy.goodnet.com>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Megatraveller Referee's Manual, Page 80
Message-ID: <199604030608.XAA02689@goodguy.goodnet.com>

Hello,

Somehow I wiped out a column of figures in the ship design 
pages on my Referee's Manual...it's a long story.

Most of it is legible...however, I'm looking for the Power 
Requirements under Step 3 Meson Screens (not Optimized) for UCP's A, 
B, C, D, E, & F.  They're at the top of the 2nd column on Page 80.

The columns are as below
UCP   TL   POWER   VOLUME   WT   MCR
A        16     --------     325              310    50
B        17     --------     375              340     60
C        18     --------     435              390     70
D       19     --------      485              460     80
E        20    --------       540              560     90
F        21    --------       595              640     100

If somebody could e-mail me the numbers in the power column, I'd be 
eternally grateful... :-)

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar (sdollar@goodnet.com)
Traveller Referee, Computer Geek, Flyers & Suns Fan 
"Not to say that the net is getting too commercial, but 
this tagline is for sale at an attractive monthly rate."
This tagline approved for crashing on Win(Lose) 95.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 06:04:42 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
Message-ID: <184@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

> Okay, please forgive my ignorance, as I am at work and can't reference 
> anything, but does the 3.5m figure include just open space or does it include 
> all the things between here and the 'next' level?  If the latter, then there 
> is probably a ceiling at around 2.4m, with the 1.1m in between the ceiling 
and 
> the floor of the deck above containing life support systems, power, lighting, 
> etc. -- iin other words, all the things that you would hide behind a false 
> ceiling.  Given the space constraints in a ship, 1.1m may be a bit excessive.
> 

Quite right, but the life support systems and other ducting should have their 
space deducted from the life support volume or engineering volume, not the size 
of the stateroom.

> Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
> Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
> someday agree with something I say.
> 
> 

-- 
Brendan O'Donovan


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:55:39 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: tml646
Message-ID:  <9604030955.aa03548@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>



"Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com> wrote:
>Okay, please forgive my ignorance, as I am at work and can't reference 
>anything, but does the 3.5m figure include just open space or does it include 
>all the things between here and the 'next' level? ... 

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
>        The 3.5m isn't the ceiling height inside the room -- it also
>includes the space _between_ the decks, so it's the distance from one floor
>to the next...

This worked in CT, but neither in MT or TNE. The volume of artificial gravity
and life support is not any longer counted against the volume of the
staterooms. Each deck would be 3.5m high, the stateroom somewhat less
(I assume 2.5m) but the 1m inbetween does not count against the volume of
the stateroom ! However, I draw large staterooms still 4x4m and 2x4m and
assign the remaining volume (16m^3 for large and 8m^3 for small staterooms)
to the corridors and recreation area. This would give me about 6m^2 of
additional area for each large and 3m^2 for each small stateroom.
    An other thing about the size of staterooms. We camped in a trailer
5m x 2m large with 4 persons (2 adult , 2 kids) and lived there for 3 weeks.
 It would've been possible to live there with 3 adults instead,
resulting in 3.3 m^3 or, in volume 7.3 m^3 (2.2m ceiling) per person.
We had a kitchen, toilet/washing room and storage for our clothing. The
space in a double occupancy small stateroom is twice that. I must admit
that we didn'nt spent most of the time in the trailer, but I think it 
is possible(if the people don't hate each other or are a trained military
crew) However, I think this is the absolute limit for non military ships,
if You don't want circumstances as on the "wet" ships in the 17th century.
    On space stations, an erea of about 50m^2 should be the minimum per 
person, resulting in about 12 disp tons per huge stateroom. This should also
be the limit for super luxury ships. (It includes med station and good
recreation facilities, with the stateroom itself being 9 disp tons or an
area of 6x6m, note that corridors are again bunus, each stateromm may
have about 14m^2 of hallways)
    A thing that is much more importend than the size of staterooms is
the size of crew stations. The 3.5m^3 are just rediculous. The space
per crew member in vehicles is rather in the 1.5m^3 range, and this is still
spacious. In a subcompact car the "crew station" is 0.7m wide, 1.2m high
and 1.3m long resulting in about 1m^3(and this is still a closed vehicle)
Note that the whole car (3.3x1.4x1.4) has a size of less than one half 
disp ton, space for 4 persons and over 200 litres of cargo space, 40KW
engine and total mass of 700kg. Don't try this with FF&S. 

Thomas Kathmann




       

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 02:07:01 -0900
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Luxury Designs vs military and standard
Message-ID: <v01540a00ad87f94dce75@[137.229.100.57]>

all the following should be noted as FWIW and IMNSHO... ;-)

I have always figured on the following standards for accomodations on
merchantmen:

Lg SR (Stateroom): Good for one senior officer (05+), two other officers,
one high passenger, or two mid passengers.

Sm SR, one company/working grade officer, or two ratings, or one chief, or
one (non-regency/3rd imp) Mid Passenger.

Bunk: One (very) junior rating, or one working passenger (in a pinch).


Luxurious vessels may draw more passengers, and have varying levels of
comfort, but the bonuses require successful marketing rolls:

For each of the following, add 1 level of luxury:
        For more stewards than needed (minimum 50% more)
        For each additional 1 displacement ton per LgSR (half-ton per SmSR)
        For each cost multiple (so double cost would be 1 level, tripple cost
                fittings would be plus 2 levels etc.)
        For extras (like a workout room, pool, etc) + 1 level maximum
        For well reputed crew (lots of happy passengers in the past, and the
                current world knows it). Earned only by good roleplaying.
        Has a medbay and MD.
        has ship's troops totalling 10% or more of total passenger capacity at
                mid passage rates (maximum +1 level).
        per additional multiple of the per person cost for supplies spent.

Each level can be used for one of the following:
        +1d3-1 HP (two levels get +1d6-1) with a maximum of double the base
                number of dice
        +1d6-1 MP (again, maximum of double the base number of dice)
        +25% to fare cost (but this imposes a DM-1 per +10% base cost to both
                HP and MP numbers)
        +10% chance per passenger of booking round trip (requires one or two
                weeklayover and willingness to come back immediately) at same
                cost, with a base of 0%.

Using the level requires a marketing roll.

Using 1-2 levels: Average, Cr1000*1d6.
Using 3-5 levels: Difficult, Cr1000*2d6
Using 6-9 levels: Formidable, Cr1000*3d6
Using 10+ levels: Impossible, Cr2000*3d6

+1 Diffmod if using all available levels.
+1 to skill per unused level beyond the first.

Also, DM+1 to the check for a hijacking attempt per level used. (Base is
18+ on 3d6). Yes, it's MORE likely that someone will try to hijack... Cause
the passengers will be more wealthy! (As well as the crew, from the
increased bookings).

I also allow advertising at discount rates to modify number of passengers:

For each 10% of reduction in base fare schedule, DM+1 to HP, and DM+1 for
MP, and DM+2 for low psg. Also, DM+1 to the hijacking attempt.


My players have used this, and seem to think it feels right, but comments
and additional playtest would be appreciated. It also explains why large
liners could fill their rooms: take what HP's they can get, have luxurious
fittings, better food, and extra stewards, and a route, good advertising,
and a known friendly crew, and you can get a really good fill of the SR's,
at significantly increased rates... but also note that you cannot accept
millitary passage coupons unless you accept them at their face values....
;-)


William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:01:47 +1000 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: FF&S Lite
Message-ID: <199604031301.XAA19400@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

> From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
> Subject: Re: FF&S Lite
>
> I just got an idea for the future of FF&S that might just make everyone
> happy(fat chance).
>
> I envision three books:
>
> 1.    Traveller Technology - FF&S Elite:  This book would be a carbon copy
> of the current FF&S, possibly a little more detailed, but definitely only
> using Trav universe technology.  Include detailed design sequences as well
> as side bars explaining future technology. (Alternate technology is already
> covered in the current FF&S.)  This book is for the major deep-in-it
> gearhead.  100-ton Starship Design Time: 1-2hrs.  Example:  A design
> sequence for Jump Drives explaining what the Hydrogen Fuel is used for and
> how alternate energy sources can be used.

Aha! But what *is* "Traveller Universe Technology" now? HePlar? Thruster
Plates? 100 ton minimum Starship size because of JDrive limitations? USL ships
being able to land on Terra-sized worlds with no atmosphere but not the same
sized world *with* atmosphere, even tho they have AGrav drives and can travel
at 40 mph?

I would suggest it is even more fruitless than it was before to argue about
FF&S Lite as we have no idea what Marc Miller is going to do re Traveller tech
and the changes that FF&S introduced. However, I would say that the signs that
are available ... restarting the JTAS from the last numbered issue
pre-Challenge and a few other hints do *not* sound too good for the chances of
anything like FF&S. *High Guard* style stuff *seems* more likely, on the whole.
But, hey, this is all idle speculation ... we won't really know until August
at the earliest!

Oh, and note that too much explanations for what has to be, basically, bullshit
technology, is what causes all the above (and many other) problems. It's
probably better not to give too much detail *unless* you have it both
playtested *and* nitpicked ... by guys like us on this list. That way we can
say, "hey, the USL rule doesn't make sense for these reasons" and the new
designers can rewrite the offending section(s) to remove any chance of misuse.
Unfortunately, seems damn all chance of that based on past experience! But
maybe Imperium Games are different!

> The other thing that would need to be considered would be the
> price/size/tech level issue.  A TL-12 type computer produced at TL-15 would
> be much cheaper and much smaller than a TL-12 computer produced at TL-12.  I
> know this is old material.

I (and presumably *everyone* on this - and the sister - list) have been
complaining about this for *years*. But this opens the whole can of worms -
such a TL/15 version of a TL/12 computer would be *cheaper* as well. And that
brings up the whole problem of the severely disfunctional tech-economy
relationship in Traveller.

Phil McGregor

> Subject: COACC plane names
>
>
> Hi,
>
> The thing that always annoyed me with COACC (the MT aircraft design rules)
> is the names of the planes.

So, instead of naming them after the enemy's cities, you name them (or many of
them) after the enemy's other stuff ... Colt, Oni, Altair, Luxor (one of his
towns), Mjollnir, Locust, Vampire etc!

Seems like the cure's no better than the disease. How about Vilani (or other)
*versions* of the same. Remember the XBoat Service's symbol ... the Poni (a six
or eight legged riding beast) ... so they could call it the (gag :-} ) "Poni
Express"?

Phil


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:59:11 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite
Message-ID: <9604031459.AA19460@Rt66.com>

reply to Phil's comments

> > 1.    Traveller Technology - FF&S Elite:  This book would be a carbon copy
> 
> Aha! But what *is* "Traveller Universe Technology" now? HePlar? Thruster
> Plates? 100 ton minimum Starship size because of JDrive limitations? USL ships
> being able to land on Terra-sized worlds with no atmosphere but not the same
> sized world *with* atmosphere, even tho they have AGrav drives and can travel
> at 40 mph?

The whole USL vs. large worlds with no atmospere isn't an FF&S type
issue, it's a worlrd generation issue.  Find me an earth sized world
with no atmospere and I'll eat it :-)  The only way I could picture one
would be *very* close to its sun in which case the problem of landing
might well be finding a non-molten spot.  Planets with any reasonable
mass will almost certainly have some atosphere, even if very thin.
 
> I would suggest it is even more fruitless than it was before to argue about
> FF&S Lite as we have no idea what Marc Miller is going to do re Traveller tech
> and the changes that FF&S introduced. However, I would say that the signs that
> are available ... restarting the JTAS from the last numbered issue
> pre-Challenge and a few other hints do *not* sound too good for the chances of
>anything like FF&S. *High Guard* style stuff *seems* more likely, on the whole.
> But, hey, this is all idle speculation ... we won't really know until August
> at the earliest!

More or less true, but the point of the post as I read it was as a
suggestion to the "powers that be" (Marc MIller, et al).  As such, it's
a basically sound idea.  HAving a HG type system does not negate the
possibility of a more detailed system.  If there is never a published
FF&S-like product, then all "new" systems added will either require MM
to have an in-house system for making them consistant, or they'll just
make stuff up.  It's important to add that they'll make an effort to
have the made up stuff be more or less in line with reality as they
understand it.

The latter case still means that somebody someplace has an idea, say, of
the maximum relative strength of meson weapons vs. lasers for a given
energy input.  Some of us would just like to have those guidelines so
that we can make up new stuff that is consistant across campaigns.

>Oh, and note that too much explanations for what has to be, basically, bullshit
> technology, is what causes all the above (and many other) problems. It's
> probably better not to give too much detail *unless* you have it both
> playtested *and* nitpicked ... by guys like us on this list. That way we can
 
True enough.  Grounding any detailed design rules a little doesn't bug
me.  And if I can punch a hole in a pirate at a long distance with a
tiny turret mounted laser weapon I wanna know how the hell it's focused
(or I don't, someone else will surely ask).

> > The other thing that would need to be considered would be the
> > price/size/tech level issue.  A TL-12 type computer produced at TL-15 would
> > be much cheaper and much smaller than a TL-12 computer produced at TL-12.  I
> > know this is old material.
> 
> I (and presumably *everyone* on this - and the sister - list) have been
> complaining about this for *years*. But this opens the whole can of worms -
> such a TL/15 version of a TL/12 computer would be *cheaper* as well. And that
> brings up the whole problem of the severely disfunctional tech-economy
> relationship in Traveller.

This would be really nice to see though.  *sigh*  MAybe just a table
with size/cost discounts per TL above TL first available.
 
-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:05:50 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: RC/Regency Future
Message-ID: <199604031705.LAA18877@osh1.datasync.com>

>From: David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
>
>> 
>> The quote uses the phrase "you Coalition People" which gives me the
>> impression that the RQS commodore is talking to someone from the RC, not to
>> Free Traders.  I don't see this the way you do.
>> 
>Either Free traders born in the RC with RC symathies, or a RC sponsered 
>Trading vessel. I would believe that if you come from the RC area you would
>classed as a "Coalition Person" even if you were not in the RCS, so the 
>commodore could have been speaking to any one

I guess this could be true, but I think that with the eagerness of both
governments to reconquer the Wilds, that they would seek each other out
quickly once these reports come in.  The Free Traders that would openly
share this type of information about RC/Virus agreements would not likely
agree with the RC policies.  I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.  :)

>> 
>> I thin we could talk about a war in c1235 (NE35).  I know this is different
>> from my original post.  I guess you guys convinced me that the time frame
>> was too quick.
>> 
>
>I still don't see a war as being an all out war, I see it more as the War 
>between the Spanish and the  English in the reign of Elizabeth the First. 
>Privateers operating in far flung areas away from either Spain or England.
>Raid on ports in the new world. Very few large scale fleet battles as
>they are very costly in terms of ships and supplies. And little or no 
>action in either the Regency or the RC (or close to their respective borders).
>I could see the Regency aiding the Empire of Solee (and I could see the Guild
>making the most of the Chaos that would follow)
>
>No real victory happens and a uneasy peace treaty would develop from that.
>

I agree, One thing that got lost in all the quoting & requoting on this
issue has lost the Black Curtain Society.  I think this would be the key
issue that united the two opponents.  I also see the guild as being slowly
diminished until it is little more that a small trading group.  The Empire
of Solee is a bit too far from the Regency to get much aid from them I
think, but I do agree that the war I have been refering to would be little
more than minor border skirmishes.  I see the threat of the Black Curtain
Society(BCS) arising as an adversary while portions of fleets are in route
to the border.  The war would be averted because of the mutual opponent in
the BCS.  After the BCS was defeated or at least diminished, an uneasy peace
would develop with the occasional "accidental" hostility (similar to the
US/USSR Cold War).


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:06:00 -0600
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Stateroom size
Message-ID: <199604031706.LAA18886@osh1.datasync.com>

>From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
>
>Am I the only person who thinks that by starflight tech levels there will be 
>virtual reality sufficiently sophisticated to overcome a lot of the 
>claustrophobia on board starships? I got to try a three million pound flight 
>simulator last year and that was impressive enough (no moving floor, it was
>a graphics demonstrator only, but people still lost their balance when I
banked 
>just because of the visual cues)

I agree that this would reduce the needed volume, but you still need some of
the volume to fit the VR equipment.


>As for stateroom sizes, I don't think that the 3.5m high deck model is 
>appropriate for drawing up plans. A 3.5m x 4m x 4m stateroom would seem very 
>strange (when was the last time you were in a cubic room?), more realistic
size 
>would be perhaps 2.4m x 4.8m x 4.8m. Even allowing for corridors, recreation 
>areas etc. there would still be a room maybe 3.5 - 4m each side, slightly 
>larger than the room I'm writing this in.

I have always had a problem with the 3.5m deck size.  Are we supposed to
believe that in the future they actually need more space between decks than
we need between floors now.  Some folks have mentioned using 1m decks and
2.5m rooms.  I like the idea of 2.5m rooms, but the 1m deck is a bit much.
I find it hard to believe that there is enough environmental and control
junk to fill up 3.3 ft of space between decks.  I usually draw designs with
2.5m from floor to floor.  This allows 2.2m(7.25 ft.) of room height and
0.3m(1.00 ft.) of height between decks.  Even at our low(comparatively) tech
level we can build airtight bulkheads on oceangoing vessels at less than 4
in.  What is it that takes up so much space in a Starship that you need 3.5
meters between decks?



>With regard to providing corridors for engineering, flight decks, etc. why not 
>assume, as with quarters that a certain percentage of the volume for 
>engineering is given over to crawlways and access corridors? It's probably 
>easier than adding more rules to FFS. If you want to add high levels of detail 
>to a design, the ship plans offer a good outlet for that kind of fine
attention 
>to detail. 

IMO, this is the only way to provide the halls and other areas needed to
make a ship useable.

My opinions FWIW.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 647
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 648

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  2) Re: Stateroom size
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  3) Quick Poll
	by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
  4) COACC names
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  5) Re: COACC names
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  6) Re: Quick Poll
	by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
  7) Sorry
	by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
  8) Re: Sorry
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  9) FF&S, 1st to 2nd Printing
	by "Andrew Wardell" <wardell@m1.sprynet.com>
 10) RICE Paper:  Dekha/Vincennes
	by Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
 11) Re: An observation from aside. 
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
 12) Re: An observation from aside.
	by Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 20:15:42 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Recreation areas and Stateroom sizes
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960404031542.00677970@mail.usa.net>

At 02:35 am 4/3/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Quite right, but the life support systems and other ducting should have their 
>space deducted from the life support volume or engineering volume, not the
size 
>of the stateroom.

        I disagree ... the "dedicated" life support volume is the actual
machinery, etc. required regardless of how many people are carried. The
closest "direct" link to the number of people supported by the life support
system is the number of staterooms, and I've always considered that only
part of the "stateroom volume" is actually the space available to the occupant.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 20:16:00 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Stateroom size
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960404031600.00672864@mail.usa.net>

At 12:07 pm 4/3/96 -0500, you wrote:
>What is it that takes up so much space in a Starship that you need 3.5
>meters between decks?

        This just came to me ... everybody is assuming the only passengers
on board ships will be 1.8m standard humans! What about taller aliens? What
about taller human races? Who says the human race overall won't have gotten
taller in the next 3000 years? Look at how much the average height has
changed in the last 100...
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 08:54:19 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
To: hiwg-list@fwe.com, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Quick Poll
Message-ID: <s1638e5b.085@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>

   I'm taking a survey of Traveller players (if you have already responded
via AOL, please disregard). Send your responses to my e-mail address
which is: hdhale@tasc.com .  I'll post the results here.  Don't worry, I
don't work for Imperium Games.

1) What game mechanics system do you currently use?

a) Traveller: The New Era
b) MegaTraveller
c) "classic" Traveller (the little black books numbered 1-8)
d) a modified form of the "classic" Traveller rules
e) some other system

2) What setting do you use? (if more than one, list all that apply)

a) The Reformation Coalition (TNE)
b) The Regency (TNE)
c) The Rebellion
d) The Spinward Marches (c. 1105 - 1116)
e) The Solomani Rim (c. 1105 - 1116)
f) Elsewhere in the Third Imperium not d) or e) (c. 1105 - 1116)
g) Other (specify)

3) As of this date, do you plan on purchasing Imperium Games' version
of Traveller?

a) Yes, as much Traveller material as they can produce.
b) Yes, but only those items that really interest me.
c) Maybe, but I'll want to hear and see much more about it.
d) No, it doesn't sound all that interesting or I'd rather stick with what I'm
currently using.
e) No, and I probably won't be buying any additional material regardless
of its source.

4) What year did you start playing Traveller?


Thanks!

--Harold




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Apr 96 11:00:04 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: COACC names
Message-ID: <9604041600.AA05448@chara.gsu.edu>

 
>> The thing that always annoyed me with COACC (the MT aircraft design rules)
>> is the names of the planes.

>So, instead of naming them after the enemy's cities, you name them (or many of
>them) after the enemy's other stuff ... Colt, Oni, Altair, Luxor (one of his
>towns), Mjollnir, Locust, Vampire etc!

>Seems like the cure's no better than the disease. How about Vilani (or other)
>*versions* of the same. Remember the XBoat Service's symbol ... the Poni (a six
>or eight legged riding beast) ... so they could call it the (gag :-} ) "Poni
>Express"?

>Phil

Well the Imperium speaks Galangic, which is related to English. 
I assume that the Imperium has words for  a small annoying bug that
eats alot, I don't know what it is so I called it a Locust.  Also
Solomani culture has had a huge impact on the Imperium, so some of its
myths and words will get into the vernaculur.

 I could have pulled out the Vilani word generator from Cogs & Dogs,
but I can barely pronounce most of the words that get generated, and
since they are just nonsense words, they have little impact on me when
I say them.  I can't even spell most of the Vilani names for things,
like the SDB, I never can remember how to spell its name.

It would be neat to name planes, or anything else for that matter,
after animals that have been created for Traveller, but most of them
have english names, like Beaked Monkey, or Tree Rat.  

Lewis

------------------------------

Date: 04 Apr 96 11:19:14 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: COACC names
Message-ID: <17874767@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

---it was written
 I could have pulled out the Vilani word generator from Cogs & Dogs,
--- end of quoted material ---
wots this? Cogs and Dogs? Software? hmm?

------------------------------

Date:          Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:43:22 MDT
From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Quick Poll
Message-ID: <22A09F62C28@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>

Date sent:      Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:55:11 -0500
Send reply to:  traveller@MPGN.COM
From:           "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
To:             Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject:        Quick Poll

1) What game mechanics system do you currently use?

a) Traveller: The New Era

2) What setting do you use? (if more than one, list all that apply)

a) The Reformation Coalition (TNE)

3) As of this date, do you plan on purchasing Imperium Games' version
of Traveller?

a) Yes, as much Traveller material as they can produce.

4) What year did you start playing Traveller?

That depends, technically, I started on and off playing around with 
three little black books about 1990, but I only really started 
playing December '95. 
Thanks!

--Harold




"I may be synthetic, but I'm
not stupid." -Bishop
walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

Date:          Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:53:22 MDT
From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Sorry
Message-ID: <22B34EE206C@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>

Sorry about that, I meant to send it to the other guy.

"I may be synthetic, but I'm
not stupid." -Bishop
walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

Date: 04 Apr 96 13:05:51 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Sorry
Message-ID: <17879798@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

damn! and I had the tacnukes all warmed up and ready to fly....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:28:37 +0000
From: "Andrew Wardell" <wardell@m1.sprynet.com>
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: FF&S, 1st to 2nd Printing
Message-ID: <199604042227.OAA22890@m1.sprynet.com>

I recently downloaded a copy of FF&S errata, and in the beginning of 
the errata it mentions that it is for the second printing, and that 
those with the first printing need first to get Challenge #75 to 
upgrade.

Well (you guessed it), I have the first printing, and I find it 
rather unlikely GDW is going to restart its business just so that I 
can get a back issue of Challenge.  So...

If anyone has Challenge #75, could you email me the high points of 
the article?  Or is there a web site where this has already been 
stored?  (I'm primarily interested in design sequence changes).

I'm a good deal of the way through a Ship Design Spreadsheet, and I 
don't care to find out that a large chunk of my work will be useless. 
(Unless Imperium Games version is significantly superior, I probably 
won't bother with it.)


Andrew Wardell

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 15:55:13 -0800
From: Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RICE Paper:  Dekha/Vincennes
Message-ID: <16462ba0@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

Hey, remember these?  Yeah, I know, we're supposed to write about cultural stuff
instead of planets now, but I wrote this one up for my own campaign, so I 
thought I'd share it with y'all.  Comments welcome.


Dekha (Vincennes: Deneb/1128)  
A100A9A-F  S Hi In Na Va  510 Re F3 V M6 V
G=0.128 Density=1.06 Day=18:39:18.5; Year=56d 18:48:3.82 (3y 216d 18:15:13.6*) 
Atm=0.00, Weather Control
Temp= -78.97 degrees (orbital ecc= +/- 10.5 degrees) (3/lat +9 to -21) (season 
+16.8 to -28, 4.07/lat)
Daily temp range: 213.55
Radioactives, Crystals; Metals, Non-Metals; Parts, Consumables, Weapons; 
Software, Documents
Conservative/Indifferent, Unaggressive/Militant, Discordant/Aloof Legal A-CCE99 
Tech F8-FEFFF-FFEF-FF-G

* Represents the companion star's orbit around the primary.

Unless you visit Dekha system, you may be unaware that the Dekha may not really 
be a "planet" at all.  Traders who visit the system for the first time are 
usually quite taken aback upon discovering this.  It's the system's most 
well-guarded secret.  In fact, few citizens of Dekha will even admit that it 
might be true.  Even mentioning the idea will most likely be met with scoffs and
derision: "Who told you that?  Heh heh!  Of course Dekha's a planet!  What do 
you think it is, an asteroid?"

In actuality, Dekha is thought by most authorities to be the largest (by far) 
planetoid in the Naglee Belt.  The Naglee Belt is in close orbit of Naglee, the 
Dekha system's companion star, which is located in the habitable orbit of 
Azurite, the system's primary star.  Dekha's surface is virtually covered with 
impact craters, the result of its extreme orbital eccentricity.  As Dekha has 
trudged along on its orbit for the past several billion years, it has collided 
with millions of smaller planetoids in the belt.  It has been theorized that 
Dekha was stricken by a rather large asteroid, approximately 8 km in diameter, 
about 50 million years ago, knocking it into its current orbit.  Dekha's extreme
elliptical orbit carries the planet to almost the midpoint of the predominate 
asteroid belt at its orbital perigee and at its apogee to the inner extremes of 
Azurite's habitable zone.

The opposition to the "Collisionists" believes that Dekha is a captured planet. 
Its extreme elliptical orbit lends itself to this theory, but Collisionists 
believe that if Dekha had been captured, it would have been by the larger, more 
dense Azurite.  They argue that Naglee could not possibly have acquired Dekha 
since Azurite is within 3 AU.

Dekha's scarred surface is about 90 percent covered by manmade constructions, 
concealing almost all of its cratered surface from the view of visiting 
starships.  Some of the larger craters have been covered in sealed environments 
and terraformed into lush valleys and parklands for recreational use by the 
planet's inhabitants.

The planet features some 316 arcologies, which house an average of 150 million 
people each.  The remaining inhabitants of the system live either in Naglee Belt
facilities or in one of the two dozen Dekhan orbital facilities.  A small number
of people live on Journey, the system's only outer-zone planet, but all are 
members of the RISS or RQS and none are permanent residents of the system.  
Considering the frequency with which rogue planetoids approach Dekha, one would 
think living there a risky proposition at best.  However, Dekha's extensive 
COACC Sensor System does an excellent job of ferreting out threats from 
wandering planetoids and pinpointing their location for hundreds of laser, 
particle accelerator and meson bays to promptly dispatch the objects before they
can cause any damage.

At Dekha's closest approach to Azurite, massive solar collectors are deployed 
from dedicated facilities on the planet's surface to extract as much stellar 
energy from the star as possible.  Because of Dekha's particularly inhospitable 
environment, Dekhans need to take every opportunity they can to acquire and 
conserve energy and other valuable resources.  This is just one of many ways it 
is done.

The system was settled in the late 280s predominantly by belters who wanted to 
exploit the mineral resources of the Naglee Belt.  Mostly late arrivals to the 
frontier, many of these belters were unable to get adequate prospecting rights 
in the richer Liran, Starn and Deneb belts.  

The system didn't really enjoy much of a population boom until 688, when GsbAG 
set up its first shipyard in the system, primarily for use by the IISS to 
construct scout/couriers and survey ships.  By the early 700s, the shipyards had
become Dekha's largest economic power, having broken into the trader and 
freighter market.  GsbAG continuously funneled resources into the Dekha yards 
until it was the largest and most prosperous yard between Deneb and Mora.
In 722, it was discovered that Dekha itself was a rich source of radioactives 
and crystals.  As the riches available in the Naglee Belt began to deplete, the 
surface of Dekha provided new opportunities for belters and miners. 

The population of the planet swelled to over 8 billion within the next two 
decades as Dekha's immense shipyards and mining industries enjoyed the largest 
economic boom in their history.  It was during this era that Dekha's current 
government took shape.  Dekha is governed by an elite core of political 
councils.  While technically a two-party system, the ruling party of Dekha has 
been the Orbital Party for the past three centuries.  The Orbital Party got its 
name from the fact that most of its officers were drawn from the ranks of 
corporations that operated self-sufficient orbital complexes, many of whom never
set foot on Dekhan terra firma in their entire lives.  The Orbitals had a great 
deal more experience interfacing with the interstellar community since Dekha 
itself has never presented much of an appeal to tourists or traders. The 
successful economic track records of the Orbitals and the perception that they 
were more cosmopolitan appealed to the masses on Dekha, whose lives had too long
been subjected to Dekha's topsy-turvy boom/depression cycles.

The minority party is the New Party, formed predominantly of old-money Dekhan 
families whose estates lay on the vaccuum wastelands of the planet.  The New 
Party has traditionally drawn its constituents from the rather large working 
class of the planet, but has fallen on lean times after losing touch with its 
supporters.

Dekha's prosperous shipbuilding industry makes it a power to be reckoned with in
Regency affairs.  Specializing in military (RISS, RQS) and commercial (traders 
and freighters) designs, Dekha maintains a breakneck industrial pace, the envy 
of many competitors Regencywide.  The Industrial Affairs Council, chaired by the
Minister of Industry, is the planet's most powerful political force.  The 
chairman is often the invited guest of the First Regent himself to meetings of 
industrial portent.

The current chairman is Laslo Ptolemy, former GsbAG Deneb Sector Division chief 
executive officer.  Ptolemy's modus operandi of late has been to acquire 
research and development funding for Dekha's faltering computer industry. 
GsbAG's success in the system has spawned thousands of smaller entrepreneurial 
shipyards which specialize in hitting the niche markets.  Currently, several 
such yards have been in the business of constructing mercenary ships.  As the 
opening of the frontier approaches, the need for professional soldiers has 
increased.  Enterprising Dekha does not intend to watch such an opportunity go 
by.

While the resources of Dekha and the Naglee Belt have not yet been depleted, 
they are limited and strikes occur on a rather inconsistent basis.  As a result,
the economy of the system has by necessity become heavily dependent on trade.  
The system's immense manufacturing industries draw upon the resources of several
neighboring star systems.

The Dekhan people consist more or less of two divergent groups: obscenely rich 
and borderline impoverished.  The rich control the orbital starports and 
manufacturing facilities as well as the largest ground- and belt-based mines and
industrial centers.  The majority of the population works in these facilities, 
living rather dismal, uninspired lives.  Dekhans are rather astrographically 
isolated due to their economic limitations.  For the most part, the average 
Dekhan citizen doesn't see himself as a member of an interstellar community.  
Most are slaves to the system, bound to the planet by an industrial aristocracy 
that calls all the shots. 

Most Dekhans partake in some form of sport or other entertainment in the 
planet's subterranean metropolises and terraformed park reserves.  All forms of 
entertainment are available as an opiate for people who are otherwise 
preoccupied with the daily routine of laboring away in a factory or mine.  The 
government allows its citizens to roam freely and generally play as they will, 
but infractions of the planet's criminal laws is a definite taboo.  Punishment 
for committing such crimes is extreme and quick.

Dekha's police force is borderline paramilitary and has a fair amount of 
autonomy in enforcing the law.  Travellers beware, visitors to Dekha are 
subjected to the same laws as Dekhan citizens.  The police forces of the planet 
are slightly above average in quality when compared to those of other Regency 
worlds, though recently several corruption scandals have been uncovered by the 
media.

Because Dekha is such a small world, and it is literally covered with manmade 
constructions, the planet resembles a single urban sprawl more than a collection
of cities.  As such, Dekhans have come to recognize certain "turfs," "regions" 
or "territories" rather than cities, per se.  One of the better known turfs is 
Be-Esdee, a phonetic spelling of the acronym, BSD, which stands for "bonded 
super-dense."  Citizens of this region are, of course, employed in the 
manufacture of the high-tech metal, predominantly used for starships, small 
craft and military vehicles and armor.  Crunchtown, located in Dekha's northern 
hemisphere, services the largest core of mining industries on the planet.  
Lanthopolis Down, counterpart of Lanthopolis Orbital, is the planet's most 
massive groundside shipbuilding center.

The citizens of each territory have developed diverse personalities and 
cultures.  Many groups are dominated by Regency religions.  The "Willie Belt," 
which overlaps several Dekhan territories, the home of some 18 billion people, 
is a haven for members of Deneb's "To Will One Thing" church.  The Church of the
Stellar Divinity has pockets of followers spread throughout the planet as well. 
A schism has occurred between those who workship Naglee and those who worship 
Azurite as their primary deity.  

Dekhan territories generally range from rough and tumble to downright dangerous.
Most of the "nice neighborhoods" are in orbit of the planet itself, though a 
few Dekhan aristocrats (most of whom are entrenched New Party politicos) are 
daring enough to have established estates on the ground.

Dekha's identity is established more on what it does that what it is.  The 
system and its people are for the most part cogs in an impersonal industrial 
machine.  While wealthy Dekhans are prideful of their accomplishments, even they
cannot deny that life for the common man on Dekha leaves something to be 
desired...though few would venture to admit it in public.

MISCELLANEOUS NOTES AND SYSTEM DATA
Molten core; mass=.002; axial tilt=28 degrees; orbital eccentricity=0.35 (very 
extreme!); seismic stress factor=1; rotation-luminosity factor=0.648; daytime 
effects=+6.04/hr; nighttime effects= -16.09/hr; binary star effects= +1.04 
luminosity addition at closest separation; +0.98 luminosity addition at farthest
separation; total world population: 55.2 billion; representative 
authority=Several Councils; 2-way division of authority (Executive/Judicial; 
other=Legislative in the form of Several Councils)

Planetoid belt notation: 100m/10km, n-20 m-30 c-50, 0.1 AU)

Dekha System Details
Orbit       Name         UPP          Remarks
Primary     Azurite      F3 V
1-4         (Empty Orbit) 

Companion*  Naglee       M6 V
0           Naglee Belt  F000868-E    As Va Sc
0-1         Dekha        A100A9A-F  S Hi In Na Va

6           (Empty Orbit)
7           Journey      G73226B-E    Sc

* Companion star is in Orbit 5 of Primary.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:13:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>,
Subject: Re: An observation from aside. 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960404190351.17280A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.  
I was just reading the comments by Paragon369 (name?) and Joe Walsh 
in the last digest.  After all the criticisms flying around this list about 
Traveller's systems, alledged lack of playtesting, alledged historical 
inconsistencies, and so on, I was beginning to wonder if anyone around 
here actually _likes_ the game. It's nice to finally see a few people 
expressing a love of the game.  I add my voice to theirs.

Happy Travellin',
Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 16:32:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: An observation from aside.
Message-ID: <01I35ERV9YEQ8WWICD@POMONA.EDU>

     I'll be one the first to admit that I didn't particularly like TNE.  Sure
it had some good bits, but for me it had nowhere near the quality, style, or 
even intrinsic interest of "real" Traveller.  If I wasn't already a fan I would
have had no interest in this game whatsoever.
     In theory I love MegaTraveller, after all it's what got me hooked on the
game in the first place, but I'm also not so blind that I can't see what an
utter mess most of the rules were, even with the errata.
     Classic Traveller, as presented in "The Traveller Book" plus appropriate
add-ons (Books 4+, Azhanti High Lightning, etc), however, is by my reckoning
one of the very few all-time great gaming environments.  Sure, by "modern"
standards the rules look clunky and outdated, various people have pointed out
scientific and logical inconsistencies, and so forth, but for the time in which
it was published (late 70s through mid 80s) it was light years ahead of the
competetion and still compares favorably to the later iterations.
     Remember, just because we're fans doesn't mean we can't dislike certain
parts of the game and point out what we see as wrong turns being taken by those
who are at the helm-- if we don't, who will?

Trent Smith


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 648
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 649

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TL/Price issues
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  2) Re: An observation from aside.
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  3) I love Traveller!
	by Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
  4) Jobs of the Future
	by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  5) Re: I love Traveller!
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  6) Question...
	by Blaze@cris.com
  7) Re: Jobs of the Future
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:26:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/Price issues
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960404191330.21026C-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:01:47 +1000 (EST)
> From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: FF&S Lite
> Message-ID: <199604031301.XAA19400@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
[SNIP!]
> 
> > The other thing that would need to be considered would be the
> > price/size/tech level issue.  A TL-12 type computer produced at TL-15 would
> > be much cheaper and much smaller than a TL-12 computer produced at TL-12.  I
> > know this is old material.
> 
> I (and presumably *everyone* on this - and the sister - list) have been
> complaining about this for *years*. But this opens the whole can of worms -
> such a TL/15 version of a TL/12 computer would be *cheaper* as well. And that
> brings up the whole problem of the severely disfunctional tech-economy
> relationship in Traveller.
> 
> Phil McGregor

	Actually, there was an article on this subject in one of the 
earliest JTAS issues, reprinted in Best of the JTAS #1.  The article, 
written by Frank Chadwick and titled, "Trade and Commerce," proposes a 
system of price differences based upon the tech level and starport type 
of the world the item is found on.
	An excerpt from the article:
	"For example, a player wishes to purchase a map box on a tech 6 
world.  The base price of a map box is Cr 2500 (Traveller, Book 4, 
Mercenary, p 42) and it can be produced on worlds with a tech level of 9 
or higher.  To obtain the price of the map box on a tech 6 world, convert 
the base price from local currency to Imperials at its point of 
production.  Consulting the table, a tech 9 world with type A starport 
has an exchange rate of .7 credits per Imperial, thus making the price of 
th map box Cr 1750 (Imperial).  The player is on a tech 6 world with a 
class D starport, which has an exchange rate of .40 credits per 
Imperial.  Dividing 1750 by .40, the player discovers that the local 
price for the item is Cr 4375."

	The system really is sensible, and I believe it solves your price 
concerns.  Best of the JTAS issues are not hard to come by - I 
recommend you get this issue if you do not already own it.  
	Concerns over size, however, are not solved by it.  But, perhaps 
you can come up with solutions for that portion.

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:23:21 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: An observation from aside.
Message-ID: <9604050123.AA20444@Rt66.com>

 
> I was just reading the comments by Paragon369 (name?) and Joe Walsh 
> in the last digest.  After all the criticisms flying around this list about 
> Traveller's systems, alledged lack of playtesting, alledged historical 
> inconsistencies, and so on, I was beginning to wonder if anyone around 
> here actually _likes_ the game. It's nice to finally see a few people 
> expressing a love of the game.  I add my voice to theirs.

Well, if I didn't like it, I wouldn't bother trying to tweak it, I'd start 
from scratch.

As for playtesting, etc., I think that those comments prove one's like
for traveller, not one's dislike.  I think that many people who bitch
about the lack of playtesting apparent in TNE are mad because the powers
that be (er, _were_, I guess :-) seem to like the product less than we do!

Just my 2Cr worth.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 20:28:01 -0800
From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: I love Traveller!
Message-ID: <3164A151.1ED0@concentric.net>

Responding to Charles Collin:

>>After all the criticisms flying around this list about
Traveller's systems, alledged lack of playtesting, alledged historical
inconsistencies, and so on, I was beginning to wonder if anyone around
here actually _likes_ the game. It's nice to finally see a few people
expressing a love of the game.<<

You're darn right!

I've played CT, MT and TNE since 1980, and I've loved and enjoyed every 
incarnation of the game.  Didn't much like the RC setting for TNE, so 
I'm doing a Regency campaign.  If anything, enjoyment of the game has 
actually _grown_ for me and the five players in my group.

The five guys I play with are adamantly against converting away from TNE 
rules as they believe they are the best yet.  I had an open mind to the 
whole thing, but as a responsible referee, I have to consider the will 
of the masses! <g>  Looking forward to Imperium Games' background 
material even if I don't regress to their modified CT rules.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:10:18 +1000 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Jobs of the Future
Message-ID: <199604051310.XAA10958@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

Just something to get the pot boiling (perhaps) - tho no flame wars!

We were talking in the staffroom at school the other day and, basically, were
talking over some of the more recent changes that our glorious leaders have
applied to us ... and which we don't think are such a wonderful idea. However,
that's neither here nor there ... one of the "expert" consultants the school
hired to convince us with razzle dazzle came up with this gem (all too common
these days) -

The children we teach now will change jobs at least three times in their
working lives, and will be working at jobs that have not even been invented yet

At the time I thought, "what a load of garbage" ... but, hey, I like an easy
life just like most people, and arguing against the "wave of the future" (or
what our beloved leadership have *decided* is the "wave of the future") is
*not* something that I bother to do very often. Pick battles you can win, I
say.

Anyhow, how is this related to Traveller?

Well, the statement is, at best, dubious ... I'll tell you right now, that most
people (kids) I teach now are going to do the same job for most, and probably
all, of their working lives, just as they do now. There'll still be plumbers,
carpenters, office workers, lawyers, doctors etc. ... at least in the next
couple of generations. As for the "jobs that haven't been invented yet" ...
well, that's a bit more believable ... but I reckon it may be on shaky ground
as well ... sure, new technologies give rise to some new jobs, and result in
others being rendered obsolete ... but how many people will end up doing those
jobs, and will they really be "new" or simply "new ways of doing the same old
things"?

Like, for example, the introduction of the mouldboard plough, horse collar, and
three field rotation system revolutionised agriculture in the Middle Ages. But
there were still farmers ... sure they were using tech that hadn't been around
when they were young, but, so what? More *productive* farmers, sure.

Anyway, think about this ... in the 53rd Century (or whatever ... I haven't
got my Referee's Comapnion handy, <grin>), what sort of jobs will people be
doing? What sort of jobs will be obsolete? What "new" jobs will exist.

Obviously (I think it's obvious, anyway) there'll be (relatively speaking)
almost no-one working in "heavy industry" anymore ... as it'll be even more
heavily roboticised than it is now. So, more people will be working in service
industries ... but a lot of that can be robot assisted as well ... so there
is bound to be some sort of new careers that people will be able to follow.

One thing that I can think of, very retro, is that with a highly mechanised
and roboticised society, there may well be a *big* market for personal servants
- just to show that you are filthy rich enough to afford them!

Information workers? Well, if you allow for the increasingly sophisticated
computers that even the crappy tech of Traveller allows for, then there may
not be the jobs in that area that we might think! Of course, if you think about
it, "information worker" is merely a different way of saying "office worker"
or, if you get down to tin-tacks, a "clerk".

Plumbers? Yep! Carpenters? Yes, again, for the prestige value of having
human-made work rather than robotically produced stuff. Chefs? yes!

So, what are *your* ideas? I'd be interested to hear!

Phil McGregor


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:21:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: I love Traveller!
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960405081920.3196B-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Thu, 4 Apr 1996, Christopher Griffen wrote:

> You're darn right!
> 
> I've played CT, MT and TNE since 1980, and I've loved and enjoyed every 
> incarnation of the game.  Didn't much like the RC setting for TNE, so 
> I'm doing a Regency campaign.  If anything, enjoyment of the game has 
> actually _grown_ for me and the five players in my group.
> 
> The five guys I play with are adamantly against converting away from TNE 
> rules as they believe they are the best yet.  I had an open mind to the 
> whole thing, but as a responsible referee, I have to consider the will 
> of the masses! <g>  Looking forward to Imperium Games' background 
> material even if I don't regress to their modified CT rules.
> 

	This is going to be interesting.  After the new Traveller comes 
out, we will have four different systems under which people will be 
playing, yet all will be playing Traveller.  Are we going to split up the 
mailing lists into four different ones?  Will the new Traveller be served 
under the XBoat one (since it is most like CT), or under the Traveller ML 
(since this will be the newest incarnation of the game, replacing TNE)?
	And are we all going to get along?!?! :)

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 16:41:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Blaze@cris.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Question...
Message-ID: <9604052141.AA17564@voyager.cris.com>

Hello all,

  I'm new to the Traveller World.  Actually, I've never even played.  I
saw "Traveller:The New Era" in a hobby store the other day.  It looked
interesting, so after I got home I did a quick net search for Traveller
related stuff (I love the 'Net).  I found lots of stuff.  
  I see that GDW is no longer doing Traveller and it sounds like 
Far Future (did I remember that right?) is taking that back.  I also
seen reference to a "New" Traveller.  My question is (and of course this
is an opinion question - so I'll get lots of different answers):
   Should I buy TNE (and FFS) or wait for the new system?
   When is the new system due out?  When will it really be out?

Thanks,

Blaze

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:45:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Jobs of the Future
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960405154027.22097B-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, Phillip McGregor wrote:


> One thing that I can think of, very retro, is that with a highly mechanised
> and roboticised society, there may well be a *big* market for personal servants
> - just to show that you are filthy rich enough to afford them!

	There will be some of this, but each job type will have only a 
limited number of positions available due to a very limited demand.  
Hand-dipped candles are still available in our society, for instance, but 
the number of companies producing them is dwarfed by the number of 
companies using automation.  Have you seen a hand-made shoe lately?  Not 
many buy clothing that is made without any aid of automation, either.
	All of these things would be defintely niche markets.

> Information workers? Well, if you allow for the increasingly sophisticated
> computers that even the crappy tech of Traveller allows for, then there may
> not be the jobs in that area that we might think! Of course, if you think about
> it, "information worker" is merely a different way of saying "office worker"
> or, if you get down to tin-tacks, a "clerk".
> 
> Plumbers? Yep! Carpenters? Yes, again, for the prestige value of having
> human-made work rather than robotically produced stuff. Chefs? yes!
> 
> So, what are *your* ideas? I'd be interested to hear!

	See above regarding the "retro" jobs.  Regarding new jobs that 
may be created, from my experience in role-playing the traveller 
universe, I'd say there are a lot of people in mercenary jobs. <grin>
	
-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 649
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 650

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) "New" Traveller Mailing List
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  2) New Era High Guard
	by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
  3) Re: digest 647
	by markn@nordstrand.com
  4) Re: TRAVELLER digest 649
	by Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
  5) New Era or Newer
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 21:04:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>
Subject: "New" Traveller Mailing List
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960405204824.22429C-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.
Joe Walsh brought up something interesting in the last digest: what are 
we going to do with the mailing list when "New Traveller" comes out?  I 
would say that this depends on who is planning to buy/play the new 
release.  

If, like me, most of the xboaters plan to buy and convert to NT (barring
the possibility that it is a completely screwed up mess), then I would
suggest one amalgamated list for CT/MT/NT (NT is for "New Traveller", you
saw the acronym here first :-), and one for TNE.  My reasoning is that the
new release is essentially "what MT should have been", and thus belong on 
the same list as MT. 

If, on the other hand, most of CT/MT players _don't_ want to convert to 
NT, then perhaps a third list would be in order.  

There is another possibility of course.  And that is that _everyone_ 
including CT, MT and TNE afficionadoes converts to NT.  Then we could 
have one big list.  ("You may say I'm a dreamer...")

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Harold's "Quick Poll" results 
turn up.

Happy Easter, fast well, and all that good stuff,
Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 20:22:39 EST
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: New Era High Guard
Message-ID: <199604060449.VAA25368@usr2.primenet.com>

I am about start refereeing a Pocket Empire Naval Game. Brilliant Lances is
limited due to its complexity. And Battle Rider, although sound, has quirks: 

Does not account for wear down damage. IE losing half your fuel. The random card
system is burdensome. Both systems treat critical damage wrong. Armor would
absorb some damage, the size of the ship would absorb damage to a far greater
extent. 

I would rate the ship's weapons and defenses by the amount of critical damage
they could inflict or absorb. The total damage a system could absorb would be
its mass square rooted, divided by ten. Or the square root of bl damage.

Also, lasers a base penetration of 1/10








------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 96 09:17 WET
From: markn@nordstrand.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: digest 647
Message-ID: <m0u5Yo1-000MIuC@Mufasa.AGN.NET>

> Seems like the cure's no better than the disease. How about Vilani (or other)
> *versions* of the same. Remember the XBoat Service's symbol ... the Poni (a 
six
> or eight legged riding beast) ... so they could call it the (gag :-} ) "Poni
> Express"?

hmm.  seems to me that the scout service _wanted_ to call it the 'pony 
express,'  but confused the terran pony with some other world's (whose
name eludes me, i can't think of every thing ;) poni....

man


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:08:58 -0400
From: Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 649
Message-ID: <199604061808.OAA02017@catbert.>


Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au> wrote:


>Well, the statement is, at best, dubious ... I'll tell you right now, that most
>people (kids) I teach now are going to do the same job for most, and probably
>all, of their working lives, just as they do now. There 'll still be plumbers,
>carpenters, office workers, lawyers, doctors etc. ... 

Your part of the world must have a marvelously stable economy.  I'd line to
discuss this with you, but it does not belong on TML.  Feel free to E-Mail.


>So, what are *your* ideas? I'd be interested to hear!

I suspect that, at least during the first period of colonization (the
Traveller universe appears to already be full, but I suspect that if we
manage to get out of the solar system we'll find things pretty empty) people
will be doing a lot of jobs we now think are obsolete.

Why?  Because (IMHO) the first colonies will be founded mostly by the
disenfranchised and dispossessed of earth, who are not going to be able to
afford major capital investments in the automated factories, farming, and
administration methods of earth.

That means that a lot of things will have to be done by human and animal
toil, and a lot of professions now in a decline (ferriers for instance) will
be able to return.

Also, many resource based industries are now dying.  The fishing industry is
dead in Canada, and even if it limps back to life it will be a shadow of its
former self.  Once asteroid mining becomes the rule, hard rock mining should
disappear as surly as nuclear fusion will finish off coal and oil (at least
for energy).

Will new colonies be able to afford asteroid mines day one, or will they
begin with planetary mining?  If a new colony can find edible recourses to
exploit they will certainly do so (perhaps even building a luxury market).
In the process a lot of jobs that can only be found in the history books of
a far future earth will be reborn in the colonies.

My .02 Interstellar Monetary Units, anyway.


Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 14:05:20 -0900
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: New Era or Newer
Message-ID: <v01540a00ad8ca4925db5@[137.229.100.54]>

>Hello all,
>
>  I'm new to the Traveller World.  Actually, I've never even played.  I
>saw "Traveller:The New Era" in a hobby store the other day.  It looked
>interesting, so after I got home I did a quick net search for Traveller
>related stuff (I love the 'Net).  I found lots of stuff.
[snip]
>   Should I buy TNE (and FFS) or wait for the new system?
>   When is the new system due out?  When will it really be out?
>

Well, Blaze, TNE and FF&S work well, but there has been a constant debate
over whether or not it "Feels" like traveller. Of the incarnations of
traveller, TNE is the most DIFFERENT from the rest. It does many things
differently, especially character generation and aging. It can be quite
fun, but it is set up for far bigger than life PC's, weapons have trouble
killing PC's (A fusion gun can hurt small starships, but a PC in Combat
Armour survived 4 hits from it, at point blank.)

The New edition (often referred to as T4) goes back to the old CGen and
Skill systems; making TNE useless for their product line without major
conversions. Every edition so far has been a process of forced conversions
for ships and vehicles, and the new one will probably be similar.

FF&S is nice for everything but personal weapons, as it has good design
sequences, but it can be overly complex. It also works only with TNE,
Twighlight:2000, Dark Conspiracy, and Caddy's & Dinos.... not with previous
editions of Traveller, and will probably be replaced with something a
little more accurate.

It boils down to something a friend of mine once said:

        "when I want to run epic campiagns, TNE is my system of choice; when I
        want to run realistic campaigns of traveller, I use MegaTraveller"
                -Richard Ian Ricker

Welcome to Traveller!

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 650
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 651

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) COGS & DOGS
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
  2) A New List? NO!
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
  3) IRIS Rules
	by igor@netins.net (Andrew Akins)
  4) UUCP job killed
	by kksys!root@kksys.com
  5) UUCP job killed
	by kksys!root@kksys.com
  6) Re: Traveller Versions
	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  7) Re: TL/Price issues
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 96 22:05:18 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: COGS & DOGS
Message-ID: <9604070305.AA17972@chara.gsu.edu>

Hi,
Jeffery Miller asked about Cogs & Dogs.

Its the TML nickname for Vilani & Vargr by Digest Group Publishing.
Vilani & Vargr h a system for creating Vilani words, by rolling
on a table.  It would be easy enough to convert to software,but
I don't know if anyone has done it.  I think on one of the web
sites there is a word generator for some languages.  But I can
not remember which site.

Lewis

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 96 22:25:26 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: A New List? NO!
Message-ID: <9604070325.AA18065@chara.gsu.edu>

Hi,

In the last few Xboat and TML Digests there have been some messages
about what we should do with the mailing lists when the new traveller
comes out.  I think we should keep it the same, and let
people discuss Travler 4, on both lists.  Alot of the discussion on 
both lists is not about rules, but about the Traveller universe, as all
of the rule sets use the same universe, albeit at different times, this
sort of discussion is useful to everbody. I started playing Traveller
with the Traveller Book back in 1981, but now I use the TNE rules, and
the RC setting, I like it, and I think it works well with my current
group of players. I still find X-boat to be interesting and useful.
Now with Traveller 4 trying to cover a variety of time periods starting
Miliue 0, and eventually getting to Miliue 1200 and beyond, it
would be a shame to further divide up Traveller fans.  After all
which ever rule set you use, its still Traveller.
Well enough rambling.
Lewis

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Apr 96 23:51:38 EST
From: igor@netins.net (Andrew Akins)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: IRIS Rules
Message-ID: <199604070556.XAA18159@ins2.netins.net>

Could someone out there tell me what JTAS or Challenge
has the rules and character generation stuff for IRIS?

Thanks
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins    | email: igor@netins.net                           |
| Igor Software   | www:                                             |
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed with the beauty that has touched mine.            |
|             -- Number Ten Ox, Bridge of Birds                      |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 96 11:24 CDT
From: kksys!root@kksys.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: UUCP job killed
Message-ID: <m0u5xGS-00055KC@kksys.skypoint.net>

Message from UUCP on kksys Sun Apr  7 11:24:31 1996

UUCP job
	lmta1G3x
for system
	lmt
requested by
	root
has been killed.
Could not be delivered for over ten days
The job was
	rmail lmt.mn.org!laserm.lmt.com!stevent
>From mpgn.com!traveller Sat Mar 23 12:44:34 1996 remote from kksys
Received: from Ambassador.MPGN.COM by kksys.skypoint.net with smtp
	(Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0u0YHO-0005A9a; Sat, 23 Mar 96 12:43 CST
Received: from  (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ambassador.MPGN.COM (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA27612; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:33:03 -0500
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:33:03 -0500
Message-Id: <199603231833.NAA27612@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>
Errors-To: traveller-request@MPGN.COM
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Originator: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: traveller@MPGN.COM
Precedence: bulk
From: traveller@MPGN.COM
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 635
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 635

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Baldur summary
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  2) My Take on RC papers
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  3) Re: Sleeping in Low Berths.
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  4) RC Worlds
	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 634
	by "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
  6) Re: Assorted Replies
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  7) Re:  TRAVELLER digest 634
	by "Kelly St.Clair" <kstclair@PEAK.ORG>
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 634
	by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  9) Is this thing on?
	by peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 15:08:09 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Baldur summary
Message-ID: <9603222008.AA10303@chara.gsu.edu>


Eamon sent this to me and asked me to forward it to the TML.

------- Forwarded Message

Return-Path: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Received: from v2.qub.ac.uk by Nzambi.qub.ac.uk with SMTP (PP);
          Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:40:16 +0000
Received: by v2.qub.ac.uk (MX V4.1 VAX) id 6; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:40:24 +0000
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:40:23 +0000
From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
To: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Message-Id: <0099FBAF.E02FADC0.6@v2.qub.ac.uk>
Subject: Baldur summary
Status: RO

Lewis,

	Here's my Baldur summary:



Baldur's government, though classed as a Feudal Technocracy, could be better
classed as just a Technocracy.

The Council of Science runs all of Baldur's resources vital to Baldur's 
development. A democratically elected assembly runs non-essential aspects
of planetary life, such as Tourism (;-) , Law Enforcement, etc. The assembly
can also raise points to be discussed by the Council of Science.

Many of L'Steich's Corporations survive in some form on Baldur. The largest
is the Hellenic Trade and Transport Corporation, which controls a large
slice of Baldur's merchant fleet. Ships include 2x 20,000 ton colonizer vessels
some Tukera Freighters, Frontier Transports, Bulk Carriers, and many Liners,
Subsidized Merchants, and Far Traders. Many ships were rated for J-3 and J-2
as it is impossible to make the Journey from L'Steich to it's former colonies
of Bestor and Baldur in a J-1 vessel (unless you want to arrive with little
maneuvering juice).

Baldur has access to a large number of vessels due to the fact that both it
and L'Steich had time to prepare for the onset of the virus. Many on L'Steich
evacuated to it's lower tech colony world when it became obvious that L'Steich
couldn't survive. Many evacuation ships didn't arrive, many that did limped 
into orbit, some could be brought up to operating standards and are used by 
Baldur today. Those that couldn't sit in the Mothball fleet, just above 
Geostationary orbit - most gutted by the Proctors for equipment to keep
Baldur alive through the collapse.

Their Starport is impressive. Though only C-Class, it had to handle the 
colonists who arrived in droves from L'Steich every year, and service the
vessels they came on. Half-Starport, half-colony, it's accomodations were
huge, designed to accomodate 100,000 people, and originally built at TL-9, it


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 96 11:24 CDT
From: kksys!root@kksys.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: UUCP job killed
Message-ID: <m0u5xGa-0001LHC@kksys.skypoint.net>

Message from UUCP on kksys Sun Apr  7 11:24:39 1996

UUCP job
	lmta1G4C
for system
	lmt
requested by
	root
has been killed.
Could not be delivered for over ten days
The job was
	rmail lmt.mn.org!laserm.lmt.com!stevent
>From mpgn.com!traveller Sun Mar 24 12:43:25 1996 remote from kksys
Received: from minuet.skypoint.net by kksys.skypoint.net with smtp
	(Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0u0ulB-0003b6a; Sun, 24 Mar 96 12:43 CST
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Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:35:42 -0500
Message-Id: <199603241835.NAA08707@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>
Errors-To: traveller-request@MPGN.COM
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Originator: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: traveller@MPGN.COM
Precedence: bulk
From: traveller@MPGN.COM
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 636
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 636

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 635
	by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
  2) Re: YKYBPTTMW:
	by jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
  3) Dead lists?
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  4) You know you've read the TML too long...
	by Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
  5) Re: Dead lists?
	by Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
  6) YKYBPTMT
	by AQLH90D@prodigy.com (MR JON G FULLER)
  7) Swimming Pool
	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 635
	by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 21:38 GMT
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 635
Message-ID: <memo.877999@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <199603231821.NAA27471@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>

  > From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net> 
  >  
  > 4). You go to a convention to run a Traveller game, and it takes a
  > hand truck to transport all your books 

Real Refs have everything memorised...

  > From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz 
  >  
  > Re : David C. Broussard 
  > > A US or Russian boomer might be the best example of what a traveller
  > > startship is like....besides even on a nuke, there is a fairly large
  > > common area (the Russian Typhoon class even has a swimming pool
  > > in it!) 
  >  
  > Yes, true; but if my memory of documentaries about Typhoon class
  > boomers is correct, we're talking about a pool the size of a spa pool

On a similar subject, there was a recent TV series about the history of
submarines. In the last episode, they asked a British SSBN captain how the
crew passed the time on patrol - apparently, his boat has a model railway
set up in the missile room, with the track running round the launch tubes!
Another has a Scalextric set, and I forget what the others have. Could be
nice and confusing for PCs to find something similar on an old SDB...


---===---
Andrew Boulton

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:47:07 -0500
From: jbogan@pipeline.com (John H Bogan)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: YKYBPTTMW:
Message-ID: <199603232147.QAA10998@pipe11.nyc.pipeline.com>

On Mar 22, 1996 13:34:51, 'traveller@mpgn.com' wrote: 
 
 
>You know you've been playing the game too long when: 
> 
> 
>5)      You are incapable of seeing a science-fiction movie without
adapting 
>it to Traveller. 
 
" It was the Third Impeium of Mankind ... When the Great War came 
upon us all"... 


------------------------------

Date: 07 Apr 1996 13:35:49 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Traveller Versions
Message-ID: <3731025886.103503872@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

>  I'm new to the Traveller World.  Actually, I've never even played.  I
>saw "Traveller:The New Era" in a hobby store the other day.  It looked
>interesting...
[snip]
>   Should I buy TNE (and FFS) or wait for the new system?
>   When is the new system due out?  When will it really be out?


I've played Traveller since it was first published.  Here's my take on the
different versions:

Classic Traveller (CT) will always have a warm place in my heart, but as a
game system I now dislike it.  My group (mainly engineers & scientists) had
to add so many house rules that it became cumbersome.  The wide-open universe
was a nice setting, though. 

MegaTraveller (MT) had a nicer set of rules (basically a compilation of CT
rules with a nice task system), but I never liked the Rebellion setting, so I
didn't use it.  The adventures were still nicely cinematic in scope, but the
constant background of war and destruction was depressing. 

Traveller: The New Era (TNE) represented a major shift.  The game mechanics
became grittier and more realistic (with the exception of PC survivability in
a firefight).  The adventure settings shrunk - players now save worlds or
ships, not entire empires.  

Traveller (T4) will apparently return to CT/MT rules.  The setting will be
the start of the Third Imperium, which could be closer to TNE in terms of
scale, without the pessimism inherited from MT.  (This is just speculation,
mind you.)  

I prefer to use the TNE rules, but I've simplified them down a bit and made
some judgement calls, and I still use some CT rules.  

I prefer the TNE character rules, which are mostly choice (instead of mostly
random).  I used to like random, but now I like playing a character that is
just what I wanted rather than someone else.  

For example, I don't do much combat but when I do I use _all_ the damage
rules, including shock & quick-kill - so my combat can be deadly.  (I also
treat NPCs the same a PCs.)  I _really_ like Brilliant Lances (the rules are
good but very poorly written) because earlier versions of space combat didn't
feel as realistic to me.  

I still use the CT trade rules, where each cargo has different
characteristics and pricing.  

I prefer mainly exploration and trade adventures, with a few espionage ones
thrown in for variety, so I haven't run most of the published adventures in
any system.  (They make great background material, though.)  Strangely, the
one I've most successfully run was in "Smash & Grab" (a set of TNE commando
adventures) - except that I ran it as a 'sneak & peek' instead.  

FFS is the best set of design rules yet, although it _does_ have its flaws.

I really liked the TNE version of Hivers and Ithklur (except for Dave's
humour).  More role-playing advice and less statistics than previous alien
books.  

My advice to you is to decide on the setting you'd rather play in, and choose
which game version you'll use depending on that decision.

For myself, I will probably still use Brilliant Lances, unless T4 contains a
better system.  (I heard rumours of a High Guard-style system, which I
_wouldn't_ use.)  Similarly, I will still use FFS (unless I like the new
system better).  I may even still use TNE rules in the new setting.  I will
almost certainly use the new setting.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:27:07 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/Price issues
Message-ID: <9604072227.AA09574@Rt66.com>

 
> 	Actually, there was an article on this subject in one of the 
> earliest JTAS issues, reprinted in Best of the JTAS #1.  The article, 
> written by Frank Chadwick and titled, "Trade and Commerce," proposes a 
> system of price differences based upon the tech level and starport type 
> of the world the item is found on.
> 	An excerpt from the article:
> 	"For example, a player wishes to purchase a map box on a tech 6 
> world.  The base price of a map box is Cr 2500 (Traveller, Book 4, 
> Mercenary, p 42) and it can be produced on worlds with a tech level of 9 
> or higher.  To obtain the price of the map box on a tech 6 world, convert 
> the base price from local currency to Imperials at its point of 
> production.  Consulting the table, a tech 9 world with type A starport 
> has an exchange rate of .7 credits per Imperial, thus making the price of 
> th map box Cr 1750 (Imperial).  The player is on a tech 6 world with a 
> class D starport, which has an exchange rate of .40 credits per 
> Imperial.  Dividing 1750 by .40, the player discovers that the local 
> price for the item is Cr 4375."
> 
> 	The system really is sensible, and I believe it solves your price 
> concerns.  Best of the JTAS issues are not hard to come by - I 
> recommend you get this issue if you do not already own it.  
> 	Concerns over size, however, are not solved by it.  But, perhaps 
> you can come up with solutions for that portion.

Actually, it's a bit goofy, IMO.  Look at the example above.  The item
lists for 2500Cr in Bk4.  On a TL15 world the map box costs 2500 Cr, on
the TL6 world mentioned, it costs 4375 *local* credits, but converting
to back to Imperial the price is 1750Cr!  The 1750Cr price is due to the
TL9 world of origin of the product.  Chadwick uses the table as an
_exchange rate_ so the only real changes in price are based on world of
origin TL of production.  If you assume that the listed price is in
Imperials at the TL listed...

He suggests that the higher priced goods that you have to buy on higher
TL worlds might be more reliable, but it seems odd that a calculator
that meets the same specs would cost *more* on a world many TLs higher
with reliability as the only improvement.  Hell, take a pistol as an
example: An automatic pistol costs 210Cr in Book1 at TL5.  Using the
JTAS table we'd get it costing 210Cr at TL15, and 21Cr at TL5 (in
Imperials---210*0.1)!

Why pay 10 times more for a technology that can't be improved all that
much?

You could use this table in a different way to some use, however.
Use the table, but assume any listed price/TL is the price for
manufacture in Imperial Credits at the TL mentioned.

In this case, using the example above, the map box is 2500Cr on the TL9
world of origin (use the TL that a given item is 1st available for
this, and assume the best possible starport).  If manufactured on a TL15 
world, the map box would cost 1750Cr (0.7*2500).  On the TL6 world the
imported price would be 6250Cr (2500/0.4).  All credits are standard
Imperials.  If the TL15 world didn't manufacture the map box locally
then it would be at least the price calculated for the world of origin,
plus transport and duties.  Different tables might be made for agro
goods, etc..

The autopistol would be 210Cr made on the "X" starport TL5 world (I'm
using Terra of old as an example here).  On a TL15 world it'd cost 94.5Cr
to manufacture assuming they were tooled up to make autopistols.  I
assume that it costs 210Cr on any TL5 world, regardless of starport, but
that you use the best starport on the table for the conversions between
TLs.

Doing things this way makes more sense to me.  High tech items will cost
more on the backwater world than the high TL world of origin due to
transport costs, duties, etc..

This would also be neat in that if you manufactured lower TL goods at a
higher TL facility, you would get a price break.  As you say,
volume/mass would be unchanged.  On electronic-type systems I might
allow volume to be traded with cost using the same numbers...

Many low-TL items wouldn't be made on high TL worlds though, so it
wouldn't be that easy to abuse (would Ford be making ground cars on a
TL15 world with few/no roads?  No.).

As an example, a Gazelle costs 224.44MCr in TNE (BL Tech. Booklet)
(I'll use TNE since it actually lists TL of the ship where Sup.7
doesn't).  This is the cost at a TL14 "A" starport.  At a TL15 "A"
starport it would be 213.22MCr (224.44*0.95).  

This would make a real market for lower tech ships, etc., made on high
tech worlds---they'd be much cheaper.  In the case of Traders, this is
important if you try to figure out how Free Traders ever make ends meet.
You'd have less capable ships, but they'd cost less.  A good trade for
merchants in safe places.
Muir?
 
Anybody else with that old JTAS have any comments on this?

-Merrick

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 651
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 652

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TL/Price issues
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  2) Traveller Word Generator
	by "Vaclav G. Ujcik" <102726.2151@compuserve.com>
  3) The "New Traveller" Mailing List
	by FKiesche3@aol.com
  4) Re: The "New Traveller" Mailing List
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  5) Re: [T648] RICE Papers
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  6) Re: The "New Traveller" Mailing List
	by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
  7) Still time to vote!
	by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
  8) Re: Tech/Price Differences
	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  9) Re: Tech/Price Differences
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:02:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/Price issues
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960407210037.14379A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> > 	An excerpt from the article:
> > 	"For example, a player wishes to purchase a map box on a tech 6 
> > world.  The base price of a map box is Cr 2500 (Traveller, Book 4, 
> > Mercenary, p 42) and it can be produced on worlds with a tech level of 9 
> > or higher.  To obtain the price of the map box on a tech 6 world, convert 
> > the base price from local currency to Imperials at its point of 
> > production.  Consulting the table, a tech 9 world with type A starport 
> > has an exchange rate of .7 credits per Imperial, thus making the price of 
> > th map box Cr 1750 (Imperial).  The player is on a tech 6 world with a 
> > class D starport, which has an exchange rate of .40 credits per 
> > Imperial.  Dividing 1750 by .40, the player discovers that the local 
> > price for the item is Cr 4375."
> > 
> > 	The system really is sensible, and I believe it solves your price 
> > concerns.  Best of the JTAS issues are not hard to come by - I 
> > recommend you get this issue if you do not already own it.  
> > 	Concerns over size, however, are not solved by it.  But, perhaps 
> > you can come up with solutions for that portion.
> 
> Actually, it's a bit goofy, IMO.  Look at the example above.  The item
> lists for 2500Cr in Bk4.  On a TL15 world the map box costs 2500 Cr, on
> the TL6 world mentioned, it costs 4375 *local* credits, but converting
> to back to Imperial the price is 1750Cr!  The 1750Cr price is due to the
> TL9 world of origin of the product.  Chadwick uses the table as an
> _exchange rate_ so the only real changes in price are based on world of
> origin TL of production.  If you assume that the listed price is in
> Imperials at the TL listed...

	Woops, you're right.  I was thinking of it in terms of your 
solution, even though it clearly states the exchange rate factor.  Drat.

> You could use this table in a different way to some use, however.
> Use the table, but assume any listed price/TL is the price for
> manufacture in Imperial Credits at the TL mentioned.

	Yes, that would be the way to use it, IMO as well.

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: 08 Apr 96 06:33:04 EDT
From: "Vaclav G. Ujcik" <102726.2151@compuserve.com>
To: Traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc: XBoat <xboat@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Traveller Word Generator
Message-ID: <960408103303_102726.2151_GHT41-1@CompuServe.COM>

Hi,

I've written a Traveller alien word generator for Windows 3.1 and above. It can
create Vilani, Aslan, Vargr, Droyne, and Zhodani words and save them to a file.
I'm looking for a good place to upload this for Traveller players. I'm fairly
novice at using the web and internet, so any help would be appreciated. Is there
anything special I need to know about uploading? Thanks in advance for any help.
				Jim Ujcik


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:26:42 -0400
From: FKiesche3@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: The "New Traveller" Mailing List
Message-ID: <960408082641_508221911@emout08.mail.aol.com>

Greetings All:

I would vote for one mailing list for all Traveller items. Why? Look at the
cross-currents of topics lately. There's a lot of spillover. I find myself
hoping from one mailing list to another to follow completely the threads on
population, TL's, teaching machines, etc.

Just my thought.

Thanks!

Fred Kiesche
(Knight of the Third Imperium)
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

Date: 08 Apr 96 08:41:21 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: The "New Traveller" Mailing List
Message-ID: <18040256@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

I too vote for one composite list. Only if NT is TOTALLY different(and
therefore, not really "Traveller") should there be a distinct seperation.

-j

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Apr 96 19:38:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T648] RICE Papers
Message-ID: <8BE249A.0100071440.uuout@execnet.com>


T::>Hey, remember these?  Yeah, I know, we're supposed to write about cultural
 ::>stuff
 ::>instead of planets now, but I wrote this one up for my own campaign, so I
 ::>thought I'd share it with y'all.  Comments welcome.

 Not "instead of".  "In addition to".  Imperial Culture is more
 than just the sum of the planetary cultures - but without the
 planetary cultures, there'd be no Imperial Culture to be more than
 their sum.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education


------------------------------

Date: Mon,  8 Apr 1996 08:42:11 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: The "New Traveller" Mailing List
Message-ID: <9604080842.AA11999@caw.intercon.com>

Regarding the discussion of the Traveller mailing lists, I have the following 
thoughts (worth what you paid for them):

1) I would like to see the _current_ lists change as follows:
   * 'xboat': same as current 'xboat'
   * 'tne': same as current 'traveller'
   * 'traveller': combined list -- one copy of messages sent to 'xboat' and
      'tne' get sent to people subscribed to the 'traveller' list

This would greatly benefit the large number of people who subscribe to both 
lists.  People who want to subscibe to both rather than the 'traveller' list 
(because, for example, they filter their 'xboat' and 'tne' mail into separate 
mailboxes) would still have that option.

Adding a new list would obviously greatly complicate this structure.

2) Regarding a list for the next version of Traveller, I suspect that the 
volume of traffic will be great enough as we get closer to release that such a 
list may be warranted.  On the other hand, it is still only April, so maybe 
that decision is best put off for at least another month.

3) I vote for 'T4' as the official abbreviation for the next version of 
Traveller. 'NT' sounds too much like Microsoft, and 'New Traveller' and 'The 
New Era' may be confusing to the incredibl;y huge horde of new Travller 
afficionados T4 will create.  <grin>  


Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 10:06:39 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
To: hiwg-list@fwe.com, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Still time to vote!
Message-ID: <s168e542.079@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>

   There is still time to vote in my poll.  For those of you who may have
missed it the first time around, or have a friend on Prodigy or
Compuserve that doesn't get TML or XBoat, *or* God forbid, doesn't have
Internet access <gasp!>  please pass this along to them.  You may
submit votes for the Internet challenged provided that you include their
name along with your post.  Please do not vote twice pretending to
be some imaginary playmate--you don't live in Chicago (residence of
Chicago, please substitute the word Cleveland for Chicago--residents
of Cleveland should note that the offense is intended, and when the
Browns starting playing American football again, it will be the privilege of
the Cincinnati Bengals to come up to your new stadium and kick your
butts--anyone who doesn't know a Bengal from an Aslan should ignore
everything that appears inside these parentheses).

   To those of you wondering why I say I'm not from Imperium Games,
the reason I say that is: I'm really not from Imperium Games, *and*, I
wanted to reassure those who may feel intiminidated about voting
(because you are afraid of ending up on a junk e-mail list, or being
black-listed because you don't like IG's plans for the future, or whatever)
that I don't have ulterior motives.

   PLEASE NOTE: THE POLLS OFFICIALLY CLOSE AT 10 AM EDT,
SUNDAY APRIL 14TH.  Results will be available the following week.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  I'm taking a survey of Traveller players (if you have already responded
via AOL, TML, XBoat, please disregard). Send your responses to my
e-mail address which is: hdhale@tasc.com .  I'll post the results here.
Don't worry, I don't work for Imperium Games.

1) What game mechanics system do you currently use?

a) Traveller: The New Era 
b) MegaTraveller 
c) "classic" Traveller (the little black books numbered 1-8) 
d) a modified form of the "classic" Traveller rules 
e) some other system

2) What setting do you use? (if more than one, list all that apply)

a) The Reformation Coalition (TNE) 
b) The Regency (TNE) 
c) The Rebellion 
d) The Spinward Marches (c. 1105 - 1116) 
e) The Solomani Rim (c. 1105 - 1116) 
f) Elsewhere in the Third Imperium not d) or e) (c. 1105 - 1116) 
g) Other (specify)

3) As of this date, do you plan on purchasing Imperium Games' version
of Traveller?

a) Yes, as much Traveller material as they can produce. 
b) Yes, but only those items that really interest me. 
c) Maybe, but I'll want to hear and see much more about it. 
d) No, it doesn't sound all that interesting or I'd rather stick with what I'm
currently using. 
e) No, and I probably won't be buying any additional material regardless
of its source.

4) What year did you start playing Traveller?


Thanks!

--Harold



------------------------------

Date: 08 Apr 1996 11:43:35 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Tech/Price Differences
Message-ID: <1762127870.108120219@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

Regarding Merrick's comments about higher tech goods being excessively
expensive:

I always _liked_ that part of the rules.  For one thing, it gave a reason for
trade.  A tech-15 world wouldn't bother making items that could be made
cheaper elsewhere.  Just look at the world economy now: a lot of low-tech
manufacturing jobs are moving offshore.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:15:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Tech/Price Differences
Message-ID: <9604081716.AA01083@Rt66.com>

 
> Regarding Merrick's comments about higher tech goods being excessively
> expensive:
> 
> I always _liked_ that part of the rules.  For one thing, it gave a reason for
> trade.  A tech-15 world wouldn't bother making items that could be made
> cheaper elsewhere.  Just look at the world economy now: a lot of low-tech
> manufacturing jobs are moving offshore.
 
Yeah, but those rules from Best of JTAS #1 mean that high tech goods are
cheaper on low tech worlds!  

the operative words in your comment are _low tech manufacturing_.  The
TL15 world could gear up to make low tech widgets, and ship them off
planet (everybody at home already has the widget) at a low margin, or
they could tool up for new technology that is still in demand on, and
off planet.  Since the tech is kinda new, the profit margins might be
higher.

-Merrick

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 652
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 653

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER word generator
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  2) RE: New Mailing list
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  3) Re: TRAVELLER digest 652
	by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  4) Re: New Mailing list
	by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
  5) Re: Sigh...splitting the list...NOT AGAIN!!!
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:03:11 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER word generator
Message-ID: <199604091303.IAA27247@osh1.datasync.com>

>From: "Vaclav G. Ujcik" <102726.2151@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Traveller Word Generator
>
>Hi,
>
>I've written a Traveller alien word generator for Windows 3.1 and above. It can
>create Vilani, Aslan, Vargr, Droyne, and Zhodani words and save them to a file.
>I'm looking for a good place to upload this for Traveller players. I'm fairly
>novice at using the web and internet, so any help would be appreciated. Is
there
>anything special I need to know about uploading? Thanks in advance for any
help.
>				Jim Ujcik
>

I'd be very interested in getting a copy of this program.  Let me know where
you put it and what you name it.

Paul  {tiger}



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:11:19 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: New Mailing list
Message-ID: <199604091311.IAA27457@osh1.datasync.com>

While everyone is putting in their request for the new mailing list
divisions, I though I'd add my thoughts.

If, as it seem so far, many of the members of the two lists are going to
"upgrade" to T4, then I would suggest two lists.

        CT/MT/TNE - A combination of the two current lists.  Mainly this
list would be for those few who refuse to upgrade and use one of the three
old rules systems.  Also this list would be for mileau's not yet covered by T4.

        Traveller - This list would be for anything covered by the new system.

Another worthy idea is to split the list up among time periods, like Rob
suggested, but we don't want to end up with 4 different lists.  At least not
until T4 attracts the droves of new travellers.  :)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 01:26 NZST
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 652
Message-ID: <m0u6dRE-0002lCC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

Anyone know where I can get a copy of a BinHex 4.0 converter ? Someone wants to 
send me a Traveller program in this format, and I don't seem to have the ability 
to decode it. Thanks. 
Simon.


------------------------------

Date: Tue,  9 Apr 1996 09:31:53 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New Mailing list
Message-ID: <9604090931.AA53211@caw.intercon.com>

Paul Walker suggested two mailing lists, one for CT/MT/TNE (which would be a 
combination of the two current lists), and a second list for T4.

While this has some merits, I don't think it addresses the reason why there 
are two lists currently.  I always thought the reason for two current lists 
was because the TNE was such a huge break (both in terms of background and 
game mechanics) that many people wanted nothing to do with it -- and, 
coversely, some TNE supporters wanted nothing to do with the xboat 
discussions.  If this is the case (and I think it is), I think a lot of people 
would be unhappy about combining the two now.

As I said in an earlier post, duplicate mail is one of the big concerns for 
me.  [Not that big, dup messages are just a little annoying, nothing more.]  
If the demographics don't quite break down as described above  -- if for 
example, the situation really is that TNEers like Xboat but not vice versa -- 
maybe one list could be a subset of the other,  e.g., subscribing to exboat 
gets you xboat; subscribing to TNE gets both xboat and TNE messages. 

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:51:15 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Sigh...splitting the list...NOT AGAIN!!!
Message-ID: <17557A2843@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

People,

	Having survived the rancor and flames that accompanied the 
original split, the occasional bursts of crossposted TNE/CT bashing; 
I suspect that it will require a new list, or at least (my 
preference) a single list with some coherent 'Subject:' scheme like

[TNE], [T4], [CT], [New Era], [Rebellion], [Antebellum], [Tech], 
[Economics], etc etc.  Yes I know that the classifications can 
multiply like rabbits, but it would be nice if everyone could hang 
together...

{SOAPBOX_MODE=TRUE}

	If everyone could just hang back a minute before posting, take a 
deep breath, and ask if what you're saying is contributing or fanning 
the flames.  THIS IS A GAME not a religion, and we don't need 
religious wars here, surely not if the latest release of Traveller is 
to be successful.  I think Marc has it right, in that all of the 
various incarnations of Traveller have a place in the cosmos.

	As long as we can remeber this, and not rise reflexively to 
flame-bait: 'TNE Sucks and caused GDW to go under...now I hope all you 
pathetic TNE'ers wither and die' 'Get with the program you
old fogeys..or get out of the way!' 

	What I'd dearly love to see is Traveller open up, so that a large
plurality of ideas can be discussed.  What bothers me when words
like 'canon' get bandied about are the dogmatic implications....this
is the 'One True Way to Play'.  That does no-one any good.  

{SOAPBOX_MODE=FALSE}

My 0.02 Imp Cr (worth 6.735 Balgornian dribbles at the official 
exchange rate)

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 653
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 654

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) change of address
	by AMNUSS@delphi.com
  2) Engineering crew
	by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
  3) Splitting the list? Why?
	by 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
  4) Re: Splitting the list? Why?
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  5) NT Mailing List Ideas and "NT" vs. "T4" acronyms.
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  6) Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  7) Re: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  8) BinHex
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  9) 
	by "Raul Max. Espinosa" <muz@redestb.es>
 10) ???????
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
 11) Re: TRAVELLER digest 653
	by Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 21:23:44 -0500 (EST)
From: AMNUSS@delphi.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: change of address
Message-ID: <01I3COT6F6889AN4MP@delphi.com>


Please change my address

   From: amnuss@delphi.com

   To: amnuss@aol.com

The delphi account will be gone within 2 weeks or sooner.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 96 20:56:28 EDT
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Engineering crew
Message-ID: <199604100209.TAA17869@usr6.primenet.com>

There was discussion a while back about engineering crew sizes. On complaint
about TNE ship is the large crew sizes. After much analysis, I have come to the
conclusion that the TNE formula is flawed.

Each Engineer can operate, maintain, and repair a set number of engine
components. The flaw is that if the engine outputs 4x more power, the complexity
will increase by 4x also. Not so, the number of engine components will increase,
but so will their size. 

So a 100mw power plant, having about 100 different components will require one
engineer. The 400mw power plant has 200 different components, these being 2x as
large, would need only 2 engineers.



To correct ships already built. find the square root of the required engineering
crew and multiply by the square root of the number of drives.
IE a 2x 4,000mw tl-12 fusion power plants, would need a crew of 13 not 93! 


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:32:23 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Splitting the list? Why?
Message-ID: <199604100232.WAA05653@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

  I think the wisest thing to do would be to leave the lists "as is" and
simply allow posts about the new version of the game to both lists. yes,
that means duplicate mail for those who subscribe to both. That's the price
we pay for not being able to get along.
   I was around back when the list split,too. What I saw was the TNE fans
being bashed continually by the CT crowd for daring to like the new game. I
defended TNE back then, but I will be the first to admit that I'm happy
we're going to a system compatible with 
CT and that all that will be left of TNE is the background (and even that
may undergo some changes. For instance, HEPlar's are, from what MM said in
this month's discussion on AOL, going away. That will change some things
about TNE's background and technology right there).
   Some TNE fans will no doubt be hacked off that I said that. All I can say
is that Marc Miller is the man. He created this game, and when he was
involved with it, it was a great game. Even as much as I liked TNE, when I
hear what's planned, it pales in comparison. The new TRAVELLER will be the
best TRAVELLER. After a few months, maybe we won't even need two lists anymore.
                                   Allen Shock


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:11:16 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Splitting the list? Why?
Message-ID: <9604100411.AA20227@Rt66.com>

 
> CT and that all that will be left of TNE is the background (and even that
> may undergo some changes. For instance, HEPlar's are, from what MM said in
> this month's discussion on AOL, going away. That will change some things
> about TNE's background and technology right there).
>    Some TNE fans will no doubt be hacked off that I said that. All I can say
> is that Marc Miller is the man. He created this game, and when he was
> involved with it, it was a great game. Even as much as I liked TNE, when I
> hear what's planned, it pales in comparison. The new TRAVELLER will be the
> best TRAVELLER. After a few months, maybe we won't even need two lists anymore


Hey, could somebody who uses aol crosspost this stuff?  At least the
stuff that comes from MM, et al.

I think I know somebody who uses it, so maybe I'll have him dump
whatever group it is to a file and I'll chop it up.  What's the group
called, anyway?

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 03:44:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>
Subject: NT Mailing List Ideas and "NT" vs. "T4" acronyms.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960410024946.10668B-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.  I was not around during the original split of the list into TNE
and CT/MT, but a recent post suggests it was somewhat acrimonious.  I see
no such trend so far in the discussions regarding NT (except that some
people have the temerity to suggest that T4 is a better acronym! :-) (More
on that below). I don't think it's something we have to worry about. 

Here are the possibilities as I see them: 

1. A completely new, third list.
	This is the most obvious solution, but may be unecessary if many 
people on one or both of the existing lists convert to NT.  Too many 
lists could result in thinned-out traffic and loss of oportunities to 
exchange ideas.

2. Include NT with CT/MT.
	My vote is for this.  The xboat list is somewhat smaller than the
TNE list, so it could handle the extra traffic.  Also, the rules for NT
are supposed to be very similar to those for CT/MT, so it makes sense to
put them all together.  TNE/FF&S really is a very different game system
and a fairly different background, and therefore deserves its own separate
list. 

3. Multiple lists based on milieu or subject.
	I'm afraid I don't like this idea.  It could dilute things, and 
makes it difficult to know which list one is supposed to post to.  I like 
the idea of a small number of list better, for logistical reasons if 
nothing else.

4. One big list for everything. 
	This would be interesting, I think.  People would have to clearly 
label their posts in terms of which era they were referring to, and give 
good titles to their posts.  While I'm on this topic, I would like to ask 
everyone to give good descriptive titles to their posts, and to warn if 
the post is long.  Thanks.

Are there any other ideas for how to handle this?

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT...

I like the NT acronym for New Traveller better than T4 for a number of 
reasons:

1. "NT" is similar to "CT" and "MT", just as New Traveller is supposed to
be similar to Classic Trav and MegaTrav.  TNE is a very different game and
gets a very different acronym.  I think the risk of confusion is minimal 
(oops, there I go underestimating the power of human stupidity again! :-)

2. The new product isn't really the fourth edition of Traveller. 
There have been many editions of Classic Trav, and there was also
Traveller:2300. 

3. (Most importantly!) A "T4" is the income tax form here in Canada, and
it has very bad connotations for me, especially at this time of year! :-). 
I'm not the only one, there are a number of Canadians on the lists. 
Please have some sympathy, we're the third most taxed people on earth (or 
is it second?)!

While I'm in a facetious mood:

Top Ten Rejected Acronyms For the Latest Traveller Product:

10. T:TENE (Traveller: The Even Newer Era)
9. T:ONYARS (Traveller: Oh no! Yet Another Rules Set!)
8. T:TNTE (Traveller: The Non-Typo Era.  (I hope...))
7. T:TG (Traveller: The Gathering  by Wizzes of the Coast)
6. T:TM (Traveller: The Masquerade  by White Wash Games)
5. BT (BattleTraveller  by FRESCA)
4. T:TNG (Traveller: The Next Generation by whoever does Star Trek RPG)
3. T:TESO (Traveller: The Imperium Strikes Back  by West End) 
2. T95: (Traveller '95  by Microsoft)
Drum roll please Paul to cover up the lousy last one on the list...
1. TL (Traveller Latest, too easy to confuse with Tech Level).

My apologies for any injuries due to lame humor...
Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:26:55 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
Message-ID: <v02140b00ad918fe2debf@[193.12.250.151]>

>Yeah, but those rules from Best of JTAS #1 mean that high tech goods are
>cheaper on low tech worlds!

The exchange factor was 1.00 at Tl-F A-port and lower by lower TL and port.
When you go to a world you convert your trusty Imperial Cr to local and you
would always get the same or more local creds for your Imperial.
How could that make high tech goods cheaper on low tech worlds?
I only have the original JTAS issue (#4) so maybe they changed it in Best of=
=8A?

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:56:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
Message-ID: <9604101756.AA22655@Rt66.com>

 
> >Yeah, but those rules from Best of JTAS #1 mean that high tech goods are
> >cheaper on low tech worlds!
> 
> The exchange factor was 1.00 at Tl-F A-port and lower by lower TL and port.
> When you go to a world you convert your trusty Imperial Cr to local and you
> would always get the same or more local creds for your Imperial.
> How could that make high tech goods cheaper on low tech worlds?
> I only have the original JTAS issue (#4) so maybe they changed it in Best of=
> =8A?

Yes, but the article said to first convert to the credits (in imperials)
at the TL of manufacture.

The example given (in the article) was for a 2500Cr Map box.  They went
on to say that since it was made at TL9, the price (in _Imperials_, not
local credits) was 2500*0.7 (the 0.7 from the table given).  This was
the 1750Cr quoted.  only then do you calculate the cost in local
credits for a given world.  Of course it makes no difference since in
that system all that changes is how many units you spend, the actual
cost remains unchanged regardless of world (something costs 700 on one
world, 1000 on another, and the "real" price in Imperials doesn't
change).

So lower tech goods are cheaper if made on a lower tech world, and
higher tech goods are the same regardless of where you buy them.

Why are high tech goods more expensive?  Well, the article stated that
if the map box was made at TL 15, it would only differ from the TL9
version in little ways (reliability was suggested).  It would cost a lot
more though.  My example was a TL5 autopistol made on a TL5 world
without any starport vs. a TL15 world with an A starport.  The same
exact pistol would cost 10 times more made on the TL15 world!  What
improvements would there be, it's still an autopistol, mind you, not
some other technology.  There isn't much room for it to improve---the
same would be true for a revolver, and there is really no room for
improvement here, either.

Air rafts (as an example) will not be able to be made on the TL5 world,
but if they were, they'd cost the same as on the TL15 world (in
Imperials, which is all that really matters; local units only adds
flavor with that table, it does nothing to change actual values of goods
as I read it.

-Merrick 


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:44:33 -0800
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: BinHex
Message-ID: <v01540a00ad91b1403eab@[137.229.100.60]>


Most Macintosh Compression programs can generate BinHex (.hqx) from binary
or archive files.

Some that I KNOW will do it include: Stuffit!, ZipIt!, CompactPro.

All of these are available by web search or archie search. But to use them,
you MUST be on a mac, or a unix box or amiga with the mac emulator running.

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:47:22 +0200
From: "Raul Max. Espinosa" <muz@redestb.es>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <19960410204705921.AAE305@Shadow_World.redestb>

Hi, I=B4m new in the mail list, and this is my first message. I think one
list, with a coherent subject is the better idea.

			Elan sila l=FAmenn' omentielmo


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:24:52 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: ???????
Message-ID: <199604102224.RAA19077@osh1.datasync.com>

The last digest I got was Trav 653.  Is the list down, or did I get knocked
off?  Somebody please let me know.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:43:01 -0300
From: Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 653
Message-ID: <199604110043.VAA05960@catbert.>

"Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU> wrote 
[snip]

>	As long as we can remeber this, and not rise reflexively to 
>flame-bait: 'TNE Sucks and caused GDW to go under...now I hope all you 
>pathetic TNE'ers wither and die' 'Get with the program you
>old fogeys..or get out of the way!' 
>
>	What I'd dearly love to see is Traveller open up, so that a large
>plurality of ideas can be discussed.  What bothers me when words
>like 'canon' get bandied about are the dogmatic implications....this
>is the 'One True Way to Play'.  That does no-one any good.  

Hear Hear.

my recolection of the split was that it seemed the only way, at the time, to
not have half the content of any given digest be inter-version flames  --
and pretty nasty ones sometimes at that.

My main wonder about this (non-xboat) list is: what are we going to talk
about while we wait for T4 to come out?  I'm certainly not putting any more
money, time and effort into TNE: I already parted with all my old version
material.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 654
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 655

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
	by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  2) re: Top Ten Rejected Acronyms
	by Christopher Beattie <chrisb@MPGN.COM>
  3) The furture of the mailing list
	by "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
  4) Re: New List Discussion
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  5) Ramblings from the Admin
	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  6) Re: What do we do now?
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
  7) Re: What do we do now?
	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  8) Re: What do we do now?
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  9) Java Sector Viewer
	by Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:26:09 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
Message-ID: <01I3EAZ5ER0O91X850@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 10-APR-1996 07:42:55.58
To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:	
Subj:	Re(2): Tech/Price Differences

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:28:29 -0400
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
Sender: traveller@MPGN.COM

>Yeah, but those rules from Best of JTAS #1 mean that high tech goods are
>cheaper on low tech worlds!

The exchange factor was 1.00 at Tl-F A-port and lower by lower TL and port.
When you go to a world you convert your trusty Imperial Cr to local and you
would always get the same or more local creds for your Imperial.
How could that make high tech goods cheaper on low tech worlds?
I only have the original JTAS issue (#4) so maybe they changed it in Best of=
=8A?

/Backman
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think the original idea was derived from the fact that shoes made in the 
US are more expensive than ones made in Thailand. Same shoes, same tech, 
different price. 

When dealing with stuff beyond a systems nominal TL; 
I always kick the price up. If some TL15 thing costs 1000CR Imperial @ a TL15 
starport A world than I would divide by .7 (for example) if that was the ap-
propirate multiplier for another world with a lower TL. This would still be
in Imperial Credits, btw, so the cost in 'local' credits would be even higher.
This makes hi-tech stuff more expensive out in the boonies, even when buying 
with Imperial Credits, which is what I assume most Travellers will be carrying,
& is just the way I like things to work. It can get expensive out there on the 
Fringe when you rely too heavily on the highest tech.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:41:58 -0400
From: Christopher Beattie <chrisb@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: re: Top Ten Rejected Acronyms
Message-ID: <199604111341.JAA00582@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>

Hmm, it seems my favorite one is missing from
the list, so may I add the 11th one? <G>

T:MMB (Traveller : Marc Miller's Back!)

Remember, as the old saying goes, "You can call
me anything, as long as you call me for dinner!"

|     _____         |Christopher Beattie |        P.O. Box 2310|
|  ___ |[]|_n_n_I_c |Tantalus Inc.       |   Key West, FL 33045|
| |___||__|###|____)|Development Div.    |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
|  O-O--O-O+++--O-O |chrisb@Tansoft.com  |  Fax: (305) 292-7835|
| #include <disclamer.standard.hpp>      | @ --- ride the wave |


------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 11 Apr 96 11:25:07 EDT
From: "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
To: Tml <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: The furture of the mailing list
Message-ID:   <960411.113804.EDT.34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

Greetings,
    I do not feel that the TML need to be split up again.  In fact I feel the
TML/X-boat list should be combined again.  We all have an interest in traveller
in general, what we fight over are the details and Rules systems, which to
a large degree is pointless, all be it fun.  So why not pool are resouses and
skills rather then subdividing are selfs some more (Gearhead/ Non-gearhead/
 TNEer/CTer/MTer/ Giga-traveller/cat lover)
   This federation will require everone to act civil to each other, (no flame w
ars between the generations)  and to restist the impule to send us evil
idolaters (TNE fans) out into the wilderness.  Who knows mabe we can all
learn something from each other.

        David Nelson
                  Cope god, President mt. pleasant Gaming assoc,
                    TNE fan, and all around guy.
"It's O.k. we'er staff....."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:06:39 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New List Discussion
Message-ID: <199604111606.LAA16548@osh1.datasync.com>

I still am in favor of two lists.  One for CT/MT/TNE, and one for New Trav.

I wasn't around when the lists originally split, but from what I understand
one of the main problems was the major change in rules.  (Yes, I know many
people hate the Virus concept, but the complaints I keep seeing are the
rules.)  I think most TNEers are planning to switch to the new rules set (I
am), and most CT/MTers will switch to the new rules because it will be
similar to the original system.  This means that those who choose to use any
of the old rules systems will be in the minority.

As far as the setting goes, with a little immagination (that's what fuels
this game anyway, isn't it), most information could be transferred from one
setting to another.  Sure, Virus and the RC don't exist in the year 1, but
pirates do, and the Imperium is rather small (compared to its glory days).
If everyone tries to remember to define a time setting in their subject line
it would help, but as it has already been pointed out,  sometimes the area
you think least capable of good ideas will spew forth some of the best thoughts.

FWIW, I think we should all pledge to try to get along and make this new
Trav system work.  I am anxious to see this edition of Trav work.  If we all
put our "cultish" beliefs about Trav aside and show a little tolerance, we
might just be able to work together (Yes, I do believe that CT/MTers and
TNEers can work together) to help Trav survive.


On another note:

I will label myself (possible), but I'm a TNEer who will be glad to see the
return of thruster plates as opposed to HePlaR.


Also, I agree with Merrick.  Someone who is on AOL need to, please, post
Marc's comments here for those of us who are not on AOL.  If some could post
the previous topics covered, as well as future discussion topics, I for one
would be very grateful.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:29:48 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Ramblings from the Admin
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960411192948.006d0048@central.TanSoft.COM>

Stupid mail alias.  Any way TML, sorry to have shorted you on this.

Rob

>Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:30:28 -0400
>To: traveller,xboat
>From: Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
>Subject: Ramblings from the Admin
>
>Just a couple of thoughts I would like to pass around.  You know, things I
thought you should know kinda stuff.
>
>First, we will probably be moving the mailing list from our offices in New
York to our offices in Key West.  This could happen as early as today.  For
you, it should be pretty transparent.  We are going to switch to majordomo
as part of the change.  We will probably alias listproc to go to the right
place for subscribe/signoff commands.  Certain commands such as SET MAIL ACK
and stuff
>wont work.  You will still use traveller@mpgn.com and xboat@mpgn.com to
communicate with the list.
>
>Because of this, and the fact that we are busy with all these equipment
moves, I have not processed any address changes or other administrative
requests in several days.  I will probably clean these up during the
transition between servers.
>
>With regards to what to do with the lists.  Alot of what to do with the
list depends on what actually comes out of the new Traveller system and the
reason for Xboat in the first place.
>
>Regardless, "Traveller" will be to discuss the game in all forms, and will
naturally discuss the current shipping products.  Call it evolution, or what
ever.  Thats the purpose of the list, and that is not going to change.
>
>Xboat was created for the refugees from Classic Traveller that felt that
the current Traveller was not for them.  If the new Traveller brings the
Classic Traveller's back into the mainstream, then Xboat's mission is less
important.  Probably though, the TNE exiles will need a home.  Xboat's
charter could be changed, but I would be inclined to leave Xboat alone, and
let it die of attrition while creating a list for the TNE folks to continue
to discuss TNE.  Maybe we could call it RCES or someother recognizable TNE
based word that would not be misleading to the non-Traveller savvy public
(i.e. no list called virus@mpgn.com).
>
>I personally am going to be in a wait and see mode until August when this
stuff hits the streets.  We can then discuss what we want to do with the lists.
>
>So for the immediate future, please use "Traveller@mpgn.com" for discussing
the new Traveller.   Should traffic warrent changes before the products
release in August, we can work on a list for the TNE fans.
>
>Rob
>
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- s:++ a34 w+ !v C++>++++ UU++++$ P---
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | L+ E--- W+++ N+++ o K-  w+ O- M-- V-- PS+ PE 
Contrary to popular belief,  | (-po+) Y-- PGP- t++ !5>++ X-- R+++ tv+++ b DI+++
I don't know what I'm doing. | D G+ e++ h---- r+++ y++++ (Geek Code 3.14)


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:21:19 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: What do we do now?
Message-ID: <5C9261927@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

Les Howie said:

> My main wonder about this (non-xboat) list is: what are we going to talk
> about while we wait for T4 to come out?  I'm certainly not putting any more
> money, time and effort into TNE: I already parted with all my old version
> material.
> Les Howie

	Why should this list be any different from the x-boat...officially 
they've had 'nothing to talk about' for several years now...My 
campaign is set in the New era, I'm not going to throw all my work 
out now.  Some rules may change here and there; if the New Traveller 
system is significantly better, I'll adopt it.  This is what I meant 
by dogma...just because there's a new version out, there's no reason 
to fling myself at the bandwagon.  I've learned that the hard way, 
through several operating system and program 'upgrades' in RL.

	Maybe I have a different view of all this.  Having started gaming in 
the era when the systems I used (D&D 1st ed and CT) didn't have the 
vast backgrounds they have now, and everything was up to the GM, I've 
never been irrevocably wedded to 'canon' in any gaming system; 
certainly not to the point of throwing away hundreds of hours of work 
because a new version of the game is coming out.

	As GM YOU are the final arbiter of anything in your game; I tell 
rules lawyers that they simply aren't allowed to practice in my 
universe.  I try hard to make sure that the rules I DO use are 
applied in a fair and consistent manner, but just because TNE says 
thrusters magically disappeared and became HEPLAR doesn't mean I HAVE 
to use it.

	As another caveat, I'm more of a role player than a rule player; I 
don't get into the serious gear-head stuff too much...I go by Clarke's third 
law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from 
magic".  Things are rather lightly explained, I don't get out the 
orbital calculus texts to have my players move from jump point to 
the main world; re-fuelling tends to be more of the 'Oh yeah, before 
we go we gotta pop over to the local Exxon Gas Giant and Covenience 
Store  and fill 'er up...and get me a bag of Chee-tos while you're at 
it, Harry'.

	For those who want a hard SF game this is anathema, I know. But 
what the hell, it works for me.

	So what do I like to see? Descriptive backgrounds, adventure seeds, 
stuff I can steal and put into my world.

	For instance, I LIKE the concept of Virus.  Not necessarily the 
mechanics of it's implementation, but the idea that humans, and other 
organic lifeforms, now have a serious competitor that's utterly 
different from them in needs, motivations, and behavior.

	So they're in my universe.  If you don't like them...don't use 
them.  But that hardly means that everything in my universe is 
useless to you, or vice-versa.  

	Another fr'instance...Alvin Plummer did a nifty design a while
back, about these gigantic frieghters.  I don't have any of them
still in my universe (at least that anyone's yet found ;-) but the
idea captured me enough to write an adventure outline that's set in
the late 900's.

	Creativity (at least in my case) flourishes best in diversity; I 
don't mind exposure to new ideas...If I like 'em, I'll use 'em, if I 
don't, tough...it's no skin off my nose.  That's why I really dislike 
splitting lists like this, you miss out all the opportunities for 
hybrid vigor.

	I promise, this is my last lecture on the subject ;-)

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:41:09 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: What do we do now?
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960411204109.006e8d80@central.TanSoft.COM>

At 04:22 PM 4/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>	Creativity (at least in my case) flourishes best in diversity; I 
>don't mind exposure to new ideas...If I like 'em, I'll use 'em, if I 
>don't, tough...it's no skin off my nose.  That's why I really dislike 
>splitting lists like this, you miss out all the opportunities for 
>hybrid vigor.

The reason that the list split in the first place was because it was like
having a list to discuss Vampire.  Then all of a sudden, the converstation
changes to GURPS:Vampire (different rules, same background -- sorta).  The
background was pretty much the same, though most Spinward Marches people
could care less about the Diaspora sector. Now a new set of rules was also
dominating the conversation, and suddenly the people who enjoyed talking
about Traveller and the Spinward Marches (pre-virus era stuff) found
themselves having to read a bunch of irrelevent stuff (from their
perspective).  They asked for a list for them, and they got it.

While I think we should be one big happy Traveller family, I understand and
accept the rational behind the xboat list.  I also am open to creating a TNE
based list after the new stuff comes out, if traffic warrants it.

All I ask is that the main Traveller thread regarding the current state of
the game (shipping products, current "Era" blah blah blah) stay in
Traveller, not xboat.  This is not netnews, and I don't want to go into
creating a bazillion groups, when the overall traffic and number of users
barely warrents two lists. 

Oh, it looks as if the list move will be held off for another day.  We had a
bunch of other problems today and didn't get to it.  Remember, you should
not be affected by the move.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- s:++ a34 w+ !v C++>++++ UU++++$ P---
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | L+ E--- W+++ N+++ o K-  w+ O- M-- V-- PS+ PE 
Contrary to popular belief,  | (-po+) Y-- PGP- t++ !5>++ X-- R+++ tv+++ b DI+++
I don't know what I'm doing. | D G+ e++ h---- r+++ y++++ (Geek Code 3.14)


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:06:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: What do we do now?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960411155046.3568A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> 	Why should this list be any different from the x-boat...officially 
> they've had 'nothing to talk about' for several years now...My 
> campaign is set in the New era, I'm not going to throw all my work 
> out now.  Some rules may change here and there; if the New Traveller 
> system is significantly better, I'll adopt it.  This is what I meant 
> by dogma...just because there's a new version out, there's no reason 
> to fling myself at the bandwagon.  I've learned that the hard way, 
> through several operating system and program 'upgrades' in RL.

	Here, here!  I've used last-generation stuff (Atari 8-bit 
computer, Classic Traveller) for quite some time now, and haven't found 
doing so to be a bad thing.  I find what works, and I stick with it.  
	I used to upgrade to the new version of everything I was 
interested in as soon as it came out.  But after years of doing that, and 
finding myself no happier for the expenditures, I decided to figure out 
which of my hobby items brought me the most happiness, and stick with 'em.
	When the new Traveller comes out, I am definitely going to look 
at it.  I'll go to the games store, page carefully through the book, and 
decide whether it is worth buying.  If it is, then I'll bring it home and 
examine it more in-depth.  Then I will decide whether to buy any more New 
Traveller items.  
	If I decide not to, I won't be "losing out" or "missing the 
boat."  I'll simply be playing the incarnation of Traveller that I enjoy 
the most.

> 	Maybe I have a different view of all this.  Having started gaming in 
> the era when the systems I used (D&D 1st ed and CT) didn't have the 
> vast backgrounds they have now, and everything was up to the GM, I've 
> never been irrevocably wedded to 'canon' in any gaming system; 
> certainly not to the point of throwing away hundreds of hours of work 
> because a new version of the game is coming out.

	While I know very well that I am given to bouts of "old 
codgerism," I still feel what you say is true.  At least in my 
experience, the old-timers are better able to see RPG's as clay to be 
molded, rather than as statues carved in stone.  The idea that Marc 
Miller, Gary Gygax, the entire development staff of TSR, or anyone else 
can tell me how I'm going to play a game is rediculous, IMO.  But, as you 
said, maybe that's a generational thing.

> 	As another caveat, I'm more of a role player than a rule player; I 
> don't get into the serious gear-head stuff too much...I go by Clarke's third 
> law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from 
> magic".  Things are rather lightly explained, I don't get out the 
> orbital calculus texts to have my players move from jump point to 
> the main world; re-fuelling tends to be more of the 'Oh yeah, before 
> we go we gotta pop over to the local Exxon Gas Giant and Covenience 
> Store  and fill 'er up...and get me a bag of Chee-tos while you're at 
> it, Harry'.

	This is much how we play it.  I enjoy hard SF as much as the next 
guy when it comes to reading it, but I expect an RPG to be less wedded to 
"hard" science.  I don't worry about how a gizmo works so much as how 
WELL it works.

> 	So what do I like to see? Descriptive backgrounds, adventure seeds, 
> stuff I can steal and put into my world.

	And even there, I bet you're as unlikely to take the background 
as writ in stone as I am.  Sure, I like to have a nice backdrop for my 
adventures, but if I decide that there's a race of giants on a given 
world, or if I decide that a given world has a law level or some other 
characteristic different from that given in the official rules, I'm going 
to ignore the rules.  
	By the way, in my conversation with Ken Whitman, he also 
mentioned this phenomina of players and referees following the rules as 
if they were God's law.  He told me that the new system will be more 
explicit in encouraging 'house rules' and alternate uses of the system.

> don't mind exposure to new ideas...If I like 'em, I'll use 'em, if I 
> don't, tough...it's no skin off my nose.  That's why I really dislike 
> splitting lists like this, you miss out all the opportunities for 
> hybrid vigor.

	I, too, would like to see one list, as I've said before.

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:13:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Java Sector Viewer
Message-ID: <199604120014.UAA16046@mag1.magmacom.com>

Hi all.

Check out http://www2.magmacom.com/~ehenry/traveller/ !

I wrote up a little subsector viewing program in Java.
Have a look at it, the source is available too.

It's kind of primitive now, but I expect things to
improve shortly...

Anyways, enjoy!

Ethan

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 655
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 656

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Arden
	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  2) Survey on Future of TML/XTML
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  3) Re: Arden
	by Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
  4) Co-operate to survive
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 13:10:00 PDT
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: "'tml'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>, "'xboat'" <xboat@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Arden
Message-ID: <316EB8BE@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>


Hi folks

I'm writing a scenario (that I expect will turn into a
campaign) set on the world of Arden in the
Spinward Marches.

I would like to try and keep this material within the
existing canon as far as possible.  I have consulted
all the sources that I have at my disposal (Spinward
Marches, Library data, Regency Sourcebook)
that at least cover the area.  I was wondering if any
of you knew of any information relating specifically
to Arden that exists outside of these?  I'm referring
to anything from scenarios to snippets of information
about names of cities etc. (pref. 1110 or earlier)

If you know of anything I'd be grateful if you could
e-mail me with the name of the publication so I can
try and track it down (or if it's only a little bit of info,
perhaps you could just let me know what it is...)
Thanks a lot.

By the way, in all the discussion about new lists and
names for the new incarnation of Traveller, and in the
light of the ongoing CT/TNE schism,  I'm surprised
that nobody's mentioned:

Traveller 4: The Empire Strikes Back ....
;-)

Cheers

Iain

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:33:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>,
Subject: Survey on Future of TML/XTML
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960412101835.9456A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.  I think with this discussion swinging into full action, it's 
time for a little game of "survery says!".  Please email me at:

charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

The message subject line should be "Survey: Option x", where x 
is the number of your preferred option.  

Options:

1. Leave Traveller and Xboat alone, create new mailing list for New 
Traveller.

2. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Xboat.

3. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Traveller.

4. Leave lists as are, and discuss New Traveller on either/both.

5. Create single list for all game versions.

6. Create several lists divided by topic, such as technology, history, 
rules, etc.

7. Create new list for TNE, discuss New Traveller on Traveller, and leave 
Xboat for CT/MT.

8. Other (please specify).

Okay that's it.  Please get those votes in soon.  Polls close on April 
30th.  Thanks.

BTW, I realize this is more Rob's job, but he sounds busy these days. So 
what I'm going to do is collate the stuff I get and report the results in 
the first week of May.  

Happy Travellin',
Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:04:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Arden
Message-ID: <199604122004.PAA24965@pentagon.io.com>

>From Classic Traveller's Adventure 6, "Expedition to Zhodane":

< Warning: spoilers ahead, assuming anybody is new to or wants to play in 
this adventure:>

p. 5: "Arden rules both Utoland and Zircon as colonies and is gradually 
stripping resources for use in its own developing economy....  Technology
level for the world [Utoland] is 7 and shows an effort by the ruling 
administration to keep local capabilities at a manageable level."

Many tidbits on job offers, etc. imply widespread and more-or-less 
accepted corruption in the Arden government.  Oh, and p. 15 points
out that "all companies named Arden [Arden Construction, Arden
Mining, etc.] are owned by the Arden government, although this fact
is not widely known."  Arden Mining's subsidiary Serene Mining Franchise 
is the bunch of double-crossers who strand our heroes in the asteroid
belt....

That's about it, so far as I know, until the additional material on the
Federation's "Casablanca"-like nature from Regency Sourcebook....

--------------------------*-------------------------*------------------------
Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett | "Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
--------------------------*  sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
      jlockett@io.com     |  fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 96 17:36:42 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
To: BlindCopyReceiver:;
Subject: Co-operate to survive
Message-ID: <960412213641_100326.446_JHF36-2@CompuServe.COM>


>> FWIW, I think we should all pledge to try to get along and make this new Trav
system work.  I am anxious to see this edition of Trav work.  If we all put our
"cultish" beliefs about Trav aside and show a little tolerance, we might just be
able to work together (Yes, I do believe that CT/MTers and TNEers can work
together) to help Trav survive. <<

Clap, clap, clap. Absolutely. As a digest recipient, I tend to view the thing
rather like a magazine. It has bits in for the system I use, and bits in for the
one I don't. I read in detail the bits for CT/MT, and skim through the TNE
stuff, pausing at bits I like. The only bits I tend to skip right over are
bloody flame wars.

We must co-operate. It's not the same any more. We're not slagging a new edition
of the game we all (more or less) love. We're toying with the extirpiration of
that game in toto.

HWF


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 656
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 657

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Can't we all just get along?
	by Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 656
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  3) Fifth Frontier War
	by granthh@anubis.network.com (Harley Grantham)
  4) Re: Can't we all just get along?
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:18:14 -0800
From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Can't we all just get along?
Message-ID: <316F3916.206E@concentric.net>

>>We must co-operate. It's not the same any more. We're not slagging a new edition
of the game we all (more or less) love. We're toying with the extirpiration of
that game in toto.<<

All too true.  If we don't support the new Traveller, folks, there ain't gonna _be_ a 
Traveller anymore.  Let's stick together and give it a fair shake, or T4 will be the game's 
swan song.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:20:05 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 656
Message-ID: <960413032004_468853749@emout09.mail.aol.com>

<< Options:
1. Leave Traveller and Xboat alone, create new mailing list 
    for New Traveller.
2. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Xboat.
3. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Traveller.
4. Leave lists as are, and discuss New Traveller on either/both.
5. Create single list for all game versions.
6. Create several lists divided by topic, such as technology, 
    history, rules, etc.
7. Create new list for TNE, discuss New Traveller on Traveller, 
    and leave Xboat for CT/MT.
8. Other (please specify). >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
As I see it, there's going to be a wide variety of Traveller topics
and discussions that are going to 'spin-off' with the creation of
the new game.  This is a fact that's shown itself to be true with
the advent of MegaTraveller and then The New Era.   There's no
reason it shouldn't happen again and many reasons that it 
should happen, especially NOW!

This is a very different situation that the second and third 
'incarnations' of Traveller.  They were re-vamps of the original
game system.  This time, they're doing it right and creating
and entirely new game system while using the 'skeleton' of
the Classic Traveller as a framework and adding various 
useful 'organs' gleened from sources that have shown true
value over the years.  This very concept lends itself to a
massive amount of debat on a wide variety of topics.

For this reason, I suggest a version of option #6.

There needs to INITIALLY be a place for all aspects of the 
gaming system to be ironed out.  There just isn't enough
room for everything to be done in a couple of publications
and on a timely basis.  With a multiplicity of lists, we could
attack each problem individually and deal with them.  Then,
when the interest in any one list wained, it could be dis-
continued with no problem.

There... do I make sense??

Thanks....


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:27:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: granthh@anubis.network.com (Harley Grantham)
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Fifth Frontier War
Message-ID: <9604131927.AA11243@anubis.network.com>

Hi all!

I picked up a used copy of Fifth Frontier War and two counters are missing.

Could someone please tell me the names and numbers on the following counters:

Imperial Admiral #1

Vargyr Admiral #1

Thanks,

-- 
Harley Grantham					granthh@anubis.network.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:47:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Can't we all just get along?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960413153510.4583A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Christopher Griffen wrote:

> >>We must co-operate. It's not the same any more. We're not slagging a new edition
> of the game we all (more or less) love. We're toying with the extirpiration of
> that game in toto.<<
> 
> All too true.  If we don't support the new Traveller, folks, there ain't gonna _be_ a 
> Traveller anymore.  Let's stick together and give it a fair shake, or T4 will be the game's 
> swan song.
> 

	It's even worse than that.  If we don't not only buy the thing, 
but get lots of other people to buy it, then it will undoubtedly die.   I 
doubt there are enough Traveller players left to support a new edition by 
ourselves.  The new Traveller has to have not only us, but new blood as well.
	I've been through this same situation with Atari before.  Their 
Jaguar 64-bit videogame system was introduced in a similar situation - 
the Atari name recognition, once great, was virtually unknown among the 
current game players.  The Traveller name isn't quite as unknown as 
Atari, but it is no where near as well-known as it was in 1983.  The 
Atari community decided to support the game system, for the most part, 
but failed in getting the word out.  I know, it's primarily the 
responsibility of the manufacturer to get that word ot - and Atari failed 
at that, too.  But we can't rely on Imperium Games and/or Far Future to 
get the word out any more than the Atari community could rely on Atari 
Corp. - small companies have a hard time when they go against goliaths 
like Sega and TSR.
	If we want this to work, we have to spread the word.  And, we 
have to do it politely.  Not by bashing other RP systems (this just 
entrenches the opposition), but by demonstrating as best we can the 
superiority of the Traveller system.  Politely show people how much fun 
the game is.
	There is no way Traveller is going to successfully win the 
"storytelling" games market, so ignore it.  Concentrate on those who 
enjoy true RPGs (in the classic sense of the term).  
	How do we go about this?  Once the game is out, start discussions 
in r.g.f.misc.   Write letters to general gaming magazines like Shadis.  
Write articles for gaming magazines that have large readerships (write 
reviews, system additions, adventures, explanatory essays on aspects of 
the Imperial culture, etc.).  
	Never, never say the other systems are worse.  Just emphasize the 
excellence of Traveller.  If you get a response that is flame-bait, don't 
take it if you aren't up to responding in a way that makes the flamer 
look silly in the eyes of the rest of the readership while simultaneously 
making you look good in their eyes.
	All this is IMO, of course.  But it is based on experience in 
similar situations - all of which were bungled.  The manufacturers 
dropped the ball, but the enthusiasts failed to recover it.  And the 
enthusiasts suffered along with the manufacturer.

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 657
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 658

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: New List Discussion
	by David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>
  2) Re: Fifth Frontier War
	by muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
  3) Re: New List Discussion
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  4) TL pricing
	by Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 657
	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
  6) Re: Fifth Frontier War
	by nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
  7) Re: TRAVELLER digest 657
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  8) Re: New List Discussion
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  9) List options, etc
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
 10) Survey on Future of TML/XTML (Reprise)
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
 11) Re: New Traveller: Buy it or die!
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 05:03:37 GMT
From: David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New List Discussion
Message-ID: <31702276.2095114@post.demon.co.uk>

Just a thought ( he says donning his Battledress ) but why don't we
finally get a Traveller newsgroup set up. It would certainly make
thread following a lot easier ( my biggest gripe with the current
lists ). I can understand that in the past a mailing list was probably
the only way to bring in people on the proprietary networks, but now
that they all seem to be providing Internet access is this still a
problem? If it is then I know that you can have combined
list/newsgroups.

Thoughts??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Burden, Birmingham, UK
Home: http://www.ftech.net/~innocom  Email: david@innocom.demon.co.uk 
Work: http://www.sts.co.uk           Email: david_burden@severntrent.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 09:42:11 -0500
From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Fifth Frontier War
Message-ID: <199604141442.JAA23283@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com>


>Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:27:35 -0500 (CDT)
>From: granthh@anubis.network.com (Harley Grantham)
>To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Fifth Frontier War
>Message-ID: <9604131927.AA11243@anubis.network.com>
>
>Hi all!
>
>I picked up a used copy of Fifth Frontier War and two counters are missing.
>
>Could someone please tell me the names and numbers on the following counters:
>
>Imperial Admiral #1
>
>Vargyr Admiral #1
>
>Thanks,
>
>--
>Harley Grantham                                 granthh@anubis.network.com

Hey, Harley,

Imperial Admiral #1 is Two Stars, 4 (-1)

Vargr Admiral #1 is Two Stars, 2, (+1)

John K.



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:24:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New List Discussion
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960414102111.4689A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, David Burden wrote:

> Just a thought ( he says donning his Battledress ) but why don't we
> finally get a Traveller newsgroup set up. It would certainly make
> thread following a lot easier ( my biggest gripe with the current
> lists ). I can understand that in the past a mailing list was probably
> the only way to bring in people on the proprietary networks, but now
> that they all seem to be providing Internet access is this still a
> problem? If it is then I know that you can have combined
> list/newsgroups.
> 
> Thoughts??
> 

	Two thoughts:

	1)  Would it increase participation?

	2)  It would definitely lead to the usual level of spamming, 
inappropriate cross-posting, and unrelated posts.  

	I like the mailing list format.  It keeps the discussion limited 
to posts by those who enjoy Traveller.  We don't get cross-posts such as 
"Magic: The Gathering sucks!" or "Christianity forbids role-playing," and 
other such topics as get strewn about the r.g.f.* heirarchy.


-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:42:54 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TL pricing
Message-ID: <3171472E.3F55@ludd.luth.se>

Once upon a time Phil McGregor wrote:

> I (and presumably *everyone* on this - and the sister - list) have been
> complaining about this for *years*. But this opens the whole can of worms -
> such a TL/15 version of a TL/12 computer would be *cheaper* as well. And that
> brings up the whole problem of the severely disfunctional tech-economy
> relationship in Traveller.

This effect might be explained by an example from our own time and world. How much would a 
brand new 80286 processor cost today? They aren't made anymore, or if they are, they are 
much more expensive than the later newer processors. I think we can safely assume that same 
relationship will affect the prices in the future too. Another example: How much did ENIAC 
cost?

> Phil McGregor

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:48:54 +0000
From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 657
Message-ID: <199604141848.TAA12378@cheviot.ncl.ac.uk>

I've just had a nasty thought (actually I have lots, but there 
normally about Man Utd and accidents, wishful thinking on my behalf) 
if T4 ends up on the Traveller, does this mean TNE will be Consumed 
to the xboat mailing list as an old system, it's too horroble to 
contemplate TNE seen alongside CT and MT. Apologies to all you TNE 
fans, but definately no apologies to all you Man Utd fans: 
"Whats that red line in the snow..."
But no in all seriousness I'm afraid we'll all have to buy the new 
system and bite the bullet, so let's all declare peace and good will 
between all factions and go marching into a gloriuos future 
(providing the Man Utd fans arn't coming).
Cheers
Bob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 20:21 BST-1
From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Fifth Frontier War
Message-ID: <memo.456761@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <199604140124.VAA19392@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>
In Traveller digest 657 Harley Grantham asked:

> I picked up a used copy of Fifth Frontier War and two counters
> are missing.
> Could someone please tell me the names and numbers on the
> following counters:
> Imperial Admiral #1

Liang  ;  has 2 stars  ;  4  minus 1

> Vargyr Admiral #1

Thuekhs ;  has 2 stars  ;  2  plus 1



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:37:59 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 657
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960414193759.00690bd0@mail.usa.net>

At 02:49 pm 4/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
>But no in all seriousness I'm afraid we'll all have to buy the new 
>system and bite the bullet, so let's all declare peace and good will 

        Says who? If it doesn't meet my wants, I don't have to buy it ...
I've got my TNE stuff, and my MT stuff, and my CT stuff ...

        Seriously, there are quite a few people who are playing quite
happily with previous editions, who felt no need to buy TNE. Likewise, I
expect there to be people who chose not to upgrade again.

        And before somebody starts threatening to burn me at the stake for
not supporting Traveller, and hence condemning it to death: calm down,
please. It's only a game, not a religion. If it's something I want, I'll
support it. If it's not, I won't. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. If you
can explain to me why I should spend money on something I don't want, I'll
certainly reconsider. But my real hope is it will be something I like. From
what little dribs of rumors I've been hearing, I'm not expecting it, but I
can hope. 
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:37:54 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New List Discussion
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960414193754.0068dd4c@mail.usa.net>

At 04:24 am 4/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Just a thought ( he says donning his Battledress ) but why don't we
>finally get a Traveller newsgroup set up. It would certainly make
>thread following a lot easier ( my biggest gripe with the current
>lists ). I can understand that in the past a mailing list was probably
>the only way to bring in people on the proprietary networks, but now
>that they all seem to be providing Internet access is this still a
>problem? If it is then I know that you can have combined
>list/newsgroups.
>
>Thoughts??

        Frankly, I think newsgroups stink. The noise ratio is incredibly
high, and there are too many morons out there. With a mailing list, at
least, people have to take the effort to subscribe. And even then, you
occasionally get some jackass who thinks everybody needs to hear about his
Russian Mail Order Brides scam or some such. I would personally have to vote
_against_ a newsgroup at this point.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: 14 Apr 96 16:28:48 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
To: BlindCopyReceiver:;
Subject: List options, etc
Message-ID: <960414202848_100326.446_JHF61-2@CompuServe.COM>

On the topic of what list goes where, as I read my digests on a very antique
8086 lappie, the size of the lumps is very percptible - and XBoat is far bigger
than TML. Perhaps this means CT/MT folx just have had more practice writing in a
rules vacuum; perhaps it's more to do with Joe Walsh's superb house rule
postings (most useful things I've ever had off the digest - more! more! <g>).

In any case, I'd feel it a mistake to dismiss Xboat as smaller than TML. I think
Rob's right; no descision should be made until T4 is out - and the initial post
storm around launch time has died down - about the future list structure. Until
then we should talk about it on both; hell, we already are!

>> The reason NT was semi-rejected was its similarity to Windows NT by Lucan (Or
was it =B5Soft? :)<<

Bill Gates as Lucan <laughs like a drain!>

WD


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:33:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>,
Subject: Survey on Future of TML/XTML (Reprise)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960414161848.19250B-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.  Well, the response to my survey request has been steady.  Having 
said that, some of the mail I'm getting indicates that I may not have 
been clear enough in my initial post.   Here are the options again, with 
extra explanations.  Also please observe the subject line protocol I 
have outlined below.  I check the text of each mail as it comes in, but 
it will be easier come counting time if everyone does the following:

Read the following list of options about the future of TML/XTML mailing 
lists, and send me email indicating your preference. My address is:

charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

IMPORTANT:  The message subject line should be "Survey: Option x", where x
is the number of your preferred option.  If you have already sent me a
vote that was not in this format, please send in another and make it clear
in the body of the letter that this is a second vote so I don't count you
twice.  Thanks. Additional comments are welcome, but please make the
subject line as indicated. 

Voting Options:

1. Leave Traveller and Xboat alone, create new mailing list for New 
Traveller.  This would mean three lists, one for CT/MT, one for TNE, and 
another for NT.

2. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Xboat.  This would 
mean two lists, one for CT/MT/NT and another for TNE.

3. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Traveller.  This 
would mean two lists, one for CT/MT, and one for TNE/NT.

4. Leave lists as are, and discuss New Traveller on either/both.  This 
would mean two lists, one for CT/MT/NT, and another for TNE/NT.

5. Create single list for all game versions (CT/MT/TNE/NT).

6. Create several lists divided by topic, such as technology, history, 
rules, etc.

7. Create new list for TNE, discuss New Traveller on Traveller, and leave 
Xboat for CT/MT.  This is similar to option 1, except that the TML 
retains its charter as a forum for discussing the latest Traveller version.

8. Other (please specify).  

Just a reminder: I'm "closing the poll" April 30th, so get those votes in 
soon.

Happy Travellin',
Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:55:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New Traveller: Buy it or die!
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960414155013.29992B-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 02:49 pm 4/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >But no in all seriousness I'm afraid we'll all have to buy the new 
> >system and bite the bullet, so let's all declare peace and good will 
> 
>         Says who? If it doesn't meet my wants, I don't have to buy it ...
> I've got my TNE stuff, and my MT stuff, and my CT stuff ...
> 
>         Seriously, there are quite a few people who are playing quite
> happily with previous editions, who felt no need to buy TNE. Likewise, I
> expect there to be people who chose not to upgrade again.

	Despite the plan I laid out for user support of the new 
Traveller, I agree with you.  I have no plan to upgrade to the new 
Traveller - and I have no plan not to.  I'm going to wait and see what it 
is like when it comes out.
	But my earlier prescription stands: those individuals who buy and 
enjoy the new Traveller (whether I am included in their number or not) 
should seek to bring in new blood.
	And those who do not upgrade should refrain from revileing the 
new system.  If I choose not to upgrade, I'll be very happy if there is a 
place offered for the discussion of CT.  

>         And before somebody starts threatening to burn me at the stake for
> not supporting Traveller, and hence condemning it to death: calm down,
> please. It's only a game, not a religion. If it's something I want, I'll
> support it. If it's not, I won't. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. If you
> can explain to me why I should spend money on something I don't want, I'll
> certainly reconsider. But my real hope is it will be something I like. From
> what little dribs of rumors I've been hearing, I'm not expecting it, but I
> can hope. 

	What are do you find disheartening in the various rumors?

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 658
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 659

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TL pricing
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  2) Traveller Newsgroup...Yuck!
	by "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
  3) Survey: Option 6
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  4) New Traveller
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  5) Re: T4 name (was Arden)
	by Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
  6) TML newsgroup??
	by Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
  7) Lists and T4
	by aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
  8) New Mailing Lists
	by Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
  9) TML newsgroup??
	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 22:15:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL pricing
Message-ID: <9604150415.AA08782@Rt66.com>

 
> Once upon a time Phil McGregor wrote:
> 
> > I (and presumably *everyone* on this - and the sister - list) have been
> > complaining about this for *years*. But this opens the whole can of worms -
>> such a TL/15 version of a TL/12 computer would be *cheaper* as well. And that
> > brings up the whole problem of the severely disfunctional tech-economy
> > relationship in Traveller.
> 
> This effect might be explained by an example from our own time and world. How much would a 
>brand new 80286 processor cost today? They aren't made anymore, or if they are, they are 
>    much more expensive than the later newer processors. I think we can safely assume that same 
>   relationship will affect the prices in the future too. Another example: How much did ENIAC 
> cost?
> 
> > Phil McGregor
> 
>  / Per

I think that you miss Phil's point.  Sure, we can't/don't make 286s
anymore, but take your generic $1000+ XT clone from that era.  OK, how
much does it cost to make a computer that meets the same benchmarks
(speed, memory, etc.?)  I bet a Newton can out perform the XT gathering
dust in my shed, and it's maybe 1/2 a kilo and the size of an
addressbook.  It is also somewhat cheaper.

Since the tech in traveller is grouped by the specs it meets, that's
what you need to look at.

So why would we expect a computer manufacturer on a TL15 world to make
a computer (using TL15 tech) that has does a fraction of what their top
of the line does, but takes up much more room?  At the very least you
could allow that even if it were the same price as it would be at TL12,
it should at least be the smaller size at all times if made at a higher
TL.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date:          Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:42:41 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller Newsgroup...Yuck!
Message-ID: <199604150438.VAA17620@goodguy.goodnet.com>

My Cr.02 on the subject of newsgroups and mailing lists...

I'll set them up, somebody else can knock them down.

1)  Newsgroup: NO, please a thousand times NO!!!!!!!!

Sorry to shout, but...I frequently read about a dozen newsgroups, and 
between the spammers, the RPG's are satanic thread, the appeals to fight the 
Telecom Act, etc...the signal to noise ratio is ridiculously high...

I may not agree with everything everybody says here (thank goodness I 
don't), but at least the comments are usually (99% of the time) on 
topic.

2) Mailing Lists...

2 Newsgroups: 1) TNE 
(I know this is going to make somebody mad at me, so I'll dawn the 
asbestos underwear), Because like it or not, most CT/MT players 
can't stand virus or the changes done by TNE to the mililieu as well 
as the rules system.  Personally, I have no problems with Virus, but 
I can't stand Dave Nilsen as a writer.  Most of the later TNE 
sourcebooks looked a little too much like Dave Nilsen's personal ego 
trips.  Heck, there're are a lot of CT people who thought 
the Rebellion was a bad idea...

2) CT/MT/T4

Since T4 is going to have a rules system which is drawing heavily 
from CT & MT, with the addition of a lot of good ideas from other 
materials put out, the rules systems will at least be similar enough, 
to have intelligible Technogeek discussions, even if the Eras will be 
widely disparate.

I think TNE is just a different animal.  In some ways, it is 
ironically enough, the most complete set of Traveller rules ever put 
out, but they're just so radically different from what came before, 
and what is apparently going to come after, that the 2 are just a 
little too incompatible to coexist.  I subscribe to both mailing 
lists, and will probably continue to subscribe to whatever number of 
mailing lists come out of the smoke after August.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 03:35:05 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Survey: Option 6
Message-ID: <960415033503_191330662@emout07.mail.aol.com>

"As before"


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:47:32 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: New Traveller
Message-ID:  <9604151147.aa06476@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

    I think the main problem with all this new editions is, that if the
old stuff is just revised or marginaly changed, after each edition
there are less buyers, because some of the old fans like the changes
and some not. The ones that like them buy it, the ones that don't leave
it. 
    The only way to attract new people, is to do something innovative. 
I think reverting to the old rules would just make all the
people that hated TNE happy and all that loved it hatred and would just
be a TNE for the other part of Traveller fans.
    If the new traveller edition (TAT: Traveller Another Try?) should
be successful, some really NEW ideas have to be incorporated. Not just old
stuff mixed around and warmed up. 
    The main problem is to come up with the good ideas, but I think it
should be possible.

    Thomas Kathmann

------------------------------

Date: 	Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:52:18 +0200
From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, XBoat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: T4 name (was Arden)
Message-ID: <17246c00@pc173.qsp.co.uk>

     Iain,
     
     Surely that should be:
     
     Traveller IV: A New Hope     ;-)
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
          
     ---------------------------------------------------------------
          
          Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 13:10:00 PDT
          From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
          To: "'tml'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>, "'xboat'" <xboat@MPGN.COM>
          Subject: Arden
          Message-ID: <316EB8BE@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>
          
          
          Hi folks
          
          [snip]
          
          By the way, in all the discussion about new lists and names for 
          the new incarnation of Traveller, and in the light of the ongoing 
          CT/TNE schism,  I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned:
          
          Traveller 4: The Empire Strikes Back .... ;-)
          
          Cheers
          
          Iain
          
     -----------------------------------------------------------
     
     --
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:15:18 -0300
From: Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TML newsgroup??
Message-ID: <199604151315.KAA02189@catbert.>


"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote

>        Frankly, I think newsgroups stink. The noise ratio is incredibly
>high, and there are too many morons out there. With a mailing list, at
>least, people have to take the effort to subscribe. And even then, you
>occasionally get some jackass who thinks everybody needs to hear about his
>Russian Mail Order Brides scam or some such. I would personally have to vote
>_against_ a newsgroup at this point.

David, I agree completely - with one possibe exception.  If Marc Miller &
Co. were to run a moderated news group to deal with questions and support as
a semi-offical house organ, that would be a nice addistion to the existing
resourses -- but hardly a replacement for the TML.  A lot of web sites are
also now running thread-like discussions which could also be used for such a
purpose, but are likewise spam resistan.

Again, I'd like to see this for the sake of advertising and public support
on the net -- the mailing lists seem to me to be the best venue for public
discussion.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 07:55:42 -0800
From: aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Lists and T4
Message-ID: <v01540a01ad981f151cc9@[137.229.100.53]>

I know that, personally, I *WILL* switch to T4 as soon as I can. I will
probably not subscibe to the resultant TNE support lists, as I neither line
nor accept virus as presented, nor the TNE Rules, nor the sarcastic style
of the TNE Rulebooks and Sourcebooks, nor the ^%*%^& Humanicentric approach
(IE: Alien PC's are just men in sutis, so why even try to make them feel
alien at all? as presented in H&I).

A pc survived 4 shots from a PGMP-13 at ranges measured in centimeters; he
dropped from initiative loss, and had no serious wounds at all, and was
wearing 8pt combat armour. That was three sessions ago. Last session, we
converted back to MT. I won't use GM's Fiat to kill a heroic PC, but should
the system and weapons they know they're facing be sufficient, so be it! I
was unable to kill PC's without resorting to GM's Fiat or unreasonable
situations under TNE.

Also, before you think me totally daft, I was using D10's rather than the
specified D6's for TNE damage, and using the Shock and knockdown rules.
Nobody PC/NPC was subjected to sudden death rules due to player demand. TNE
just isn't realistically leathal as far as cinematic campaigning; I prefer
Epic Novel feel, where GUNS CAN KILL QUICKLY.

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:54:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: New Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <199604151554.LAA14905@mag1.magmacom.com>


If there's one thing I dislike about xboat/traveller, it's when people 
post to both lists. Ah, but I digress...

Perhaps we should have a third list: tne

xboat would remain for CT/MT
tne would cover, you got it, tne
traveller would cover the most recent version of trav, plus any 
miscellanous (sp?) traffic, like flame wars on asteroid throwing
and such.

This would give a separate list for each set of rules/background.

Also, specifying that all common stuff would go to traveller would
save me from reading the same messages twice...

Ethan

PS. I've update the Java Sector viewer. You can now view the entire
Marches! http://www.magmacom.com/~ehenry/traveller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:44:33 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TML newsgroup??
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960415204433.006a34c8@central.TanSoft.COM>

Les Howie wrote:
>"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote
>
>>        Frankly, I think newsgroups stink. The noise ratio is incredibly
>
>David, I agree completely - with one possibe exception.  If Marc Miller &
>Co. were to run a moderated news group to deal with questions and support as
>a semi-offical house organ, that would be a nice addistion to the existing
>resourses -- but hardly a replacement for the TML.  A lot of web sites are
>also now running thread-like discussions which could also be used for such a
>purpose, but are likewise spam resistan.

The news group idea wont work for a couple of reasons.  First, based on the
amount of traffic this list generates, moderation would be a pretty much
full time job.  That job has to pretty much be done by someone with a Unix
shell.  I don't think AOLers can do the moderation thing (if I am wrong,
please correct me there).  This is a pretty expensive thing for a company
who is going to be treading on tight profit margins for some time (to
dedicate a body to dealing with a moderated list).

Secondly, the news group creation process is difficult.  Unless we wanted to
be in the ALT.* hierarchy (which I would recommend against), you have to go
through the buracracy.  When all the stuff is done and the votes are taken,
you have to have over 100 more yes votes than no votes.  If everyone on TML
were to vote yes, there are enough of the "don't split rec.games.frp any
more" people to make the vote close enought that it would probably fail.  I
have been involved in most all the new news group creation discussions and
voting processes in my 10 years of nethood, they are ugly and difficult to
deal with.  (Notice I haven't even mentioned the signal to noise ratio yet!!!).

Threading is a nice facility.  But what would be more help is if people
repiled with decent subject lines instead of :Re: Traveller Digest 509.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- s:++ a34 w+ !v C++>++++ UU++++$ P---
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | L+ E--- W+++ N+++ o K-  w+ O- M-- V-- PS+ PE 
Contrary to popular belief,  | (-po+) Y-- PGP- t++ !5>++ X-- R+++ tv+++ b DI+++
I don't know what I'm doing. | D G+ e++ h---- r+++ y++++ (Geek Code 3.14)


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 659
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 660

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) What I like about Traveller (all versions)
	by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
  2) Re: Lists and T4
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  3) Re: TL pricing
	by t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
  4) Re: TL pricing
	by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  5) Survey: Option 4
	by Mitch Schwartz <mitch@intersys.com>
  6) Re: A question regarding nuclear damper design.
	by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  7) Traveller Newsgroup
	by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
  8) Re: [T658] List -> Newsgroup?
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 96 00:47:09 EST
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: What I like about Traveller (all versions)
Message-ID: <199604160554.WAA14284@usr4.primenet.com>

Classic Traveller: I liked its simplisity, an adventure could created and
modified 	Quickly. The Antebellum Period provided a stable enviorment to setup
	campains. The JTAS was a good source for adventure ideals and 	expermently
rules.
Mega Traveller: DGP's Task System can'nt be beat for its easy of use and
	flexiblity.
New Era Traveller: I am one of those wierd persons that liked it. The best thing
	about it, is you can design your own weapons. The idea of having 	different
campian settings was basicly sound. There was just no outside 	support. Though I
liked the Regency, I couldn't stand the Coalition. The 	whole setting was so
onesided. I would liked to have been the Tech Priest 	preventing the infidels
from violating the Oracle of Knowledge 	(9/fib c	omputer).




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:50:34 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Lists and T4
Message-ID:  <9604160950.aa01293@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman) wrote:

>A pc survived 4 shots from a PGMP-13 at ranges measured in centimeters; he
>dropped from initiative loss, and had no serious wounds at all, and was
>wearing 8pt combat armour. That was three sessions ago. Last session, we
>converted back to MT. I won't use GM's Fiat to kill a heroic PC, but should
>the system and weapons they know they're facing be sufficient, so be it! I
>was unable to kill PC's without resorting to GM's Fiat or unreasonable
>situations under TNE.

Sorry, but the pc was extremely lucky. If You don't roll an outstanding 
success You should interpret the shot as a near miss (for Plasma/Fusion guns)
or a bare hit(for bullet weapons) just touching the skin of the target.
And, as in reality, in TNE the most hits are of this type.(I have a table
about the percentage of people killed by bullets in WWII, and over 50%
survived HEAD shots. I know someone, who was hit by a bullet to the
head, the bullet travelled between his head and his helmet along his
upper head and left. There is still a visible scare, but he suffered just
a scratch wound from a head shot(something that almost never happens in
TNE). 

About the "You can't miss in point blank range". I know of an incident, 
where a soldier with a LATW missed a Tank at 5 metres, because he was 
so stunned by the gigantic mass of metal appearing just before him.
Another thing: If someone fires at true short range(ie below 2
metres or so) I rule an automatic outstanding success if the shot hits.
Also at this distance, weapons are usually pointed at the head. Also,
please don't cry if the system doesn't work if You ignore some rules
(ie sudden death). I can't understand it, You are saying
"Oh the pc's can't die suddenly in the TNE system, and we just removed
the sudden death rule..."
The sudden death rule is the most realistic approach to gun fire damage
I've ever seen, because people die seldom of blood loss or damage
that adds up(if first aid is available of course) but of shots to
liver, heart, brain... Of course, there still is the 10 year old girl
that survived a shot into the liver, but it is not possible to include
that much luck into a RPG.

And if You don't want Your pc's to be so tough, don't give them 
battle dress.
Of course I don't want to say that You have to like the new rules and
they are great and glorious, but I don't think its fair to blame a rules
system for not working if You're removing some rules from it.
I, presonally never got along with the MT rules system and after I bought
the MT rules, read them, played one session,I threw them in the dust bin
(I'm serious) and waited for a new traveller edition. We played Twilight 
2000 a lot and after TNE was out we liked it. The TNE combat system is 
much more realistic than the MT system(just compare the to hit 
propabilities of both systems with the propabilities to hit with 
real weapons). Of course that does not mean it's better (this is just
a matter of taste) but I use either a realistic rule system or use 
coins for random decisions(the most simple , easiest to use and the
only really fair rules system I know. Pehaps a recommendation 
for the new Traveller rules :-) )

Sorry of getting this stupid rules bashing stuff in here, but I could
not resist.

Thomas Kathmann


 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:31:31 +0100 (BST)
From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL pricing
Message-ID: <S9604160831.AA19279@sysc.abdn.ac.uk>


however if the 8086 example was taken
the prices would fall but after a hundred or so years rise
because it would become a collectors item for some people.
And it would become more and more rare due to the discontinued line.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:56:53 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL pricing
Message-ID: <01I3LE20K6LE8Y544C@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 14-APR-1996 21:29:32.33
To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: TL pricing

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 00:21:56 -0400
From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Subject: Re: TL pricing
Sender: traveller@MPGN.COM
 
> Once upon a time Phil McGregor wrote:
> 
> > I (and presumably *everyone* on this - and the sister - list) have been
> > complaining about this for *years*. But this opens the whole can of worms -
>> such a TL/15 version of a TL/12 computer would be *cheaper* as well. And that
> > brings up the whole problem of the severely disfunctional tech-economy
> > relationship in Traveller.
> 

Since the tech in traveller is grouped by the specs it meets, that's
what you need to look at.

So why would we expect a computer manufacturer on a TL15 world to make
a computer (using TL15 tech) that has does a fraction of what their top
of the line does, but takes up much more room?  At the very least you
could allow that even if it were the same price as it would be at TL12,
it should at least be the smaller size at all times if made at a higher
TL.

-Merrick
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Out in the boonies it might be very handy to have systems that are lower
tech to allow for easier maint. & repair. So, a real T-9 computer might
sometimes be preferred over a T-15 system of equal capability.


Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:47:36 -0400
From: Mitch Schwartz <mitch@intersys.com>
To: charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca, xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Survey: Option 4
Message-ID: <96Apr16.110536edt.20491@gateway.intersys.com>

>4. Leave lists as are, and discuss New Traveller on either/both.  This 
>would mean two lists, one for CT/MT/NT, and another for TNE/NT.

Frankly, this is what you'll end up with anyway.  Neither the populations 
of Xboat or TNE will be able to stop themselves from speculating, 
which they will do in a vaccuum.

I vote for option 5 (one list), but I could not bear the resulting canon/
mechanics fights for the "one true way".  And certainly, at this point, 
there is no reason to split off another list for T4 (another vote; I document 
Windows NT for a living; if you must, then 4T).  There is not enough grist 
for the mill.

mitch

Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more
difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place.
                    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Official:                                                Unofficial:
mitch@intersys.com                     Ted7@world.std.com
                                                     http://world.std.com/~Ted7


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:07:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: Henric Ahlrot <henric.ahlrot@gdc.stud.gu.se>
Cc: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: A question regarding nuclear damper design.
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960416160118.16473C-100000@atlas.sheridanc.on.ca>


To Mr. Arholt:
   I have submitted your question to the Traveller Mailing List: they are 
   more able to answer your question than I am.

   If you are not a current member of TML, I recommend that you join for 
   the latest and greatest in Traveller information.  To join, send the 
   message

     subscribe traveller <your name>

   to listproc@mpgn.com.  Make sure that the 'subscribe' message is in 
   the first line of the body of your messsage, not the subject line.
   
To TML:
   I have forward Mr. Ahlrot's query to you: please respond to both TML 
   and his email address also, as he may not be a member of the List.

On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Henric Ahlrot wrote:

> Dear mr. Plummer,
> 
> Greetings from Sweden. I am a relative newcommer to Traveller and I have a
> question regarding the design and use of nuclear dampers. In the "Rules of
> Play"-book in BL, on page 20-21, it is stated that "Nuclear damper turrets,
> although relatively compact and inexpensive, are limited to firing on only
> one missile per turn. Larger damper installations may conduct defensive
> fire against all missiles that fire on the ship during the turn." My
> question is about these "Larger damper installations...". Does the cited
> statement indicate that a _single_ large internally mounted ND is able to
> disable an essentially unlimited number of missiles each turn _or_ is there
> a limit? If so, what?
> 
> I hope you can answer as soon as possible.
> 
> Cheerio,
> 
> Henric Ahlrot/Gothenburg, Sweden     ;-)
> E-mail: henric.ahlrot@gdc.stud.gu.se
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 21:21 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller Newsgroup
Message-ID: <memo.523891@cix.compulink.co.uk>


Actually, I'd prefer this to the list. If nothing else, it'd raise the
profile of Traveller, and bring in people who didn't know about the list
(we are rather exclusive).

---===---
Andrew Boulton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 17:06:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T658] List -> Newsgroup?
Message-ID: <8BEC402.010007263A.uuout@execnet.com>


T::>Just a thought ( he says donning his Battledress ) but why don't we
 ::>finally get a Traveller newsgroup set up. It would certainly make
 ::>thread following a lot easier ( my biggest gripe with the current
 ::>lists ). I can understand that in the past a mailing list was probably
 ::>the only way to bring in people on the proprietary networks, but now
 ::>that they all seem to be providing Internet access is this still a
 ::>problem? If it is then I know that you can have combined
 ::>list/newsgroups.

 Ick, no!, unless we go to a moderated newsgroup - and I don't know
 who should be the moderator; Rob has enough to do!

 Unmoderated newsgroups have a very low signal-to-noise ratio; the
 rec.games.frp hierarchy is probably the worst in this respect
 outside the alt hierarchy (and even perhaps within it, except for
 alt.sex.*).  I certainly don't want to see my favorite source for
 Traveller material inundated with the "RPG as the tool of Satan"
 thread, and the "points-vs-random" character generation thread,
 and the "realism-vs-cinematicism" thread, and so on.  Mailing
 lists are good; digested, you save easily 30% on nonduplication of
 headers; undigested, you get all of the benefits of a newsgroup
 without the noise.

 If the lists are killed in favor of a newsgroup, I guarantee that
 there _will_ be a list set up shortly thereafter - I'll do it
 myself!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 Now, as far as future organization of the lists goes, I think that
 a hybrid of two suggestions I've seen would be best:

 1) Broadly, there are two classes of list for discussing _game_
 _mechanics_: One for TNE, and one for !TNE.  The four systems
 _are_ two different animals; it makes sense to separate
 game-mechanical issues.

 This is where the minutiae of reality-checks in the rules and
 supplements (such as FF&S) would be pored over, and where the
 discussions about real-world physics, chemistry, and sociology
 (and any other hard or soft science you can put a name to) would
 rage.  Also, extended character generation procedures would be
 here.  No *.advocacy-style \flammage\, though.  It reduces S/N.

 2) Plot/Source materials:  One list, with a set of fairly
 well-defined subject flags, covering all games, since source
 material, written properly, need not be system-specific.
 Occasionally, some system-specific material will have to sneak in
 (for example, describing tasks in an adventure scenario), but,
 properly written, this will use descriptive language (a la the MT
 task system, i.e., "difficult: gun combat") rather than mechanical
 descriptions (a la CT, i.e., "8+ to hit, DM +gun combat, DM
 -target armour).  Such will scope out the "feel" of the task, and
 it will be easily translated into die rolls for any of the
 Traveller systems, and even into non-Traveller systems played with
 the Traveller background (GURPS:Traveller, or SR2020-Traveller, or
 even TD&D, anyone?).

 This is where discussions about the history of the various
 \milieux\ would be discussed, and where things like RICE Papers,
 campaign writeups, adventure nuggets, and session anecdotes would
 be posted.

 Fifty of these posts are worth a buck.  You're welcome to 'em.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  They wouldn't come here in strange alien forms.


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 660
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 661

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 660	by Paragon369@aol.com
  2) Re: A question regarding nuclear damper design.	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  3) Taking my list away	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
  4) RE: TRAVELLER digest 660	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  5) reply to Thomas Kathmann	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
  6) Re: Newsgroup vs Mailing list.	by Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
  7) Burst fire in TNE - Difficulty levels	by Poseidon <Dave.Robertson@newcastle.ac.uk>
  8) TL/price (long)	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  9) Re: Newsgroup vs Mailing list.	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
 10) RE: TRAVELLER digest 660	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:11:23 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 660
Message-ID: <960416231123_192614948@emout10.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-16 21:50:05 EDT, you write:

<< 
Actually, I'd prefer this to the list. If nothing else, it'd raise the
profile of Traveller, and bring in people who didn't know about the list
(we are rather exclusive).

---===---
Andrew Boulton >>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
A fairly obvious question presents itself.  

    Why not create a newsgroup AND keep the list going?

This may seem foolish and double effort on the part of all concerned, but
look at it this way.... Traveller has enjoyed a pretty good following in it's
years.... but game systems like D&D have been positively meteoric in their
growth.  Why?  As Andrew stated in his post, it's a matter of profile or
visibility... read that as good advertisement.....  The fantasy style games
have gotten good press over the years from various sources... but just how
much press have the sci-fi games gotten??  None that I can remember.... 
Maybe Andrew here is on to something that we should take a good hard look
at... maybe this is the wedge that our particular type of system needs to
slide into that sci-fi universe out there.... I wonder.... would Sci-Fi Buzz
on the Sci-Fi channel be interested in the New Traveller???   Couldn't hurt
to find out....  Marc?<g>

Russ


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:15:21 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: henric.ahlrot@gdc.stud.gu.se
Subject: Re: A question regarding nuclear damper design.
Message-ID: <9604170515.AA15291@Rt66.com>

 
> > Greetings from Sweden. I am a relative newcommer to Traveller and I have a
> > question regarding the design and use of nuclear dampers. In the "Rules of
> > Play"-book in BL, on page 20-21, it is stated that "Nuclear damper turrets,
> > although relatively compact and inexpensive, are limited to firing on only
> > one missile per turn. Larger damper installations may conduct defensive
> > fire against all missiles that fire on the ship during the turn." My
> > question is about these "Larger damper installations...". Does the cited
> > statement indicate that a _single_ large internally mounted ND is able to
> > disable an essentially unlimited number of missiles each turn _or_ is there
> > a limit? If so, what?

Unfortunately, they chose not to address this in Fire Fusion and Steel.
I started on some rules for making large damper installations (largely
based on the meson screen (MS) design rules in FF&S---the meson screens
should really just be a subset of dampers.

It basically required using the MS design rules in FF&S, then converting
the PV to a Damper Screen Value (DV).  You'd get a certain number of DMs
to apply to attacks at a base level of Difficult depending on the DV---I
haven't followed through on the actual conversion (I'd like it to
default to something like the turrets published for turret sized
dampers) factor yet since GDW went belly up.

The alternative is to wait for the new traveller rules to answer your
question :-)

Regards,
	Merrick

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 96 02:06:07 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Taking my list away
Message-ID: <960417060607_100326.446_JHF66-1@CompuServe.COM>


>> Just a thought ( he says donning his Battledress ) but why don't we finally
get a Traveller newsgroup set up. It would certainly make thread following a lot
easier ( my biggest gripe with the current lists ). I can understand that in the
past a mailing list was probably the only way to bring in people on the
proprietary networks, but now that they all seem to be providing Internet access
is this still a problem? If it is then I know that you can have combined
list/newsgroups.<<

Without being impolite about it - bugger off! I like the list approach, because
of two reasons; 1) I don't read my digests at my PC, by and large, but dump the
ASCII to my lappie for later perusal and 2) despite my liking CIS - it's my
place! - its' Internet access sucks, even now. The maker of my access s/w is
working on a newsgroup widget, but I ain't holding my breath.

The list format may not be ideal for the hard Internet jockeys, but it _is_
accessible to all of us. The same is not true of a newsgroup.

HWF


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 09:49:00 PDT
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER digest 660
Message-ID: <31752350@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>



aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote
(re the idea of a Traveller newsgroup)
>Actually, I'd prefer this to the list. If nothing else, it'd raise the
>profile of Traveller, and bring in people who didn't know about the list
>(we are rather exclusive).

IMHO a move to a newsgroup would be disastrous, due to
the amount of extraneous crap that comes floating into
every newsgroup which I read.  It's a pleasure to read
TML/xboat without having to wade through piles of
messages trying to get you into pyramid selling, telling
you that Satan is your overlord, telling you that Rush
Limbaugh is God/Satan or how the true destiny of the
world lies with the Aryan race.

In a way a move to USENET would decrease rather
than increase exclusivity. Many people still only have
e-mail access to the internet.  I'd like to wait and see
what T4 (Travel Harder) is like before deciding how
the mailing lists should be structured, but I would
certainly oppose a move to Spam Heaven aka USENET
news.

 jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN) wrote:

> Occasionally, some system-specific material will have to sneak in
 >(for example, describing tasks in an adventure scenario), but,
 >properly written, this will use descriptive language (a la the MT
 >task system, i.e., "difficult: gun combat") rather than mechanical
 >descriptions (a la CT, i.e., "8+ to hit, DM +gun combat, DM
 >-target armour).  Such will scope out the "feel" of the task, and
 >it will be easily translated into die rolls for any of the
 >Traveller systems, and even into non-Traveller systems played with
 >the Traveller background (GURPS:Traveller, or SR2020-Traveller, or
 >even TD&D, anyone?).

I think that it would be very useful if, when T4 comes out and we've
all had a chance to digest the rules, the participants of whatever
mailing lists exist work together to produce some sort of generic
Traveller descriptors which could be used in scenarios etc
prepared for the mailing list in order to make them system
compatible.  I'm thinking about a common system like Jeff is
outlining above that would cover skill levels, task difficulty etc.
In my opinion this would make submissions more attractive to
all members of the list, whatever their chosen ruleset. Obviously,
there may be the odd thing which by its nature is specific to one
system, but I feel that a generic approach would be useful for all
Traveller fans, as opposed to TNE fans, CT fans etc.  I'm not
suggesting anything complex; there's no need to rewrite the rules,
just a simple, elegant workable system.

This beats leaving it to people to convert stats themselves,as this
predisposes ownership and/or knowledge of all the rulesets, which
many may not have.

In my opinion (puts on blue helmet) this would help bridge the
sometimes silly divide which exists between the advocates of
TNE and CT (and presumably T4 when it arrives)

Any thoughts?

Iain Rowan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:30:31 +0000
From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: reply to Thomas Kathmann
Message-ID: <199604170930.KAA24659@cheviot.ncl.ac.uk>

Well if I shot at someone iwth a PGMP-13 and missed or they survived 
I'd be very unhappy, the PGMP-13 has ALWAYS been overkill when firing 
at lightly armoured troops, plasma is not deflected by bone and 
sinews as bullets can be, I'm afraid super heated plasma is going to 
very traumatic on contact, even with troops in battle dress. To 
survive one round from a PGMP could be concidered fortunate, to 
survive must be an act of God! At least in Striker/snapshot the next 
three shots would have been a waste of time and effort, as you'd be 
firing at a pair of smoking boots.
Sorry, i forgot I'm ment to be nice to you TNE boys, but just 
sometimes even when us retronerds try to bury the hatchet you still 
won't leave it alone. So once more, let's all get excited about T4 
and forget our various differences about who's rules are shinier than 
who's.

"Age and treachery will always over come youth and optimism"
Cheers
Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:40:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Newsgroup vs Mailing list.
Message-ID: <199604170540.AAA28626@yavin.vindaloo.com>

> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:44:33 -0400
> From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: TML newsgroup??
> Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960415204433.006a34c8@central.TanSoft.COM>
> 

[snip]

> The news group idea wont work for a couple of reasons.  First, based on the
> amount of traffic this list generates, moderation would be a pretty much
> full time job.  That job has to pretty much be done by someone with a Unix
> shell.  I don't think AOLers can do the moderation thing (if I am wrong,
> please correct me there).  This is a pretty expensive thing for a company
> who is going to be treading on tight profit margins for some time (to
> dedicate a body to dealing with a moderated list).

[snip]

> Threading is a nice facility.  But what would be more help is if people
> repiled with decent subject lines instead of :Re: Traveller Digest 509.
> 

I'll vote for mailing list here. The knowledge that you're responding
to a smaller audience seems to keep people of the soapbox unless they
have something to say. It would be nice if the messages could be
broken out so that one could respond to them one by one. You had said
that you were changing from/?to? majordomo soon. Is that completed
yet?

Chris

P.S. Take a peek at the subject line

--
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                         For pgp key finger: <chilton@cluster.mcs.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:58:38 +0100 (BST)
From: Poseidon <Dave.Robertson@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Burst fire in TNE - Difficulty levels
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91-941213.960417154827.11930A-100000@aidan.ncl.ac.uk>

Dear All,

I was looking at the rulebook for TNE recently, and came back to 
something that still nags at me. For burst fire of automatic weapons, 
they use the Impossible task level, if I remember correctly. The example 
states rolling something like 25 dice, and getting good odds on rolling 
at least a couple of 1s to hit. A friend of mine(who plays) is in the 
British army, a SAW gunner, and said that he found it easy to walk fire 
onto a target, even at long range, because of the relative lack of movement. 

I would tend to agree. Does anyone else think that this is wildly 
innacurate? As far as I can remember, the Impossible task was made, 
regardless of distance to target. If I've managed to confuse myself 
again(readin' those darn books - knew it would do more harm than good) 
I'd appreciate someone reiterating the correct rules.

As far as T4 goes, a separate list would be my vote, as I've seen a lot 
of infighting over CT/MT and TNE on BOTH lists. My advice would be, if 
you don't like it, don't use it. A newsgroup for Traveller would be OK, 
if moderated. Unmoderated? A big nono.

Just my 0.02Cr,

Dave.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:06:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: TL/price (long)
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9604171350.A7127-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>

	I haven't weighed in on this issue before because I've been too busy 
doing gradual student stuff.  As it turns out though, the project I've 
been working on might be relevant to the discussion.
	A simple model like the JTAS one that Merrick brought up may be a
useful rule of thumb for game playing, if you like its outcomes, but it's
going to be hard for some people to suspend disbelief and accept it.  The
two examples that have been used here on the list illustrate the situation
well.
	A TL 6 autopistol and an 80286 microprocessor have both been 
brought up.  One would expect that an autopistol like a .45, the design 
for which has been around most of this century, wouldn't be very 
different built at its origninal TL6 or today's TL8.  So why should it be 
more expensive when built at a higher TL, as some rules suggest it should?  
For the 80286, people have said that for the same price we used to pay 
for the 286, we can now buy something many times more powerful, which is 
an argument for why prices should drop with TL, holding performance 
constant.  The differenece between these two items is that one is a 
"mature" technology while the other is not.
	This is where the project I've been working on comes in.  It's
part of a study of technological change and pricing in the auto industry. 
What the study has found is that, in constant dollars, the price of a
domestic automobile in the U.S. dropped precipitously between 1910 and
1940.  From 1940-1975 the price was totally flat, but from 1975 to today,
the price has begun to climb noticably again.  The explanation for this is
that in the pre-war period, the automobile was not a mature technology,
and product and process innovations were continually being made that
simultaneously increased quality and lowered price. After 1940, the auto 
was a mature technology and little about it changed, so prices stayed 
constant.  Since the late 70s, cars have become increasingly 
sophisticated and luxurious, so their price has gone up.  
	The meat of our project was determining auto prices over the same
period for a _constant level of quality_.  We found that during the early
years, prices for a given level of quality dropped dramatically, and have
been flat ever since.
	What does all this have to do with Trav?  It shows that after an 
initial drop, prices for a good should be constant with regard to 
technolgy.  Your autopistol, a mature technology, will cost no more or 
less to produce in 1996 than it did in 1946.  The microprocessor, on the 
other hand, is still not a mature technology.  It is in that period of 
precipitous drops in price with equally large improvements in quality.  
Presumably, this will flatten out some time in the future.  That's not to 
say that computing technology won't improve, but it'll be  with something 
other than new versions of the 80x86.  For Trav, I'd suggest that you let 
prices drop for 2 TLs and then hold them steady.
	This doesn't mean that all lower tech goods will be produced at 
higher TL worlds.  Some things will be replaced by higher tech (aka
quality) goods.  Other things will be imported because higher tech worlds 
are better off producing high-tech goods and trading them for low-tech 
goods from low-tech worlds.  On Earth, low-tech countries make clothing 
(a mature technology) and trade it to higher-tech countries for computers 
and such.  This happens because not making clothes frees up hi-tech 
workers to make things that only hi-tech workers can make.  This means 
that a TL12 world may be able to make ground cars just as cheaply as a 
TL8 world, but doesn't, because they make air/rafts instead.  These two 
worlds could swap cars for rafts and both would be better off.  If you've 
had basic economics, this is called "comparative advantage."
	I apologize for this post being so long, but it's a complicated 
subject.  I'll try to respond when I can to questions, comments or 
flames. :-)  If this gets too weird or too non-Trav we can take it to email.

--Muir

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:38:11 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Newsgroup vs Mailing list.
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960417233811.0067dfe4@mail.usa.net>

At 07:06 am 4/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>have something to say. It would be nice if the messages could be
>broken out so that one could respond to them one by one. You had said

        Send "Set Traveller Mail Ack" to listproc@mpgn.com. I've been
reading my messages one by one for quite some time now.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:38:03 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER digest 660
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960417233803.00697408@mail.usa.net>

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote
(re the idea of a Traveller newsgroup)
>Actually, I'd prefer this to the list. If nothing else, it'd raise the
>profile of Traveller, and bring in people who didn't know about the list
>(we are rather exclusive).

        This is _exactly_ why I like the list ... just look at what's
happened when things become less exclusive! Usenet is practically worthless
unless you've plenty of time to sift through all the yammering of morons,
unrelated crossposts, "Get Rich Quick" schemes, etc., etc. Not that I don't
want people to participate, what I want is people who _participate_: who are
willing to talk about the actual subject (in this case, Traveller). The list
does that fine; much better than UselessNet News.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 661
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 662

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Newsgroups vs. Mailing List.	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  2) Re: New Traveller: Buy it or die!	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  3) Vote on Future of TML/XTML	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  4) Re: Newsgroup _and_ list	by Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
  5) Re: TL/price (long)	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  6) Re: Newsgroup _and_ list	by Paragon369@aol.com
  7) Re: TL/price (long)	by Paragon369@aol.com
  8) Re: TL/price (long)	by Paragon369@aol.com
  9) Autofire in TNE	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
 10) Re: TRAVELLER digest 661	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
 11) RE: TRAVELLER digest 661	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
 12) Re: TL/price (long)	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 13) Newsgroup vs list	by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
 14) Re: Newsgroup vs Mailing list.	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 21:58:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Newsgroups vs. Mailing List.
Message-ID: <199604180158.VAA08372@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>

If any one wants to go through the process of creating a news group, more
power to them.  However, this list will remain and as list administrator, I 
will not support any attempts to rationalize the new news groups by claiming
a conversion from an existing mailing list.  As administrator, I have no
intentions on letting this list die.  I was not handed the reigns by the creator
to just close its doors.  This list has a long successful history and I think
it has a long successful future.

Here are my reasons for not supporting the news group idea:

Netnews is out of control.  A full news feed cannot be transmitted over a T1
without falling behind.  Netnews' days are numbered.  Between the web, and
the total amount of worthless spam in the news groups, administrators are
less likely to want to carry netnews.  We receive a restricted feed of just
alt.,comp.,rec., and sci. (less alt.binaries).  Even then, as much as I have 
been a big news advocate for the past 12 years, find myself asking why?

So as diskspace becomes more precious, and so does bandwidth, admins will look
for things to eliminate.  News is at the top of the heap.  If sites stop
having netnews, then our group dies with it.  Mailing lists are more popular
than ever right now because they are not open to spam, they are low bandwidth
and they are effective.

I would like to ask a favor of the subscribers.  Please drop this thread and
return to discussing Traveller.  I have no intention of making any changes
in the lists or creating a new list until the new game takes shape and we have
a clearer picture about its make up.  Any discussion about what to do is very
pre-mature at this point.  Lets wait a few months.  If we let this kind of
thread die, and go back to discussing the game, and traffic looks like it 
warrents it, I will create a special, short term list for discussing the future
(i.e. news.groups) where we can rationally discuss the various options.  I 
like to think of this list as your list, since you are the people that makes
the list, so your opinion is very very important.  But my job as administrator
is to keep things in focus and maintain the lists.  At this point, there is
no need to change things, and there may never be.  Let it die, and we will
fix it when it breaks.

Thanks for your understanding
Rob 

-- 
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- s:++ a34 w+ !v C++>++++ UU++++$ P---
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | L+ E--- W+++ N+++ o K-  w+ O- M-- V-- PS+ PE
Contrary to popular belief,  | (-po+) Y-- PGP- t++ !5>++ X-- R+++ tv+++ b DI+++
I don't know what I'm doing. | D G+ e++ h---- r+++ y++++ (Geek Code 3.14)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 20:40:42 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New Traveller: Buy it or die!
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960418024042.0067ea70@mail.usa.net>

At 04:53 pm 4/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>         And before somebody starts threatening to burn me at the stake for
>> not supporting Traveller, and hence condemning it to death: calm down,
>> please. It's only a game, not a religion. If it's something I want, I'll
>> support it. If it's not, I won't. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. If you
>> can explain to me why I should spend money on something I don't want, I'll
>> certainly reconsider. But my real hope is it will be something I like. From
>> what little dribs of rumors I've been hearing, I'm not expecting it, but I
>> can hope. 
>
>	What are do you find disheartening in the various rumors?
>

        Since there are still people out there looking for an excuse to bash
TNE, I'm not going to go into any detail other than to repeat what I've said
all along: I like much of the new rules in TNE and would rather go forward
than backward. Oh, yeah, and I'm a gearhead.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 23:29:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>,
Subject: Vote on Future of TML/XTML
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960417232123.19535A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.  Well, so far I've got about 40 votes in.  According to Rob 
Miracle, that's less than 10% of the people who read these lists (I had 
no idea we were so numerous!).  So this is a final plea for votes before 
I head off for sunny Florida for a week.  Here (for the final time, I 
promise!) are the instructions for voting and the voting options.


VOTING INSTRUCTIONS:

Read the following list of options about the future of TML/XTML mailing
lists, and send me email indicating your preference. My address is:

charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

IMPORTANT:  The message subject line should be "Survey: Option x", where x
is the number of your preferred option.  If you have already sent me a
vote that was not in this format, please send in another and make it clear
in the body of the letter that this is a second vote so I don't count you
twice.  Thanks. Additional comments are welcome, but please make the
subject line as indicated.


VOTING OPTIONS:

1. Leave Traveller and Xboat alone, create new mailing list for New
Traveller.  This would mean three lists, one for CT/MT, one for TNE, and
another for NT.

2. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Xboat.  This would
mean two lists, one for CT/MT/NT and another for TNE.

3. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Traveller.  This
would mean two lists, one for CT/MT, and one for TNE/NT.

4. Leave lists as are, and discuss New Traveller on either/both.  This
would mean two lists, one for CT/MT/NT, and another for TNE/NT.

5. Create single list for all game versions (CT/MT/TNE/NT).

6. Create several lists divided by topic, such as technology, history,
rules, etc.

7. Create new list for TNE, discuss New Traveller on Traveller, and leave
Xboat for CT/MT.  This is similar to option 1, except that the TML
retains its charter as a forum for discussing the latest Traveller version.

8. Other (please specify).


Just a reminder: I'm "closing the poll" April 30th, so get those votes in
soon.

Happy Travellin',
Charles.

PS. I don't suppose anyone on the list is going to the ARVO conference?

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 21:05:44 -0800
From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Newsgroup _and_ list
Message-ID: <3175CDA8.3654@concentric.net>

Responding to Russ:

>>Why not create a newsgroup AND keep the list going?<<

Excellent idea.  There's _no_ reason why we of the TML should try to be 
the exclusive kibbitzers of Traveller.  There is already AOL, HIWG and 
other forums that discuss the game.  Participation would be voluntary 
and I see no reason why not, as long as a sponsor was available.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 23:07:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/price (long)
Message-ID: <9604180507.AA29633@Rt66.com>

> different built at its origninal TL6 or today's TL8.  So why should it be 
> more expensive when built at a higher TL, as some rules suggest it should?  
> For the 80286, people have said that for the same price we used to pay 
> for the 286, we can now buy something many times more powerful, which is 
> an argument for why prices should drop with TL, holding performance 
> constant.  The differenece between these two items is that one is a 
> "mature" technology while the other is not.

Would you think (using your model of dropping prices for 2 TLs) that the
drop would be very steep?  One problem I see with this concept is the
relation of this to TL.  Some of these technologies change with TL, so
while the tool may be used for the same purpose it might be a completely
different technology---does this make any sense?

_Within_ a TL this seems pretty likely to me, but, hmmm.  Take power
production for example.  Power production would get cheaper once fusion
was common enough (we'll assume this :-).  Once damper tech comes
online, it's a whole new ballgame since they'd have direct control of
the forces in question instead of the earlier brute-force methods.  So I
guess at critical points like these you'd just assume that the once
mature technology  is not anymore, and prices will drop again for a few
TLs then flatten out.  Seems reasonable.

I guess the computer example sticks in my craw since computers have
always (IMHO) been broken in traveller.  The problem as I see it is that
once a technology becomes "mature" improvements will be small to
non-existant, the trick is to set the points at which a given technology
ceases to grow---FF&S devotes some page space to showing when various
technologies come online, but doesn't bother with where they flatten
out.  Once computer tech flattens out, the only difference between a TLx
and TLy computer would be capacity---you should be able to build a
model9 at TL12 if things flatten out at 12.  Yeesh, what a ramble.


> 	I apologize for this post being so long, but it's a complicated 
> subject.  I'll try to respond when I can to questions, comments or 
> flames. :-)  If this gets too weird or too non-Trav we can take it to email.

I guess I agree with you, but I'm trying to get a grip on it.  It would
seem that a some of the limits need to be dropped in a different places
for different tech.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 01:21:05 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Newsgroup _and_ list
Message-ID: <960418012104_377728749@emout18.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-18 01:06:04 EDT, you write:

<< Excellent idea.  There's _no_ reason why we of the TML should try to be 
the exclusive kibbitzers of Traveller.  There is already AOL, HIWG and 
other forums that discuss the game.  Participation would be voluntary 
and I see no reason why not, as long as a sponsor was available.

--Chris
 >>

I'm glad to see someone agrees with me...  I think Traveller could put up a
real threat to D&D's rulership of the gaming world and I want more gamers to
pay attention to it!  (And hopefully some money to FarFuture and keep our
favorite game alive!)

Any others out there feel the same way we do?
What's the problem with having another venue for Traveller?  Is it expensive?
 Could FarFuture help with any cost?  Could a group of gamers get togather
and help?

Yeah, I know, I'm full of it.... but it ain't brown and smelly.... it's
excitement I'm full of ... this is my first chance to actually 'be in' on the
beginning of something that's had as much impact on as many people as
Traveller has... Just count... I've been doing some counting myself.... and
the numbers are pretty impressive... and world wide...

Let's get this thing going folks.... here or in a newsgroup.... either way,
Traveller is gonna be that much better if we foster an environment of
excitement and expectation for it before it's 'born'.   It'd sure help if we
had some 'press releases' or something to work from... pictures, portions of
text, overviews, etc.... anything to use as tool to tell the other gamers
'what's coming in August'.

Well, I'm climbing off my Traveller soapbox... I'm starting to sound like a
preacher in a tent revival <grin>..... or a cheerleader... <those skirts just
don't fit right...> <grin>

As some of us say....
           KEEP THE FLAME......
                    with the addition of:         TILL DAWN...  (August, of
course!)

Russ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 01:28:19 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/price (long)
Message-ID: <960418012819_377731395@emout10.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-18 01:17:07 EDT, you write:

<< 
I guess the computer example sticks in my craw since computers have
always (IMHO) been broken in traveller.  The problem as I see it is that
once a technology becomes "mature" improvements will be small to
non-existant, the trick is to set the points at which a given technology
ceases to grow---FF&S devotes some page space to showing when various
technologies come online, but doesn't bother with where they flatten
out.  Once computer tech flattens out, the only difference between a TLx
and TLy computer would be capacity---you should be able to build a
model9 at TL12 if things flatten out at 12.  Yeesh, what a ramble. >>

Remember that, even at our tech level here on Earth, we have computerized
systems that are virturally self-reparing... and in some cases,
self-replicating....



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 01:43:00 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/price (long)
Message-ID: <960418014258_377736758@emout07.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-18 01:32:28 EDT, you write:

<< The problem as I see it is that
once a technology becomes "mature" improvements will be small to
non-existant, >>

They had a similar argument around the turn of the century... they thought
that everything that could be invented had been.... just understand that
we're just in this universe and learning all the rules.... and, even in the
3rd Imperium's time, we haven't even scratched the surface of the most
fantastic discoveries..... warp drive, anagathics, antigravity, total
conversion, dimensional travel, who knows?



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 23:04:44 -0800
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Autofire in TNE
Message-ID: <v01540a01ad9b9907f752@[137.229.100.114]>

>I was looking at the rulebook for TNE recently, and came back to
>something that still nags at me. For burst fire of automatic weapons,
>they use the Impossible task level, if I remember correctly. The example
>states rolling something like 25 dice, and getting good odds on rolling
>at least a couple of 1s to hit. A friend of mine(who plays) is in the
>British army, a SAW gunner, and said that he found it easy to walk fire
>onto a target, even at long range, because of the relative lack of movement.

Yup, sounds like you read it the same way I did... and dislike it for the
same reasons.

>I would tend to agree. Does anyone else think that this is wildly
>innacurate? As far as I can remember, the Impossible task was made,
>regardless of distance to target. If I've managed to confuse myself
>again(readin' those darn books - knew it would do more harm than good)
>I'd appreciate someone reiterating the correct rules.

Remember, though, that under TNE, anyone with strength+skill of 4+ can
succeed on an impossible task, where under MT, Impossible was truly
impossible without AT LEAST a level 4 in skill (Specialist level), roughly
equivalent to a tne level of 8...

I used the autofire procedure as written, but substituted +2 DfMd instead
of changing to impossible.


William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:47:43 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 661
Message-ID:  <9604180947.aa03400@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

Bob Brown <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk> wrote:
>Well if I shot at someone iwth a PGMP-13 and missed or they survived...
Holding breath...
>...lightly armoured troops...
Thinking about battledress = lightly armored ...

>...So once more, let's all get excited about T4
>and forget our various differences about who's rules are shinier than
>who's.
So be it, the discussion seems to be senseless in both ways. Perhaps
rules systems depend to much on personal opinion that any discussion
about them is void. In fact, I think the only applicable definition
for a rules system someone likes is, that it produces results he likes.

ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk> wrote:
>I think that it would be very useful if, when T4 comes out and we've
>all had a chance to digest the rules, the participants of whatever
>mailing lists exist work together to produce some sort of generic
>Traveller descriptors which could be used in scenarios...
This would be great, but impossible. Look at the following
example:


  1-         Oo.        Oo                                   
   |
0.9-         *+-        *+.
   |                      
0.8-                     -                                
   |                                   
0.7-                                *O
   |                                  
0.6-                                +o 
   |                                 
0.5-                                          
   |                                   
0.4-                                .-       
   |                                           *      
0.3-                                           + 
   |                                           
0.2-                                           O-   
   |                                                      *+  
0.1-                                           o          
   |                                                      - 
  0-----------|----------|----------|----------.----------|
            Easy      Average   Difficult Formidable Impossible
            Simple    Routine

* TNE, Asset 14
+ TNE, Asset 12
- TNE, Asset  8


. MT, Skill 3
o MT, Skill 4
O MT, Skill 5


The MT and TNE skills where selected in a matter, that at
a task level of difficult both produce about the same
propability. At this example we can see the following:

1)         Skill increase    Probability increase  Probability/skill
            at difficult       at difficult            increase
   TNE 12-14    x1.17             x1.17                   1.0
   MT   4-5     x1.25             x1.17                   0.936         
   TNE  8-12    x1.5              x1.5                    1.0
   MT   3-4     x1.333            x1.5                    0.88888666...
Note, while the Propability/Skill increase in TNE is constant, in
MT it is very aehm - weird.

2)                  Propability change
               from Difficult to Formidable
   TNE   14            x0.5
   MT     5            x0.24... 
   TNE   12            x0.5
   MT     4            x0.14...
   TNE    8            x0.5
   MT     3            x0.066...

Note while the propability change from difficult to formidable in
TNE is constant, in MT it is very aehm - weird.


Without 4th degree polynoms and a cray, I think its very difficult to
develop a fast and good conversion.
However, for role playing purposes just renaming MT Formidable into
Impossible (and let the MT task system using referees decide what to
do with Formidable tasks) and using the Formula TNE Asset = 3 x MT Skill
or MT Skill = TNE Asset/3 should be good enough.

Thomas Kathmann
or 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 96 12:45:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: "traveller%mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER digest 661
Message-ID: <31769BBE@pc136>



Russ <Paragon369@aol.com> said:

> The fantasy style games
> have gotten good press over the years from various sources... but just how
> much press have the sci-fi games gotten??  None that I can remember....

I have spent much of the last four years as the science fiction editor for 
Roleplayer Independent (now out of print), and latterly Valkyrie. Both 
magazines being UK-based independent games magazines (Valkyrie is 
distributed in the US via On Military Matters in New Jersey).

In that time I have tried to publish in the magazines all the good Traveller 
submissions which I have received (regardless of which version of Traveller 
it is written for). Around half of the published Traveller material in those 
four years has been written by me, or specially commissioned for a specific 
issue. In that time, I have sent back, unpublished, three submissions (one 
because it appeared to be a direct plagiarism of Paranoia Press' Scouts & 
Assassins book).

We are in the process of preparing a Traveller theme issue to be published 
in time for the European Gen Con at the beginning of September. I asked for 
Traveller articles and scenarios from a number of sources in the UK around a 
month ago - currently I have received one ship design and one scenario (the 
scenario is one of the best I've seen, published or unpublished, for a long 
time).

There are other magazines out there which take Traveller submissions 
(Traveller Chronicle springs to mind).

Russ, you're right when you say that sword & sorcery gets better press than 
SF (hell, even Vampire got better press than SF in Valkyrie in 1995!), but a 
major factor in that has to be the lack of decent, usable submissions.

I hope you'll try to get hold of Valk's Traveller issue (God knows, we need 
a bigger readership to keep us going) - and if you do, I hope you'll enjoy 
it.

Kind Regards

Dave Elrick

dave.elrick@ps.co.uk


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:39:05 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/price (long)
Message-ID: <9604181739.AA19217@Rt66.com>

 
> << The problem as I see it is that
> once a technology becomes "mature" improvements will be small to
> non-existant, >>
> 
> They had a similar argument around the turn of the century... they thought
> that everything that could be invented had been.... just understand that
> we're just in this universe and learning all the rules.... and, even in the
> 3rd Imperium's time, we haven't even scratched the surface of the most
> fantastic discoveries..... warp drive, anagathics, antigravity, total
> conversion, dimensional travel, who knows?

I didn't mean to imply that once a certain technology was mature there
would be no advances _in other technologies that do the same task_.
But if we take, say, computer memory as an example:  At a certain point
semiconductor memory might become mature.  At this point there will
basically be no advance in memory density _with that technology_.
Optical memeory would be a new, and hence not mature technology, memeory
densities would continue to increase, but the technology would be
different.

Traveller usually deals with the operational specs of a technology, not
the actual numbers, so a lot of this gets lost.  We see computers
improving in capabilities (as DMs in combat, basically) but we have no
idea how/why they do.

Jump drive apparently becomes mature by TL15 since we don't see higher
jump numbers after that (do we?  I don't have MT handy so I can't
check).  Warp drive would be a different technology that meets the same
end---FTL travel.

If we talk about maneuver drives it's clearer.  Chemical rockets are
damn near mature right now.  Isps of 450 are about as good as they'll
ever get.  But Mdrives will continue to improve---the technology will
change to fission rockets, then fusion, then thruster plates if you like
those :-)  All are different technologies that become mature in their
own time.

Mature means what I wrote at the top by definition, with respect to
improvements.  If you get a quantum improvement, it'd be because you
found a new technology that did the same job not because you improved
the mature tech (which you can't do).

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 96 20:13 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Newsgroup vs list
Message-ID: <memo.593422@cix.compulink.co.uk>


People without usenet access need not be excluded - groups that echo to
a mailing list (and vice versa) are possible.

True, ngs tend to have a worse signal/noise ration (but then we're not
spam-free here - remember Olga?), but most usenet s/w allows you to pick
which msgs you want to d/l, so you can filter out a lot of the noise.

---===---
Andrew Boulton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:50:14 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Newsgroup vs Mailing list.
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960418195014.006f2f88@central.TanSoft.COM>

At 07:06 AM 4/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> Threading is a nice facility.  But what would be more help is if people
>> repiled with decent subject lines instead of :Re: Traveller Digest 509.
>> 
>
>I'll vote for mailing list here. The knowledge that you're responding
>to a smaller audience seems to keep people of the soapbox unless they
>have something to say. It would be nice if the messages could be
>broken out so that one could respond to them one by one. You had said
>that you were changing from/?to? majordomo soon. Is that completed
>yet?

Nope, real work has had to come first :-(  Any way, you can set your mail
options with listproc to ACK which will make you get each message as a
seperate mail message.  When we switch to majordomo, there will be two lists that you
subscribe to traveller and traveller-digest to determine which flavor you get.
Messages to either list goes to both lists.  Thats just majordomo's way of
dealing with things.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- s:++ a34 w+ !v C++>++++ UU++++$ P---
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | L+ E--- W+++ N+++ o K-  w+ O- M-- V-- PS+ PE 
Contrary to popular belief,  | (-po+) Y-- PGP- t++ !5>++ X-- R+++ tv+++ b DI+++
I don't know what I'm doing. | D G+ e++ h---- r+++ y++++ (Geek Code 3.14)


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 662
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 663

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TL/price (long)	by Paragon369@aol.com
  2) Big guns/fast moving things	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
  3) rules equivalencies	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  4) TLs and prices	by Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
  5) Valk's Traveller Issue	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 21:44:06 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/price (long)
Message-ID: <960418214405_275506554@emout15.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-18 16:00:51 EDT, you write:

<< I didn't mean to imply that once a certain technology was mature there
would be no advances _in other technologies that do the same task_.
But if we take, say, computer memory as an example:  At a certain point
semiconductor memory might become mature.  At this point there will
basically be no advance in memory density _with that technology_.
Optical memeory would be a new, and hence not mature technology, memeory
densities would continue to increase, but the technology would be
different.
 >>
Take this little fact for instance... CD Roms....
I've been following the CD Rom technology since it was being studied.  The
first development gave us the CD Roms that we have today.  The second stage
is due to be released in August, the DVD drives.. they'll start at 4.7
gigabytes!  By 1998 the DVD's will be read / write and have a capacity of 18
gigabytes...   But this is only the second stage...

The third stage, the actual objective of all of the research (CD and DVD
technology were just a 'spin-off' is the 3-D holigraphic storage unit.  The
unit is going to be roughly the size of a matchbox, clear crystal
construction, and have a capacity (at first) of 1 TERRABYTE!  Later systems
will range up to 10 TERRABYTES!!

Now, if these type of advances can occur on modern day earth, what's going to
happen in the future... a future with far, far more people doing research on
a variety of different subjects....??

One can only stand an wonder.... but don't stand too long... or you too will
be obsolete!

<grin>
Russ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:35:04 +0000
From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Big guns/fast moving things
Message-ID: <199604190835.JAA15282@cheviot.ncl.ac.uk>

Just a final note but something to think about. I've a friend and his 
brother back home in my tax haven who used to go hunting rabbits with 
an elephant gun (we have these things left over from the Empire you 
know), they discovered the most effective way to stop a fast moving 
bunny aws not to shoot at it, but to fire at the ground near it, the 
resulting impact would either cause a concusion wave to stun the 
rabbit of else the round would fragment and do bunny in. According to 
my sources though fatalities were quite high in our fluffy tailed 
friends, there normally was not much worth eating, apparantly a 
direct hit would leave a smooking fluffy tail but no rabbit. 
Kinder of like firing plasma/fusion guns at lightly armoured people, 
though let's be honest that's what a RAM GL loaded with Flechette is 
for and a whole lot easier.
Hope I didn't spoil any of your diners, I yet to tell you my sticking 
cordite in bread and throwing it to the sea gulls story.
Cheers
Bob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 96 09:59:00 PDT
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: rules equivalencies
Message-ID: <3177C689@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>

Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de> wrote

(cut mathematical explanations)

>Without 4th degree polynoms and a cray, I think its very difficult to
>develop a fast and good conversion.

What, you mean you don't have a Cray at home?  We get them in
cereal packets here...

>However, for role playing purposes just renaming MT Formidable into
>Impossible (and let the MT task system using referees decide what to
>do with Formidable tasks) and using the Formula TNE Asset = 3 x MT Skill
>or MT Skill = TNE Asset/3 should be good enough.

This is more what I had in mind.  Personally I don't care about
exact equivalencies.  I'd like something very broad and simple
that would not
     a)put off anybody new who comes to the mailng lists
     when T4 comes out
     b)clutter up scenarios etc unecessarily
     c)require the use of polynoms of any degree, colour,
     or flavour.

Broad, wide equivalencies, so you know if a character is useless,
average, good or bloody marvellous in any task which they might
perform or attribute which they might have.  It would give some
discretion to the referee, as rather than attempt an exact conversion
it would allow them to allocate their game stats within a range, so
it would be easy to  customise any scenarios for their game.

I know that there are many of us who subscribe to this list who would,
and could, do this as a matter of course, but there have been a
lot of discussions on the list recently about exclusivity, and the need
to open Traveller up to ensure its success.  I hope T4 brings many
new players into the Traveller fold, and that a number of those
players find their way to the TML and Xboat.  I wouldn't like them
to be put off by seeing lots of useful material in a form they can't
understand because they haven't been around Traveller as long
as the rest of us.


Iain

iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:52:57 +0100 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TLs and prices
Message-ID: <199604191252.OAA07299@ask.diku.dk>

John Muir Macpherson writes:
>	A TL 6 autopistol and an 80286 microprocessor have both been 
>brought up.  One would expect that an autopistol like a .45, the design 
>for which has been around most of this century, wouldn't be very 
>different built at its origninal TL6 or today's TL8.  So why should it be 
>more expensive when built at a higher TL, as some rules suggest it should?  
>For the 80286, people have said that for the same price we used to pay 
>for the 286, we can now buy something many times more powerful, which is 
>an argument for why prices should drop with TL, holding performance 
>constant.  The differenece between these two items is that one is a 
>"mature" technology while the other is not.

This is a very good point and a nice distinction. Just remember that in
Traveller ca. Year 1100 all technologies up to and including TL 14 are
mature technologies. That means that keeping prices constant may not be
so silly after all.

>	What does all this have to do with Trav?  It shows that after an 
>initial drop, prices for a good should be constant with regard to 
>technolgy.  Your autopistol, a mature technology, will cost no more or 
>less to produce in 1996 than it did in 1946.  The microprocessor, on the 
>other hand, is still not a mature technology.  It is in that period of 
>precipitous drops in price with equally large improvements in quality.  
>Presumably, this will flatten out some time in the future.  That's not to 
>say that computing technology won't improve, but it'll be  with something 
>other than new versions of the 80x86.  For Trav, I'd suggest that you let 
>prices drop for 2 TLs and then hold them steady.

This is exactly the way GURPS handles it. Prices are halved at the first
TL after introduction and halved again at the next (And, where applicable,
the size is halved too). After this price and size remains constant.

_Mercenary_ has a rule that states that prices go down by 5-15% for each
TL after introduction, with no upper limit. The rule was not AFAIK carried
forward to _Megatraveller_.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: 19 Apr 96 15:45:06 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Valk's Traveller Issue
Message-ID: <960419194506_100326.446_JHF83-3@CompuServe.COM>


>> I hope you'll try to get hold of Valk's Traveller issue (God knows, we need a
bigger readership to keep us going) - and if you do, I hope you'll enjoy it. <<

Uh, where from? I've never seen a copy! Any distribs in the UK?

HWF


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 663
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 664

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Milieu 0	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  2) Re: rules equivalencies	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  3) Re: Milieu 0	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:09:03 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: FarFuture@aol.com
Subject: Milieu 0
Message-ID: <199604200205.TAA13943@mom.hooked.net>

With the impending release of T4, I find myself most excited by Milieu
0.  For me, the prospect of being there when it all starts gives an
almost unlimited potential for adventure.  I am going to explore a few
of the possibilities that have come to mind in the last few weeks.  A
copy of this is being sent to Marc Miller, in hopes that he might be
able to find something for me to do on the production of this book.

MILIEU 0:  The Sylean Federation was good enough for me!

One thing to consider is the birth pains of the new Imperium.  Despite
Cleon's PR campaign, many Sylean citizens are opposed to the new
government.  This opposition will range from angry editorials to
terrorist bombings.  An important test of the new order is their
reaction to this dissent; do they tolerate it in the name of an open
exchange of ideas, or crush it beneath the Imperial boot?

Many of the early nobles, drawn from the Sylean Navy and Senate, are
given grants of land in areas they already administered.  For most, life
will continue on with the introduction of a new level of social
interaction added to the mix.  There will be those, however, who find
the title an invitation to tyranny.  Some nobles will begin amassing
personal fortunes, start a little "empire-building" of their own, or
just engage in the type of anti-social behavior that has been expected
of the nobility throughout history.

THE SCOUT SERVICE:  The Brave, The Resourceful, The Short Lived

The transformation of the Sylean Survey Office into the Imperial
Interstellar Scout Service is likely to be traumatic.  For centuries,
the Survey had only been called upon to keep the maps up-to-date and
monitor local conditions inside the Federation; now, they are tasked
with exploring the whole of the old Imperium!

I must point out that the Scouts have almost no information about the
area beyond Federation borders.  They may have a vague idea where Earth,
Vland, and Hub are, but beyond that, nothing.  Every system is an
unknown.  (I would like to thank Mr. Miller and Imperium Games for
making the decision not to detail the sectors, leaving that job for the
gamemaster.)

Many Scouts in the first few decades of the Imperium would be drawn from
the edge of Federation space.  Offering the chance for adventure - with
the bonus that if you live long enough, you get to keep the ship you
serve on - will attract the numbers of recruits needed for the huge job
ahead.

The opportunities for a Traveller group are obvious:  Seeking out
strange new worlds, boldly going where no man has gone... oops, don't
want Paramount mad at us..  :)

DIPLOMACY:  How much for just the planet?

One area of Traveller that I always considered sadly neglected was
diplomacy.  As a long time fan of Keith Laumer's "Retief" stories, the
thought of adventures where wits, not firepower, were the solution
intrigues me.

The Third Imperium is going to need diplomats.  As it expands, the
Imperium will contact many cultures that have drifted far from the
cultural legacy left by the Rule of Man.  Since civilization will most
likely survive on the worlds most desirable to the Imperium, skilled
negotiators will be in demand.

This need becomes more pronounced as the Pacification Campaigns draw
near (76 Imperial).  From what I can tell, the Imperium begins its
expansion during a sort of renaissance of interstellar travel.  More and
more, the Scouts are going to run into established, multi-world states,
some of which are going to be decidedly hostile.  Drawing the neutral
worlds into the Imperial fold will be a vital mission, and provides many
good role-playing opportunities for a thoughtful group.

(BTW:  If you have not read Laumer's stuff, do so.  It is some of the
funniest SF around.)

MERCHANTS:  Let's make a deal!

One group who will greet the Imperium with joy are the merchants.
Expansion means more industry, a better economy, and new markets.  This
is especially true for the free traders, who can roam the New Lands
searching for that world reputed to have "diamonds the size of your
fist" sitting around.  A clever enough merchant may find himself
possessor of a title if he persuades an industrial world to sign a trade
agreement with the Imperium.

Many of the "Classic" threats in deep space come alive again.  Pirates?
You'll find them around the smaller groupings of worlds with space
travel.  Hijackings?  How do you think the pirates get their ships?
Skipping?  Hey buddy, space is deep and dark, and the First Bank of
Sylea can't go *everywhere*.

One very nice thing is the lack of a universal monetary system.  PC
traders will have to rely on their shrewdness in business dealings,
bartering for most things found outside the Imperium, with one eye
watching for the Scouts with all their mushy talk about "protecting
native cultures."

THE BIG QUESTION:  Vland and the Pacification Campaigns

One thing has been nagging at me.  When and how does Vland join the
Third Imperium?  It must be a high priority goal for Cleon; gaining
Vland would cement his legitimacy as Emperor.  I imagine that an early
directive to the IISS would read, simply, "Re: Vland - FIND IT!!"

But there is no mention of Vland's joining.  Very odd.

I have a theory:  During the Pacification Campaigns, the Antares Sector
was suddenly offered membership in the Imperium as an Autonomous Region.
One has to wonder why Emperor Artemsus would set such a dangerous
precedent - unless he had run into a much greater threat, one that
required his full attention plus the resources of the Antares area.

What if the IISS had found Vland, and it was also expanding?  Since the
Third Imperium based its legitimacy on the previous two Imperia, the
presence of a vibrant interstellar society claiming to be the Zir Sirkaa
would be most upsetting.  Artemsus would have no choice but to deny the
that this was the true First Imperium reborn.  The Vilani would begin
reminding neutral worlds that the last Solomani-dominated Empire had
left us with the Long Night!  Both sides would face a series of border
incidents, clashes, and provocations that would lead to all-out war.

I believe that this war would mark the end of the Milieu 0 period.
After the conquest of Vland, the Imperium would settle down to "digest"
what it had absorbed.  The citizens will have been Imperial for two or
three generations now, and the borders will have been cleared of
immediate foes.

I am most eager to hear what all of you think.  Comments and questions
are welcome.
# ---------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry           dberry@hooked.net  #
#   Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru  #
#                                                #
#  "Liberty consists in doing what one desires"  #
#                             -John Stuart Mill  #
# ---------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 10:43:56 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: rules equivalencies
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960420164356.00693508@mail.usa.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:05 am 4/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de> wrote
>
>(cut mathematical explanations)
>
>>Without 4th degree polynoms and a cray, I think its very
difficult to
>>develop a fast and good conversion.
>
>What, you mean you don't have a Cray at home?  We get them in
>cereal packets here...
>
>>However, for role playing purposes just renaming MT Formidable
into
>>Impossible (and let the MT task system using referees decide
what to
>>do with Formidable tasks) and using the Formula TNE Asset = 3
x MT Skill
>>or MT Skill = TNE Asset/3 should be good enough.
>
>This is more what I had in mind.  Personally I don't care about
>exact equivalencies.  I'd like something very broad and simple
>that would not
>     a)put off anybody new who comes to the mailng lists
>     when T4 comes out
>     b)clutter up scenarios etc unecessarily
>     c)require the use of polynoms of any degree, colour,
>     or flavour.
>
>Broad, wide equivalencies, so you know if a character is
useless,
>average, good or bloody marvellous in any task which they might
>perform or attribute which they might have.  It would give some

        How about just describing a character's abilities in any
specific area along the lines of "Unskilled, Beginner, Amateur,
Competent, Expert" or some such. These are broad enough
categories that anybody can understand, and then use his/her own
judgement to convert them. Or perhaps other guidelines. For
example, the MT "decoder" could say:

        Unskilled = no skill
        Beginner  = level 0
        Amateur   = level 1
        Competent = level 3
        Expert    = level 5

        'Course, we'd probably have to start posting a monthly
"FAQ" explaining why we're using word descriptions, and how to
convert them to the various systems, but that's not a major
problem.
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 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:54:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Milieu 0
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960420124912.23341C-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

Hoo boy!  Douglas Berry's description, below, did more to make me want 
the T4 system than any of the other things I've read about it.  I must 
admit I didn't give much thought to the implicaions of the Milieu 0 
setting.  Thankfully, Mr. Berry did! :)


On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> With the impending release of T4, I find myself most excited by Milieu
> 0.  For me, the prospect of being there when it all starts gives an
> almost unlimited potential for adventure.  I am going to explore a few
> of the possibilities that have come to mind in the last few weeks.  A
> copy of this is being sent to Marc Miller, in hopes that he might be
> able to find something for me to do on the production of this book.

	I wonder whether any RPg company (heck, any company at all!) has 
ever solicited major input from customers.  It seems to me that the RPG 
industry is fortunate in that virtually all customers tend toward making 
their own rules, settings, characters, etc., whereas typical industries 
(oh, for instance, television manufacturers or what-have-you) have 
customers who are far less involved with their products.
	It's a shame most RPG companies let much of that go to waste.

	Anyway, thank you for the great essay!

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 664
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 665

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Reflec armor
	by Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
  2) newsgroup, no thanks.
	by ibilbao@wintermute.ran.es (Ignacio Bilbao)
  3) Player Participation
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  4) Re: Player Participation
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  5) Re: Player Participation
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:35:36 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: gdw-beta@quark.qrc.com
Subject: Reflec armor
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960421033536.006dc27c@pop.ultranet.com>

Will The New Traveller bring back Reflec armor along with Thruster Plates?

Min/Maxing players wanna know!  Will it make crunchy, crincly noises when you 
move (or is that just the cheap stuff? :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:18:19 +0100
From: ibilbao@wintermute.ran.es (Ignacio Bilbao)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: newsgroup, no thanks.
Message-ID: <199604211518.QAA08007@wintermute.ran.es>

I supose that like me there must be a lot of people in here. People=
 who
only suscribe and read the list, but never (or almost never) send=
 messages
to you. For this reason I prefer digest form intead of newsgroup,=
 it's like
a magazine (a really good magazine if I could say it).
Thanks.

On the other hand I am sending some images to Goran.Damberg@ida.utb.hb.se
(he is compiling a lot of Traveller technology) my effort is on graphics
not on text. So do not disapoint with me not to write.

Sorry for the mistakes.
Grettings from Spain.

Larga y pr=A4spera vida.
Saludos,
Ignacio Bilbao



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 09:13:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Player Participation
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9604210851.A8239-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>


Joe Walsh said: 
> 	I wonder whether any RPg company (heck, any company at all!) has 
> ever solicited major input from customers.  It seems to me that the RPG 
> industry is fortunate in that virtually all customers tend toward making 
> their own rules, settings, characters, etc., whereas typical industries 
> (oh, for instance, television manufacturers or what-have-you) have 
> customers who are far less involved with their products.
> 	It's a shame most RPG companies let much of that go to waste.

	Wouldn't it be nice if Imperium Games included their web address
(once they get one) in the new game?  That way, they could have links to
all the Traveller fan sites and the TML so that new players could access
all of the background, designs, and other support material that Traveller
fandom has generated over the decades.  I would think that it might even
be something of a selling point for new buyers, since there's the
equivalent of several supplements available free on the internet.

--Muir

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 10:49:15 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Player Participation
Message-ID: <1.5.4b12.32.19960421164915.006967c4@mail.usa.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:15 pm 4/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Joe Walsh said: 
>> 	I wonder whether any RPg company (heck, any company at all!)
has 
>> ever solicited major input from customers.  It seems to me
that the RPG 
>> industry is fortunate in that virtually all customers tend
toward making 
>> their own rules, settings, characters, etc., whereas typical
industries 
>> (oh, for instance, television manufacturers or what-have-you)
have 
>> customers who are far less involved with their products.
>> 	It's a shame most RPG companies let much of that go to
waste.
>
>	Wouldn't it be nice if Imperium Games included their web
address
>(once they get one) in the new game?  That way, they could have
links to

        Wouldn't it be nice if they actually talked to us,
instead of restricting it to those already on AOL? Even one-way
(here's what we're doing; don't call us, we'll call you) would be
nice.
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 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 14:54:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Player Participation
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960421144645.20900A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         Wouldn't it be nice if they actually talked to us,
> instead of restricting it to those already on AOL? Even one-way
> (here's what we're doing; don't call us, we'll call you) would be
> nice.

	I'd go for that.  Heck, I've seen three or four requests on this 
mailing list and xboat for the Marc Miller interview that occurred on AOL 
a few weeks ago.  If MM or Imp Games had bothered to log that to disk, 
then upload it here (even unedited), it would have been nice.
	As it is, since no one has responded to those requests, I assume 
no one who was there logged it to disk either. :(
	Hope nothing important was said . . . .

	I fully understand that Marc and Imp. Games have their hands full 
trying to get the game out by GenCon.  Nonetheless, it never hurts to 
drop a line here and there to the people most likely to buy your products.
	It's not like we don't need to be convinced in order to purchase 
them.  The number of Traveller fans who didn't upgrade to MegaTraveller, and 
the ones who didn't upgrade to TNE, shows very well that we aren't sheep 
who will buy every item put out with the Traveller logo on it.  We could 
be their core audience if they handle it properly - a core audience that 
could then go on to spread the word, garnering a larger audience and 
bigger profits for them.
	But, heck, it's their business - and their assets on the line - 
not ours.  If the worst situation happens and they fail miserably, it 
won't hurt me much - I'll still have my CT collection, and therefore I 
will be no worse off than before.
	So, in the end it is up to them, not us, to determine how they 
run their business.  
	It would just be nice to be appreciated as a customer for once.

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 665
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 666

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 665	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  2) Re: MM on aol and not here	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  3) Re: rules equivalencies	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  4) RE: New product feedback	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  5) Marc Miller and Imperium Games	by a.s.lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
  6) RE: Valk's Traveller Issue	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
  7) Re: Newsgroups vs. Mailing Lists.	by David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
  8) Re: Player Participation	by Paragon369@aol.com
  9) Re: Player Participation	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
 10) RE: Valk's Traveller Issue	by David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
 11) Reality outstrips SF -- again	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
 12) Re: Reality outstrips SF -- again	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:13:58 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 665
Message-ID: <199604220213.TAA13759@mom.hooked.net>

At 09:33 PM 4/21/96 -0400; Joe Walsh wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>         Wouldn't it be nice if they actually talked to us,
>> instead of restricting it to those already on AOL? Even one-way
>> (here's what we're doing; don't call us, we'll call you) would be
>> nice.
>
>	I'd go for that.  Heck, I've seen three or four requests on this 
>mailing list and xboat for the Marc Miller interview that occurred on AOL 
>a few weeks ago.  If MM or Imp Games had bothered to log that to disk, 
>then upload it here (even unedited), it would have been nice.

Actually, I got a short response from Marc Miller to my essay.  (My wife
claims that I looked like "I had gone to see a department store Santa, and
he told me to take all the toys".

In his all-to-brief note; he suggested another effect that brought about the
Third Imperium's rapid ascendancy: the development of tech 12.. I'm mulling
that one over.  Any gearheads want to break down the advantages of TL12 over
TL11?  He mentioned something about improved power sources...

>	I fully understand that Marc and Imp. Games have their hands full 
>trying to get the game out by GenCon.

Very true.  My email to various members of the design team have all been
answered politely, but briefly.  Let them work, I say.
# ---------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry           dberry@hooked.net  #
#   Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru  #
#                                                #
#  "Liberty consists in doing what one desires"  #
#                             -John Stuart Mill  #
# ---------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 21:08:39 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: MM on aol and not here
Message-ID: <9604220308.AA01458@Rt66.com>

 
> In his all-to-brief note; he suggested another effect that brought about the
> Third Imperium's rapid ascendancy: the development of tech 12.. I'm mulling
> that one over.  Any gearheads want to break down the advantages of TL12 over
> TL11?  He mentioned something about improved power sources...

In a word, _dampers_.  Nuclear damper tech implies the ability to
manipulate the strong and weak forces directly.  Big leap.  Like gaining
the use of stuff that involves the electromagnetic forces.

> Very true.  My email to various members of the design team have all been
> answered politely, but briefly.  Let them work, I say.

I wish them the best of luck... I'd just like to help work out any kinks
:-)

Regards,
	Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:28:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: rules equivalencies
Message-ID:  <9604220928.aa03118@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

David J. Golden <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
>...

>        How about just describing a character's abilities in any
>specific area along the lines of "Unskilled, Beginner, Amateur,
>Competent, Expert" or some such... 

>        Unskilled = no skill
>        Beginner  = level 0
>        Amateur   = level 1
>        Competent = level 3
>        Expert    = level 5

I think this is a good idea. Using the Difficult difficulty level as 
the conversion basis, this would give the following conversion.
I somehow adjusted the above given numbers, because there is a
extreme difference between skill level 3 and 5(reducing the chance for
a success for a difficult task by about x0.57 and giving the competent
man a chance of about 40% to succeed at a difficult task. Here is my
recommendation:
                                              Success(MT/TNE)
Description    MT Skill   TNE Asset   Routine*   Difficult   Impossible**
Novice             0          2       58%/20%      8%/10%       0%/ 0%
Beginner           1          4       72%/40%     17%/20%       0%/ 5%          
Amateur            2          6       83%/60%     28%/30%       0%/ 5%
Average            3          8       91%/80%     42%/40%       3%/10%
Competent          4         12       97%/90%     58%/60%       8%/15%
Expert             5         14       97%/90%     72%/70%      17%/15%
Wizard             6         16       97%/90%     83%/80%      28%/20%

*  TNE Average, I assume in the new system the difficulty level Routine
   will be used again. 
** Impossible is the impossible difficulty level in TNE
   or the Formidable difficulty level in the newer editions of MT. However
   IMHO this should be renamed to Almost Impossible :-)

The biggest problem is the 7+ /8+ gap at Difficult with an MT skill of
3/4. The granularity at this point is about 17%. This is the cause why I
don't like those gauss systems because they only work well within the ends
of the curve. At the center, there are large leaps in the odds. Also I
think a rule 12+ is allways success for the MT system would be nice. 
Also a problem is, that in MT the diffenent skills at routine tasks don't
make much difference, while in TNE low skilled characters have difficulties
with them. I think the greatest problem with the MT system is a missing
intermediate level between Difficult and Formidable/Impossible(ie. 13+)
This is because, while the random number production follows a gauss curve,
but the difficulty scale is linear. 

Thomas Kathmann

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 96 09:29:00 PDT
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: New product feedback
Message-ID: <317BB408@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>


David J. Golden wrote:

>         Wouldn't it be nice if they actually talked to us,
> instead of restricting it to those already on AOL? Even one-way
> (here's what we're doing; don't call us, we'll call you) would be
> nice.
 I appreciate that doubtless everyone is very busy preparing
what is hopefully going to be an excellent game, but it does
concern me that there is so little feedback to what must be one of
the most active user groups of a product.  In view of the apparently
error-strewn (I've never seen it) MegaTraveller, the controversy
over the move to TNE, and the winding down of GDW, the market
place reputation of Traveller and Traveller products, among the
general RPG buying public as well as amongst retailers, cannot
be very high.  If T4 is to be the success we all hope it will be I
would have thought that good PR and marketing would be one
of the highest priorities on Imperium Games' list.  There's not
much point in releasing a brilliant game if nobody buys it because
they mistrust its reputation and have had bad experiences with
its antecedents.

Apart from anything else, I'm sure that many many members of
the TML and Xboat lists have e-mailed Marc Miller/ Imperium
Games with their suggestions, as requested.  To me it would
just be common courtesy to post some kind of reply to us as a
group, even if all that says is this is where we are.

Cheers

Iain Rowan

iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:02:10 +0100
From: a.s.lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Marc Miller and Imperium Games
Message-ID: <199604220917.FAA09064@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

In digest 665, Joe Walsh and Dave Golden agreed:

>>         Wouldn't it be nice if they actually talked to us,
>> instead of restricting it to those already on AOL? Even one-way
>> (here's what we're doing; don't call us, we'll call you) would be
>> nice.

>	I fully understand that Marc and Imp. Games have their hands full 
>trying to get the game out by GenCon.  Nonetheless, it never hurts to 
>drop a line here and there to the people most likely to buy your products.

Imperium Games is certainly very busy at the moment. I believe that Ken
(Whitman) is nearly finished equipping the IG office with telephones, etc.
and hopefully that, plus finalising contracts with authors and all that
stuff, will eventually leave him with enough time to read the huge number of
e-mails being sent to IG.

Basically, YES, they're very (I was going to use a stronger word here, but
I'm not sure what your US regulations are like now?) busy. August really
isn't very far away. Yes, they're working hard, trying out various rules
alterations (from the CT and MT basis). Ken also has a lot of irons in the
fire to help finance Traveller in the longer-term.

Ok, I agree that limiting the discussions to AOL has shut out a lot of
people (including myself). I've been trying to get some form of listing of
what was said (anyone out there record the AOL discussions?).

Needless to say, as one humbly hopes to be the 'vehicle' for the UK launch
of the new Traveller, I have been keeping in touch with Ken as much as
possible. If I get any further news that I can share with you (yuck yuck
yuck - broke into corporate speech there for a second) I'll do so.

Oh, and no I have no formal connection with IG, in case anyone's wondering.

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 96 12:38:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: "traveller%mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Valk's Traveller Issue
Message-ID: <317BE08B@pc136>



Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM> asked:

> Uh, where from? I've never seen a copy! Any distribs in the UK?

Well, it's a UK-based magazine. You should be able to find it in WH Smiths 
or John Menzies. Failing that, your newsagent or games shop should be able 
to get hold of it for you (issue 11 is due out in a couple of weeks).

Failing all of these try Leisure Games on 0181-346-2327 (+44 181 346 2327 
from outside the UK), or Caliver Books on 01702-73986 (+44 1702 73986 from 
outside the UK).

You can get back issues (the ones we still have copies of, at any rate) from 
Caliver Books.

The US distributor is On Military Matters, based in New Jersey. I don't have 
their number handy.

Hope this helps,

Dave Elrick

 -------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:18:57 +0100 (BST)
From: David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Newsgroups vs. Mailing Lists.
Message-ID: <199604221118.MAA00147@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>

Rob wisely wrote: 
> 
> Here are my reasons for not supporting the news group idea:
> 
> Netnews is out of control.  A full news feed cannot be transmitted over a T1
> without falling behind.  Netnews' days are numbered.  Between the web, and
> the total amount of worthless spam in the news groups, administrators are
> less likely to want to carry netnews.  We receive a restricted feed of just
> alt.,comp.,rec., and sci. (less alt.binaries).  Even then, as much as I have 
> been a big news advocate for the past 12 years, find myself asking why?
> 

As an ex-usenet adminstrator (currently resting between jobs) I completely 
agree with you. Netnews is going down fast. The restricted feed my site 
took and held for 3 days was 2 gigs (or more) in sites and that didn't 
include the binary newsgroups. The feeling was the same between news 
administors that I dealt with. Also newsgroup messages can get lost. You 
could miss some if the site expired them before you had a chnace to log on.

A mailing list is a far better idea.

Dave

/*-------------------------------------------------------------*\
| dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk : David Mark Johnson            |
| The future's so bright, I gotto wear shades                   |
\*-------------------------------------------------------------*/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:40:34 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Player Participation
Message-ID: <960422124033_380292407@emout16.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-21 15:54:37 EDT, you write:

<< Heck, I've seen three or four requests on this 
mailing list and xboat for the Marc Miller interview that occurred on AOL 
a few weeks ago. >>

I've got a request in to the coordinator of the conference area that that
occured on... he said he'll have a transcript for me soon... I'll upload it
to the lists asap...

Russ


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:43:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Player Participation
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960422124244.13996A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Mon, 22 Apr 1996 Paragon369@aol.com wrote:

> I've got a request in to the coordinator of the conference area that that
> occured on... he said he'll have a transcript for me soon... I'll upload it
> to the lists asap...
> 
	Woo-hoo! I look forward to it!  Thank you!


-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 96 20:05:53 EDT
From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Valk's Traveller Issue
Message-ID: <960423000552_100605.3625_BHL32-1@CompuServe.COM>

>> > Uh, where from? I've never seen a copy! Any distribs in the UK?

Well, it's a UK-based magazine. You should be able to find it in WH Smiths 
or John Menzies. Failing that, your newsagent or games shop should be able 
to get hold of it for you (issue 11 is due out in a couple of weeks). <<

Agh! I missed the start of this, which issue of Valkyrie is the relevant one?
11? BTW, issue 10 lists Valk's Web Site as
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/hompages/d_renton.
 
                            David

!^NavFont02F017E0004HH7F6929



 +
  'Software design, a swamp without bottom or border'
                            The Gold Coast
                                 Kim Stanley Robinson
 +


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 96 20:47:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Reality outstrips SF -- again
Message-ID: <8BF24DF.01000730C8.uuout@execnet.com>


  I just acquired a copy of the May 1996 Computer Shopper (Metro NY
  Edition) and saw an article in the Tech Section about holographic
  data storage (Title: Light Waves Ahead; p562).

  The article says that Stanford University's Center for Nonlinear
  Optical Materials has "a 100 percent working holographic storage
  prototype."  The article then claims that the technology is
  viable enough to be on the market within five years.

  In June 1994, when the first tests of the technology were run,
  the Stanford system successfully encoded, stored, and retrieved a
  JPEG image of the Mona Lisa (originally stored on a conventional
  hard disk), and passed the tests with flying colors.  It is
  claimed that technological improvements have been made, and that
  this year, an MPEG sequence successfully passed the tests.

  The 2cm x 2cm x 1cm holocrystal is made out of Lithium Niobate,
  and the read-write mechanism is based on a blue-green Argon
  laser.  Work is in progress to try to achieve a system which will
  operate using a common red semiconductor laser - much cheaper and
  more available.

  The article then goes into the technical details of how the
  system works - a fascinating read, but too long and complex to
  summarize here - go get a copy of Computer Shopper and read it
  yourself.  Near the end, the claim is made that a consumer
  product (remember, we're talking less than five years) will
  exhibit a transfer rate of 1Gbps - yes, that's one gigabit per
  second - not too shabby!

  FWIW, the Megatraveller Referee's Companion puts holocrystal
  storage at TL13.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  1 = 2, for sufficiently large values of 1.




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 20:14:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Reality outstrips SF -- again
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960422200942.20777B-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

[snip]
>   The article then goes into the technical details of how the
>   system works - a fascinating read, but too long and complex to
>   summarize here - go get a copy of Computer Shopper and read it
>   yourself.  Near the end, the claim is made that a consumer
>   product (remember, we're talking less than five years) will
>   exhibit a transfer rate of 1Gbps - yes, that's one gigabit per
>   second - not too shabby!
> 
>   FWIW, the Megatraveller Referee's Companion puts holocrystal
>   storage at TL13.

	True.  However, the Grand Survey/Census rules make it clear that 
technology levels in the different fields (computers, water 
transportation, personal weaponry, etc.) may not be the same on a given 
world.  That is, a world may have TL 13 computer storage, but only TL 8 
ground transportation.  
	Which makes sense.  In a war-oriented world, there will be 
relatively more advances in military technology than in other fields 
(ignoring for the moment the significant crossover of tech from one 
purpose to another).  A species which is water-dwelling will have far 
greater watercraft technology than ground transportation.  And so on.

	So, Earth at this point may indeed have TL 13 computers, but 
remain at TL 9 for other things.

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 666
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 667

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: rules equivalencies	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 666	by "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
  3) Re: New Product Feedback	by dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
  4) Machine guns & bunny deathfest	by Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
  5) Re: New Product Feedback	by Paragon369@aol.com
  6) Toolbox	by mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
  7) RE: Valk's Traveller Issue	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
  8) Re: Toolbox	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  9) RE: Valk's Traveller Issue	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
 10) Starship Design...	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
 11) Re: New Product Feedback	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
 12) Re: Machine guns & bunny deathfest	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
 13) Re: Starship Design...	by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
 14) Starsystem generation	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
 15) Re: rules equivalencies	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
 16) Re: rules equivalencies 	by Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 20:28:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: rules equivalencies
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960422202022.20777C-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Thomas Kathmann wrote:

> I think this is a good idea. Using the Difficult difficulty level as 
> the conversion basis, this would give the following conversion.
> I somehow adjusted the above given numbers, because there is a
> extreme difference between skill level 3 and 5(reducing the chance for
> a success for a difficult task by about x0.57 and giving the competent
> man a chance of about 40% to succeed at a difficult task. Here is my
> recommendation:
>                                               Success(MT/TNE)
> Description    MT Skill   TNE Asset   Routine*   Difficult   Impossible**
> Novice             0          2       58%/20%      8%/10%       0%/ 0%
> Beginner           1          4       72%/40%     17%/20%       0%/ 5%          
> Amateur            2          6       83%/60%     28%/30%       0%/ 5%
> Average            3          8       91%/80%     42%/40%       3%/10%
> Competent          4         12       97%/90%     58%/60%       8%/15%
> Expert             5         14       97%/90%     72%/70%      17%/15%
> Wizard             6         16       97%/90%     83%/80%      28%/20%
> 
> *  TNE Average, I assume in the new system the difficulty level Routine
>    will be used again. 
> ** Impossible is the impossible difficulty level in TNE
>    or the Formidable difficulty level in the newer editions of MT. However
>    IMHO this should be renamed to Almost Impossible :-)

	Ooh.  Even I, a Classic Traveller enthusiast, like this!  I like 
it a lot.  It sounds much better to say, "I'm an expert computer 
programmer," than, "I have 5 skill levels of computer programming."  This 
one I'm definitely going to save.


-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 23:18:24 +0000
From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 666
Message-ID: <199604230418.XAA06004@cube.ice.net>

I talked to Marc Miller last saturday and made the request about 
getting stuff  forwarded here. He's still living here in Bloomington, 
and I ran into him at the hobby shop, while pillaging some classic 
traveller stuff that they are selling at a discount

==========================================================
Shadowcat[AKA Kevin Walsh] kwalsh@ice.net
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh
"There is a fine line between sanity and Insanity,
 I dance that line"
Wargamer, Filker, SCA Herald, genneral loony

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 02:22:05 -0600
From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New Product Feedback
Message-ID: <v01530501ada242849dfa@[206.230.202.112]>

>>         Wouldn't it be nice if they actually talked to us,
>> instead of restricting it to those already on AOL? Even one-way
>> (here's what we're doing; don't call us, we'll call you) would be
>> nice.

I will do my best to provide relevent information to this newsgroup. My
name is Don Perrin and I am a member of the design team responsible for
ships and space combat. We generally have meetings every Wednesday, meaning
that I can have some info to you on Thursdays. What sort of information are
you looking for?

Thanks for your interest,

Don Perrin
Game Designer


=====================================================================
Don Perrin              414-245-1748 voice           414-245-1734 fax
=====================================================================



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 17:34:14 +1000
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: Machine guns & bunny deathfest
Message-ID: <133417230496*/G=Michael/S=Barry/O=FINANCE/PRMD=AUSGOVFINANCE/ADMD=TELEMEMO/C=AU/@MHS>

Ah, all this talk of automatic weapons takes me back to a previous life in which
I spent some time as a machine gunner. 

A few things about machine guns that RPGs never seem to take into account: 
1. You aim at the BASE (feet) of your target if you are firing on a human or a 
group of humans. The bullet chucker throws an elongated cone of fire; rounds in 
the top half of the cone will strike the target, the ones in the bottom half of 
the cone ricochet off the ground and bring up stones, splinters etc which will 
cause your target some concern. 
2. A machine gun is more lethal than anything. 155mm Artillery, flamethrowers, 
mortars, rifle fire, anything. Millions of dead in hundreds of wars this century
can't be wrong. 
3. It is actually easier to hit a target that is some distance from you, because
you can walk fire onto it. 
4. If you are within the beaten zone of a machine gun, you are dead. Your 
commanding officer is dead. Your mates are dead. Your ... you get the point. 
5. An MG round will travel through a large tree, a wall, and half a dozen of 
your mates. There is very little that will protect you from machine gun fire. 
6. Body armour? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ... forget it. You are better off being 
able to run fast and fit into small depressions in the ground. 
7. When you are talking about automatic fire, it is always better to give than 
to receive. 

I am working on some alternate (highly lethal but simple) rules for automatic 
weapons combat; I will be posting them for comment sometime I can find time to 
finish them off. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 04:14:47 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New Product Feedback
Message-ID: <960423041444_278551496@emout07.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-23 03:27:51 EDT, you write:

<< I will do my best to provide relevent information to this newsgroup. My
name is Don Perrin and I am a member of the design team responsible for
ships and space combat. We generally have meetings every Wednesday, meaning
that I can have some info to you on Thursdays. What sort of information are
you looking for? >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
Don, just a friendly suggestion.... it'd sure be nice if the folks involved
in the creation of the newest version of Traveller would take a few minutes
each week to check out the lists and answer some question... or maybe you
could supply us with specific 'mail drops' for each individual... (is
FarFuture@aol.com the only point of contact??)  You know, this list could be
a really valuable resource to FarFuture... you could skip possible errors by
checking on questionable things... and get suggestions... all by just
dropping a note...

Don't think for an instant that I'm "busting your chops" about ANYTHING!!
 I'm just trying to say that the people that read this list are the ones that
you might consider the 'deciples' of Traveller... we're the ones that have
taken it to heart... and we're the ones that are going to be shaking up the
gaming community and letting them know about the new game system...  a
valuable resource if you ask me...  You folks are working as hard and as fast
as is humanly possible.... LET US HELP if we can.... create rules for ships
and let us know what they are..... I guarentee that you'll have more ship
designs drawn up than you can ever use....  give us ANY rules... and we'll
take 'em apart and put 'em back togather again.... and let you know if
they've got holes anywhere.... with you guys working and us 'proofing' ...
the new Traveller will have the least 'errata' of any game that's come out in
recent years.....

=======================>  Just a friendly suggestion....

Thanks...

                Russ

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 18:56:06 +1000
From: mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Toolbox
Message-ID: <199604230856.SAA18074@smople.thehub.com.au>

A few months ago, I sent a few people copies of a makeshift 'toolbox' for
Traveller.  I've since moved across the country, and have left the original
back in Perth.  If anyone still has a copy, could you let me know so I can
arrange to grab it.  Also, if anyone has any comments, gripes, suggestions
or bug reports, please email me at
mickb@thehub.com.au and let me know.

Thanx,

Mick
"...mad dog, shaven head, bottle boy freaks..."

                                 Marillion, 'Berlin'


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 12:20:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: "traveller%mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Valk's Traveller Issue
Message-ID: <317D2D98@pc136>


David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM> missed the start of this topic:

> Agh! I missed the start of this, which issue of Valkyrie is the relevant 
one?

The Traveller theme issue will be issue <counts on fingers> #13. The plan is 
to have it available in time for the European GEN CON at the beginning of 
September.

This presupposes that IG keeps their promise to issue 'Traveller IV: The 
Macho Women With Guns Crossover' at the American GEN CON in August.

> BTW, issue 10 lists Valk's Web Site as
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/hompages/d_renton.

I don't have web access, so I've only seen this site when I visit the Valk 
office, but that sounds about right.

Kind Regards

Dave Elrick
SF Editor, Valkyrie Magazine
Traveller Nut
Macho Women With Guns Staff Writer

 -------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 96 08:49:07 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Toolbox
Message-ID: <18842067@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

A toolbox? do tell; for IBM platforms only, i assume? us poor mac users....

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 96 09:49:12 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Valk's Traveller Issue
Message-ID: <18844394@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

--- You wrote:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/hompages/d_renton.
--- end of quoted material ---
she don' work, mon. de netscape she say dis URL is a no go. 'ssup widdat, mon?

------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:34:07 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Starship Design...
Message-ID: <1FF30FD2D68@daisy.le.ac.uk>

After having a copy of FF&S for absolutely ages, I've only recently 
got around to designing some starships.  Normally I would have just 
used the ones presented in Brilliant Lances, but I thought that I 
would have to get used to designing the things... the wonders of 
computer-technology allowed me to create a mucho-detailed spreadsheet 
which does most of the work for me.  However, one thing that always 
keeps on coming up - the amount of fuel for thrust.  Everything works 
fine for a 1G ship (like the Moraine-class Free Trader), but I always 
seem to get ridiculous answers like 6000 kl of thrust-fuel for the 
Patrol Cruiser... Okay, this may be pathetic, but I checked out the 
spreadsheet and the formula in the book and everything seems correct.

With the Patrol Cruiser you have a 400 ton vessel going at 4G which 
therefore requires 800 MW of thrust-MW.  According to the book, each 
thrust-MW requires 0.25 kl per hour, thus going for 200 kl of fuel 
per hour the entire assembly.  With 30 G-hour of thrust required that 
comes up to a rather hefty 6000 kl.  Now the only problem is that a 
400-ton hull only has 5,600 kl of volume left in it.  Umm... this may 
be a silly question but what am I doing wrong.  Everything else works 
out just peacy, but this one has got me stumped.  The only thing that 
I can do is divide the kl/hour for the assembly by four for >1G 
ships.  Help.

Oh yes, a point on the technology... using the MT Referee's Companion 
we are somewhere at TL 8 for everything but Medicine and Computers.  
Just a thought.

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Then we'll have what we've only dreamed about...
       a country of our oon."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 10:38:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New Product Feedback
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960423102950.6770B-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Don Perrin wrote:

> I will do my best to provide relevent information to this newsgroup. My
> name is Don Perrin and I am a member of the design team responsible for
> ships and space combat. We generally have meetings every Wednesday, meaning
> that I can have some info to you on Thursdays. What sort of information are
> you looking for?

	Thank you for participating.  It's nice to see a member of the 
design team here.
	I hope that we, the end-users, are allowed a chance to 
give input during the design process.  Now, truly, I'm no fan of 
"design by committee," and I don't want that.  But, if your design team 
is having trouble on any point, please throw it out to us.  If you need 
ship designs, let us know the rules and we'll give 'em to you.  If you 
need other rules (character classes, experience rules, weapons, etc.), 
please let us know.  There will probably be one or more of us who has 
already developed a rule and smoothly integrated it with one of the three 
Traveller systems.  
	But most of all, I was hoping you'd acknowledge us, which you've 
done.  That's good.  And if the AOL discussions will be posted here soon, 
then I'll be content even if we never get a crack at designing ships 
and/or proofing rules systems.

Thanks,

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 10:43:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Machine guns & bunny deathfest
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960423103946.7498A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Tue, 23 Apr 1996 Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:

> Ah, all this talk of automatic weapons takes me back to a previous life in which
> I spent some time as a machine gunner. 

	Ah, the voice of experience!  

> A few things about machine guns that RPGs never seem to take into account: 

> 1. You aim at the BASE (feet) of your target if you are firing on a human or a 
> group of humans. The bullet chucker throws an elongated cone of fire; rounds in 
> the top half of the cone will strike the target, the ones in the bottom half of 
> the cone ricochet off the ground and bring up stones, splinters etc which will 
> cause your target some concern. 
> 2. A machine gun is more lethal than anything. 155mm Artillery, flamethrowers, 
> mortars, rifle fire, anything. Millions of dead in hundreds of wars this century
> can't be wrong. 

	Hmmm.  This is something rarely (if ever) seen in RPG's.  Sure, a 
direct hit by some other weapons will do more damage, but the accuracy 
isn't there as it is with a machine gun.  hmm.

> 3. It is actually easier to hit a target that is some distance from you, because
> you can walk fire onto it. 

> 4. If you are within the beaten zone of a machine gun, you are dead. Your 
> commanding officer is dead. Your mates are dead. Your ... you get the point. 
> 5. An MG round will travel through a large tree, a wall, and half a dozen of 
> your mates. There is very little that will protect you from machine gun fire. 

	Wow.

> 6. Body armour? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ... forget it. You are better off being 
> able to run fast and fit into small depressions in the ground. 

> 7. When you are talking about automatic fire, it is always better to give than 
> to receive. 
> 
> I am working on some alternate (highly lethal but simple) rules for automatic 
> weapons combat; I will be posting them for comment sometime I can find time to 
> finish them off. 

	Simple and deadly: exactly the type of combat rules I like.  I look 
forward to your publication of them.
	Thanks for the informative post!

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 23 Apr 1996 12:40:07 MDT
From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Starship Design...
Message-ID: <15513366091@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>

With the Patrol Cruiser you have a 400 ton vessel going at 4G which 
therefore requires 800 MW of thrust-MW.  According to the book, each 
thrust-MW requires 0.25 kl per hour, thus going for 200 kl of fuel 
per hour the entire assembly.  With 30 G-hour of thrust required that 
comes up to a rather hefty 6000 kl.  Now the only problem is that a 
400-ton hull only has 5,600 kl of volume left in it.  Umm... this may 
be a silly question but what am I doing wrong.  Everything else works 
out just peacy, but this one has got me stumped.  The only thing that 
I can do is divide the kl/hour for the assembly by four for >1G 
ships.  Help.

Your problem is that the ship needs 200 kiloliters of fuel/hour, but 
that's at an acceleration of 4Gs.  So for every hour the ship 
accelerates at 4Gs(every 200 kl of fuel it burns) it produces 4 
G-hours of acceleration, not one.  So, to get 30 G-hours of 
acceleration, you only need 7 and 1/2 hours of fuel.
Hope that helps.

The Phoenix

"I have a bad feeling about this."
-Just about every Rebel at one time or another.

walldani@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 20:00:36 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Starsystem generation
Message-ID: <v02140b00ada2f02d1eac@[193.12.250.151]>

I'm developing a utility for generating starsystem data from mainworld
strings and a question popped up that doesn't seem to be clear in the
rulebook:
The number of planetoid belt in the datastring, does that include the
mainworld if the mainworld is a asteroid belt? The MT rules doesn't say and
neither does Scouts.

/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 20:00:42 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: rules equivalencies
Message-ID: <v02140b01ada2f1c47e52@[193.12.250.151]>

>The biggest problem is the 7+ /8+ gap at Difficult with an MT skill of
>3/4. The granularity at this point is about 17%. This is the cause why I
>don't like those gauss systems because they only work well within the ends
>of the curve.

Almost all realworld(tm) processes if random are gaussian and therefore the
tasksystems should do that as well IMHO. One problem with the MT tasksystem
was how uncertain tasks where handled. A tasksystem should have the same
levels of success wether the task is uncertain or not. I do not use MT
rules in my campaign but the tasksystems are sligtly similar. An uncertain
task is handled exactly like a normal one with the same difficulty levels,
diemods et c but the player only rolls one die and the GM rolls the other
secretly. Only the GM knows the real outcome but the player has a rough
estimate because he knows what his die resulted in.
Also I hate automatic sucess/failure like MT, TNE et c. In my system if the
player rolls a natural 12 or a natural 1 he rolls another and adds the
result unless it was a six. If it was a six he adds 5 and rolls another die
et c. The same goes for snakeeys of course. Thus the players can succeed at
any task but the harder the task the less likely it is and they can also
fail at any task but the easier the task the less likely they are to fail.

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 09:14:55 +1000
From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: rules equivalencies 
Message-ID: <9604232314.AA13926@helpdesk.jcu.edu.au>

hi,

>Almost all realworld(tm) processes if random are gaussian and therefore the
>tasksystems should do that as well IMHO.

Many statisticians would like you to believe that most real
world random processes are gaussian.  Unfortunately, this just isn't
true.

Rather than chanting wierdo maths here which nobody understands, I'll
mention, without proof, that averages and sums of things will often
tend towards the gaussian (the central limit theorem usually applies for
large enough samples).

But games rarely average or sum enough things for this to come into
play.


        						Dr Pauli

Paul Dale                       | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
Computer Centre                 | +61 77 814 551
James Cook University           |
Australia, 4811                 | Did you know that there are 41 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 667
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 668

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 667	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  2) New Traveller (TML)	by Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
  3) Howdy	by dhayden@udcps.cps.udayton.edu (Douglas Hayden)
  4) RE: New product info	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  5) Death to the evil bunny empire!	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
  6) Asteroids vs. Planetoids	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  7) Task SYstems	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  8) Re: New Product Feedback	by Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
  9) Starship Design...	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
 10) Lasers & Rigid armour	by grimscal@dove.mtx.net.au
 11) Re: Machine Gun Fire	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 12) Re: Rules Equivalencies	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
 13) Standard decoder	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
 14) What would we like to know?	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
 15) Re: Death to the evil bunny empire!	by "Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu>
 16) Re: Starship Design...	by Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@IO.COM>
 17) Re: Difficulty levels	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
 18) Re: Standard decoder	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
 19) Re: [T666] Reality outstrips SF -- again	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 19:44:50 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 667
Message-ID: <199604240244.TAA08105@mom.hooked.net>

At 09:34 PM 4/23/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 02:22:05 -0600
>From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Re: New Product Feedback
>Message-ID: <v01530501ada242849dfa@[206.230.202.112]>

>I will do my best to provide relevent information to this newsgroup. My
>name is Don Perrin and I am a member of the design team responsible for
>ships and space combat. We generally have meetings every Wednesday, meaning
>that I can have some info to you on Thursdays. What sort of information are
>you looking for?

Updates on how the product is coming would be nice.  The automatic reaction
when I say "GenCon release" is for the person to respond "nice Christmas
present".  Are things on a schedule that y'all are happy with?

Hints about what is going to be in T4 would help us get ready for the
transistion.  For example, since your forte is stsrships, are we going to be
using vector/thrust (TNE) or thrusters (CT/MT)?  Little things like that
will keep us going until the rules fall into our hands.

I remember Imperium Games announcing a mailing list.  I subscribed, but as
of yet haven't recieved a thing from them.

One thought just came to me.  A semi-regular IRC wouldn't hurt..


>Thanks for your interest,

Slavering obsession since 1977 in my case.
# ---------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry           dberry@hooked.net  #
#   Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru  #
#                                                #
#  "Liberty consists in doing what one desires"  #
#                             -John Stuart Mill  #
# ---------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 19:44:48 -0800
From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
To: dperrin@mag7.com
Subject: New Traveller (TML)
Message-ID: <317DA3B0.589B@concentric.net>

I think what most of us folks here are interested in is discussion on 
what the new Traveller is to be.  From the design level, what are you 
doing to produce a FF&S-like design sequences?  I'd heard that something 
of the like was in the works.

I'm assuming ship design will hail back to High Guard, but sequences for 
designing all matter of weaponry, robots, vehicles, and equipment (grav 
belts, communicators, manipulators, you name it) haven't been mentioned.

Also, what kind of schedule can we expect for the release of milieus?  
Personally, I'm not planning on conducting a "New Traveller" campaign 
until the Interstellar Wars milieu comes out.  It'd be nice to have a 
time frame to work with.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 23:22:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: dhayden@udcps.cps.udayton.edu (Douglas Hayden)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Howdy
Message-ID: <m0uBv9f-00019oC@udcps.cps.udayton.edu>

Hi, new (well, sorta) subscriber to the list.  As a former owner of TNE,
I was wandering a local comic book/gaming store when I found a nice
collection of MegaTraveller stuff in the corner.  I'd like opinions on
whether or not these would be good picks ups:

Megatraveller basic set (Player's guide, Referee's Guide, Imperial
Encyclopedia)

Rebellion sourcebook

Referee's companion

Hard Times sourcebook

And the ever immortal Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. <8)

I get paid on Thursday so opinions would be welcome before then. <8)

----------
Doug Hayden			dhayden@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu
----------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 09:21:00 PDT
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: New product info
Message-ID: <317E5568@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>



 dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) wrote

>I will do my best to provide relevent information to this newsgroup. My
>name is Don Perrin and I am a member of the design team responsible for
>ships and space combat. We generally have meetings every Wednesday, meaning
>that I can have some info to you on Thursdays. What sort of information are
>you looking for?

Well, as I think that Joe Walsh has already said in another post,the fact
that somebody involved in the production of the new Traveller has actually
contacted this list is a good start!  My real concern is that we were 
contacted
at the time of GDW's demise, told what some outline plans were, asked for
our comments (and I'm sure many of us replied in more detail than you
ever wanted...!) and then.... nothing.  All we heard were rumours that 
people with access to the discussions on AOL posted.

Speaking personally, I would be happy enough just hearing the odd
snippet of information about how things are coming along, any
exciting developments, any nailbiting problems etc.  I don't want
something that'll involve much effort on the part of anyone on the
design team - I want you all designing!  Just to be kept in touch
would be enough for me.  I do agree with what some other posters
have said though - if you want feedback on any ideas you are
thinking of, this group would be a good place to come.  You'd get
excellent feedback from people with many years experience of
playing all the previous incarnations of Traveller, who would put
a lot of effort into responding to any queries.

Thanks for taking the time to get in touch - good luck with the
design work.

Iain Rowan

iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:34:10 +0000
From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Death to the evil bunny empire!
Message-ID: <199604240834.JAA17296@cheviot.ncl.ac.uk>

Glad to see we're getting into the slaughter of bunnies seriously 
here, . I have to say the autofire rules in striker are pretty good, 
forget plasma guns and lasers, always go for automatic weapons, the 
RAM GL with APDS on auto fire was always the best +4 to hit +36 
damage and no rabbits within range alive, Ha Ha Ha Ha, die you fluffy 
tailed scum

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 01:18:22 -0800
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Asteroids vs. Planetoids
Message-ID: <v01540a00ada39b9d99c8@[137.229.100.62]>

from MT Ref's Manual, pp. 19:

>For the purposes of distinction, the term "asteroid belt" describes a
>planetoid
>belt which is also the mainworld in a system; "planetoid belt" refers to any
>other planetoid belt in the system.

So if it is in the planetoids collum is is _not_ an asteroid belt;
therefore the planetoid belts number does not include asteroid belt
mainworlds.

the same text (without the quotation marks) is in Scouts, pp34, 1st printing.

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 01:18:29 -0800
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Task SYstems
Message-ID: <v01540a01ada39d6e0705@[137.229.100.62]>

I LIKE the bell curve of MT; it seems to reflect my experiences as a
competetive marksman back in high school, when my learning curve was
higher. The same with computers now... the increase of result chances for a
given increase in skill gets much bigger for simple stuff, and much less
for harder stuff, with moderate stuff having the biggest gains, until a
certain point is hit, where the returns drop off.

[rant mode on]
My problem with the MT Task system is the LOW value of attributes in
relation to skill [5:1] and the relatively narrow non-crit-___  margin
[+2<->(-2)]; I would much prefer CS being 3 over and CF being 3 under, with
attributes being used at att/4 [4:1].

This also seems to be the critical break-point for attribute levels for
certain titles, like surgeon. (Many careers use it also, both basic and
advanced).


TNE, however, uses a 1:1 skill level/attribute level, and a given level of
skill or attribute is a simple (+20/+10/+5/+2.5/+1.25) at the five levels
of difficulty, and allows a character who meets the minimums of 1 level of
skill + 3 levels of attribute to have a 5% chance of success at the
Impossible task, something which only an expert (level 4+ minimum, with a
15 in the relavant attribute for a base +3 from attribute; total +7) could
do at all, and a maximum chance at it of 1/12 (less than 9%) assuming
hiting the DM limit of +8. Assuming Specialist Level 8, and a 10 in the
controlling attribute, that's a 4- on a d20, or 10%. FOr an Att14, skill 10
(the common max skill level allowed by all TNE GM's I've talked TNE with in
alaska), that goes to a 6-, or 30% on an IMPOSSIBLE task; which the
coversions assure me will either be skill 5 -7 equivalent, and +3 (for a
15, because TNE atts are 1 point lower) from attribute, hitting the +8 DM
Limit, and maxing out at 8.something%!

Keep that in mind when trying to come up with a "universal descriptor
system"; after all, TNE uses the same difficulties (with one name change),
and most of the published tasks (except for combat tasks) had unchanged
difficulty levels in the conversion.

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net

------------------------------

Date: 	Wed, 24 Apr 1996 14:48:04 +0200
From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New Product Feedback
Message-ID: <17e30ff0@pc173.qsp.co.uk>

This is a Mime message, which your current mail reader
may not understand. Parts of the message will appear as
text. To process the remainder, you will need to use a Mime
compatible mail reader. Contact your vendor for details.

--IMA.Boundary.366353038
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

     Hi Don,
     
     Thanks for taking the time to send mail to the list.  Your name is 
     familiar - Hero system by any chance?
     
     As several people have already said, there is a great resource 
     available on this list.  Before Wizards of the Coast dumped their 
     RPG's they ran a list for Ars Magica, and the line developer (Wade 
     Racine) used to throw ideas for Ars Magica 4 to the list and see what 
     we made of them.  It was usually of the form "What do people think of 
     the current ageing rules? I'm thinking of changing them to do this 
     because of this - any comments?".  I got the impression that Wade got 
     a lot of use from this approach; well he kept asking us for our 
     comments ;-).  After a discussion had gone on long enough Wade would 
     let us know that he had enough to make a decision on.  There was one 
     funny incident where someone asked "So, are we all agreed that 
     Teaching skill is out of ArM 4?" and Wade had to gently point out to 
     him that whilst he was inviting comment and opinions, he was not 
     handing out decision making powers to the list - *he* was in charge of 
     what went into the product.
     
     I found it very exciting to feel like I could be influencing a game I 
     love, or even just to see it taking shape in front of me.  I was even 
     considering having a friend in the states Fed Express me a copy as 
     soon as it came out (it can take about a month for new RPG's to get 
     over this side of the pond) - I was *that* excited.
     
      In direct response to your question of what we would like to know: 
     things like large scale changes - e.g. if you decide to change space 
     combat to be 3D with full vector movement requiring a physics degree, 
     special software and a cray to run it on, then I think I would find 
     that interesting (so I would know not to sell my copy of Battle Rider 
     ;-)).  Also, reasons for changes, new features, product ideas, release 
     dates.
     
     I think that's about it.  Good luck with the designing.  I'm looking 
     forward to seeing T4 in the summer (or autumn over here).  It might 
     even inspire me to run some Traveller.
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     -- 
     
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
--IMA.Boundary.366353038--

------------------------------

Date:          Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:55:07 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Starship Design...
Message-ID: <2158B6E3D63@daisy.le.ac.uk>

>>>
Your problem is that the ship needs 200 kiloliters of fuel/hour, but 
that's at an acceleration of 4Gs.  So for every hour the ship 
accelerates at 4Gs(every 200 kl of fuel it burns) it produces 4 
G-hours of acceleration, not one.  So, to get 30 G-hours of 
acceleration, you only need 7 and 1/2 hours of fuel.
Hope that helps.
<<<

Thanks for that... I thought that it would be that simple, but you 
never can tell ;-)  Now all I have to do is figure out design 
sequences and spreadsheets for all of the other craft types.

While I think about it... with regards to the (some might say) rapid 
advancements in technology, and in theoretical developments, over the 
past 20 years will T4 open up these fields?  From what I have seen of 
the older rules systems (i.e., MegaTraveller) they were based upon 
(proposed) advancements in the technology of the 1970's, yet quite a 
few areas of technology seem to have already been 'achieved.'  For 
example, at the moment we have been able to construct "nano-robots," 
something which does not come into the old MT time-line until 
something like TL-17.  Some of the weirder forms of star-travel in 
the same Referee's Companion (moving planets through Jump-space and 
the like) might not seem like such too-far-off prospect depending 
upon which papers you read about information theory.  So, will MM be 
integrating new technologies into the Traveller universe, or doesn't 
anyone know at the moment?

Anyway, thanks for listening to me rant incoherently.

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Then we'll have what we've only dreamed about...
       a country of our oon."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 02:15:34 +0000
From: grimscal@dove.mtx.net.au
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Lasers & Rigid armour
Message-ID: <199604241443.AAA25181@dove.mtx.net.au>

Hi folks
  I have a Question about Laser penetration.
 In the TNE rules it states that lasers do not penatrate rigid 
armour. Ok, But why are there no secoundary effects like heat damage 
and burning. A rigid vest stops most lasers, but dident the vest also 
receave 1000c worth of heat and that small cloud of vaporrised abative thats 
rising past your face, wouldent it burn you rathere badly. Not to 
mention what happens if you breathe it in. Also would some of it 
recondence on your viser and sensors blocking them.

It was just a thought........

Bye 
  Grimscale the unsmiling One :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:05:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Machine Gun Fire
Message-ID: <199604241605.LAA14408@ConnectI.com>

OK, info like this is always useful.  Esp from one who used to do this for a
LIVING

>
>A few things about machine guns that RPGs never seem to take into account: 
>1. You aim at the BASE (feet) of your target if you are firing on a human or a 
>group of humans. The bullet chucker throws an elongated cone of fire;
rounds in 
>the top half of the cone will strike the target, the ones in the bottom
half of 
>the cone ricochet off the ground and bring up stones, splinters etc which will 
>cause your target some concern. 

Actually this is almost the exact method used by Phoenix Command to resolve
automatic fire.  The main effort is to get the range right, then the fire
will create a beaten area in which you have tables that let you know what
the probability of hitting any give target in the area based upon number of
rounds fired and the size of the beaten area.  It works VERY well, and is
not nearly as complicated as it sounds.

>2. A machine gun is more lethal than anything. 155mm Artillery, flamethrowers, 
>mortars, rifle fire, anything. Millions of dead in hundreds of wars this
century
>can't be wrong. 

Sorry, I don't buy this.  Given that as an infantry waepon, the MG is
perhaps the best weapon around, there is a reason that Artillery is called
the "King of Battle"  More soldiers have been killed by artillery in every
major conflict from the invention of modern Artillery( WWI round abouts)
than any other single form of killing.  In fact I remember reading that in
WWI and II, more were killed by Artillery than by all other means combined.
The reason most people don't realize this is two fold.  1st.  Artillery is
employed exclusively in war.  MGs can be used in terrorist attacks, drive-by
shootings, etc.   No one ever sees what a 81mm mortar round can do, much
less a 155mm.  RPGs don't even address artillery usaully because survival of
artillery barrage is a matter of blind luck rather than any form of skill.
2ndly, Artillery can deliver much more than just explosives on a target.
Its primary ability is to stun the opponents infantry.  When a barrage is
raining down on a position, the ONLY thing that infantry can do in cower in
their holes and hope and pray (literally) that a round doesn;t drop nearby,
and that the hard top cover will hold against the air bursts and splinters.
ANYONE cought out in the open in a barrage is DEAD!!!.

RPGs like traveler don't bother with artillery also because it is usually
fairly slow in arriving, you have to call it in, then wait for ranging
shots, then repeat last the target into oblivion.  Once again I recommend
Pheonix Command's Artillery system for a good look at just how deadly
artillery can be.  It doesn't however work at all in a game.
 
>3. It is actually easier to hit a target that is some distance from you,
because
>you can walk fire onto it. 

Very True, this can best be simulated by having a inherrant accuracy for
each Automatic weapon that after recoil is subtracted from yeilds the
improvment in the to-hit roll.  Unfortunately most gaming systems don;t base
damage or hit location off of how well you hit (see Milleniums End or
Phoenix Command for this).  The Example would be as follows.

Person fires a LMG with a recoil of say 3 for a ROF of 10.  The continuing
accuracy of this weapon is say 5.  That would mean that your to-hit roll
will get 2 better each turn after the first of continuous fire.  If you stop
firing then you roll all over again.
Again a person fires a Assault Rifle with a recoil of 8 for a 10 round
burst.  The continuing accuracy of the rifle is also 5, now as you continue
to fire, the to-hit roll will become 3 WORSE each round.

>4. If you are within the beaten zone of a machine gun, you are dead. Your 
>commanding officer is dead. Your mates are dead. Your ... you get the point. 

Not necessarily dead, but likely HIT.  One problem with most RPGs is that we
equate a hit with a kill.  In actuality, a hit is often not a KILL, but
rather a disable.  A person who takes a shin bone shot will likely not die
with proper treatment, but will not be able to continue fighting.  In fact
for the most part when anyone is shot, they are usually out of the combat
due to the increadible shock of "I've been hit" 

>5. An MG round will travel through a large tree, a wall, and half a dozen of 
>your mates. There is very little that will protect you from machine gun fire. 

18" of protection is the norm for small arms fire, however, since MG barrels
are longer, they generate more energy and thus go through a lot more.

>6. Body armour? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ... forget it. You are better off being 
>able to run fast and fit into small depressions in the ground. 

I can't agree with you more.  The main reason the military issues body
armour is to protect from SHELL FRAGMENTS.  It MIGHT (big maybe) stop a
pistol round, but a 5.56N or a 7.62N, will tear through Kevlar with little
slowing.  Pistol rounds are usually larger and slower and can be slowed or
stopped by Kevlar.  Rifle rounds are not siginificantly slowed by it.

>7. When you are talking about automatic fire, it is always better to give than 
>to receive. 

Amen Brother!

>
>I am working on some alternate (highly lethal but simple) rules for automatic 
>weapons combat; I will be posting them for comment sometime I can find time to 
>finish them off. 
>
You might want to at least look at Phoenix Command for some ideas.  Ifnot I
would be glad to help out on this.  I would love to see a game ssytem that
creates a quick yet fairly realistic system for fire combat.  Phoenix
Command did this butthen no-one would play it for fear of dying to quick.
It goes to show why you ALWAYS take cover first in a fight then figure out
what to do.  IT also shows why firefights actually take a fair amount of
time to complete.

Well just my 20Cr worth
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:10:21 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Rules Equivalencies
Message-ID: <139A2F90364@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 96 12:03:28 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Standard decoder
Message-ID: <960424160327_100326.446_JHF70-1@CompuServe.COM>


>> How about just describing a character's abilities in any specific area along
the lines of "Unskilled, Beginner, Amateur, Competent, Expert" or some such.
These are broad enough categories that anybody can understand, and then use
his/her own judgement to convert them. Or perhaps other guidelines. For example,
the MT "decoder" could say:

        Unskilled = no skill
        Beginner  = level 0
        Amateur   = level 1
        Competent = level 3
        Expert    = level 5 <<

Good idea! An expansion of the "Regular, Elite" etc in Striker, sort of thing.
We'd have to steer clear of the normal task level words (Routine, etc).  Perhaps
in the standard code we could have a UTDP (universal task descriptor profile)
where letter 1 is for CT, 2 for MT, 3 for TNE and 4 for T4. So, a task described
as "8DRD, Mechanical" would be a roll on Mechanical, 8+ for Classic, Difficult
for MT, Routine in TNE and Difficult in T4.

HWF


------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 96 12:03:35 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: What would we like to know?
Message-ID: <960424160334_100326.446_JHF70-4@CompuServe.COM>


>> I will do my best to provide relevent information to this newsgroup. My name
is Don Perrin and I am a member of the design team responsible for ships and
space combat. We generally have meetings every Wednesday, meaning that I can
have some info to you on Thursdays. What sort of information are you looking
for?<<

Anything. If you'd like to just ramble at us, that'd be fine! <chuckle>.

HWF


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 12:21:26 EDT
From: "Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Death to the evil bunny empire!
Message-ID: <9604241621.AA11033@cabell.vcu.edu>

> 
> Glad to see we're getting into the slaughter of bunnies seriously 
> here, . I have to say the autofire rules in striker are pretty good, 
> forget plasma guns and lasers, always go for automatic weapons, the 
> RAM GL with APDS on auto fire was always the best +4 to hit +36 
> damage and no rabbits within range alive, Ha Ha Ha Ha, die you fluffy 
> tailed scum
> 

VRF gauss weapons and LAG's (hehehehehehehe) give those little
easter egg basket carriers the semi-automatic hell they richly
deserve, dammit!
                         Jason

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 10:59:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@IO.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Starship Design...
Message-ID: <199604241559.KAA02029@pentagon.io.com>

Quoth M.A.Trickett:
> For example, at the moment we have been able to construct "nano-robots," 
> something which does not come into the old MT time-line until something 
> like TL-17.

You must have access to some rather surprising sources.  So far as I know,
we have nothing like full-fledged "nano-robots".  Scientists have managed
to manipulate single atoms using large-scale equipment like scanning 
electron microscopes (viz. the spelling-out of "IBM" dot-matrix-style a 
few years ago), and conceptual designs have been published for things
like nano-scale gears and rod-based computer systems.  But we are still
quite far from actually BUILDING the things, let alone building nano-scale
machines that will build other nano-scale machines, work together in an
organized and controlled fashion, etc.  We might well encounter new problems
in development which will push "true" nanotech (of the sort depicted in 
much recent popular SF) into the far future.

Nanotech would also have astounding repercussions on Imperial history and 
society: I suspect mere experimentation in the subject is heavily regulated,
though I wouldn't be surprised to see some very limited efforts (one-piece
hull building?) of great interest but also great expense.

> Some of the weirder forms of star-travel in the same Referee's Companion
> (moving planets through Jump-space and the like) might not seem like such 
> too-far-off prospect depending upon which papers you read about information
> theory.

Which papers would those be?  I tend to distrust some of the far-out 
theoretical work: too often it's amusing mathematic manipulations that
are wondrous in theory but a bit stiffer in practice.  Robert Forward
has presented all sorts of far-out physics, and Msr. Alcubierre has
"invented" his own warp drive, but many of them are easier to write
about than to actually conceive of building.

> So, will MM be integrating new technologies into the Traveller 
> universe, or doesn't anyone know at the moment?

I suspect, actually, that he'll be quite conservative.  Look at the 
trouble GDW got into when they tried to change technologies with TNE,
and the great howl that went up from the assembled fans.  I would
wholeheartedly welcome "alternate technologies" like those presented
in FF&S (and I loved TNE's replacement of thruster plates with, well,
admittedly fantastic themselves, reaction drives).  But I suspect the
Traveller universe will remain a Galactic Empire (in some Milieus, at
least) steeped in Golden Age science fiction with occasional and not
overly intrusive admixtures of more recent themes and discoveries.

--------------------------*-------------------------*------------------------
Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett | "Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
--------------------------*  sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
      jlockett@io.com     |  fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 11:21:56 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Difficulty levels
Message-ID: <13BD4361486@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

	My apologies for the empty message before...I hit the send rather 
than the cancel button :-/

	As people describe the difficulty levels and ways of equalizing the 
MT and TNE systems, it begins to sound more and more like FUDGE to 
me.  FUDGE (Free Form Universal Donated Gaming Engine) for those of 
you who don't know about it, is sort of a net-GURPS.  It has nothing 
to do with GURPS per se, but it is a multi genre system.

	At its heart is a difficulty and expertise set that sound remarkably 
like what  Joe liked about saying he was an 'Expert Programmer' 
rather than 8+. 

	It is hard to describe the mechanics of the system in just a few 
lines, but briefly, tasks and traits in FUDGE are :

Terrible, Poor, Mediocre, Fair, Good, Great, Superb

A superb programmer needs only a poor result to achieve the same 
thing a mediocre programmer needs a great or superb result to 
achieve.

While I'm not advocating that FUDGE be the system for Trav (though 
I've considered converting ALL my game milieus: fantasy, cyberpunk 
Traveller, etc to FUDGE) this does make a convenient 'translator' for 
determining difficulty levels in any given rules system.  Something 
could be described as a mediocre task, and then you could relatively 
easily figure out the necessary results in CT/MT/TNE/T4.

	I also think that Marc Miller, et al study FUDGE (and GURPS for that 
matter) as they design the rules systems. 

	the Home of fudge on the web is: 

http://oz.plymouth.edu/~gaming/fudfaq.html

	There has been a great deal of discussion over the years (in both 
rec.games.frp.* and rec.games design ) over the same issues people 
are struggling with here, such as what intervals to use between 
difficulty levels.  Much of that is discussed in the FUDGE faq at the 
site listed above, and in the FUDGE document itself, that could be 
very useful to people working this stuff out.


Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 96 12:41:47 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Standard decoder
Message-ID: <18910531@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

oh yes! this could very well, especially if the asumptions carried through far
enough that we of the 'plays TNE but still has Classic, etc etc' could reverse
engineer stats from older sets to use in TNE, et al. 

I may have missed the beginning; Who was working on this?

-j

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 16:33:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T666] Reality outstrips SF -- again
Message-ID: <8BF43E1.0100073496.uuout@execnet.com>


 ::>>   FWIW, the Megatraveller Referee's Companion puts holocrystal
 ::>>   storage at TL13.

T::> True.  However, the Grand Survey/Census rules make it clear that
 ::>technology levels in the different fields (computers, water
 ::>transportation, personal weaponry, etc.) may not be the same on a given
 ::>world.  That is, a world may have TL 13 computer storage, but only TL 8
 ::>ground transportation.

 Certainly.  I've never suggested otherwise; it makes eminent
 sense, as you point out - and I've even acknowledged this in the
 inclusion of the tech profile in the RICE Papers.

 But I question whether we were anywhere near tech _10_ last month-
 Massive Parallelism (TL8) isn't all that common, although
 Nonvolatile Memory (TL9) is; neither is Vocal Input (TL9) [and
 what is available isn't reliable].  Voice Transcription (TL10) is
 barely out of the SF stage - not as advanced as Holocrystal
 Storage (TL13) - and Advanced Synaptics (TL11) and
 Semi-Intelligent Robots (TL12) are still in the SF stage.  So
 what's our _real_ computer TL?  7 verging on 8 (Desktop Computers
 -> Massive Parallelism)? Early 9 (Nonvolatile Memory)?  Prototype
 13 (Holocrystal Storage)? All of the above?

 I think reality has gotten ahead of our Traveller writers...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  667:  Satan's neighbor...

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 668
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 669

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: [T666] Reality outstrips SF -- again	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  2) Re: Starship Design...	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>
  3) Re: Starship Design...	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>
  4) Jayasuriya Class Gunship	by mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
  5) Machine Gun Fire	by benjamin barton <benjy@iap.net.au>
  6) Re: Standard decoder	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  7) TL-14 400 Mj Particle Accelerator	by mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
  8) TL-8 Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile	by mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
  9) MT Products	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
 10) Bunnies: The final solution	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
 11) Re: Rules Equivalencies	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
 12) Nanotech...	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
 13) Re: Bunnies: The final solution	by "Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:44:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T666] Reality outstrips SF -- again
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960424184027.9543A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

>  Certainly.  I've never suggested otherwise; it makes eminent
>  sense, as you point out - and I've even acknowledged this in the
>  inclusion of the tech profile in the RICE Papers.

	I'm sorry. I misunderstood the thrust of your statements.

>  But I question whether we were anywhere near tech _10_ last month-
>  Massive Parallelism (TL8) isn't all that common, although
>  Nonvolatile Memory (TL9) is; neither is Vocal Input (TL9) [and
>  what is available isn't reliable].  Voice Transcription (TL10) is
>  barely out of the SF stage - not as advanced as Holocrystal
>  Storage (TL13) - and Advanced Synaptics (TL11) and
>  Semi-Intelligent Robots (TL12) are still in the SF stage.  So
>  what's our _real_ computer TL?  7 verging on 8 (Desktop Computers
>  -> Massive Parallelism)? Early 9 (Nonvolatile Memory)?  Prototype
>  13 (Holocrystal Storage)? All of the above?

	Hmmm.  It seems I have been mistaken about tech levels all this 
time!  I thought the level indicated that at which the device or whatever 
is invented/created/produced/whatever.  It appears from what you say 
above that, instead, the tech level refers to the time in which the item 
is common.
	Correct?


>  I think reality has gotten ahead of our Traveller writers...

	True.  That bothers me somewhat as well.  Hopefully, T4 will 
rectify that...for a few years, anyway. :)

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:20:08 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Starship Design...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960425002008.006973c0@mail.usa.net>

At 10:35 am 4/23/96 -0400, you wrote:
>After having a copy of FF&S for absolutely ages, I've only recently 
>got around to designing some starships.  Normally I would have just 
>used the ones presented in Brilliant Lances, but I thought that I 
>would have to get used to designing the things... the wonders of 
>computer-technology allowed me to create a mucho-detailed spreadsheet 
>which does most of the work for me.  However, one thing that always 
>keeps on coming up - the amount of fuel for thrust.  Everything works 
>fine for a 1G ship (like the Moraine-class Free Trader), but I always 
>seem to get ridiculous answers like 6000 kl of thrust-fuel for the 
>Patrol Cruiser... Okay, this may be pathetic, but I checked out the 
>spreadsheet and the formula in the book and everything seems correct.
>
>With the Patrol Cruiser you have a 400 ton vessel going at 4G which 
>therefore requires 800 MW of thrust-MW.  According to the book, each 
>thrust-MW requires 0.25 kl per hour, thus going for 200 kl of fuel 
>per hour the entire assembly.  With 30 G-hour of thrust required that 
>comes up to a rather hefty 6000 kl.  Now the only problem is that a 
>400-ton hull only has 5,600 kl of volume left in it.  Umm... this may 
>be a silly question but what am I doing wrong.  Everything else works 
>out just peacy, but this one has got me stumped.  The only thing that 
>I can do is divide the kl/hour for the assembly by four for >1G 
>ships.  Help.

        This wasn't exactly the best part of FF&S. For a 400 Td vessel you
need 4,000tonnes thrust. HEPlaR produces 20 tonnes per MW input. Therefore
you need 200MW, not 800. Now, each MW of power requires 0.25kl of LHyd and
you want 30G-hours (which is 60G-Turns in BL terms -- is that what you
wanted?). 200MW for 4Gs means 50MW for 1G. 50MW requires 12.5kl of fuel per
hour. So 30GHours requires 375kl. Much better.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:20:12 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Starship Design...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960425002012.0069f0c0@mail.usa.net>

At 02:36 pm 4/23/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>With the Patrol Cruiser you have a 400 ton vessel going at 4G which 
>therefore requires 800 MW of thrust-MW.  According to the book, each 
>thrust-MW requires 0.25 kl per hour, thus going for 200 kl of fuel 
>per hour the entire assembly.  With 30 G-hour of thrust required that 
>comes up to a rather hefty 6000 kl.  Now the only problem is that a 
>400-ton hull only has 5,600 kl of volume left in it.  Umm... this may 
>be a silly question but what am I doing wrong.  Everything else works 
>out just peacy, but this one has got me stumped.  The only thing that 
>I can do is divide the kl/hour for the assembly by four for >1G 
>ships.  Help.

        What's all this thrust-MW people are talking about??? There's no
such critter!

Your 400 Ton vessel requires 4000 _tonnes_ thrust. No thrust-MW! Using
HEPlaR, you generate 20 _tonnes of thrust_ per _MW of input power_. Ergo,
4000 tonnes thrust require 200MW of power.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@usa.net        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:21:20 +1000
From: mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Jayasuriya Class Gunship
Message-ID: <199604250621.QAA05081@smople.thehub.com.au>

 Amidst the discussion and speculation about the next incarnation of
Traveller, I thought that I may as well get off my backside and post a
starship design.  So, in commemoration of Sri Lanka's well deserved World
Cup victory over us, I give you the 'Jayasuriya' Class Gunship...

'Jayasuriya' Class Gunship

General Data

Displacement:   450 tons                Hull Armour:    392
Length:         46 metres               Volume:         6,300 m^3
Price:          MCr 298.472             Target Size:    S
Configuration:  Cylinder SL             Tech Level:     14
Mass:           8027.77t (loaded)
                7909.99t (empty)

Engineering Data

Power Plant:    1380 MW Fusion Power Plant (99MW/hit), 1 year duration
                (49.61 MW excess power)
Jump Drive:     Jump-4 (1575 m^3 fuel)
G-Rating:       3G (390 MW/G), Contra-Grav lifters (45 MW)
G-Turns:        62 (118 with jump fuel), 28.125 m^3 of fuel each
Maint:          176

Electronics

Computer:       3 x TL-14 Mod Fb Computers (1.0 MW each)
Communications: 1000 AU radio (unlim., 20 MW), 1000 AU Maser (unlim., 0.6 MW)
Avionics:       TL-10+ Avionics
Sensors:        150,000km Passive EMS fixed array (5 hexes; 0.15 MW), 300,000km
                Active EMS (10 hexes; 15 MW)
ECM/ECCM:       EMS Jammer 360,000km (12 hexes; 34 MW), Area Jammer 45,000 km
                (1.5 hexes; 16.2 MW)
Controls:       Bridge with 5 workstations, 17 other workstations

Armament

Offensive:      1 x TL-14 400 Mj Particle Accelerator (Spinal Mount). (Loc
1; Arcs 1; 
                11.1 MW; 1 crew); 210,000km MFD (-5 diff mods)
                2 x TL-14 Laser Barbettes (Loc 6,7; Arcs 1,2,3,4; 16.6 MW; 1
crew);
                300,000km MFD (-5 diff mods)
                2 x TL-14 Missile Turrets (Loc 10; Arcs 1,2,3,4; 0.3 MW; 1
crew);
                300,000km MFD (-5 diff mods)

TL-14 400 Mj Particle Accelerator 7:100 14:73 28:52 56:37

Accomodations

Life Support:   Extended (1.26 MW); Gravitic COmpensators (5G; 31.5 MW)
Crew:           24 (11 Eng, 1 Elec, 2 Maneuv, 6 Gunnery, 1 Maintenance, 1
Command)
Crew Accom:     4 x Small Staterooms (double occupancy in 3, 0.0005 MW)
                9 x Bunks (Hot Bunking)
Passenger Acc:  None
Cargo:          111.78 m^3, one small cargo hatch
Air Locks:      4

Notes:          Fuel Purification Machinery (22.7 hours to refine 3456.75 m^3)

Surface Damage Table

1:      1 Maser Ant, 2-3 AEMS Ant, 4 EMS Jammer, 5-12 PEMS Ant
2,3:    1 AL, 2-15 Radio Ant
3-4:    1-10 Radio Ant
10:     1 AL
11:     1 AL, 2-5 SCH

Internal Damage Table

1:      1-18 Elec, 19-20 PA
2-5:    1-10 Qtrs, 11-20 Hold
6-7:    1-5 Laser Barbette, 6-20 Hold
8-9:    1-20 Hold
10:     1-3 Missile Turret, 4-20 Hold
11-15:  1-20 Hold
16-17:  1-15 Hold, 16-20 Eng
18-19:  1-5 Hold, 6-20 Eng
20:     Eng

Systems

AEMS (2h)
Area Jammer (2h)
EMS Jammer (2h)
MFD (300k) (3h)
MFD (210k) (2h)
SSR (2h)
AG 2H
LS 26H
ELS 12H
JD 8H
MD 2H
PP 14H
GG 1H
FPP 8H
PA 2H
LB 2x2H
MT 2x1H

Produced in large numbers by the Solomani Confederation in the decades
preceeding the Final War, the 'Jayasuriya' Class Gunship was designed for
merchant escort and anti-piracy operations, as well as picket and patrol
duty.  The 'Jayasuriya' was designed by Waikapu Interstel (Aldebaran) and
entered service in 1072.  Unsuited for line operations, the gunship saw
service mainly in the less heavily populated rimward areas of the
Confederation before the Second Rim War.  From 1117, the type saw extensive
service against the Imperium, although it never supplanted the slightly
smaller and considerably less expensive 'Victrix' Class Multimission Sloop
in numbers.

"...mad dog, shaven head, bottle boy freaks..."

                                 Marillion, 'Berlin'


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:50:56 +0800
From: benjamin barton <benjy@iap.net.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Machine Gun Fire
Message-ID: <317F20D0.1385@iap.net.au>

David C. Broussard wrote and someone else?
{snip}
>>5. An MG round will travel through a large tree, a wall, and half a dozen of
>>your mates. There is very little that will protect you from machine gun fire.

>18" of protection is the norm for small arms fire, however, since MG barrels
>are longer, they generate more energy and thus go through a lot more.

I hate to rain on you parade:-)  But 18 inchs of what... Sand, a 5.56Nato fired from a M16A2 at 400 meters is 
stopped by half inch steel plate. If you what penetration then try Flechette as it will penetrate at this 
range. 

>>6. Body armour? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ... forget it. You are better off being
>>able to run fast and fit into small depressions in the ground.

>I can't agree with you more.  The main reason the military issues body
>armour is to protect from SHELL FRAGMENTS.  It MIGHT (big maybe) stop a
>pistol round, but a 5.56N or a 7.62N, will tear through Kevlar with little
>slowing.  Pistol rounds are usually larger and slower and can be slowed or
>stopped by Kevlar.  Rifle rounds are not siginificantly slowed by it.

Body Armour made from metal with ceramic plate inserts will stop a 7.62mm round.  Also Flak Jackets(Body 
Armour) got its name from the WW2 Bomber Crews that war it to protect them against Flak.

my 2Cr worth  .............ref Combat and Survival Vol2 Iss12 March1991

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:57:57 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Standard decoder
Message-ID:  <9604250857.aa01150@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM> wrote:

>where letter 1 is for CT, 2 for MT, 3 for TNE and 4 for T4. So, a task described
>as "8DRD, Mechanical" would be a roll on Mechanical, 8+ for Classic, Difficult
>for MT, Routine in TNE and Difficult in T4.

If the T4(NT, TAT) task system is not too different from the others(and it doesn't
seem that this would be the case) The difficulty levels would just be the same
if the skill conversion is right. As I've shown in my former post a conversion
centered at the "difficult" difficulty level works fairly well(it is not exact,
but I also stated that this is simply not possible without large conversion
tables and n'th degree mathematics) There is a minor problem with classic 
traveller, but simly giving the MT task difficulty table would be enough to
give every CT traveller referee the numbers he wants.

Thomas Kathmann

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:04:05 +1000
From: mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TL-14 400 Mj Particle Accelerator
Message-ID: <199604250704.RAA06923@smople.thehub.com.au>

A light PA weapon, featured in the 'Jayasuriya' Class Gunship (Solomani
Confederation).

Volume:         140.7   m^3
Surface Area:     4.52  m^2
Mass:           206.58  t
Price:            6.87  MCr
Power:           11.10  MW

Damage:         7:100 14:73 28:52 56:37

"...mad dog, shaven head, bottle boy freaks..."

                                 Marillion, 'Berlin'


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:04:06 +1000
From: mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TL-8 Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile
Message-ID: <199604250704.RAA06929@smople.thehub.com.au>

Volume:         35.1 m^3
Length:         4.8 m
Price:          MCr 6.492 (conventional HE warhead)
Mass:           5.2 t
Damage Value:   215
Burst Radius:   146 m
Penetration:    53C
Range:          2,700 km (19.75 sec burn endurance)
Agility:        0

Typical of IRBM systems available at TL-8, typically loaded with a 1,000kg
HE warhead, although it will also deliver 3 x 50kT nuclear warheads (MIRV
configuration), 1 x 100kT nuclear warhead or CHEM/BIOL munitions.  Used
primarily as a deterrent weapon when loaded with NUC/CHEM/BIOL warheads.
The missile is typically accurate to within 100m, making it more of a terror
weapon when fitted with a HE warhead than a precision attack weapon.
The missile is typically launched from a mobile launcher (to come).
"...mad dog, shaven head, bottle boy freaks..."

                                 Marillion, 'Berlin'


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:43:54 -0800
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: MT Products
Message-ID: <v01540a00ada4da215792@[137.229.100.95]>

>Hi, new (well, sorta) subscriber to the list.  As a former owner of TNE,
>I was wandering a local comic book/gaming store when I found a nice
>collection of MegaTraveller stuff in the corner.  I'd like opinions on
>whether or not these would be good picks ups:
>Megatraveller basic set (Player's guide, Referee's Guide, Imperial
>Encyclopedia)
>Rebellion sourcebook
>Referee's companion
>Hard Times sourcebook
>And the ever immortal Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. <8)
>I get paid on Thursday so opinions would be welcome before then. <8)
>
Well, doug, 't all depends... it would get you a feel for how things
were... and be closer to how they're gonna be than TNE... Do you want the
brief history of the shatter? Do you want a good all around game that is
full of typos?

I'd say a qualified go for it: as long as you're gonna use it between now
and august, or going to run classic or shatter (1050-1135) in the fall, go
for... But if you're gonna get it for "compatability, not enough has leaked
here to tell yet... IMHO.


William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:24:25 +0000
From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Bunnies: The final solution
Message-ID: <199604250824.JAA08516@cheviot.ncl.ac.uk>

Right we find out where their hiding, them little warren things they 
hide in and go nuclear on them! However watch out some of the smart 
ones no longer live in burrows because of "mixie" (damn good idea 
just never worked properly), so we better make it big and dirty just 
to get those little scum suckers. Let's see now atomic weapons, 
Striker book three.......hey Lois how you doing!
I thought this may cheer up the Australian members to the TML.
Cheers
Bob 


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:39:15 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Rules Equivalencies
Message-ID:  <9604251139.aa24891@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

The following article has not to be taken to serious, but its about
something I once (and now again) thought about when I read this 
discussions about task systems. 

THE CUSTOMIZABLE TASK SYSTEM

------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.0.0) SKILLS
------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.1.0) MAXIMUM SKILL: First decide about the maximum skill value of 
       a human in the system. This level is called Smax. This level 
       may be adjusted later. 

1.2.0) MINIMUM SKILL: The minimum skill value will be defined later. 
       It is called Smin

1.3.0) AVERAGE SKILL: The skill of an average human with average 
       training is called Savr. This value is determined later.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.0.0) EFFECT OF SKILL
------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.1.0) SKILL EFFECT: The skill may either produce a different target
       number, or will result in the rolling of several dice.

2.2.0) TARGET NUMBER: Proceed to step 3.0.0) if the skill will modify the
       target number and You want to roll target number or less. 
       Ignore step 8.0.0)
2.2.1) REVERTED TARGET NUMBER: If You like rolling high instead of low,
       You will have to make some minor adjustments in the evaluation
       step. Otherwise treat this system as a normal target number system.

2.3.0) NUMBER OF DICE: Number of dice systems should use a linear "curve"
       for every die roll, but this is not required by this system. 
       However, select Smax not to define the maximum skill but the number
       of steps You want for every die roll. Smin will become the minimum
       result You want for every die roll. Savr will be the average result
       for every die roll. Then proceed with steps 3.0.0) to 6.0.0) to 
       determine Gran, Adjs and N(these terms are explained later) for 
       every die roll. Then use step 8.0.0) to evaluate Your Task
       system. 
2.3.1) NUMBER AND KIND OF DICE: A special case of a number of dice system
       is to use different Gran, Adjs and N for every skill level. If You 
       want a system like this You've to use steps 3.0.0) to 5.0.0) for every
       skill level possible. Then use step 8.0.0) to evaluate Your Task
       system.
               

------------------------------------------------------------------------
3.0.0) DICE USED
------------------------------------------------------------------------

3.1.0) POPABILITY CURVE: Decide if You want a linear "curve" or a
       bell curve to determine the success of skill rolls. For a
       linear curve the Granularity(later called Gran) is 1. For a
       bell curve Gran should be equal or greater than 2. The higher
       the Gran, the better the bell curve.

3.2.0) GRANULARITY: Select the desired Gran. Remember it must be 1 for
       linear systems.
3.2.1) Devide Smax by Gran, round fractions to nearest whole number
       and look at the following table what kinds of dice You have to roll:
       Smax/Gran  Dice
           0      NA. Use either worse Gran or higher Savr
           1      NA. See above.      
           2      d2. Use 6 sided die. 1-3 = 1, 4-6 = 2
           3      d3. Use 6 sided die. 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 = 3
           4      d4. Use 4 sided die.
           5-6    d6. Use 6 sided die.
           7-8    d8. Use 8 sided die.
           9-10   d10. Use 10 sided die.
          11-13   d12. Use 12 sided die.
          14-16   d15. Use 30 sided die. Halve result. RFU.
          17-25   d20. Use 20 sided die.
          26-40   d30. Use 30 sided die.
          40-75   d50. Use d100. Halve result. RFU.
          76-125  d100. Use d100 or 2d10.
         126-250  d200. Use d6 and 2d10. d6 is first digit. 
                  1-3 = 0, 4-6 = 1.
         251-750  d600. Use d6-1 as first digit. 2d10 as other digits.
         601-1000 d1000. Use 3 d10.
           1001+  Make up yourself.  
3.2.2) Smin is equal to Gran.
3.2.3) Savr is equal to (Smin + Gran * N) / 2, where N is the number of
       faces of the dice determined in 2.2.1)
3.2.4) Smax is adjusted to (Gran * N), where N is the same as in 2.2.3)
3.2.5) Remember the N determined at 2.2.3)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.0.0) ADJUSTING MINIMUM OR MAXIMUM SKILL
------------------------------------------------------------------------

4.1.0) SELECT DESIRED MINIMUM SKILL: If You don't like Smin, but think
       Smax is not as importend, select the new desired minimum skill, 
       called Nmin.
4.1.1) Determine the adjustment Adjs by substracting Nmin from Smin, 
       retaining positive or negative sign.

4.2.0) SELECT DESIRED MAXIMUM SKILL: If You don't like Smax, but think
       Smin is not as importend,  select the new desired maximum skill, 
       called Nmax.
4.2.1) Determine the adjustment Adjs by substracting Nmax from Smax, 
       retaining positive or negative sign.
 
4.3.0) ADJUST SKILL RANGE: Adjust Smin, Smax and Savr.
4.3.1) Smin is now equal to Smin-Adjs.
4.3.2) Savr is now equal to Savr-Adjs.
4.3.3) Smax is now equal to Smax-Adjs.

Examples: 
   The GURPS system is a target number system with Gran 3, N6, Adjs 0.
   The FUDGE system is a number of dice system with Gran 1, N3, Adjs 2.
   The MT system is a reverted target number system with Gran 2, N6, 
   Adjs -1(The minimum skill in MT is actually 3, because You have to
   roll 11+, equal to 3- to be successful at an difficult task with
   skill 0. Skill 0 is therefor equal to skill 3 in this system until this
   point. Of course later in the system it is possible to adjust this 
   oddity)
   The TNE system is a target number system with Gran 1, N20, Adjs 0.
   The Star Wars System is a number of dice system with Gran 1, N6, Adjs 0.
     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.0.0) ADJUSTING MINIMUM AND MAXIMUM SKILL
------------------------------------------------------------------------

5.1.0) GET THE RIGHT TOOLS: Rent a Cray.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.0.0) DEFINE DIFFICULTIES
------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.1.0) NUMBER OF DIFFICULTY LEVELS: Select the number of difficulty 
       levels You want. This is Dnum. For this system, the central level 
       (called Difficult) is numbered 0. This
       is the level, where an average man with average skill (Savr) has 
       about 50% chance of success. Dnum may be defined as unlimited.
6.1.1) EASY DIFFICULTIES: Levels where the difficulty for success is
       increased. The number of easy difficulty levels(Deas) is (Dnum+1)/2. 
       Decide if You want ro round fractions up or down. But You have
       to round the other way in the next step. Of course if Dnum is
       unlimited, Deas is unlimited too.
6.1.2) FORMIDABLE DIFFICULTIES: Levels where the difficulty for 
       success is inceased. The number of formidable difficulty levels
       (Dfor) is (Dnum+1)/2. Remember to round in the opposite direction as
       in 6.1.1) That is Deas is not equal to Dfor if Dnum is an even number.
       And Deas+1+Dfor = Dnum must be true. Of course if Dnum is
       unlimited, Dfor is unlimited too.  
6.1.1) EFFECT OF DIFFICULTY LEVELS: You have to decide if the 
       difficulties have an SIMPLE, LINEAR or BELL effect on the 
       difficulty of the Task. A SIMPLE effect would produce the 
       easiest procedure, but may result in a very wierd Task System,
       while the LINEAR and BELL approach will produce exactly what 
       You want.

Examples:
    GURPS is a simple system with unlimited Dnum.
    The FUDGE system is a simple system with Dnum = 7, Deas = Dfor = 3
    The MT system is a simple system with Dnum = 4, Deas =2, Dfor =1.
    The TNE system is a linear system with Dnum = 5, Deas = Dfor = 2.
    The Star Wars system is a simple system with Dnum unknown to me
    at the moment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.0.0) EVALUATE TARGET NUMBER SYSTEM
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Defines the procedure of how tasks are influenced by the difficulty
and the difficulty numbers. Not complete. 

omitted to save bandwith.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.0.0) EVALUATE NUMBER OF DICE SYSTEM
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
The same as 7.0.0) for number of dice systems. Not complete.
omitted to save bandwith.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
9.0.0) EVALUATE TARGET NUMBER SYSTEM
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Verbouse conversion between all task systems produced by this
systems. Inspired by the TML. The fomer version just converted
Difficulty levels. 


Got the point ?

Thomas Kathmann

P.S.: If someone knows a system that is totally different from the
      systems I classified I would like to know.
   


  

 

------------------------------

Date:          Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:35:30 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Nanotech...
Message-ID: <23038865069@daisy.le.ac.uk>

Well, okay... so I get excited by articles I read in the *New 
Scientist.*  You can't blame me for that, can you?  Science is a dead 
exiting field (as long as you don't have to study it ;-)
Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Then we'll have what we've only dreamed about...
       a country of our oon."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 13:29:33 EDT
From: "Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Bunnies: The final solution
Message-ID: <9604251729.AA17272@cabell.vcu.edu>

> 
> Right we find out where their hiding, them little warren things they 
> hide in and go nuclear on them! However watch out some of the smart 
> ones no longer live in burrows because of "mixie" (damn good idea 
> just never worked properly), so we better make it big and dirty just 
> to get those little scum suckers. Let's see now atomic weapons, 
> Striker book three.......hey Lois how you doing!
> I thought this may cheer up the Australian members to the TML.
> Cheers
> Bob 
> 
> 

heh, 
 for kicks, let's seed the weapons with colbalt or use tailor made
biogen weapons after the nukes.....just to be sure...I mean, bunnies
are the worst galactic threat since the Borg....

                            Jason

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 669
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 670

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Reality outstrips...	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 669	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  3) 	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  4) Re: Software	by "G/ran Damberg" <DE9255@ida.utb.hb.se>
  5) Re: Machine Gun Fire	by Antti Lahtinen <al76188@cs.tut.fi>
  6) Prices	by "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
  7) Re: Prices	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  8) Technology outstrips reality...	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
  9) Good Rule Organization is Crucial	by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
 10) MG Fire Planetary Conquest	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 11) Bunnies as PLayer Characters	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 12) re: MG Fire Planetary Conquest	by PBrenton@state.ma.us

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Reality outstrips...
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.92.960425144336.21462E-100000@kelly.teleport.com>

--
 barely out of the SF stage - not as advanced as Holocrystal
 Storage (TL13) -
--
 FYI, Holographic data-crystal technology is about 4 years away..... DVD
is just the mid-step. (semi) operational prototypes(admittidley, the
reader/writer is the size of a car..) already exist.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:27:11 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 669
Message-ID: <199604260027.TAA24680@osh1.datasync.com>

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>

>        This wasn't exactly the best part of FF&S. For a 400 Td vessel you
>need 4,000tonnes thrust. HEPlaR produces 20 tonnes per MW input. Therefore
>you need 200MW, not 800. Now, each MW of power requires 0.25kl of LHyd and
>you want 30G-hours (which is 60G-Turns in BL terms -- is that what you
>wanted?). 200MW for 4Gs means 50MW for 1G. 50MW requires 12.5kl of fuel per
>hour. So 30GHours requires 375kl. Much better.
>------------------------------
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>
>
>        What's all this thrust-MW people are talking about??? There's no
>such critter!
>
>Your 400 Ton vessel requires 4000 _tonnes_ thrust. No thrust-MW! Using
>HEPlaR, you generate 20 _tonnes of thrust_ per _MW of input power_. Ergo,
>4000 tonnes thrust require 200MW of power.


I think the problem here is that FF&S and the Ship Design Worksheet included
with the Player Forms Supplement work this out in two different ways.  A
Thrust-Megawatt(ThMW) is a Megawatt from the power source devoted to thrust.
According to the Ship Design Worksheet, a ship must have ThMW equal to:

                0.5 * Hull Disp (Td) * Maneuver G's

This is, of course, stated no where in FF&S.  FF&S is rather vague on the
subject unless you assume a set average number of tonnes(weight) per
ton(displacement/volume), which is what David did above.  I think I came up
with the (or as close to the) method used by the design staff by comparing
FF&S with BL and the Ship Design Worksheet.  I remember BL being the key
that made the peices fit together dispite the misprint of 0.1 * Hull Disp *
ManG.

Anyway, your 400 ton 4G ship will require 800 ThMW and will consume 50
liters of fuel per G per hour(this is how the listing in the book examples
shou be read).  Also, as was mentioned before:

>Your problem is that the ship needs 200 kiloliters of fuel/hour, but 
>that's at an acceleration of 4Gs.  So for every hour the ship 
>accelerates at 4Gs(every 200 kl of fuel it burns) it produces 4 
>G-hours of acceleration, not one.  So, to get 30 G-hours of 
>acceleration, you only need 7 and 1/2 hours of fuel.


Anyway, I just thought I would add my input to the discussion.

I don't know if I'm crazy, but it seems that lots of meople get confused
with the similarity between tons and tonnes.  One tonne is a measure of
weight equal to 1000 kilograms (also called a metric ton (more confusion)
and about 2200 pounds)  one ton (not metric ton, just ton) is a measure of
displacement or volume and can vary in weight or tonnes.  Just immagine
trying to rig you ship for maneuver for a load of feathers and then trying
to carry a load of lead. (I know its an over-used example, but it is a good
one.)

Hope this info helps whoever asked the initial question as well as anyone
else that was wondering.

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:59:20 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: xboat@MPGN.COM
Cc: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <v02140b00ada65c14f9fd@[193.12.250.151]>

I'm in the middle of writing a utility for MT that takes a starsystem
string (Name, hex, UPP, Data) and returns a comma separated list of
planets, moons, gasgiants, companionstars et c. I follow the MT rules
closely except where they INMH are wrong like allowing gasgiants in the
hospitable zone. I have some problems though:

The rules for populating other worlds in the system are very strange. Roll
2D6-2 for pop. If inner zone -5, if outer zone -4, if size R(ring) pop=0 if
atmos is not 5, 6 or 8 -2.
These rules taken from MT Referee Manual can easily create lots of planets
with higher pop than the mainworld and also with higher TL.

Any simple ideas about how this could be made more realistic?
PS In my system I have a stat called zone which states how far from the
hospitable zone the planet is, positive inwards and negative outwards. It
could be used for pop generation DS

/Backman



------------------------------

Date:          Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:22:30 +0100
From: "G/ran Damberg" <DE9255@ida.utb.hb.se>
To: Anders Backman <Anders.Backman@macademic.se>
Cc: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Software
Message-ID: <6305291F58@ida.utb.hb.se>


Hi,

I don't remeber if this is stated in the rules or if it's one of my 
house rules, but...
I always place the mainworld in the hospitable zone if it's 
available (after placing asteroidbelts and gas giants, if a gas giant 
is in the hospitable zone i place the mainworld as a satelite to it). 
This has the effect that all other planets get a -4 or -5 
pop DM, and the chance of a secondary planet getting a higher 
population than the mainworld is small.

On 26 Apr 96 , Anders Backman wrote:

> I'm in the middle of writing a utility for MT that takes a
> starsystem string (Name, hex, UPP, Data) and returns a comma
> separated list of planets, moons, gasgiants, companionstars et c. I
> follow the MT rules closely except where they INMH are wrong like
> allowing gasgiants in the hospitable zone. I have some problems
> though:
> 
> The rules for populating other worlds in the system are very
> strange. Roll 2D6-2 for pop. If inner zone -5, if outer zone -4, if
> size R(ring) pop=0 if atmos is not 5, 6 or 8 -2. These rules taken
> from MT Referee Manual can easily create lots of planets with higher
> pop than the mainworld and also with higher TL.
> 
> Any simple ideas about how this could be made more realistic?
> PS In my system I have a stat called zone which states how far from
> the hospitable zone the planet is, positive inwards and negative
> outwards. It could be used for pop generation DS
> 
> /Backman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:52:15 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <al76188@cs.tut.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Machine Gun Fire
Message-ID: <199604261052.NAA28409@cs.tut.fi>

> 3. It is actually easier to hit a target that is some distance from you,
> because you can walk fire onto it. 

        This is the way I was taught to use a MG. During assault range
        training (Broken country with approaching pop-up targets that fall
        down when hit. Dug-in positions with remote-controlled explosive
        charges to simulate enemy fire.  Targets approach from cover to
        cover, and when hit, the target is re-set to its starting postilion.
        Beats any computer game.) I usually used a 7.62x39 belt-fed LMG with
        1-4 tracer ratio. After I got the hang of it, it was relatively easy
        to knock down the targets by steering the tracer line.

>4. If you are within the beaten zone of a machine gun, you are dead.

        Usually yes. A dug-in MG or a pillbox is usually a major problem,
        especially if you don't have an underbarrel GL or shoulder-fired
        AT launcher.

> ... however, since MG barrels are longer, they generate more energy and
> thus go through a lot more.

        Longer barrel does not always mean that the bullet would have more
        energy. Beyond the critical point the bullet-barrel friction will
        be grater than the accelerating pressure, and the bullet will slow
        down. For example, most .22 LR rounds will have the highest muzzle
        velocity when fired through 37 cm barrel.

        Basically, the kinetic energy of bullet depends on the energy stored
        in the powder, and the efficiency of the barrel. Too short and too
        long barrels will have poor efficiency.

> 6. Body armour? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ... forget it. You are better off being 
> able to run fast and fit into small depressions in the ground. 

        There are many kinds of body armor, but generally it is better
        to find a cozy hole than catch a bullet. At least three different
        types of body armor are used in the Finnish Defense Forces:

        Fragment Vest is a light armor that is designed to stop fragments
        and ricochets. It might stop a pistol bullet from a long range

        Bullet Vest is designed to stop all pistol bullets and might stop
        a rifle bullet from a long range.

        Assault Vest is designed to stop all small-arms bullets, but 14.5 mm
        HMG will knock holes through it.

        ---

        I think that TNE autofire rules can only be used to simulate
        suppression fire, where multiple burst or continuous full-auto
        is fired at the general direction of enemy. This basically means
        hosing down the enemy positions, and forcing them to stay down.

        Point fire means firing aimed bursts at single target. This is
        much more accurate and lethal than suppression fire. For point
        fire I used the autofire rules taken from "Call of Cthulhu".

        In TNE terms the rules are:

        For each additional shot fired at target during a burst, the hit
        change is increased by +1. However, no matter how many shots are
        fired, these bonuses can only double the original skill.

        If a hit is scored, a dice roll shows how many bullets actually
        hits the target.

        Example: 3-round burst gives (3-1 = ) +2 to hit, and may cause
        1d3 hits. 10-round burst gives (10-1 = ) +9 to hit and may cause
        1d10 hits.


        Antti Lahtinen    :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        al76188@cs.tut.fi :


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:03:51 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Prices
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960426135928.15511B-100000@marx.hut.fi>

Has anyone ever consireded the prices of everyday wares in Traveller? I 
have MT and TN, and they both list very accurately the cost of a lid of a 
bullet clip, but nowhere is any reference to normal food, clothes etc. 
This amazes me, because almost every fantasy game I have played lists 
these things ... perhaps they have food automats at every corner in 
Traveller..

Mikko Parviainen
Life sucks and then you die.


------------------------------

Date: 26 Apr 96 08:25:11 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Prices
Message-ID: <19022714@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

actually, the assumption seems to be that if you keep yourself sufficiently
stimulated by the earnest cause you pursue, you'll never feel the effects of
hunger. Woe be to the foolish character that doesn't keep up the needed
velocity! It's no wonder people waste away so fast in captivity....

;-)

------------------------------

Date:          Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:52:36 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Technology outstrips reality...
Message-ID: <2468210334B@daisy.le.ac.uk>

Okay, no matter what current tech-level our society can be presently 
considered to hold (it seems about TL-8 for most of the fields, as 
represented in MT Referee's Companion, as I think I have said before) 
the question is how technology would affect the perception of the new 
incarnation of Traveller.  Traveller has always in the past, as far 
as I can tell, had a reputation of being a *science*-fiction game.  
Its various off-shoots, for example 2300 AD, have been considered 
"hard(ish?)" science-fiction.  TNE went along way to bringing this 
point across with the FF&S product (though it would have been nice if 
they had actually given design sequences for items other than guns, 
guns, guns, armour and vehicles... but that's just a personal 
preference).  However, if T4 cannot keep up with changing 
technologies, in my opinion, it will begin to be seen as a 
space-opera game.  That is how most of the people I have talked to 
about Traveller are beginning to see it at present, let alone in the 
future.  The technology just isn't "cutting edge" enough to make 
people say "yeah, cool."  One roleplaying research scientist friend 
of mine said that he thought Traveller was, essentially, the 
present-day with spaceships.  Okay, some of the stuff could be 
considered "high-tech" (artificial gravity, inertial dampeners, 
bonded super-dense armour, etc., etc.) but the statement is 
essentially true.  Even optimistic me could not really 
justify putting the majority of *Regency* level technology more than 
100 years in the future (let alone 3000-odd years!).  

So, if this perception of Traveller changes from sci-fi to space 
opera will this have an adverse affect upon the sales of the new 
incarnation?  People might say, "To hell with buying Traveller 4!  I 
could just buy Star Wars and play in a system which doesn't have the 
complexity *and* I can put whatever darned technology in I like."  
Would this mean that Traveller 4 would still have the die-hard 
followers of Traveller and that would be it.  

Okay, so my knowledge of the game-industry isn't that detailed, but 
this is just how the majority of people that I know think things are 
going to go.  It would seem relatively logical to assume that if T4 
is going to sell, and sell well (as I hope it well), then it will 
have to hit people with something that they haven't seen before, and 
not just increasing efficiency and range.  

Ode to being flamed... ;-)

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Then we'll have what we've only dreamed about...
       a country of our oon."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 20:45:43 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'dperrin@mag7.com'" <dperrin@mag7.com>,
Subject: Good Rule Organization is Crucial
Message-ID: <01BB33C8.154156E0@ppp058.on.rim.or.jp>

Mr. Perrin,

Thank you for writing to the Traveller Mailing List.  We are all happy to 
hear from you and the IG team.

I would like to make a small suggestion.  Whatever rules you design, please 
consider numbering the paragraphs (as with wargames), including flowcharts 
for rules procedures, and writing the rules in the type of simple 
instructional language used in many good wargames.  Examples and prose 
should not be included in the main body of a subsystem of rules so as not to 
break up the flow of instructions.  I would suggest examples be placed in 
the margins or written after the rules section in question.  Please consider 
focusing on utility and clarity.  I may be barking up the wrong tree, so I 
ask that you forward this to whomever it concerns if you are not involved 
with this aspect of the design.

I am especially concerned with rules for the various types of combat and 
design sequences.  Learning these systems in the various Traveller editions 
has gotten progressively more difficult and confusing, because the rules 
were not well organized and clear.  One had to jump around often, interpret 
ambiguous flowery prose, and memorize what paragraphs the exceptions to the 
rules were buried in and so on.  It gets worse when one is actually 
refereeing combat in a game and the players must wait impatiently (bad for 
introducing new players!) while the referee tries to figure out how to 
resolve shotgun fire, for example.  The rules should be highly organized to 
the point where it should be obvious what the next step is, and references 
to other rules should have paragraph numbers (or symbols or whatever).  I've 
been refereeing Traveller in all its incarnations since 1982, and I often 
get slowed down by the convoluted manner in which the rules are 
disorganized.

If for no other reason, your company's emphasis on getting new players for 
Traveller should be reason enough to organize the rules in such a manner 
that they can be learned and applied quickly and easily.

Thank you, and good luck!

Armand Suarez


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:39:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: MG Fire Planetary Conquest
Message-ID: <199604261539.KAA03644@ConnectI.com>

The Army policy is 18" of something defines "hard cover".  18" of wood,
earth, etc.  This is not necessarily always true, however it is a good "rule
of thumb" to use when discussing cover with people who think a car door will
stop a rifle round (cause it did in Terminator).  The main reason for using
18" is to emphasise that a Sheet Rock wall will not stop a bullet, nor will
a car.  You need a boulder, a really big tree, or a hill.  It is kind of
hard to find steel plate on the battlefield, except for that knocked out
Bradley B-).

As for Body Armour with metal plates and ceramic inserts stopping a 7.62, at
what range, and how much does it weigh.  The Flack Jacket issued by the U.S.
Army is made of Kevlar because it is lighter than the old style flack
jackets and is supposed to stop shrapnel better.  The major problem with
perceptions of personal armour is that a normal person can carry enough
protection to stop a normal small arm round.

When using Traveller rules, the difference in TL is good because a modern TL
8 Kevlar Vest can pretty much stop a .50 cal Musket ball TL-3, although you
will still probably get a few broken ribs and get knocked down. 

Speaking of Knock Down, there aren't many systems that do knock down well,
and blunt trauma also.  I did like TNE's handling of it however (well at
least the blunt trauma (even if it was a little low)).

I guess my problem with body armour is this... It is too heavy to wear for
extended periods in amounts that will actually protect you from damage.  You
can accept a Kevlar Vest that will slow down a bullet so that it might not
kill you, but it will still most likely knock you out of the combat for a
fair amount of time.  Now with the invention of Power Assist body armour,
you can get a lot more armour on a person to make them nigh invulnerable
from small arms fire, however, that person can then carry so much more
weight in the form of offensive firepower that the net result is about the
same, to whit a comparably equiped soldier can make you just as dead with
one shot.  To this end I believe the cost effectiveness issue will preclude
equiping lots of troopers with Power Armour.  The vast majority will wear
little if any armour and carry a missle or such for taking out the
occaisional Power Trooper.  The only real use Power Armour gets is for
things like Orbital Assaults, or when going up against vastly inferior
forces.  Even so a Power Trooper is just like a small tank, and in some
cases more expensive.  They can be very powerful if the opposition has no
way of hurting them, but are managable in the larger scale.

Sorry to ramble again, but Battle Dress just doesn't make alot of sense to
me, the Walkers from 2300ad (or the Schalli Walkers from POT) made more
sense sort of a small mobile Armored Fighting Vehicle that carries squad
support weapons and is largely impervious to small arms fire.  Whole
battalions of Battle Dress strike me as expensive and not nearly as
efficient (except for orbital invasions).

DCB

P.S. has anyone ever really thought out the amount of materiel needed to
invade another planet?  Think of the logistics of moving a force from a
planet 1 jump away, then supporting them from an orbital area through a
resisted landing.  Then comes the resupply issues keeping them supplied with
ammo, feed, replacements for equipment and personel.  It is a massive
undertaking that we tend to gloss over.  I beleive the backbone of the
military would be the fast merchant ship that can land on a planets surface
open up nose and tail and load/offload quickly.  Figure out sometime how
much m^3 is takes to move a Grav Battalion from one planet to another.
Don't forget to figure in the Mechanics and the spare parts.  It brings up
an interesting point that interstellar invasion just might be impossible on
a large scale.

DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:40:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Bunnies as PLayer Characters
Message-ID: <199604261540.KAA03763@ConnectI.com>

> Right we find out where their hiding, them little warren things they 
> hide in and go nuclear on them! However watch out some of the smart 
> ones no longer live in burrows because of "mixie" (damn good idea 
> just never worked properly), so we better make it big and dirty just 
> to get those little scum suckers. Let's see now atomic weapons, 
> Striker book three.......hey Lois how you doing!
> I thought this may cheer up the Australian members to the TML.
> Cheers
> Bob 
>

You guys need to check out OCS' game Battlelords of the 23rd Century.  In
their Galctic Handbook II, they introduce a race of genenginered rabbits
that are about 6' tall plus ears.  They are bipedal, and are designed to act
like rednecks from the Deep South (U.S.).  They refrain from using high tech
weapons like blasters and Pulse Cannons and use instead muskets that they
call Foo-Foo Guns.  They also keep on about how the South WILL Rise Again
(although none know what the SOuth actually is.  Lastly they have a 1%
chance per month to fall into a cataleptic state where they will hop around
and hide eggs.

The best part is that they are used as an actuall race.

Battlelords, the cross between Paranoia, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu.  It
is a hoot, but since you character will likely not make it past the first
encounter, then it kindof has to be.

DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 13:01:56 -24000
From: PBrenton@state.ma.us
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: re: MG Fire Planetary Conquest
Message-ID: <vines.jyh8+E4EUlA@vinesgw1.state.ma.us>

[broussi@connecti.com] says;
>To this end I believe the cost effectiveness issue will preclude
>equiping lots of troopers with Power Armour.  The vast majority will wear
>little if any armour and carry a missle or such for taking out the
>occaisional Power Trooper.  The only real use Power Armour gets is for
>things like Orbital Assaults, or when going up against vastly inferior
>forces.  Even so a Power Trooper is just like a small tank, and in some
>cases more expensive.  They can be very powerful if the opposition has no
>way of hurting them, but are managable in the larger scale.
>
>Sorry to ramble again, but Battle Dress just doesn't make alot of sense to
>me, the Walkers from 2300ad (or the Schalli Walkers from POT) made more
>sense sort of a small mobile Armored Fighting Vehicle that carries squad
>support weapons and is largely impervious to small arms fire.  Whole
>battalions of Battle Dress strike me as expensive and not nearly as
>efficient (except for orbital invasions).

I've always thought that Powered Armor doctrine would be limited to certain 
settings;

1). As a support member of a squad in planetary armies.

2). As support squads in planetary armies (one per platoon maybe).

3). As regular troopers in Marine Assault units (drop troops especially).

It is interesting that the very factor you mention, the cost and difficulty 
of supporting an operation from outside a given system, would to me lead to 
support the greater use of armored troops for orbital invasion.

If need to invade a planet, but want to cut costs and the number of hulls 
required to do so, you want to "multiply" your forces.  This means;

1). More armored vehicles

2). Infantry in armor

3). More support like airborne CAS (battlefield Meson gunboats?) artillery 
and ortillery (orbital artillery for those who haven't seen the term).

Think of it this way.  The (arbitrary) combat value of an unarmored soldier 
is one.  That soldier in BD is valued at 4.  The addition of armor to the 
transported materials is equal to half again what the soldier alone requires. 
Therefore we can get 4 times the combat value for 1.5 times the transport 
space required.

Dollars spent being equal, there is a trade off of numbers for capability.  
Shipborne troops, with the emphasis on limited space, have the need to be as 
effective as possible with as little space taken up as possible for their 
value in combat.  Planetary troops do not have the same priorities and can 
substitute two, three or four soldiers for the increased value of the single 
BD trooper.  Planetaries are at the numbers end of the tradeoff, Shipbornes 
are at the capability end.

As for whether it is possible to conduct major troop movements across 
planetary distances, last time I looked (using MT) that question did not bear 
very close scrutiny.  I tried to design a battalion sized assault transport 
at 5000 tons and ended up with a platoon transport.  (I think I made the 
mistake of trying to include the support units as well).  Also, I think 
several fleet carriers for each invasion would be the norm, since hundreds or 
thousands of shipboard fighters would be needed to provide the initial 
support for landing operations on a well-inhabited planet of any considerable 
tech level.  This all assumes that somehow "deep meson" sites of MT and CT 
canon (it has one 'n' in this usage) have been removed (violently) or made 
inoperative in other ways (destruction of sensors, jamming, espionage).

This also brings us nicely back to the idea of "Megafreighters" which designs 
have been seen here.  I am certain that it takes 10,000 to 1 million ton 
freighters to provide a division with the supplies it needs on a daily basis 
(not to mention transporting the division itself) to conduct an invasion (or 
mopping up).  I would, as a commander, assume that there will be no usable 
supplies on-planet (If the native population is hostile), and in any case I 
hope I'm attacking a lower-tech world which would not be able to supply 
certain items (ammo, missile reloads, etc. etc.).  

One nightmarish possibility is that the planet cannot even supply *water*.  
Can you imagine if the Allies in WWII had needed to bring all their own water 
with them across the beaches?  (I see serious scenario possibilities here).

Enough ranting,

Peter Brenton
pbrenton@state.ma.us

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 670
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 671

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 669	by Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
  2) Re: Prices	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  3) Re:  Starship Design...	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  4) Re: MG fire	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
  5) Potential Deployment of Power Armour	by Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
  6) Re: Bunnies as PLayer Characters	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  7) Re: Prices	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 670	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  9) High Tech in Traveller, Please!	by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
 10) GRAV YACHT DOWN	by prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
 11) Armored Infantry (Combat Armor and Battle Dress)	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:18:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 669
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD.3.91.960426101339.263A-100000@dagobah.vindaloo.com>

On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 traveller@mpgn.com wrote:

> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:50:56 +0800
> From: benjamin barton <benjy@iap.net.au>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Machine Gun Fire
> Message-ID: <317F20D0.1385@iap.net.au>
> 
> David C. Broussard wrote and someone else?
> {snip}
> >>5. An MG round will travel through a large tree, a wall, and half a dozen of
> >>your mates. There is very little that will protect you from machine gun fire.
> 
> >18" of protection is the norm for small arms fire, however, since MG barrels
> >are longer, they generate more energy and thus go through a lot more.
> 
> I hate to rain on you parade:-)  But 18 inchs of what... Sand, a 5.56Nato fired from a M16A2 at 400 meters is 
> stopped by half inch steel plate. If you what penetration then try Flechette as it will penetrate at this 
> range. 
> 

I think the first guy was talking about full auto fire from a .50 cal 
LMG. Not from a M16A2.

Chris
--
      __o          "Candy Apple Grey"
    _`\<,_           -Bob Mould/Gary Hart
___(*)/_(*)____.___o____..___..o...________ooO..._____________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                         For pgp key finger: <chilton@cluster.mcs.net>


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:30:50 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Prices
Message-ID: <199604262130.QAA24403@osh1.datasync.com>

>Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:03:51 +0300 (EET DST)
>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>
>Has anyone ever consireded the prices of everyday wares in Traveller? I 
>have MT and TN, and they both list very accurately the cost of a lid of a 
>bullet clip, but nowhere is any reference to normal food, clothes etc. 
>This amazes me, because almost every fantasy game I have played lists 
>these things ... perhaps they have food automats at every corner in 
>Traveller..
>------------------------------
>
>Date: 26 Apr 96 08:25:11 EDT
>From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
>
>actually, the assumption seems to be that if you keep yourself sufficiently
>stimulated by the earnest cause you pursue, you'll never feel the effects of
>hunger. Woe be to the foolish character that doesn't keep up the needed
>velocity! It's no wonder people waste away so fast in captivity....
>

I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly (I don't have my MT stuff here at
work to check on it), but doesn't MT require that each year a character has
to spend a certain amount of money, an ammount multiplied by SS IIRC.  This
money is supposed to cover the clothes and food and stuff the character
buys.  I think I remember something about this being necessary to maintain
the characters SS at it's current level.  I don't know how this would apply
to characters who spend a year/years stranded on an uninhabited planet.

This doesn't leave for much role playing and doesn't force characters to
mind their money as much as might be necessary in real life, but who really
wants to role play paying the bills. :)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:15:27 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  Starship Design...
Message-ID: <v02140b00ada51f3a6c1a@[193.12.250.151]>

>For
>example, at the moment we have been able to construct "nano-robots,"
>something which does not come into the old MT time-line until
>something like TL-17.

We do NOT have the ability to construct "nano-robots" now nor will we in
the near future. If you're interested in nanomachines you should pick up
"Nanosystems" by K Eric Drexler ISBN 0-471-57547-X. It's very technical but
describes how they could work and also how nanocomputers might be
constructed. For good rules on designing robots, nano or not, pick up GURPS
Robots which has the best robot designsystem I've seen, far surpassing the
ones in JTAS, Robots and Vampire Fleets.

/Backman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 15:20:11 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: MG fire
Message-ID: <16FCE34354C@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>


> 

> 
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:52:15 +0300
> From: Antti Lahtinen <al76188@cs.tut.fi>


> I usually used a 7.62x39 belt-fed LMG with
>         1-4 tracer ratio. After I got the hang of it, it was relatively easy
>         to knock down the targets by steering the tracer line.

	But remember Murphy's Law of Combat #16: Tracers trace both ways.

	I have caught unwary players more than once with that one (in Trav
as well as other games).  Such a high tracer rate works well only if
you're in a well-fortified position, and the other guys don't have
grenade launchers, etc.

	
Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 22:04:31 -0300
From: Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Potential Deployment of Power Armour
Message-ID: <199604270104.WAA08795@catbert.>


From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)

[ I have removed an extensive context of well reasoned discussion with which
I quite agree in order to enter one minor quibble]

>Whole
>battalions of Battle Dress strike me as expensive and not nearly as
>efficient (except for orbital invasions).
[snip]

It is worth keeping in mind that, 60 years ago, the idea of the "all tank
army" in which large formations of men, infantry as well as specialist
tanks, traveled into battle in armored fighting vehicles was considered
ridiculous.  Today, its considered the norm  for first line forces in high
intensity conflict.  The question of efficiency in a military context is a
difficult one for two reasons:
(1) the actual value of a trained soldier is often underestimated.  The you
are really quite expensive, you never have enough of them when you need
them,  and if you run out of them while fighting a battle you are in serious
trouble.
(2) the emotional value of an individual soldier is higher still.  If you
are Joe Stalin making policy for the Soviet Union in WWII, then the value of
the individual soldier is 0, and you set them on top of the tanks -- the
tanks are worth real money;  If you are in the high command for a regime
that cannot afford to ignore its people and is likely to fight a war, than
yes mam, little Johnie's going to have the most effective equipment money
can buy, yessiree.

That does not mean that I think that every imperial trooper will be in
battledress, any more than every soldier today deploys on tracks behind
armour plate.  (For one thing, the  imperium seems to be pretty good at
ignoring its people).  But I would not be surprised to see them by the
battalion, if not by the division.

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:51:01 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Bunnies as PLayer Characters
Message-ID: <199604270151.SAA07047@mom.hooked.net>

Ominous.  Very ominous.


Last recorded message from Imperial Marine boarding party sent to Zhodani
cruiser _Zqhoxrl_, 195/1109:

"By the stars of heaven...their nobles...they...they aren't wearing turbans!
Those are EARS!!!!!!!!!!"

<comm lost>


Cue Twilight Zone music

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#  "To treat your facts with imagination is one     #
#   thing.  But to imagine your facts is another."  #
#                                  -John Burroughs  #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 20:26:41 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Prices
Message-ID: <199604270326.UAA19074@mom.hooked.net>

Mikko V. I. Parviainen asked about everyday prices in Traveller...

I seem to remember a rule from MT(?) that stated that a PC had to spend an
amount equal to his/her SOC x Cr250 each month to keep up apperances.  Not
spending enough would lower the apparent SOC to the appropriate level.

I enjoyed this rule, as it freed me from gaming out every instance where a
PC had to part with a single Credit!
# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#  "To treat your facts with imagination is one     #
#   thing.  But to imagine your facts is another."  #
#                                  -John Burroughs  #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 21:05:12 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 670
Message-ID: <199604270405.VAA22837@mom.hooked.net>

At 04:58 PM 4/26/96 -0400, David C. Broussard wrote:

<snip>

>To this end I believe the cost effectiveness issue will preclude
>equiping lots of troopers with Power Armour.  The vast majority will wear
>little if any armour and carry a missle or such for taking out the
>occaisional Power Trooper.  The only real use Power Armour gets is for
>things like Orbital Assaults, or when going up against vastly inferior
>forces.  Even so a Power Trooper is just like a small tank, and in some
>cases more expensive.  They can be very powerful if the opposition has no
>way of hurting them, but are managable in the larger scale.

An experiment for those interested.  Build a squad of TL14 Troopers.  Give
them whatever weapons you feel necessary.  Now, total up the cost.  Use the
same amount to equip troops with Combat Enviroment Suits, Gauss Rifles, and
(most importantly) HEAP RAM Grenades.  Let the Troopers go first, odds are a
lot of smoking bodies.  Unfortunatly, there are a lot of unpowered folks
left, and they all let fly with the HEAP rounds.

Powered Armor troops have a limited use.  In the Imperium, Marines and Jump
Troops serve to open planet-heads, seize starports, and neutralize, or at
least confuse, defending commands.

>Sorry to ramble again, but Battle Dress just doesn't make alot of sense to
>me, the Walkers from 2300ad (or the Schalli Walkers from POT) made more
>sense sort of a small mobile Armored Fighting Vehicle that carries squad
>support weapons and is largely impervious to small arms fire.  Whole
>battalions of Battle Dress strike me as expensive and not nearly as
>efficient (except for orbital invasions).

Well, Battle Dress is far more portable.  Also, it seems to me that it
meshes better with troops.  Instead of 3 meters of robotic terror, you have
a bulky suit fighting along side you.

<snip>

>P.S. has anyone ever really thought out the amount of materiel needed to
>invade another planet?  Think of the logistics of moving a force from a
>planet 1 jump away, then supporting them from an orbital area through a
>resisted landing.  Then comes the resupply issues keeping them supplied with
>ammo, feed, replacements for equipment and personel.  It is a massive
>undertaking that we tend to gloss over.  I beleive the backbone of the
>military would be the fast merchant ship that can land on a planets surface
>open up nose and tail and load/offload quickly.  Figure out sometime how
>much m^3 is takes to move a Grav Battalion from one planet to another.
>Don't forget to figure in the Mechanics and the spare parts.  It brings up
>an interesting point that interstellar invasion just might be impossible on
>a large scale.

<Grin> Have I thought about it?  Most of my Traveller career!

My brother and I had an interesting debate on the topic, centered around
where you want the fleet to come in, at the mainworld or a Gas Giant.  I
held out for GG since it gives you a marshalling point.  Using microjumps to
arrive at the system's main planet gives you a slight edge, since the enemy
can't predict *exactly* when you'll re-appear.

There are three basic invasion types.  Unopposed, when you show up and land
occupation troops unmolested.  Light Resistance, where the world is prepared
to fight, but the outcome is never really in doubt, and Opposed, where the
enemy has the means and the will to turn this thing into a bloodbath.  It is
this final type that concerns us.

The first targets will be communications.  If you can knock them off the
air, you have reduced their effiency ten-fold.  This will most likely be
done from orbit.  The next phase, where the invasion really begins, is
seizing a "beachhead", preferably the starport.  This is accomplished using
Jump Troops.  Equipped with Battle Dress and the gear that can stuffed in a
capsule with them, they are sent to seize transportation points, surviving
commo facilities, government buildings, etc.  But the first priorty has to
be to secure a landing area for the first wave.

The first wave down will most likely be dismounted lift infantry.  their
mission will be to relieve the Jump Troops, who by this time will be low on
everything, and to secure the port.  They will probably bring specialist
units (port control, EPW guards, enginners) with them.

Next down will be Grav Tanks.  Once again the primary mission is too secure
the landing point against the inevitable counter-attack.

Assuming the enemy doesn't wipe the force off the planet, the real
off-loading can begin.

I won't go into all the gritty details, but reading about Operation Overlord
can tell you the massive nightmare that a large invasion produces for the
logistics staff.
# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#  "To treat your facts with imagination is one     #
#   thing.  But to imagine your facts is another."  #
#                                  -John Burroughs  #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:08:15 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: High Tech in Traveller, Please!
Message-ID: <01BB345E.45BFF9C0@ppp047.on.rim.or.jp>

>>One roleplaying research scientist friend of mine said that he thought 
Traveller was, essentially, the present-day with spaceships.  Okay, some of 
the stuff could be considered "high-tech" (artificial gravity, inertial 
dampeners, bonded super-dense armour, etc., etc.) but the statement is 
essentially true.  Even optimistic me could not really justify putting the 
majority of *Regency* level technology more than 100 years in the future 
(let alone 3000-odd years!).

Some of you may put me in the same category as the bunnies, but I agree with 
this statement 200%.  I would like to reiterate my plea that one of the 
first scenarios produced for the new Traveller is one that goes past the 
future of TNE (c. 1300?) to give us technology that feels like high tech (TL 
17-18!! Great!), as Mark explained.  Of course, I would also like to see the 
future of the TNE background, but I also think Traveller would do well to 
have interesting new high tech published for it.  The science can only be 
explained well, it doesn't have to be possible with today's knowledge (like 
most current Traveller tech). I hope the IG people read this, and realize 
that this would be another way to attract new players!  Certainly going back 
to the Interstellar Wars or Year 0 is not going to give us high tech; 
instead it will be a step backward.

Armand

Is IG reading the list?


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 03:53:05 -0500
From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: GRAV YACHT DOWN
Message-ID: <199604270853.DAA03893@marlin.gulf.net>

Here's a little break from CT,MT,TNE,T4 discussions...I for one have
read the word milieu more than I care to.  Just the last module I wrote.

****************************************************************************
***********
GRAV YACHT DOWN: A TRAVELLER ADVENTURE   by Tariq Rashid


You sit in the lobby of the vertiport of the City of Aubaine, located in the
wilderness regions on the planet Aurigae.  The 2nd planet in the Mentor
system.  Bright white sunlight shines through the giant overhanging sunroof
throwing the shadows of the sargos trees growing indoors onto the floor  and
occupants of the lobby. Over the PA system you hear a female voice announce.....

"New Aubayn Lines grav yacht to Kyranda will begin boarding in 30 minutes"

You are about to board the wilderness Explorer, a Grav Yacht which is the
only way out of Aubayn for one week. 

The Grav Yacht, Wilderness Explorer (WE) is scheduled to depart at 0800 Std
On 003/1220 from the small vertiport at Aubayn.  It will travel a low
altitude low speed scenic route (About 100 meters, 100 kph) about 3600 km to
the Starport at Kyranda.  A Starship is outbound from there at 1200 Std
005/1220.  The next ship will arrive two weeks later.

The Pcs for the mosr part will be gathered in the lobby and can take some
time to get to know one another. There will be NPCs in the group to agitate
things if no Pcs do it.
One NPC, an agent of the Nemon National League, will arrive just in time
with Union of Senled operatives pursuing about one hour behind.

The departure of the Wilderness Explorer will be delayed 30+(1d6*5) minutes
which should be a cause for greatagitation for this NPC.  The Yacht can be
boarded by reservation only which the Union of Senled agents do not have.
They have no legal authority and so cannot force their way on board.

THE TRAVELLERS
The group of travellers will consist of

AhrAhdNhiCour. A Sraph Pilgrim coming to learn about another joint
consciousness creature rumored to live in the wilds of this planet.  The
pilgrim was not able to locate this creature and is returning home
dissappointed.  Sraph are a group consciousness creature that are normally
bonded together in groups of 4-6, 2 are barely sentient,and one..well.  Ala
"A Fire Upon the Deep"

A wealthy tourist couple on Vacation with lots of souveniers including one
very strange looking ovoid object purchased from a "collecter"

Takaro "Taki" Kurosawa.  The Nemon Agent with info about secret Union of
Senled bases/experiments.

Ophelra Bresheliah, A young guntotin' hunter with a big gun and several
dragon skulls.(the prince of Arturon)

Ambrus Csazar, Neosol Federation Gamma soldier survivalist returning from
leave where he camped out in the wilderness for two weeks.

Dr Anna Quintanna.  A Xenoarchaeologist and her field tech Neeva returning
from a research expedtion.

Arcturus the Ellowyn, friend of the tine creature, extremely powerful
psionic but 
physically very frail. Wispy flowing limbs. 

Strephon Pecorin, Young business man with cellcom,minicomputer, PDA etc.
Trying to make money off of Aubayn's new rapid growth.

Robert or BOB, this is a Personal Digital Assistant or rather a android that
acts as Strephon Pecorin's aide.  He is a TL 12 grav supported droid with a
full commo suite.
The same things that affect the yacht have a peculiar effect on BOB.

Mr Foote, the Union of Senled Agent masquerading as a collector of
artifacts. He wants to find out what Taki Kurosawa knows and if possible
kill him without being caught.

The crew of the WE including the Pilot(PC), Copilot,Engineers(1), and
Stewards(2)



DEPARTURE
One of the Union agents gets aboard because someone else doesnt show (He
will pretend to be a collector)
Aside from the delay, the trip begins normally taking off across the
beautiful lake Batiayn which stretches for 100km away from the vertiport.
The mist shrouded hills pass below and as the day continues everything seems
normal.  Once over the Forest of Innor the canopy is opened so that the
passengers can enjoy the open air and Mentorshine.
In a large clearing an Arranda's Dragon(See Creatures) will be seen running
down some victim, the hunter will whip out his gun and take a very difficult
shot at him.  This will naturally be a source of contention amongst the
travellers.

The route will carry the WE over ruins of ancient temples, towering trees
(300+ft), steaming geothermal fed lakes of reds and greens.  Valleys full of
sun flowers.  A weaker variety of Larry Niven's own.  The Yacht will put up
the shades.

After awhile Upper atmospheric EM communications will get rough due to
stronger the normal solar activity(by the Pilot's explanation) and continue
to degrade until blanking out altogether.  This does not effect line of
sight transmissions.

Some flying creatures will join up with the WE from time to time, some are
dangerous and some are curious and will land if encouraged.

SHIPBOARD DRAMA
The conflict between the Nemon agent "Taki" and the Union Agent Mr Foote.
A high stakes card game with the tourists and the businessman/woman

The Engineer passes out on deck. He was just sick but It'll make the events
to follow more confusing.

The Prince of Arturon shooting at things with his off world ElectroOptical,
laser sighted 10 KCr rifle.  Three times the Per cap GDP of his country

Arcturus and AhrAhdNhiCour, Arcturus growing very agitated sensitivity to
Gravitic Inf.

BOB flipping out, small things at first, then it gets dangerous.
He is programmed to aide and reduce stress for his owner, Strephon.  The
Gravitic and EM interference somehow causes BOB to lose his robotic mind.
He begins to take every criticism from Strephon as a deadly insult and will
try to keep individuals who he believes cause Strephon stress away from
Strephon, he will go so far as to use his Electric Stunner or worse.  He
will make a habit of following any PCs which he deems stressors to Strephon.

The businessman trying to close a megaCr deal

GRAV YACHT DOWN
Eventually the Yacht will suffer a total and catastrophic failure of both
the main and secondary gravitic field generators.  The Emergency Procedure
for Grav gen failure is Switch to secondary generator, Engage emergency
thrusters.
The pilot PC will have the option of putting it down in the trees or the
river.  Both will be difficult but the trees would probably be catastrophic.
The yacht may bottom out in the river depending on the piloting roll
possibly damaging the hull allowing water to enter.  Maybe damaging the Aux
propulsion system.  Any Pcs that did not brace may be injured or thrown
overboard.  If in a crash seat, no chance of this.

PLAN OF ACTION
First stabilize the yacht
Stop water from entering
Rescue anyone thrown overboard.
Shut down reactor due to ruptured heat exchanger.

The first option will be to load everyone in the air raft and get out of there.
The Air Raft will have sustained some minor yet repairable damage.

It will take a moment to get the computer maps up and operating but ordinary
charts are available These however lack detail and in particular do not show
a series of rapids on the river which culminates in a significant waterfall.
As these are rough aerial survey charts.

There is a checkpoint about three days away drifting on the river.
EM comms will be are under severe interference.

POUNCER ATTACK (See Creatures)
After the Pcs get settled a little bit, they will disturb a pouncer nest/den
somehow and the creatures will start to collect on the yacht in various
places.  9+1D6 pouncers will show up.  Once they outnumber the visible Pcs
they will attack always trying to get 3:1 odds, Ie 3 will attack one PC.

A Mist will surround them, it produces -1 to Observation  roll for every 1"
Some Pcs will think that they have drifted past the station.  While the mist
overlays the Brass Harpooners (See Creatures) will attack.

HARPOONER ATTACK
After a while 1d6 Brass Harpooners show up and try to grab any Pcs straying
near the edge of the deck.  Unless someone makes a difficult Observation
roll they will announce thier prescence with the shot of their harpoons
followed by the stun in the creatures next action..

The PCs should succesfully battle off the brass harpooners

They will not have passed the waystation and will pick it up quite easily.

WAYSTATION

The waystation will be deserted except for some spent shotgun shell casings
on the floor af the station.  The radio equipment will be nonfunctioning.
The door will have been smashed open and there is some blood around but no
bodies.  The dragons have been here. They carried off the four crewmembers. 
 
NATIVE CONTACT
After some aimless drifting, Pcs start to notice that someone is watching
them from shore and following the movement of the Yacht, eventually more and
more of these people join in following the yacht. Eventually a dragon much
bigger than the one the hunter shot can be seen stalking one of these
people. Then multiple dragons.  The dragon will only be seen if someone does
an infrared scan otherwise it just looks like a blur until it moves. i.e.
when it attacks.

The PCS may react to this however they choose.
In any event the dragons will massacre the locals without some serious
intervention


DRAGON ASSAULT
When the Yacht reaches a narrow portion of the river, 3+1D6 dragons will
attempt to jump onto it with a running start.  They will remain still and
invisible to normal sight until they make their pushed running attack.

They will start by trying to hit the occupants of the raft with mist clouds.
They will wait a few moments for this to take effect and then start trying
to jump onto the yacht. They will attack all Pcs insight.

The Pcs should remember that the Dragons are very vulnerable to sonic attacks.

However during the attack the Nemon agent will panic(if he's still alive)
and try to take off in the air raft One of the dragons will run in the back
door and attack him causing the air raft to crash into the trees/water/ or
back into the grav yacht effectively eliminating that avenue of escape.  




WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO NOW MAN!!??!
Eventually EM comms will return the Pcs will notice this when Pecorin's
Satphone rings unless someone is monitoring the comms of the yacht.  Contact
will be made and after a few moments the Yachts position will be fixed by
the Comm Station.  They will ask about the status of the passengers, ETC, it
is probably getting near dark by this time and the Pcs will be growing
nervous.  Luckily the river is wide at this point and getting wider. If the
siren has been left on to scare away the dragons it will attract every brass
harpooner for miles.  Over time the Pcs may notice that the yacht is moving
slightly faster and faster.

After a few moments the Controllers will request to speak to the Pilot alone
by some sort of secret pilot talk.  Ie "Check Chart X-ray"  They will ask
him questions about the water conditions.They will notify him that the yacht
is 10+1d6 km from a significant waterfall Eventually the sound of the
waterfall can be heard as a distant rumble.
The Comm Station is about 400 km away, The ELT(Emergency Locator
Transmitter)  signal will have preceded the phone ring by 1d6*5 min It will
take the rescue raft about 10 min to preflight, at about 800 kph cruise,
1100 kph max it will take about 30+1d6*5 minutes for the rescue raft to
locate the yacht. 



The waterfall is about a 75-100 ft fall.  The current by this point is about
18 km/hr
The Pcs can resolve this in a number of ways

-Try to anchor the yacht somehow
-Try to get the thrusters going to stop the yacht or ram it into the side
-Try to bottom out the yacht (not a good idea)  Water will be 1m + 1d6m deep
-Get in the escape capsules and either ride it out or jettison themselves

In any event the rescue raft will show up and will eventually locate the
PCs. They will be picked up and flown back to the comm station where
injuries will be treated and a NeoSol Federation officer will debief them
and try to determine if they have knowledge of the gravitic pulse. They will
travel by shuttle to Kyranda watching the news learning of the pulse and
hearing about the loss of the yacht.  Media will be waiting for them on
their arrival at Kyranda.
 
****************************BACKGROUND**************************************
***********
AURIGAE
Aurigae is the 2nd Planet orbiting the star Mentor a yellow-greenish star. 
It has a radius of approxiametely  8,120 km and a surface gravity of 1.2g
(11.8 m/s/s) The atmosphere is composed of 30% oxygen and 68% Nitrogen and
2% other gasses
There are three principle continents and many groups of large islands.
 
DEMOGRAPHICS
90% of Aurigae's 100 million people live on the prime continent Kyran.
It is somewhat balkanized into three major states and several smaller ones.

The Union of Senled is a somewhat militaristic oligarchy of about 40 million
currently at war with the Nemon Republic.

The Kingdom of Arturon is a so called benevolent monarchy of about 12
million with a royal family and everything. The Prince will be on the trip.

The Nemon Republic is a small state of about 6 million which claims
independence from the Union of Senled.

Kyran States is a somewhat loose confederation of several states which are
themselve primarily representative democracies (at least officially)  The
largest state Alameda contains the City of Kyranda and the Starport.  Also
the NeoSol Federation reps office to Aurigae is in the city of Kyranda.

ISLAND CONTINENT OF ARRANDA 
This large Island Continent is largely unexplored wilderness.  There are
several small towns in contact with the "outside world" but the total
populations of these towns is about 100,000 .  An Unknown number of
indigenous people live in the wilderness areas of the Continent.  They have
psychologically and physically adapted to living here over the last 2000
years since their ancestors arrived on a crippled colonization ship.  

The town of Aubayn is the largest of these towns with a population of about
2,000 
These mainly consist of traders, sceintists, vacationers, and tourists and
the infrastructure to support them. There is a Research Stations located on
the outskirts of the town due to the great volume of Archaeological and
Biological research oppurtunities available in the wilderness.

The town is located on Beautiful lake Bitaiyn whose blue/green waters strech
for 100 km beyond the town.
 
There are wilderness stations loacted at regular intervals all over the
continent.  These are maintained by various States and Organizations as well
as one or two by the NeoSol Federation.

NEOSOL FEDERATION
The NeoSol Federation is a slowly expanding tightly knit group of worlds
whose capital is on the planet Prima which orbits the Star NeoSol.  Its
expansion policy is mainly one of self determination for would be members.
It however does agressively collect about activities on these worlds and
provides it to forces, groups which are favorable to it. It has a
significant intelligence and special ops presence on the planet of Aurigae.
It is average TL 11 with much TL 12 eqipment coming on line.

AUBAYN VERTIPORT
Is a relatively small facility located on the lake about 1 km from "downtown".
About one intercontinental grav leaves there a week.  There are flights
availabe within the continent from station to station.  There is a dropoff
area out front as well as a ticket office.  The waiting area is spacious and
has a very high ceiling with trees growing under the sun roof.  There is a
gangplank that leads out to the waiting Grav Yacht.

GRAV YACHT WILDERNESS VOYAGER
The WV is a relatively old and well used TL 10-11 50-ton grav yacht.  It
will cruise at 300kph buttoned up and has an endurance of 36 hrs.  It
carries a crew of six which includes the pilot,copilot 2 engineers and 2
stewards. It has a generous cargo capacity as well as staterooms for
passengers.  There are 2 large staterooms and 8 small staterooms plus
quarters for the crew.  Every stateroom is equipped with an entertainment
center in addition there is a quarterdeck/promenade that is quite spacious
6m x 8m as well as a dining room.  There are telescopic and IR viewers for
passenger entertainment.  Parasailing is available as well as an air raft
for excursions to the ground. There is a hot tub and small workout room. 
 
****************************************************************************
***********
CREATURES

I will post all the creatures tomorrow as well as more details about the
characters.  Im up way past my bedtime as it is.

Tariq Rashid
TH-57 Bubba
"Blue Collar Aviator"


>"Each one of us, in his timidity, has a limit beyond which he is outraged.  It 
>is inevitable that he who by concentrated application has extended this limit 
>for himself, should arouse the resentment of those who have accepted 
>conventions which, since accepted by all, require no initiative of
application. 
> And this resentment generally takes the form of meaningless laughter or of 
>criticism, if not persecution.  But this apparent violation is preferable to 
>the monstrous habits condoned by etiquette and estheticism." - Man Ray, Paris 
>1934


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:25:15 -0800
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Armored Infantry (Combat Armor and Battle Dress)
Message-ID: <v01540a00ada79dc0659a@[137.229.100.66]>

So 22's bounce off of battle dress and combat armor... that's the whole
point. And, considering the low penetration of shipboard arms, CbtA and BD
make a WHOLE lot of sense for marines: Should you get involved in boarding
actions with intent to take it in useable condition, BDress rules out MOST
damage of note (So you get bruised up a bit...) while both BD and CbtA are
vacc capable (at least in all the standard imperial versions, and their
direct relatives). Swords, cutlasses, shotguns, and accell pistols don't
generally penetrate (in TNE, most small arms don't), and these weapons are
designed for close combat, low collateral damage.

As for whole units, BDress (if you use the note from TD, I think around
issue 16 or later) gives superior endurance, field comfort (by comparison
to other armors), NBC Protection, and weather invulnerability (barring
direct lightning strike). Combat Armor is just as protective, but a whole
lot less useful. Especiallyt since it should be obvious that BDress can
operate comfortably under water, on land, in vaccum, and often in vaccum...
Deep space can be troublesome, as can the skies, unless equipped for it
(thruster kits &/or Grav Belts).

Roles of the Armoured Infantryman:
1)      Drop Troop
2)      Bounce (ala Heinlein)... grav belts integral to the BDress can be
        powered from the suit, and thus have incredible mobility, and flying
        infantry can do some pretty impressive stuff.
3)      Security Troops: A few suits nearby and ready to back up MP's
        makes taking out MP's an expensive, hazardous, and easily visible
        task... not to mention the psychological effects of the massive
        firepower they can carry.
4)      Boarding Actions: anything heavy enough to hurt battledress effectively
        is heavy enough to damage a spacecraft's or naval craft's integrity.
5)      Fire Support for "Traditional" infantry.

Pros of Battledress
1)      near-misses are pretty much inconsequential
2)      Shrapnel is of minimal to no threat, source dependant
3)      Heavy weapons can be easily carried and used
4)      Environmental protection
5)      Easier to learn to operate than combat walkers
6)      Very mobile
7)      Increased trooper endurance (especially with the "autopilot" on).
8)      Computer aided targeting increases effectiveness of fire. (optional)
9)      Psychological effects pronounced.
10)     very flexible mission spread (light armour, infantry, and man-pack arty
        missions all within reach of average BD Squad).
11)     Sense of self-security increases chances of useful engagement by
        armoured trooper.

Cons of BDress
1)      Expensive
2)      Requires some training
3)      obvious if trooper seen
4)      enemy battlesuits can carry weapons effective vs them...(See below)
5)      requires power source (usually fuel source)
6)      Slow to don/doff

THe argument that a defense is useless since it can be defeated  readily by
equally equipped troops is pure ^%%*%&... The increased survivablity versus
arty rounds, near misses, and vehicular secondary weapons makes the "Suits"
much more survivable overall on the "Traveller modern". Also, even though a
squad can wipe out it's equal number in suits, the ballance to other types
of units, combined with the greater environmental versatility, makes them
quite usefull to the Imperial Marines. And Plasma weapons are incredibly
lethal to non-suited targets even with a near miss, while Suited targets
have survivabilty (as a casualty) on a near miss. Shoot a Squad of normal
infantry with a Plasma Gun, and they all get hurt, often badly (TNE has
poor rules by comparison to the rest of Trav on this, but even so); hit a
trooper in a battlesuit (combat or Battle Dress) and you drop him, and
annoy his squadmates.

Tac Missiles (especially in TNE) are not so hot against man-sized
targets... the targets are too small in relation to their mobility
(especially if in grav belts) from a simple targeting point of view... AND
they are designed for shooting large targets, like tanks. Also, most tac
missile systems are one-shots, regaurdless of reusability.

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 671
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 672

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Nanotech and another easy question...	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
  2) Re: Planetary Assaults	by Poseidon <Dave.Robertson@newcastle.ac.uk>
  3) "Light" machine guns	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  4) Re: [T669] Reality outstrips SF -- again	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  5) GRAV YACHT DOWN:CREATURES O' THE FOREST	by prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
  6) Dedicated TNE List	by David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:          Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:03:54 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Nanotech and another easy question...
Message-ID: <25EB35F0280@daisy.le.ac.uk>

Okay then, maybe my use of the term "nano-robots" was misplaced.  
However, it was more a case of we can construct *very* small 
machinery, which someone termed "nano-machinery" (or something like 
that).  Whether we have it 20 years or 80 years is not really the 
point - it was more a case of "look at technology now, and look at it 
in Traveller."  Regards to my comments upon Traveller as space-opera 
(which is something that I desperately do not want to see).  However, 
thanks for the reference /Backman, I shall endeavour to have a look 
at it.  Remember, for flame-reference, I'm only a poor archaeologist 
;-)

A quick question that someone should be able to answer, prompted by 
my current reading of the powered-armour theme... is there no 
possibility of upping the endurance of the suits past the 10 hours 
produced in the various sourcebooks for the RC?  I haven't looked at 
the numbers yet, so it's a blind question.  Surely with all that 
space kicking around in battle dress - the heavier versions at least 
- you should be able to put some extra batteries in!?  I saw someone 
us a micro-fusion power plant for Tl-16 "Nemesis" Battle Dress, but 
surely you could just up the endurance by the extra batteries?  

As a point of interest, someone mentioned the cost of the modern 
soldier.  Apparently (can't validate it for various reasons) the 
concept of an armoured trooper is not that far off in the future.  
Topics which came up in the same conversation included, essentially, 
arm-mounted mini-guns with gyro-stabilisation, IHADSS (Integrated 
Helmet and Designated Sight System methinks, but don't quote me on 
it) for targeting, and that sort of thing.  Powered armour may be a 
bit more in the future, but where does Traveller put it?  12-14?  
What's that in our terms... another 150-200 years?  Early decades of 
this century were the estimates I heard given the rapid increase in 
military technology... not saying that I'm an expert on it, though.

Again, thanks for listening to an arty-person rant about 'science.'

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Then we'll have what we've only dreamed about...
       a country of our oone." (scottish acent)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:28:49 +0100 (BST)
From: Poseidon <Dave.Robertson@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Planetary Assaults
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91-941213.960427152456.25115A-100000@aidan.ncl.ac.uk>

I would just like to throw in a thought that was raised last year on 
either X-Boat or TML: AFV readiness after touchdown. Someone(sorry, can't 
remember who :-) ) devised a series of rules for the breakdown of 
ground/air vehicles while in transit. Think about it, your rotary wing 
assault choppers are hardly going to be sitting in the cargo hold with 
rotors unfolded etc. Same goes for external sensors and antennae on AFVs. 
Just because you've got the stuff on to the planetary surface doesn't 
mean that you'll be able to use it straight away. Can anyone remember 
which post that was?

Just my 0.02Cr,

Dave.

PS. What about a deep meson site with targeting software keyed for big cute 
fluffy pink ears...sorry, couldn't resist it.


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 08:15:37 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: "Light" machine guns
Message-ID: <199604271515.IAA23870@mom.hooked.net>

Chris wrote thus:

>I think the first guy was talking about full auto fire from a .50 cal LMG.
>Not from a M16A2.

.50 cal LIGHT Machine Gun?!?  A US army M2HB weighs over 100lbs *without*
ammo!  It is used either on vehicles or from a tripod, which weighs a ton
all on it's own.

The standard LMG of the US Army is the M-60.  A 7.62mm work horse based on
the German MG-42/44 series.  We have just adopted a new LMG, the M-240, but
I'm not really aware of its characteristics yet.

The only way you could ever call a .50 light is if you were a body builder..

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#  "To treat your facts with imagination is one     #
#   thing.  But to imagine your facts is another."  #
#                                  -John Burroughs  #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 96 22:14:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T669] Reality outstrips SF -- again
Message-ID: <8BF7536.0100073B21.uuout@execnet.com>


T::>>  But I question whether we were anywhere near tech _10_ last month-
 ::>>  Massive Parallelism (TL8) isn't all that common, although
 ::>>  Nonvolatile Memory (TL9) is; neither is Vocal Input (TL9) [and
 ::>>  what is available isn't reliable].  Voice Transcription (TL10) is
 ::>>  barely out of the SF stage - not as advanced as Holocrystal
 ::>>  Storage (TL13) - and Advanced Synaptics (TL11) and
 ::>>  Semi-Intelligent Robots (TL12) are still in the SF stage.  So
 ::>>  what's our _real_ computer TL?  7 verging on 8 (Desktop Computers
 ::>>  -> Massive Parallelism)? Early 9 (Nonvolatile Memory)?  Prototype
 ::>>  13 (Holocrystal Storage)? All of the above?

T::> Hmmm.  It seems I have been mistaken about tech levels all this
 ::>time!  I thought the level indicated that at which the device or whatever
 ::>is invented/created/produced/whatever.  It appears from what you say
 ::>above that, instead, the tech level refers to the time in which the item
 ::>is common.
 ::> Correct?

 Well, I tend to interpret it as "commerical viability" (for
 non-military tech) rather than "commonly available".  CV has an
 implication that (a) the technology is reliable enough for general
 use, and (b) the social, economic, and technological
 infrastructure is capable of sustained production of the item.
 Modifications to the TL (such as "early", "prototype", etc.)
 indicate things like "one or two 'countries' can do this easily"
 or "it's really not yet CV, but we can see it Real Soon Now" or
 "we know we can do it economically, but it's not certain that the
 market will accept it".

 But no matter which of the three interpretations you put on it,
 the holocrystal storage (TL13) simply was not in the cards,
 according to the Standard Traveller Tech Progression. :)


T::>>  I think reality has gotten ahead of our Traveller writers...

T::> True.  That bothers me somewhat as well.  Hopefully, T4 will
 ::>rectify that...for a few years, anyway. :)

 Oh, it doesn't _bother_ me, any more than reading the wildly 'off'
 predictions for the '90s that were written in the SF and Space
 Opera of the '30s, '40s, and '50s.  I just get a bit of a giggle
 at how they underestimated our progress in some stuff, but
 overestimated it in others.

 A classic example of this is E.E.Smith's "Lensman" series - he
 mixes atomic-powered space ships having all the comforts of home
 with _mechanical_ calculating machines and databases that are
 essentially punched cards going through a sorter/collator.

 The only 'real' negative about this is that it dates the product.
 It doesn't make it any less enjoyable...

 And we _did_ survive ten years of Traveller with computers
 comparable to ENIAC, didn't we?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  SDRAWKCAB spelled backwards is backwards.


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 00:51:05 -0500
From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: GRAV YACHT DOWN:CREATURES O' THE FOREST
Message-ID: <199604280551.AAA23607@marlin.gulf.net>

Here is the Second Part of My Module: GRAV YACHT DOWN
Hope these creatures give you some ideas.  I know I borrowed from
several sources to create.  The third part will come tomorrow to
explain what is going on with the Yacht or maybe not, I'll just let
you'uns make up something for the cause of the crash, just like I did.
******************************************************************************
CREATURES

BRASS HARPOONERS
I got the Idea from StarFlight II, if you have the game check out the
picture in the manual

Brass Harpooners, so called because of their metallic looking plated shells
and thegas propelled darts that they fire from their shells, are relatively
common in the forestrivers of the wilderness continent.  They are water
dwelling creatures as they have no means to propel themselves on land.  As
such an average adult weighs 500-600 kg and is 3-4 meters long. They have
limited eyesight through a vision "grouping" on the front portion of the
creature.  They however have extremely sensitive hearing especially
water transmitted sounds.  They are attracted by vibrations and can attack
based onthis alone due to the array of sound sensors on their shells.  This
however only works well inside about 12 meters.

Methods of attack are the harpoons which are fired by a violent gas
ejection. They are about 12 cm long and travel about 100 m/s.  Impactdamage
is equivalent to a 22LR or so.  However the creature can generate an extremely
powerful electrical discharge which is transmitted through a tentacle which
trails the harpoon.  It will disable even a strong person.  Think 60KV Stun
gun.  The creature also attacks by using its mass to crush , knock over.  It
isnt very fast and can only swim about 10 km/hr in spurts of about 5
seconds. Normal is 3-4 KPH.  The creature normally will drift or bottom out near
the shore and wait for a forest animal to come to the river.  It then shoots
it, Stuns it and drags it into the water.  The tough plating will stop a
light pistol round (i.e. 380ACP) and will significantly slow down a 9mmP
class round.  GMs should play on the fact that firing a gun is an invitation
to accurate attack within 12 meters or so.

	The harpoons, their are 4-6 on an adult, take about a week to grow back
once fired. 

The Brass Harpooners are fiercely protective of thier young and will break
off an assualt to protect any young of their kind.

*************************ARRANDA'S DRAGON*********************************

This fearsome creature is known by many names, the name above is derived
from its primary continent of habitation.  This is what it is called by
those not native to the island continent.  The locals call them the
Invisible Ones or Mist Dragon depending on the translation.  This name is
derived from a peculiar ability to blend themselves in with the background
foliage.  This is similiar to a chameleons ability to do so but much more
evolved.  When standing still in the forest in low ambient light they will
be difficult at best to see, especially for someone not familiar with the
area.  To make matters worse they have the ability to spray an aerosol which
is a moderate depressant.  PCs so caught in the drifting cloud will have to
make a difficult test of constitution to keep their wits or initiative
depending on your game system.  It takes about 30 seconds for the depressant
to take effect and it lasts 20-40 seconds.  It basicly gives you a buzz.  In
fact the creature is more than capable of killing a human without this.This
bipedal  animal can
run in bursts up to 40 kph, weighs 250KG and has 4cm teeth and 8 cm slasher
claws.  Favorite attack on human sized prey is running over you.  You figure
out the math, 250kg at 40KPH with claws...well....ComEnvSuit wont do much
good even if you had one.

It can jump considerable distances with a running start.  About 4-5meteres
for every 10kph of run speed.

Although the creature has a tough hide, it is not bullet proof.  It is
possessed however of incredible toughness.  When in an attack frenzy it will
not be deterred by any wounds. No rules for panic for this creature.  You
have to kill it to stop it.  Treat the hide as mesh armor.  It is however
very vulnerable to loud high pitched sounds and will be driven away by such.
It also avoids bright light. However if wounded it will fly into a beserk so
that
it will ignore the light.  The PCs have no way of knowing the creatures
limitations unless they try things or one of the party is a specialist or a
local.


************************TREE POUNCER****************************************

These creature are small to medium sized quadrapeds that dwell primarily in
the canopies of the forest.  They are remarkable in that they have spearlike
beaks which they use to spear fish in their falling attacks from the
branches which overhang the water.  They weigh about 3-5 kg each and their
sharp beaks are about 12-15 cm long.  They have wide flat tails which they
use to control their descents to their targets sometimes as much as 100 ft
below. When they are fishing the splashes can be heard far along the river.
They cannot fly but are similiar to flying squirrels in that they can glide
great distances with great precision.  They use this ability to attack
treeborne and ground dwelling creatures as well.  They limit impact speeds
to about 20-30 kph so that they dont knock themselves silly.  This however
does occassionally occur. The creatures can climb rapidly up trees to regain
their attack posts.  They would never attack a larger creature except in
groups.  They communicate
with warbles and generally attack 3+1D6 per 100 kg of target mass.  Although
I assure you they dont weigh the prey.  I'll leave it up to your imagination
to determine the physical and psychological effect of small reddish
creatures flashing down from every direction trying to spear exposed
personnel with 5 inch blades.  They will not penetrate rigid armor but both
parties would probably be knocked silly.  The Pouncer would probably die.

The creature has a glide ratio of about 6:1  60 meteres on ground for every
10meteres above it.

In any event it'll give the PCs a chance to break out the shotguns in the
Wilderness Explorers survival locker.



Thank You much

Tariq Rashid
TH-57 Bubba
"Future Blue Collar Aviator"



>"Each one of us, in his timidity, has a limit beyond which he is outraged.  It 
>is inevitable that he who by concentrated application has extended this limit 
>for himself, should arouse the resentment of those who have accepted 
>conventions which, since accepted by all, require no initiative of
application. 
> And this resentment generally takes the form of meaningless laughter or of 
>criticism, if not persecution.  But this apparent violation is preferable to 
>the monstrous habits condoned by etiquette and estheticism." - Man Ray, Paris 
>1934


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 05:29:38 GMT
From: David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Dedicated TNE List
Message-ID: <31830153.1929130@post.demon.co.uk>

On Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:30:28 -0400 Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
wrote ( OK so I'm a slow reader ):

>Probably though, the TNE exiles will need a home.  Xboat's
>charter could be changed, but I would be inclined to leave Xboat alone, and
>let it die of attrition while creating a list for the TNE folks to continue
>to discuss TNE.  Maybe we could call it RCES or someother recognizable TNE
>based word that would not be misleading to the non-Traveller savvy public.

Not to prolong the debate but there is already a dedicated TNE list,
TNE-RCES. Judging by the volume on it ( a message a month!? ) it isn't
much known about. The address is tne-rces@tower.clark.net and is run
by "Mario M. Butter" <mbutter@tower.clark.net>.

Hope this is of interest.

David

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Burden, Birmingham, UK
Home: http://www.ftech.net/~innocom  Email: david@innocom.demon.co.uk 
Work: http://www.sts.co.uk           Email: david.burden@severntrent.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 672
***************************
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 673

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Bunnies as Player Characters
	by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
  2) M-240 SAW
	by David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
  3) 2300AD
	by Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
  4) Planetary Assualts
	by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  5) logistics
	by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  6) Re: M-240 SAW
	by "Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu>
  7) More in defence of battledress
	by Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
  8) [T670] Reality outstrips SF -- again
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  9) Re: Dedicated TNE List
	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
 10) Milieu 0
	by ereddoch@amaranth.com
 11) Power Armor
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
 12) TL-8 Ballistic Missile
	by Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:21:51 -0400
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Bunnies as Player Characters
Message-ID: <9604261321.AA51298@caw.intercon.com>


> You guys need to check out OCS' game Battlelords of the 23rd Century.  
> In their Galctic Handbook II, they introduce a race of 
> genenginered rabbits that are about 6' tall plus ears.  They are 
> bipedal, and are designed to act like rednecks from the Deep South 
> (U.S.).  

Even better, try the RPG Albedo, based on the _Erma Felna_ comic.  The 
Interstellar Lupine Republic is a racist splinter government, based on the 
premise that rabbits are the superior lifeform.  They are locked in a cold 
(but getting warmer) war with the Confederation government, a collection of 
several species.  All the species are genengineered from Terran animals, for 
reasons unknown to the characters.

This RPG actually has a very hard science background, and is worth purchasing 
just for that.  I even prefer the Albedo jump drive explanation over 
Traveller's...

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 96 09:40:43 EDT
From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: M-240 SAW
Message-ID: <960428134043_100605.3625_BHL50-1@CompuServe.COM>

>> We have just adopted a new LMG, the M-240, but I'm not really aware of its
characteristics yet. <<

5.56mm, based on the FN Minimi, either belt fed from drums or uses M16 magazines
without modification, adopted as the squad automatic weapon (SAW). Canada and
one or two other NATO nations use it as well. The M60 is retained at platoon
level, I believe.

                            David


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 16:02:44 +0100 (BST)
From: Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
To: Traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: 2300AD
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960428160147.9840A-100000@pasta>

Hi 

Anyone know if there is a list for 2300AD out there? If so how do you 
subscribe, and how much traffic is on it?

Mark
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
   "Courtesy is an obligation; friendship   | Mark Fletcher.
    a gift." Loosely quoted Vilani proverb. | (mf1@st-and.ac.uk)


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 96 17:35:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Planetary Assualts
Message-ID: <muk3mD1w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Well, the way I see it, you pretty much have to equip assualt forces
for *any* "reasonable" environment. So, that *alone* almost requires
*some* armor. After all, an environment suit with a hole in it is
pretty useless. 

As for landing assualt troops, I recommend a quick read of "Starship
Troopers" by Heinlein. His description of a drop sounds like it'd work
even in Traveller. 

Basicly, the troops in their powered armor are launched from the ships
in one man expendable capsules. They've got some ablative shielding for
reentry, and the shell is in layers. The layers are designed to "peeel
back and thus slow the capsule. Also, the peeled off layers give a lot
more targets for the folks on the ground to track. "ribbon" chutes are
used to make some major *sudden* slowdowns. The idea is that the chute
bleeds off a lot of velocity *fast, then gets dumped, leaving the
capsule falling ballisticly, just like all the shed pieces, dummy
capsule, orbital artillery rounds, etc. 

After the final layer of capsule is shed, the trooper has a final
parachute, as well as the armor's "jump jets". 

A typical "Mobile Infantry" (MI) raid has them getting dropped in
some "pattern" around a target. The MI spread havoc as the pattern
changes to a circle around the recovery point. By this time they've
hopefully cleared things enough for a shuttle to drop in an get them.

For an actual *invasion*, the shuttles would be landing supplies and
heavy equipment. 

But a few MI raids on industrial and political targets will tend to
impress upon the other side the idea that while *invading* them may not
be practical, it's still possible to cause them a world of hurt. 

As an example, while it may not be practical to invade the US, picture
a similar sort of raid on Detroit, or Washington DC. The "paratroppers
come in, lay waste to a bunch of important stuff, and get out. Sure, we
could survive that sort of thing for a *long* time. But it'd disrupt
the government and economy. 

Sort of like bee stings. While bee stings won't kill most people, we'll
go a fair amount out of our way to avoid getting stung!

Another nasty possiblity in areas where both sides are the same species
is having the folks come in in *stealthed* capsules and join up with
either the local "resistance" or with guerilla/"terrorist" groups on
"their" side. It isn't an invasion, but...

Oh yeah, the reason for using MI rather than orbital bombardment is
simple enough. A man on the scene is almost always going to be more
selective than even a "smart" weapon.

To go back to the example of raiding the US, sure, you can nail things
like dams from orbital. Even some industrial and military targets. But
in many cases, you'll want to go in and destory something that may be
surrounded by civilians that you'd rather *not* hurt (the old bit about
"we are attacking your *government*, not you").

In Traveller, some of these things are going to be harder to pull off.
But I rather suspect that the capability is *still* going to be useful.
So Battle Dress will exist. And it's more likely to be used by
interstellar powers than by planetary ones.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 96 18:16:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: logistics
Message-ID: <iqm3mD2w165w@krypton.rain.com>

A few thoughts on logistics.

First of all, given the availability of fusion power and the like,
water will *not* be a problem. *Especially* for folks in environment
suits. The human body *produces* more water than it consumes. In the
various suits, you can trap this and dump the resulting "waste" into a
reprocessor. Fusion distilling water out of various wastes isn't going
to be a problem. Not even psychologically. 

Food is *always* a problem, so that isn't going to change much.

Air can be recycled, and again, with fusion power, you can reprocess it
indefinitely. 

Ammo and fuel get interesting. *Most* "fuel" for non-spacraft is
effectively infinite. And the same goes for ammo for energy weapons.

Expect any planetary assualt forces to use projectile weapons *only*
when needed, because there's a limit to how much ammo they can bring
for them. But the lasers, PAWS, and meson weapons are limited only be
available power.

This also explains *why* anyone would bother with mass drivers and
gauss weapons. They use energy for propellant, and the projectiles can
easily be fabricated from materials on site. As an example, I can see
all the damaged/destroyed enemy equipment getting dragged to the ammo
fab module and getting turned into projectiles to be fired back at them!
Ditto for any of your *own* gear that is too damaged to be worth
fixing on site. 

And there's always the structural steel etc in the "unimportant"
buildings in the city you just fought thru.

With this in mind, I expect that the weapons mix for invasion forces
and for any merc or military unit expected to do much in the way of
"independent operation" to be a *lot* different than we've been seeing.

Any decent sized merc group will probably be able to maintain
everything except their ships *themselves*. And all they'll need in the
way of supplies (other than "raw materials") will be food and medical
supplies. 

The various interstellar powers will likely have groups with similar
capabilities for extended operations away from a base. They may even go
so far as to have mobile refit yards for ships at the fleet level. Such
a fleet could probably keep going as long as they had hydrogen and were
able to find asteroids or planets to "mine" for materials. 

Picture having a fleet like *that* operating behind enemy lines. The
one vulnerable spot would be the mobile refit yards and manufacturing
facilities. And since they'd *have* to be capable of rebuilding their
own gear, they could duplicate *that* one their own, removing the
"single point" failure.

Now picture the Virus getting hold of one of these....


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 96 14:51:23 EDT
From: "Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: M-240 SAW
Message-ID: <9604281851.AA18004@cabell.vcu.edu>

> 
> >> We have just adopted a new LMG, the M-240, but I'm not really aware of its
> characteristics yet. <<
> 
> 5.56mm, based on the FN Minimi, either belt fed from drums or uses M16 magazines
> without modification, adopted as the squad automatic weapon (SAW). Canada and
> one or two other NATO nations use it as well. The M60 is retained at platoon
> level, I believe.
> 
>                             David
> 
> 

No folks, the M-240 is replacing the M-60 as the PLT level
GPMG....It is an 'americanized' FN MAG MG.

                            Jason

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 16:35:29 -0300
From: Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: More in defence of battledress
Message-ID: <199604281935.QAA09980@catbert.>


"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote
>
>An experiment for those interested.  Build a squad of TL14 Troopers.  Give
>them whatever weapons you feel necessary.  Now, total up the cost.  Use the
>same amount to equip troops with Combat Enviroment Suits, Gauss Rifles, and
>(most importantly) HEAP RAM Grenades.  Let the Troopers go first, odds are a
>lot of smoking bodies.  Unfortunatly, there are a lot of unpowered folks
>left, and they all let fly with the HEAP rounds.
>

Two points on this experiment:

1. What value did you place on the troopers themselves?  If you start the
cost of each soldier at say, 3 years pay plus training alowance, the ratios
for battledress improve somewhat.

2. What value did you place on mobility and tactical employment?  With a
unit of battledress I have a lot more options then you do with your
near-naked groundpounders.  Experimients based on lining the participents up
and letting fly do not do much to refelect actual combat potential (if they
did, the longbow yould have been the dominent infantry weapon until
somewhere in the 1840's).  Don't forget morale as well. Large scale
battledress formations well handled are likely to be very scarry things. 

>Powered Armor troops have a limited use.  In the Imperium, Marines and Jump
>Troops serve to open planet-heads, seize starports, and neutralize, or at
>least confuse, defending commands.
>

I would suggest that battledress a bloody useful pretty much all of the
time, and that (Commons Committees to the contrary) equipment cost is a
minor part of the equation in determining the appropriate TOE.



anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman) wrote

{a lot of thigs I agree with, so I will not quote extensively, just a couple
of quibles on the con side)

>Cons of BDress
>1)      Expensive

undeniable, but always add cost of base troper

>2)      Requires some training

so does getting someone to the point where he is willing to stick his head
out of his hole to try to kill a battledress trooper with a single shot law.

>3)      obvious if trooper seen

I would say somewhat less conceilable that naked trooper, but it should
require less cover to conceal than, say, a tank; and I understand that well
handled tanks can come oout of nowhere in a quire disquiting style.  Should
be able to crawl into a hole only slightly larger than required for regular
troops -- and should be able to dig said hole far faster.

>4)      enemy battlesuits can carry weapons effective vs them...(See below)

Much like the modern point that the best anti-tank weapons are, in fact, tanks.

Again, my point is that non-battledress infantry are without merit in all
situations, or that battledress troops cannot be defeated by same, but that
offensive firepower per equipment credit  is not the only measure for
evaluating a TOE.

If someone wants to try reffing a game using, say, striker II style rules, I
would be happy to play the battledress side in some tactical experiments.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 96 19:00:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: [T670] Reality outstrips SF -- again
Message-ID: <8BF8474.0100073C43.uuout@execnet.com>


T::>--
 ::> barely out of the SF stage - not as advanced as Holocrystal
 ::> Storage (TL13) -
 ::>--
 ::> FYI, Holographic data-crystal technology is about 4 years away..... DVD
 ::>is just the mid-step. (semi) operational prototypes(admittidley, the
 ::>reader/writer is the size of a car..) already exist.

 I _said_ this in the original article I posted - although the
 impression I got was not "the size of a car" - more along the
 lines of "the size of a bread box".  And four years isn't very
 long - it took longer than that to go from 143K 5.25in. floppies
 to 2.88M 3.5in. floppies...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  OLXWin 1.00b  An elephant is a mouse with an IBM operating system

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 17:49:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Dedicated TNE List
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.92.960428174853.8328B-100000@kelly.teleport.com>

--
Not to prolong the debate but there is already a dedicated TNE list,
TNE-RCES. Judging by the volume on it ( a message a month!? ) it isn't
much known about. The address is tne-rces@tower.clark.net and is run
by "Mario M. Butter" <mbutter@tower.clark.net>.

Hope this is of interest.

David
--
 You do relize, that traveller@mpgn.com is currentley a dedicated TNE
list, don't you? Seems that making _another_ one would be more needless
fractionilizing.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 00:10:51 -0600
From: ereddoch@amaranth.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Milieu 0
Message-ID: <199604290517.AAA20776@www.pensacola.com>


On 04/20/96 at 09:30 PM,  Joe Walsh said:

>Hoo boy!  Douglas Berry's description, below, did more to make me want 
>the T4 system than any of the other things I've read about it.  I must 
>admit I didn't give much thought to the implicaions of the Milieu 0 
>setting.  Thankfully, Mr. Berry did! :)

Absolutely!  I'm a little late reading the list, but I found Douglas
Berry's essay *very* interesting.

I've been looking forward to T4 and especially Milieu 0 since I read
MM's posts.  A period of open borders, exploration, and discovery is
just the kind of environment I like to run games in.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com
-----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 22:30:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Power Armor
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9604282230.A25166-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>


At 04:58 PM 4/26/96 -0400, David C. Broussard wrote:  

>To this end I believe the cost effectiveness issue will preclude 
>equiping lots of troopers with Power Armour.  The only real use Power 
>Armour gets is for things like Orbital Assaults, or when going up 
>against vastly inferior forces.  Even so a Power Trooper is just like a 
>small tank, and in some cases more expensive. 
		               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	I don't remember this being true in previous incarnations of 
Traveller, and I don't know if it'll be true in the next, but in TNE, I 
recently noticed that when in BD your Environment Suit skill replaces 
your controlling asset (str, agl, etc.) when attempting physical tasks.  
That means that your average marine will have to have _6_ skill levels in 
Env Suit before he becomes as effective in BD as out.  Even if you don't 
go that far, a skill level of 4 seems the bare minimum.  A marine with 
gun cbt of 2 (what basic gives him) and a Env Suit skill of 4 would only 
have an asset of 6!  He's not going to hit much.
	The bottom line is that using this rule, it takes several terms 
before a marine is skilled enough in gun cbt, parachute, & env suit to be 
able to do the classic meteoric assault.  So these troops must be made up 
almost exclusively of NCOs, making them very expensive troops indeed.
	What was that line from "Starship Troopers?"  Something about a 
soldier having to be as skilled as a master in any other trade?  It's 
certainly true in the case of power armor troops jumping from orbit, who 
were, after all, inspired by Heinlein in the first place.

--Muir

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:34:29 +1000
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: TL-8 Ballistic Missile
Message-ID: <293410260496*/G=Michael/S=Barry/O=FINANCE/PRMD=AUSGOVFINANCE/ADMD=TELEMEMO/C=AU/@MHS>

Thanks for the design for the low tech ballistic missile! It should come in very
handy. 

Reminds me of something I saw during the Gulf War...a news team was interviewing
a French artillery colonel who happened to be an expert on the Scud missile. 
When asked about the accuracy of the Scud, he replied in magnificent Gallic 
understatement: 

"The Scud missile has a range of seven hundred kilometres, but in no particular 
direction". 

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 673
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Status: U

			    TRAVELLER Digest 674

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 673
	by StaintonC@aol.com
  2) Opposed Landings in Traveller
	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
  3) Re: 2300AD
	by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
  4) LMGs
	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
  5) Re: Logistics
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  6) The list
	by 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
  7) Planetary Assaults
	by David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
  8) Re: Planetary Assaults, and Re: Light Machineguns
	by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
  9) Various things...
	by "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:07:14 -0400
From: StaintonC@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 673
Message-ID: <960429120713_283229699@emout13.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-29 06:42:18 EDT, you write:

>>> We have just adopted a new LMG, the M-240, but I'm not really aware of
its
>characteristics yet. <<
>
>5.56mm, based on the FN Minimi, either belt fed from drums or uses M16
>magazines
>without modification, adopted as the squad automatic weapon (SAW). Canada
and
>one or two other NATO nations use it as well. The M60 is retained at platoon
>level, I believe.
>
>                            David

Actually, it's the M-249 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon), built to bridge the
gap between the M-16 Assault Rifle and the M-60 GPMG.  The Fire Team member
in the position of automatic rifleman generally carries it.  The M-60 is
retained at platoon AND squad level, as well, depending on the specific
platoons.

                           Chris, former US Army 82nd Airborne Division

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:43:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Opposed Landings in Traveller
Message-ID: <199604291643.LAA15791@ConnectI.com>

Just another quick thought.  Invasion onto a planet on which you have a
strong well equiped determined force becomes much easier if you don't care
about the status of the world afterwords.  In other words you can bomb them
into the stone age.  Another possibility that I was considering was the
concept of planet hopping like the U.S. did in the Pacific Theatre in WWII.
Only land on the worlds you HAVE to control.  Blockade the others (wipe out
local Navy, then bomb startports to smithereens, leave a smaller holding
force behind).  Then you will be free to concentrate the majority of your
forces on the critical worlds.  

This works esp well on planets that cannot support themselves without
external aid.  A few well placed ortillery barrages to take out the
Atmosphere Processors etc. can hurry along the surrender.

Lastly I have gotten the impression that Imperial Citizens for the most part
cared very little about who ruled them as it seemed to effect them very
little.  This only changed with the onset of the "Black War".  So
generations had lived under the pretense that warfare was much like the 18th
century limited between military forces only, minimal collateral damage etc.
They were concerned about the outcome of a planetary assault but felt that
they would not feel the effects too much.  The thought never really crossed
their minds to go out at toss Molotov Cocktails on Grav Tanks or Battle
Dress Troopers.

My 2Cr worth
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:35:01 -0400
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk
Subject: Re: 2300AD
Message-ID: <9604291435.AA01139@caw.intercon.com>

Mark Fletcher asked:

> Anyone know if there is a list for 2300AD out there? If so how do 
> you subscribe, and how much traffic is on it? 

Yes, there is.  It has fairly light traffic. (I once got TEN whole messages in 
one day!)

Send a message with "SUBSCRIBE" in the comments field to: 
ad2300-request@mars.galstar.com


Also, there is a 2300 web page:
http://www.ktb.net/~jayadan/2300ad.htm

The web page has a link to the mailing list, if I recall.

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 13:45:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: LMGs
Message-ID: <199604291845.NAA29269@ConnectI.com>

The M-240 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) is a 5.56N weapon with a 200rnd
casete magazine (actaully a belt in a casette but who quibling).  It has a
longer and heavier barrel than the M-16, and has a higher muzzle velocity
and muzzle energy than the M-16.  All told it weighs in at 10Kg I think (I
remeber reading that it weighs the same w/ 200rnds of ammo as a M-60 weighs
empty).

As for fire efficency it is not a s good as an M-60 but the current trend in
Military Weapons if for lighter stuff.  It will still wound or kill an
opponent at just shorter ranges thatn the M-60, but is much lighter.  BTW: I
don' think you can swap barrels on it like you could on the 60, thus further
reducing the weight carried into battle.

As for powered armor in the near furture, Many of the light electronic
features of BD are coming soon: Night Vision, Computer assisted Aiming,
Heads-Up Displays, individual radio commo, etc.  If you look at the weight
of these things, the are negligible compared to weapons and armor.  Armor
especially if you want protection from small arms completely.  The only
solution seems to be to power the armor, but power density by current
standards is fairly low, and trying to build artiulating powered walkers
would be a daunting task, esp as it would require gyro stabilization to
stand and walk.  It would be slow large, and unable to go prone or really
dodge.  It would make more sense to make small 1 person vehicles (wheeled,
ACV, etc).  Then we are talking about a vehicle again.

Powered armour walks the fine line (pun intended) between a suit of armour
and a vehicle.  Battle Dress only makes sense in a world like Traveller with
TL-12+.  The servos and motors needed to run somehting like that then to
allow full range of motion like BD is supposed to do are a LONG ways off.  

BD heightens individual survivability but it also reduces the number of
members like it.  In the Civil War, Platoons were larger than they are
today.  The typical combat unit was the Regiment about 500+ soldiers.  In
WWI and WWII it became the company about 200 soldiers.  In Viet Nam the unit
was the Platoon of less than 50 soldiers.  The reson for this is that in US
military doctrine, we have fewer and fewer soldiers to use, therefore we
equip them much better, then give them more autonomy to make decisions.  It
worked in Desert Storm, but how well in Viet Nam.  Imgaine a whole planet
like Viet Nam with staunch defenders that are using weapons inferior but in
settings where they can be used to great advantage.  REmember the U.S.
started out that war using the M-14 and issuing flack jackets to almost
every troop.  By then end it was the M-16 and no body armor.  Tactics have
to change with the terrain and enemy.  

In the Traveller Universe I always used the Squad as the seminal unit for
combat ops.  10 troopers with all integral support weapons needed.  This
might mean for a TL-14/15 group.  BD for all troops (CBT armour if not a BD
unit).  Then standard weapons for 6, Support weapons for 2, and Specialty
weapns for 2.  An example might be 6 in CBT armour, with 4 Gauss Rifles and
2 Laser Rifles.  2 Plasma Rifles or RAM GL or Hvy Laser Autoweapon.  Finally
2 dedicated to Anti Vehicle/Anti Air with either Tac Missles or a Rapid
Pulse Small PD Plasma Weapon.  Each trooper would carry small explosives
like Hand Grenades, etc.  The end result is a group of troopers that can
deal intense destruction and fight to a limited extent against any oposition.

The main mistake many GMs make is to disregard the fact that most units are
vary varried in their composition to deal with multiple threats.  Many Gms
fall into the D&D( thats Dangerous Dimensions) mold of eqioping all villians
with the same weapons.  The average trooper might be, but only about 50-60%
of troopers are average in modern military (I mean specifically combat units
not incuding the fact that all support units have pretty much only M-16s for
use).  The other mistake is to forget that almost 50% of a modern military
army is support troops. 

Oh well I rambled again.  I hope that this is realtively coherent.

DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:13:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Logistics
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9604291148.A11520-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>



On Mon, 29 Apr 1996  Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:

> A few thoughts on logistics.
<snip>
> Ammo and fuel get interesting. *Most* "fuel" for non-spacraft is
> effectively infinite. And the same goes for ammo for energy weapons.
> 
> Expect any planetary assualt forces to use projectile weapons *only*
> when needed, because there's a limit to how much ammo they can bring
> for them. But the lasers, PAWS, and meson weapons are limited only be
> available power.

	Good point.  Anyone design tanks with these weapons?
 
> Any decent sized merc group will probably be able to maintain
> everything except their ships *themselves*. And all they'll need in the
> way of supplies (other than "raw materials") will be food and medical
> supplies. 
> 
> The various interstellar powers will likely have groups with similar
> capabilities for extended operations away from a base. They may even go
> so far as to have mobile refit yards for ships at the fleet level. Such
> a fleet could probably keep going as long as they had hydrogen and were
> able to find asteroids or planets to "mine" for materials. 

	Keep in mind though that having all those support units turning 
asteroids into BSD and old vehicles into bullets are going to require a 
lot of personnel and equipment of their own, making them rather expensive 
and difficult to move around.  The transport and whatnot required for all 
these non-combatants is likely to be a real impediment to independent 
operation of its own.
	I could see equiping a unit with energy weapons and rigging all 
their vehicles to run on hydrogen to minimize logistics burdens, and I 
think that this is a good idea that I might play around with.  
	But equipping units with their own raw materials processing and
manufacturing capability is less of a good idea.  Credit for credit, man
for man, a "traditional" unit will be able to put more firepower onto the
battlefield.  You make a good point that the ability to "live of the land"
would be very useful and I agree, I just think less costly ways might be
found of doing that.  You already mentioned using energy weapons and so
on.  A unit could also use weapons that take relatively "low tech"
ammunition so that it could resupply from captured local industry.  If
your opponent is practicing a "scorched earth" strategy or you are a
purely raiding force that won't be able to use local sources of supply,
something like what you describe makes sense. 

> Picture having a fleet like *that* operating behind enemy lines. The
> one vulnerable spot would be the mobile refit yards and manufacturing
> facilities. And since they'd *have* to be capable of rebuilding their
> own gear, they could duplicate *that* one their own, removing the
> "single point" failure.

	I just don't think that building hi-tech goods on the fly is that 
easy.  Think about it this way:  no matter how good easily reproducable 
and mobile ship yards are, immobile, non-reproducable ones are likely to 
be better simply because they're more specialized and devote all their 
resources to building ships rather than moving around, reproducing 
theselves, etc.  So there will still be a trade-off for equiping your 
units with all this mobile manufacturing rather than relying on fixed 
manufacturing and using the savings for combat assets.
	In the end, I think we can both agree that going with lower-tech 
but rugged and easily maintained gear will always be a viable strategy 
for units operating a long way from their sources of supply.

--Muir

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:36:12 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: The list
Message-ID: <199604291936.PAA16449@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

   Why are we continuing to have this discussion about splitting the list? I
beleive Rob Miracle, who runs this thing, made it clear that this list was
not changing. This is a moot point. CT, MT, TNE and T4 are ALL Traveller. If
we can't get along, maybe we don't derserve any mailing list at all.
                                                 Allen


------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 96 15:21:32 EDT
From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Planetary Assaults
Message-ID: <960429192132_100605.3625_BHL179-5@CompuServe.COM>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> In Traveller, some of these things are going to be harder to pull off.
But I rather suspect that the capability is *still* going to be useful.
So Battle Dress will exist. And it's more likely to be used by
interstellar powers than by planetary ones. <<

I think part of the difference between Traveller and the scenario postulated by
Heinlein is that the MI didn't experience particularly heavy orbital defences
and once down were effectively operating in open ground except when they went
into the bug tunnels, even then they could use the surface for mobility and pick
their point of entry into the tunnels; whereas in Traveller the major targets
for the Solomani or the Imperial factions are high population worlds, with
potentially continent size cities.

Planetary assaults against this kind of target are going to see the warships go
in first to take out the orbital defenses and the deep meson sites, then you
have to carve your way through the COACC defenses, possibly by inserting your
own air-superiority craft (AKA Intrepids), only then do you really have a safe
window for a drop troop assault, though you could risk it in the first wave if
you don't mind the odd division or brigade lost when a terajoule range meson
site guts their assault carrier. The drop troops are pretty much on their own
until COACC has been disposed of, in that time they have to size a bridgehead/
landing site, and the only open space big enough may well be the most heavily
defended - the starport - so the drop troops have to be able to do the most
damage possible in a small package, and that means powered armour and the best
weapons money can buy. 

Once you have your bridgehead secured you can start landing leg infantry into
it, but then you face expanding outwards, and that battle is going to be
Stalingrad on a planetary scale. Intrepids and Imperial Marine APCs may be
superb cavalry platforms in open country, but they aren't much use for
room-to-room fighting in the interiors of an arcology. The side that wins in the
end will be the one that can generate the greatest density of firepower at the
point of contact, and a platoon of Intrepids is no use whatsoever if they
physically can't get through to the interior, so again powered armour may be the
weapon of choice, though likely with lots of cheap combat armoured types to
screen for it. In the end terrain determines tactics, and tactics determines the
technology you deploy.

                                David 


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:50:05 -0700
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: gherbert@crl.com
Subject: Re: Planetary Assaults, and Re: Light Machineguns
Message-ID: <199604300050.AA00255@mail.crl.com>

>From: Poseidon <Dave.Robertson@newcastle.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Planetary Assaults
>
>I would just like to throw in a thought that was raised last year on 
>either X-Boat or TML: AFV readiness after touchdown. Someone(sorry, can't 
>remember who :-) ) devised a series of rules for the breakdown of 
>ground/air vehicles while in transit. Think about it, your rotary wing 
>assault choppers are hardly going to be sitting in the cargo hold with 
>rotors unfolded etc. Same goes for external sensors and antennae on AFVs. 
>Just because you've got the stuff on to the planetary surface doesn't 
>mean that you'll be able to use it straight away. Can anyone remember 
>which post that was?
>Just my 0.02Cr,

Well, um, any attacker at TL10+ isn't going to have assault choppers,
you do better with grav vehicles.  If your vehicles are not designed
to be rapidly brought into use in an assault landing, then you
need to use larger weapons on your design teams ;-)

Having spent a lot of time and effort on my orbital assault capability
for a recent strategic game, I can say it's not easy.  But your hardware
should be ready on landing.  I even designed up expendable drop landers
for putting heavy equipment down in large quantities and fast...

And a lot of people just design a tank or two and leave things at that.
Look hard at something like Tom Clancy's "Armored Cav" or even Striker II;
there are lots of different vehicles there, each has a reason.  You should
have infantry, tanks, artillery, medical, supplies, repair vehicles,
probably a portable lab for expeditions offplanet, command vehicles,
staff vehicles, ...

>PS. What about a deep meson site with targeting software keyed for big cute 
>fluffy pink ears...sorry, couldn't resist it.

Orbital Bunny Laser Immolation Termination Eradication /
	Rabbit Active Thermalization Equipment

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: "Light" machine guns
>
>Chris wrote thus:
>
>>I think the first guy was talking about full auto fire from a .50 cal LMG.
>>Not from a M16A2.
>
>.50 cal LIGHT Machine Gun?!?  A US army M2HB weighs over 100lbs *without*
>ammo!  It is used either on vehicles or from a tripod, which weighs a ton
>all on it's own.

82 lbs without ammo.  60 lb tripod, I think.  The M2HB basic mass I am
sure of.  They're not that much of a brick, I can carry one around
easily enough (much to the dismay of the local army national guard).

>The standard LMG of the US Army is the M-60.  A 7.62mm work horse based on
>the German MG-42/44 series.  We have just adopted a new LMG, the M-240, but
>I'm not really aware of its characteristics yet.

M-249 is the new 5.56mm SAW/LMG.  M-240 is the designation for the FN-MAG
7.62 machinegun for tank use.  The M-249 isn't very new.

>The only way you could ever call a .50 light is if you were a body builder..

I am certainly not *that* buff.  The M-2 just isn't that heavy...

-george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

Ps- anyone else out there that Challenge had accepted things for, but not
printed as of when GDW shut down?


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 12:58:00 EST
From: "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
To: "'TML'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Various things...
Message-ID: <31869EC9@msmailv0.telecom.com.au>


"Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com> writes:

Subject: Re: Bunnies as Player Characters

> You guys need to check out OCS' game Battlelords of the 23rd Century.
> In their Galctic Handbook II, they introduce a race of
> genenginered rabbits that are about 6' tall plus ears.  They are
> bipedal, and are designed to act like rednecks from the Deep South
> (U.S.).

Even better, try the RPG Albedo, based on the _Erma Felna_ comic.  The
Interstellar Lupine Republic is a racist splinter government, based on the
premise that rabbits are the superior lifeform.  They are locked in a cold
(but getting warmer) war with the Confederation government, a collection of
several species.  All the species are genengineered from Terran animals, for 

reasons unknown to the characters.

This RPG actually has a very hard science background, and is worth 
purchasing
just for that.  I even prefer the Albedo jump drive explanation over
Traveller's...
 ------------------------------

Yes, buy it if you can find a copy!
The guy who wrote it is a member of my games club...

Hmmm Bunnies... there is a character from our Dune freeform that's 
appropriate here,
I find a copy. ;)

 ------------------------------
Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk> writes:

Anyone know if there is a list for 2300AD out there? If so how do you
subscribe, and how much traffic is on it?
 ------------------------------

Yep, it's got a fair bit of traffic on it.

List addresses:
  Post messsages to        -> ad2300@mars.galstar.com
  Automatic administration -> ad2300-request@mars.galstar.com
  List owner (a person)    -> ad2300-owner@mars.galstar.com

Send the following in the body of a message to the list admin:

SUBscribe

  -- subscribe to the mailing list.

 ------------------------------

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

Subject: logistics

 ------------------------------
First of all, given the availability of fusion power and the like,
water will *not* be a problem. *Especially* for folks in environment
suits. The human body *produces* more water than it consumes. In the
various suits, you can trap this and dump the resulting "waste" into a
reprocessor. Fusion distilling water out of various wastes isn't going
to be a problem. Not even psychologically.

Food is *always* a problem, so that isn't going to change much.

Air can be recycled, and again, with fusion power, you can reprocess it
indefinitely.

Ammo and fuel get interesting. *Most* "fuel" for non-spacraft is
effectively infinite. And the same goes for ammo for energy weapons.

Expect any planetary assualt forces to use projectile weapons *only*
when needed, because there's a limit to how much ammo they can bring
for them. But the lasers, PAWS, and meson weapons are limited only be
available power.
 ----------------------------

Yes, The logistics load increases to about TL9 and then starts to decrease.

 ----------------------------
This also explains *why* anyone would bother with mass drivers and
gauss weapons. They use energy for propellant, and the projectiles can
easily be fabricated from materials on site. As an example, I can see
all the damaged/destroyed enemy equipment getting dragged to the ammo
fab module and getting turned into projectiles to be fired back at them!
Ditto for any of your *own* gear that is too damaged to be worth
fixing on site.
 -------------------------------

No, No, NOOOO

Contrary to popular belief Gauss and MD rounds would be complex things.
Look at the description of the rounds in FF&S.

 ------------------------------

"Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu> writes:

Subject: Re: M-240 SAW

 -----------------------------
>
> >> We have just adopted a new LMG, the M-240, but I'm not really aware of 
its
> characteristics yet. <<
>
> 5.56mm, based on the FN Minimi, either belt fed from drums or uses M16 
magazines
> without modification, adopted as the squad automatic weapon (SAW). Canada 
and
> one or two other NATO nations use it as well. The M60 is retained at 
platoon
> level, I believe.
>
>                             David
 ----------------------------

Yes.

 ----------------------------
No folks, the M-240 is replacing the M-60 as the PLT level
GPMG....It is an 'americanized' FN MAG MG.

                            Jason
 ---------------------------

No.
Why would they replace the M60 (which they've only just got right really ;) 
with a copy of a 1950's european gun?

 ------------------------------

Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com> writes:

Subject: More in defence of battledress

 ------------------------------
"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote
>
>An experiment for those interested.  Build a squad of TL14 Troopers.  Give
>them whatever weapons you feel necessary.  Now, total up the cost.  Use the
>same amount to equip troops with Combat Enviroment Suits, Gauss Rifles, and
>(most importantly) HEAP RAM Grenades.  Let the Troopers go first, odds are 
a
>lot of smoking bodies.  Unfortunatly, there are a lot of unpowered folks
>left, and they all let fly with the HEAP rounds.
>

Two points on this experiment:

1. What value did you place on the troopers themselves?  If you start the
cost of each soldier at say, 3 years pay plus training alowance, the ratios
for battledress improve somewhat.
 -----------------------------

A BD trooper would still be at least twice as expensive...

 -----------------------------
2. What value did you place on mobility and tactical employment?  With a
unit of battledress I have a lot more options then you do with your
near-naked groundpounders.  Experimients based on lining the participents up
and letting fly do not do much to refelect actual combat potential (if they
did, the longbow yould have been the dominent infantry weapon until
somewhere in the 1840's).  Don't forget morale as well. Large scale
battledress formations well handled are likely to be very scarry things.
 ----------------------------

Longbows required too much training!

BD troopers can carry weapons and sensors that will significantly outrange 
those of the groundpounders.
Also they can use their mobility to concentrate and outmaneuver their enemy.
Much of the time the groundpounders would get hit before they saw the BD 
coming!

 ----------------------------
>Powered Armor troops have a limited use.  In the Imperium, Marines and Jump
>Troops serve to open planet-heads, seize starports, and neutralize, or at
>least confuse, defending commands.
>

I would suggest that battledress a bloody useful pretty much all of the
time, and that (Commons Committees to the contrary) equipment cost is a
minor part of the equation in determining the appropriate TOE.
 -----------------------------

Well, when the cost difference is 10-100 times...

 -----------------------------
anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman) wrote

{a lot of thigs I agree with, so I will not quote extensively, just a couple
of quibles on the con side)

>Cons of BDress
>1)      Expensive

undeniable, but always add cost of base troper
 ------------------------------

Cost effectiveness is the only criterion, based on the particular mission 
being fulfilled.
(BD troops are _definitely_ better for the invading force.)

 ------------------------------
>3)      obvious if trooper seen

I would say somewhat less conceilable that naked trooper, but it should
require less cover to conceal than, say, a tank; and I understand that well
handled tanks can come oout of nowhere in a quire disquiting style.  Should
be able to crawl into a hole only slightly larger than required for regular
troops -- and should be able to dig said hole far faster.
 ----------------------------

Also actually _less_ likely to be spotted due to better sensors capable of 
being carried and the use of chameleon surfaces. The groundpounder is going 
to get spotted first...
Also the BD can do things like sit on the bottom of waterways or completely 
bury themselves.

 ----------------------------
>4)      enemy battlesuits can carry weapons effective vs them...(See below)

Much like the modern point that the best anti-tank weapons are, in fact, 
tanks.

Again, my point is that non-battledress infantry are without merit in all
situations, or that battledress troops cannot be defeated by same, but that
offensive firepower per equipment credit  is not the only measure for
evaluating a TOE.

If someone wants to try reffing a game using, say, striker II style rules, I
would be happy to play the battledress side in some tactical experiments.
 ------------------------------

Yep, and I'll take the other side as long as I can get vehicle support. ;)
BD troopers are the only ones at high tech that can carry AT weapons that 
are effective and remain mobile without vehicular support.

Django.

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 674
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 675

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) sgenbin.zip
	by "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
  2) sgenbin.zip
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  3) Machine Guns
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  4) need comments on this "what is traveller?" article
	by Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:25:49 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: sgenbin.zip
Message-ID: <199604301923.MAA24492@goodguy.goodnet.com>

Hey,

I ran across what looks like an interesting set of files on 1 of the 
ftp sites the other day, and frankly, I just don't understand what 
they do.

Is anybody familiar with the sgenbin software?  What does it do?  
There are no docs bundled with them, so I was wondering if anybody 
knows where I can get documentation.  Is it on an old TML mailing???

Let me know.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:20:57 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: sgenbin.zip
Message-ID: <960430180522_481653760@emout18.mail.aol.com>

Hey,

I ran across what looks like an interesting set of files on 1 of the 
ftp sites the other day, and frankly, I just don't understand what 
they do.

Is anybody familiar with the sgenbin software?  What does it do?  
There are no docs bundled with them, so I was wondering if anybody 
knows where I can get documentation.  Is it on an old TML mailing???

Let me know.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from
"Foundation"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located
next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:16:06 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Machine Guns
Message-ID: <199605010017.RAA23100@mom.hooked.net>

I know the M-249 SAW, we recieved it when I was still in the Army (1985/86ish).

Within the last few months, however, the Army and USMC have adopted a new
7.62mm LMG, designated the M-240D.  This is basically the same weapon as the
coaxial MG in most US tanks.

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#  "To treat your facts with imagination is one     #
#   thing.  But to imagine your facts is another."  #
#                                  -John Burroughs  #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:47:22 -3100 (PDT)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: need comments on this "what is traveller?" article
Message-ID: <199605010247.TAA15100@e2.empirenet.com>


Okay, I guess I'm feeling uncommonly brave today, because I
have what may be a fairly controversial article written for
all the Traveller-newbies out there. I've been off this list
for the past few years and have only recently resubscribed,
so I figured I'd better check my facts with you guys before
finalizing this. If you think I made any factual errors or
overlooked anything particularly noteworthy, please email
me. I would rather not start a flamewar with this, so you
can feel free to email me directly if you would rather keep
the list's bandwidth down to a reasonable level (some people
are paying for this, right?).    jimv@empirenet.com


What is Traveller?              (all in my humble opinion...
------------------               jimv@empirenet.com)

Traveller is a science fiction roleplaying game originally
published by Game Designers' Workshop (GDW) back in the late 70s.
As the first well-supported RPG of its genre, it drew a large
following which continues to "hang on" even through the recent
demise of GDW.

The initial version of the game, which many enthusiasts dubbed
"Classic Traveller" (CT), consisted not only of a set of rules
but also of an official campaign setting. This background
postulated the Imperium, a large human dominated empire
consisting of thousands of star systems, as well as several alien
nations outside the imperial aegis. One of the main draws of the
Traveller RPG was this background material which was long-held to
be some of the most in-depth campaign-fodder anywhere in the
roleplaying games publishing industry. An even more interesting
feature of this background was that it wasn't frozen in any
particular time period. As real time went by, so too did time
flow in the official game setting, so that the setting itself
evolved over time as major events (wars, assassinations) took
place.

Players would typically play characters who were interstellar
merchants or mercenaries, jumping from star system to star system
trying to make enough money to finance their ship. Eventually, a
war occurred between the Imperium and another human dominated
government, disrupting commerce and tending to put the characters
into ever more dangerous predicaments. This war, though it was
stalemated, eventually led to a rebellion within the Imperium,
which became the background for Traveller's next edition, called
MegaTraveller (MT).

As might be expected, many Traveller players were a little miffed
about the Imperium suddenly ripping itself apart. They had
already set up their campaigns around the idea of a relatively
stabile empire and didn't want to suddenly change everything
simply because GDW had decided to make a drastic change to the
setting. Traveller also became somewhat neglected during these
years (as evidenced, in part, by the exceptionally poor
proofreading of the key MegaTraveller books). The rules were also
rather complicated (although the task-system was hailed as a
success) and GDW's support of the game was rather sporadic.
Fortunately, a company by the name of Digest Group Publications,
which had its roots as a Traveller fanzine, look the lead in
developing support material for the game so that it didn't die
altogether.

Somehow, the GDW/DGP partnership seemed to dissolve, however, and
GDW finally came up with a third attempt, this one called
Traveller: The New Era (or "The New Error", a name conjured by
those who worried that the proofreading might be as dismal as
Traveller's former incarnation). In this setting, the great
Imperial rebellion was at an end. What ended it was not human
common sense so much as human ingenuity. Someone had engineered a
very intelligent computer virus, and the virus was taking over
various worlds and killing the inhabitants. Suddenly the war-
effort was no longer so important as mere survival.

Although reminiscent of Twilight 2000, another game by GDW
dealing with global holocaust, The New Era (TNE) involved the
rediscovery of forgotten worlds and hence concentrated on
exploration much more than its two predecessors. Further, the
character generation system was expanded and streamlined and
generally hailed as a success.

Of course, those Traveller players who disliked the idea of a
shattered Imperium even less liked the idea of a dead one.
However, there were many players who liked the exploration aspect
of TNE which the prior versions of Traveller had seemed to miss.
Hence, the fact that the Traveller-audience is now fragmented
into groups that play in the classic setting, others that play in
the rebellion setting, and still others that play in the new era,
can be viewed simultaneously as both a weakness and as a
strength.

Traveller's next edition, still unnamed, is to be published by
Imperium Games, a new company founded by Marc Miller who was
Classic Traveller's original designer. Many players look forward
to this new edition which promises to bring even more diversity
and gaming possibilities to the official Traveller setting by
exploring other historical eras.


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 675
***************************
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 676

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Gauss weapons/Mass drivers (was logistics)
	by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  2) rec.tml.firearms
	by prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
  3) Bullet Sprayers
	by prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
  4) RESULTS OF SURVEY ON FUTURE OF TML/XTML
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  5) Jimv's Primer on Traveller
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  6) Cost'o'livin'
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
  7) New Trav
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
  8) Starport confusion
	by henric.ahlrot@gdc.stud.gu.se (Henric Ahlrot)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 11:33:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Gauss weapons/Mass drivers (was logistics)
Message-ID: <N3N8mD1w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Several people seem to think that ammo for gauss weapons and mass
drivers would be complex and hard to manufacture. One cited FF&S.
I don't have FF&S but I have talked with folks who work with the real
thing (at Lawrence Livermore Labs).

While it's true that you can't just take a random hunk of metal and
shape it to produce a round, it won't be *that* much harder except for
the hypervelocity weapons, where you have problems with the round
*flowing* under its own weight.

FF&S may be using "fancy" rounds. But a gauss rifle that fires solid
"needles" at 5000 fps or so is easily doable with "near future" tech.
And making it able to work with a variety of metals isn't much harder.

Yes, you can magnetically accelerate *non-ferrous* metals. It just
requires a *changing field, not a steady one. And in fact, the "rail
gun" type setup is actually quite insensitive to what the projectile is
made of. It just has to be conductive.

So for this type of "gauss rifle" you could use *current* tech to put
"in the field" ammo manufacture into the back of a small van! Give that
you need some tools and the like for the unit armorer to do maintenance
on weapons anyway, having this as part of a support vehicle at the
company (or lower) level isn't *that* much of a stretch.

All it amounts to is something for chopping metal up into workable size
chunks, and then forcing the chunks thru wire drawing dies. Then the
pieces of wire get die formed into rounds. Sure, it's crude. and you
could improve it in several different ways. But it'd *work*, and it'd
be pretty rugged.

For the bigger mass drivers, things get a bit more complicated, I
agree. Then again, anything above squad support weapons is probably
better as energy/plasma weapons, except where you need indirect fire
weapons. And most current uses of *those* are better served by
ortillery.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:11:44 -0500
From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: rec.tml.firearms
Message-ID: <199605011711.MAA12405@marlin.gulf.net>

One vote to terminate de bullet sprayer M-249 vs M-242 vs M-240 debate.

Conviently after I posted about it.  O Well  :->


Tariq

Now you got right on the edge, go on, get up, get up, you mention her
name once more and ill tear your arms out.


>"Each one of us, in his timidity, has a limit beyond which he is outraged.  It 
>is inevitable that he who by concentrated application has extended this limit 
>for himself, should arouse the resentment of those who have accepted 
>conventions which, since accepted by all, require no initiative of
application. 
> And this resentment generally takes the form of meaningless laughter or of 
>criticism, if not persecution.  But this apparent violation is preferable to 
>the monstrous habits condoned by etiquette and estheticism." - Man Ray, Paris 
>1934


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:45:26 -0500
From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Bullet Sprayers
Message-ID: <199605011645.LAA11311@marlin.gulf.net>


My little bro, an ammo tek in de marines, talks about swappin
barrels on de SAW all de time.

Friend o mine in de Marines said de marines were lookin 
at a 7.62mmN replacement for te M-60, or was it de army
It was M-242 or so, maybe a visit to de army web site will
tell.  

Tariq

I ave a few keys not workin on my keyboard see if you can uess
reen rass rows reat fusion un man portables
elp arry te awk

Explains de bad rammar


>"Each one of us, in his timidity, has a limit beyond which he is outraged.  It 
>is inevitable that he who by concentrated application has extended this limit 
>for himself, should arouse the resentment of those who have accepted 
>conventions which, since accepted by all, require no initiative of
application. 
> And this resentment generally takes the form of meaningless laughter or of 
>criticism, if not persecution.  But this apparent violation is preferable to 
>the monstrous habits condoned by etiquette and estheticism." - Man Ray, Paris 
>1934


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:09:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>,
Subject: RESULTS OF SURVEY ON FUTURE OF TML/XTML
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960430151703.13272A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.  The survey results are in.  A number of you encouraged me and/or
thanked me for doing the survey, and to you I say "you're welcome and 
thanks".  Now here are the results (drum roll please): 

There were 63 total votes.  According to Rob Miracle, there are over 500 
individual addresses which subscribe to the list, so we may not have 
quorum, but here's the breakdown of the votes:

Option	 Votes	Percentage
1	 5	(08.0%)				
2	 6	(09.5%)			
3	 3	(04.8%)
4	 2	(03.2%)
5	23	(36.5%)
6	 2	(03.2%)
7	15	(23.8%)
8	 7	(11.1%)

In the likely event that you didn't memorize what the options were, 
here's a recap:

1. Leave Traveller and Xboat alone, create new mailing list for New
Traveller.

2. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Xboat.

3. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Traveller.

4. Leave lists as are, and discuss New Traveller on either/both.

5. Create single list for all game versions.

6. Create several lists divided by topic, such as technology, history,
rules, etc.

7. Create new list for TNE, discuss New Traveller on Traveller, and leave
Xboat for CT/MT.

8. Other (please specify).

Option 5 was the clear winner, though 7 may be a closer second than it 
seems, since option 1 was very similar (only the names of the lists are 
changed) and individuals voting for one often indicated in comments that the 
other was also a preference.

Most of the option 8 voters were calling for a "wait and see when NT 
comes out" approach, though there were one or two calls for instituting a 
news group instead.

For those of you who sent in votes in an improper format, rest assured 
that I did go through your messages and included your indicated 
preferences in the survey.

I have not had time to do any stats on the numbers above to see what the 
confidence limits are or anything like that, but I may do so within the 
next week or so.


NOW FOR THE EDITORIAL PORTION OF OUR PROGRAM:

There seems to be a split between two major groups here, which I will 
call the Fractionalists and the Unionists (Fracs and Unis for short).  
The Fracs seem to think that it is a logical progression to go from 2 
lists for two game versions to 3 lists for three game versions.  The 
problem of cross posting does not concern them as much as it does the 
Unis.  The Unis want everyone to be one happy family and get everything 
back together again.  The Unis hate redundant postings.

Personally, I put myself in the Frac camp, and prefer option 7 or option 1
(three lists for CT/MT, TNE, and NT, respectively).  My main reasons for
this are as follows: 

1. One big list (i.e., option 5 or the Unis position) would lead to
confusion in new players, who would be confronted with a list where 50-75% of
the material would not be about the version of the game they just bought. 
They would have to figure out the whole history the Traveller game
versions and then sift through to find the NT material they were
interested in. 

2. One big list would result in very large digests which would contain a
great deal of information irrelavant to anyone's particular favorite game
version.  For instance, I do not want to have to sift through a bunch of
FF&S designs to get to the CT/MT/NT stuff that interests me, and I'm sure
there are others who just the opposite.  Also, individuals paying for
storage would have to pay extra for information they don't want. 


Having said that, I could live with the Unionist option if some rules 
were instituted along the following lines:

1. All messages would be clearly labelled as to which game versions they 
applied to.  A prefix system might be one way to do it:  CT/MT, TNE, NT, or 
ALL would go before the message title.

2. All messages would have to have a title.  No more "Re: Traveller 
Digest 666" or similar vague subject lines.

3. Quoting previous messages would be limited.  No more pasting in 5 
generations of replies on a particular topic.

4. Any message which was over a particular length would be labelled as 
LONG in the title.

5. Flame wars would be quickly extinguished or moved to personal email 
addresses.

If we are going to have one list only for all Traveller versions, then I 
would suggest that the TML FAQ have an article (similar to one posted 
recently) explaining the history of the game.  Another idea would be a 
list of often used acronyms (e.g., TML and FAQ :-), so that newbies would 
not feel lost.

Well, that's all the ramble I got in me.  
Comments? Criticisms? Ranting Flames?

Charles.

<0>        "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" -- Margaret Atwood        <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 10:23:51 -0800
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Jimv's Primer on Traveller
Message-ID: <v01540a01adad5960d4a4@[137.229.100.56]>

I only see two problems

1)      CT added the background material in supplements and adventures; the
only background material In MY CT books was that the imperium existed, had
an emperor and a hierarchy of nobles, and had 4 military services,
merchants, and "Other".

2)      TNE IS the same rules mechanics as T:2k, with added fiddlybits to
CG. It's not just reminiscent; the two systems are 99% interoperable.


William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

Date: 01 May 96 15:54:40 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Cost'o'livin'
Message-ID: <960501195440_100326.446_JHF38-3@CompuServe.COM>


>> Has anyone ever consireded the prices of everyday wares in Traveller? I have
MT and TN, and they both list very accurately the cost of a lid of a bullet
clip, but nowhere is any reference to normal food, clothes etc.  This amazes me,
because almost every fantasy game I have played lists these things ... perhaps
they have food automats at every corner in Traveller.. <<

Book 3 (Classic) had a calculation for monthly living expenses for characters,
based on Social Standing. Something like Cr100 per month per Soc pip. Efficient
mechanic for getting on with the game, but rather dull.

However, most things people will want to buy are available in the RW. So I just
take the price in L, double it and call it Cr. Can of beer? Cr2, luv.

HWF


------------------------------

Date: 01 May 96 15:54:37 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: New Trav
Message-ID: <960501195437_100326.446_JHF38-2@CompuServe.COM>


>> I remember Imperium Games announcing a mailing list.  I subscribed, but as of
yet haven't recieved a thing from them. <<

I missed the announcement of the address. Can you post it up?

>> But I suspect the Traveller universe will remain a Galactic Empire (in some
Milieus, at least) steeped in Golden Age science fiction with occasional and not
overly intrusive admixtures of more recent themes and discoveries. <<

Good! That's Traveller.


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 02:43:36 +0200
From: henric.ahlrot@gdc.stud.gu.se (Henric Ahlrot)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Starport confusion
Message-ID: <v01530501adadb4e56551@[130.241.27.184]>

Hi all!

I'm new to the Traveller Digest as well as to the Xboat Digest so I am not
familiar with any previous treads that may have been exhausted. I have a
question regarding what may be one such "expired" subject:

Who sets up and runs a starport? From what I can learn from the various
sourcebooks available to me, starports are considered to be local affairs.
A planetary government or a company (or a combination of the two) are
responsible for the construction and maintenance of a starport. But how
does this mesh with TL. I mean, you can get a, say, A starport on a TL-7
world. How can that world conduct overhauls on TL-15 craft (or construct
starships for that matter)? Do they rely on imported parts, materials, and
machinery? If so, what if the nearest world with TL 15 were located far
(15+ parsecs) away? Wouldn't that affect prices?

I hope somebody can help me out.

Cheerio,

Henric Ahlrot/Gothenburg, Sweden
henric.ahlrot@gdc.stud.gu.se



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 676
***************************
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X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 677

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Machine guns et c
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  2) Re: Gauss weapons/Mass drivers (was logistics)
	by jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
  3) Discussing weapons on TML and XTML
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:55:51 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Machine guns et c
Message-ID: <v02140b00adae5f6937bd@[193.12.250.151]>

>I know the M-249 SAW, we recieved it when I was still in the Army (1985/86i=
sh).
>
>Within the last few months, however, the Army and USMC have adopted a new
>7.62mm LMG, designated the M-240D.  This is basically the same weapon as th=
e
>coaxial MG in most US tanks.

Maybe I'm a bit dim but what does "USMC adopted this gun, army guys use
that gun, my gun is bigger than your gun=8A" et c has to do with Traveller?
If you're about to discuss guns please confine yourself to gundesingns in
Traveller, 3G^3 et c as this nitpicking on contemporary gun use is
uninteresting to me and (probably) most subscribers.
There's probably lots of mailing lists for military types and gun freaks in
cyberspace, use them.

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: 	Thu, 02 May 1996 17:29:06 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons/Mass drivers (was logistics)
Message-ID: <3187fd71.32793255@mail.Direct.CA>

Howdy, howdy... new to the list... yada, yada (you know the rest).

On Wed, 1 May 1996 09:22:01 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:

=> Several people seem to think that ammo for gauss weapons and mass
=> drivers would be complex and hard to manufacture. One cited FF&S.
=> I don't have FF&S but I have talked with folks who work with the real
=> thing (at Lawrence Livermore Labs).
=> 
=> While it's true that you can't just take a random hunk of metal and
=> shape it to produce a round, it won't be *that* much harder except for
=> the hypervelocity weapons, where you have problems with the round
=> *flowing* under its own weight.
=> 
=> FF&S may be using "fancy" rounds. But a gauss rifle that fires solid
=> "needles" at 5000 fps or so is easily doable with "near future" tech.
=> And making it able to work with a variety of metals isn't much harder.

The main difference between what is "doable today" and Traveller's version of
gauss weaponry in the future lies in energy consumption.  Today's mass drivers
must energize sections of the "barrel" one at a time to accelerate a projectile,
timing the switching via computer.  FF&S's design incorporates the projectile
into the electric circuit which creates the magnetic field, allowing the weapon
to more accurately localize the field.  As the round moves forward, so does the
circuit, and so does the resulting magnetic field.  By creating such a localized
field, energy consumption goes way down and portability becomes possible.

FF&S is talking about an extremely refined version of the mass driver technology
available today.  Just as a piece of magnetite (or loadstone) makes a fairly
decent magnet, wrapping it around an iron core improves its efficiency by quite
a bit.

jlindsay@direct.ca      Vancouver, British Columbia

"Always keep enough cash in your bank account for a
 tutu and a high-powered rifle"  <<<JL: 04-04-96>>>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:19:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Discussing weapons on TML and XTML
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960502161344.4898B-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

There have been some complaints recently regarding the discussion of 
weaponry on the mailing lists.  I just wanted to voice my support for 
those who have been sharing their knowledge with us.  I do not think it 
is irrelevant at all.  I have enjoyed the discussions (and, indeed, have 
saved many of the posts) so far, and hope to see more.

I see these discussions as a way to bring greater depth to the game.  
That is, it brings an aspect of the game (guns) from the mythical level 
to the realistic level.  Instead of cardboard guns, I can now have more 
realistic guns.

When I was doing the research for the RPG I wrote seven years ago (which 
was never published - I'll write a post about that sometime), I ended up 
delving into a lot of weaponry and armor research.  None of the 
literature I perused on this subject was specificially for RPG's, yet 
reading them improved my understanding of combat paraphanalia.  This, in 
turn, improved the role-playing experience for me and my players.

I vote for continued non-flame discussions of weaponry.

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 677
***************************
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 678

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Machine guns
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  2) Re: Machine guns
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  3) 
	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  4) Guns, Guns and MORE Guns
	by 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
  5) Re: Guns, Guns and MORE Guns
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  6) Re:  Discussing weapons on TML and XTML
	by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
  7) Gun Gripes
	by Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
  8) Continued Gun Talk?
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  9) More SubSector Viewer Stuff
	by Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
 10) Re: Guns, Guns and MORE Guns
	by jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
 11) Why we need Tactics (Long)
	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 12) Re: Why we need Tactics (Long)
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
 13) Gauss wepons/Mass drivers
	by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
 14) Freeware Sector Viewer/Generator
	by Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 13:34:59 +0100
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Machine guns
Message-ID: <v02140b00adafac7c8d09@DialupEudora>

>There have been some complaints recently regarding the discussion of
>weaponry on the mailing lists.  I just wanted to voice my support for
>
>I see these discussions as a way to bring greater depth to the game.
>That is, it brings an aspect of the game (guns) from the mythical level
>to the realistic level.  Instead of cardboard guns, I can now have more
>realistic guns.
>
>I vote for continued non-flame discussions of weaponry.
>
>-Joe

I'll try to be a bit clearer on the subject. It's OK to talk about
contemporary gunperformance, weight et c of course and yes it is absolutely
necessary to have real world(tm) data in order to make a gun design system
to work. What I don't think is the tiniest bit interesting is what gun USMC
are using or when the Gurkhas replaced their M-16 or watever. This is
historical info for T2000 guys perhaps but TOTALLY useless to Traveller
GMs. Try to understand what I'm getting at here before flaming me.

PS If somebody on the list is interested in real world(tm) formulae for
explosion pressure, penetration that are used by Rheinmetall in designing
real guns please let me know. DS

/Backman

"Vad v=E4rlden =E4r =E4r allt vad som =E4r fallet"
L Wittgenstein
Tractatus Logico Philosophicus

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 07:22:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Machine guns
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960503071816.5374A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Fri, 3 May 1996, Anders Backman wrote:

> I'll try to be a bit clearer on the subject. It's OK to talk about
> contemporary gunperformance, weight et c of course and yes it is absolutely
> necessary to have real world(tm) data in order to make a gun design system
> to work. What I don't think is the tiniest bit interesting is what gun USMC
> are using or when the Gurkhas replaced their M-16 or watever. This is
> historical info for T2000 guys perhaps but TOTALLY useless to Traveller
> GMs. Try to understand what I'm getting at here before flaming me.

	I hope you don't think my previous message was a flame.  I 
certainly didn't mean to appear abusive.  Rather, I merely voiced my own, 
opposing, opinion.  I certainly didn't mean to appear to lambast you.
	Further, I do understand what you are getting at.  However, I see 
the knowledge of what current military units use in various situations 
(ie, submarines and ground combat) as being translatable into the 
Traveller universe.  
	This is just my opinion, and I don't begrudge you yours.

> PS If somebody on the list is interested in real world(tm) formulae for
> explosion pressure, penetration that are used by Rheinmetall in designing
> real guns please let me know. DS

	Explosives are a somewhat less-covered topic in most RPGs.  
I think it would be good to know more about them.  If you have the time, 
please do post it.

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 May 96 13:42:00 PDT
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>, xboat <xboat@MPGN.COM>
Message-ID: <318A7085@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>



Anders Backman wrote

>Maybe I'm a bit dim but what does "USMC adopted this gun, army guys use
>that gun, my gun is bigger than your gun=8A" et c has to do with Traveller?
>If you're about to discuss guns please confine yourself to gundesingns in
>Traveller, 3G^3 et c as this nitpicking on contemporary gun use is
>uninteresting to me and (probably) most subscribers.
>There's probably lots of mailing lists for military types and gun freaks in
>cyberspace, use them.

and Joe Walsh wrote

>There have been some complaints recently regarding the discussion of
>weaponry on the mailing lists.  I just wanted to voice my support for
>those who have been sharing their knowledge with us.  I do not think it
>is irrelevant at all.  I have enjoyed the discussions (and, indeed, have
>saved many of the posts) so far, and hope to see more.

I hope we don't get into a flamewar about this.  I have no objection to
discussion about weaponry on the list - after all it plays a large part in
many Traveller campaigns.  However, as with many threads, I think
we ought to keep an eye on the relevance of what we post to
Traveller.  There comes a point when some threads have moved
away from their origins considerably, and, while interesting, do not
have that much to do with Traveller.  In cases like that, maybe the
particpants should think about moving the discussion to e-mail.

An analogy would be a discussion which starts off discussing grav
vehicles in Traveller, then moves to discussing lower tech transport,
which moves on to discussing 20th century Terran transport which
then moves on to comparing the Ferrari with the Lamborghini.
Fascinating for all the fans, not so much so for everyone else.

I am aware that there is probably a cultural split between posters in
the US and posters in Europe.  Quite simply, the number of people
interested in guns as a hobby or interest is far less in Europe than
it is in the States, for a whole variety of reasons, not least of which
are the differences in availability and legality.  As a result, discussions
which centre too much on Real World gun discussions, as opposed
to Traveller gun discussions, tend not to be so interesting to some
members of the list from outside the US.  An analogy would be
some list members from Europe discussing governmental
structures in Traveller, using the European Union as examples of
governmental structures, and then ending up talking about what
is essentially European politics rather than Traveller.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I do not wish to offend anybody's
views on issues relating to guns.  I've tried to keep my personal
views on the subject out of this deliberately so as not to perpetuate
the argument I am concerned this could slide into.  I just wanted to
offer a small plea for consideration amongst all sides of the views of
the others.

My, that all sounded awfully serious.  Anyone got any views on
a less contentious subject such as hurling rocks at planets,
feudal technocracy or the scientific plausibility of the Virus?   ;-)

Iain
iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:11:03 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Guns, Guns and MORE Guns
Message-ID: <199605031411.KAA24095@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

   I would much rather see discussion on firearms and their actual
characteristics than another round of "Let's banish the TNE fans to the
wilderness"...
   On the other hand, I admit that most such discussions leave me lost, and
their relationship to TRAVELLER is tangential at best. TRAVELLER is not and
never has been an accurate simulation of real-world firearms. First, it's
somewhat abstracted for playability. Secondly, dealing with such a wide range
of technologies, it quickly goes beyond what's real. (Although some think
not far enough :) ) If the amount of discussion of guns bothers you, start a
discussion on something else! All threads die off eventually.
   By the way, my friend Dave Nelson (NOT Nilsen-don't panic) and I are
having a mini-argument. I say the fire combat rules in GURPS are better than
TNE because you can aim autofire weapons. He says you can't aim them in real
life. What do you thinK?
                    Allen 


------------------------------

Date: 03 May 96 10:50:00 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Guns, Guns and MORE Guns
Message-ID: <19395977@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

--- You wrote:
I say the fire combat rules in GURPS are better than
TNE because.........
--- end of quoted material ---
Grossly 
Unrealistic
Role
Playing
System

nuff said. 

GURPS for a combat resolution system couldn't find it's way out of a wet paper
bag, IMHO. The original Twilight:2000 rules were the best so fat that I've
seen, and TNE in't so far off.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 11:14:30 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  Discussing weapons on TML and XTML
Message-ID: <s189ec79.085@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>

Joe Walsh writes:

>There have been some complaints recently regarding the discussion of 
>weaponry on the mailing lists.

   Probably fans of Dr. Who type sci-fi in which only the bad guys
regularly carry firearms.

   One things for sure, not all science-fiction revolves around in depth
character studies, mystery solving, or ray guns that make people glow
white hot for a second then disappear.  Certainly Traveller never did.

>I just wanted to voice my support for  those who have been sharing
>their knowledge with us.  I do not think it  is irrelevant at all.  I have
>enjoyed the discussions (and, indeed, have  saved many of the posts)
>so far, and hope to see more.

   I would like to second that opinion.  To put together any kind of table
of organization and equipment for military units in the 57-58th century,
you must examine how such units are organized today and why.  Part
of that examination must include a look at weaponry, because the types
of weapons carried and what they are actually used for gives you
valuable insights you otherwise would not get.  For example, knowing
what several rows of 16 foot long pikes will do to a determined charge
mounted by armored knights helps you understand why pike formations
were bunched so closely together.  This also helps you understand the
logic of the close infantry formation used up until WW I (massed fire can
be just as devastating as running up on pikes).  

   OK, so apply this to Traveller you say.  At TL 12, plasma rifles have a
relatively short range--but like the pike are devastating closer in.  We
can speculate therefore that they are not employed in homogeneous
units, but in infantry units somewhat similar to those used during the
Thirty Years War (which consisted of pikemen and troops armed with
primitive muskets, each protecting the other's weakness).  A typical 
TL 12 infantry unit probably consists of a mix of heavy gauss rifles
(to engage the enemy at ranges beyond the effective range of plasma
rifles) and energy weapons (for devastating close in fire).  We could
also talk about support weapons (light, highly mobile cannons which
evolve into grenade and rocket launchers and mortars, etc.), but you get
the idea.

>I see these discussions as a way to bring greater depth to the game.  

   From my perspective, talking about weapons is not off topic, especially
when their real world applications are brought up.  Sure, there are
those of you who find such things boring, but not every topic posted
here appeals to everyone.

   What I especially don't want to see is another flame war over gun
control.  My built in flame war sensor tells me that this thread might be
leading toward that, and I don't think we need a repeat.

> That is, it brings an aspect of the game (guns) from the mythical level 
>to the realistic level.  Instead of cardboard guns, I can now have more
>realistic guns.

   And you realize just how powerful, and how dangerous they really
can be if you happen to be at the wrong end of one.  Guns are tools, and
while you can use them for enjoyment (i.e. target practice, hunting) they
are not toys.  When they are kept at the mythical level, it's too easy to
think of them as the latter.

>I vote for continued non-flame discussions of weaponry.

   I second the motion.

Regards,

Harold
(who is going back into lurk mode until he finishes his latest project)




------------------------------

Date:  3 May 96  9:18:26 MS
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>, xboat <xboat@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Gun Gripes
Message-ID: <9605031514.AA05532@khan.avalon.COM>

RANT MODE ON

I find it absolutely amazing that people are griping about "gun posts" on a 
list devoted to a game written by a WARGAME DESIGNER, published by a WARGAME 
COMPANY and whose rules are at least 66% concerned with WEAPONS and COMBAT.  If 
you are personally offended by firearms, that's your business, but given the 
number of different people making posts about firearms, its obvious that most 
people on this list have some level of interest in the subject.

Ordinarily, I would not be some forceful, but I recently got a couple of flames 
sent to my work E-Mail for having the outrageous nerve to post about Weapons of 
Non-Leathal Intent on X-Boat.  Unfortunately, I deleted the messages out of 
annoyance before I came up with a reasonable response, but I consider those 
sorts of things (and the complaints on XBOAT and TML) to be silly at best.

RANT MODE OFF

Not really trying to offend anyone; I'm just a bit annoyed.
Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
My Employer Has No Opinions

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 09:11:14 -0800
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Continued Gun Talk?
Message-ID: <v01540a00adafed16527b@[137.229.100.70]>

I vote NAY... The current thread has been a week of pointless bickering
over what appeared to be a throwaway reference to a new US SAW/LMG.

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 14:08:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: More SubSector Viewer Stuff
Message-ID: <199605031808.OAA06664@mag1.magmacom.com>


Hi everyone,

I've perked up the Java Subsector viewer a 
bit with multi-threaded behaviour.  You should
now get "please wait..." messages when you have
to wait.

My next improvement is (I think) going to be
sector dot-maps for the sector selector.

http://www.magmacom.com/~ehenry/traveller

Oh, also - it now supports double-clicking.

Please send me any suggestions!

Ethan ehenry@magmacom.com


------------------------------

Date: 	Fri, 03 May 1996 18:12:03 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Guns, Guns and MORE Guns
Message-ID: <318a4b04.9259692@mail.Direct.CA>

On Fri, 3 May 1996 10:11:36 -0400, you wrote:

=>    By the way, my friend Dave Nelson (NOT Nilsen-don't panic) and I are
=> having a mini-argument. I say the fire combat rules in GURPS are better than
=> TNE because you can aim autofire weapons. He says you can't aim them in real
=> life. What do you thinK?

At the risk of prolonging a thread that fewer and fewer people seem to
appreciate, the answer is YES... you can aim autofire weapons.  I have seen
pictures of the Douglas County Sheriff's Dept. in Oregon training with their
Glock 18's (a fully automatic version of the increasingly popular Glock 17).  On
picture shows a total of *seven* shell casings in the air while the pistol
remains more or less level (the author is shown using a two-handed stance and
the weapon does not incorporate any kind of stock).  If a machine pistol can be
kept level after firing seven rounds, I imagine that the same could be said of
today's SMGs and Assault Rifles.

I think I might know a little too much about guns for a Canadian!



jlindsay@direct.ca      Vancouver, British Columbia

"Always keep enough cash in your bank account for a
 tutu and a high-powered rifle"  <<<JL: 04-04-96>>>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 14:19:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Why we need Tactics (Long)
Message-ID: <199605031919.OAA26283@ConnectI.com>

While it is true that combat is only a portion of Traveller, trying to set
the mood for the fighting is just as important as tryuing to set the mood
for the mystery.  I have always hated systems that reduced my personal
knowledge of weapons and tactics due to poor rules, or poor GMs.  If a GM
doesn't have a fairly good understanding of how combat works, it can spoil
the game for everyone.  A poorly run combat can spoil an adventure just as
fast as a poor plot or weak NPCs.  That is the hard part of being a GM you
have to be good at EVERYTHING.

Now perhaps this particular discussion went a little too far into the realm
of the mundane, but it does have its place.  TNE uses the same rule system
as TW2K2.2 and so a discussion of modern weaponry is appropriate.  Also so
since most of the TEDs are about TL 6-9.  My complaint with most RPG combat
is that it goes something like this.  Charaters and Enemy get into
argument/meet each other/etc.  Characters win intiative and shoot up Enemy.
Enemy shoots back, mostly missing.  Combat ends with Characers victorious
and all enemy dead unless captives are needed.

Now while this will certainly work from a cinematic standpoint, I prefer
trying to make characters take cover and treat their caracters like they
were actually there.  If someone started shooting at you what would you do?
Stand there and pull out your gun then start blasting back?  Not likely!
You will most likely dive for cover then try and figure out where the fire
is coming from then try and either suppress the enemy position or flank it.

If your players don't want that (my wife sure doesn't), then leave out some
detail.  Phoenix Command by Leading Edge Games was too far to the extreme of
deadliness and realism.  It bogged game play down considerable for most
players.  White Wolfs Storyteller System is sort of at the other end of the
spectrum.  Lets say I want to dive for cover while spraying suppresive fire
with my M-16.  First of all Even if I have a 9 die pool in firearms and a 5
die pool in dodge, I only get the 5 dice.  Then I have to split it into two
actions, say 3 dice to shoot and 2 to dodge.  It seems to work, but it
really doesn't.  My opponents just stand there and take 1 shot while not
dodging.  I will most likely miss, and they will most likly hit.  WW wants
to tell a story, and that is fine, but I want the skill of my character (and
my roleplaying) to determine the outcome of a fight not some strange simple
system.  The GM has to understand basic combat tactics and sprinkle just
enough in to make the game believable and fun for their players.  Set up
ambushes, use Artillery, Land Mines, and Machine Guns.  Let the enemy troops
make tactics rolls (or just use sound tactics) to suppress and out-flank the
players positions.  Have NPCs surrender or run away.  In most combats its
not a toe-to-toe slugfest until everyone is dead.  Have the enemy use cover
and movement to hide their position from the players then fire at them from
new positions to keep their heads down.  The end result will be in longer
combats both in game time and real time, but it will also convince
characters to STOP using SMG diplomacy!

Traveller came about in the 70's and I started playing it when I was still a
Hack & Slasher.  I used to love getting into as many fights as we could in a
game session (starship or land).  It was as I got older (and after I joined
the Army) that I realized that combat was deadly, complex, frightening, and
random.  The best skilled person wasn't always the winner, so you avoided it
when you could.  Combat became a last resort.  Sometimes in RPGs it is
necessary, but even then it should never be entered into lightly.  People
will DIE! Players too!  

To end this long diatribe (and don't take this personnaly Anders this is not
directed at you but rather at anyone who wonders why David Broussard is a
"Gun Nut")  I simply want to say that if more GMs understand how deadly
combat can be then players might be forced into less violent solutions to
most problems.  Also when the shooting does start, the players will get a
glimpse of the confusion, fear, and danger of a gunfight.

DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: 03 May 96 15:52:20 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Why we need Tactics (Long)
Message-ID: <19411358@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

I concur with Master Broussard. A point he didn't bring up that may help put
thi into perspective is the occasional post having to do with economics in the
Traveller Universe(s); Frankly, most $$$ issues make my eyes roll back in my
head, but the techie, astronautic,navigation or combat resolution discussions
get my attention. 

Lets face it; as Broussard sez, combat is the last resort and should be avoided
at all costs, in realtime and gametime. the Universe is not a universally
pleasant place to be, however. If things get so bad that people feel no resort
but to shoot (back), then isn't it good that someone is discussing HOW?

my .02cr...


-j

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 May 96 12:59:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Gauss wepons/Mass drivers
Message-ID: <q2BDND1w165w@krypton.rain.com>

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)

>On Wed, 1 May 1996 09:22:01 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>=> Several people seem to think that ammo for gauss weapons and mass
>=> drivers would be complex and hard to manufacture. One cited FF&S.
>=> I don't have FF&S but I have talked with folks who work with the real
>=> thing (at Lawrence Livermore Labs).
>=> 
>=> While it's true that you can't just take a random hunk of metal and
>=> shape it to produce a round, it won't be *that* much harder except for
>=> the hypervelocity weapons, where you have problems with the round
>=> *flowing* under its own weight.
>=> 
>=> FF&S may be using "fancy" rounds. But a gauss rifle that fires solid
>=> "needles" at 5000 fps or so is easily doable with "near future" tech.
>=> And making it able to work with a variety of metals isn't much harder.
>
>The main difference between what is "doable today" and Traveller's
>version of gauss weaponry in the future lies in energy consumption.
>Today's mass drivers must energize sections of the "barrel" one at a
>time to accelerate a projectile, timing the switching via computer.

Ah! They are assuming that all such weapons are "coil guns". These
require a magentic projectile and consist of a set of coils that create
a magnetic field along the axis of the "barrel". You have the segments
in front of the projectile set to attract it, and the ones behind it
set to repel it. Basicly a linear electric motor.

>FF&S's design incorporates the projectile into the electric circuit
>which creates the magnetic field, allowing the weapon to more
>accurately localize the field.  As the round moves forward, so does
>the circuit, and so does the resulting magnetic field.  By creating
>such a localized field, energy consumption goes way down and
>portability becomes possible.

Check out the design of a "rail gun" type mass driver. The projectile
is conductive. The accelerator consists of a pair of conductors running
the length of the "barrel", and a magnetic field *perpendicular* to the
rails. The current flowing thru the projectile reacts with the magnetic
field to accelerate it. 

While segmenting and switching the field could help power consumption
on a rail gun, it would *greatly* increase the complexity, and increase
the chance of failure.

The rail gun design is suited to military use *because* it is so
simple. And the fact that it doesn't scale up well is irrelevant for
man portable weapons. 

With "room temp" superconductors or advanced high field permanent
magnets you could have the magnetic field using *no* power. So you just
need a power supply that can throw enough current into the rails. 

The main need of a rail gun is a strong, relatively uniform magnetic
field, and a high current power supply. The velocity attained depends
on three factors:

1. magnetic field strength
2. current flow across the projectile
3. length of barrel

For a "gauss rifle" you want the barrel length to be relatively short.
And you'll be limited on current by the heating of the projectile and
rails. The projectile is the real limiting factor there. And there are
limits on practical magnetic field strength. 

On the other hand, we only need to reach rifle-like velocities, not the
hyper-velocities that rail guns are currently used to study. That helps
a *lot*.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 16:34:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Freeware Sector Viewer/Generator
Message-ID: <199605032334.QAA25370@e2.empirenet.com>


Hi all. Well, I'm finally done revamping my sector viewer,
formerly known as galactic.zip. The new version is called
gal20.zip and is currently available from the programs section of
my homepage at http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/

This is a pretty hefty upgrade, so I'll go through a brief list
of attributes & requirements:

   *  Allows you to randomly generate sectors via both the
      traditional method and a variant method which has its roots
      in a Traveller Mailing List discussion dating back to 1993
      (included with the online help). You can also display the
      maps, of course, and it translates into English the UWP
      code of whatever world your "cursor" is on so you don't
      have to sit there with the book open.

   *  Keeps campaign notes in text files which can be accessed
      directly from the subsector map. The maps all mesh
      seemlessly, and access to your campaign notes is a single
      keystroke away. You can even organize your notes under a
      system of menus if you want to keep them organized.

   *  Thirteen of the Classic Traveller sectors are included
      along with a variant universe sector which I've just
      started to create (the Classic sectors came from the
      Sunbane ftp archive). All the sectors come complete with
      jump routes, incidentally, and several world write-ups by
      Rob Dean are also included with the Spinward Marches
      sector.

   *  Lots of online help. You don't even have to know much about
      Traveller in order to use this program. Basically, it was
      designed both for long-time players as well as for people
      who are curious about the game and are thinking of "getting
      into it."

   *  Built for DOS but, of course, also runs under Windows. You
      must have at least VGA graphics capability and over two
      megs of free diskspace.

   WARNING:   You must use "-d" option when unzipping:

      >>>>>>>>    pkunzip -d gal20.zip    <<<<<<<<

   Available Now:  http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/
   (go to the programs section and look around)

Let me know if you have any trouble getting the program. I'll
arrange for alternate distribution methods in the next day or
two. If your access is limited to email, let me know, and I'll
try to arrange to postal you a disk (you will owe me a world
description or two though :-)

jimv@empirenet.com


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 678
***************************
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Status: U

			    TRAVELLER Digest 679

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Continued Gun Talk?
	by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  2) Technology in Trav4
	by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  3) Survey results
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
  4) guns
	by t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
  5) Re: RESULTS OF SURVEY ON FUTURE OF TML/XTML
	by htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
  6) 66% Combat?
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  7) Re: guns
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:28:17 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Continued Gun Talk?
Message-ID: <01I4AKB2R3JS8Y87A7@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  3-MAY-1996 10:10:20.53
To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:	
Subj:	Continued Gun Talk?

Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 12:59:37 -0400
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Continued Gun Talk?

I vote NAY... The current thread has been a week of pointless bickering
over what appeared to be a throwaway reference to a new US SAW/LMG.

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What actually happened, IMO, is that incorrect info, throw-away or not,
was posted & then was corrected. I see no reason why incorrect info of
any sort should not be corrected. There's been lot's of times that cor-
rections to info, that I didn't care about in the first place anyway, have
been posted. That doesn't mean that I think there's something wrong about 
correcting it. Face it, if you subscribe to this list you will receive info
that you don't care about. I do, you do, everyone does. It just wastes time
& energy to make an issue about something that has no solution.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
 


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 00:43:51 +1000 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Technology in Trav4
Message-ID: <199605041443.AAA00381@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

Hi!

I've recently had the opportunity to peruse a very early first draft of the
Equipment Chapter for Traveller 4 (by Greg Porter of BTRC) ... and, without
giving away any confidences whatsoever, suffice it to say that Greg has done a
superb job that takes Trav4 equipment (and tech) into the realms of Science
Fictional futures that have been undreamed of in all previous editions.

This is advanced technology that is *really* advanced ... a great deal of
thought has been put into integrating it all and extrapolating current trends
rather than simply taking outmoded tech and calling it "futuristic" as has been
the tendency in the past.

Anyhow, I think that everyone on these lists will like it when they see it. And
if the Central Supply Catalog is half as good, well, we're in for a real treat!

Phil McGregor

------------------------------

Date: 04 May 96 11:43:59 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Survey results
Message-ID: <960504154358_100326.446_JHF67-2@CompuServe.COM>


>> Well, that's all the ramble I got in me.  Comments? Criticisms? Ranting
Flames? <<

A scholarly and well-done analysis. Although I don't use TNE, I get both lists -
because the more generic articles are still of interest. Another thing that
would make One Clear List a good idea is the adoption of a task standardization
code, as discussed elsewhere. You know, "8RDF" meaning 8+ in CT, Routine in MT,
Diff: in TNE and Formidable in T4.

till available ?


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 17:42:48 +0100 (BST)
From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: guns
Message-ID: <S9605041642.AA29178@sysc.abdn.ac.uk>


Trouble is with _realistic_ guns IMHO is that:
The players want them
The players do not want to be shot at by them.
If you make is *easier* to kill with a gun, then the character turnover rate
will be quicker, less chance of getting attached to the charactrs etc.



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 03:46:37 +0930
From: htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: RESULTS OF SURVEY ON FUTURE OF TML/XTML
Message-ID: <v01540b00adb13fb6b084@[203.15.30.46]>

Charles Collin informed us that Option 5 (Create single list for all game
versions) was the winner with Option 7 (Create new list for TNE, discuss
New Traveller on Traveller, and leave Xboat for CT/MT) the runner up.  He
then suggests some very reasonable ground rules for a combined list:

>1. All messages would be clearly labelled as to which game versions they
>applied to.  A prefix system might be one way to do it:  CT/MT, TNE, NT, or
>ALL would go before the message title.
>
>2. All messages would have to have a title.  No more "Re: Traveller
>Digest 666" or similar vague subject lines.
>
>3. Quoting previous messages would be limited.  No more pasting in 5
>generations of replies on a particular topic.
>
>4. Any message which was over a particular length would be labelled as
>LONG in the title.
>
>5. Flame wars would be quickly extinguished or moved to personal email
>addresses.

Very reasonable indeed - especially 1, 2 and 5.

So, now that everyone has had their little piece of democracy, and
exercised their right to vote (or chosen not to, as the case may be), how
do we go about implementing the unification of the lists?  Isn't this a
matter for the administrators of the lists to resolve?

I say we bite the bullet and just do it!  (We can have a "confirmation"
poll in 12 months or so, just in case people change their minds and want to
revert back to the way things are now.)

PS: 63 votes from about 500 eligible voters means a 12.6% voter turnout.
This is consistent with most apathetic western societies where voting is
non-compulsory, so I wouldn't worry about the results from a statistical
point of view - 31 is the statistically significant threshold.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|               Henry Penninkilampi (htp@dove.mtx.net.au)                |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Join "EvangeList", Guy Kawasaki's (un)official Apple list-server of good|
|news about Apple, Macintosh, and third-party developers. To subscribe to|
|EvangeList, send an e-mail to: listproc@solutions.apple.com, and include|
|in the body of the message the text: Subscribe Macway <Your Name>       |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 11:49:59 -0800
From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 66% Combat?
Message-ID: <v01540a00adb16016e2bb@[137.229.100.63]>

>I find it absolutely amazing that people are griping about "gun posts" on a
>list devoted to a game written by a WARGAME DESIGNER, published by a WARGAME
>COMPANY and whose rules are at least 66% concerned with WEAPONS and
>COMBAT.  If
>you are personally offended by firearms, that's your business, but given the
>number of different people making posts about firearms, its obvious that most
>people on this list have some level of interest in the subject.

What Rulesset are YOU using, Steve?

CT's basic Rules were about 33% Combat (20% personal combat, 10% ship) by
pagecount. I haven't bothered looking further than books 1-3 for this
ruleset.

MT's Breakdown:
        PM      30/102  Personal Combat                 Player's Man.
        RM      14/104  Starship Combat                 Ref's Man
        IE      7/97    Combat Equipment                Imp Encyclopedia
        RC      14/97   Large Scale Ground Combat       Ref's Companion
        RbSb    16/96   Army and Naval Strengths, and   Rebelion Sourcebook
                        an adventure that is combat oriented
        CAOCC   34/95   A-G, A-A, G-A Combat, a
                        military campaign, and guidelines
                        on aricraft and coaac warfare styles
        Total   115/591, about 20%

        BscRls  51/303  about 16%, counts only the basic set: PM, RM, and IE

TNE: Second Printing (Mk1Md1) Rulebook
        75/394pp  covers quite a bit of stuff. (most of the above topics)
        only about 19%.

I'd say that traveller is one of the LOWER percentage-wise systems for
combat rules; most games I have seen have higher percentages. And I own
QUITE a few games (well over 1 metric ton of books for RPG's alone).

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 15:49:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: guns
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960504154656.621A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Sat, 4 May 1996 t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk wrote:

> 
> Trouble is with _realistic_ guns IMHO is that:
> The players want them
> The players do not want to be shot at by them.
> If you make is *easier* to kill with a gun, then the character turnover rate
> will be quicker, less chance of getting attached to the charactrs etc.

	If the players are intelligent, the increased turnover rate will 
only be a short-term phenominon.  Eventually, they will realize it if 
gunfights are necessary it is best to fight intelligently.  They will 
also realize that a lot of gunfights are NOT necessary.
	'Course, if your players thrive on battle and are completely 
uninterested in the other aspects of the game, then you are correct and 
it is a bad idea to introduce realistic combat.

-Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 679
***************************
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 680
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Status: U

			    TRAVELLER Digest 680

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 679
	by Random Encounter <jonimv@evitech.fi>
  2) Re: Realistic Guns
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
  3) Galactic 2.0 now available via FTP
	by Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
  4) Guns and PCs
	by Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
  5) Re: Gauss wepons/Mass drivers
	by jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
  6) Combat, Guns & Death
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 17:18:27 +0200 (EET)
From: Random Encounter <jonimv@evitech.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 679
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960505170910.29453A-100000@evitech.evitech.fi>

I think that Traveller IS combat oriented game. It just have this kind of 
feel. Why do you think that there are so many weapons and tanks etc.? Why 
there are no rules for research (except for surveys)? Because at least in 
TNE every PC is supposed to be some kind of killer. And to my knowledge 
CT was originally a mercenary game. NOTE! I don't mean that I don't like 
combat oriented games, I do but don't tell me that Traveller is less 
combat oriented than other SF games.

As someone pointed out realistic combat system (like Millenium's End) 
combined with guidelines to strategies and tactics is better than low 
lethal system. You can run military scenarios using realistic game system 
with even better results than with low lethal system. Of course you can't 
make those cinematic stunts with it. But if you want stand and fight 
combats then it's your choice.


"I'll be bag"
-Arnie the Alligator

Joni Virolainen
jonimv@evitech.fi



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 09:44:23 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Realistic Guns
Message-ID: <52CF54245B@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk says:

>Trouble is with _realistic_ guns IMHO is that:
>The players want them
>The players do not want to be shot at by them.
>If you make is *easier* to kill with a gun, then the character
>turnover rate will be quicker, less chance of getting attached to the
>charactrs etc.

	Actually that's only true for the first couple of 
characters...after that the players figure out that guns are 
dangerous things, and should be a last resort, not first.  Of course, 
as GM in such a game, you have to remember that as well.  You can't 
just throw NPC's in the mold of spaghetti western bad guys at the 
party.

	Either a game is cinematic or realistic...as long as both sides of 
the equation play by the same rules (GM and players) everythng works 
out ok, it's just that different styles of play are enforced.


	
Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 11:08:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Galactic 2.0 now available via FTP
Message-ID: <199605051808.LAA17113@e2.empirenet.com>

>From the mail I've been getting, it looks like about half the
people who are trying to download Galactic v2.0 from my homepage
have run into various problems (the most common one being netscape
timing out after 300k or so). So, I just got the program up on an
ftp site (with the help of Juha Juuso Vesanto). It is currently at:

ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/doc/games/roleplay/programs/mapping/gal20.zip

Actually, the transfer between California and Finland was pretty
darn speedy this time, so you may want to give it a whirl. For those
who missed it the first time, this is a very brief run-down of the
program:

        PROGRAM NAME: "GALACTIC" [v2.0] {May 1996}
        GAME SYSTEM: Traveller/MegaTraveller
        AUTHOR: Jim Vassilakos  (jimv@empirenet.com)
        FUNCTION: Sector Viewer/Generator
        OPERATING SYSTEM: IBM (MS-DOS)
	      (but windows will also run dos-applications)
        COMMENTS: Allows user to randomly generate sectors, displays
	      the maps in VGA, translates the UWP code to English,
	      and keeps campaign notes in text files which can be
	      accessed directly from the map. The maps all mesh
	      seemlessly. Thirteen Classic Traveller sectors are
	      included complete with jump routes. Several world
	      write-ups by Rob Dean also included. Contains enough
	      online help that it can be used by someone who has
	      never before played Traveller and is just getting
	      into it. Note, you must use "-d" option when unzipping:

                  >>>>>>>>    pkunzip -d gal20.zip    <<<<<<<<


           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@cs.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@empirenet.com
              U         San Bernardino, California

PS: If you have trouble getting it, unzipping it, or whatever,
    let me know. I'll be all too happy to postal you a floppy.


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 11:26:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Guns and PCs
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.91.960505111318.13749A-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>

t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk wrote:
> Trouble is with _realistic_ guns IMHO is that:
> The players want them
> The players do not want to be shot at by them.
> If you make is *easier* to kill with a gun, then the character turnover rate
> will be quicker, less chance of getting attached to the charactrs etc.

He who lives by the sword shall perish by the sword.

In another RPG I enjoy, Call of Cthulhu, there's an informal maxim that if
you're shooting at the enemy, you're probably already doomed. 

In my view, having the PCs afraid of being shot at is a Good Thing.  Far 
too many campaigns have the PCs reaching for their guns as the first 
approach to solving a problem, while more realistically this will be (for 
rational characters) the last resort, given how likely *they* are to get 
killed once the bullets are flying.

Realistic guns on both sides, PC and NPC, force players to do two things:

(1) Avoid combat whenever possible.
(2) When combat becomes inevitable, give consideration to tactics (cover,
    surprise, positional advantages) which will let them give better than
    they get.

To my way of thinking, getting players to approach combat in this way is 
highly desirable.  Of course, if you're running a space-opera style 
campaign, your considerations will be entirely different.  My favorite 
example of the latter style comes in "Return of the Jedi", during the 
battle outside the Imperial station on Endor.  Guys in bulky white combat 
armor die by the score with every from-the-hip shot by a rebel -- then 
when Leia gets hit by a Trooper, she grabs her shoulder and pouts a 
little.  Her dress must be made of that new combat-armor-grade silk...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

Date: 	Mon, 06 May 1996 00:06:24 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Gauss wepons/Mass drivers
Message-ID: <318d1edd.14544497@mail.Direct.CA>

On Fri, 3 May 1996 16:26:45 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:

=> While segmenting and switching the field could help power consumption
=> on a rail gun, it would *greatly* increase the complexity, and increase
=> the chance of failure.
=> 
=> The rail gun design is suited to military use *because* it is so
=> simple. And the fact that it doesn't scale up well is irrelevant for
=> man portable weapons. 

I'm not so sure about "simple technology" being the way of the future's military
forces.  Even today we rely almost too much on technology to fight our battles
(ie: night vision, smart bombs, stealth technology, Global Positioning
Satellites, etc.).  It might be more accurate to say that field repairs will not
resort to actual the *repair* of such systems but the *replacement* of specific
component systems.  Today's automotive field certainly reflects this (Ford just
released a non-servicable transmission).  And if you are paying any attention to
the Battle Dress threads, our future in military technology is only going to get
more complicated (as will are dependence on said technology).

=> With "room temp" superconductors or advanced high field permanent
=> magnets you could have the magnetic field using *no* power. So you just
=> need a power supply that can throw enough current into the rails. 

This is true to a point.  The kinetic energy available to such a projectile at
the muzzle of the weapon can never be greater that the energy put into the
weapon in the first place or we'll have perpetual energy machines all over the
place  8^)

jlindsay@direct.ca      Vancouver, British Columbia

"Always keep enough cash in your bank account for a
 tutu and a high-powered rifle"  <<<JL: 04-04-96>>>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 11:06:23 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Combat, Guns & Death
Message-ID:  <9605061106.aa03510@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

    Here is my oppinion about this whole thread:
1.) About discussion of weapons: I think it would be much more interesting
    to hear about the muzzle velocity, ROF and weight of the weapons, than
    to hear the oppinions of people that heard oppinions of other people
    about that weapon (sorry)
2.) About aiming with automatic fire. It is logical, that the first round
    in an autofire burst can be aimed as good as a single shot, with the
    other rounds being bonus. I usually say the first round is fired as
    if it was fired as a normal semi automatic shot, for the second one
    the recoil for autofire is used to determine hit chance, and for the
    others the difficulty increases by one level for each round until
    "Impossible" is reached. Also if someone lays fire on the same area
    for a full turn, this counts as a turn of aiming and difficulty is
    changed to "Formidable". (I also use tables to determine the number
    of hits, because I was bored by that huge ammount of die rolling.
    If someone is interested, I've made one up for 3,5 and 10 round bursts.
    Just roll one die for every burst. It produces (almost, within 5%)
    the same results as the original rules.)
3.) About deadliness. I think TNE has one of the deadliest and most
    unpredictable combat systems. I just remember a STR A, CON 8 PC dying
    after that little pistol(Damage 1) hit him in the Torso. He did not
    wore any body armor because he said "I don't need body armor, I am
    tough !". For all Gamemasters that want deadly combat, never forget
    the Quick Kill rule! Even if only the double damage rule is used,
    a Damage 1 hit in the head can cause a PC with CON 10 to be knocked
    unconcious (Outstanding success, damage 2, 10% chance for quick kill,
    if successful 4 dice of damage, average 14, min 4, max 24. Unlikely
    but possible)

Thomas Kathmann

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 680
***************************
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 681
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Status: U

			    TRAVELLER Digest 681

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Combat, Guns & Death
	by t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 17:22:36 +0100 (BST)
From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Combat, Guns & Death
Message-ID: <S9605061622.AA01730@sysa.abdn.ac.uk>


You use d6's for your weapons?
Thats why they're unrealistic, try d10's.

Another thing.
Is there anywhere rules for designing aqua-space craft.
These would be stressed to withstand high undersea pressures and vacuum of space
They would have to have underwater propulsion systems as part of the ship.
Reason why not:
Terrans have a lot of land, therefore the writers do not deem underwater
propulsion as a viable part of a space ship, but think about it.
The advantages of a dual sub/space ship are endless.
You do not need to 'take off' from the area of your base.
Fuel is all around you.
Most will possibly be armed with torpedoes (underwater), laser/ missile turrets
(for space) and meson cannon (for both).

Are there any other considerations to take care of?
The possibilities of ice freezing over a streamlined/ Airframe ship would have
to be taken care of.
IMHO a aqua ship would be an ideal system patrol boat.
It can easily hide.
The base can be easily hidden.
It will be able to be refuled.
Armed with a meson gun, it can fire undetected from mid ocean, and move away.
Placed on a planet with a low TL (post collapse) with tribes, on scattered
islands, such an operation would easily avoid detection.

The ship would have to be laid out differently.
Go on! Design me a ship (max 350 tonnes).

:)

One other application.
Fighters could possibly also be made to be aqua-fighters, though the ice
build up would severely create a problem here.

Is this a possible option?


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 681
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 682

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Aqua/space craft	by Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
  2) Gunning for starships or starfish?	by David Reed <nacht@neosoft.com>
  3) Re: Gunning for starships or starfish?	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  4) Re: Gunning for starships or starfish?	by Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
  5) TNE: Scout Walk-about Suit	by lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
  6) I'm looking for something...	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
  7) Tech in Trav4	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
  8) ADMIN: Move Day	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  9) Re: Tech in Trav4	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
 10) Re: Combining the Lists.	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
 11) Re: Aqua/space craft	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
 12) Re: Combining the Lists.	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
 13) Re: TRAVELLER digest 681	by Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
 14) Formulas for gunfreaks	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 09:40:08 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Aqua/space craft
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960507134008.006caa0c@pop.ma.ultranet.com>

>Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 17:22:36 +0100 (BST)
>From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
>Another thing.
>Is there anywhere rules for designing aqua-space craft.
>These would be stressed to withstand high undersea pressures and vacuum of
>space
>They would have to have underwater propulsion systems as part of the ship.
   Standard streamlined spacecraft with Thruster Plates will do quite nicely.

[snip]
>IMHO a aqua ship would be an ideal system patrol boat.
>It can easily hide.
>The base can be easily hidden.
>It will be able to be refuled.
>Armed with a meson gun, it can fire undetected from mid ocean, and move away.
>Placed on a planet with a low TL (post collapse) with tribes, on scattered
>islands, such an operation would easily avoid detection.

  This is an old CT tactic.

Ice buildup?  Why operate out the North Atlantic when you can operate in the
deep waters near Hawaii?  :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:03:09 -0500
From: David Reed <nacht@neosoft.com>
To: "'traveller@mpgn.com'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Gunning for starships or starfish?
Message-ID: <01BB3BFC.6A693DE0@scooter-ppp-dc.NeoSoft.com>


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB3BFC.6ACDF320
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In another life <t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk> scribbled:
> You use d6's for your weapons?
> Thats why they're unrealistic, try d10's.

Heh.  Why not d20s (since they're already on the table for to-hit anyway)?  Let's make it really realistic...

BTW, has anyone else experienced confusion about the variable settings for chemical cartridge
lasers?  I had a PC literally flame an entire NPC platoon with about half a magazine from a CLC rifle.  
Of course, he was a little lucky with the autofire rolls, but...  I need to rethink the way it works.  The
lethality was high because the targets were unarmored, and now the whole team wants to carry
nothing else...  (This could go badly for the players when I insert armored foes...  *evil cackle*)
 
> Another thing.
> Is there anywhere rules for designing aqua-space craft.
> These would be stressed to withstand high undersea pressures and vacuum of space
> They would have to have underwater propulsion systems as part of the ship.
> Reason why not:
> Terrans have a lot of land, therefore the writers do not deem underwater
> propulsion as a viable part of a space ship, but think about it.
> The advantages of a dual sub/space ship are endless.
> You do not need to 'take off' from the area of your base.
> Fuel is all around you.
> Most will possibly be armed with torpedoes (underwater), laser/ missile turrets
> (for space) and meson cannon (for both).

Ummm...  I was under the impression that streamlined starships were by definition undersea
beasties, capable of refueling while submerged, etc.  Would the structural elements really be that
different?  Especially when the bulkheads of an "armored" starship are designed to take re-entry,
combat damage, etc.?
 
> Are there any other considerations to take care of?
> The possibilities of ice freezing over a streamlined/ Airframe ship would have
> to be taken care of.

De-icing is a thought...  But if we're using contra-grav, what difference does our "real" aerodynamic
profile make?  (I feel an eerie deja-vu that we're about to re-enter the flamewar over C-G again...  Duck!)

> IMHO a aqua ship would be an ideal system patrol boat.
> It can easily hide.
> The base can be easily hidden.
> It will be able to be refuled.
> Armed with a meson gun, it can fire undetected from mid ocean, and move away.
> Placed on a planet with a low TL (post collapse) with tribes, on scattered
> islands, such an operation would easily avoid detection.

I vaguely remember some CT stuff that had SDBs which used similar tactics...  But for RC operations,
it sounds even better...  Reminds me of all those old Star Blazers, Voltron, and company cartoons...  Does
anybody still air them?
 
> The ship would have to be laid out differently.

Why?

> Go on! Design me a ship (max 350 tonnes).
> 
> :)
> 
> One other application.
> Fighters could possibly also be made to be aqua-fighters, though the ice
> build up would severely create a problem here.

Due to smaller size maybe, but the thrust-to-weight for fighters is usually higher, so why
would ice be a problem for a spaceship?
 
> Is this a possible option?

Sure!  I even think I'll steal the undersea theme!!!


Dave.
nacht@neosoft.com

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------------------------------

Date: 07 May 96 11:27:08 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Gunning for starships or starfish?
Message-ID: <19584727@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

--- it was written....:
Ummm...  I was under the impression that streamlined starships were by
definition undersea
beasties, capable of refueling while submerged, etc.  Would the structural
elements really be that
different?  Especially when the bulkheads of an "armored" starship are designed
to take re-entry,
combat damage, etc.?
 
--- end of quoted material ---

yeah, i thought that was one of the original premises of the 'sleeper' SDBs
hiding deep in the atmophere of gas giants(read:crushing atmospheric pressure),
waiting for hapless types to fling by...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 16:24:25 +0100
From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Gunning for starships or starfish?
Message-ID: <4729.9605071524@pcdev7.delcam.com>

David Reed writes:
> > Is there anywhere rules for designing aqua-space craft.

> Ummm...  I was under the impression that streamlined starships were
> by definition undersea beasties, capable of refueling while
> submerged, etc.  Would the structural elements really be that
> different?  Especially when the bulkheads of an "armored" starship
> are designed to take re-entry, combat damage, etc.?

>From what I remember of the 'off-the-shelf' ships from the TNE
rulebook, the main problem with the ships being submersible, assuming
the hull will hold, and HEPLAR works underwater or another propulsion
system is used, is to get it to sink in the first place.  Even the
densest of ships appear to have a loaded mass of approximatly half the
ammount of water they'd displace...

Anyone got any stats on how much volume compressors and tankage takes
up on a modern submarine, and how much buoyancy can be negated?

			Chris.






------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 May 96 13:32:02 -0400
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TNE: Scout Walk-about Suit
Message-ID: <9605071732.AA16222@chara.gsu.edu>

Hello,
	Here is a FFS design for a lightly armored suit for the Imperial
Scout Service.  I got the idea from a design in MT Journal #1
Lewis

---------------------------------------------------------------------
IISS Walkabout suit
TL 15 Light Powered Armor (Dex -0 Init -1)
SM    AV   AM     BV    BM   TM   MW  End  SMCr  AMCr   BMCr     TMCr  
.05   3  .0135  0.087 0.087 .21 .013   10 .153  .0025  .00173  .2386775
A full load of HG HCD costs 26cr.

Standard Equipment:
  Looking Glass Option
  Environmental Controls
  30km Radio
  50m NAS
  1 x Searchlight, Range 250m
  WSV (Wide Spectrum Visual) Goggles, Range 300m
Power Production:
  Fuel Cell 0.013 MW/hour.  As listed the suit requires .0118MW, which 
         leaves .0012 MW/hour for extra equipment.
  Fuel .026kl, 10 hours endurance.

The suit as listed only weighs .1917 tons, which leaves 183kg for extra 
equipment. It also has a .0012 MW/hour power surplus. Scouts often use  
this to carry extra sensor equipment, biological & geological samples,
oxygen tanks or random tools.  

         The Scout walkabout suit is designed to provide a mobile environment 
for IISS personal exploring new and possibly dangerous worlds.  The same 
strength enhancing powered exoskeleton used in Imperial BattleDress allows 
the user to carry a great deal of equipment.  
        The armor features looking glass capabilites to allow the user to
observe native life forms without disturbing them.  The armor has many 
power outlets to feed power to different carried devices.  It also has
hooks so the Scout can attach and carry the devices.  

The suit was based on a design in Megatraveller Journal  #1


------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 7 May 1996 16:24:16 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: I'm looking for something...
Message-ID: <351110274FE@daisy.le.ac.uk>

I've been trying to get hold of a copy of some file called 
VBRUN200.DLL so that I could get some nice program operating.  I 
downloaded it off CompuServe but they didn't have a copy of the file. 
 You never know, but one of you people might have programed it... any 
help here?

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "We dream of consciousness?"

------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 7 May 1996 16:28:20 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Tech in Trav4
Message-ID: <351223748DF@daisy.le.ac.uk>

At last!

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "We dream of consciousness?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 14:23:50 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: ADMIN: Move Day
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960507182350.006ee6ac@central.TanSoft.COM>

MPG-Net is moving several components from the New York office to the Key
West office.  Part of this involves moving ftp.mpgn.com, which also
processes the mailing list.

The physical move of this machine is still a couple of weeks off, but to
prepare for it, we are moving the mailing list to a machine in Key West much
sooner, like tomorrow (5/8).  This is in conjuction with changing from
Listproc to Majordomo as well.  This will hopefully solve some of the
reoccuring problems like having everyone on the list postponed, or people
being removed every Friday because of a bounce.

Here is what is going to happen.  Tomorrow morning, we will shut listproc
down for a couple of hours and move the subscriber database, converting it
to a majordomo format.  The aliases will be adjusted so that mail to:
traveller@mpgn.com and xboat@mpgn.com will go to the majordomo version.  At
that point we will be up on majordomo.  We will restart listproc, and let
the partial digest expire and be sent out.  So you may get two partial
digests tomorrow or Thursday.

Posting messages will not change.  You will continue to post to
traveller@mpgn.com and xboat@mpgn.com.  What will change is administrative
options.  If you are digest and want to go to instant, you send a subscribe
message to traveller-request@mpgn.com, and send a unsubscribe request to
traveller-digest-request@mpgn.com.

Digests will have a slightly different format, and will have a different
file name in the archive . . . Which brings up the archive:  Since
ftp.mpgn.com is a couple of weeks from being here, we will go ahead and
archive the messages.  You  can do a majordomo get to retrive them.  When
ftp.mpgn.com arrives, we will load the digests to that machine and away we go.

With any luck, this should be fairly seemless to you and things should run a
bit smoother.

Rob
Rob Miracle
Co-Admin ftp.mpgn.com         | Admin Traveller/Xboat Mailing List
ftp-maint@mpgn.com            | traveller-request@mpgn.com
xboat-request@mpgn.com


------------------------------

Date: 07 May 96 14:42:21 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Tech in Trav4
Message-ID: <19594256@cupid.Dartmouth.EDU>

what is he on about?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 15:58:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Combining the Lists.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960507154104.27150A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>


	Hi all.  Following the results of the survey on the future of
TML/XTML, several people have called for the unification of all lists into
one.  This was the option that clearly won in the survey (somewhat to my
disappointment, but hey that's the democratic process...) and people seem
to want to get this going now. When I started the survey, my idea was that
this was simply an opinion poll.  I was not thinking that the results
would be implemented right away.  I would like to wait for NT to come out,
and run another poll at that time to confirm opinions.  Following this, we
could change/combine the lists. I'm pretty sure Rob Miracle is not going 
to change anything before then in any case.
	While I'm on the topic, I would like to re-iterate my strong 
support for some system of rules to be implemented if we have one big 
list.  I'm not expecting Rob Miracle to censor the list or anything.  The 
rules would be informally enforced.  Whenever anyone signed up to the 
list, they'd get a note outlining the "netiquette" of the TML/XTML.  
Offenders would simply recieve notes from list members reminding them of 
the guidelines (I would do it, and others who get peaved by this sort of 
thing would probably do so as well.).  Repeat offenders might be dealt 
with more harshly, especially if they engaged in frequent flamewars.  
Here again is the list of rules I would recommend.  Anyone want to add 
to/subtract from/modify this?

>1. All messages would be clearly labelled as to which game versions they
>applied to.  A prefix system might be one way to do it:  CT/MT, TNE, NT, or
>ALL would go before the message title.
>
>2. All messages would have to have a title.  No more "Re: Traveller
>Digest 666" or similar vague subject lines.
>
>3. Quoting previous messages would be limited.  No more pasting in 5
>generations of replies on a particular topic.
>
>4. Any message which was over a particular length would be labelled as
>LONG in the title.
>
>5. Flame wars would be quickly extinguished or moved to personal email
>addresses.

Ciao for now,
Charles.
	
PS. I think newbies to the list should recieve the URL for the mailing
list FAQ if they don't already, and also a URL for some sort of "History
of Traveller Game Versions" (I know there's at least one out there, 
though I can't remember where).


<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 22:13:18 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Aqua/space craft
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960508041318.006c7b08@mail.usa.net>

At 09:41 am 5/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 17:22:36 +0100 (BST)
>>From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
>>Another thing.
>>Is there anywhere rules for designing aqua-space craft.
>>These would be stressed to withstand high undersea pressures and vacuum of
>>space
>>They would have to have underwater propulsion systems as part of the ship.
>   Standard streamlined spacecraft with Thruster Plates will do quite nicely.
>
>[snip]
>>IMHO a aqua ship would be an ideal system patrol boat.
>>It can easily hide.
>>The base can be easily hidden.
>>It will be able to be refuled.
>>Armed with a meson gun, it can fire undetected from mid ocean, and move away.
>>Placed on a planet with a low TL (post collapse) with tribes, on scattered
>>islands, such an operation would easily avoid detection.
>
>  This is an old CT tactic.
>
>Ice buildup?  Why operate out the North Atlantic when you can operate in the
>deep waters near Hawaii?  :-)

        Because if you restrict where you operate, you make yourself easier
to find and target?
--________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 22:13:20 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Combining the Lists.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960508041320.006ad618@mail.usa.net>

At 03:59 pm 5/7/96 -0400, Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:
        /* snip */
>	While I'm on the topic, I would like to re-iterate my strong 
>support for some system of rules to be implemented if we have one big 
>list.  I'm not expecting Rob Miracle to censor the list or anything.  The 
        /* snip */
>Here again is the list of rules I would recommend.  Anyone want to add 
>to/subtract from/modify this?

        Some more comments on quotes. Not necessarily rules, just highly
encouraged reminders. In addition to limiting the number of generations of
quotes in a single message:

        *Don't* quote an entire 150 line message. Period. Excerpt enough of
the parts to which you're replying to clearly identify them, and that's it.
We all got the original message the first time, or we can get it if we want it.

        *Don't* quote the original author's 12 line signature and/or witty
comments. His/her name's enough.

        *Don't* quote a message just to say "me too"

        Also, in addition to the Web version of the FAQ, maybe we could have
a monthly posting of a shortened FAQ, referring to the Web version _and_
reiterating the commonly-accepted norms (call them rules if you wish) for
participation in the list.
--________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 17:51:59 -0800
From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 681
Message-ID: <318FFE3F.A04@concentric.net>

>> You use d6's for your weapons?
Thats why they're unrealistic, try d10's. <<

Too true.  Two adventures ago in my campaign, I instituted the D10/quick 
kill rules, and TNE has reached the correct level of lethality.

--Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 08:23:15 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Formulas for gunfreaks
Message-ID: <v02140b04adb6171aaa7a@[130.238.188.224]>

Some formulas for use when making better gundesign rules than FF&S
especially concerning penetration. Pen rules in FF&S is a joke IMHO.
The formulas below should not necessary be used as other factors such as
ground plane reflection for explosives and relative hardness of projectile
and armor for low velocity rounds change the rules a bit.

Formula for pressure from explosion:

p = k * ((E^2)^(1/3))/(r^2)

p: pressure from explosive
k: a constant that has to be determined by you
E: Energy of explosive, could be TNT-equivs, Mega Joules etc
r: Distance from center of explosion

This formula assumes air as medium of propagation and that the charge is
hanging in midair ie no reflections from the groundplane. The hot fumes
produced by the explosive itself decreases exponentially and might be the
reason why almost all "serious" rpg have blast effects decreasing
exponentially.

b = k1 * e^(-k2 * r)
b: Blast effect, mainly the temperature of the gasses.
k1: A constant
k2: Also a constant.

Formula for penetration of KE projectile including bullets:

d = (m^(1/2) * v/(k * c^(0.75)))^(0.7)

d: Penetration in dm (1 dm = 0.1 m)
m: Mass of projectile in kg
c: Caliber of projectile in dm
v: Velocity of projectile at impact in m/s, not necessarily the same as muzzle v
k: An empirical factor measured to k=2000 - 2500 for solid armor piercing
rounds and k=1400 - 1800 for hard core projectiles.

I myself use the formula
d = k * m * v / (c^2)
With the same types of units as above but another k of course.

The above formulaes excpet the last one are derived from:
Rheinmetall Handbook on Weaponry, a 750 page book on gundesign, testing and
evaluation.

/Backman



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 682
***************************
			    TRAVELLER Digest 683

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Aqua/space craft	by Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
  2) Binaries on TML	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  3) Re: Aqua/space craft	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  4) Re: TRAVELLER digest 681	by paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
  5) Equations for projectiles	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 12:53:37 +0200
From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Aqua/space craft
Message-ID: <31907D31.41C67EA6@ifi.uio.no>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> >Is there anywhere rules for designing aqua-space craft.
> >They would have to have underwater propulsion systems as part of the ship.
> Standard streamlined spacecraft with Thruster Plates will do quite nicely.
> 
Funny, one of my players asked me this last night, but we play using HEPlaR.
How would this type of engine do underwater, can they be used to create propultion
under water?

I figure that an output that creates a pressure higher thab the waterpressure would
at least keep water out. I guess that propultion would woork also but would that 
leave a rather distinct heattrack from the vaporized water.

Any comments ?

-- 
---------------------------
Tommy Grav         | tommyg@ifi.uio.no
University in Oslo | <A HREF=http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html> The Terran
Confederation </A>
Norway             |        No qoute yet.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:39:32 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Binaries on TML
Message-ID: <v02140b01adb65373e1bd@[130.238.188.224]>

To Dave.nacht@neosoft.com and anybody else on the list.
NO BINARIES ON THE LIST
Use e-mail and/or ftp for that.

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:44:46 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Aqua/space craft
Message-ID: <v02140b02adb6548a2351@[130.238.188.224]>

>>Ice buildup?  Why operate out the North Atlantic when you can operate in the
>>deep waters near Hawaii?  :-)
>
>        Because if you restrict where you operate, you make yourself easier
>to find and target?

Ice buildup? Water gets most dense at +4 degrees centrigrade so if your
oceans aren't deepfrozen no ice will form on the SDB/sub unless you surface
often.
If you surface often in a warsituation the ice will be melted off by your
enemys lasers as they vaporize you :)

/Backman



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:32:47 +0000
From: paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 681
Message-ID: <v01510106adb63e2028ce@[128.243.213.247]>


>From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk

>You use d6's for your weapons?
>Thats why they're unrealistic, try d10's.

Thats what happens when you go off to aberdeen. You don't get to hear that
our group already does that, or did. I got the idea from this list.

Now i use another system. To make things a little more worrying, i do not
use the hit location chart anymore with the exception of being hit by
autofire and with precise aiming into various body locations. Generally (
and i think this is true in real life, tell me otherwise if i am wrong) a
person shooting at another will tend to instinctively shoot at the chest
and abdomen as it is presents the largest target with a higher probability
of hits, with greater chance of incapacitating or killing. Professional
users of firearms are tought to 'double tap' targets in the chest for good
reason.

Thus in Traveller (and i am talking TNE) most combats tend to involve a lot
of chest damage. I've found my players starting to worry about the damage
they are receiving now its hits almost entirely to the body area.


>Is there anywhere rules for designing aqua-space craft.

I believe that traveller space craft are capable of operating in water to
some extent. Underwater SDB bases for instance, and most atmosphere capable
ships can certainly land in water (see one of the MT book covers...can't
remember which one it was) which aids ocean refuelling when land masses are
scarce.

I do not know how well HEPLAR (TNE) drives will function under water, but
i'm sure MT thruster plates would perform adequately.

To arm a star ship with torpedos would be silly IMHO. A starship has a
primary role for interplanetary or interstellar operations. The torpedos
would be wasteful on internal volume. Better to fit more useful equipment.
Fitting of torpedo's, a fairly antiquated technology at TL-10+ is best
assigned to purpose built submersibles. Submarines would make useful
planetary defense role is carrying a meson weapon or PDM's.



>The ship would have to be laid out differently.
>Go on! Design me a ship (max 350 tonnes).

Erm... see the Shukugan (Dragon) class SDB in Brilliant Lances but thats
400 tons i'm afraid.

:)



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul "Lynx" Radford          | paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk
Department Of Immunology     | No web page :(
Queens Medical Centre        |
Nottingham                   | BITS Member, TCS: 47th Raider Squadron
England                      | MI (UK): Lynx, Acolyte of Shroud & SSS member
(+44) 0115 9249924 ext 43494 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 10:12:16 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Equations for projectiles
Message-ID: <30BCC165EB@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

Backman sez:

>Formula for penetration of KE projectile including bullets:
>
>d = (m^(1/2) * v/(k * c^(0.75)))^(0.7)
>
>d: Penetration in dm (1 dm = 0.1 m)
>m: Mass of projectile in kg
>c: Caliber of projectile in dm
>v: Velocity of projectile at impact in m/s, not necessarily the same
>as muzzle v k: An empirical factor measured to k=2000 - 2500 for solid
>armor piercing rounds and k=1400 - 1800 for hard core projectiles.

	d: Penetration...of what? Wood, Sand, Metal, Ballistic gel?  It 
makes a BIG difference!

	Otherwise, nice post..this gives us some real-world (TM) figures to 
play with. 

	NOW maybe I can show correctly that that $#@!%@ sniper rifle in POT 
is about 7 times too heavy!

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 683
***************************
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From: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #684
Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com


Traveller-digest      Friday, November 22 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 684



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: 15mm Miniatures
Re: House Rule: Military Intel
Moved Core subsector.
Re: Where to send E-Mail to Imperium Games
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Uplifting Roos
Re: Solomani Geneered Critters
Re: Gravitics
Re: Gravitics
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Theta Borealis
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Solomani Generred Critters 
Gravitics in the news
Re: Dogs' flexible genetic structure 
Re: A scary thought...
Re: Solomani Generred Critters 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:18:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Bill Hutchinson <hbill@primenet.com>
Subject: RE: 15mm Miniatures

I put a order in for a pack at a game store here
in Tucson today.
The only bad thing is Two to four weeks.


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hbill                                     __  __     ____  ___       ___ ____
hbill@primenet.com                       /__)/__) / / / / /_  /\  / /_    /
                                        /   / \  / / / / /__ /  \/ /___  /-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:16:47 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Military Intel

- ----------
> From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: House Rule: Military Intel
> Date: Thursday, November 21, 1996 1:47 PM
> 
> I've recently added a house rule to my campaign that I thought you might
be
> interested in.  I trust my players a fair amount, and so far, no one has
> taken advantage of this rule.  I allow Army Navy and Marine characters to
> transfer to the Agent career in T4, so long as they pass the enlistment
roll
> (1 attempt per year.)  They retain their rank (unlike the rule in T4
about
> losing one rank when changing careers) and resolve each term (or partial
> term) on the agent career.  Rank and Mustering out are resolved per the
rules
> for the original service (after all, they never left it.)  And obviously
the
> table of ranks for Agent does not reflect Naval ranks, though I assume
they
> continue to be referred to by the appropriate (Naval) rank.


Interesting idea, Tim. 

This works because agent-types are trained to think a lot like cops do.

I'd suggest, however, that the MI characters recieve a new skill (or an old
one, depending upon how plugged into old Paranioa Press supps you are). The
skill is Intelligence Analysis (specialty: Military), which I define as the
ability to analyze data with an eye to MI value. IA(Mil) is the military
equivalent of Criminolgy (the ability to analyze crime scenes for pertinent
data).

Generic Intelligence Analysis skill might also be available to pure Agents.


The promotion scheme should work; that  I have _no_ problem with. Further,
the Retention roll should use the service table vice the Agents table.

<<deletia>>

Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:27:52 GMT
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Moved Core subsector.

>"Volker A. Greimann" wrote:>
>- -> vs. First Survey, or whether Marc will have a hand in altering anything I
>- -> don't know. I _do_ know the supposed reason behind the 'moved' Core
>- -> subsector in the T4 book but I don't think Marc wants this public 
>- -> knowledge yet.
>
>So what is the reasoning?
>An alternate Universe?
>Real Movement of Stars?
>Invalidate all old stuff, so some suckers will have to buy the new 
>books just to keep updated?

        I have not received my T4 copy, so all I know of the new version has
been learned in the TML. Forgive me if I am way off base, but I really do
not know if the "moved stars" stuff refers to a dramatical change or
something minor. Is it possible that the way of dividing space into
subsectors at Milieu 0 was different, so the whole map is displaced, or the
changes in T4 are of relative position between specific stars?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:36:26 GMT
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Where to send E-Mail to Imperium Games

>"Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:

>As noted on the first page of IG's web site, if you want to drop them an 
>email note, the address to send to is: sweetpea10@msn.com

        I don't want to be dull, but that address would be more helpful if
they ever answer to the messages. I tried several times, and still no response.

Carlos.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 05:05:57 -0500
From: Michael Nutt <misha@crossrds.com>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I wrote:

>> Well, if your ship is ever intended to enter atmosphere at any significant
>> speed, I'd highly recommend the "horizontal" orientation to seriously
>> decrease drag forces. That always seemed to me to be the obvious answer. If
>> you don't plan for it to ever enter atmosphere, well, design it however you
>> want. I also never really worried too much about the size of any of the
>> components requiring a particular orientation, either.

>"Vertical" ships won't be landing horizontally like the shuttle.
>They'll be coming in tail first like the DC-X. And sitting down under
>power, "jets" first. Takes less time, and less space. Also tends to
>discourage folks from boobytrapping the landing area if you have a
>reaction drive. :-)

All the way from orbit? You're going to have to enter atmosphere *sometime,
and unless you spend an awful lot of time braking before then, you'll have a
lot of velocity still built up when you hit air. Also, when leaving, it
helps to have wings and airframe to generate lift to help you out of atmosphere.

I always kept the assumption that the thruster plates put out enough heat
that it was unhealthy to be too close to the landing spot. OK, battle-dress
Marines could manage it, but anyone with less protection better dig a big
damned hole!

>> Honestly, I never anticipated much likelihood of the artificial gravity
>> crapping out *and* the maneuver drive continuing to function. I'd think a
>> safety interlock would be fairly easy to build in, just to cover that
>> possibility.

>That safety interlock could lose you the *ship* rather than just some
>unlucky passengers and crew. Since the failure is most likely to be
>combat damage, it means that a g-comp hit stops the ship. Not something
>most folks want!

<grin> It doesn't stop it... it just keeps it from *accelerating*. And if
you're getting whomped on so badly that you've lost internal gravity, you're
in deep kimchee anyway, and should probably be considering surrender at that
point anyway.

Anyway, how *likely* is it that a ship will get hit badly enough to take out
the internal gravity, and still have a functioning power plant *and*
maneuver drive? I don't remember anything like that in any starship combat
table, although I stopped with MT/High Guard, so if it *does* come up in FFS
or something, well, never mind.  :)

Couldn't you also build a safety interlock that prevented a hit from taking
out the grav all over the ship? "Redundant controls", or something like that?

>> One other point that *does* come up, though... do you *want* to have to
>> either take an elevator/lift or a flight of stairs in order to get around
>> any more than you have to? I mean, it seems much more convenient to just
>> walk down the corridor to any other part of the ship, rather than having to
>> take a turbolift everywhere. This would also seem to argue for a
>> "horizontal" orientation, too.

>Do you *want* to have to go thru a bunch of pressure doors instead?
>Regardless of *how* you lay out the ship, you need to have it
>sectionalized for pressure. That way if you get a hole punched in the
>hull, you only lose pressure in *part* of the ship. And you want to
>keep the sections moderately small. So those corridors will have
>hatches every 10 meters of so. Hatches that are either normally closed,
>or automatically closing in case of pressure loss (and probably
>automatically closed when you are at battle stations as well).

Every 10 meters? Good God, Leonard, you must be part owner of a hatch and
iris valve manufacturing company!!   :)

Seriously, though... yes, compartmentalization is a Good Thing. Especially
for warships, but *some* degree is necessary for all ships, unless you're
criminally stupid. Still, in everyday operations, the horizontal layout
seems more efficient. I'm minded of a mortgage company I used to work for,
that had their own building, and different functions spread over all eight
floors. We spent as much time waiting for elevators as we did doing anything
else that might have required going to see anyone else.

Michael
"When the foolkiller comes around, we'd better ALL hide in the high grass!"

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 96  9:52:11 EST
From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Subject: Uplifting Roos

>Dogs are domesticated trainable animals.
  Were they 300,000 years ago when the Ancients were about?
If they were, it is only likely that they were in, guess where,
Australia! The Australians have the oldest continuous culture
ever found. They just had to push it back to 30,000 years
(See article on Rainbow Serpet in New Scientist about 3 weeks ago).
  This still isn't near the required 300,000 for The Ancients but
it beats the hell out of western europe.

>Methinks it would be very very VERY VERY expensive to uplift an animal, and 
>probably time consuming. 
    Kangaroos are already upright, and already have manipulative members.
Seems like this would be a much better head-start than any extra "social
insticts" that dogs might have.

>You don't do it because it would be neat.
    Um, if we were talking about a corporation or an enterprise then this would
be applicable. However we are talking about one, or a very small collection,
of individuals. For someone who thinks it is fun to move planets around the
place, pinch off pocket universes, etc, etc, I'm willing to grant the 
possibility
that they might uplift a parmecium because they thought it was neat.

  However, in the end, the facts of the matter are quite simple. The ancients 
chose
dogs for uplifting because _Marc Miller_ thought it was neat.

      Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:58:06 GMT
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Solomani Geneered Critters

lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:

>In Solomani&Aslan, it mentions that the Solomani have uplifted numerous
>species. I forget the exact number but it was over 20. (I think)  
>I have always wondered which species these were.
>S&A mentions Chimpanzes, gorillas, gibbons, orangatans.  Dolphins were

        I think simians could count as a single species if you want room for
more. Sea lions and the like should be included, both for the potential
intelligence (number of brain circunvolutions and proportion brain/body) and
for their utility (planets with useful oceans)

>mentioned in an old JTAS article. Orcas (killer whales) were mentioned
>in some MT and TNE stuff; they are found only on Suffren/Diaspora. Are

        Yes, precisely the system where Sternmetal experimented with the
Roughneck-class fuel harvester in Hard Times, a ship which seems to be based
on a whale... curious.

>there any other mentions of uplifted species in canon?

>I assumed that dogs were uplifted, I started to write up rules for
>mastiffs used as security troops, but never got around to it.  Micheal

        The Ancients did that and the result was the Vargr, so probably the
Solomani will be very cautious when trying it...

>Barry came up with the Roos.  I thought bears would be neat, and
>probably some cat form would make sense. 

        Although based on *big* cats with noticeable brains... I suggest
tigers or panthers as infiltration troops (Solsec wants the money to produce
immediate results).

>Not all the species will be from earth, some will be from other
>planets.  I have an idea for an adventure based upon uplifted
>Jabberwocks, but I haven't looked at the article in JTAS in a while.  
>
>Anyone have any other ideas?

        At least one of the species should be capable of flying, because of
the utility criterion. Since there are not living flying creatures on Earth
with *big* brains, probably the Solomani would pick some from another
planet. A dinosaur-like flying critter would be a wonderful scout.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:37:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gravitics

In mail you write:

> Suppose you put large and powerful gravity generators down at the core of a
> planetoid - a 1km rock, say. Could you increase the surface gravity to a
> full G? Could you generate the required power (practically and
> economically)? What's the limit, in terms of planetoid size? 

Actually, the way gravity works (in terms of things like potential
energy, which we *do* understand) it'd be *much* easier to only
increase the gravity "locally" because the energy needed depends on the
mass involved. So the more mass you want to affect, the more power it
takes. 

> If it's practical to provide a small planetoid with a full G, would you
> then be able to synthesize a breathable atmosphere for the planetoid?
> (Obviously, you'd have to renew it from time to time, but you get the
> idea.)

There are two problems. First, you need a *deep* enough atmosphere to
supply the pressure you need. And nothing but depth will do it. So you
need enough gas for the total "column" of gas above a given point to
weigh 15 pounds per square inch. We can ignore the pressure gradient,
and just figure that based on air at normal pressure.

15 pounds = 6.804 kg 
1 sq in = 6.5416 cm^2
gives us 1.040 kg/cm^2. 

Which means you need a kilo of air for every sq cm of surface on the planetoid.

1000 cc = 1 liter. A liter of air weighs about a gram. So
1040*1000=10,400 meters. In other words, not allowing for pressure
differences, the atmosphere is 10.4 km deep. It'll actually be
noticeable at 100 km, as we all know.

> What would happen to the planetoid's orbit?

Should be unchanged, as you haven't changed it's *mass*. 

> Could you use gravitic
> generators manipulate the orbits of small asteroids and moons?

Sure. If you've got a powerplant the size of a small moon. Conservation
of energy says that no matter *how* you do it, you have to pay for it.
A good set of equations for this are the following:

F=ma  force = mass times acceleration
W=Fd  work (energy) = force times distance.

These give:

W=mad  Work = mass times acceleration times distance.

In other words the energy required is the poduct of the mass,
acceleration, and the distance for which the acceleration is applied.

For a 1 km cube of rock (assume the rock is 4 times as dense as water)
you get a mass of 4 trillion kg (4e12). So to accelerate it at 1 meter
per second per second thru a distance of one meter takes 4 million MJ. 
And each additional meter of movement takes another 4 million MJ.

> Could you use large generators to alter a planet's rate of spin - say, if
> you wanted to terraform Venus and needed to give it a shorter rotational
> period [as Pamela Sargeant suggested in her truly awful _Venus of Dreams_]?

Nope. Think about it. What are they going to push (or pull)? Also, the
energy costs are prohibitive. Venus is essentially non-rotating. To
spin it up to a 24 hr means speeding up a mass on the equator from
essentially zero to 1000 miles an hour. Call it 400 meters per second.
So for a 1 kilo mass of rock at the equator, it takes .5*1*400^2 or .08
MJ to speed it up. How many kilos of rock at the equator? And the rock
farther away from the equator or closer to the center of the planet
don't have to move as fast, but they still have to be sped up some. 
Again, you need unreasonable amounts of energy.

> I'm also curious about the behavior of grav plates: do they only affect a
> given area above the plate? Or does the effect propogate outward from the
> plate the same as natural gravity? If so, if a ship flies very close
> "above" another ship, would it be affected by the gravity fields of the
> other ship's deck plates? I would assume not - sounds too messy. My
> assumption is that there are plates in the ceiling and floor, and only the
> volume of space between them is affected.

I'd say that it's confined to an area "between" plates. And as a
"cheat" calculation, use the something like W=Mad formula from above.
So the energy required would be determined by the acceleration (one g
is 9.8 m/s^2) the distance between the plates, and the *mass* between
the plates. We need some sort of "area" term otherwise you get the
silly answer that it takes different amounts of energy for the same
ship depending on the *direction*. I'll have to try coming up with
appropriate doubketalk later.

The one "good" thing about this sort of thing is that it should require
*energy*, not *power*. In other words, once the field strength has
built up, you only have to pump in enough energy to make up for losses
in the field generators.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:28:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gravitics

In mail you write:

> It so happens I was thinking about gravitics recently when I was designing a
> Trantor-like planet (a huge enclosed giga-city covers most of the planetary
> surface).  If this city used gravitic floor plates for comfort, would they
> shield the planet's natural gravitational field? If so, its conceivable that
> with all the floor plates set to zero-G the planet's entire field could be
> screened! This strikes me as a very unplesant consequence, since the energy
> equivalent of the planet's mass (presumeably the energy needed to screen the
> field by use of 180 degree out-of-phase graviton probability waves) is given
> by E=m(c^2) and is truly astronomical!!

Nope, E=mc^2 is not the appropriate formula. Instead, the correct one
is to figure the potential energy of the gravity field. In essence, the
energy required to "de-gravitate" an object in a given gravity field is
the same amount that is required to boost it to escape velocity!

Still a large number, but more workable.

The bit with "paired plates" for a "contained" zero-g area would likely
be that you have to put that much energy into the "floor" plate, but
you get it back from the "ceiling" plate. Minus losses.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:34:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:

> While on the surface, the logic that a 'vertical' ship is superior to a
> 'horizontal' ship appears sound, remember, we are dealing with much more
> than a single acceleration vector in combat.  If we only consider a ship
> as it applies acceleration in a single, simple vector (ie. straight
> ahead), then the 'vertical' design is sound.  But, when you consider a 6G
> ship, in a missile and laser combat, where manuever/evade is being used
> (even tho' it was dropped from fleet level play, I tend to believe that
> the concept carries through for the purposes of this debate), we are
> dealing with vectors being applied, literally in every direction.  While a
> smaller ship may be able to twist around and provide 'banking', the very
> act of swinging a large (say a Tigress class dreadnaught) warship will
> create additional vectors within the ship.  (For a demonstation, try
> riding the centerfuge at almost any carnival).  But even so, when the
> computer is adding random vectors, to throw of targeting computers, or
> applying massive vector changes to avoid a missile, no human is going to
> be able to act coherently, regardless of the aspect of the ship, unless
> those G-forces are neutralized.  Any ship, in combat, that loses inertial
> compensation is going to be in BIG trouble.

Actually, other than the forces generated in the process of "turning"
the ship, the vector will be the same at all times. Because the main
drive only pushes in one direction. The "steering jets" or attitude
thrusters, or whatever aren't anywhere *near* as powerful.

Also you don't "bank" to make turns in space. The movies and TV are
almost uniformly wrong about that. Instead, when you are making a turn,
during the "turn", your main drive is pointing directly *away* from the
center of the "curve".

If you were going "north" (coasting) and wanted to change to going due
"west" at the same speed, you'd point the nose of the ship southwest,
and fire the engines until you were moving east. Vector addition is
funny stuff.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:42:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:

> Also, either design the G forces are not in the same direction unless 
> your accelerating to max to try and out run the other guy.  Most ships 
> are manuevering to return fire and evade incoming fire. kinda like in 
> your car.  When you slam on the gas, you go back into the seat.  When 
> you take a curve, you go to one side or the other.  Same on ships.

Nope. With no gravity, the *only* forces you feel are due to your
engines. So you turn the ship, then fire the main engines. That changes
your course. But except for some "minor" centrifuge effects as you turn
the ship (while still proceeding in the same direction), what you will
feel will *always* be "being pushed back in your seat".

Direction of travel and orientation of ship are not linked. You
direction of travel is the sum of all the different vectors your main
drive has given the ship. And every single time you use it, from the
inside what you feel is "down is towards the engines".

The sideways force you feel when making a turn in a car is because the
wheels on the road are exerting a force *towards* the center of the
curve, thus making "down" feel like the direction towards the outside
of the curve. With an airplane, it's wings biting into the air that
generate the "g forces", again, with "down" being towards the "outside"
of the curve.

With a ship in space, the only way to generate those forces is to turn
the ship so the main drive points towards what will be the outside of
the curve (and the nose points towards the inside). So you will
*always* feel the main drive along the same axis.

> As 
> soon as a vertical deckplan ship makes a hard turn to come about, any 
> hallways are now open elevator shafts.

Nope, because to *make* the turn, you have to (slowly) rotate the ship
until *then* fire the engines. With the result that the rotation has
aligned the floors with the new "down".

For various engineering reasons, you won't be rotating the ship fast
enough to create more as much as one g of centrifugal force. 

> During combat, how often do 
> the inertial comp & grav plates get hit?  The first targets are 
> usually bridge, weapons & manuevering drives.  You don't want your 
> prey running away & you sure don't want it returning fire.  Easier & 
> cheaper to repair manuever drives than fix all the inertial comp & 
> grav plates.  Alot less systems to repair and not that effictive of 
> target.  If your first shot disables IC & GP, they can still return 
> fire.

As has been pointed out on the list, you can't target *parts* of the
ship at typical combat ranges. By the time the shot (even a laser) gets
there, the ship's position and orientation will have changed, probably
by 100s of meters. You aren't firing at the ship. You are firing at
spots where you hope it will be.

Remember, one *hex* in space combat is 2.3 times as wide as *Earth*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:10:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Theta Borealis

In mail you write:

>         I am planning to develop Theta Borealis sector for a PBeM campaign
> set around 1120. I obtained the star positions from DGP Solomani & Aslan.
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>         1) Has this sector been developed in any product, or any TMLer has
> developed this or a contiguous sector? The closest developed sectors I know
> are Yiklerzdanzh (HIWG Australia) and Vanguard Reaches (Chuck Kallenbach II)

The answer is "yes but..."

Yes, there was a Theta Borealis sector published. But like all the
other "non-canon" sectors that got abandoned when MT came out, the star
info in the alien sourcebooks and the Atlas of the Imperium is *different*.

So even if you had a copy of the Theta Borealis sector that Group One
published, the star positions won't match what you have. The same is
true of just about *all* the non-GDW, non-DGP sectors published in the
old days. The maps in Atlas of the Imperium, and the various Alien
supplements is different.

So go for it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:15:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> "Vertical" ships won't be landing horizontally like the shuttle.
>> They'll be coming in tail first like the DC-X. And sitting down under
>> power, "jets" first. Takes less time, and less space. Also tends to
>> discourage folks from boobytrapping the landing area if you have a
>> reaction drive. :-)
>
> Seems like even an unstreamlined ship should be able to come in this
> way.

You need a fair amount of streamlining because you are moving rather
fast until the jets slow you enough. 

> With contragravity, it wouldn't even need to come in jets first,
> it could just float with the contragravity tuned to give the ship just
> enough weight to pull it down at a reasonable pace.  If it's reasonable
> armored, it could come in pretty fast if it wanted... just turn the
> cg on and thrust as you near the ground to brake.

Except that being "non-airframe" your ship wouldn't be able to handle
things like wind gusts, much less jetstreams, clear air turbulence, and
all the other fun things that can swat even experienced pilots out of
the sky.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:19:57 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: Solomani Generred Critters 

Other good uplift candidates would be elephants (who already have lots 
of smarts, a manipulator, and a human-calibre life-span), and raccoons
(who are pretty smart and have manipulators).

One might even want to try parrots.  African grey parrots can be 
taught to converse -- not mimic, converse -- about simple subjects
even now.  Ravens or crows might be pretty good candidates, too, 
though I haven't heard such remarkable stories about them as I have 
about the parrots.

In the GURPS Uplift book, they said that the jealous Galactics had 
forbidden any further uplift work on most of the species we've named, 
plus ... octopi.

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:21:32 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Gravitics in the news

<other forwards removed>

From: Milan Merhar <m.merhar@ieee.org>

Copied verbatim from the newspaper:

Dr. Eugene Podkletnov, a researcher at the Tampere University
of Technology, Finland, reported that during a superconductivity
experiment, tests showed a small drop in the weight of objects placed
over a device made up of a rotating superconducting ceramic disk suspended
by three electric coils enclosed in a cryostat.

The latest experiments by the Finnish researchers have reportedly registered
a two percent drop in the weight of objects suspended over the cryostat.
Controversy over this report has been fueled by Podkletnov's decision to
withdraw a paper he had submitted to the Journal of Physics-D: Applied
Physics, possibly due to patents being filed for the privately-funded research.

NASA has already contributed $150,000 to Dr. Ning Li, a research scientist
at the University of Alabama Huntsville Center for Space Plasma and Aeronomic
Research to duplicate the tests. Li published a 1991 paper in Physical
Review-D on gravity-modification experiments based on the interaction
between rotating
superconductors and the local gravity field. Her theories postulate that the
lattice-ion structure in a superconductor plays a significant part in
superconduction. Rotation of the lattice ions caused by the EM field generates
a gravito-magnetic force which can affect the local gravity field.

- ------- End of Forwarded Message

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:32:47 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: Dogs' flexible genetic structure 

Michael Barry writes:

    "OK, dogs are genetically 'flexible'. So are kangaroos."

Yes, but the wide variety of roos you describe are all different species.
Domestic dogs hae everything from chihuahuas to Irish wolf hounds in the 
*same* species, all capable of interbreeding. (Though I admit I have never
seen a St. Bernard-Pekinese  cross.  I have often longed to.  It would 
probably require the St .Bernard be the mother and training the father 
to use a ladder...)  Even the different "species" of dog, wolf, and 
coyote prove quite interfertile.

    "Larger kangaroos are also fairly intelligent - maybe not as 
     intelligent as a dog or an ape, but certainly highly social and with 
     rudimentary vocal communication. Measuring animal intelligence is 
     bloody difficult anyway, since any measurement is going to be biased 
     by our human-centric view of things."

But if we're uplifting something, we're probably deliberately aiming at 
a more humanlike intellect, not a completely-unhuman-but-just-as-good 
intellect, not only for reasons of self-interest but exactly for the 
reasons of difficulty you mention.  If dogs have a more humanlike 
psychology (not that I know they do), that would be a mark in their 
favor.

But I don't see that these species need by in competition for uplift.

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:57:43 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: A scary thought...

Michael Barry wrote:

>
>     Geneered kangaroo + Combat drug + Battledress armour + small planetoid
>     = a new definition of orbital insertion...


        Demented laughter!  Seeing as how we're onto silly genereered
species, what about geneered lovebirds?  They're the meanest bloody 5"
birds you'll ever see already...  and that's the opinion of someone who
actually *likes* the little beasts :).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:05:40 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani Generred Critters 

Earl Wajenberg wrote:
> In the GURPS Uplift book, they said that the jealous Galactics had
> forbidden any further uplift work on most of the species we've named,
> plus ... octopi.

Octopi are considered as probably the most intelligent non-vertabrate

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #684
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Sender: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com


Traveller-digest      Friday, November 22 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 685



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Virgin
Re: Re: Deckplan layout
uplifting
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Maneuvering in Space...
Gravitics in the news
Re: Solomani Geneered Critters
House Rules: Active Duty
RE: Deck Plans : Orientation
RE: Deckplan layout
Re: Gravitics
Re: House Rule: Military Intel
RE: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Meat is Murder (Was: K'kree and Virus)
Re: Bastard.
Re: Xeno-psych 101 (Why is Traveller so Humano / Earth-centric ?)
Marc's sector posting
RE: Deckplan layout
Re: Xeno-psych 101 (Why is Traveller so Humano / Earth-centric ?) 
Re: Gravitics in the news
Re: Gravitics in the news
"Jewish " system engineer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 15:07:22 GMT
From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Subject: Virgin

~EXTERNALFROM  : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
TO       : traveller@mpgn.com
SUBJECT  : Virgin
DATE     :  Fri Nov 22 15:04:37 GMT 1996
ADDRESS  : Mountbatten Library, Southampton Institute,
         : East Park Terrace, Southampton, SO14 OYN
         : UK
TELEPHONE: 01703 319248

Message is as follows:

Mark Wilkin asked when T4 might turn up at Virgin.

I've been wondering the same and dropping in twice a week for
ages now.  It just so happened that after reading his post, I
went out a lunchtime and lo and behold it had arrived.

It was 14.99 if that helps and if you're desperate I
could post it.

No sign of the Starships book of course.


HTH

tc

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1996 15:00:37 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Deckplan layout

>When you take a curve [in a car], you go to one side or the other.  Same on
ships.  As 
>soon as a vertical deckplan ship makes a hard turn to come about, any 
>hallways are now open elevator shafts. 

Actually, no.  When you maneuver in space, the thrust is mainly along the
axis of the maneuver drive.  Spinning the ship will produce centripetal
accelerations, but these will not be as significant.  Remember, Traveller
uses a realistic vector movement system - not WWII dogfights in space.

Now in atmospheres, such as a gas giant, you will get other forces (from the
atmosphere interacting with the hull) so I would expect SDB's to be planned
with this is mind.

I would expect a big factor for merchants (who don't expect to be in combat)
would be convenience and cost on the ground.  Having a horizontal layout
means that you can turn off your AG while in port.  Similarly, small military
vessels (in the "one good hit and you're dead anyway" catagory) might well be
laid out for ease of getting around.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:32:40 -0600
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: uplifting

Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com> wrote:
>Other good uplift candidates would be elephants (who already have lots 
>of smarts, a manipulator, and a human-calibre life-span), and raccoons
>(who are pretty smart and have manipulators).

   Elephants have already been done.  Not to full human/Vargr level
intelligence, but enough for limited language.  This is out of an 
old JTAS.  The trunk had been modified with finger like tentacles at the 
end.  Hmmm... I wonder if that issue came out before or after "Footfall"?
Probably before.

   Raccoons are a good subject.  Bruce Sterling did a short story that
mentioned genetically enhanced Raccoons.

  As mentioned elsewhere, big cats (cougar, leopard, tiger) are good
subjects.  I wouldn't be suprised if the Solmani had developed such
at some point.  If you are in the New Era, that data, along with
genetic samples (perhaps even grown samples in statis) could just
be waiting in a forgotten lab...


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:15:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Except that being "non-airframe" your ship wouldn't be able to handle
> things like wind gusts, much less jetstreams, clear air turbulence, and
> all the other fun things that can swat even experienced pilots out of
> the sky.

Meaning that the ship is so flimsy that the wind would rip it apart?
I would think that a space ship would be built relatively sturdily
to take acceleration (which is not always in one direction), small
meteor impacts, etc...  At least sturdy enough that a stiff wind won't
rip parts of it off.  Also, if you have contragravity, how would you
fall?  You don't weight anything.  If nothing else, a planetoid could
come in this way... it may not be able to land, though there's no
inherent reason why it couldn't have landing gear.  I agree that an
unstreamlined ship wouldn't be able to fly very fast or maneuver
very well at all, but it just seems silly to say that it can not
enter the atmosphere...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:23:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Maneuvering in Space...

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Nope. With no gravity, the *only* forces you feel are due to your
> engines. So you turn the ship, then fire the main engines. That changes
> your course. But except for some "minor" centrifuge effects as you turn
> the ship (while still proceeding in the same direction), what you will
> feel will *always* be "being pushed back in your seat".

I would say that these lateral forces wouldn't necessarily be minor
in a warship.  It'd be spinning pretty fast and in a ship that was
long, those in the nose or tail would be flung sideways pretty
hard.  You might even want to mount more than one 'main' engine to

> The sideways force you feel when making a turn in a car is because the
> wheels on the road are exerting a force *towards* the center of the
> curve, thus making "down" feel like the direction towards the outside
> of the curve. With an airplane, it's wings biting into the air that
> generate the "g forces", again, with "down" being towards the "outside"
> of the curve.

Well, technically the force you feel is your inertia trying to make
you keep going straight while the car is changing direction.  The car
then exerts a force on you to turn you along with it.

> For various engineering reasons, you won't be rotating the ship fast
> enough to create more as much as one g of centrifugal force. 

Why not?  I'd assume that ships in space combat are constantly and
quickly rotating to bring various weapons and drives to bear.  Seems
like you'd want to design your ship to rotate as fast as possible.
The closer you get, the faster you're going to be changing orientation.
You might not generate a g of 'centrifugal force', but you will be
slamming people into bulkheads as the ship suddenly starts rotating.
You're going to need to coordinate maneuvers with damage control
and not do much maneuvering when folks are out fixing stuff.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:56:24 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Gravitics in the news

> Dr. Eugene Podkletnov, a researcher at the Tampere University
> of Technology, Finland, reported that during a superconductivity
> experiment, tests showed a small drop in the weight of objects placed
> over a device made up of a rotating superconducting ceramic disk suspended
> by three electric coils enclosed in a cryostat.
>
> The latest experiments by the Finnish researchers have reportedly registered
> a two percent drop in the weight of objects suspended over the cryostat.

        True. And the device is basically very simple.

        However, the leader of Department of Electrical Engineering in
        TUT told us not to get overexcited about this experiment. We want
        to avoid similar media overheating which happened around the
        Cold Fusion experiments.

        (No. Wile I am a researcher in TUT, I am not directly involved in
        this gravitation experiment.)


        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:59:08 -0500
From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani Geneered Critters

If the Tech. supports the ability to Genetically Engineer (GE) the
intelligance of Animals would we not see see GE Men. Out goes a whole
list of genetically transmitted conditions. It would seem that physical
and mental characteristics would be boosted and tailored to fit their
environment the Man lives in.
 It is a old theme in SF but I dont remember it makeing a big splash in
Traveller. Did I miss it or did someone write up the rules if so when
and where.
                                                            Thanks  
                                                            Charlie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:40:08 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: House Rules: Active Duty

I have just started to write some house rules for my latest campaign
regarding active duty Naval characters (and one scout.)  I plan to use the
command rule from MT for determining whether or not a PC can be posted to a
command during the campaign, and I have a question.  I have never been in the
military, and most of my "naval" knowledge comes from "Star Trek:TNG" and
"Mr. Roberts" with Henry Fonda.  (Great movie.)  I'm curious what sort of
ships a lower ranking character would be given to command.  I know that it is
unlikely for a full Lieutenant or Lt. Commander to get a command, but it
isn't impossible.  In fact, I think they would commonly hold commands of
smaller vessels, e.g. destroyer escorts, merc cruisers, patrol cruisers, etc.
 Feel free to use examples of ships from CT through TNE if you like;  I am
designing a small fleet of my own for this campaign, using CT "Fighting
Ships" and "Brilliant Lances as guidelines.  Also, any input on appropriate
ranks for "senior officers"  (Chief Engineer, Gunner, XO, etc.) would be
greatly appreciated.  If this thread is inappropriate for the list please
e-mail me privately with information or resources on where I can find this
type of data.  

Thanks in advance.

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:33:53 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Deck Plans : Orientation

The ship may be built sturdy enuff to withstand space and meteroids but
once you start to enter atmosphere you have all those pesky antenna and
such.  Remember in space there is no air resistance.  Thus entering
atmosphere you'd come in and all sensors would go out.  Try landing that
vertical deckplan now, since your bridge is ontop.  Plus the wind gust
might not rip off parts but it throws forces that aren't normally
encountered.  The pilot would constantly be trying to compensate for
drifts and deviations.  Also wonder how much protection against heat
it's got.  Reentry tends ta run hot.  Without heat shields, get mighty
hot.  Put a strain on lifesupport systems.  True ships are shield for
solar radiation and some heat but I don't think for the heat of reentry.

>----------
>From: 	Bolie Williams IV[SMTP:bolie@io.com]
>Sent: 	Friday, November 22, 1996 10:15 AM
>To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: 	Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
>
>
>Meaning that the ship is so flimsy that the wind would rip it apart?
>I would think that a space ship would be built relatively sturdily
>to take acceleration (which is not always in one direction), small
>meteor impacts, etc...  At least sturdy enough that a stiff wind won't
>rip parts of it off.  Also, if you have contragravity, how would you
>fall?  You don't weight anything.  If nothing else, a planetoid could
>come in this way... it may not be able to land, though there's no
>inherent reason why it couldn't have landing gear.  I agree that an
>unstreamlined ship wouldn't be able to fly very fast or maneuver
>very well at all, but it just seems silly to say that it can not
>enter the atmosphere...
>
>Bolie IV
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Bolie Williams IV
>bolie@io.com
>http://www.io.com/~bolie/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:43:44 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Deckplan layout

- ----------
From: 	shadow@krypton.rain.com[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
Sent: 	Friday, November 22, 1996 4:42 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:


Direction of travel and orientation of ship are not linked. You
direction of travel is the sum of all the different vectors your main
drive has given the ship. And every single time you use it, from the
inside what you feel is "down is towards the engines".

With a ship in space, the only way to generate those forces is to 
turn
the ship so the main drive points towards what will be the outside of
the curve (and the nose points towards the inside). So you will
*always* feel the main drive along the same axis.

> As
> soon as a vertical deckplan ship makes a hard turn to come about, 
any
> hallways are now open elevator shafts.

Nope, because to *make* the turn, you have to (slowly) rotate the 
ship
until *then* fire the engines. With the result that the rotation has
aligned the floors with the new "down".

For various engineering reasons, you won't be rotating the ship fast
enough to create more as much as one g of centrifugal force.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

Even if its only a g, that's enuff to send someone flying who's 
walking or carrying equipment.  And you say they don't make hard 
turns, they slowly rotate.  In combat I don't think there's any slow 
rotation involved.  They would be firing the manuevering engines as 
hard as possible.  Plus vectoring is fine using todays spacecraft that 
have manuevering jets on front.  In Traveller, you have manuever 
drive.  Are there jets still?  Looking at all the deckplans, the 
manuever drive is back with jump drive and power plant.  Would this 
change navigation?

Clint Fishback

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:36:50 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gravitics

In a message dated 96-11-22 07:10:33 EST, Leonard writes:

> And each additional meter of movement takes another 4 million MJ.
>  

Don't you mean "meter of acceleration."  I hate to quibble, but I'm not great
at this stuff on my own, and I need to make sure I understand it correctly.
 Once the planetoid is moving, it should continue to move at a velocity of
one meter per second, but will only accelerate at a rate of one meter per
second per second if you continue to add thrust.  Right?


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:36:56 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: House Rule: Military Intel

In a message dated 96-11-21 21:13:43 EST, Tim Reynolds writes:

> My only problem is that I think I 
>  would raise the acceptance roll to a 7 or so.

I see no problem with that.  Makes a certain degree of sense that
Intelligence would be drawn from the "best of the best," as it were.

Then Rich Ostorero wrote:

> I'd suggest, however, that the MI characters recieve a new skill (or an old
>  one, depending upon how plugged into old Paranioa Press supps you are).
The
>  skill is Intelligence Analysis (specialty: Military), which I define as
the
>  ability to analyze data with an eye to MI value. IA(Mil) is the military
>  equivalent of Criminolgy (the ability to analyze crime scenes for
pertinent
>  data).
>  
>  Generic Intelligence Analysis skill might also be available to pure
Agents.

Very cool.  I wasn't aware this existed, but I absolutely feel it should be
used.  I may have to rewrite some of the tables.

>  
>  <Snip> Further, the Retention roll should use the service table vice the
Agents 
>  table.

Absolutely.  I don't think it should be easier to stay in Intel than it is to
remain in the service proper, as would be the case for Army Intel officers. I
forgot to add this line before:  "You should roll for continuance on the
appropriate military career chart.  If you fail the roll, you are discharged,
and begin the Mustering out process."  Perhaps the character could then apply
for an agent career in some government agency, without the -1 DM required for
a second career, because of their military intel experience.  BTW, I assume
that you cannot transfer back from Intel to an ordinary unit. (Once a spy...)
 If anyone knows how this is handled in modern military forces, I would
appreciate your input.

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:11:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: RE: Deck Plans : Orientation

1.  If you're not going very fast, antennae, etc... aren't going to be
ripped off.  I'm assuming that an unstreamlines ship wouldn't go very
fast.

2.  I'm also assuming that the ship has some sort of landing gear and
that the deckplan is appropriate *or* the gravity compensators can
compensate (though it would be kind of weird to land sidways.  :)
Also, ships with fusion plants and contragravity don't have to land,
they can just hover a few feet off the ground (or higher) if they
want.

3.  So what if the ship is pulled by wind gusts?  If it's got
contragravity, it would just drift a bit.  The pilot could easily
compensate for gross course deviations and just not worry about
small ones.

4.  If you match the rotation of the planet and come in slow, then
there won't be heat generated.  Heat of reentry is caused by friction
with the air as the ship slams into the atmosphere at a high speed.
If you just drop down slowly, then there won't be any heat.

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Clint Fishback wrote:
> The ship may be built sturdy enuff to withstand space and meteroids but
> once you start to enter atmosphere you have all those pesky antenna and
> such.  Remember in space there is no air resistance.  Thus entering
> atmosphere you'd come in and all sensors would go out.  Try landing that
> vertical deckplan now, since your bridge is ontop.  Plus the wind gust
> might not rip off parts but it throws forces that aren't normally
> encountered.  The pilot would constantly be trying to compensate for
> drifts and deviations.  Also wonder how much protection against heat
> it's got.  Reentry tends ta run hot.  Without heat shields, get mighty
> hot.  Put a strain on lifesupport systems.  True ships are shield for
> solar radiation and some heat but I don't think for the heat of reentry.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 18:07 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Meat is Murder (Was: K'kree and Virus)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.91.961120160102.2385A-100000@statler.cc.wwu.edu>

<< Is it any wonder why the K'kree picture us as a bunch of naked 
savages sitting in a darkened cave with a big fire, stripping flesh from 
bones with our teeth, rejoicing in the plaques forming in our veins?  I 
guess that it's a GOOD thing that the Two Thousand Worlds is so far 
away. >>

Hmm...first contact between K'kree and Aslan would be fun to watch... 
(from a safe distance)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 18:07 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Bastard.

In-Reply-To: <961120212205_1615783784@emout16.mail.aol.com>

<< >     Just saw Bill Clinton's motorcade go past. A bunch of cops 
stopped me 
>     from crossing Commonwealth Avenue Bridge on the way to work. 
>     
>     And I wrote some nice things about him during my US Politics exam 
>     yesterday. Bastard didn't even wave to me. 

   This is normal.  Our President, King William, is far too busy playing 
golf with Greg Norman and causing major security problems by jogging his 
lard butt in the open on public streets to be bothered with peasents (or 
people he thinks of as peasents anyway).

   As a citizen of the United States of America, I would like to 
officially apologize for your inconvenience. >>
   
Shoulda stuck with a monarchy - the Queen *always* waves!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 18:07 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Xeno-psych 101 (Why is Traveller so Humano / Earth-centric ?)

In-Reply-To: <199611211451.JAA18847@jonah.chrysalis.com>

<< I didn't know that.  I read a great deal of Niven's Known Space 
series but then he dropped it for a long time, and when he picked it up 
again, I didn't.  I *did* know about the Slaver War, and that the Kzinti 
are the tnuctipun, or their descendants. >>

Where did that last bit come from?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:10:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Marc's sector posting

Just out of curiosity, did anyone keep a copy of Marc's sample sector
posting? I've accidently deleted mine, not realizing I'd like to use it
for the Traveller game we're playing. My players have gone and 
thrown me right off the map already.

:)

Thanks!
- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:02:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: RE: Deckplan layout

Actually, with reactionless thrusters, you could just mount the drives
in the middle of the ship in a gimballed sphere and have the drives
rotate.  As long as they were at the center of mass, you wouldn't
have to rotate the ship.  You might have to do something with the heat,
though... but a cooling system with fins on the outside of the ship
would take care of that...

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Clint Fishback wrote:
> have manuevering jets on front.  In Traveller, you have manuever 
> drive.  Are there jets still?  Looking at all the deckplans, the 
> manuever drive is back with jump drive and power plant.  Would this 
> change navigation?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:34:16 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: Xeno-psych 101 (Why is Traveller so Humano / Earth-centric ?) 

When I wrote:

 "I *did* know about the Slaver War, and that the Kzinti are the tnuctipun, 
  or their descendants."

Andrew Boulton asked:

 "Where did that last bit come from?"

I believe I read it in an essay by Niven entitled "Down in Flames," in 
which he described how he had mined out the Known Space setting and 
was going to move on.  (Apparently he changed his mind.)

One of the things he said was that the kzinti are the tnuctipun, but 
the only person in Known Space who could know that was Larry Greenberg,
the telepathic hero of "World of Ptaavs."  Having read the mind of a 
thrint/Slaver, Greenberg knows what a tnuctip looks like.  Of course, 
Greenberg has never seen a kzinti, because he shipped out on the 
Lazy Eight II, before we ever encountered the kzinit.  That ship was a 
near-c slowboat and failed to decelerate.  It is coasting through the 
galaxy at near-c speeds.  Should anyone ever rescue the crew of the 
Lazy Eight II, though, Greenberg might, as Niven put it, be walking 
the streets of Jinx, say, see a kzinti visitor, and exclain, "Heavens
preserve us! A tnuctip!"  No one, including the kzinti, would know what
he was talking about at first.

Perhaps this was a notion Niven was just playing with, so we should 
not count it as canonical for Known Space.

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:36:09 -0700
From: Jon Goff <jongoff@et.byu.edu>
Subject: Re: Gravitics in the news

Earl Wajenberg wrote:
> 
> <other forwards removed>
> 
> From: Milan Merhar <m.merhar@ieee.org>
> 
> Copied verbatim from the newspaper:
> 
> Dr. Eugene Podkletnov, a researcher at the Tampere University
> of Technology, Finland, reported that during a superconductivity
> experiment, tests showed a small drop in the weight of objects placed
> over a device made up of a rotating superconducting ceramic disk suspended
> by three electric coils enclosed in a cryostat.
> 
> The latest experiments by the Finnish researchers have reportedly registered
> a two percent drop in the weight of objects suspended over the cryostat.
> Controversy over this report has been fueled by Podkletnov's decision to
> withdraw a paper he had submitted to the Journal of Physics-D: Applied
> Physics, possibly due to patents being filed for the privately-funded research.
> 
> NASA has already contributed $150,000 to Dr. Ning Li, a research scientist
> at the University of Alabama Huntsville Center for Space Plasma and Aeronomic
> Research to duplicate the tests. Li published a 1991 paper in Physical
> Review-D on gravity-modification experiments based on the interaction
> between rotating
> superconductors and the local gravity field. Her theories postulate that the
> lattice-ion structure in a superconductor plays a significant part in
> superconduction. Rotation of the lattice ions caused by the EM field generates
> a gravito-magnetic force which can affect the local gravity field.
> 
> ------- End of Forwarded Message

	I am no expert in Physics.  In fact, I am just a 16 year old undergrad
at BYU studying in Manuf. Eng.  However, if you want to read about
Artificial Gravity check out the book "Tapping the Zero-Point Energy" by
Moray B King.  He is a jewish slystems engineer.  He has some very good
points.  From what I gleaned from his writings, I have a new theory of
gravity that coresponds directly with Einsteins works, but it has some
... quirks....

	I may be 100% wrong, but then again, maybe I'm not......
- -- 
Star Colonel Travis CSV	  []_[]	 "No plan survives first contact 
"All you people who you   /(_)\	  the enemy.  Heck, most plans	
know everything are      0 0 0 0  don't even survive first contact 	
annoying us who do."  	   O O	  with reality"--Hammer Lathrop

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:38:58 -0700
From: Jon Goff <jongoff@et.byu.edu>
Subject: Re: Gravitics in the news

Antti Lahtinen wrote:
> 
> > Dr. Eugene Podkletnov, a researcher at the Tampere University
> > of Technology, Finland, reported that during a superconductivity
> > experiment, tests showed a small drop in the weight of objects placed
> > over a device made up of a rotating superconducting ceramic disk suspended
> > by three electric coils enclosed in a cryostat.
> >
> > The latest experiments by the Finnish researchers have reportedly registered
> > a two percent drop in the weight of objects suspended over the cryostat.
> 
>         True. And the device is basically very simple.
> 
>         However, the leader of Department of Electrical Engineering in
>         TUT told us not to get overexcited about this experiment. We want
>         to avoid similar media overheating which happened around the
>         Cold Fusion experiments.
> 
>         (No. Wile I am a researcher in TUT, I am not directly involved in
>         this gravitation experiment.)
> 
>         Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
>         lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

BTW, my sources aren't of the Uof Uish or BYUish kind.  I may still be
wrong, so don't flame me for showing my view of reality.

- -- 
Star Colonel Travis CSV	  []_[]	 "No plan survives first contact 
"All you people who you   /(_)\	  the enemy.  Heck, most plans	
know everything are      0 0 0 0  don't even survive first contact 	
annoying us who do."  	   O O	  with reality"--Hammer Lathrop

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:37:27 -0500
From: matth@homer.njit.edu (Matthew Harelick)
Subject: "Jewish " system engineer

> From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Fri Nov 22 13:37 EST 1996
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:36:09 -0700
> From: Jon Goff <jongoff@et.byu.edu>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Gravitics in the news
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
>
> 	I am no expert in Physics.  In fact, I am just a 16 year old undergrad
> at BYU studying in Manuf. Eng.  However, if you want to read about
> Artificial Gravity check out the book "Tapping the Zero-Point Energy" by
> Moray B King.  He is a jewish slystems engineer.  He has some very good
>


Why do you point out the persons religion? 

> points.  From what I gleaned from his writings, I have a new theory of
> gravity that coresponds directly with Einsteins works, but it has some
> ... quirks....
> 
> 	I may be 100% wrong, but then again, maybe I'm not......
> -- 
> Star Colonel Travis CSV	  []_[]	 "No plan survives first contact 
> "All you people who you   /(_)\	  the enemy.  Heck, most plans	
> know everything are      0 0 0 0  don't even survive first contact 	
> annoying us who do."  	   O O	  with reality"--Hammer Lathrop

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #685
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Traveller-digest      Friday, November 22 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 686



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Jewish " system engineer
Various Jump Questions
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: Various Jump Questions
Re: Dogs' flexible genetic structure
Complaint (minor) about TLWH
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: World building (Hydrogen)
Niven, tnuctipun, "Down in Flames"
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
World Building (Oxygen)
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Down In Flames (Kzinti)
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: House Rules: Active Duty (sort of)
[none]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:52:04 -0700
From: Jon Goff <jongoff@et.byu.edu>
Subject: Re: "Jewish " system engineer

Matthew Harelick wrote:
> 
> > From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Fri Nov 22 13:37 EST 1996
> > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:36:09 -0700
> > From: Jon Goff <jongoff@et.byu.edu>
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> > Subject: Re: Gravitics in the news
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >
> >       I am no expert in Physics.  In fact, I am just a 16 year old undergrad
> > at BYU studying in Manuf. Eng.  However, if you want to read about
> > Artificial Gravity check out the book "Tapping the Zero-Point Energy" by
> > Moray B King.  He is a jewish slystems engineer.  He has some very good
> >
> 
> Why do you point out the persons religion?
> 
> > points.  From what I gleaned from his writings, I have a new theory of
> > gravity that coresponds directly with Einsteins works, but it has some
> > ... quirks....
> >
> >       I may be 100% wrong, but then again, maybe I'm not......

	I don't know...I just thought that the knee-jerk reaction to physics
news from BYU would be to dismiss it as those wacky mormons.
Mever Nind.

- -- 
Star Colonel Travis CSV	  []_[]	 "No plan survives first contact 
"All you people who you   /(_)\	  the enemy.  Heck, most plans	
know everything are      0 0 0 0  don't even survive first contact 	
annoying us who do."  	   O O	  with reality"--Hammer Lathrop

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:49:56 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Various Jump Questions

This should keep everyone busy for a while.  Can somebody be spaced while in
J-space?  What happens to the ship if an airlock is opened?  What if a bomb
were planted on the ship, set to breach the hull, and didn't detonate until
the ship had entered J-space?  Hmmm?

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:55:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 TPeterAZ@aol.com wrote:

[snip]
> "Mr. Roberts" with Henry Fonda.  (Great movie.)  I'm curious what sort of
> ships a lower ranking character would be given to command.  I know that it is
> unlikely for a full Lieutenant or Lt. Commander to get a command, but it
> isn't impossible.  In fact, I think they would commonly hold commands of
> smaller vessels, e.g. destroyer escorts, merc cruisers, patrol cruisers, etc.
>  Feel free to use examples of ships from CT through TNE if you like;  I am
> designing a small fleet of my own for this campaign, using CT "Fighting
> Ships" and "Brilliant Lances as guidelines.  Also, any input on appropriate
> ranks for "senior officers"  (Chief Engineer, Gunner, XO, etc.) would be
> greatly appreciated.  If this thread is inappropriate for the list please
> e-mail me privately with information or resources on where I can find this
> type of data.  
> 

I'll take a shot, with the likelihood of correction by those on this list
who have been military personnel in the various navies and other services
rep[resented here.

My own take; Rank of the commander is a function of the size of the
vessel.  The larger the vessel, the higher the rank of the commander.

All Jump capable vessels, no matter how small, will be commanded by an
officer.  Ship's boats and smaller SBDs may be commanded by a Chief Petty
Officer (CPO), or an Ensign.

Here is a table of O ranks (from memory);

Ensign
Lieutenant (j.g.)
Lieutenant
Lt. Commander
Commander
Captain
Commodore (see below)

Flag Ranks;
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Admiral of the Fleet

An Ensign would never (almost) command more than a ship's boat or lander.
This is due to the simple fact that an Ensign is still "in training" and
requires some sort of supervision before being trusted with an independant
command.  More often an ensign will be in charge of a section or
department on a larger ship (laundry officer, helm station occupant,
signals or communication officer) while they train for the lieutenant's
exam.

That they put Ensign Kim in charge on the Voyager in a recent episode
seems to me a sign of desperation.  They probably should have left someone
else to be in command.

A Lieutenant Junior Grade may command a small ship, usually insystem,
often a 300-400 ton SDB, occassionally a 400 ton Close Escort or Courier,
but only when a more senior officer is unavailable.  Lt. j.g. is more
likely to command a section or in fact, like the ensigns, not be in charge
of anyone, but be a bridge officer.

A lieutenant is the most likely rank to be in charge of the above
mentioned 400 ton Close Escort.  This is a legitimate command officer
(though the lowest ranking one).  In part this is due to the need for
about 4 officers on a Close Escort.  To me that would be one Lt
(commanding), One Lt(jg) or Ensign (1st Officer/Helm), One Ensign or Lt
(jg) as medical Officer, and a CPO as Chief Engineer (a "non-commissioned
Officer" usually more experianced than the commander).  A Lt would not be
allowed to cammand anything much over 1000 tons, so larger escorts are
permitted.  

A Lt. Commander may command vessels from the Close Escort (where she or he
may be a commander of a small [2-5 ships] squadron) up to the lighter
destroyers, say 2000 tons.  

Commanders are almost interchangable with Lt. Commanders, but will almost
never be in charge of an escort under 1000 tons, and might be seen
commanding the biggest destroyers (5000 tons?).  Also a commander is about
the lightest rank to command any kind of base or installation (obviously
the smallest ones).

Captains, ah to be of Flag Rank in Cleon I's Navy.  The full spectrum of
Captains are the mainstay of the command officers in the Navy. They will
command (in order of seniority) all vessels up to the largest and down to
the smallest of insdependent size (even an occassional 5k ton destroyer).
Captains (and all other ranks for that matter) are on "The List" which
shows every captain in order of seniority.  Captains may be passed over
for command when there is a command open, but generally the list is stuck
to so that as new commands open up (due to new construction, promotion of
retirement of the commander of a vessel, etc) the senior unposted Captain
on the list is offered that position.  A Captain will generally be offered
a command proportional to her or his seniority. 

All ships are commanded by Captains.  More senior officers are commanders
of squadrons, fleets or armadas of ships, not individual vessels (they
instruct the commanders under their orders, but do not interfere in the
running of the ship itself).  Even the largest Dreadnought is commanded by
a Captain (albiet a senior one) although there will often (almost always?)
be an admiral of one type or another along to command the Batron.

Commodores are a special case.  Historically, Commodore was a rank between
Captain and Admiral.  More recently a Commodore is a title given to an
officer of Captain's rank who is acting as overall commander of a squadron
of ships.  The latter meaning is the one I recommend.  So a senior captain
will be appointed Commodore of a squadron of destroyers up to  Battleships
(up to 100k tons each) or a mixed task force of relatively small size for
a specific mission or period of time.

Admirals are awarded the command of Permanents formations of ships and of
areas of responsibility.  I would use a Rear Admiral to command a system
of moderate importance, a Vice Admiral for a system with its own
detachment, and a full admiral for subsector capitals and Naval Bases.
Each Dreadnought BatRon and regular Battleship BatRon will have an admiral
(probably full) in overall command, with vice and rear admirals in charge
of the Crusier section, destroyer section, scout section, carrier section,
etc.  Perhaps even one in charge of all Fighter Ops.

More senior admirals would command entire subsectors (as opposed to the
Capital itself) in a way which closely mirrors the Feudal pattern of
nobles, only in a more organized fashion.  Areas of more importance or
activity would have a denser concentration of Flag Rank officers, Other
areas lesser.  For example the area of Ilesh in an Imperium at Peace would
probably have just a few admiral type people (since it is interior to the
Imperium) whereas the Solomani Border or the Spinward marches may need an
Admiral for every two or three subsectors.

First Officers are one full rank below the Captain.

Engineering Officers are usually two full ranks below the captain, but at
least a Chief Petty Officer (I am not going to get into that pantheon of
ranks).

Medical Officers are of lessor or equal rank to the 1st officer, but
this is not too important. 

Section Heads (Gunnery officers, Flight Officer, etc) are generally one
rank below the first officer, but sometimes are of equal rank, especiall
if they are a lieutenant on a large vessel.

Some may say that Fighter pilots or pilots in general must be officers.  I
think that pilots are "specialists" and can hence be Petty Officers or
even Seamen...er, spacemen.  Most officers have at least some pilot skill,
however, and a helmsman on a large vessel (Destroyer or higher) will be an
officer most of the time.

Hope that helps and isn't too far from reality.  My sources are some
knowledge of current practice and extensive reading of 18th and 19th
century Royal Navy fictional history (Hornblower, Aubrey/Maturin) which
makes an excellent basis for a Traveller/Imperial Navy backdrop.

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:01:03 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Various Jump Questions

TPeterAZ@aol.com wrote:
> 
> This should keep everyone busy for a while.  Can somebody be spaced while in
> J-space?  What happens to the ship if an airlock is opened?  What if a bomb
> were planted on the ship, set to breach the hull, and didn't detonate until
> the ship had entered J-space?  Hmmm?
> 

I treat this kind of thing the same way I would for normal space. Your
ship 
can be depressurized in space. The only difference here is that you (the
person being spaced) could not be rescued after you leave the airlock 
(assuming you're wearing a vacc suit) because you'd vanish into the
depths
of hyperspace.


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:43:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Dogs' flexible genetic structure

Quoth Earl Wajenberg:
> *same* species, all capable of interbreeding. (Though I admit I have never
> seen a St. Bernard-Pekinese  cross.  I have often longed to.  It would 
> probably require the St. Bernard be the mother and training the father 
> to use a ladder...)

A friend witnessed a Great Dane - Dachshund cross.  The Dachshund crept up
on the Great Dane while she was sleeping....  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:46:39 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Complaint (minor) about TLWH

I've found the first (and so far only) complaint about The Long Way Home-the
staples aren't big enough! The book is 100 pages, and the standard size
staples aren't strong enough to hold it together! I picked it up to start
reading it again before I run it tonight, and the middle six pages fell out!
The next time you BITS guys decide to publish a huge, awesome 100 page
adventure, you might want to use heavy duty staples! :)
        (Of course, this can also be construed as a good thing-the adventure
is so chock full of good stuff, you can't keep it between the covers!)
                                Allen, busily engaged in putting his book 
                                back together....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:32:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:33:53 -0500
> From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
> 
> The ship may be built sturdy enuff to withstand space and meteroids but
> once you start to enter atmosphere you have all those pesky antenna and
> such.

I'd suggest that a nonstreamlined ship operating in a standard or thicker
atomosphere would have a X percent chance (where X might be around 5%) per
hour in flight of suffering a sensor hit (like battle damage) due to air
resistance damaging external antennae.  Positive mods would apply for
dense atmospheres and (especially) high speeds; negative for pilot skill.

> Remember in space there is no air resistance.  Thus entering
> atmosphere you'd come in and all sensors would go out.

Not all sensors would go out.  Some might be taken off-line and the sensor
antennae stored aboard ship, if you had time to plan things out; others
(e.g., visible-light cameras, simple radar/ladar) need have little
external structure to catch the wind, and would thus be pretty safe.

> Try landing that
> vertical deckplan now, since your bridge is ontop.

Actually, any sensible designer puts the bridge in the *center*, or as
near it as possible, since you don't want your ship's brain getting fried
by a shallow penetration.  I'm sure that any ship big enough to have
multiple decks does all its normal flying (in vacuum as well as in an
atmosphere) based on remote sensors feeding data (visible light, radar, et
al) to the bridge, rather than "looking out the windows."  For safety, you
might rig an emergency pilot's station with a window somewhere, with just
enough controls to land/dock the ship in a crisis. 

> Plus the wind gust
> might not rip off parts but it throws forces that aren't normally
> encountered.  The pilot would constantly be trying to compensate for
> drifts and deviations.

This is actually a good point, and explains why unstreamlined ships would
not be welcome in the atmospheric traffic patterns of civlized worlds --
they can't control their positions reliably enough to follow the pattern,
and thus would be a hazard to themselves and other vessels.

However, on a less-populated world, with little traffic, dancing around a
bit on the way down might not be a problem, nor would (necessarily)
landing 500 meters away from the spot you aimed for...though the latter
could be *very* embarrassing if you were aiming for, say, a small island
in a swamp... :)

> Also wonder how much protection against heat
> it's got.  Reentry tends ta run hot.  Without heat shields, get mighty
> hot.  Put a strain on lifesupport systems.  True ships are shield for
> solar radiation and some heat but I don't think for the heat of reentry.

There is absolutely no good reason for a CG-equipped ship to re-enter at
high speed -- outside of combat situations, that is.  If you really want
to baby your ship, you can match rotational speeds with the planet, just
above the atmosphere, hovering on CG and a tickle of thrust.  Then simply
idle the engines and gently waft downward.  Re-entry at 50 km/hr is not
going to create much heat -- and gets you from near-vacuum to dirt in
about 2-3 hours, for an Earthlike world.  Those with more guts, or more
spare external antennae, might drop a little faster and cut the elapsed
time accordingly.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:41:15 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: World building (Hydrogen)

Neil Taylor says:

> the interesting question about hydrogen and large planets is the 
> extra-solar planets detected,all of which (so far) are huge (Jupiter 
> ++) - but several orbit thier suns well inside the orbit of Mercury 
> (equivalent). 

> These planets may still be large enough to trap hydrogen, but be
> glowing hot with it - o
> they may be enourmous rockballs like a mega-Mercury.

> We await progress from the astronomers to resolve that one (someday..)

The problem is a little bit more complex than I thought, but for those 
who want to put some semblance :-) of scientific reality in a science
fiction game, here are some ideas (some from Traveller material) to 
allow an intellegent guess.
You can make a ballpark estimate of a world's surface temperature
(TNE World Tamer's guide, if nothing better) given an orbit distance
and the star's spectral classification. 
The most probable speed for a gas molecule is given by 105 * sqrt (absolute
temp/molecular weight)
TNE extended world generation gives you a table with estimates of surface
gravity.
Escape velocity at the surface is Sqrt(2 * surface gravity * planet radius)

If the most probable velocity is greater than escape velocity, then the gas
will certainly escape. 
Even if the gas has a lower escape velocity, there is some tendency for it
to "evaporate". This depends in a more complex way on the gravity and size
of the planet, and the density and temperature of the atmosphere, but I
would assume that if the most probable speed is more than about 1/10 the
surface escape velocity, the gas will be lost.

Definitely the first and probably the second rule should give the minimum
size a world needs to be to retain a given gas (regardless when or how it
got it in the first place)

That's an extremely crude oversimplification, but given the other
approximations, it should be close enough for Traveller.
  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:42:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Niven, tnuctipun, "Down in Flames"

> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:34:16 -0500
> From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
> 
> When I wrote:
> 
>  "I *did* know about the Slaver War, and that the Kzinti are the tnuctipun, 
>   or their descendants."
> 
> Andrew Boulton asked:
> 
>  "Where did that last bit come from?"
> 
> I believe I read it in an essay by Niven entitled "Down in Flames," in 
> which he described how he had mined out the Known Space setting and 
> was going to move on.  (Apparently he changed his mind.)

"Down in Flames" was written by Niven (with the collaboration of some of
his friends) as a sort of joke, or alternate-history exercise, or whatever
you want to call it.  He wanted to explore the history of Known Space from
a conspiracy theorist's viewpoint, trying to come up with novel ways to
read "canonical" events which would yield a wildly different set of "real" 
meanings.  He succeeded brilliantly.  Having read DiF, I'll never look at
Known Space quite the same way again. 

> Perhaps this was a notion Niven was just playing with, so we should 
> not count it as canonical for Known Space.

"Down in Flames" is the very *opposite* of canonical.  Ummm...let's
see...*heretical*!  Yeah, that's the ticket!  Burn the heretic!  BURN! 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:41:21 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

>> Seems like even an unstreamlined ship should be able to come in this
>> way.  With contragravity, it wouldn't even need to come in jets first,
>> it could just float with the contragravity tuned to give the ship just
>> enough weight to pull it down at a reasonable pace.  If it's reasonable
>> armored, it could come in pretty fast if it wanted... just turn the
>> cg on and thrust as you near the ground to brake.

> I've always had a problem with the rules over this issue.  
> The closest I've been able to rationalize it is that 
> 'unstreamlined' ships simply have no landing equipment 
> (and I ignore the rule about them being able to land > on
> vacuum worlds).  In my campaign, unstreamlined ships must 
> use shuttle-to-surface passenger/cargo transfer or Starport 
> docking.  

I couldn't find the reference again, but FFS mentions that a ship 
achieves hypersonic speeds when ascending to and landing from orbit.
If this involves going through an atmosphere, any part that offers
excessive resistance to airflow is going to get hot and take damage.
Hence the need for at least some streamlining.






  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:41:27 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Building (Oxygen)

A couple more thoughts on the previous subject...

In an environment saturated with hydrogen, the elements we want forming
macromolecules by combining with each other have some tendency to combine
with hydrogen instead. While Hydrogen is good for life, (it makes its
compounds volatile liquids and gases instead of intractable solids) it is
possible to have too much of a good thing. 
I enjoyed Hal Clement's "Mission of Gravity", but his hydrogen-breathing
Mesklinites are unlikely at best. Beings on a hydrogen-rich world would be
trying to eliminate excess hydrogen, and would require energy to do it.

For this reason, I consider the middle-hydrogen worlds as the most
favorable places for life to flourish.

Planets that cannot hold their hydrogen with gravity are likely to lose it
from its compounds as well, especially if they are in inner orbit zones.
Ultraviolet light can dissasociate the molecules, liberating hydrogen,
which then leaks away, enriching the planet in the less volatile elements.
For possibilities of life, this is mostly a Good Thing.

For purposes of investigating biochemistry, I will add one element at a
time to the mix. Next on the list is oxygen.

Oxygen

Oxygen is the third most abundant element in the (known) galaxy, and its
principal compound with hydrogen is therefore probably the most abundant
compound. (this is good news for us water-users).
The bad news is the ancient spaceman's lament: water, water, everywhere,
but not a drop to drink. Stars are far to hot for water to exist as a
compound. It's probably present in the deep layers of gas giants, but
that's no place for critters with notions of space travel to go looking for
it. If you don't mind it being strictly a mineral, you can go to the outer
zones of solar systems. If you bring it in to warm it up, land it quick
before it sublimes like dry ice. Liquid water is rare and precious.

Free Hydrogen and oxygen will not coexist: given between a microsecond or a
few thousand years, depending on conditions, they will form water. So, as
far these two elements alone go, you can have water in a hydrogen
atmosphere, or water in an oxygen atmosphere. (The water may of course be
solid, liquid, or vapor)
Life can reverse the combining tendency and split water, (given an energy
supply) but won't do it without a good reason. In hydrogen rich
environments, water is the best source of oxygen, while in hydrogen poor
environments, the hydrogen is wanted. Terran photosynthesis is an example
of this second process.

Life's foolish preference for water in its liquid state restricts it to a
fairly small zone of world temperature and size. Maybe it's time to bring
in another player: nitrogen.
   

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:01:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>

[snip]

> Actually, other than the forces generated in the process of "turning"
> the ship, the vector will be the same at all times. Because the main
> drive only pushes in one direction. The "steering jets" or attitude
> thrusters, or whatever aren't anywhere *near* as powerful.

That depends on which version of the the rules we apply.  Admittedly, all
the basic books refer to ships turning over, but in (I believe)
the Starship Operators Handbook, they were pretty specific about the
directions and the amounts of thrust a M-Drive could generate.
Regardless, if you advance the technology for steering jets and attitude
thrusters proportional to the technology for the main drive, you end up
with some pretty powerful little jets, capable of spinning a ship pretty
rapidly (the only way to get effective manuever/evasion against agile,
intelligent seeker missiles).

>
> Also you don't "bank" to make turns in space. The movies and TV are
> almost uniformly wrong about that. Instead, when you are making a turn,
> during the "turn", your main drive is pointing directly *away* from the
> center of the "curve".

Granted, I didn't think that through very well.  I was attempting to imply
continued thrust through an attitude change, which would minimize some of
the forces I think would be generated.

>
> If you were going "north" (coasting) and wanted to change to going due
> "west" at the same speed, you'd point the nose of the ship southwest,
> and fire the engines until you were moving east. Vector addition is
> funny stuff.

However, if you are going "north" and the computer decides that the
optimum evasion solution is going to be 15% thrust "southwest" coupled
with a 15 degree/second spin for 5 seconds to bring a masked battery to
bear, you'd best have either good mechanical restraints or intertial
compensation to keep you off the viewscreen!

- --------------------------------------------
Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy and go well with Brie!

Douglas@Teleport.Com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
Networking
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:08:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Deckplan layout

On 22 Nov 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >When you take a curve [in a car], you go to one side or the other.  Same on
> ships.  As
> >soon as a vertical deckplan ship makes a hard turn to come about, any
> >hallways are now open elevator shafts.
>
> Actually, no.  When you maneuver in space, the thrust is mainly along the
> axis of the maneuver drive.  Spinning the ship will produce centripetal
> accelerations, but these will not be as significant.  Remember, Traveller
> uses a realistic vector movement system - not WWII dogfights in space.

I guess I don't see what is so unrealistic about WWII dogfights in space.
They were realistic then, and in Vietnam, and in Korea, and in Desert
Storm.  The only difference is that the technology keeps improving, making
them more and more extreme.  And having served on board a Navy ship, I've seen
(and felt) the "normal" manuevers that are used at sea to simulate such things
as avoiding a torpedo, maneuvers that I think would very much apply to space
combat, but with a third dimesion added as well.  You do what you have to
to save the ship, and clean up the mess later!

[snip]

- --------------------------------------------
Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy and go well with Brie!

Douglas@Teleport.Com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
Networking
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 22 Nov 1996 22:05:40 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Down In Flames (Kzinti)

>Perhaps this was a notion Niven was just playing with, so we should 
>not count it as canonical for Known Space.

Everything presented in "Down In Flames" in non-canonical for Known Space. 
It was an exercise Niven did, partly at the instigation of Harlan Ellison (I
think) as a way of ending Known Space (he was tired of writing in it).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:14:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Thad Coons wrpte
> > I've always had a problem with the rules over this issue.
> > The closest I've been able to rationalize it is that
> > 'unstreamlined' ships simply have no landing equipment
> > (and I ignore the rule about them being able to land on
> > vacuum worlds).  In my campaign, unstreamlined ships must
> > use shuttle-to-surface passenger/cargo transfer or Starport
> > docking.
>
> I couldn't find the reference again, but FFS mentions that a ship
> achieves hypersonic speeds when ascending to and landing from orbit.
> If this involves going through an atmosphere, any part that offers
> excessive resistance to airflow is going to get hot and take damage.
> Hence the need for at least some streamlining.
>

Yes, but why?  If you have a reactionless M-Drive capable of 1-G thrust,
and are launching from a world that has a gravity well of .9 G, then you
are going to lift whether you are streamlined or not.  Ditto for re-entry.
There is no reason, except to save time, why you have to make a hot
reentry or take-off...is there?

 --------------------------------------------
Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy and go well with Brie!

Douglas@Teleport.Com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MSPS: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation,
Networking
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:30:32 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty (sort of)

In a message dated 96-11-22 15:01:36 EST, it was written:

> That they put Ensign Kim in charge on the Voyager in a recent episode
>  seems to me a sign of desperation.


That they AIRED that episode of Voyager seems to me to be a sign of
desperation.  What a stinkburger.  Everything good in that episode was lifted
from ST:IV "The Voyage Home," and everything bad (most of the episode) from
the depths of Hell.  To make this somewhat Traveller related, thank God (aka
Marc Miller) that Traveller has avoided time travel as a plot device
like...like...like Voyager avoids original writing.
<Steps off Soapbox>

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain
"I never met an original idea I didn't like."--- Tim Peter

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:55:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: [none]

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Joseph Heck wrote:

> Getting down to the details, we started to buy a case of ammo for our 
> shipboard shotguns before our party started off on this safari... the only
> problem was, none of the T4 books talk about ammo prices that we could find!
> 
> Guns yes, ammo not to be found.
> 
> Any ideas?

Joe,

I got in touch with the folks at Authority Publishing, and here are the 
costs for ammos of various types:

10 Shells                                =  1% of the cost of the weapon
 1 Clip (Empty)                          =  1% of the cost of the weapon
 1 Laser Weapon Battery Pack Recharge    =  1% of the cost of the weapon
 1 Laser Weapon Battery Pack Replacement = 10% of the cost of the weapon


Hope this helps,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #686
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Traveller-digest     Saturday, November 23 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 687



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cosmic Chemistry
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Various Jump Questions
Re: House Rules: Active Duty (sort of)
Re: "Jewish " system engineer
re: Re: World building (Hydrogen)
Re: Trade Commodities
Re: Re: Re: Deckplan layout
Re: K'kree and Virus
Re: Search for the Ancients, hint book desired
Re: K'kree and Virus
Re: "Jewish " system engineer
Re: K'kree and Virus
Re: Meat is Murder (Was: K'kree and Virus)
Re: Gravitics
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:51:42 -0700
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cosmic Chemistry

> Date:          Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:13:55 -0500
> From:          Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>

> The chemical composition of this region of the galaxy imposes
> some limits on what can be plausibly expected in environments 
> of aliens. 

   [...rest of article escapes to brevity-space...]


A good, if a little dated, article on this (what sort of atmospheres 
planets are likely to start with, and how life, using various 
elements or compounds to live on, would change things) was penned by 
Asimov in the essay "Planets Have an Air About Them" (reprinted in his 
_Only_A_Trillion_ collection).



- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:51:42 -0700
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

> Subject:       Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
> From:          shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> 
> "Vertical" ships won't be landing horizontally like the shuttle.
> They'll be coming in tail first like the DC-X. And sitting down under
> power, "jets" first. Takes less time, and less space. Also tends to
> discourage folks from boobytrapping the landing area if you have a
> reaction drive. :-)

   I expect no starships are going to be landing like the shuttle.  
Consider that the common Fat Trader masses 2400 tonnes, empty.  This 
is 30x the shuttles mass (similar wingspan at ~30m), and 6x that of a 
747.  It's a brick with stabilizing fins (though a step up from the 
Free and Far Traders).  I expect that except for specialized craft, all 
starships will be VTOL, or require interface craft if contragravity 
is not available.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:24:15 -0800
From: "Douglas" <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Various Jump Questions

The hull of a jump capable ship has a lanthium grid or mesh covering it. 
This is what channels the energy which opens the way to jump space, and
provides the control necessary to exit jump space at a predetermined point.
 

Damage the mesh, and you decrease the amount of control you have (i.e.. in
game terms, increase the chance of a mis-jump).  Additionally, I believe
that the jump space "environment" can intrude into the ship itself if the
field is sufficiently disrupted.  I do not believe that is particularly
healthy...  I seriously doubt if any ship carries a vacc suit designed for
egress into the jump field or jump space, except maybe for a lab ship. 
(But could you convince a player that it would seriously make a difference?
 Hmmm... I feel an _ADVENTURE_ coming on!!)

- ----------
> From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Various Jump Questions
> Date: Friday, November 22, 1996 11:49 AM
> 
> This should keep everyone busy for a while.  Can somebody be spaced while
in
> J-space?  What happens to the ship if an airlock is opened?  What if a
bomb
> were planted on the ship, set to breach the hull, and didn't detonate
until
> the ship had entered J-space?  Hmmm?
> 
> Tim Peter
> <TPeterAZ@aol.com>
> "Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 20:39:13 -0500
From: HDHale@aol.com
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty (sort of)

In a message dated 96-11-22 15:01:36 EST, it was written:

> That they put Ensign Kim in charge on the Voyager in a recent episode
>  seems to me a sign of desperation.

   Kim is senior enough that he should be a lieutenant at this point,
especially when you consider how much time he has aboard Voyager.
 Unfortunately, Voyager seems to run into everybody BUT Star Fleet Command
(sort of like the Castaways of "Gillian's Island" kept having visitors but no
ride home), thus his promotion has been delayed.

>That they AIRED that episode of Voyager seems to me to be 
>a sign of desperation.  What a stinkburger.  Everything good in 
>that episode was lifted from ST:IV "The Voyage Home," and 
>everything bad (most of the episode) from the depths of Hell.

   While it was certainly not the worst episode of "Voyager" I have ever
seen, it certainly doesn't rank among the best science-fiction I've ever seen
either.  It just amazes me that substandard sci-fi like "Voyager" continues
to live off the reputation of the Star Trek/Paramount Empire, while shows
like "Space: Above and Beyond" die premature deaths.

>  To make this somewhat Traveller related, thank God (aka
>Marc Miller) that Traveller has avoided time travel as a plot device
>like...like...like Voyager avoids original writing.

   Time travel works as a plot device in sci-fi (millions of Robert Heinlein
fans can't be wrong), you just have be very careful how you employ it.  It
worked quite well in an epsiode of "Deep Space Nine" last year (the one which
explained the infamous Roswell Incident).  

   The basic plot of "Voyager" is suppose to be one of travelling through a
region of space where no Federation types have ever been before.  The
"Voyager" episode in question violated the basic plot.  The script writers
for "Voyager" also routinely violate Star Trek canon (i.e. the Warp 10
"barrier" nonsense), have destroyed enough shuttle craft to convince me the
Voyager is in fact aircraft carrier, and have killed enough crew for me to
conclude that they must be cloning replacements.  None of these things have
helped the show's popularity with long time Star Trek fans.  

   Things to think about when people talk about doing away with any
established canon, and changing the basic game mechanics to fit new story
lines....

Regards,

Harold (who deftly avoided any discussion of politics, including the sighting
of a whale near the Great Barrier Reef which turned out to be President
Clinton on a snorkeling trip....)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:26:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: "Jewish " system engineer

 
> > Artificial Gravity check out the book "Tapping the Zero-Point Energy" by
> > Moray B King.  He is a jewish slystems engineer.  He has some very good

What're jewish systems, and why do they need engineering?  Yeesh.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:09:43 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Re: World building (Hydrogen)

Neil Taylor says:

> the interesting question about hydrogen and large planets is the 
> extra-solar planets detected,all of which (so far) are huge (Jupiter 
> ++) - but several orbit thier suns well inside the orbit of Mercury 
> (equivalent). 

> These planets may still be large enough to trap hydrogen, but be
> glowing hot with it - o
> they may be enourmous rockballs like a mega-Mercury.

> We await progress from the astronomers to resolve that one (someday..)

The various planet detection groups that have found these planets have a 
strong selection bias for things close to their star, and for massive objects - 
they haven't yet reached the point where they could detect Jupiter at jupiter-
distance around another star. So gas giants close to primaries probably
aren't *common* - just not-unheard-of. Various models now exist for either
(a) forming a gas giant at that distance or (b) moving one in from the outer
solar system to the inner.

Bruce
P.S. By an odd conincidence, as I type this I'm sitting in the control room of
the telescope (Lick Observatory 3-m) where most of the extrasolar planets have
been discovered.

It's raining.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 21:08:58 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Trade Commodities

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Don't forget that unlike cargo hauling on earth there are at least three
> *extra* handling categories:
> 
> "Do not expose to vacuum"
> "Must be kept under acceleration at all times" (ie no free fall!)
> "Max accelleration limit of XX g"
> 
> There are probably high and low pressure limits, not just "no vacuum".
> 
> Most agro products will be "Do not expose to vacuum!". And many will
> have max acceleration limits. Consider what happens to watermelons at,
> say, 3 g...

How about limitations of exposure to other materials, like metals,
certain gases, etc. (research the joys of plutonium) or *requiring*
exposure?

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1996 03:06:51 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Deckplan layout

>I guess I don't see what is so unrealistic about WWII dogfights in space.
>They were realistic then, and in Vietnam, and in Korea, and in Desert
>Storm.  The only difference is that the technology keeps improving, making
>them more and more extreme.  

They are realistic IN ATMOSPHERE.  

An airplane is acted on by four forces: (i) the thrust of its engines, (ii)
the drag caused by friction, (iii) the pull of gravity, and (iv) the lift
provided by its wings.  In space, the force of gravity can be essentially
ignored, there is no atmosphere, and thus effectively the only force is that
of the manuever drive.

When you change direction in an aircraft, virtually all of the necessary
force is provided by the atmosphere acting on the wings.  When you change
direction in space, you spin the ship to point the drive in a different
direction, then thrust.  If you are not thrusting, you are in free fall. 
When you are thrusting, the internal thrust vector is always along the same
axis.  If you want to slow down, you spin the ship so the drive points in the
direction you are travelling, then thrust.  The internal acceleration you
feel will be in the same (local) direction and when you want to speed up.

It is difficult to give this lecture without a blackboard :-)  I don't blame
you for feeling that what you have experienced on earth applies in space -
most of my students make the same mistake.  (Hell, look at how long it took
to discover Newton's Laws of Motion.)  

I haven't seen a science fiction movie or TV show that got it right.  A good
book for space combat sequences would be _Footfall_ - another one would be
_The Stone Dogs_ (about the only good part of that book, too).


>And having served on board a Navy ship, I've seen
>(and felt) the "normal" manuevers that are used at sea to simulate such
things
>as avoiding a torpedo, maneuvers that I think would very much apply to space
>combat, but with a third dimesion added as well.  

Again, a ship changes direction using the force of the water on the hull.  In
space this doesn't apply.


>You do what you have to
>to save the ship, and clean up the mess later!

No arguments.  But this may well mean repairing damage while under attack. 
Being able to repair damage while maneuvering will increase your
survivability.  Read the last couple of chapters of _Footfall_: having been
in the Navy, you'll probably appreciate them, and they will give you a
graphic feeling for damage control in space.

- -----

One other point.  If you design a ship with vertical orientation, you can use
one less G of compensation.  Ie. if the ship is accelerating at 3G, you need
only counteract 2G (the remaining G is your internal gravity, which you don't
need to generate artificially).  If you are using fuel-efficient drives that
can burn all the time (ie. T4 reactionless drives not TNE HEPlar) then this
will save you expense and power.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 21:21:33 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: K'kree and Virus

TPeterAZ@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-11-19 23:22:37 EST, K.C. Komosky writes:
> 
> > Yes, I like the K'kree (although I love a good steak now and then).
> >
> 
> Hell, that's WHY I like the K'Kree. ;-)
> 
> Firing up the grill,
> Tim Peter
> <TPeterAZ@aol.com>
> "Never let your ethics get in the way of a good meal."--- Slogan for new
> Mk'Kree Deluxe

Oh, geez, you are SICK! I can't believe this! How could you say
something
so disgusting?!?

*Everybody* knows you're suppose to deep-fry 'em.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 21:29:15 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Search for the Ancients, hint book desired

Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus wrote:
> 
> Yo Folkes,
>     A friend of mine is progressing through the Search for Ancients Computer
> game. He is stuck and is wondering if there is a hint book or something
> available. Anyone know?
>       Cheers,
>             Jo

Yep. Want a copy (I've had some practice in mailings to Ireland)? ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 22:54:03 -0500
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: K'kree and Virus

David Smart wrote:
> 
> TPeterAZ@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 96-11-19 23:22:37 EST, K.C. Komosky writes:
> >
> > > Yes, I like the K'kree (although I love a good steak now and then).
> > >
> >
> > Hell, that's WHY I like the K'Kree. ;-)
> >
> > Firing up the grill,
> > Tim Peter
> > <TPeterAZ@aol.com>
> > "Never let your ethics get in the way of a good meal."--- Slogan for new
> > Mk'Kree Deluxe
> 
> Oh, geez, you are SICK! I can't believe this! How could you say
> something
> so disgusting?!?
> 
> *Everybody* knows you're suppose to deep-fry 'em.

Well... as pot roast they ain't bad either! :)

- -- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email)    peterb@superlink.net (play Email)%%
%% "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"  %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:59:49 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: "Jewish " system engineer

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> > > Artificial Gravity check out the book "Tapping the Zero-Point Energy" by
> > > Moray B King.  He is a jewish slystems engineer.  He has some very good

I'm more curious what a slystem is,  what it does and hwow a jewish one differs from a 
gentile one.
> 
> What're jewish systems?

They are the ones with the yamulka!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 00:06:39 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: K'kree and Virus

David Smart wrote:
> 
> TPeterAZ@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 96-11-19 23:22:37 EST, K.C. Komosky writes:
> >
> > > Yes, I like the K'kree (although I love a good steak now and then).
> > >
> >
> > Hell, that's WHY I like the K'Kree. ;-)
> >
> > Firing up the grill,
> > Tim Peter
> > <TPeterAZ@aol.com>
> > "Never let your ethics get in the way of a good meal."--- Slogan for new
> > Mk'Kree Deluxe
> 
> Oh, geez, you are SICK! I can't believe this! How could you say
> something
> so disgusting?!?
> 
> *Everybody* knows you're suppose to deep-fry 'em.

I ate my K'kree with a fine chanty and some fava beans...fih fih fih fih fih

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 00:08:37 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Meat is Murder (Was: K'kree and Virus)

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> Hmm...first contact between K'kree and Aslan would be fun to watch...
> (from a safe distance)

Unfortunately the midpoint of the area between their two territories is smack dab in the 
Third Imperium, good seats at a holocaust are hard to get

How about the K'kree J-4 Route, it leads towards Julian Space...and the VARGR
(oooh, now there is a possible future war)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:40:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gravitics

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 96-11-22 07:10:33 EST, Leonard writes:
>
>> And each additional meter of movement takes another 4 million MJ.
>
> Don't you mean "meter of acceleration."

To be totally clear, it would be "meter moved while under acceleration".

>  Once the planetoid is moving, it should continue to move at a velocity of
> one meter per second, but will only accelerate at a rate of one meter per
> second per second if you continue to add thrust.  Right?

Except that after moving a meter, it isn't moving at one meter per
second. 

D=.5 at^2
2D=at^2
2D/a=t^2
sqrt(2D/a)=t

Since a=1, it takes sqrt(2) seconds to move that first meter, which
means it is moving at sqrt(2) meters per second (v=at). And the energy
checks out.
e=.5mv^2
e=.5m(sqrt(2)^2)
e=.5m(2)
e=m

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:58:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, other than the forces generated in the process of "turning"
>> the ship, the vector will be the same at all times. Because the main
>> drive only pushes in one direction. The "steering jets" or attitude
>> thrusters, or whatever aren't anywhere *near* as powerful.
>
> That depends on which version of the the rules we apply.  Admittedly, all
> the basic books refer to ships turning over, but in (I believe)
> the Starship Operators Handbook, they were pretty specific about the
> directions and the amounts of thrust a M-Drive could generate.

I have some problems with what I've heard of that.

> Regardless, if you advance the technology for steering jets and attitude
> thrusters proportional to the technology for the main drive, you end up
> with some pretty powerful little jets, capable of spinning a ship pretty
> rapidly (the only way to get effective manuever/evasion against agile,
> intelligent seeker missiles).

But turning is *still* limited. Simply by the stresses induced in the
hull. A=4*pi^2*r/t^2 (t is rotational period)

>> If you were going "north" (coasting) and wanted to change to going due
>> "west" at the same speed, you'd point the nose of the ship southwest,
>> and fire the engines until you were moving east. Vector addition is
>> funny stuff.
>
> However, if you are going "north" and the computer decides that the
> optimum evasion solution is going to be 15% thrust "southwest" coupled
> with a 15 degree/second spin for 5 seconds to bring a masked battery to
> bear, you'd best have either good mechanical restraints or intertial
> compensation to keep you off the viewscreen!

Assume a radius of 10 meters. 15 deg/s=24 sec per revolution

a=4*pi^2*10/24^2
a=4*3.14^2*10/24^2
a=4*9.87*10/576
a=4*98.7/576
a=395/576
a=.69 m/sec or about 1/14th of a g.

You'd need a 143 meter radius to get 1 g at 15 deg/s. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:45:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:

> On 22 Nov 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
>
>>> When you take a curve [in a car], you go to one side or the other.
>>> Same on ships.  As soon as a vertical deckplan ship makes a hard
>>> turn to come about, any hallways are now open elevator shafts.

>> Actually, no.  When you maneuver in space, the thrust is mainly along the
>> axis of the maneuver drive.  Spinning the ship will produce centripetal
>> accelerations, but these will not be as significant.  Remember, Traveller
>> uses a realistic vector movement system - not WWII dogfights in space.

> I guess I don't see what is so unrealistic about WWII dogfights in
> space.  They were realistic then, and in Vietnam, and in Korea, and
> in Desert Storm.

The planes are making manuevers that aren't *possible* without an
atmosphere & gravity.

In space you don't "bank" your fighter to make a turn. Instead you
point the nose towards what will be the center of a turn, and fire the
main engine (which is at the stern).

Ditto for many other manuevers. Since you don't have an atmosphere for
the wings to "bite" into, you can't generate turning forces that way. 

You've grown up on a planetary surface and have a distorted notion of
physics. In 99.999% of the universe, you *don't* lose speed if you cut
your engines, and the *only* way to make a turn is to fire up the
engines. 

> The only difference is that the technology keeps improving, making
> them more and more extreme.

In space things are a *lot* different. Try making some manuevers with a
ship using CT's vector movement system (which is quite accurate).
You'll soon see that turns and evasion just plain don't work the same
way. 

> I've seen (and felt) the "normal" manuevers that are used at sea to
> simulate such things as avoiding a torpedo, maneuvers that I think
> would very much apply to space combat, but with a third dimesion
> added as well.  You do what you have to to save the ship, and clean
> up the mess later!

Evasion will be a lot *less* abrupt and forceful. It has to do with
things like ranges and relative velocities.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:58:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> I wrote:
>
>>> Well, if your ship is ever intended to enter atmosphere at any
>>> significant speed, I'd highly recommend the "horizontal"
>>> orientation to seriously decrease drag forces. That always seemed
>>> to me to be the obvious answer.  If you don't plan for it to ever
>>> enter atmosphere, well, design it however you want. I also never
>>> really worried too much about the size of any of the components
>>> requiring a particular orientation, either.

>> "Vertical" ships won't be landing horizontally like the shuttle.
>> They'll be coming in tail first like the DC-X. And sitting down
>> under power, "jets" first. Takes less time, and less space. Also
>> tends to discourage folks from boobytrapping the landing area if you
>> have a reaction drive. :-)

> All the way from orbit? You're going to have to enter atmosphere
> *sometime, and unless you spend an awful lot of time braking before
> then, you'll have a lot of velocity still built up when you hit air.

Not a problem. At least not with a reaction drive. The exhaust &
velocity handle any "streamlining" issues. The exhaust tends to require
the tail end of the ship to be pretty impervious to high temp plasmas
anyway.

> Also, when leaving, it helps to have wings and airframe to generate
> lift to help you out of atmosphere.

With Traveller drives the aid this gives is insignificant. Really. It
only helps ships with marginal drives. Like trying to take off from
Earth with a drive that maxes at 1 g. Anything else can just point the
nose straight up and boost. 

> I always kept the assumption that the thruster plates put out enough
> heat that it was unhealthy to be too close to the landing spot. OK,
> battle-dress Marines could manage it, but anyone with less protection
> better dig a big damned hole!

Damned if I know. I don't *like* thruster plates. They require lots of
handwaving, but don't really add anything to the game except questions
about how they work.

>>> Honestly, I never anticipated much likelihood of the artificial
>>> gravity crapping out *and* the maneuver drive continuing to
>>> function.  I'd think a safety interlock would be fairly easy to
>>> build in, just to cover that possibility.

>> That safety interlock could lose you the *ship* rather than just
>> some unlucky passengers and crew. Since the failure is most likely
>> to be combat damage, it means that a g-comp hit stops the ship. Not
>> something most folks want!

> <grin> It doesn't stop it... it just keeps it from *accelerating*.

And in combat, a *constant* velocity is just as bad as *no* velocity.
Either way you are a sitting duck!

> And if you're getting whomped on so badly that you've lost internal
> gravity, you're in deep kimchee anyway, and should probably be
> considering surrender at that point anyway.

Could be a lucky hit.

> Anyway, how *likely* is it that a ship will get hit badly enough to
> take out the internal gravity, and still have a functioning power
> plant *and* maneuver drive? I don't remember anything like that in
> any starship combat table, although I stopped with MT/High Guard, so
> if it *does* come up in FFS or something, well, never mind.  :)

I have no idea. But if it doesn't occur, it *should*. Otherwise the
g-comp system is "magic".

> Couldn't you also build a safety interlock that prevented a hit from
> taking out the grav all over the ship? "Redundant controls", or
> something like that?

Possibly. It depends on how the grav system works. And, of course, it'd
cost more. :-)

>> Do you *want* to have to go thru a bunch of pressure doors instead?
>> Regardless of *how* you lay out the ship, you need to have it
>> sectionalized for pressure. That way if you get a hole punched in
>> the hull, you only lose pressure in *part* of the ship. And you want
>> to keep the sections moderately small. So those corridors will have
>> hatches every 10 meters of so. Hatches that are either normally
>> closed, or automatically closing in case of pressure loss (and
>> probably automatically closed when you are at battle stations as
>> well).

> Every 10 meters? Good God, Leonard, you must be part owner of a hatch
> and iris valve manufacturing company!!   :)

On a big ship that means you have an entire *hectare* of deck in one
"compartment". I know people whose *house* would fit in a 10 meter
square!

> Seriously, though... yes, compartmentalization is a Good Thing.
> Especially for warships, but *some* degree is necessary for all
> ships, unless you're criminally stupid.

Well, I figure that pressure doors will be treated a lot like
watertight doors on ships, and fire doors in ships and buildings. 

> Still, in everyday operations, the horizontal layout seems more
> efficient. I'm minded of a mortgage company I used to work for, that
> had their own building, and different functions spread over all eight
> floors. We spent as much time waiting for elevators as we did doing
> anything else that might have required going to see anyone else.

I used to work in a facility that had a main corridor as wide as a
street, and over a thousand feet long. All on one level except for the
engineering offices that got added on at one end. We spent a lot of
time walking from one end of that corridor to the other. I had friends
how didn't believe that I got "enough" excercise just by walking around
at work! (1000 feet from door to office, 1000 feet *back* to cafeteria,
then back to office, then all over plant servicing computers....)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:24:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Except that being "non-airframe" your ship wouldn't be able to handle
>> things like wind gusts, much less jetstreams, clear air turbulence, and
>> all the other fun things that can swat even experienced pilots out of
>> the sky.
>
> Meaning that the ship is so flimsy that the wind would rip it apart?
> I would think that a space ship would be built relatively sturdily
> to take acceleration (which is not always in one direction), small
> meteor impacts, etc...  At least sturdy enough that a stiff wind won't
> rip parts of it off.  Also, if you have contragravity, how would you
> fall? 

Consider that winds regularly rip apart *buildings*. What do you do
when a 50 mph gust hits the nose, but not the tail? Or if you blunder
into a 300 mph jetstream. 

Airplanes are pretty strong too. And "microbursts" have been known to
drop a plane several thousand feet in *seconds*. If that happens to
you, and you are only 1500 feet up, you've just crashed.

Heck, I can't remember the number of times I've seem semis that ran
into unexpected wind gusts with bad results. Your ship will have a lot
more "sail" area. And being non-airframe, the "center of pressure" may
be nowhere *near* the center of mass. In which case your ship is not
stable at *any* speed. 

Just as the center of mass is the point about which the ship tries to
pivot when "off center" forces are applied, the center of pressure is
the point where forces from "wind" center. If the CP is at or behind
the CM *relative to the "wind"* your ship will tumble end over end or
worse.

> I agree that an
> unstreamlined ship wouldn't be able to fly very fast or maneuver
> very well at all, but it just seems silly to say that it can not
> enter the atmosphere...

It's possible to *enter* atmosphere. It's not *practical* to do so.
Your ship is *inherently* unstable with respect to wind forces
(including the *apparent* "wind" generated by your passage thru the
air). As such navigation is next to impossible.

I've had to deal with CP/CM problems in trying to design model rockets
and the like. So I do know what I'm talking about.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #687
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Traveller-digest     Saturday, November 23 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 688



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Long Way Home: First Session (NO SPOILERS)
Star Trek First Contact
Space Combat...
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re:re: Deckplan layout
RE: Xeno-psych 101 (Why is Traveller so Humano / Earth-centric ?) 
RE: Ship design and redundancy
Re: Re: Trade Commodities
Re:  Intelligence Careers
World building (Nitrogen I)
Solomani Generred Critters
World building (Nitrogen II)
CORE subsector for Gal 2.1
re: K'kree and Virus
Planet X Website now in 3D!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:42:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

In mail you write:

>> Plus the wind gust
>> might not rip off parts but it throws forces that aren't normally
>> encountered.  The pilot would constantly be trying to compensate for
>> drifts and deviations.
>
> This is actually a good point, and explains why unstreamlined ships would
> not be welcome in the atmospheric traffic patterns of civlized worlds --
> they can't control their positions reliably enough to follow the pattern,
> and thus would be a hazard to themselves and other vessels.
>
> However, on a less-populated world, with little traffic, dancing around a
> bit on the way down might not be a problem, nor would (necessarily)
> landing 500 meters away from the spot you aimed for...though the latter
> could be *very* embarrassing if you were aiming for, say, a small island
> in a swamp... :)

It's not a matter of "dancing around". The steering thrusters are
designed around the fact that the ship pivots around it's center of
mass. But wind forces depend on the *shape*, not the mass. So a wind
from the side could exert much more force ahead of the CM than behind
it. Which means that the ship would be trying to swap ends! 

Vehicles intended to be used in an atmosphere are designed (mostly) to
not have this problem. Even trucks and cars!

Vehicles designed for space aren't designed that way. They may have
large, light structures in front with small, dense structures in back.
Think of a semi designed with the "tractor" at the back (and some sort
of steering for the front wheels). And have the "trailer" (leader?)
part empty. First strong sideways wind gust will push the "trailer"
sideways, while the tractor keeps pushing it forward. Unless you are
fast on the steering, it'll go farther off center rather than pulling
back *towards* center, the way a towed load does. So you wind up
tumbling end for end. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 03:53:22 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Long Way Home: First Session (NO SPOILERS)

Well, the first session of THE LONG WAY HOME has come and gone for my group.
We finished at 1:00 AM, and unlike many other things we've done, it kept and
held their attention for the entire evening. I'm having a blast, and so are
they. I do have some questions about the adventure (for my own knowledge,
not that of the characters); If Andy Lilly and/or David Burden could e-mail
me their addresses, I'd like to ask you guys a couple of things.
                                Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 02:41:21 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Star Trek First Contact

This has absolutely nothing to do with Traveller, but I know that I'm 
not the only one on this list who likes Trek.

I saw the movie tonight, and I've got to say that it was pretty 
good--much better than Generations.

Prepare yourselves, I feel like rambling....

The Enterprise-E is a mean looking fighting machine, but I still hold 
the Enterprise-A (Kirk's movie version) as the best Enterprise.   It 
was my first love, and nothing created so far can come close to it.

I think whoever they had creating the modles for the first few movies 
does a much better job than the ships created for the new movies and 
shows.  All of my favorites came out of the first couple of Classic 
Trek yarns.  The Enterprise, the Reliant, the Klingon Bird of Prey, 
the Excelsior.  These ships blow the TNG Enterprise, Romulan War 
Bird, Voyager away.  

Another thing I like better about the old films is that a space 
battle was reminiscent of an old 1700's sailing ship fight.  Take the 
ship battles in Wrath of Khan--awesome!  In First Contact, the fight 
sceens are good, but the ships flit around like tie fighters from 
Star Wars.  This is very un-Trek.

Also, they've never been able to come up with a uniform that compares 
to the red ones used in II through VI.  Those were the first Trek 
uniforms that looked like uniforms.  I like the current ones on DS9 
and Voyager OK, and I think that the new ones in tonight's movie are 
the best so for for TNG.  But, if it were my vote, they'd still be 
wearing the red ones with the jacket and rank emblems.

I was hoping to be blown away with the new Trek movie, but I just 
wasn't.  Don't get me wrong--it is the best Trek we've seen in a 
while--but it's definitely not the Wrath of Khan or the Voyage Home 
which are my favorites.  I'll give First Contact 3 out of 5 stars, 
and I'll probably see it again.

Picard did a wonderful job.  The show looked grand.  And I liked that 
data didn't look as pastey as he did in Generations.

All in all, I recommend the movie.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 02:50:27 -0600
From: bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV)
Subject: Space Combat...

At 9:06 PM 11/22/96, Rob Prior wrote:
>I haven't seen a science fiction movie or TV show that got it right.  A good
>book for space combat sequences would be _Footfall_ - another one would be
>_The Stone Dogs_ (about the only good part of that book, too).

Babylon 5 does the most realistic 'cinematic' space combat I've seen.
The ships rotate and thrust to change direction.  They even rotate
and fire in a different direction than they're moving.  For extremely
realistic space combat, read Larry Niven.  Space combat is rare... the
weapons consist, usually, of com lasers used at short range and fusion
drive flames with a liberal sprinkling of nuclear and other bombs and
missiles.  An interesting combat sequence is an STL fight between
four Bussard ramjets over light years.  The closest the ships come
is light months and light lag is a big problem...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 02:50:30 -0600
From: bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

A computer would be very fast on the steering and a simple feedback
control system which monitored the position and rotation of the
ship could compensate quite easily.  Programming it to work in an
atmosphere would be simple...

Also, I didn't get the impression that unstreamlined automatically
means open structure... you can still have a compact non-streamlined,
non-airframe...  Most warships aren't going to have lots of flimsy
projections, for example... the first near miss by a nuke would wipe
them all off.

At 9:42 PM 11/22/96, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Vehicles designed for space aren't designed that way. They may have
>large, light structures in front with small, dense structures in back.
>Think of a semi designed with the "tractor" at the back (and some sort
>of steering for the front wheels). And have the "trailer" (leader?)
>part empty. First strong sideways wind gust will push the "trailer"
>sideways, while the tractor keeps pushing it forward. Unless you are
>fast on the steering, it'll go farther off center rather than pulling
>back *towards* center, the way a towed load does. So you wind up
>tumbling end for end.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 03:02:50 -0600
From: bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV)
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

If the ship accelerates to 15 degrees per second in one second,
though, at 10 meters, you get .26 g's.  A quarter g in random
directions could be emberrasing... especially if it happens to
toss you up, off the deck.  A large war ship could easily
generate half or a whole g in random directions.

At 7:58 PM 11/22/96, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>a=.69 m/sec or about 1/14th of a g.
>
>You'd need a 143 meter radius to get 1 g at 15 deg/s.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 03:02:53 -0600
From: bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

At 9:24 PM 11/22/96, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Consider that winds regularly rip apart *buildings*. What do you do
>when a 50 mph gust hits the nose, but not the tail? Or if you blunder
>into a 300 mph jetstream.

Well, most buildings that I've seen or heard of that get ripped apart
weren't in great shape to start with.  All the big (read: large sail
area) buildings in Houston regularly survive hurricanes.

>Airplanes are pretty strong too. And "microbursts" have been known to
>drop a plane several thousand feet in *seconds*. If that happens to
>you, and you are only 1500 feet up, you've just crashed.

If you're moving at 300 mph through the air and the wind changes or
the pressure changes, your lift will change quickly.  If you're
floating, then it won't.  For example, hot air balloons rarely go
jumping through the air...  A slow moving CG ship would maneuver
more like a dirigible than an airplane.

>Heck, I can't remember the number of times I've seem semis that ran
>into unexpected wind gusts with bad results. Your ship will have a lot
>more "sail" area. And being non-airframe, the "center of pressure" may
>be nowhere *near* the center of mass. In which case your ship is not
>stable at *any* speed.

Again, semis are moving.  Also, they don't often get tossed off the
road.  Maybe very rarely in high winds.

>Just as the center of mass is the point about which the ship tries to
>pivot when "off center" forces are applied, the center of pressure is
>the point where forces from "wind" center. If the CP is at or behind
>the CM *relative to the "wind"* your ship will tumble end over end or
>worse.

Most ships have maneuvering thrusters that could compensate for
any off-center orces.  No problem.  If the ship starts to rotate
clockwise, apply thrust counter-clockwise.  If the ship is moving
slowly, then it's not going to go dancing around the sky.

>> I agree that an
>> unstreamlined ship wouldn't be able to fly very fast or maneuver
>> very well at all, but it just seems silly to say that it can not
>> enter the atmosphere...
>
>It's possible to *enter* atmosphere. It's not *practical* to do so.
>Your ship is *inherently* unstable with respect to wind forces
>(including the *apparent* "wind" generated by your passage thru the
>air). As such navigation is next to impossible.
>
>I've had to deal with CP/CM problems in trying to design model rockets
>and the like. So I do know what I'm talking about.

I assume that these rockets are accelerating hard and moving very
fast?  If I were going to bring a big, lumbering, unstreamlined
ship into an atmosphere, I wouldn't accelerate hard or move very
fast.  I'd take my time drifting down and move very slowly...
I would, in fact, behave as little like a rocket as possible.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:42:46 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re:re: Deckplan layout

Leonard M. Erickson wrote:


>
>In mail you write:
>
[chainsaw noises]
>> I guess I don't see what is so unrealistic about WWII dogfights in
>> space.  They were realistic then, and in Vietnam, and in Korea, and
>> in Desert Storm.
>
>The planes are making manuevers that aren't *possible* without an
>atmosphere & gravity.
>
>In space you don't "bank" your fighter to make a turn. Instead you
>point the nose towards what will be the center of a turn, and fire the
>main engine (which is at the stern).
>
>Ditto for many other manuevers. Since you don't have an atmosphere for
>the wings to "bite" into, you can't generate turning forces that way.
>
>You've grown up on a planetary surface and have a distorted notion of
>physics. In 99.999% of the universe, you *don't* lose speed if you cut
>your engines, and the *only* way to make a turn is to fire up the
>engines.
>
[chainsaw noises]

        Leonard is, as usual, quite right.  Something the original poster
might want to do is to pick up a copy of Microsoft's Space Simulator.

[we interrupt this post to warn readers that Space Simulator is a typically
lousy Microsoft product: it does not run under W95 unless you use a DOS
boot disk, and is gravely deficient in many ways.  For example, the
autopilot's is not able to compute orbits; rather it does direct routes
under full thrust with turnover all the way, and has to do a whole bunch of
corrections after the midpoint to compensate for the destination's
planetary motion.  As well, it is incapable of handling Hohmann orbits.
And then there's the problem of it not letting you control time compression
while in autopilot...  So please do not consider this an endorsement.]

        It simulates the maneuvering requirements one encounters in space
rather well.  If you try and fly the ship using the same joystick and
thrust inputs as you would in a flight sim, you is going to get horribly
confused and disoriented.  You develop a good understanding of delta-v very
quickly.  Landings, using either the LEM or what they call the ATL, are
quite fun; you get a sense of the true meaning of the term "gravity well".

        It also gives you an excellent idea of the sheer scale of space.
Last summer, I did a bunch of flights with it where I would just set the
ship thrusting and leave it running in realtime, then leave for work.  I'd
come home, make the neccessary corrections, read or watch some TV, correct
again before I went to sleep, and again in the AM, etc...  and this was
just bopping around the inner Solar System.  Space is big... even when
compared to running down the street to the chemist's ;).

        On the downside, it'll completely ruin a lot of bad SF for you :).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:20:59 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Xeno-psych 101 (Why is Traveller so Humano / Earth-centric ?) 

Earl Wajenberg wrote:

>I didn't know that.  I read a great deal of Niven's Known Space series 
>but then he dropped it for a long time, and when he picked it up again,
>I didn't.  I *did* know about the Slaver War, and that the Kzinti are 
>the tnuctipun, or their descendants.

The book (A Darker Geometry, by Mark O. Martin & Gregory Benford) answers 
a number of questions posed by earlier works about Known Space.  The Kzin
aren't the tnuctipun.  According to other works I've read in the Man-Kzin wars, all
current races in the galaxy evolved from the Slavers food source (some kind of 
bacteria I think).  However there have been at least two instances where Slavers
escaped the command of death.  One, along with his family & assorted slaves
was found in orbit around Alpha Centauri.  The other was evidently found by 
the ancient Kzin, or possibly the Jotoki (before Kzinti conquered them).  It just
hinted that the Kzin knew about them, and that was the reason for their 
full scale re-engineering of their species.  I guess that the Kzin could have been
an ancient relic (say left in a stassis field) that survived.

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:17:47 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Ship design and redundancy

Chris Cox wrote:

>I sorry the way I see it is the Shuttle is a craft and it goes into
>space.  This makes it a spacecraft.  The fact that it's not truly
>reusable or even if it was a missile, which it isn't, has nothing to
>do with whether or not the Shuttle is a spacecraft.  BTW the Shuttle
>isn't a missile because generally missiles are weapons.  Minuteman,
>Peacekeeper, Sidewinder, Maverick, etc. are missiles.  At best you
>might consider the Shuttle as being only a rocket like Titan, Delta
>and Saturn.

The point that I should have been trying to make is that Traveller ships 
are reusable and generally take everything with them, be it to orbit, or the 
next star system.  The Shuttle isn't a Space Ship in those terms, because
it doesn't even carry around it's manuever drives once it gets to orbit, yeah
sure the SSME's (space shuttle main engine's) are there, but have no fuel.
In a way it could be similar to a craft that uses an external jump grid 
(somebody mentioned something like this a few weeks ago) to send the 
ship to the next 1 parsec grid, with the grid staying behind.  Now you have
a ship without a jump drive that travelled to another star - system, but it 
still isn't a Star Ship.  The Shuttle likewise has enough fuel for it's orbital
manuevering engines & reentry burn, but couldn't get itself into space 
without external boosters & drop tank.  Once you have a shuttle that can
get to orbit (preferably without throwing anything except fuel overboard), 
refuel and fly to another celestial body, then you have a Space Ship IMHO
because it has the ability to travel between planets or moons.

I kind of break down the differences this way:

Ground to LEO Transport - 	any vehicle capable of taking a cargo from the 
				ground to low earth orbit.  This doesn't have to 
				be reusable.

Orbital Shuttle -			any vehicle even partially reusable that can 
				deliver a cargo from ground to LEO or LEO
				to ground.  This vehicle is at least partially 
				reusable.  Vehicles with short turnaround
				times are preferable (more missions = 
				more money faster).  

Space Craft - 		any unmanned vehicle that has the ability to 
				fly to another planet.  Gallileo or Voyager 
				would fall under this category.

Space Ship - 		any vehicle that can fly between planets inside 
				of a star system.  Any Ground to LEO Transport
				or Shuttle would qualify if they meet this requirement.
				(simply orbiting the same body & landing on it again
				doesn't count).  The portions of the Apollo missions
				that went to the moon are classified in this manner.

Star Ship - 			any vehicle that has the ability to propell itself
				from star to star.  Most Star Ships are also Space
				Ships.  You could probably argue that an XBoat
				isn't a Space Ship under this description and be
				correct.

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1996 16:18:59 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Trade Commodities

>Yes, Rob, and Thank You.  Your works are the basis which I am using and
>are probably enough for anyone who wishes to come up with more specific
>information "on the fly"
>
>My mmission is to take it one level down;  So instead of a result of
>"animal fibers" I get a result of "Acadian Rams wool, Spooled".

Actually, I think I may need to rewrite my explanation.  I never intended
this system to be used "on the fly".  It was supposed to be used to create
trade tables, just as the animal encounter system creates animal encounter
tables.  I don't roll animals on the fly, and I don't roll trade goods on the
fly.

In fact, you are doing (I think) exactly what I intended!  That is, taking
the results created by the table _as a starting point_ and detailing them. 
Perfect!  This is what I do for all my trade goods.  (And, incidentally, all
my animals as well.)  My players _never_ have a hold full of "animal fibers";
instead, they have an assortment of "Gruntle Clippings, untreated".  (In the
same way, they are never attacked by a "10 kg gatherer", but instead a prime
specimen of the "Lesser Frumious Wombat" who has mistaken their satellite
uplink for a receptive female.)

>Obviously, some product (like Zilan Eiswein; see The Traveller Adventure)
>are specific to specific planets.  This may somehow be reflected.

In my game, most products (other than bulk commodities) are planet-specific. 
Remember that _every planet_ is supposed to have its own trade table, and
that every good is supposed to have a name (ie. not "bulk carbohydrate", but
"breadroot" or "yeast-cake" or "pressed purple algae" or...)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 96 10:46:06 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Re:  Intelligence Careers

- --------Begin Quote----------
In a message dated 96-11-21 21:13:43 EST, Tim Reynolds writes:

> My only problem is that I think I 
>  would raise the acceptance roll to a 7 or so.

I see no problem with that.  Makes a certain degree of sense that
Intelligence would be drawn from the "best of the best," as it were.

Then Rich Ostorero wrote:

> I'd suggest, however, that the MI characters recieve a new skill (or an
old
>  one, depending upon how plugged into old Paranioa Press supps you are).
The
>  skill is Intelligence Analysis (specialty: Military), which I define as
the
>  ability to analyze data with an eye to MI value. IA(Mil) is the military
>  equivalent of Criminolgy (the ability to analyze crime scenes for
pertinent
>  data).
>  
>  Generic Intelligence Analysis skill might also be available to pure
Agents.

Very cool.  I wasn't aware this existed, but I absolutely feel it should be
used.  I may have to rewrite some of the tables.
- -------End Quote-------

Actually, Generic Intelligence Analysis and Intelligence Analysis are only
two small parts of the Intelligence picture (the "tip of the iceberg", so
to speak).  If you're interested in creating a more accurate version of the
Intelligence career path, then the following skills are absolutely
essential:
  1.  Electronic Intelligence Analysis - the study of noncommunications
electronic emissions.  Decyphering the purpose and operations of enemy
sensor systems.
  2.  Communications Intelligence Analysis - the study of enemy electronic
signals related to communications.  Includes the study of enemy
communications encryption systems, telemetry, and instrumentation systems.
  3.  Technical Analysis - the study and exploitation of enemy technology. 
  4.  Linguistics - the study of the enemy's language.
      Psycholinguistics - the study of enemy psychology by studying their
language.
  5.  Infiltration - the gathering of intelligency by infiltrating enemy
bases.  Also called "HUMINT".
  6.  Intelligence Analysis - putting together all of the above information
in order to build "the big picture".

There are many other branches of Intelligence gathering, I'm sure, and
there are probably techniques that our friends at the CIA and No Such
Agency know about that I haven't covered here, but that should do for
gaming purposes.

Hope this helps,
Jeff Kazmierski
Naval Architect (Traveller) and Intelligence Analyst (USAF) at Large

- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\        "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________odysseus@novia.net

Life begins at '030, fun starts at '040, impotence starts at '86.
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 12:09:07 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: World building (Nitrogen I)

Nitrogen

(In which ammonia-dwellers find the universe is biased against them.)

Nitrogen is third among the Big Four, and is likely to be found 
just about anywhere. Just as oxygen does, nitrogen combines with hydrogen.
The product is ammonia, and this is nitrogen's major 
source. 
Because of their combining tendencies, if you only had those two elements,
you would a choice of ammonia with excess hydrogen, or 
ammonia with excess nitrogen. Nitrogen, like oxygen, is gaseous.

Nitrogen does not have strong combining tendencies with
oxygen. Nitrogen oxides can be formed, but they require an 
input of energy. They are not major components of natural 
atmospheres under anything like earth-like conditions of 
temperature and pressure, and especially not 
in thin atmospheres.

Part of the bias is that nitrogen and ammonia with it are less 
abundant in the first place than oxygen and water are. If that 
wasn't bad enough, ammonia has a smaller molecular weight than 
water, so water sticks to planets better. Even worse, if cool 
your planet down, water condenses and freezes out first, 
while ammonia is still floating around in the upper atmosphere.
Worst of all, it is more easily broken up by ultraviolet light 
than water is leaving only the nitrogen gas behind.

Once you try introducing free oxygen into the system, however, 
the bias really begins to bite. First of all, you can forget 
about ammonia oceans with oxygen atmospheres. The oxygen gobbles 
up ammonia's hydrogen leaving you with water and nitrogen.
(Sound familiar, Terrans?)
This leaves you with a limited set of choices for three-element 
planetary envelopes. Type 1 is water-and-ammonia in hydrogen. 
Type 2 is water-and-ammonia in Nitrogen. Type 3 is water in
nitrogen-and-oxygen.
In the first two, you can guess which component, water or 
ammonia, is most likely to dominate. If you guessed ammonia, 
try again.
Overall, then, the universe is not kind to ammonia-lovers.
However, all is not lost. One of the Big four isn't vanquished 
all that easily. Terra itself had an early atmosphere, circa 
the orgin of life, without free oxygen, which suggests a type 1 
or type 2 atmosphere: Various lines of evidence suggest type 2 as 
more likely. Make the earth a little bit bigger, and further out, or
turn down the sun a tad...
Furthermore, ammonia is quite soluble in liquid water, which could help
preserve it. Also, water and ammonia have different temperature ranges
where they are liquid: If the water freezes out, ammonia oceans become
possible. These temperature ranges are also sensitive to atmospheric
pressure, and dissolved substances: but I am not so certain about the
details.

   

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 12:09:00 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Solomani Generred Critters

Lewis Roberts writes

>> Hi, In Solomani&Aslan, it mentions that the Solomani have 
>> uplifted numerous species. I forget the exact number but it was 
>> over 20. (I think)  I have always wondered which species these were. 

>> Anyone have any other ideas?

Horses or donkeys, bird species such as parrots, and octopi.

Thad Coons
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sapience/

  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 12:09:13 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: World building (Nitrogen II)

The nitrogen gas present in type 2 and 3 environments is 
chemically quite sluggish, and there are two 
major ways organisms can incorporate it.

There are Terran bacteria which metabolize ammonia, releasing 
nitrogen gas and water, taking advantage of the reaction discussed
in Nitrogen I. If this reaction were reversed by connecting it to an
energy-generating mechanism like that of photosynthesis, it might 
provide a substitute for the oxygen-powered combustion reactions 
used in terran life.

The other process is used by terran life, and involves using nitrogen
oxides. Although these require energy to produce, Lightning provides a
natural source. Also, some plants are capable of fixing nitrogen
biochemically, though at some cost. Nitrogen oxides react with
water to form nitric acid and nitrous acide, giving nitrates and 
nitrites. 
Terran life uses these to store nitrogen in a more tractable form than
nitrogen gas, but in an environment where free oxygen is in short supply,
the nitrates and nitrites make an excellent way to store oxygen. The
chemical energy and oxygen stored in nitrates are in fact used by some
terran bacteria to support their life processes. Plants which make use of
nitrates and nitrites have ways to controllably oxidize them to the 
amines they use in proteins, and these reactions are in principle
reversible.

A plausible basis for an alien biochemistry would be for plantlike
organisms to photosynthetically produce ammonia and oxygen from nitrogen 
and water, and instead of releasing the oxygen, incorporate it with 
nitrogen into nitrates.
Animals eat the plants containing ammonium nitrates, and slowly release its
explosive energy, to power their life processes, returning nitrogen and
water to the environment.
Variant are possible, depending on whether ammonia must be generated 
or is available in the environment, and whether nitrates are available 
in the environment or must be generated.
Would this biochemistry be alien? yes. Impossible? Not necessarily. Its
components are known to exist. Rare, or abundant? Insufficent data.

On type 1 worlds, life is under the necessity to expel the excess hydrogen
from both water and ammonia; a considerable handicap for life.

However attractive this possibility might be, a combination of hydrogen,
oxygen, and nitrogen alone cannot give us the large and varied molecules
and macromolecules that are characteristic of life. For this, we have to
have something like the last of the big four... carbon.
   

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 12:48:40 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: CORE subsector for Gal 2.1

        As I recall, someone set up the Core Subsector from the T4 rulebook
for use with Galactic 2.1. If someone would be so kind, could you give me
the address of the Web page where this is located, or even e-mail me a copy
of this? Thanks!
                                        Allen       

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 96 17:36 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: re: K'kree and Virus

In-Reply-To: <c=AU%a=TELEMEMO%p=AUSGOVDEET%l=DEET/DEETYA1/0009ADA8@fmedn001.deetya.gov.au>

> >Speeking of Alines and how they tast I have a campaign in mind I want 
> >to run.  I want a game were the bad guys are capturing aliens for a little 
> >tasting.  I brought this idea up on the IRC last Thursday though it 
> >seemes sick at first it does have possibilities.  
> 
> There is a film release in Australia and New Zealand called Bad Taste
> which dealt with this problem.  It was made in New Zealand and lived
> up to the name.  If you can get hold of a copy SEE IT.

This is a great (and seriously gross) film! Dunno why, but the bit with the 
sheep always cracks me up...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:53:01 -0500
From: Commander X <CmdrX74627@aol.com>
Subject: Planet X Website now in 3D!

Greetings to all from the Commander.

I invite all who can read this (all you TML'ers out there!) to come down
to my latest endevour.  A VRML Traveller site.  just jump to
co-ordinates: www.magicnet.net/~opp-mag and select the TL-9 option.  You
must have a VRML1.0 compliant browser or plug-in (Netscape3.0 with
Live3D works best!).

You find yourself fress out of jump, a Gas giant with its child, Planet
X itself, is before you.  Move the pionter over the blue globe to get
Planet X's UPP.  Click it to land.  Upon landing you see a (rudimentary
at best) starport building.  The pictures are links to HTML documents
such as Leagal info(copyright ant trademark stuff, with a mock up of a
Regency Land Grant from Norris himself!).  The X-Tech Industries
Shipyard and Starport Mall,  a mailbox, and a Jump Portal to other trav
sites.

Please bear in mind that this is still all very new, and in constant
construction.  There are 2 lower tech mirror sites with the same info on
hem as well, TL-8 is Frames and Graphics for Netscape3.0.  TL-7 is a
plain hypertext site called Planet X "lite".

So come on down, see the 1st and only (to my knowledge anyway, corect me
if I am wrong) VRML TRaveller site!

and as always,
KEEP THE FLAME!

Commander X out
>TRANSMISSION ENDS<

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #688
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Sender: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com


Traveller-digest     Saturday, November 23 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 689



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Jump & Jump Space
Re: Star Trek First Contact
Re: Intelligence Careers
Re: Space Combat...
Re: Solomani Generred Critters
Solomani Gengineered Critters
MegaTraveller Auction #1
RE: Department of Redundancy Dept.
RE: Deck Plans : Orientation
RE: Gravitics
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: House Rules: Active Duty (sort of)
Re: Trade Commodities

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:59:24
From: bborich@gnn.com (bryan borich)
Subject: Jump & Jump Space

      Since some people asked about Jump space on GDW-beta and 
someone else asked here, here's some pertinent info. I've tried to 
keep it short, but understandable. (And of course it's non-canon, 
like most of the JTAS stuff).

Excerpts from JTAS #24:

Jumpspace by Marc Miller

      There are several different theories of jump space.....
      The basic concept of jump space is that of an alternate 
space......
      Entering jumpspace is possible anywhere,  but the perturbing 
effects of gravity make it impractical.....within (based on size, 
density and distance) .....at least 100 diameters out from a 
world...
      When ships are directed to exit jump space within a gravity 
field, they are precipitated out of jump space t the edge of the 
field instead.
      Jump takes 168 hours (+/- 10%)....Where time is a variable in 
normal space, energy consumption is a variable in alternate 
space....Consequenty, distance depends on the energy applied....
      One of the benefits of jump drive is its 
controllability....When known levels of energy are  e xpended, and 
when certain other parameters are known ...jump is accurate to less 
than one part per 10 billion....over one parsec,
the arrival of a ship can be predicted to within perhaps 3k 
kilometers....error in arrival....is affected by...quality of drive 
tuning and accuracy of the computer...these factors can increase 
the jump error by a factor of 10.
     ....when a ship exits jump it retains the speed and direction 
it had when it entered......A ship must take into account relative 
velocity between the two (star systems) when computing speeds and 
directions
      .....Jump uses large amounts of energy to rip open the 
barriers between normal space and jump space. Normally only fusion 
power can supply this energy. Some alternate systems make use of 
solar power or anti-matter power systems.
     Once power is generated, it must be stored until the instant 
of jump. Capacitors or large fast-discharge batteries fit this 
requirement.
     The hull of a starship must....withstand the rigors of jump 
space. The alien physical principles of jump space would make life 
impossible; operation of equipment unpredictable; even passage of 
time altered. Breaks in the protective network within a starship 
hull are a primary cause of the loss of ships in jump.
	Anything....becomes subject to.....jump space. People die; 
equipment malfunctions; small craft disappear.
     jump drives have precise power requirements which can only be 
met....under computer control.
     When the jump drive is activated, a large store of fuel is fed 
through the ship power plant to create the energy necessary.....the 
power plant does not work at full efficiency, and some fuel is lost 
in carrying off fusion by-products, and in cooling the system. At 
the end of a very brief period (less than a few minutes), the jump 
drive capacitors have been charged to capacity. Under computer 
control, the energy is then fed into approprite sections of
the jump drive....
      The drives first function is to tear a hole in the fabric of 
space....The drive then directs some of its energy to sewing up 
that hole....The act....severs the ties with normal space....


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Traveller-digest      Sunday, November 24 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 690



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: gravitics
Intelligence Collection Starship
RE: Solomani Generred Critters 
RE: Various Jump Questions
RE: Deck Plans : Orientation
RE: Re: Deckplan layout
World building (summary)
World building (Carbon)
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Solomani Generred Critters
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Various Jump Questions
Next Gen of Spacecraft???
Other Strains of Humaniti
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: House Rules: Active Duty (not!)
Stuff & K'kree recipes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 19:49:51 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: gravitics

Harry wrote:

>Here is an idea that I am working up for a campaign at the 
>moment.  Gravitons (as yet undiscovered) are actually faster 
>than light particles with zero mass.
>
>That way the size of the field could be determined by the 
>"speed" of the particle, we can assume that gravitons do 
>decay, but, according to their worldview, some will get longer 
>distances than others before do. Artificial gravitons have low 
>speed and only go so far before decaying, while natural
>"faster" gravitons travel futher before decay takes place. (Field
>strength is determined by particle density.)
>
>I don't know if this helps you, but it's how I rationalise to 
>myself how gravitics work.

This is interesting.  I have my own way of reconciling gravitics 
and I've chosen to use a description based off of a recent (1993)
research paper done on inertia and gravity.

The gist of it is that gravity is generated when particles are 
subjected to zero-point fluctuations.  Gravity under this 
hypothesis is nothing more than a VERY VERY high frequency
oscillating electromagnetic field that emmanates from every
particle (other than nuetrinos which may or may not have mass,
or possibly negative mass).  Objects have mass and attract other
objects of mass due to a phase shift in the zero-point fluctuations
brought on by the presence of the object.

Inertia on the other hand is very similar, but is mainly caused by 
the magnetic component of the zero-point fluctuations only when
a body is accelerated.

The paper implies that if you can generate an EM field of the 
correct frequency and shape around a vehicle, then you can
either increase or decrease the amount of inertia felt by that
vehicle when it accelerates.

I have taken it one step further to say that if you can create 
the right EM field around a vehicle (or any object) that is within
a gravity well, you can nullify the force of gravity on that 
vehicle.

For what its worth.

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 96 17:59:31 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Intelligence Collection Starship

  The recent discussion about military intelligence and intelligence
careers in general reminded me of my own career and how different it
is from the impressions people tend to have of the intelligence field.
 The truth is, most intel analysts today spend most of their time
behind a desk analyzing and synthesizing the data that about 5-10% of
their peers actually collected and produced.  Since Traveller has
always been a fairly realistic game, I can see no reason why this
shouldn't be reflected somewhat accurately.  

  The few who actually do the intel collection will spend their time
wearing headsets, sitting behind a rack in a cold, cramped, dark
starship operating at minimal power and loitering at the edge of enemy
star systems, listening for any sign of enemy signals activity,
recording everything they hear.  They are likely to be assigned on
missions lasting one or two months at a time, leaving only at the end
of the mission or if they are detected.  It's tedious, slow, dangerous
work, with little chance of recognition or reward.

  Here's a design for one of the many collection vessels used
throughout the history of space travel.  The EMM systems and the extra
computers are designed according to Fire, Fusion and Steel.  

- ---------------------------------------------------------
Solomani SX-2250 =B3HAWK WIND=B2 Intelligence Collection Platform

Tons:  300		Volume:  4200			Cost:  MCr189
Crew:  20			Passengers:  0			
Cargo:  28.2		Controls:  Mil Standard	TL:  11

Size Rating:  8		Jump Rating:  2
Fire Control:  3		Maneuver Rating:  2G, Thrusters
L Battery 1: 2-2-0-0	Power Plant Rating:  3 (500 MW)
					Fuel Rating:  95.4 Scoop/Refine 10
					Sensor Rating:  A10 P4 J4, EMM fitted
					Armor:  10		Structure:  11

	Built on a nonstandard, 300-ton streamlined disk hull, the SX-2250
HAWK WIND is designed to loiter at the edge of adversary systems and
collect intelligence data without attracting attention.  It is
equipped with a single laser turret in case it does have to defend
itself, but otherwise is not armed.  The ship=B9s primary mission is
surveillance, not combat.  It was first developed after the First
Interstellar War, and saw extensive service throughout subsequent wars
and conflicts.  The original design was never changed substantially,
although the systems were improved upon as technology permitted. 
	The SX-2250 is fitted with the best sensors, jamming and stealth
equipment available for a ship of its size, and has two collection
laboratories, each with its own TL-11 standard computer for analysis
and recording.  Each of these computers can be used as a backup for
the ship=B9s main computers if they are damaged.  The EMM equipment
increases the difficulty of adversary starships=B9 sensor locks by +1
level.  Its cargo volume is usually used for sensor decoys and extra
provisions for long missions.
	The following crew is required to operate the ship:  3 command, 2
electronics, 2 maneuver, 1 engineer, 1 gunner, 1 steward, and 10
intelligence analysts.
- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\        "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________odysseus@novia.net

If Apple Computers were to disappear, where would Bill Gates get all
his ideas?
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:24:16 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Solomani Generred Critters 

- ----------
From: 	Mused[SMTP:marz@hotstar.net]
Sent: 	Friday, November 22, 1996 5:05 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Solomani Generred Critters 

>Octopi are considered as probably the most intelligent non-vertabrate

And they are actually kinda cute, at least when they're smaller than you
and are trapped in a tidal pool.  Just stick your finger into the pool it's 
in and it'll put out a tentacle to touch/grap you with.  Lost a couple of 
pencils to an octopus once while at Scripps Marine Institute near 
La Jolla.  That Octo' was smarter than my dogs, who just love anybody 
who has the guts to stick their hand into the fence to pet them (even
though they bark up a storm before).  The Octo' had the sense to hide
and only send out a feeler to try and grab something, kinda reminding
me of my cat.

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:46:21 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Various Jump Questions

- ----------
From: 	TPeterAZ@aol.com[SMTP:TPeterAZ@aol.com]
Sent: 	Friday, November 22, 1996 2:49 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Various Jump Questions

>This should keep everyone busy for a while.  Can somebody be spaced while in
>J-space?  What happens to the ship if an airlock is opened?  What if a bomb
>were planted on the ship, set to breach the hull, and didn't detonate until
>the ship had entered J-space?  Hmmm?

Possibilities:
1. The ship could disintegrate.
2. The ship exits jump space and has a mis-jump, capable
    of placing it anywhere in open space between its point of
    departure and its destination.
3. Everyone & everything onboard is subjected to jump-madness
    for the duration of the trip (uh, no pun intended).
4. Nothing.  Because the jump grid isn't necessary once the
    ship is in jump space.  I used to take this as the ship being
    inside a small pocket universe with the boundaries being 
    a sphere centered on the ship.  As long as you didn't reach 
    the edge of the sphere you were alive, as soon as you 
    touched it you were lost to jump space.
5. The jump grid has been breached and the pocket universe
    the ship is travelling inside of begins to collapse.  Maybe 
    you can find a way to stop the collapse, or maybe you're 
    going to die.  It all depends on how far into the trip the 
    grid was breached.

I ussually use #4 when I run Traveller with jump drives.  It makes
for good special effects when you throw someone out the airlock
and they slowly tumble into the shifting surface of the bubble, 
followed by a large light show when their subatomic particles 
self destruct.  Really cool... Now everyone take 3D6 radiation
damage (haha ha)

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:00:13 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Deck Plans : Orientation

You know that electrostatic fields can be used to reduce 
drag on an airframe.  There was a write up on this in a 
magazine some time back.  High electrostatic charge can
be used to reduce the heat due to reentry and drag.  Since
we have force fields in Traveller, you could use these to 
reduce damage due to air friction during reentry.  This could
even be useful on fast airframe or streamlined ships that 
need to do a fast low level bomb run on a surface target.  
Poke sensors through the field, if possible, and hit the 
atmosphere at a speed higher than the max atmospheric
speed rating.  It would serve to reduce heat damage and
also serve to protect the vessel in case of anti-air or anti-space
fire.

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:22:55 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Deckplan layout

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>The planes are making manuevers that aren't *possible* without an
>atmosphere & gravity.
>
>In space you don't "bank" your fighter to make a turn. Instead you
>point the nose towards what will be the center of a turn, and fire the
>main engine (which is at the stern).

The manuever drives in Traveller may require you to rotate and burn, 
but the way ships turn in Star Trek & Star Wars implies that they 
have partial inertialess drives which could allow you to turn that way.  
A truly inertialess drive would allow you to go from 0m/s to 
200 billion m/s (~2/3 LS) almost immediately, and allow you to 
make take any turn angle you want without feeling the slightest
force from acceleration.  

You play with the rules as given, or you change them and live with
the consequences of what your players can think of doing with them.
Having a true inertialess drive doesn't appeal to me, but you could
use it as a plot device in a UFO scenario.  Partially inertialess 
drives would allow you to bank, giving the ship a turn radius 
dependent upon the mass, velocity, and turn efficiency of the
engines.  Of course you could still manuever the old way if your
stearing engine was shot to H*ll.  

I like doing it this way, but then I'm just a sucker for starships that
turn without flipping over.

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:53:35 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: World building (summary)

The presence of carbon does not significantly alter the major environmental
types. Its relatively lesser abundance and its affinity for oxygen and
similar behavior toward nitrogen do not further divide the classes much.
The classifications, and examples from sol system, are presented here

Type 1 environments.
Water, ammonia, and methane. Hydrogen present in excess. Unlikely to
originate or sustain life, due to hydrogen saturation of bonding
capabilities. In Sol sytem, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, though these
last two begin to approach a type 2 composition.

Type 2 environments.
Atmosphere nitrogen based. Water, ammonia, complex hydrocarbons and their
oxygen and nitrogen derivatives. No free oxygen. Most likely environments
for origins of carbon-based life. In Sol system, Titan. Earth was probably
once a type 2.

Type 3 environments.
Atmosphere largely nitrogen, with free oxygen, Water and carbon dioxide
present. May sustain life, but probably not originate it. In Sol system,
Earth. Mars may have been a type 3 once.

Type 4 environments.
Atmosphere largely carbon dioxide, possibly with nitrogen or oxygen or
both. Water not present. Probably do not sustain life. In Sol system, Mars
and Venus.

type 5 enviromnents.
No significant atmosphere. In Sol system, Mercury and Luna, Pluto, probably
others.

The general trend is with decreasing size and increasing temperature, which
have somewhat similar effects. 
It should be noted that there can be a great variety of worlds in any given
class, depending on temperature, atmospheric density, and details of the
composition. A planet is classed primarily by its atmosphere, with liquid
(if any) given secondary importance, and solids least.  

This classification cuts across the UWP physical profile, and so it is of
somewhat limited use. However, for world builders who would like design
their alien environments with some care, and not rely strictly on random
dice rolls, or those artists who desire a semblance of reality, this should
provide something of a guide. 

  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:53:29 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: World building (Carbon)

Carbon is the fourth of the big 4 elements, and necessary for most 
easily imaginable forms of life.

Carbon is mostly found in combination with hydrogen, as would be 
expected from the saturation of the universe with hydrogen; the combination
is methane.
A surplus of hydrogen in a system gives methane in a hydrogen 
atmosphere. Since methane is the lightest of the series, methane, ammonia,
and water, it is the most likely to be lost from a planet.
However, if breakup by ultraviolet light is the primary cause of loss of
hydrogen, then carbon is likely to be retained. Dehydrogenation of carbon
compounds gives rise to increasing numbers and varieties of hydrocarbon
compounds that are progressively heavier, wiht higher melting and boiling
points.

However, almost no systems are pure carbon and hydrogen, and given the
existence of hydrogen poor worlds, it makes sense to consider carbon-oxygen
systems. Carbon and oxygen, like the big four and hydrogen, but unlike
nitrogen and oxygen, form stable compounds with a release of energy, and
will not coexist for long as the pure elements.
Carbon forms two important compounds with oxygen: carbon monoxide, and
carbon dioxide. A range of proportions exists, but we can consider
environments to be oxygen-rich, which gives carbon dioxide and a surplus of
oxygen, and oxygen-poor, which will have varying amounts of carbon
monoxide.
Given the cosmic abundances of oxygen and carbon, you can expect most
worlds to be oxygen-rich in this sense. 
On hydrogen-poor worlds, you can expect significant amounts of carbon
dioxide, for at least four reasons. The lack of substantial formation of
nitrogen oxides leaves a carbon-oxygen combination as the next in line.
The general oxygen-richness of the universe indicates dioxide. Of all the
gases considered so far, carbon dioxide is by far the heaviest, and most
likely to stick to a planet. It will stick when even molecular oxygen and
nitrogen are lost.

The general progression goes something like this. On high-hydrogen worlds,
where there is a surplus of hydrogen, there is not much opportunity for
hydrogen-saturated oxygen and water to react. However, as the hydrogen
content of a system decreases into the middle hydrogen range, there is
increased opportunity for water to react with unsaturated hydrocarbons.
among the first and simplest of these are the alcohols. At a further stage,
there are the aldehydes and at a further stage, the organic acids.
Just as ammonia does not tolerate the presence of free oxygen, neither do
hydrocarbons in large quantities. They rapidly undergo combustion to Carbon
Dioxide and water.

The reaction of carbon and nitrogen is much like that of oxygen and
nitrogen: they can coexist almost indefinitely without reacting much.
Nevertheless, many compounds containing both carbon and nitrogen can be
formed with a modest input of energy. Binding with carbon has a stabilizing
effect on a great many nitrogen compounds. Some of the most important, such
as the nucleic and amino acids, have vital nitrogen components.

The dominant reactions of life,
Photosynthesis: water + CO2 = oxygen + carbohydrates, and
respiration, its reverse, should be too familiar to need 
an extended discussion.

For now, a closing summary will suffice. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:53:39 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

> Yes, but why?  If you have a reactionless M-Drive capable of 1-G thrust,
> and are launching from a world that has a gravity well of .9 G, then you
> are going to lift whether you are streamlined or not.  Ditto for
> re-entry.
> There is no reason, except to save time, why you have to make a hot
> reentry or take-off...is there?

I wasn't thinking of reactionless M drives and wouldn't use them... I was
thinking more FFS HEPlaR Drives. If you intend stay at orbital altitude,
you must either use your drive to counter the force of gravity, or achieve
the proper orbital velocity. If you're not going to take forever and a year
to get around in the solar system, you want orbital velocities anyway.
If you are in orbit trying to land, you must at the same time deccelerate
from orbital velocities and counter the force of gravity which is trying to
accelerate you. As a practical matter, it saves fuel to let the atmosphere
assist somewhat in slowing down.
Velocities that are quite slow by spacecraft standards are very fast in
atmospheres, and even the modest acceleration you mention can give
hypersonic velocities in the upper atmosphere.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:07:53 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani Generred Critters

At 12:09 PM 11/23/96 -0500, Thad Coons wrote:
>Lewis Roberts writes
>
>>> Hi, In Solomani&Aslan, it mentions that the Solomani have 
>>> uplifted numerous species. I forget the exact number but it was 
>>> over 20. (I think)  I have always wondered which species these were. 
>
>>> Anyone have any other ideas?
>
>Horses or donkeys, bird species such as parrots, and octopi.

Birds don't possess complex enough brains to really make an uplift
realistic.  There is already an octopod, aquatic race (The Githansko?) What
I'd like to see beyon the primates are elephants.  Elephants are very smart
and aggressive tool users already, and a sentient breed would be a great
help on a new colony world.

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 22:18:34 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) said,

>>I guess I don't see what is so unrealistic about WWII dogfights in space.

>When you are thrusting, the internal thrust vector is always along the same
>axis.  If you want to slow down, you spin the ship so the drive points in the
>direction you are travelling, then thrust.  The internal acceleration you
>feel will be in the same (local) direction and when you want to speed up.

>It is difficult to give this lecture without a blackboard :-)

The easiest way to describe vectored thrust for the layman is: "Ever play
the arcade game, Asteroids? It's like that - only in 3D." (Even better is
the old "Spacewar" game, with a star at the centre of the screen, so the
players have to compensate for the effects of its gravity.)

>I haven't seen a science fiction movie or TV show that got it right.

Some day I'd love to see someone attempt to do space combat in a movie or
TV show that was as close to 100% 'realistic' as possible. When I say this,
people always object, "It'd be too dull - no sound of explosions, no
aerial-style dogfights, long delays in the action while the ships turn
around for another pass..." I disagree. It could be highly suspenseful and
scary. It would only be dull if handled without imagination, and the type
of space-dogfight you see in Space: Above & Beyond (any all other space
shows & movies) is highly unimaginative.

Consider Clarke & Kubrick's _2001_. The space scenes are all as close to
realistic as 1968 movie tech could make them, and today they still look
utterly unlike those of any other movie (except, notably, IMAX movies shot
aboard the Shuttle). The relative motions of spacecraft, planets, and
starfields provide a great sense of audience involvement (lots of people
start to feel spacesick during the "Blue Danube" station docking sequence).
As for the lack of sound in space, this can also have interesting dramatic
effects, as Kubrick revealed: recall the horrific desperation of Gary
Lockwood's character, trying to reconnect his airhose, while spinning off
into nowhere, with absolutely nothing on the soundtrack at all.

You can justify some movie sound effects by pointing out that "false sound"
is a common movie technique (like when Woody Allen can be heard arguing
with a friend in the midst of a crowd, though we see them in extreme long
shot). But it would be interesting to do a space combat sequence in which
the only sound you hear is what gets transmitted over intership comms. No
explosion when a ship gets hit - perhaps just a truncated scream and burst
of RF static. And the explosions wouldn't look like billowing clouds of
smoke (as in Star Wars), another hold-over from WWII movies; instead: a
brief flash of light, and chunks of debris spinning off in all directions,
glittering streamers of ice crystals as the atmosphere escapes and
freezes...

Today, with computer animation and simulated physics, there is no excuse
for continuing to show space combat as "just like" WWII. And if I see one
more show where spacecraft attack each other - always oriented along the
same 2D plane...aargh! Trek only recently stopped doing this - with "All
Good Things" - far too late, and they still do it on Voyager all the time.

If your space combat is "just like" WWII aerial combat, what's the point of
setting it in space at all? Have the characters fight in some planet's
atmosphere and have done with it. The entire point of setting a story in
space is that space is an alien environment where the old rules do not
apply.

Mind you, I once read an interview with one of the founders of Virtuality
Systems, makers of the Dactyl Nightmare VR game, and he said they had
developed a space-combat game that used somewhat realistic vectored thrust
- - the fighters could zoom around in three dimensions, the whole bit.
Unfortunately, nearly everybody who played it got motion sickness. The
realistic swirling of starfields (not matched by inertial data from the
inner ear) was just too much for their stomaches to handle.

I suspect humans are going to need some subtle modifications (genetic or
chemical) in order to operate real space fighters without constantly
throwing up.

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 22:06:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Various Jump Questions

Thus spake TPeterAZ@aol.com:

> This should keep everyone busy for a while.  Can somebody be spaced while in
> J-space?  What happens to the ship if an airlock is opened?  What if a bomb
> were planted on the ship, set to breach the hull, and didn't detonate until
> the ship had entered J-space?  Hmmm?

In the first case, the results are unpredictable, but uniformly negative 
for the jetsam involved.  One 'documented' case (which is detailed in 
DGP's "Starship Operator's Handbook", I think) involves a battle rider 
coming loose from its tender about halfway through a jump.  Somebody 
found part of an airlock from it many parsecs away and a couple of 
centuries later.

The players in my campaign disposed of an unpopular crewmember (read: 
ex-PC) this way.  Of course, the open airlock event in j-space showed up 
as a nasty red flag in the ship's electronic log (the post-Collapse 
equivalent of the all-knowing transponder log), which bought them some 
trouble (they managed to keep the RQS officer from comparing their 
manifest to their current roster, however).  Basically, as they saw it, 
the unwelcome slug coasted out the airlock, contacted the jump field, and 
disappeared in a blue flash.  Now he'll be precipitating randomly back 
into n-space at various locations throughout the Spinward Marches sector 
over the next couple of centuries.  If you're in the area, and hear a 
splash in your soup that wasn't your spoon, I'd take a good look at your 
next bite...

As for the hull-ripping bomb scenario, according to the aforementioned 
Handbook, a sufficiently-large hull breach will actually cause the 
envelope separating the ship from j-space to protrude into the ship (due 
to destruction of the lathanum hull grid).  Remember that the complete 
destruction of the ship is about the only method available to Imperial 
science for effecting any sort of 'midcourse correction' while in 
j-space.  Exploding a bomb on a PC's ship is a great way of coming up 
with new PCs.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 05:54:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Next Gen of Spacecraft???

> It's no more justified than with any other vehicle. They want 100%
> and the real world doesn't work that way. So rather than design
> intelligently, and accept a small chance of failure, they over-design
> things and can actually make things worse.
    Well... blame the politicians and the media.  There are engineers who would
do the obvious at NASA.  But the demands of perfection by the politico's and
the sensation hunting media create the culture within NASA to do this.  OC
being under that kind of public microscope makes it rather understandable. ;)

> And yes, I do know about Black Horse. I also know about the Delta-X
> and Delta-Y (pity they picked somthing else for the "next generation").
> I also know about vehicles like Spacecub.
    Tells you how up to date I am, I only knew about one of these.  Care to
detail the rest of them?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 05:54:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Other Strains of Humaniti

>>> But the humanoid form is a good one. It frees up the hands and
>>> allows the easiest support for a large brain (straight up) And
>>> at the same time, it is flexible enough to assume other postures
>>> in different environments.
>> If it's such a good design, why are we the only species on the
>> planet to have come up with it? Sure, there are other bipeds, but
>> they're birds, they have no hands. There are other primates, but
>> they don't walk much on two legs.
> There were several others. Neanderthals, to name the most common
> and best known example. The basic answer to "where are the others?"
> is "We eliminated the competition."
    Given Humanity's homicidal proclivities this appears to be the most obvious
explaination, however... like many others I have some problems with it.  That's
the RW however.  In the Traveller Universe though.....

    Imagine the situation as Grandfather and descendents found it.  Two closely
related species of evolving, tool using, upright bipeds in competition.  Its
quite possible that Grandfather simply picked one over the other and
slaughtered off the other with a tailored bioweapon virus.  Why, to create a
control group of course.  Remember that Humanity was functionally Grandfather
and descendents equivalent of pets/lab animals. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 22:39:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

Thus spake Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>:

> On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Thad Coons wrpte

[snip]

> > I couldn't find the reference again, but FFS mentions that a ship
> > achieves hypersonic speeds when ascending to and landing from orbit.
> > If this involves going through an atmosphere, any part that offers
> > excessive resistance to airflow is going to get hot and take damage.
> > Hence the need for at least some streamlining.
> 
> Yes, but why?  If you have a reactionless M-Drive capable of 1-G thrust,
> and are launching from a world that has a gravity well of .9 G, then you
> are going to lift whether you are streamlined or not.  Ditto for re-entry.
> There is no reason, except to save time, why you have to make a hot
> reentry or take-off...is there?

The thing you have to keep in mind is that he's referring to FF&S, which 
lists reactionless M-Drives as being an 'alternate' technology, not being 
an 'official' part of the TNE-Version of the Traveller universe.  
According to FF&S, if you're using the official rules, you need to leave 
the planet quickly in order to spend as little reaction mass as 
possible.  Of course, since the TNE rules also allowed non-airframe ships 
to enter and land on non-vacuum worlds, it doesn't hold that all 
entry-capable starships had hypersonic airframes for hulls.  A ship with 
a Streamlined Sphere hull configuration could conceivably reach 1100 kph 
in a Standard atmosphere (and, unless you're applying the 
differing-aerodynamics rules from the "World Tamer's Handbook", 
presumably in a Dense atmosphere as well).  Of course, the rules state 
that such a ship could also skim fuel from gas giants.  I take that to 
mean that such a ship CAN reach hypersonic speeds within an atmosphere, 
but only in the upper reaches of one.

Now, as to the original question, I take that (hypersonic speeds in the 
upper atmosphere) to mean that certain activities, such as extending a 
passive sensor array or using space combat lasers are just plain not 
possible due to the slipstream.  I also take it to mean that, unless 
you're using rules that allow reactionless thrusters (such as T4), you're 
not going to get an unstreamlined ship to the surface of a non-vacuum 
world in one piece unless you've got enough reaction mass on board to 
manage the constant course corrections and attitude adjustments 
necessary to keep your airspeed down and avoid a Wile E. Coyote style 
landing.

On second thought, I should allow that such a feat is possible given the 
right circumstances.  As the F-4 Phantom proved:  Given enough thrust, 
even a brick can fly.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 22:47:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty (not!)

Thus spake Harold <HDHale@aol.com>:

[snip]

> Regards,
> 
> Harold (who deftly avoided any discussion of politics, including the sighting
> of a whale near the Great Barrier Reef which turned out to be President
> Clinton on a snorkeling trip....)

Good footwork, Harold.  I think you were successful.

Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 07:51:00 GMT 
From: e.gutierrez3@genie.com
Subject: Stuff & K'kree recipes

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote

>I like K'kree. But I couldn't eat a whole one...

Naw, but think of the Filet Mignon..

David Smart <dsmart@flash.net> wrote

>Oh, geez, you are SICK! I can't believe this!
>How could you say something
>so disgusting?!?
>*Everybody* knows you're suppose to deep-fry 'em.

Only if your doing Cajun..
Braised with Shallots and garlic for that
continental flair. Or Grilled with Green
peppers and onoins for Southwestrn..
Not to mention what the brits can do with
Sausage (No I'm not kidding) 8-)..

"Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>

>Well... as pot roast they ain't bad either! :)

Now the Down-Easters have spoken, don't
forget the Cabbage..

lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote

>I assumed that dogs were uplifted,

They are called Vargr. Though somewhere in the
past I also did dogs (based on a water spaniel/
coyote mix I acquired as a child). Though I did
retain a quadruped format..

>I have an idea for an adventure based upon
>uplifted Jabberwocks,

Wicked, Think Aliens.

Tim Peter wrote

>BTW, I assume that you cannot transfer back from
>Intel to an ordinary unit. (Once a spy...)
> If anyone knows how this is handled in modern
>military forces, I would
>appreciate your input.

Well actulaly it's quite easy, a nimrod as a
detailer and Boom your in the regular Fleet
or Usally a simple request will get you back
out. Theory is unhappy Spooks are more likly
to be compromised. Once you are out yer out
thou...

On a diferent tack, this is a cry in the
wilderness. If any of you are in the
Greater Reno-Tahoe area (i.e. Northwest
Nevada) and are intrested to Play discuss
Dare I say Live Traveller (Any rules)
write me at E.GUTIERREZ3@genie.com

Ps. I'm in Carson City.

MacDude
e.gutierrez3@genie.com

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest      Sunday, November 24 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 691



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Re: Re: Deckplan layout
Re: re: Deckplan layout
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Trade Commodities
Re: Solomani Generred Critters
Re: World building (Nitrogen I)
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: Space Combat 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Re: Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Intelligence Collection Platform
Re: [T96#686] House Rules and Ranks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:42:09 -0800
From: "Douglas" <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Deckplan layout
> Date: Friday, November 22, 1996 5:58 PM
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> Actually, other than the forces generated in the process of "turning"
> >> the ship, the vector will be the same at all times. Because the main
> >> drive only pushes in one direction. The "steering jets" or attitude
> >> thrusters, or whatever aren't anywhere *near* as powerful.
> >
> > That depends on which version of the the rules we apply.  Admittedly,
all
> > the basic books refer to ships turning over, but in (I believe)
> > the Starship Operators Handbook, they were pretty specific about the
> > directions and the amounts of thrust a M-Drive could generate.
> 
> I have some problems with what I've heard of that.

It solved a lot of the problems I had with some of the rules.  For
instance, a 400 ton Fat Trader, able to push 1G, landing on a world size of
A (which means over 1 G of local gravity), how does it take off?  I had
been playing around with the idea of starship sized JATO units! :)  It does
allow for more agile ships, plus I liked the overdrive rule...it lets the
engineer have a bit more to do with the ship than just fix it.

> 
> > Regardless, if you advance the technology for steering jets and
attitude
> > thrusters proportional to the technology for the main drive, you end up
> > with some pretty powerful little jets, capable of spinning a ship
pretty
> > rapidly (the only way to get effective manuever/evasion against agile,
> > intelligent seeker missiles).
> 
> But turning is *still* limited. Simply by the stresses induced in the
> hull. A=4*pi^2*r/t^2 (t is rotational period)

Granted, but those stresses are going to be calculated and re-enforced. 
That's what we pay the Naval architect for, right?

> 
> >> If you were going "north" (coasting) and wanted to change to going due
> >> "west" at the same speed, you'd point the nose of the ship southwest,
> >> and fire the engines until you were moving east. Vector addition is
> >> funny stuff.
> >
> > However, if you are going "north" and the computer decides that the
> > optimum evasion solution is going to be 15% thrust "southwest" coupled
> > with a 15 degree/second spin for 5 seconds to bring a masked battery to
> > bear, you'd best have either good mechanical restraints or intertial
> > compensation to keep you off the viewscreen!
> 
> Assume a radius of 10 meters. 15 deg/s=24 sec per revolution
> 
> a=4*pi^2*10/24^2
> a=4*3.14^2*10/24^2
> a=4*9.87*10/576
> a=4*98.7/576
> a=395/576
> a=.69 m/sec or about 1/14th of a g.
> 
> You'd need a 143 meter radius to get 1 g at 15 deg/s. 

Based on the ship designs I have seen, 10m would only refer to the smaller
ships; a100-ton scout/courier is 38m long by 24m wide at the base, the
200-ton Far Trader is 50m long by 29m wide.  I also think that the smaller
ships, especially those under 100 tons, should be able to spin MUCH faster
than 15 deg/s.

However, when you get up into the 1 Kton destroyer escorts, the 5 Kton
destroyer escorts, and then to the capital ships, we are talking about
ships with a radius' that far exceed 10 m, or even 143 meters.  Those are,
as I understand the conversation, the ships we are discussing, no?


> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


E-MAIL: douglas@teleport.com
HTTP://www.teleport.com/~douglas

Never anger a dragon, for they find you are crunchy and go well with brie!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:22:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:

> I haven't seen a science fiction movie or TV show that got it right.  A good
> book for space combat sequences would be _Footfall_ - another one would be
> _The Stone Dogs_ (about the only good part of that book, too).

Keep an eye on Babylon 5. The manuevers are realistic. It's the ranges
and spacing that aren't.

You frequently see a ship making a firing pass, spin around so the
stern pointed in the direction it was travelling, and fire up the drive
to slow, stop and accelerate back for another pass.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:34:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:

> Something the original poster
> might want to do is to pick up a copy of Microsoft's Space Simulator.
>
> [we interrupt this post to warn readers that Space Simulator is a typically
> lousy Microsoft product:
<list of defects deleted>
> So please do not consider this an endorsement.]
>
>         It simulates the maneuvering requirements one encounters in space
> rather well.  If you try and fly the ship using the same joystick and
> thrust inputs as you would in a flight sim, you is going to get horribly
> confused and disoriented.  You develop a good understanding of delta-v very
> quickly.  Landings, using either the LEM or what they call the ATL, are
> quite fun; you get a sense of the true meaning of the term "gravity well".
>
>         It also gives you an excellent idea of the sheer scale of space.
> Last summer, I did a bunch of flights with it where I would just set the
> ship thrusting and leave it running in realtime, then leave for work.  I'd
> come home, make the neccessary corrections, read or watch some TV, correct
> again before I went to sleep, and again in the AM, etc...  and this was
> just bopping around the inner Solar System.  Space is big... even when
> compared to running down the street to the chemist's ;).

What I'd love to do is write a *good* space simulator, with
multi-player networking capability. You could do campaigns in "real
time". After all, in most cases you could see ships coming hours or
days in advance. So "scheduling" battles for when folks had the free
time would be workable. 

Design it to support Traveller-type ship design and then we don't
*need* combat rules. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:43:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:

> The easiest way to describe vectored thrust for the layman is: "Ever play
> the arcade game, Asteroids? It's like that - only in 3D." (Even better is
> the old "Spacewar" game, with a star at the centre of the screen, so the
> players have to compensate for the effects of its gravity.)

There's a shareware version of Spacewar for the PC (CGA & Herc). If
anybody wants it I can mail it to you. If a lot do, we should put it up
on the FTP site as a "vector novement trainer".

> Some day I'd love to see someone attempt to do space combat in a movie or
> TV show that was as close to 100% 'realistic' as possible. When I say this,
> people always object, "It'd be too dull - no sound of explosions, no
> aerial-style dogfights, long delays in the action while the ships turn
> around for another pass..."

More like sub versus destroyer battles, except the visibility is
better. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:52:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

In mail you write:

> A computer would be very fast on the steering and a simple feedback
> control system which monitored the position and rotation of the
> ship could compensate quite easily.  Programming it to work in an
> atmosphere would be simple...

You missed the *critical* point. The forces from from whatever the ship
uses for steering *have* to be designed to exert forces centered on (or
perhaps "balanced around" would be better) the ship's center of mass.
That is, the forces will be set up with equal "moment arms" (force
times distance from center of mass).

Unless the ship shaped in a rather limited set of ways ("airframe") the
forces from air flow over the hull will *not* be so balanced. So a
steering system design for space *cannot* compensate for these "off
center" forces. And trying to will stress the ship in a manner it is
designed for. 

> Also, I didn't get the impression that unstreamlined automatically
> means open structure... you can still have a compact non-streamlined,
> non-airframe... 

But unless the CP & CM have the right relationship, you are in trouble.
As simple "rectangular box" with the center of mass *not* centered
(reasonable enough, put the heavy drives and powerplant at one end, the
cargo hold can be the "front half", gives more "unbroken" cargo space)
will be totally uncontrolable in atmosphere. 

It's not a matter of open structure. It's a matter of aerodynamic
forces and mass distribution.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:07:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

In mail you write:

> At 9:24 PM 11/22/96, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Airplanes are pretty strong too. And "microbursts" have been known to
>>drop a plane several thousand feet in *seconds*. If that happens to
>>you, and you are only 1500 feet up, you've just crashed.
>
> If you're moving at 300 mph through the air and the wind changes or
> the pressure changes, your lift will change quickly.  If you're
> floating, then it won't.  For example, hot air balloons rarely go
> jumping through the air... 

Better talk to an experienced balloonist. Updrafts and downdrafts *do*
move them violently. Balloonists try to avoid such. 

> A slow moving CG ship would maneuver more like a dirigible than an
> airplane.

Check into why the US Navy quit flying dirigibles. They had two of them
crash in storms that weren't all that violent. They just couldn't move
fast enough to avoid them. And paid for it.

>>Heck, I can't remember the number of times I've seem semis that ran
>>into unexpected wind gusts with bad results. Your ship will have a lot
>>more "sail" area. And being non-airframe, the "center of pressure" may
>>be nowhere *near* the center of mass. In which case your ship is not
>>stable at *any* speed.
>
> Again, semis are moving.  Also, they don't often get tossed off the
> road.  Maybe very rarely in high winds.

Your ship is moving too. And it *won't* be as aerodynamic as a semi,
nor will it have tire friction to help stabilization.

>>Just as the center of mass is the point about which the ship tries to
>>pivot when "off center" forces are applied, the center of pressure is
>>the point where forces from "wind" center. If the CP is at or behind
>>the CM *relative to the "wind"* your ship will tumble end over end or
>>worse.
>
> Most ships have maneuvering thrusters that could compensate for
> any off-center forces.  No problem.  If the ship starts to rotate
> clockwise, apply thrust counter-clockwise.  If the ship is moving
> slowly, then it's not going to go dancing around the sky.

The thruster forces are centered on the CM. The wind forces are
centered on the CP. That's the problem. 

Here's an example. Assume a ship 60 meters long, with a CM 40 meters
from the nose (20 m from the tail). Assume a CP 20 meters from the nose
(40 meters from the tail).

	|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|
     nose		CP		CM		tail

The forces turning the ship clockwise (wind) can be treated as a pair of
vectors of equal but opposite magnitude, at equal distances from the
CP. The forces turning the ship counterclockwise (thrusters) can be
treated similarly except that they center on the CM.

So lets let each vector be 10 meters from the CM or CP respectively.
And of course, they are of equal magnitude.

                ^
                |
wind	|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|
                        CP      |	CM
                                v



	                	^
        	        	|
Thrust	|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|
                	CP        	CM      |
                        	        	v



Now we sum the vectors:

                ^		^
                |		|
sum	|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|
                        CP      |	CM	|
                                v		v


The vectors in the center cancel. Leaving you *still* spinning!

(The actual calculations are messier, but this gives a rough idea. And
I am quite aware of the oversimplifications and errors that displaying
it this way cause)

Thrusters set up for a space only vehicle won't be set up to supply the
"unequal" forces required to neutralize aerodynamic forces. Doing so
would be quite unsafe in space. 

So to land thru an atmosphere, you'd have to virtually rebuild the
attitude control system *and* hope that the *new* stresses you are
placing on the structure (remember, it's braced for forces distributed
*equally* about the CM, as that's the only kind that occur in space)
don't break anything.

>>> I agree that an
>>> unstreamlined ship wouldn't be able to fly very fast or maneuver
>>> very well at all, but it just seems silly to say that it can not
>>> enter the atmosphere...
>>
>>It's possible to *enter* atmosphere. It's not *practical* to do so.
>>Your ship is *inherently* unstable with respect to wind forces
>>(including the *apparent* "wind" generated by your passage thru the
>>air). As such navigation is next to impossible.
>>
>>I've had to deal with CP/CM problems in trying to design model rockets
>>and the like. So I do know what I'm talking about.
>
> I assume that these rockets are accelerating hard and moving very
> fast?

Airspeed is not a factor, except to the extent that the forces are
stronger at higher speeds. Model airplanes have similar problems, and
they aren't going that fast. 

> If I were going to bring a big, lumbering, unstreamlined
> ship into an atmosphere, I wouldn't accelerate hard or move very
> fast.  I'd take my time drifting down and move very slowly...
> I would, in fact, behave as little like a rocket as possible.

Doesn't matter. You are going to be moving. And the slower you move, the
*more* likely you are to run into winds moving *faster* than you are.

You can reduce *your* speed (relative to the *ground*. You can't do
anything about the winds. It does no good to reduce your speed to 10
mph, as you *will* run into winds moving faster than that.

Wind speed can change by 50 to 100 (or more!) mph in the process of
changing altitude by a couple hundred feet.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:55:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Trade Commodities

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> Don't forget that unlike cargo hauling on earth there are at least three
>> *extra* handling categories:
>> 
>> "Do not expose to vacuum"
>> "Must be kept under acceleration at all times" (ie no free fall!)
>> "Max accelleration limit of XX g"
>> 
>> There are probably high and low pressure limits, not just "no vacuum".
>> 
>> Most agro products will be "Do not expose to vacuum!". And many will
>> have max acceleration limits. Consider what happens to watermelons at,
>> say, 3 g...
>
> How about limitations of exposure to other materials, like metals,
> certain gases, etc. (research the joys of plutonium) or *requiring*
> exposure?

Those are "unusual" or "special" handling conditions, just the way
"pressure" or "acceleration" limits are special conditions now. 

But pressure and gravity fluctuations are going to be *common* in space
cargo handling. Even if the ship maintains a controlled environment,
you have to worry about transfer points. 

Combat damage gets interesting. Consider, if your ship gets badly
irradiated by a near miss and you are carrying a cargo of grain. If it
is food, then as long as there's no residual radiation, you can sell
it. But if it is *seed*, it's worthless. And no, you can't sell seed
grain as food. It's been treated with chemicals to prevent rot and the
like. 

Bulk chemicals will be fine in most cases. A few will explode. The only
other result for "bulk chemicals" and "radiation" is certain industrial
polymer bases. The radiation would trigger polymer formation, and your
tank of "aramid resin" would be a solid block of poorly cured plastic,
or a mix of "soup" and "fibers".

Worst possible cargo to be hauling if you get a radiation hit?
Unexposed film. :-)

Worst possible cargo for a loss of pressure hit? I dunno, how about
bubble-wrap? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 23:03:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Solomani Generred Critters

In mail you write:

> Birds don't possess complex enough brains to really make an uplift
> realistic.

Some of the flightless birds might be better choices.

> What I'd like to see beyon the primates are elephants.  Elephants are
> very smart and aggressive tool users already, and a sentient breed
> would be a great help on a new colony world.

Here are the various candidates I can think of:

dolphins/porpoise/orca
octopi
squid
various primates
raccoons
otters
rats (they are *damned* smart for their size and survive damn near anything)
various feline and canine species
Bears

Consider an uplifted Grizzly or Kodiak. A Marine DI would drool at the
thought of something like that as starting material. 3 meters tall,
half a ton of muscle...

I'd suggest that wolverines are bright enough for uplift, but probably
*way* too independent and agressive.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 23:14:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World building (Nitrogen I)

In mail you write:

> Nitrogen
>
> (In which ammonia-dwellers find the universe is biased against them.)
>
> This leaves you with a limited set of choices for three-element 
> planetary envelopes. Type 1 is water-and-ammonia in hydrogen. 
> Type 2 is water-and-ammonia in Nitrogen. Type 3 is water in
> nitrogen-and-oxygen.

Hal Clement's sequel to "Mission of Gravity" ("Star Light") has a type
1 planet. 

> Furthermore, ammonia is quite soluble in liquid water, which could help
> preserve it. Also, water and ammonia have different temperature ranges
> where they are liquid: If the water freezes out, ammonia oceans become
> possible.

Doesn't work that way. The *mixture* has a freezing/boiling point that
varies widely with concentration. Phase diagrams of water/ammonia
mixtures are really weird. "Star Light" made good use of the
weirdnesses that result.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 16:07 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.961122115846.23123A-100000@cummings.uchicago.edu>

<< > "Mr. Roberts" with Henry Fonda.  (Great movie.)  I'm curious what sort of
> ships a lower ranking character would be given to command.  I know that it 
is
> unlikely for a full Lieutenant or Lt. Commander to get a command, but it
> isn't impossible.  In fact, I think they would commonly hold commands of
> smaller vessels, e.g. destroyer escorts, merc cruisers, patrol cruisers, 
etc.
>  Feel free to use examples of ships from CT through TNE if you like;  I am
> designing a small fleet of my own for this campaign, using CT "Fighting
> Ships" and "Brilliant Lances as guidelines.  Also, any input on appropriate
> ranks for "senior officers"  (Chief Engineer, Gunner, XO, etc.) would be
> greatly appreciated.  If this thread is inappropriate for the list please
> e-mail me privately with information or resources on where I can find this
> type of data.  
> 

I'll take a shot, with the likelihood of correction by those on this list
who have been military personnel in the various navies and other services
rep[resented here. >>

[snip]

Excellent post! Very useful. One comment, though: Given the large size of the 
Imperium, I get the feeling that - unless the Navy is very top-heavy - in many 
cases you'll see lower ranks given more responsibility. You may see a Cmdr in 
charge of an entire system, or a Captain in charge of a subsector fleet, 
because there's a huge amount of space and only a finite number of officers to 
go round.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:59:22 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Space Combat 

Glenn G. writes:

>Unfortunately, nearly everybody who played it got motion sickness. The
>realistic swirling of starfields (not matched by inertial data from the
>inner ear) was just too much for their stomaches to handle.
>
>I suspect humans are going to need some subtle modifications (genetic or
>chemical) in order to operate real space fighters without constantly
>throwing up.

	Actually, the seeds of the answer are right there in your
description of the problem: "...not matched by inertial data from the
inner ear..."

	Just set the inertial compensators so that they match ALMOST all
of the inertial force, leaving enough for the pilot to 'feel' what's
going on. Much simpler than geneering your pilots.

	Another part of the problem that those game designers noticed
isn't only do to loss of inner ear cues, but to the fact that their '3-d'
representation doesn't quite match up with reality.  This was particularly
pronounced with DOOM...everything is mapped to a flat planar
representation of the  world, and they didn't model the curvature effects
that we are used to, and compensate for. This was aggravating the inner
ear effect producing things like Doomsickness. Yes it's real, and is the
reason I can't play Doom, or other such games any more.  I got really
caught up in Doom II one day, and played for about 6 hours straight...when
I pulled away from the computer, I was suddenly dizzy, extremeley
nauseous, and had a roaring headache.  Now the memory is such that all I
have to do is look at a few seconds of movement on a Doom screen, and I
start getting queasy.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1996 18:39:20 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Deckplan layout

>Keep an eye on Babylon 5. The manuevers are realistic. It's the ranges
>and spacing that aren't.

I watch it when I can.  Agreed about the ranges and spacing.  Hadn't noticed
the maneuvers, but then I haven't seen that many episodes - I can't get it
here, so rely on tapes scrounged from more fortunate people.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 18:42 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

In-Reply-To: <199611240318.WAA02371@Nimbus.CAM.ORG>

<< Consider Clarke & Kubrick's _2001_. The space scenes are all as close 
to realistic as 1968 movie tech could make them, and today they still 
look utterly unlike those of any other movie (except, notably, IMAX 
movies shot aboard the Shuttle). The relative motions of spacecraft, 
planets, and starfields provide a great sense of audience involvement 
(lots of people start to feel spacesick during the "Blue Danube" station 
docking sequence). >>

I watched this again recently, for the first time in a couple of years. 
I'd forgotten just how wonderful the docking sequence was. Gotta be the 
best bit of *any* SF film.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 18:42 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Deckplan layout

In-Reply-To: <961123.202243.3a8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

<< Keep an eye on Babylon 5. The manuevers are realistic. It's the 
ranges and spacing that aren't.

You frequently see a ship making a firing pass, spin around so the
stern pointed in the direction it was travelling, and fire up the drive
to slow, stop and accelerate back for another pass. >>

It was *so* nice to see this! Finally, spaceships that obey the laws of 
physics! And the Starfuries are actually a sensible design for space 
fighters.
    
    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1996 18:50:58 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Intelligence Collection Platform

>  Here's a design for one of the many collection vessels used
>throughout the history of space travel.  The EMM systems and the extra
>computers are designed according to Fire, Fusion and Steel.  
>
>Solomani SX-2250 =B3HAWK WIND=B2 Intelligence Collection Platform

Any chance of your posting a TNE/Brilliant Lances version?  (Or emailing me
enough design data that I can run one up myself?)  I liked your design, but
because of a fundamental disagreement with the T4 ship combat rules (ie. they
give me a pain in the fundament) I still use TNE.  (Come to that, I still use
TNE rather than T4 for everything.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 15:37:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#686] House Rules and Ranks

"Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> writes...
T::>Here is a table of O ranks (from memory);

T::>Ensign
 ::>Lieutenant (j.g.)
 ::>Lieutenant
 ::>Lt. Commander
 ::>Commander
 ::>Captain
 ::>Commodore (see below)

T::>Flag Ranks;
 ::>Rear Admiral
 ::>Vice Admiral
 ::>Admiral
 ::>Admiral of the Fleet

 This is mostly correct for US forces.  In peacetime, it appears
 that the rank of Commodore is renamed to "Rear Admiral Lower
 Half", and Rear Admiral is "Rear Admiral Upper Half".  During
 wartime, it reverts to the above.

T::>All ships are commanded by Captains.  More senior officers are commanders
 ::>of squadrons, fleets or armadas of ships, not individual vessels (they
 ::>instruct the commanders under their orders, but do not interfere in the
 ::>running of the ship itself).  Even the largest Dreadnought is commanded by
 ::>a Captain (albiet a senior one) although there will often (almost always?)
 ::>be an admiral of one type or another along to command the Batron.

 This may not actually be correct, at least with US forces.  I
 know of several Coast Guard ships that were commanded by
 persons of rank Commander, for example.  However, the
 officer-in-command of any ship is universally addressed as
 "Captain" regardless of actual rank.  This even includes a
 Seaman Recruit placed in command of a rowboat.  Incidentally,
 there is only one person aboard a ship afloat who is addressed
 as "Captain"; this is the officer-in-command.  I have heard
 that a rank Captain riding as a passenger is either given a
 courtesy promotion to "Commodore", or is addressed by the land
 forces equivalent, "Colonel".

T::>Commodores are a special case.  Historically, Commodore was a rank between
 ::>Captain and Admiral.  More recently a Commodore is a title given to an
 ::>officer of Captain's rank who is acting as overall commander of a squadron
 ::>of ships.  The latter meaning is the one I recommend.  So a senior captain
 ::>will be appointed Commodore of a squadron of destroyers up to  Battleships
 ::>(up to 100k tons each) or a mixed task force of relatively small size for
 ::>a specific mission or period of time.

 Yes, except as noted above; the equivalent rank for peacetime
 (at least in US forces) is RALH, with RA becoming RAUH.

 Note that your way works nicely as well; this is not to say
 that you're _wrong_, just pointing out a familiar-to-many-on-
 -the-TML alternative structure.  My Imperial Navy tends to
 parallel the structure of US forces fairly closely, although
 just out of pure orneriness (or sometimes to point up that it's
 _not_ the US forces) I've occasionally changed the rank names.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  LOOK AT ME, I'M A TAGLINE!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #691
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Traveller-digest      Monday, November 25 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 692



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Collection and Jamming Sensor Suites
Multiplayer space sims
Re: Stuff & K'kree recipes
Re: Next Gen of Spacecraft???
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Stuff & K'kree recipes
Windsurfing (Was: Deck Plans : Orientation)
Re: [T96#686] House Rules and Ranks
Re: World building (Nitrogen I)
Space combat maneuvers
Re: Solomani Generred Critters
Re: Deckplan layout
More Broken Economics
MT2, Search for the Ancients
Deckplan layout
Larry Niven
Intelligence analysis
Bad Taste? 
Re: Deckplan layout
T4 down under?
I just went through QSDS for the first time and I have Questions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 96 16:33:19 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: Collection and Jamming Sensor Suites

  Continuing and expanding on the concept of starship-based intel
collection and ECM platforms, I've developed some new sensor suites. 
The values are calculated based on FFS, so if I've made any mistakes
in converting to QSDS, someone please let me know.

- ---------------------------------------------------------
Intelligence Collection and ECM Sensor Suites (for hull size 300 to
1000)
TL	Description	Vol.	Power	Cost		Area		Crew	USD Rating*
10	Basic		 2.5	130.3	  64		172		0.9	A10 P4x J0
10	Improved		19.3	130.4	 300		 52		0.9	A10 P6f J0
10	Advanced		21.1	290.4	 364		 84		1.4	A10 P6f J4
10	ECM Suite		 3.4	325.3	 142		198		1.4	A2  P4x J10
11	Basic		 1.2	 60.2	  32		 84		0.8	A10 P4x J0
11	Improved		 9.7	 60.3	 151		 24		0.8	A10 P6f J0
11	Advanced		10.0	140.3	 183		 40		1.2	A10 P6f J4
11	ECM Suite		 2.4	240.2	 103		 59		1.2	A4  P4x J16
12	Basic		 0.8	 60.7	  89.2	 17.6	1.1	A10 P4x J4
12	Improved		 5.3	 82.8	  98		 22		1.1	A10 P6f J10
12	Advanced		90.6	127.9	1308		 31		1.1	A10 P8f J16
14	Basic	 	 0.6	 41.1	  19.9	 12.7	0.8	A10 P4x J8
14	Improved		 4.9	 49.2	  83.6	 12.8	0.8	A10 P6f J12
14	Advanced		90.1	 65.3	1282		 16		0.8	A10 P8f J16

  At TL-12, the distinction between collection and jamming platforms
becomes blurred as antenna sizes and power requirements both decrease
rapidly.  
  All designs are intended for use in hull size 300dTons.  This is a
good size for a surveillance platform, combining a small profile with
a decent internal capacity.  The systems above will fit in any hull
size from 300 to 1000 tons without changing the numbers.
  * - Passive sensors have two letter codes after the range number. 
An =B3x=B2 indicates a fixed array.  An =B3f=B2 indicates a folding
array.  Active sensors use EMS arrays only.

Area Jammers:
TL	Range		MW	Vol	Cost	  
10	15000km		30	0.7	19.2			
10	30000km		60	1.4	38.4		
10	60000km		120	2.8	76.8		
11	15000km		15	0.3	 9.0		
11	30000km		30	0.6	18.0		
11	60000km		60	1.2	36.0		
12	15000km		 6.8	0.2	 5.4		
12	30000km		13.5	0.4	10.8		
12	60000km		27.0	0.8	21.6		
12	120000km		54.0	1.6	43.2		
14	15000km		 5.4	0.1	 4.1		
14	30000km		10.8	0.3	 8.2		
14	60000km		21.6	0.6	16.2		
14	120000km		43.2	1.2	32.4		

Sensor Decoy Dispensers:
USD
Size:	Volume	Volleys	Cost
7 (VS)	0.5		875		0.007				
8 (S)	0.5		700		0.007
9 (M)	0.5		580		0.007

Neutrino Sensors:			Densitometers:
TL	Vol		Cost			TL	Vol	Power	Area	Cost	
10	7.1		1			11	2.1	2.5		25	0.75	
12	0.7		2			12	1.1	1.0		10	0.90
14	0.3		3			14	0.6	0.5		 5	1.00

  Values for Area Jammers, Neutrino Sensors, Densitometers and Sensor
Decoy Dispensers are derived from Fire, Fusion and Steel.	


- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\        "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________odysseus@novia.net

Life begins at '030, fun starts at '040, impotence starts at '86.
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:03:26 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Multiplayer space sims

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>
>>         It also gives you an excellent idea of the sheer scale of space.
>> Last summer, I did a bunch of flights with it where I would just set the
>> ship thrusting and leave it running in realtime, then leave for work.  I'd
>> come home, make the neccessary corrections, read or watch some TV, correct
>> again before I went to sleep, and again in the AM, etc...  and this was
>> just bopping around the inner Solar System.  Space is big... even when
>> compared to running down the street to the chemist's ;).
>
>What I'd love to do is write a *good* space simulator, with
>multi-player networking capability. You could do campaigns in "real
>time". After all, in most cases you could see ships coming hours or
>days in advance. So "scheduling" battles for when folks had the free
>time would be workable.
>
>Design it to support Traveller-type ship design and then we don't
>*need* combat rules. :-)
>

        ICI Games, the guys who do Warbirds (a multiperson Internetted WWII
flight sim) are working on something they call Planetary Raiders.  It will
allow for multiperson play and ship customization.  However, it sounds way
arcadey, because they seem to be avoiding the same kind of constraints you
mention.

        Space sim wise, what I'd like to see would be a) Mac compatible, b)
have a decent autopilot so you could do realistic trajectories, c)
extensive design capabilities, and d) multiplayer capability, both
multi-ship and single-ship(!).

        Extreme, slavish adherence to the laws of physics is of course a
sine qua non :).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:17:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stuff & K'kree recipes

In mail you write:

> aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote
>
>>I like K'kree. But I couldn't eat a whole one...
>
> Naw, but think of the Filet Mignon..
>
> David Smart <dsmart@flash.net> wrote
>
>>Oh, geez, you are SICK! I can't believe this!
>>How could you say something
>>so disgusting?!?
>>*Everybody* knows you're suppose to deep-fry 'em.
>
> Only if your doing Cajun..
> Braised with Shallots and garlic for that
> continental flair. Or Grilled with Green
> peppers and onoins for Southwestrn..
> Not to mention what the brits can do with
> Sausage (No I'm not kidding) 8-)..
>
> "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
>
>>Well... as pot roast they ain't bad either! :)
>
> Now the Down-Easters have spoken, don't
> forget the Cabbage..

Well, it seems to me that they are best suited to a texas-style
barbecue. Whole K'kree carcasses turning on spits over huge beds of
glowing mesquite charcoal.... Huge slabs of ribs smothered in barbecue
sauce... mmm mmm




- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:03:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Next Gen of Spacecraft???

In mail you write:

>> And yes, I do know about Black Horse. I also know about the Delta-X
>> and Delta-Y (pity they picked somthing else for the "next generation").
>> I also know about vehicles like Spacecub.
>     Tells you how up to date I am, I only knew about one of these.  Care to
> detail the rest of them?

That should have been DC-X and DC-Y (it was late). They were test
prototypes for a VTOL SSTO. They didn't make the final cut in the
competition for the "next generation" orbiter. :-(

Spacecub is a plan that started out as a single seater sub-orbital "kit
plane"! They revised their plans a few months back to go after some
prize. So the revised design will be a 3 or 4 seater. Again VTOL. 

VTOL is popular because it lets you practice landings easily. You just
load up a *little* fuel, boost up a few meters and then throttle back.
Then you take progressivvely longer "bunny hops", until youare finally
landing after a fair amount of "free flight" time. Once you get that
far, all you need to worry about is the fun stuff at the peak of a full
powered flight (basicly re-entering at the right angle).

One interesting suggestion for the original Spacecub design was using
them for parcel express type services. They'd only have a 600 km
cross-range capability, but they can cover that in less than 30
minutes. The scaled up design would be even better (more cargo space). 

"Sub-orbital Express. When it has to be there in an hour...."

Remember, once you get things scaled up a bit more, it's 45 minutes to
*anywhere* on Earth.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:07:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

Thus spake "Douglas" <douglas@teleport.com>:

In response to a post by Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>:

> > In mail you write:
> > > On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

[steering/station-keeping thrusters not nearly as powerful as the mains]

> > > That depends on which version of the the rules we apply.  Admittedly,
> > > all
> > > the basic books refer to ships turning over, but in (I believe)
> > > the Starship Operators Handbook, they were pretty specific about the
> > > directions and the amounts of thrust a M-Drive could generate.
> > 
> > I have some problems with what I've heard of that.
> 
> It solved a lot of the problems I had with some of the rules.  For
> instance, a 400 ton Fat Trader, able to push 1G, landing on a world size of
> A (which means over 1 G of local gravity), how does it take off?  I had
> been playing around with the idea of starship sized JATO units! :)  It does
> allow for more agile ships, plus I liked the overdrive rule...it lets the
> engineer have a bit more to do with the ship than just fix it.

According to that same document, thruster plates can generate 
approximately 25% of their normal rated thrust in any direction 90 
degrees of the normal thrust axis (or, if you will, NORMAL to the normal 
thrust axis <g>).  Also, it specifies that thruster plates can be 
overdriven up to 400% of their normal rated thrust for short periods of 
time, say, short enough for a 1-G thruster-equipped ship to lift off.  Of 
course, back in the MT days, we just sort of IGNORED the fact that, with 
your thruster plates in the aft part of your ship, your center of thrust 
isn't going to be anywhere near your center of gravity.  The CT-CG 
problem is fixed in T4 with contragravity units that not only negate 99% 
of the pull of gravity (as in TNE/FF&S) but also impart thrust, which 
would serve to keep the ship stable/level as it lifts.

At least, that's all the handwaving that *I'm* willing to do...

This is probably echoing or contradicting a whole bunch of posts which I 
haven't seen yet.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:14:56 -0800
From: cwebb@ctainforms.com (Christopher E. Webb)
Subject: Re: Stuff & K'kree recipes

> (Numerous cooking ideas later . . .)
>
>Well, it seems to me that they are best suited to a texas-style
>barbecue. Whole K'kree carcasses turning on spits over huge beds of
>glowing mesquite charcoal.... Huge slabs of ribs smothered in barbecue
>sauce... mmm mmm
>

So, who's doing the recipe book?  And where do I get it?

Christopher Webb

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:18:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Windsurfing (Was: Deck Plans : Orientation)

Thus spake shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):

Some other guy wrote:

[massive deletia]

> > If I were going to bring a big, lumbering, unstreamlined
> > ship into an atmosphere, I wouldn't accelerate hard or move very
> > fast.  I'd take my time drifting down and move very slowly...
> > I would, in fact, behave as little like a rocket as possible.
> 
> Doesn't matter. You are going to be moving. And the slower you move, the
> *more* likely you are to run into winds moving *faster* than you are.
> 
> You can reduce *your* speed (relative to the *ground*. You can't do
> anything about the winds. It does no good to reduce your speed to 10
> mph, as you *will* run into winds moving faster than that.
> 
> Wind speed can change by 50 to 100 (or more!) mph in the process of
> changing altitude by a couple hundred feet.

Of course, the sad thing is is that it's just our atmosphere he's talking 
about.  On worlds with a higher luminosity factor (sun is hotter and/or 
planet is closer to it), a greater axial tilt, a greater atmospheric 
density, or any combination of these factors (plus whatever ones I've 
failed to mention), the figures named above will seem to be like a polite 
belch in comparison.

So, what color is YOUR parachute?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:33:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [T96#686] House Rules and Ranks

Thus spake jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN):

>  This may not actually be correct, at least with US forces.  I
>  know of several Coast Guard ships that were commanded by
>  persons of rank Commander, for example.  However, the
>  officer-in-command of any ship is universally addressed as
>  "Captain" regardless of actual rank.  This even includes a
>  Seaman Recruit placed in command of a rowboat.  Incidentally,
>  there is only one person aboard a ship afloat who is addressed
>  as "Captain"; this is the officer-in-command.  I have heard
>  that a rank Captain riding as a passenger is either given a
>  courtesy promotion to "Commodore", or is addressed by the land
>  forces equivalent, "Colonel".

One ticklish situation that comes to mind is with the former Soviet navy, 
where ship commanders were backed up (read:  overseen) by political 
officers who often also held captain's rank.  As far as I know, the 
commander of the ship still had seniority, if not higher rank, than the 
zampolit, but I'm not sure that this was always the case -- I'm just a 
layperson here, not a subject-matter expert.

For those of you who didn't know:  The zampolit's function was to ensure 
that the ship commander's decisions were 'politically correct.'  The 
parallel command structure was developed to insure that military units 
always acted in the best interests of the Communist Party of the Soviet 
Union.  With all of the different, wacky political and military entities 
possible in the Traveller universe, such a parallel command structure 
could be present in a different form with different names.  I'd like to 
think, however, were I a captain under such circumstances, that I'd be able 
to find safe, deniable methods for wearing out my political officers quickly.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:33:04 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: World building (Nitrogen I)

Leonard Erickson says:

> Hal Clement's sequel to "Mission of Gravity" ("Star Light") has a type
> 1 planet. 

>> Furthermore, ammonia is quite soluble in liquid water, which could help
>> preserve it. Also, water and ammonia have different temperature ranges
>> where they are liquid: If the water freezes out, ammonia oceans become
>> possible.

> Doesn't work that way. The *mixture* has a freezing/boiling point that
> varies widely with concentration. Phase diagrams of water/ammonia
> mixtures are really weird. "Star Light" made good use of the
> weirdnesses that result.

I even read "Star Light"! (don't rememeber the name of the world).
I still don't think Mesklinites would breathe hydrogen any more than a fish
drinks water.

I didn't think through the ammonia-water sytem completely.
One possibility is that dissolved ammonia would drastically lower the
freezing point of an ammonia-water solution. Water dissolved in ammonia
might lower its freezing point slightly. At a certain concentration, the
mixture would have a minimum freezing point.
With mixtures richer in water than this concentration, the ice would freeze
out first, and concentrate the ammonia in the water, while with mixtures
richer in water, the ammonia would freeze out first. If this 
is the case, you would be correct and their would be no pure ammonia
oceans, only mixtures. On the other hand, the boiling point of a
water-ammonia mixture should undergo a steady decrease, as the ammonia
concentration rises. In any case, the gas or vapor should be richer in
ammonia than the corresponding liquid.
The various melting/freezing points and condensation/boiling points depend
on the concentrations of the components and their pressures. The
meteorology of any such world would be indeed be quite complex.

The prime characteristic of a type I environment is an excess of hydrogen,
so that gas giants, Mesklin itself, and the other world you mention all
qualify, despite their great differences.
 
Also, somebody's computer forgot to delete my retrieved messages Friday, so
I may have missed a few from Friday evening-Saturday morning,
to mailbox overflow.

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:32:58 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Space combat maneuvers

> You frequently see a ship making a firing pass, spin around so the
> stern pointed in the direction it was travelling, and fire up the drive
> to slow, stop and accelerate back for another pass.

A better tactic for targets that don't shoot back is to point your ship and
guns toward them, and drives in the opposite direction. With any kind of
velocity vector perpendicular to that direction, if you fire your engines
at just the right power level, you circle the target.

  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:32:55 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Solomani Generred Critters

>>Horses or donkeys, bird species such as parrots, and octopi.

> Birds don't possess complex enough brains to really make an uplift
> realistic.  There is already an octopod, aquatic race (The Githansko?) 

I thought we were discussing races that the Solomani had geneered... are
the Githansko such a race, or are they native to their planet?

Uplift does not necessarily have to proceed to full sapience (however you
define that) and some of the birds are quite intelligent already.

I once drove by a hawk that was sitting in the road eating roadkill. Most
birds fly away when a car approaches them, but this one calmly sat and
watched me go by, since I was in "the other" lane. Pretty smart, for a
birdbrain. Maybe it's just prejudice, but I'd try a parrot, raven, or
raptor before I'd think of a kangaroo.

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:33:00 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

> It solved a lot of the problems I had with some of the rules.  For
> instance, a 400 ton Fat Trader, able to push 1G, landing on a 
> world size of A (which means over 1 G of local gravity), how does it
> take off?  I had been playing around with the idea of starship sized
> JATO units! :) 

In TNE, neutralizing (most of) the gravity is the work of the CG lifters,
leaving the 1G maneuver drive free to do the remainder plus accelerate the
ship to orbital velocity, or deccelerate to the proper surface velocity
from orbital speeds. 
 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:48:55 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: More Broken Economics

More Broken Economics

To maintain an ordinary diet and living quarters a citizen of the =
TRAVELLER UNIVERSE requires CR14 per day or CR5,110 per year. If we =
imagine that is 25% of the citizen's annual income we arrive at =
CR20,440.

Using the same model for the citizen at high level we have CR30 per day =
or CR10,950 per year. Again, we imagine that is 25% of the citizen's =
salary and we arrive at CR43,800 annual income.

Further, a retiree at 62 with 44 years of service earns a pension of =
CR14,000. That seems reasonable given the assumptions made above.

Now let us look at the starship pilot. A pilot with a skill of 3 must be =
paid CR7,200 per month or CR86,400 per year. At that salary the pilot =
has no expenses for room and board while aboard ship. So the pilot makes =
almost 8 times the amount required to maintain a high level diet and =
living quarters and almost twice the annual salary of our citizen living =
at high level.

Is this in line with what you would expect a pilot to make?

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 96 13:04:06 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: MT2, Search for the Ancients

     I have a copy of this game, but couldn't be bothered playing it 
     through even *with* a complete solution. It is just too bloody awful 
     for words. 
     
     However, it looks like it was written in pretty close consultation 
     with GDW, and so I reckon it is fairly 'canonical'. Does anybody have 
     a crack or trainer that would let me zip through and extract the 
     useful bits without having to deal with the dreadful clunky game 
     engine? 
     
     Help me out here - 
     Michael B. 
     
     PS I am indeed working on a generation system for Roos. 
     PPS Roos as advance scouts for a K'kree invasion...it's just too damn 
     *weird* _not_ to be true...
     PPPS My house rule also determines that Roos aboard starships must 
     wear helmets at all times, or suffer -1 int from brain damage for each 
     week aboard...<boing-THUD!> <boing-THUD!> <boing-THUD!> ...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 23:39:59 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Deckplan layout

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

>I've always designed military vessels in vertical configuration on the
>assumption that that would make it easier for damage control teams to move
>about during combat.  I wouldn't want to have to drag a several hundred
>kilo part up a ladder when I could be moving it with a handtruck in a
>vertically oriented vessel. 

Wouldn't you put a grav belt or two on the heavy item to neutralize its weight while you 
carried it?

Do you leave ship's internal gravity on or off during combat?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 96 13:15:41 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: Larry Niven

     Larry Niven's _Protector_ is the book to check out for space combat 
     sequences. Bussard ramjet-equipped ships with a variety of high-tech 
     weapons AND: 
     
     Somebody takes out an enemy ship using a rifle...in a most unusual 
     manner! Uh, uh, uh - I won't spoil it for anybody! 

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 96 13:35:37 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: Intelligence analysis

     Before we go off on tangents with a zillion different sub-skills for 
     intel careers, how about this idea: 
     
     A _single_ skill (Intel; so named not to be confused with Intelligence 
     characteristic), based on INT and EDU 
     This skill allows gathering of various information together into an 
     integrated picture, and permits prediction of future activity based on 
     knowledge of past dispositions and behaviours. 
     
     Difficulties depend on the task, eg: 
     
     Basic information about adversary (eg typical weaponry, equipment, 
     racial characteristics): 2D difficulty
     
     Detailed information about adversary: (common tactical responses to 
     combat situations): 3D difficulty
     
     Close analysis of adversary dispositions: (likely positions of enemy 
     based on partial data) 
     
     Deep analysis of adversary: (analysis of commander's objectives and 
     means used to achieve those objectives)
     
     However, Intel skill cannot be used on its own. The Intel officer must 
     possess a complementary skill to build up the Intel picture: 
     
     eg Intel & Tactics - battlefield intelligence analysis, prediction of 
     enemy behaviour
     Intel + Recon - analysis of close recon and tracking data 
     Intel + Criminology - analysis of criminal activity
     Intel + Sensors - detection of enemy via remote sensors
     Intel + Computer + Tactics - creating computer model that simulates 
     enemy behaviour in a given tactical situation. 
     
     USAGE: 
     *Lowest available skill: eg Intel-3 and Tactics-2 would allow a roll 
     bonus of +2 for a battlefield intelligence analysis. 
     
     *Double roll: for more detail, roll using both skills and the results 
     will more closely explain partial successes 
     eg Successful roll for tactics, failure for Intel = good data, 
     analysis error
     failure for tactics, success for Intel = good analysis, based on bad 
     data interpretation
     success for tactics, critical failure for Intel = good data, 
     disastrous analysis ---> very bad tactical error
     etc etc  etc. 
     
     Intel + Leadership = 'leader' can combine the abilities of a number of 
     additional Intel analysts up to the level of their Intel or Leadership 
     skills, whichever is lower. All team members must have at least 
     Intel-1 in order to participate. 
     
     This allows the construction of Intel 'teams', which can combine 
     available skills together. A well-functioning Intel team can use the 
     best available Intel skill with the best available of any other skills 
     as part of their Intelligence analysis. 
     eg A team consists of the following members: 
     1. Intel-3, Leader-4
     2. Intel-2, Tactics-4
     3. Intel-4, Sensors-1, Tactics-5
     4. Intel-1, Recon-3 
     
     The team leader can combine team skills of a maximum of three members 
     excluding themself. Thus the team has available: 
     Tactics-3, Recon-3, Sensors-1, Leader-3, Intel-3. 
     
     <level-3 is maximum because of the team leader's level of intel 
     expertise, but team member 3. could work on their own for better 
     results>
     
     Comments? 

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 96 13:36:33 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: Bad Taste? 

     Anybody with an interest in geneered critters should check out _Meet 
     the Feebles_ by the same guys that brought us _Bad Taste_. 
     
     This should be a warning to anybody that wants to introduce geneered 
     animals to the Entertainer career stream...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 21:19:27 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

Glenn Grant wrote:
<< snippage lamenting the state of cinematic space combat scenes >>
>Mind you, I once read an interview with one of the founders of Virtuality
>Systems, makers of the Dactyl Nightmare VR game, and he said they had
>developed a space-combat game that used somewhat realistic vectored thrust
>- the fighters could zoom around in three dimensions, the whole bit.
>Unfortunately, nearly everybody who played it got motion sickness. The
>realistic swirling of starfields (not matched by inertial data from the
>inner ear) was just too much for their stomaches to handle.
>
>I suspect humans are going to need some subtle modifications (genetic or
>chemical) in order to operate real space fighters without constantly
>throwing up.

Only if they insist on looking out the window!

I imagine that space fighters use a VR imaging system that "edits out" 
the starfield. All those points of light would be distracting. Planets, 
other charted bodies and the local star (sun) would still show on the 
visual, and facing and location of the fighter would be shown by a 
directional marker on a static map. The only swirling on the map would me 
the relative movement of nearby spacecraft and what-not.

Space combat in Traveller, by its very nature, is slow, methodical, and 
strategic. More of a naval battle in three dimensions than any dogfight. 
The distances in space combat mean it would be useless to fight 
"visually" as you can't even *see* the enemy.

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:42:35 +1300
From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Subject: T4 down under?

Hi there all,

I've been off the list for some time and was woundering if T4 had reached
NZ of Aus shores?



Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Private Bag 3105
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  NEW ZEALAND                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:50:22 -0500 (EST)
From: matth@homer.njit.edu (Matthew Harelick)
Subject: I just went through QSDS for the first time and I have Questions.

Hi: 

Here are some questions regarding QSDS.

1. Sensors. QSDS gives sensors ratings like AxPpJj. It then uses them
in combat. 

I am wondering what kind of information one can actually get from 
a sensor. For instance, can a sensor tell the operator which kind of
weapons a ship has and the quantity?

Can they read the serial numbers off the ship?

Can they count the hairs off the pilots nose? 

Just how much can they do? 

2. Standard Hulls. I noticed that QSDS creates a bunch of standard hulls which
have each place structural limits on the number of G's that the ship
can pull. For example a Far Trader is built with a Box S hull with 
a maximum acceleration of 1 G. 

Has anyone created any rules to allow players to modify the hull to 
increase its structural integrity. 



- -- 
Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #692
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Traveller-digest      Monday, November 25 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 693



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

MegaTraveller Auction:  Update #2
Re: Deckplan layout
re: I just went through QSDS for the first time and I have Questions.
Peter Newman, where are you?
Re: Where to send E-Mail to Imperium Games
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: Intelligence analysis
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Intelligence analysis
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: Intelligence Collection Starship
Re: Intelligence analysis
Copyright Violation
For Michael Barry
Re: [T96#686] House Rules and Ranks
Re: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: House Rules: Active Duty

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:24:22 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: MegaTraveller Auction:  Update #2

Hey gang!  I have the following Traveller/MegaTraveller books
available:

I have the following items available for auction.
(Condition:  5-Mint to 1-Poor)

GDW:
MegaTraveller:  Astrogators' Guide to the Diaspora Sector
Sector Map, UWP stats (MT & Hard Times Era) for Diaspora Sector
Condition: 3  (Wear on Spine) 
Minimum Bid: $3

MegaTraveller:  Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
Condition: 4  (Slight Wear on Spine)
Current high bids:
$10 hbill@primenet.com
$8 lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz

MegaTraveller: Referee's Companion
Condition: 3 (Slight Wear on Spine, Bend on Front Cover) 
Minimum Bid: $8

MegaTraveller: Rebellion Sourcebook
Condition: 4 (Slight Wear on Spine)
$12 hbill@primenet.com

DGP:
Travellers' Digest #19:
Contains 2 Adventures, UWP Stats, Library Data & Sector Maps for Deneb
& Riftspan Reaches Sectors Condition: 4 (Some Wear on Cover) 
$4 truestar@pipeline.com

The following are the auction rules:

1) Open bids will be accepted until Midnight MST on Saturday December
7, 1996.  

2)  Two (2) highest bidders as of above deadline will be contacted
individually on Sunday December 8th, and asked to submit a final bid. 
They will have until December 10, 1996 Midnight (Tuesday) to submit
this final bid.

3)  Bids will be accepted in minimum increments of $1.  Please note
minimum bids being taken for all items.  Bids of $XX more than highest
bidder will be accepted only during the open bidding period, and will
only be effective for the current day's bidding.

4) Auction updates will be posted daily.

5) All costs do not include freight.

6)  IMPORTANT:  Save bandwidth, please send all bids by e-mail to:
sdollar@goodnet.com.

Stu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:56:46 -0500
From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

At 2:39 AM -0500 11/24/96, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
>>I've always designed military vessels in vertical configuration on the
>>assumption that that would make it easier for damage control teams to move
>>about during combat.  I wouldn't want to have to drag a several hundred
>>kilo part up a ladder when I could be moving it with a handtruck in a
>>vertically oriented vessel.
>
>Wouldn't you put a grav belt or two on the heavy item to neutralize its
>weight while you
>carried it?
>
>Do you leave ship's internal gravity on or off during combat?

I leave ship's gravity on, acting on the assumption that I can't have
inertial compensation if I don't.

If you don't have a functioning ship's gravity, can you still use grav
lifters?  Do they require a g-field to push against?

Also, I wouldn't want to depend on a fragile electronic gadget to do the
lifting - if the ship takes a hit or does a quick burst of accel to evade
and the g-belt gets pinched between the heavy object and a wall, the belt
is a lot more likely to break down than a simple cart is.

DC gangs in combat are pretty likely to just grab the part and lug it
rather than try and hunt down a grav lifter - besides, murphy being murphy,
there's a good chance that battle damage has either obliterated the supply
locker with the g-lifts, or made it so you can't get there from here.


Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

Earth First! We'll strip mine the other planets later.
PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:23:38 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: I just went through QSDS for the first time and I have Questions.

>1. Sensors. QSDS gives sensors ratings like AxPpJj. It then uses them
>in combat. 

>I am wondering what kind of information one can actually get from 
>a sensor. For instance, can a sensor tell the operator which kind of
>weapons a ship has and the quantity?

>Can they read the serial numbers off the ship?

The numbers are the sensor short range in old-fashioned Brilliant Lances
Hexes (1 hex=30,000km.) Out to the sensors extreme range (8 times short range)
it can succesfully lock onto a target - which gives you about 5-10 pixels
across the target's hull, enough to identify the class.

At shorter ranges (2-4 times SR) it could begin to identify non-standard
features (extra turrets) and gain information about an unknown class.
At the listed short range it can easily detect small hull features like
airlocks or markings.

So, in a non-combat situation, a P4 sensor could identify a ship's class
at 8x4x30,000 = 960,000 km; it could count turrets at 480,000km, read
the registration numbers at 120,000km. 

In combat, using the T4 rules, I would say that getting a succesful sensor
lock lets you determine the class - for seeing more details, use the
distances above. (T4 range bands are 10/20/40/80 hexes, so the P4 sensor
could count turrets at short range (T4 bands are very short/short/medium/long,
right?) and read registration numbers at very short.)

Some day, Derek Wildstar and I will write an article on this for JTAS...

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@astro.ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:35:26 +1100
From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Subject: Peter Newman, where are you?

Hi Peter,

Got your letter today, and there's a major problem - a cheque in US$ drawn
on your local US Bank is worthless locally (well, not exactly, but it
would cost me more than its worth in Bank Charges to "cash" :-(

AFAIR the last time I cashed a US$ cheque (royalties for Rigger Black Book
from FASA, several years ago), it was around A$6-7 to cash - *and* took
around 28 working days for the funds to clear, to boot :-{ I would guess
that our Banks' current "user pays" drive of "rationalisatoon" would mean
that it has, at the very least, not gone down. This would mean your
US$6.50 (around A$8.12) would, at best, come close to the charges for
clearing it.

In case I didn't make it clear to anyone who wants to order a copy of
"Dark Star" #1 (and there are around 5 copies left at the special
introductory price, even after keeping two for Peter) at US$3/stg2, there
are really only five ways to get me the money -

1) Send me notes - US$3 (three x $1); stg2 - er, well, you *can't* do this
as you only have coins in this denomination (unless you're Scottish!)
now.

2) Go to your Post Office, and ask for *three* INTERNATIONAL REPLY COUPONS
(and if the counter Clerk claims they don't exist, politely ask to see
their supervisor, or that they look up their Handbook), each of which is
worth one *letter* rate stamp at the country it is cashed in (and, since
DS is larger and heavier than a letter, it takes around 2.5 to pay for
postage alone). Unfortunately, unless *your* Post Awful is better than
OzPost, these will cost considerably *more* than $3/stg2

3) Go to your Bank or Credit Union and get a BANK DRAFT in $Australian for
$3. Unfortunately, there is often a minimum charge over and above that for
the actual $3, which will make this unattractive in most cases.

4) Go to your local Bureau de Change or *large* Bank (probably only
possible in large, cosmopolitan, cities) and ask if you can buy $3 in
notes ... except that you can't do that any more, as *we* don't have $1 or
$2 notes any more (only coins :-(  ... so you'd have to get an A$5 note
(Thomas Cook or similar travel agents may have small amounts of OzDollars
on hand as well, again, only in large and cosmopolitan cities).

5) Get a Postal Money Order for A$3 at your Post Office. But there is a
minimum charge, and this will cost more than option (1).

Anyone who doesn't like sending cash through the mails. Well, in 27 years
of purchasing stuff by mail order from the US and UK I've never had any
problems with lost mail except once, and that wasn't lost mail - they just
claimed it was to keep the Better Business Bureau off their backs. So I
will get your letter/money. And, well, you can ask around the group - all
those people who have sent money have got their magazine promptly!

So, Peter, please contact me at the email address below and we'll see what
we can work out to minimise the delay.

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@.curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:04:34 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Where to send E-Mail to Imperium Games

> 
> >As noted on the first page of IG's web site, if you want to drop them an

> >email note, the address to send to is: sweetpea10@msn.com
> 
>         I don't want to be dull, but that address would be more helpful
if
> they ever answer to the messages. I tried several times, and still no
response.
> 
> Carlos.
> 

Carlos: I sent an email to the address, and I got an immediate response.
Try again:)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:35:43 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

> 
> I have just started to write some house rules for my latest campaign
> regarding active duty Naval characters (and one scout.)  I plan to use
the
> command rule from MT for determining whether or not a PC can be posted to
a
> command during the campaign, and I have a question.  I have never been in
the
> military, and most of my "naval" knowledge comes from "Star Trek:TNG" and
> "Mr. Roberts" with Henry Fonda.  (Great movie.) 

Agreed about the latter film. It's definately underrated!

> I'm curious what sort of
> ships a lower ranking character would be given to command.  I know that
it is
> unlikely for a full Lieutenant or Lt. Commander to get a command, but it
> isn't impossible.

IIRC, a future President,  Lieutenant (JG) John F. Kennedy, USNR, commanded
a small craft, PT-109, in combat against the Imperial Japanese Navy in WW2.
In consulting some of my other books on WW2 Naval history, Senior
lieutenants and LtCommanders commanded submarines . . . .

In Trav terms, this is what "feels right" to me (a former USN petty
officer):

	SDBs and Patrol Cruisers: The former command would be the billet of a
senior O-2 (LtJG in US terms), the latter a billet for a full Lieutenant
(O-3).

	DEs: A full Lieutenant, minimum.

	Merc Cruisers: Lt. Commander. I can check the RC Personalities book to see
just where in the rank structure "Hammer" Lathrop and "Who Me?" Ritter were
when they were assigned to the mercenary cruiser _Ashtabula_. 

	Auxillary Cruiser: In the TNE novels, the RCS _Hornet_, a converted 200
ton Far Trader, was                         commanded by a full Lieutenant
with the XO ranked as an Ensign. This may not be appropriate for a Third
Imperium-type campaign since RC is noted for it's informality and overall
make-it-up-as-they-go atmosphere.

	DDs: LtCommander, minimum. 

	Starburst-class CL : I'd say a Commander.

	Planet-class CA and larger: O-6 Captains.

	XOs should be one rank lower, and no more. 

	Department Heads (Chief Engineer, Tactical Officer -- my campaign's  term,
borrowed from David Webber's _Honor Harrington_ series, for 'Chief Gunner'
) -- 2 ranks lower. For small ships, these "department heads" may well be
Petty Officers or CPOs.
  



> In fact, I think they would commonly hold commands of
> smaller vessels, e.g. destroyer escorts, merc cruisers, patrol cruisers,
etc.
>  Feel free to use examples of ships from CT through TNE if you like;  I
am
> designing a small fleet of my own for this campaign, using CT "Fighting
> Ships" and "Brilliant Lances as guidelines.  Also, any input on
appropriate
> ranks for "senior officers"  (Chief Engineer, Gunner, XO, etc.) would be
> greatly appreciated.  If this thread is inappropriate for the list please
> e-mail me privately with information or resources on where I can find
this
> type of data.  
> 

Hope this helps!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:50:57 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Intelligence analysis

> 
>      Before we go off on tangents with a zillion different sub-skills for

>      intel careers, how about this idea: 
>      
>      A _single_ skill (Intel; so named not to be confused with
Intelligence 
>      characteristic), based on INT and EDU 
>      This skill allows gathering of various information together into an 
>      integrated picture, and permits prediction of future activity based
on 
>      knowledge of past dispositions and behaviours. 

<<cool snippage>>

>      
>      However, Intel skill cannot be used on its own. The Intel officer
must 
>      possess a complementary skill to build up the Intel picture: 
>      
>      eg Intel & Tactics - battlefield intelligence analysis, prediction
of 
>      enemy behaviour
>      Intel + Recon - analysis of close recon and tracking data 
>      Intel + Criminology - analysis of criminal activity
>      Intel + Sensors - detection of enemy via remote sensors
>      Intel + Computer + Tactics - creating computer model that simulates 
>      enemy behaviour in a given tactical situation. 

This is imaginative!!

<<snip city>>
>      
>      This allows the construction of Intel 'teams', which can combine 
>      available skills together. A well-functioning Intel team can use the

>      best available Intel skill with the best available of any other
skills 
>      as part of their Intelligence analysis. 
>      eg A team consists of the following members: 
>      1. Intel-3, Leader-4
>      2. Intel-2, Tactics-4
>      3. Intel-4, Sensors-1, Tactics-5
>      4. Intel-1, Recon-3 
>      
>      The team leader can combine team skills of a maximum of three
members 
>      excluding themself. Thus the team has available: 
>      Tactics-3, Recon-3, Sensors-1, Leader-3, Intel-3. 
>      
>      <level-3 is maximum because of the team leader's level of intel 
>      expertise, but team member 3. could work on their own for better 
>      results>
>      
>      Comments? 

Michael, I LIKE this!! Thanks!!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:05:18 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

In a message dated 96-11-24 22:22:13 EST, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> The distances in space combat mean it would be useless to fight 
>  "visually" as you can't even *see* the enemy.

Which leads me to something I have long wondered about: at what distance in
space are ships, stations, etc., visible to the naked eye?  I realize this
will never come up in combat, but, say you are trying to dock at a highport.
 When can you actually look out the window and see it?  Anyone have any idea?
 Pure curiousity, witht the intent of adding more "feel" to my campaign.
 Thanks.

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:05:24 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence analysis

In a message dated 96-11-24 21:38:43 EST, Michael.Barry wrote:

>  A _single_ skill (Intel; so named not to be confused with Intelligence 
>       characteristic), based on INT and EDU 
>       This skill allows gathering of various information together into an 
>       integrated picture, and permits prediction of future activity based
on 
>       knowledge of past dispositions and behaviours. <Followed by very
specific rules ideas>

Your idea generally works for me.  I plan to write up the full house rule
"Military Intelligence" career sometime this week and post it by Friday,
barring unforseen conflicts.  Since I started the thread various people have
given me some great ideas of how to make it work, which I will probably quote
liberally.  I assume nobody minds, and I'll try to give credit where due at
the end.  If anybody strongly objects to me doing so (quoting, that is),
please e-mail me privately.  

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:05:27 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

In a message dated 96-11-24 11:12:54 EST, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> I get the feeling that - unless the Navy is very top-heavy - in many 
>  cases you'll see lower ranks given more responsibility. You may see a Cmdr

> in charge of an entire system, or a Captain in charge of a subsector fleet,

>  because there's a huge amount of space and only a finite number of
officers 
> to go round.

Well, OK.  There aren't many modern day (or Imperial British Navy) parallels
to Known Space in terms of scope, so this, IMHO, becomes a matter of opinion.
 So, without further ado, IMHO, I don't think so.  Maybe a Commander (even a
Lt. Cmdr.) would be given command of a small or less strategically important
system, but, fleets would probably be given to nothing less than a Commodore
(or Rear Admiral Lower Half, as the esteemed Jeff Zeitlin informs us.)  This
would tend to make the Navy a little bloated in it's higher ranks, but,
promotions don't come all that often, don't you know (only once per term.)
 Further, I imagine a subsector being (very) roughly equivalent to a theater
of operations in WWII, and, so far as I know, nothing less than an Admiral
(in any variety of flavors) was given charge of a theater.  Also, I'm not
sure that a Marine or Army General might not have command of military
operations in some subsectors, at least in times of war.  After all, Stormin'
Norman was (IIRC) the Supreme Allied Commander for Desert Shield/Storm,
responsible for the total action of all allied forces (Army, Navy, Air Force
& Marines from a smattering of nations.)  Perhaps, occasionally, a Major
General+ is given command of total operations in a given subsector, directing
Task Forces and Fleets (commanded by a Commodore or Rear Admiral) to provide
Naval support for ongoing operations.  If all three major forces (Navy,
Marine, and Army) are responsible for providing the top brass in any
particular theater (or subsector, or sector, for that matter) it would keep
any one service from carrying too much weight at the top.  Finally, I would
think, in a fuedal society, having many top officers would be an advantage
for nobles, as it would prevent any one Admiral from establishing a
significant enough power base to contest the rule of his local Marquis, Duke
or Archduke.  Whaddya think?

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:05:30 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence Collection Starship

In a message dated 96-11-23 20:11:40 EST, Jeff Kazmierski wrote:

>   The few who actually do the intel collection will spend their time
>  wearing headsets, sitting behind a rack in a cold, cramped, dark
>  starship operating at minimal power and loitering at the edge of enemy
>  star systems, listening for any sign of enemy signals activity,
>  recording everything they hear.  They are likely to be assigned on
>  missions lasting one or two months at a time, leaving only at the end
>  of the mission or if they are detected.  It's tedious, slow, dangerous
>  work, with little chance of recognition or reward.


No doubt.  Though I have often felt that much of that collection process
would fall to the able hands of the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service, as
much as the "military" services.  According to CT Book 6 Scouts (an early
Traveller watershed for me) the scouts maintained an Intelligence branch as
part of the Detached Duty Office.  Many former (i.e., player character)
scouts fall into the jurisdiction of the Detached Duty Office when they
receive the scout ship benefit upon mustering out.  I've always played it
that any scouts who have a scout ship are required to make routine reports of
where they've been and what they've seen when next they drop by a way station
or base.  This data is then farmed out to the Intelligence branch, who then
sends it to the appropriate Intelligence division (Army or Navy, depending on
the nature of the information) for further analysis.  Scouts make an ideal
choice for intelligence gathering because:

a.) They're ubiquitous.  You can't go to a system these days without running
into a scout ship delivering mail, mapping navigational hazards, conducting
detailed surveys, etc.  No better way to disguise a spy than hide them in
plain sight.

b.) They're not always "active duty."  Detached scouts can go almost
anywhere, do almost anything and are...

c.) Deniable.  Hey, the Scouts aren't "military."  Really.  That scout was
just in your system investigating reports of odd gravitic anomalies in your
planetoid belt.  He stumbled into a secret refueling base, you say?
Well...oops.  Sorry.

d.) They may be just a little bit nuts.  They're used to working alone, in
deep space for long periods, with little or no contact with any other living
thing.  Sounds like an ideal data gatherer to me.

So, you see, Jeff, I agree with your vision, (especially given your
experience);  I simply assume the role you talk about to be subsumed within
the existing careers, and the Intelligence Agent career to cover the
analysis, and "hot recovery" (which I have no doubt are not near as frequent
or fun as the people behind the James Bond franchise would have us believe)
aspects of the intelligence game.  

BTW, I really dig the ship design.  Spruce up the labs, and sensors, crew it
with some scouts, and if they get caught they can say they were only here
investigating reports of odd gravitic anomalies in...

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:17:58 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence analysis

In a message dated 96-11-24 21:38:43 EST, Michael Barry wrote:

<Quite a bit that I have left out for purposes of length, not the least of
which I included in an earlier post.>

>      Comments? 
>  

Muy bien, in case I neglected to state that earlier.

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:33:33 GMT
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Copyright Violation

Hi there

I don't normally forward emails in their entirey, but the following
came to me, and I'd thought I'd ask for comments from the list, so
I've sent it all.  to put it in context, I think he is refering to my
web pages at http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~spe/Hobbies.html.  My questions are:

1) Has anyone else had anything from this guy?

2) Is s/he for real?

3) Does copyright on things in the US effect its use by me in the UK?

4) How does this effect GDW/IG's use of the term Psionic Institute?

5) Anyone any idea if using a copyrighted word in a fictional setting
can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when that use has
been made since 1979 (by GDW)?

Thanks

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

- ----Forwarded Message Starts----

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:09:44 -0800
From: A Friend <friend@earthlink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: spe@astro.keele.ac.uk
Subject: Copyright Violation
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stewart:

You appear to be an educated and ethical individual. Therefore, I am
writing you directly, rather than through some impersonal legal counsel,
to put you on notice that you rather innocent use of the term "Psionics"
is a violation of a Copyright held by myself. Psionics has blossomed out
and is being used by a handful of people on the net. You are only one of
those. However, you seem to be one of the more intelligent. 

The terms "Psion" and "Psionics" were coined by my Mentor, Henry D.
Frazier and my self early in the 1950's. We defined "Psion: as: "The
smallest possible unit of life and sentience. Ie: the Life counterpart
of the material world "electron." The term Psionics, we defined as: "The
study, understanding and control of Psions and Psionics activity in
living systems. We incorporated the term "Psionics" in the name "General
Psionics" in 1959 and formed the Church of General Psionics and
(ironically, given the name of your Web et al) The Instute of General
Psionics (Incorporated in June of 1970). These terms were not only
Copyrighted by us, they were U.S. Trade and Service Marke by Mentor and
myself. While, in the late Seventies, following my Mentor's passing, I
changed the name of "The Church of General Psionics" to "The Friend's
Way of Self-Realization..." The name of the Institute has remained
unchanged.

I do not know how invested you are in your use of our term and our name,
but I must ask you to cease and desist from using that which was created
by and rightfully belongs to us and represents a REAL-LIVE Institute of
Psionics.

Yours Truly

A. Friend

- ----Forwarded Message Ends----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:16:33 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: For Michael Barry

Bustard Two, this is Bustard One awaiting confirmation of new e-mail
address. Will suspend ops until received. Hope this will avoid enemy ECM
which is interfering with comms.

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:34:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T96#686] House Rules and Ranks

In mail you write:

> For those of you who didn't know:  The zampolit's function was to ensure 
> that the ship commander's decisions were 'politically correct.'  The 
> parallel command structure was developed to insure that military units 
> always acted in the best interests of the Communist Party of the Soviet 
> Union.  With all of the different, wacky political and military entities 
> possible in the Traveller universe, such a parallel command structure 
> could be present in a different form with different names.  I'd like to 
> think, however, were I a captain under such circumstances, that I'd be able 
> to find safe, deniable methods for wearing out my political officers quickly.

The problem is that the mere pattern of disappearing zampolits is
*more* than sufficient ground to send you to the gulag. You aren't
*nearly* paranoid enough to survive in such a society.



>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
> Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
> "What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
>  it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:05:24 GMT
From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

Craig Berry writes:
> There is absolutely no good reason for a CG-equipped ship to re-enter at
> high speed -- outside of combat situations, that is.  If you really want
> to baby your ship, you can match rotational speeds with the planet, just
> above the atmosphere, hovering on CG and a tickle of thrust. 

Wrong end of the scale.  The upper reaches of the atmosphere are
virtually stationary relative to the Earth as a whole.  It's only once
you get down to near the surface the air picks up enough speed to
nearly match the Earth's rotation.  Of course inbetween there are
various regions that travel faster still and have wildly varying
temperatures.

The atmosphere is not just one homogeneous unit which rotates with the
surface, and can be entered just by matching speeds, it's a chaotic
system with many (often unpredictable) changes at many levels.

You are not going to land any ship not designed to be streamlined, or
at the very least to take the shear stresses introduced by entering an
atmosphere.

			Chris.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:49:57 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

> 
> Well, OK.  There aren't many modern day (or Imperial British Navy)
parallels
> to Known Space in terms of scope, so this, IMHO, becomes a matter of
opinion.
>  So, without further ado, IMHO, I don't think so.  Maybe a Commander
(even a
> Lt. Cmdr.) would be given command of a small or less strategically
important
> system, but, fleets would probably be given to nothing less than a
Commodore
> (or Rear Admiral Lower Half, as the esteemed Jeff Zeitlin informs us.)

Fleet command is almost be definition a flag officer's job.

> This
> would tend to make the Navy a little bloated in it's higher ranks, but,
> promotions don't come all that often, don't you know (only once per
term.)

The frequency of military or naval promotions in Trav is proportional to
the amount of "business" (action, combat, etc) a force sees. If the Navy is
busy, than there will be lots of opportunities for promotion or command --
especially in the case that Someone Screws Up and Mister JO inherits the
Job :)

>  Further, I imagine a subsector being (very) roughly equivalent to a
theater
> of operations in WWII, and, so far as I know, nothing less than an
Admiral
> (in any variety of flavors) was given charge of a theater.

Depends upon the size of your war. In the 5FW, perhaps this is the case (a
subsector = a theater), but not for the Rebellion/Final War/Second Solomani
Rim War/That Thing Virus Ended ca. 1130. 


> Also, I'm not
> sure that a Marine or Army General might not have command of military
> operations in some subsectors, at least in times of war.  After all,
Stormin'
> Norman was (IIRC) the Supreme Allied Commander for Desert Shield/Storm,
> responsible for the total action of all allied forces (Army, Navy, Air
Force
> & Marines from a smattering of nations.) 

My take on Trav's services is that the Navy is the "senior service." Since
most interstellar military operations have _by definition_ a naval element,
there would be a tradition of the Navy taking the lead in most ops. Also,
consider that the Navy's upper echelons are usually drawn from the
nobility, whereas the Imperial Army will take damned near anyone and the
Marines care more about how many push-ups a character can do than his SOC.


> Perhaps, occasionally, a Major
> General+ is given command of total operations in a given subsector,
directing
> Task Forces and Fleets (commanded by a Commodore or Rear Admiral) to
provide
> Naval support for ongoing operations.  If all three major forces (Navy,
> Marine, and Army) are responsible for providing the top brass in any
> particular theater (or subsector, or sector, for that matter) it would
keep
> any one service from carrying too much weight at the top.  Finally, I
would
> think, in a fuedal society, having many top officers would be an
advantage
> for nobles, as it would prevent any one Admiral from establishing a
> significant enough power base to contest the rule of his local Marquis,
Duke
> or Archduke.  Whaddya think?

Not to mention a place to deposit all those surplus children of the
nobility and a place where they may earn honors and even a patent of
nobility outside the family's holdings all in a socially-constructive
effort that holds the further benefit of being brutally Darwinian --
military failures in a dangerous universe usually die whilst failing.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #693
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Traveller-digest      Monday, November 25 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 694



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Sunday Follies Update
My take on "Psionics"(c?)
IC Starship-TNE version
Trav Library Data
zero point energy fluctuations?
GENEERED BIG CATS, BOING-THUD, TLWH (Allen!), etc.
RE: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Re: Trade Commodities
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: Down In Flames (Kzinti)
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
RE: Copyright Violation
Re: Copyright Violation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 03:33:24 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Sunday Follies Update

Sunday Follies T4 Game update:

1. I Psi: The PCs decided to escort Baroness Lita and Gamester (the
Engineer) on their trek across Stellis to the Solstice Gather, where they
hope to locate the medicinal herbs they need  to cure their jumpspace
intolerance syndrome. Lita does some research and discovers a theroetical
connection between jumpspace intolerance and psionics(!). With this, she
starts searching Stellis' cities for psionic assistance. Lita has also been
"hearing voices" and picking up on stray random thoughts and emotions since
her bout with the JSI retrovirus, and she suspects that she may well
possess psi powers . . . and senses that unless she can get control of her
psi talents, she may become a psionic human time bomb.

With a little help, Lita finds someone who can help -- a NewAge
crystal-cruncher with a minimum of psi power but a lot of control developed
as a result of her mental and spiritual disciplines (low PSI, high skill).
Further, the psi's abilities are limited by her own belief in what is
possible. This makes psi abilities fairly common (in traditional Trav
terms) on Stellis, but the strictures of the Stellan religious tradition
prevent psi from dominating the society.

A cursory psionic exam  gives Lita a Psi of 5 (max for her age!) with
talent in Telepathy.

2. Hiking to Gather: The PCs gather their good weapons and supplies for the
trek. There are a LOT of dangerous animals in the Stellan backcountry, and
weapons are a Real Good Idea. Further, there are ugly rumors of banditry
and worse coming out of the boonies. The PCs buy some nags and pack mules
and head out. Why horses and not an air/raft?? Rumor also has it that the
locals react unpredictably to offworld transport, and that offworlders on
horses don't upset them.

The frst two days of the trek go well. The PCs are invited to camp that
night with a local couple making the same trek; and the PCs pick up some
more valuable information about the herbs as well as the Gather. The
characters take to hunting for the pot (as the game is very plentiful), and
whilst hunting encounter a party bent on hunting _H. Sapiens_ -- slavers.

The travellers, being the sort that hates slavers, decided as one to hunt
the hunters. The slavers went from healthy to dead in record time, and an
assessment of the evidence suggested that the slavers came from an area to
the northeast. At this point most of the trigger-pullers split off to hunt
down the slaver camp whilst Lita and Co continued on to the Gather. 

The strike team heads northeast and avoids getting lost (lousy maps, but
good Navigation rolls!). However, the point man of the team critically
blows two of three rolls to spot a slaver ambush and pays for his
misfortune with his life. The team fights back and breaks the hasty ambush
with only a couple of minor wounds. 

It was at this point that play halted -- some of us had to go to work :(

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:33:26 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: My take on "Psionics"(c?)

I think the mail can be justly ignored, since the terms Psi and 
Psionics have been used so extensively in SciFi and games by today, 
that even if there ever was such a copyright, it must have been 
cancelled by uncontrooled use by now (see the Xerox case)! 
Additionally the SCiFi term of Psionics seems to have nothing to do 
with his terminology, so that we are speaking of two entirely 
different topics which happen to use the same term for themselves. 

I would absolutely ignore the man's post and continue to use the 
Psionic institute on your site and in our game.

If he only now becomes concerned with saving his copyright, he is 
probably to late, by a couple of decades at that!

V.A.G.       
- ------ Volker A. Greimann............Grei5001@uni-trier.de ----
- ------ Gamer, Student of Law, Secret Master, Bane of DOS ---- 

- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!"

FNORD!

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 96 06:35:37 -0500
From: "Jeff Kazmierski" <odysseus@novia.net>
Subject: IC Starship-TNE version

And now, by request, the TNE version of the Intelligence Collection
platform.

- ---------------------------------------------------------
Confederate SX-2250 Intelligence Collection Platform

General Data:
	Displacement:  300 tons		Hull Armor:  20
	Length:  20 meters			Volume:  4200 kl
	Price:  MCr224				Target Size:  S
	Configuration:  Sphere SL		Tech Level:  11
	Mass (Loaded/Empty):  3540.64/3294.06

Engineering Data:
	Power Plant:  600 MW Fusion Power Plant (60 MW/hit), 1 year duration 
		(5.1625 MW excess power)
	Jump Performance:  2 (630kl fuel)
	G-Rating:  2G (150 MW/G HEPLAR), ContraGrav Lifters (60 MW)
	G-Turns:  40 (18.75 kl each, 750 kl maneuver fuel), 73.6 using Jump fuel
	Maint:  155

Electronics:
	Computer:  5xTL-11 Mod Fb Computers (0.7 MW each)
	Commo:  1000AU Radio (20 MW), 1000AU Laser (0.3 MW), 2x1000AU
	 	Masers (0.6 MW each)
	Avionics:  TL-10+ Avionics
	Sensors:  Passive EMS 120,000km fixed array (4 hexes; 0.2 MW)
		Active EMS 300,000km (10 hexes, 60 MW), EMM (4.2 MW)
	Controls:  Bridge w/9 Workstations

Armament:
	1xTL-11 150Mj Laser Barbette (Loc: 10; Arc: All)

Accommodations:
	Life Support:  Extended (0.84 MW), Grav Comp (2G, 21 MW)
	Crew:  29 (4 command, 3 electronics, 2 maneuver, 1 gunnery, 1 maintenance,
		1 steward, 1 medical, 10 intel analysts
	Crew Quarters:  31 small staterooms (0.0005 MW each)
	Cargo:  143.68 kl
	Fuel:  1470 kl (630kl jump fuel), Scoops, FP Plant (140kl/hr; 5.88 MW)
	Airlocks:  3

Notes:  The SX-2250 was the first of a series of starships designed by the
Terran Confederation for the purpose of collecting electronic and
communications intelligence from Vilani systems.  Other starships in the
SX-2250 series included the SX-2250-E, which replaced the 120,000km fixed
EMS sensor with a 180,000km folding array (at a significant cost to crew
comfort) and included a neutrino sensor; and the SX-2250-J, which added an
EMS jamming array.  The SX-2250 series saw duty throughout the Nth
Inter-stellar Wars and the Rule of Man.
- ---------------------------------------------------------
                +
                |\        "Anybody got a Q-tip?"  
                | )      /       
                | )       _      
       _        | )      /@
        \ ______|/______/	    Jeff Kazmierski
_________\ @@@@@@@@@@@@/__________odysseus@novia.net

Life begins at '030, fun starts at '040, impotence starts at '86.
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:56:11 +1100 (EST)
From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Trav Library Data

Dear Folks -

My Library Data page is now up to the letter "o". I've added some stars to
try and look impressive; however, trying to look impressive can also
translate to "unreadable". Could a few of you have a look and say if it is
OK or not? After all, one possibility is just to have a flat coloured
background and a few more pics.

Anyway, to try and reduce the noise in the list, could you reply direct to
me? Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:19:59 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: zero point energy fluctuations?

Eric Wrote:

> The gist of it is that gravity is generated when particles are
> subjected to zero-point fluctuations.

Pardon my complete ignorance on the topic, I must have fell asleep
during that lecture.
What are zero-point fluctuations?
Are they fluctuations from +ve to -ve with zero as a baseline?
  



> I have taken it one step further to say that if you can create
> the right EM field around a vehicle (or any object) that is within
> a gravity well, you can nullify the force of gravity on that
> vehicle.

That's how I picture anti-grav, as a gravity nullifier. This would 
mean that you would require some other thrust agent. I've always liked
that idea.

" Captain, we've got null-G, but the fusion drive's packed it in, what
now?"

"Just throw a rock out the rear airlock, that should get us moving."

> For what its worth.

It's worth a lot.
Thank's


Harry the signatureless (still).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:19:14 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: GENEERED BIG CATS, BOING-THUD, TLWH (Allen!), etc.

Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> said (re uplifting)
>  As mentioned elsewhere, big cats (cougar, leopard, tiger) are good
>subjects.

Geneered big cat-like creatures for military recon, etc. were in one of the
DGP MegaTraveller Journals (#2 I think). These are mentioned briefly in the
Geneering article I wrote for the Traveller Chronicle some issues back.

STAPLES FOR TLWH

Allen (via 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)) said:
>I've found the first (and so far only) complaint about The Long Way Home-the
>staples aren't big enough!

That and the problem we had with keeping large enough margins for the side
cropping, i.e. some books have almost no margin. Needless to say at CORE we
respond to every customer comment. An emergency supply pack of 2 extra
strong staples and spare strips of paper to stick down the side of each page
are in the post to you even as I type this... ok, enough joking - TLWH was
my first enterprise in print and, needless to say, not perfect. There are a
couple of typos and a slightly misprinted map, which I saw the day I picked
up the first bound copy... comments like "Oh sh*t, how did I miss that?!"
were heard... which is why I can still, to some degree, sympathise with
IG/AP and the original T4 book errata. However, I would still appreciate
anyone who has TLWH to feedback any comments on the book, critical or
otherwise, so that future products can be improved.

And Allen, please e-mail me at A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk about those queries
you have re running it.

HOW MUCH WOULD YOU PAY YOUR PILOT?

Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com> commented on More Broken Economics:

>Now let us look at the starship pilot.... the pilot makes
>almost 8 times the amount required to maintain a high level diet and
>living quarters and almost twice the annual salary of our citizen living
>at high level.
>Is this in line with what you would expect a pilot to make?

Judging by today's pilots, not quite. If you are asking more generally
should someone who can crash a million credit starship with passengers and
cargo be paid a fair whack, then I'd say yes. I'd be much more liable to
question the pay given to the less productive money-recycling and legal
careers found in abundance both today and (undoubtedly) in the future.

BOING-THUD

Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au said:
>PPPS My house rule also determines that Roos aboard starships must 
>wear helmets at all times, or suffer -1 int from brain damage for each 
>week aboard...<boing-THUD!> <boing-THUD!> <boing-THUD!> ...

ROTFLMAO :-)

COPYRIGHT ON THE USE OF THE NAME PSIONICS

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk> has told us of the mysterious Mr. A.
Friend who told him:

>You appear to be an educated and ethical individual. Therefore, I am
>writing you directly, rather than through some impersonal legal counsel,
>to put you on notice that you rather innocent use of the term "Psionics"
>is a violation of a Copyright held by myself. Psionics has blossomed out
>and is being used by a handful of people on the net. You are only one of
>those. However, you seem to be one of the more intelligent. 

What a load of generic twaddle. Psi, psionics, etc. has been used for 20
years in Traveller without so much as a passing gnat taking interest in it.
The e-mail address and general attitude of this person clearly indicate that
they are talking b*ll*cks and are a complete and utter bustard (an
endangered Australian hunting bird according to Michael Barry).

I'm no lawyer (and I know there are TML members who are), but could I humbly
suggest that it is best not to ignore such trite, but to state clearly that
the term "psionics" and all associated _fictional_ references to it and
psionic institutions, has been used, unchallenged, for over 20 years within
the Traveller RPG, which has had a distribution of tens of thousands of
people across the world. There is thus no way in which this term could be
regarded as a trademark or "copyright" (as he claims) any more than Hoover
corp take people to court for using the word hoover to mean vacuum cleaner.

Now, if your specific use of the word psionics somehow interferes with
people doing web searches for this guy's site, you could, out of the
kindness of your heart, try to rectify that?

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:46:13 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Deck Plans : Orientation

Using the maneuvering jets to keep nose up and tail down is fine until 
you stop to think about what they were designed for...Space.  no 
gravity, no friction.  They don't have to be that powerful to turn the 
ship.  Now bring them into the atmosphere and would they have enuff 
power to overcome winds and turbulance?

- ----------
From: 	bolie@io.com[SMTP:bolie@io.com]
Sent: 	Saturday, November 23, 1996 4:02 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Deck Plans : Orientation

At 9:24 PM 11/22/96, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Consider that winds regularly rip apart *buildings*. What do you do
>when a 50 mph gust hits the nose, but not the tail? Or if you 
blunder
>into a 300 mph jetstream.

Well, most buildings that I've seen or heard of that get ripped apart
weren't in great shape to start with.  All the big (read: large sail
area) buildings in Houston regularly survive hurricanes.

>Airplanes are pretty strong too. And "microbursts" have been known 
to
>drop a plane several thousand feet in *seconds*. If that happens to
>you, and you are only 1500 feet up, you've just crashed.

If you're moving at 300 mph through the air and the wind changes or
the pressure changes, your lift will change quickly.  If you're
floating, then it won't.  For example, hot air balloons rarely go
jumping through the air...  A slow moving CG ship would maneuver
more like a dirigible than an airplane.

>Heck, I can't remember the number of times I've seem semis that ran
>into unexpected wind gusts with bad results. Your ship will have a 
lot
>more "sail" area. And being non-airframe, the "center of pressure" 
may
>be nowhere *near* the center of mass. In which case your ship is not
>stable at *any* speed.

Again, semis are moving.  Also, they don't often get tossed off the
road.  Maybe very rarely in high winds.

>Just as the center of mass is the point about which the ship tries 
to
>pivot when "off center" forces are applied, the center of pressure 
is
>the point where forces from "wind" center. If the CP is at or behind
>the CM *relative to the "wind"* your ship will tumble end over end 
or
>worse.

Most ships have maneuvering thrusters that could compensate for
any off-center orces.  No problem.  If the ship starts to rotate
clockwise, apply thrust counter-clockwise.  If the ship is moving
slowly, then it's not going to go dancing around the sky.

>> I agree that an
>> unstreamlined ship wouldn't be able to fly very fast or maneuver
>> very well at all, but it just seems silly to say that it can not
>> enter the atmosphere...
>
>It's possible to *enter* atmosphere. It's not *practical* to do so.
>Your ship is *inherently* unstable with respect to wind forces
>(including the *apparent* "wind" generated by your passage thru the
>air). As such navigation is next to impossible.
>
>I've had to deal with CP/CM problems in trying to design model 
rockets
>and the like. So I do know what I'm talking about.

I assume that these rockets are accelerating hard and moving very
fast?  If I were going to bring a big, lumbering, unstreamlined
ship into an atmosphere, I wouldn't accelerate hard or move very
fast.  I'd take my time drifting down and move very slowly...
I would, in fact, behave as little like a rocket as possible.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:03:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Trade Commodities

On 23 Nov 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >Yes, Rob, and Thank You.  Your works are the basis which I am using and
> >are probably enough for anyone who wishes to come up with more specific
> >information "on the fly"
> >
> >My mmission is to take it one level down;  So instead of a result of
> >"animal fibers" I get a result of "Acadian Rams wool, Spooled".
> 
> In fact, you are doing (I think) exactly what I intended!  That is, taking
> the results created by the table _as a starting point_ and detailing them. 
> Perfect!  This is what I do for all my trade goods.  (And, incidentally, all
> my animals as well.)  My players _never_ have a hold full of "animal fibers";
> instead, they have an assortment of "Gruntle Clippings, untreated".  (In the
> same way, they are never attacked by a "10 kg gatherer", but instead a prime
> specimen of the "Lesser Frumious Wombat" who has mistaken their satellite
> uplink for a receptive female.)

Yes Right!  Except...see below.

> 
> >Obviously, some product (like Zilan Eiswein; see The Traveller Adventure)
> >are specific to specific planets.  This may somehow be reflected.
> 
> In my game, most products (other than bulk commodities) are planet-specific. 
> Remember that _every planet_ is supposed to have its own trade table, and
> that every good is supposed to have a name (ie. not "bulk carbohydrate", but
> "breadroot" or "yeast-cake" or "pressed purple algae" or...)
> 

My problem is that I havent the resources (timewise) to come up with a
specific table for every planet after carefully examining the UPP and
deciding on the other planetary features.  I want a 'quick stop' to drop
off and pick up cargo at a few spots.  More detailed adventures await down
the line a bit.

Hence the cargo lists based strictly on the type of product as determined
with the trade code as the primary determinant.

Sometimes this will mean that different planets in different areas of the
Marches will have the same type of 'animal fibers' or other commodity,
since they rolled the same result.  This is OK as long as the main table
is big enough for this to be rare.  If it happens rarely it can be
described as a successful import.

Some more common items, like iron ore or bauxite, need no explanation when
there are duplicate results on different planets.  These kinds of things
should make up the bulk of the table.

So yeah, I am doing what your instructions specify, only I'm trying to do
it in "bulk" as it were.

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:07:18 GMT
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

Hi there

During WWII, I thought some bombers were flown by entirely
non-commisioned crew, ie. the pilot was an NCO, other crew were lesser
NCOs and Enlisted.  While this might not be suitable for the glorious
Imperial Navy, perhaps local defence units include NCOs in control of
spacecraft (with their COs on other spacecraft in the squadron)?  In
lie-low-and-lurk mode of system defence, the NCOs are as autonomous as
the commissioned Officers.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:12:36 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Down In Flames (Kzinti)

Craig Berry:
> "Down in Flames" was written by Niven (with the collaboration of some 
> of his friends) as a sort of joke, or alternate-history exercise, 
> or whatever you want to call it.  

Rob Prior said:
> It was an exercise Niven did, partly at the instigation of Harlan 
> Ellison (I think) as a way of ending Known Space (he was tired of 
> writing in it). 

Actually, it was Norman Spinrad.  The complete text is available at
http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/Links/world-design/down.in.flames.html 

Note that there are at least two versions of this essay:  the original 
(published first in a fanzine about two decades ago, AFAIK) and a modified 
version published in one of the recent Niven collections (_N-Space_, I 
believe).  The version at the web page above appears to be the original.

Note that DiF predates _Ringworld_; some of the details of Known Space have 
evolved in a way inconsistant with DiF.  After Ringworld, Niven decided he was 
not tired of Known Space after all.


Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:19:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.961122115846.23123A-100000@cummings.uchicago.edu>
> 
> << > "Mr. Roberts" with Henry Fonda.  (Great movie.)  I'm curious what sort of
> > ships a lower ranking character would be given to command.  I know that it 
> is
> > unlikely for a full Lieutenant or Lt. Commander to get a command, but it
> > isn't impossible.  In fact, I think they would commonly hold commands of
> > smaller vessels, e.g. destroyer escorts, merc cruisers, patrol cruisers, 
> etc.
> >  Feel free to use examples of ships from CT through TNE if you like;  I am
> > designing a small fleet of my own for this campaign, using CT "Fighting
> > Ships" and "Brilliant Lances as guidelines.  Also, any input on appropriate
> > ranks for "senior officers"  (Chief Engineer, Gunner, XO, etc.) would be
> > greatly appreciated.  If this thread is inappropriate for the list please
> > e-mail me privately with information or resources on where I can find this
> > type of data.  
> > 
> 
> I'll take a shot, with the likelihood of correction by those on this list
> who have been military personnel in the various navies and other services
> rep[resented here. >>
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Excellent post! Very useful. One comment, though: Given the large size of the 
> Imperium, I get the feeling that - unless the Navy is very top-heavy - in many 
> cases you'll see lower ranks given more responsibility. You may see a Cmdr in 
> charge of an entire system, or a Captain in charge of a subsector fleet, 
> because there's a huge amount of space and only a finite number of officers to 
> go round.
> 

Good point!  If the system or area is a true backwater there may only be
enough ships to justify a Captain.  I would guess, though, that the
lightest weight you'd see is a Captain for any area to speak of.  Remember
that Imperial area commanders may need to face down minor nobles with a
complex on occassion.  If that commander is a pipsqueak Commander or Lt.
Commander, no one will listen to him.  

Not that being posted to a backwater is exactly a prime posting.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:11:14 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Copyright Violation

Don't know the specifics of the copyright, but if its under trade and 
service, they probably would effect overseas.  The questions are:
1) Did they copyright the word Psionic & Psion or General Psionic 
Church
2) When did they copyright

Several game systems have been using the term Psion & Psionic for 
years & have not been contested.
My understanding of how copyrights work is if somelse uses your 
copyrighted blank, you can force them to stop by law.  But if they 
don't contest and several people start using it, then they have lost 
the right. e.g. Fimica is example of this.  Everyone started calling 
lamenants Fimica because they were first big producer.  I might call 
copyright offices and ask.

- ----------
From: 	Stewart Eyres[SMTP:spe@astro.keele.ac.uk]
Sent: 	Monday, November 25, 1996 4:33 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: 	Stewart Eyres
Subject: 	Copyright Violation

Hi there

I don't normally forward emails in their entirey, but the following
came to me, and I'd thought I'd ask for comments from the list, so
I've sent it all.  to put it in context, I think he is refering to my
web pages at http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~spe/Hobbies.html.  My questions 
are:

1) Has anyone else had anything from this guy?

2) Is s/he for real?

3) Does copyright on things in the US effect its use by me in the UK?

4) How does this effect GDW/IG's use of the term Psionic Institute?

5) Anyone any idea if using a copyrighted word in a fictional setting
can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when that use 
has
been made since 1979 (by GDW)?

Thanks

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

- ----Forwarded Message Starts----

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:09:44 -0800
From: A Friend <friend@earthlink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: spe@astro.keele.ac.uk
Subject: Copyright Violation
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stewart:

You appear to be an educated and ethical individual. Therefore, I am
writing you directly, rather than through some impersonal legal 
counsel,
to put you on notice that you rather innocent use of the term 
"Psionics"
is a violation of a Copyright held by myself. Psionics has blossomed 
out
and is being used by a handful of people on the net. You are only one 
of
those. However, you seem to be one of the more intelligent.

The terms "Psion" and "Psionics" were coined by my Mentor, Henry D.
Frazier and my self early in the 1950's. We defined "Psion: as: "The
smallest possible unit of life and sentience. Ie: the Life 
counterpart
of the material world "electron." The term Psionics, we defined as: 
"The
study, understanding and control of Psions and Psionics activity in
living systems. We incorporated the term "Psionics" in the name 
"General
Psionics" in 1959 and formed the Church of General Psionics and
(ironically, given the name of your Web et al) The Instute of General
Psionics (Incorporated in June of 1970). These terms were not only
Copyrighted by us, they were U.S. Trade and Service Marke by Mentor 
and
myself. While, in the late Seventies, following my Mentor's passing, 
I
changed the name of "The Church of General Psionics" to "The Friend's
Way of Self-Realization..." The name of the Institute has remained
unchanged.

I do not know how invested you are in your use of our term and our 
name,
but I must ask you to cease and desist from using that which was 
created
by and rightfully belongs to us and represents a REAL-LIVE Institute 
of
Psionics.

Yours Truly

A. Friend

- ----Forwarded Message Ends----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:57:51 -0500 (EST)
From: matth@homer.njit.edu (Matthew Harelick)
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

I would not believe any person that does not sign his own name. 


> 
> Hi there
> 
> I don't normally forward emails in their entirey, but the following
> came to me, and I'd thought I'd ask for comments from the list, so
> I've sent it all.  to put it in context, I think he is refering to my
> web pages at http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~spe/Hobbies.html.  My questions are:
> 
> 1) Has anyone else had anything from this guy?
> 
> 2) Is s/he for real?
> 
> 3) Does copyright on things in the US effect its use by me in the UK?
> 
> 4) How does this effect GDW/IG's use of the term Psionic Institute?
> 
> 5) Anyone any idea if using a copyrighted word in a fictional setting
> can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when that use has
> been made since 1979 (by GDW)?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
> 
> ----Forwarded Message Starts----
> 
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:09:44 -0800
> From: A Friend <friend@earthlink.net>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> To: spe@astro.keele.ac.uk
> Subject: Copyright Violation
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> Stewart:
> 
> You appear to be an educated and ethical individual. Therefore, I am
> writing you directly, rather than through some impersonal legal counsel,
> to put you on notice that you rather innocent use of the term "Psionics"
> is a violation of a Copyright held by myself. Psionics has blossomed out
> and is being used by a handful of people on the net. You are only one of
> those. However, you seem to be one of the more intelligent. 
> 
> The terms "Psion" and "Psionics" were coined by my Mentor, Henry D.
> Frazier and my self early in the 1950's. We defined "Psion: as: "The
> smallest possible unit of life and sentience. Ie: the Life counterpart
> of the material world "electron." The term Psionics, we defined as: "The
> study, understanding and control of Psions and Psionics activity in
> living systems. We incorporated the term "Psionics" in the name "General
> Psionics" in 1959 and formed the Church of General Psionics and
> (ironically, given the name of your Web et al) The Instute of General
> Psionics (Incorporated in June of 1970). These terms were not only
> Copyrighted by us, they were U.S. Trade and Service Marke by Mentor and
> myself. While, in the late Seventies, following my Mentor's passing, I
> changed the name of "The Church of General Psionics" to "The Friend's
> Way of Self-Realization..." The name of the Institute has remained
> unchanged.
> 
> I do not know how invested you are in your use of our term and our name,
> but I must ask you to cease and desist from using that which was created
> by and rightfully belongs to us and represents a REAL-LIVE Institute of
> Psionics.
> 
> Yours Truly
> 
> A. Friend
> 
> ----Forwarded Message Ends----
> 


- -- 
Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu

------------------------------

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Sender: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com


Traveller-digest      Monday, November 25 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 695



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Solomani Generred Critters 
More: Copyright Violation
Re: Re: Re: Trade Commodities
Re: Copyright Violation
Re: "Jewish " system engineer
RE: Deck Plans : Orientation
Re: Copyright Violation
Psi copyright comments
Uplifted Dogs
Zampolit go splash!
Psionic Trolling
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: Stuff & K'kree recipes
More Zampolits
Re: IRC chat suggestions
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: Copyright Violation
Re: Copyright Violation
MT2: Quest for the Ancients

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:20:39 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: Solomani Generred Critters 

 "Birds don't possess complex enough brains to really make an uplift
  realistic."

So I would have said before I saw the articles on an African grey parrot
(weighs about a pound, has a brain the sixe of your thumb, max), named,
I think, Alex.

Alex can imitate human speech, like lots of parrots, but he has also been 
trained to, well, converse on a limited range of subjects.  It goes like 
this:  They show him a trayful of items (and perhaps allow him to examine
them further by picking them up or nibbling them).  They can then ask 
him questions about the items like:

	How many are blue?
	How many are round?
	How many are metal?
	How what color are the square ones?
	What shape are the metal ones?
	Pick out the round, blue one.

Etc.

My feeling is that Alex is AT LEAST as bright as a very bright dog.  
I feel that a gene-tooled parrot of, say, the size of a bald eagle 
could loft a brain that might well leave the humane laws behind for 
civil rights.

"But the brain is so small!"  Well, yes, but look what Alex can do with 
his tiny brain.  Maybe, in all the tens of millions of years of separate 
evolution, off parallel to mammals, birds have developed a more compact 
neural architecture than us.  After all, mammals have seldom had the same
selection pressure to squeeze a lot of function into a little mass that 
birds have generally had.

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 96 15:31:28 EST
From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Subject: More: Copyright Violation

Yo Folks,

Seldom do I forward emails in their entirey, but the following
arrived in my jmail, and I'd thought I'd sent it to the list, so
I've sent the whole lot.  to put it in context, I think this bloke is
refering to my web pages at http://www.maths.tcd.ie/pub/travaid. 
My questions are:

1) How many others have had anything from this guy?

2) Is s/he for real?

3) Does copyright on things in the US effect its use by me in Ireland?

4) How does this effect GDW/IG's use of the term Traveller's Aid Society?

5) Anyone any idea why someone might think using a copyrighted word in
a fictional setting can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when
that use has been made since 1979 (by GDW)?

Thanks

Jo Grant <jo_grant@crd.lotus.com>

- - ----Forwarded Message Starts----

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:09:44 -0800
From: A Fiend <fiend@earthlink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: jo_grant@crd.lotus.com
Subject: Copyright Violation
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jo:

You appear to be an educated and ethical individual. Therefore, I am
writing you directly, rather than through some impersonal legal 
counsel, to put you on notice that you rather innocent use of the term 
"Traveller" is a violation of a Copyright held by myself. Travelling has
blossomed out and is being used by many people on the net. You
are only one of those. However, you seem to be one of the more intelligent.

The terms "Traveller" and "Traveller's Aid" were coined by The Traveller's
Aid Society early in the 1950's. We defined "Traveller" as: "Someone who
goes from place to place. Ie: the opposite of stationary." The term Traveller's
Aid, we defined as: "Rendering service to people going from place to place."
We incorporated the term "Traveller" in the name "Traveller's Aid" in 1959
and (ironically, given the name of your Web et al) formed The Traveller's Aid
Society (Incorporated in June of 1970). These terms were not only Copyrighted
by us, they were U.S. Trade and Service Marke by myself. While, in the late

I do not know how invested you are in your use of our term and our name,
but I must ask you to cease and desist from using that which was created
by and rightfully belongs to us and represents a REAL-LIVE Institute of
Traveller's Aid.

Yours Truly

A. Friend

- - ----Forwarded Message Ends----

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1996 15:34:26 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Trade Commodities

Just a reminder that some of us TML user pay-per-byte and have slow modems. 
You don't need to quote an entire message - just the bits you're replying
directly to.

>My problem is that I havent the resources (timewise) to come up with a
>specific table for every planet after carefully examining the UPP and
>deciding on the other planetary features.

Well, if you're using a computer this is not more tiresome than creating
animal encounter tables - at least until you have to name all the products
:-)  Metator, for example, generates trade tables automatically, just as it
generates animal encounter tables.

What you could do is create 'generic' tables for each type of world, rather
like the CT supplement 2 did for animal encounter tables.  I would suggest
splitting these into low-mid-high tech, Ag, In, Na, Ni, 'other' trade codes
for a start.  This gives you fifteen tables to create - hardly onerous if you
plan on using them for all of your campaign.

I suggest that you have a spot in these generic tables for 'planetary
speciality' - something that is _only_ found on that world.  If you can't
come up with something on the fly you can always reroll, while if you can it
will lend a sense of depth to your campaign.

That said, I do have software that will create the 'bare-bones' goods very
quickly.  (Rather like churningout thousands of animals.)  I can always
create tables for you if you want them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:07:14 -0500
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

Stewart Eyres wrote:
> 
> 2) Is s/he for real?
>
#include <scatology_detect.h>
/* Scatology Detect Mode Enabled */
 
> ----Forwarded Message Starts----
> 
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:09:44 -0800
> From: A Friend <friend@earthlink.net>
Hmmm..... smells like an unauthenticated EMAIL address to me...

> 
> Stewart:
> 
> You appear to be an educated and ethical individual. Therefore, I am
> writing you directly, rather than through some impersonal legal counsel,
> to put you on notice that you rather innocent use of the term "Psionics"
> is a violation of a Copyright held by myself. Psionics has blossomed out
> and is being used by a handful of people on the net. You are only one of
> those. However, you seem to be one of the more intelligent.
        [ drizzle snipped ] 

Gee.... let's try flattery... 
> A. Friend
> 
> ----Forwarded Message Ends----
Who is this?   Alice Friend?  Andrew Friend??  Sounds like more
scatology to me...

** Run Aborted...  too many scatology violations to continue **

Sounds like BS to me! 

- -- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email)    peterb@superlink.net (play Email)%%
%% "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"  %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:10:00 -0700
From: Jon Goff <jongoff@et.byu.edu>
Subject: Re: "Jewish " system engineer

Mused wrote:
> 
> Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> > > > Artificial Gravity check out the book "Tapping the Zero-Point Energy" by
> > > > Moray B King.  He is a jewish slystems engineer.  He has some very good
> 
> I'm more curious what a slystem is,  what it does and hwow a jewish one differs from a
> gentile one.
> >
> > What're jewish systems?
> 
> They are the ones with the yamulka!

GUYS IAM GETTING SICK AND TIRED OF GETTING THE ABOVE LINE.  A systems
engineer is one who acts as a go-between for mechanical, electrical,
manufacturing, and chemical engineers.

The fact that he is jewish did have nothing to do with it.  I had about
30 seconds to type the post, so in the rush I added some extraneous
detail.  Will people pull their heads out of their arses and look at the
REAL detail instead of straining at proverbial GNATS?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:34:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: RE: Deck Plans : Orientation

Well, that may be true for an ungainly merchant ship or a survey ship
or something, but any ship designed for combat is going to have oversized
maneuvering jets for making quick rotations to bring weaposn to bear
and make quick course changes.

Also, many ships are armored wherease most buildings and modern aircraft
are not.  I'm assuming that this armor is relatively complete.  An open-
hull, unarmored, civilian craft would have a lot more problems in an
atmosphere than a more compact, armored war ship.  I'm not trying to
argue that any ship will have no problems in an atmosphere, just that
lack of streamlining is not enough to prevent a ship from functioning
in atmosphere.

Bolie IV

On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Clint Fishback wrote:
> Using the maneuvering jets to keep nose up and tail down is fine until 
> you stop to think about what they were designed for...Space.  no 
> gravity, no friction.  They don't have to be that powerful to turn the 
> ship.  Now bring them into the atmosphere and would they have enuff 
> power to overcome winds and turbulance?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:13:32 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

At 09:33 AM 11/25/96 GMT, Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk> wrote:

>1) Has anyone else had anything from this guy?

Not in this context.

>2) Is s/he for real?

The "institute" is a legend among Forteans..  Stage magic mixed with
pseudo-science, all designed to remove money from the shill's wallet.
They've been very quiet for the last few years.  Perhaps this a last gasp
attempt to wring some money out of folks.

>3) Does copyright on things in the US effect its use by me in the UK?

I can't answer that, perhaps there is some sort of legal aid service you
could call?

>4) How does this effect GDW/IG's use of the term Psionic Institute?

Since the Psionics Institute has been a staple of Traveller since 1977, and
hasn't been challenged by these idiots yet, they have no case. Remember that
some of the nastiest battles in the RPG industry have been over copyrights.

>5) Anyone any idea if using a copyrighted word in a fictional setting
>can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when that use has
>been made since 1979 (by GDW)?

Well, if I have a character drink a Coke, the nice folks at Coca-Cola
probably won't object.  If I write a book claiming that Coca-Cola was the
downfall of western civilization, then I can expect a visit from lawyers
who've had their sense of humor surgically removed.

I would'nt sweat this.  If he writes back, just tell him to come to England
and file suit in your courts, since that is where the computer hosting the
page is located.



+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:25:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Keith Thoms <kthoms@nooster.nosc.mil>
Subject: Psi copyright comments

Besides the fact this guy sounds like a crackpot, copywrite terminologies
have to be pretty exact.  He copywrited "The Institute for General
Psionics", while GDW coined "Psionics Institue".  My advice is to politely
respond that it's only a fictional game, bow out, and change your web page
so as not to draw more scrutiny.

Since he mentioned finance, carefully word any replies to emphasize
only GDW, and that GDW is now out of business.  Amazing how lawsuit
interest can fizzle if there's no money to be gained!

- -----------
Keith Thoms                                 Is it a rule, that there is an 
wind@nooster.nosc.mil                             exception to every rule?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 11:38:40 -0500
From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Subject: Uplifted Dogs

MacDude wrote:

>lewis@chlewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote
>
>>I assumed that dogs were uplifted,
>
>They are called Vargr. Though somewhere in the
>past I also did dogs (based on a water spaniel/
>coyote mix I acquired as a child). Though I did
>retain a quadruped format..

The Ancients took Terran wolves and turned them into Vargr.  When the
Solomani started uplifting species they would look at man's best friend
and start playing.  If people are playing with Kangaroos, than I am
sure they have played around with dog DNA.  

These dogs wouldn't look at all like the Vargr. A TL-20+ society turned
wolves into an upright fully sentient species. The TL-14 Solomani's
uplifted dogs would be fairly stupid, (1d6 for intelligence??) and
probably wouldn't be fully upright, probably have the ability to walk
on hind legs, but better able to run on all fours.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What did Noah use to light up the Ark? 
A:Floodlights!        
       
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:46:50 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Zampolit go splash!

Leonard M. Erickson wrote:

>
>The problem is that the mere pattern of disappearing zampolits is
>*more* than sufficient ground to send you to the gulag. You aren't
>*nearly* paranoid enough to survive in such a society.
>
>
>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
>> Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!
>> "What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
>>  it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>- --
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


        Naw... what you do is you frame your least capable junior officers
for it..;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:51:15 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Psionic Trolling

        Guys, guys, guys...  Really.  Get a grip.  If you don't, I've got a
nice control-sized bloc of Microsoft bearer shares that I'd be willing to
let go for 20$: I've got some Xmas shopping to do.  Any takers please email
me.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:22:43 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

At 02:07 PM 11/25/96 GMT, Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk> wrote:

>During WWII, I thought some bombers were flown by entirely
>non-commisioned crew, ie. the pilot was an NCO, other crew were lesser
>NCOs and Enlisted.  While this might not be suitable for the glorious
>Imperial Navy, perhaps local defence units include NCOs in control of
>spacecraft (with their COs on other spacecraft in the squadron)?  In
>lie-low-and-lurk mode of system defence, the NCOs are as autonomous as
>the commissioned Officers.

Actually, during the Battle of Britain, many of the Spitfires and Hurricanes
were flown by RAF sergeants.  The German Luftwaffe also had many enlisted
pilots, mostly in transports and as instructors.

The US Marine Corps had trained a number of NCOs as pilots in Central
America and China during the '20s and '30s, but the Navy was shocked at the
thought of mere enlisted men (and Marines at that!) flying their precious
fighters.  During WWII, many of the flying sergeants were quietly given
commissions to provide replacements to the badly hurt VMFs in the Pacific.

If you think of a system defence boat sort of like a coast guard vessel, it
would make sense for it to be commanded by that Master Chief Petty Officer
with time of service marks up to his shoulder.
+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:22:48 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Stuff & K'kree recipes

At 05:14 PM 11/24/96 -0800, you wrote:
>> (Numerous cooking ideas later . . .)
>>
>>Well, it seems to me that they are best suited to a texas-style
>>barbecue. Whole K'kree carcasses turning on spits over huge beds of
>>glowing mesquite charcoal.... Huge slabs of ribs smothered in barbecue
>>sauce... mmm mmm
>>
>
>So, who's doing the recipe book?  And where do I get it?

well, this seems to be a natural for the Silly Era.....  recipes for K'Kree
(or any other race) can be sent to me, and I'll gladly post them to the pages.

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:23:00 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: More Zampolits

This whole discussion reminds me of the scene in Clancy's "Red Storm
Rising", where the Soviet General commanding Iceland is trying to deal with
the USMC landings; his zampolit begins ranting about how they will show the
Americans "how Soviet soldiers fight!"  The General says great, hands the
zampolit an AK, and sends him off to the thick of the action to lead by example.

While the Third Imperium probably won't have political officers, it might
have an equally annoying counter-part: low-rank/high SOC officers.  Imagine
having a Subsector Duke's son aboard your CL.. especially if he's a devious
little bastard..

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:42:24 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: IRC chat suggestions

>      About the Trav IRC chat...would you mind giving *proper times*? ie 
>      some format that we upside-downers can understand. Greenwich (London) 
>      time is the international standard. 
>      
>      "Thursday night is Traveller night" actually means something like 
>      "Sometime between 12N and 6PM on Friday afternoon you Aussies can log 
>      into an IRC chat...suckers!"
>      
>      An address for this fabulous IRC chat would be nice too! 


My apologies... I'm not quite used to thinking in global terms yet!  
I will post *all* the details I can think of from here on out.  Due 
to the Thanksgiving Holiday,  Traveller night will be on Wednesday 
next week.  I will send something out on Sunday or Monday that will ,
hopefully, be more informative for everyone :-)

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:48:08 -0500
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

At 11:40 AM 11/22/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm curious what sort of
>ships a lower ranking character would be given to command.  

I just spoke with a former Naval officer (US Navy).  You don't even have to
be an officer to be given command of a vessel.  Some high-ranking enlisted
types can command vessels -- like tugboats!  Oh, you were interested in
command of military vessels?  Gotta be an O5 or better.

Here's a list of USN ranks and some examples of vessels they may be in
charge of:

O1 Ensign - tugboat
O2/O3 Lt - minesweeper
04 Lt Cmdr - amphib
05 Cmdr - destroyers, subs
06 Capt - cruisers, a/c carriers

by the time you get to the Admirals, a two star (Rear Adm) commands a
battle group and a four star (Adm) commands an entire fleet.

So, extrapolate this to the Imperial Navy, and you could tell who commands
what!

 James Garriss                   "There is no reason anyone would
    
 Systems Engineer, MITRE          want a computer in their home."            
 jpg@langley.mitre.org                  Ken Olson, founder of DEC 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss                              1977

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:06:33 -0800
From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

Stewart Eyres wrote:
> 
> Hi there
> 
> I don't normally forward emails in their entirey, but the following
> came to me, and I'd thought I'd ask for comments from the list, so
> I've sent it all.  to put it in context, I think he is refering to my
> web pages at http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~spe/Hobbies.html  My questions are:
> 
> 1) Has anyone else had anything from this guy?

Nope.

> 2) Is s/he for real?

Sadly, it's quite possible.
 
> 3) Does copyright on things in the US effect its use by me in the UK?

Yes.  Both US and UK are signatories of the Berne Convention.
 
> 4) How does this effect GDW/IG's use of the term Psionic Institute?

Here we get to the meat of the issue.
	You cannot copyright a phrase.  Thus they do not have a valid
copyright claim against you.

You CAN trademark a phrase...  However the usage restrictions on 
trademarks are MUCH less.  Basically they would have to prove that
your usage of the term diluted their trademark usage.  Since you are
using a term in use within a fictional context that does not refer to 
their work, or their area of work, it would be difficult for them
to prove it.  In the US this never the less could be expensive for 
you (you have to cover your own lawyers fees in civil cases).
 
> 5) Anyone any idea if using a copyrighted word in a fictional setting
> can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when that use has
> been made since 1979 (by GDW)?
 
See my answer to number four.

NOTE:  I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.  I'm just concerned 
about these issues as a gamer (see T$R's attitude) and a filker.
There is an EXCELLENT FAQ covering these issues that appears in
the FAQ archive and occasionally on news.answers.  

Read the FAQ for better information.

Douglas

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:02:04 -0500 (EST)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk> says,
>Subject: Copyright Violation

>5) Anyone any idea if using a copyrighted word in a fictional setting
>can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when that use has
>been made since 1979 (by GDW)?

>- ----Forwarded Message Starts----
[snippage]
>The terms "Psion" and "Psionics" were coined by my Mentor, Henry D.
>Frazier and my self early in the 1950's. We defined "Psion: as: "The
>smallest possible unit of life and sentience. Ie: the Life counterpart
>of the material world "electron." The term Psionics, we defined as: "The
>study, understanding and control of Psions and Psionics activity in
>living systems. We incorporated the term "Psionics" in the name "General
>Psionics" in 1959 and formed the Church of General Psionics and
>(ironically, given the name of your Web et al) The Instute of General
>Psionics (Incorporated in June of 1970).

[etc]

This guy sounds like a total crank, a loon, or a prankster: note that he
signs himself by "A. Friend" - an obvious pseudonym. I doubt that he can
claim copyright without giving his real name. And I don't think he or his
"Mentor" can legally claim any exclusive right to the word "psionics", any
more than Isaac Asimov can force US Robotics to pay him for the use of his
term. It may well be that "A. Friend" and/or "Henry D. Frazier" actually
did invent the term, but if so they obviously failed to keep control of it
in the 1950s. It has long since passed into general usage.

Here's a quote from the entry on "PSI POWERS" in _The Encyclopedia of
Science Fiction_, by John Clute & Peter Nichols (St. Martin's Griffin,
1993): "John W. Campbell, Jr....also popularized in the mid-1950s the
related term "psionics", which he once defined as "psychic electronics";
one of the earliest uses was in Murray Leinster's "The Psionic Mousetrap"
(1955)."

Notice that Leinster's story and Campbell's articles pre-date by several
years "Friend & Frazier's" supposed incorporation of the term in "General
Psionics" in 1959. Of course, Campbell may well have picked it up from
Frazier and his Friend. But if they didn't even try to stop Campbell and
Leinster from using the term back then, they can't legally try to stop you,
me, TSR, GDW and a thousand SF writers from using it now.

Mind you, if this guy wants to come out of hiding behind his pseudonym and
actually sue you, he could still make your life hell. I doubt very much if
he could win, but if he has lots of money (or is a lawyer himself) he can
throw nuisance suits at you until you capitulate. Pointless litigation has
become America's favourite passtime.

But a legal threat by e-mail is just that: an empty threat, harmless
electrons, as useless as a threatening phone call. The courts demand paper.
Until you receive a registered letter from his lawyer, you can claim you
haven't heard a thing from him.

If he's serious (or seriously crazy), living in Old Blighty may or may not
shield you; somehow I doubt it.

Hope this helps,

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:23:35 -0500
From: COsborne@aol.com
Subject: MT2: Quest for the Ancients

I downloaded the following walkthrough from AOL (I haven't tried it yet, but
it seems simple enough.)


 	In order to complete the main quest of saving the planet Rhylanor, the
player 
must visit 11 Ancient sites to gather coyns and other artifacts.
 	The following is a list of planets that contain Ancient Sites and the items

that can be found in each. Note that some sites have structures that can 
be further entered. Also note that some planets require passes to land. 

PLANETS     PASS                                    		 	ITEMS
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fulacin     	Yes. Dev Lendrel in Rhylanor Startown.   	Coyn, batteries

Inthe       	No.                                      			Coyn

Knorbes     	No.                                      			Coyn, disintegrator

Gerome   	Yes. Salesman on Jae Tellona.               Coyn, Space ship ruin

457-973     	Yes. Merchant in Anlisha on Effate.      	Coyn, Statue, Stasis
ray

Lablon     	 No.                                      			Coyn

Victoria    	Yes. Glar Venni in Hefry Starport.       	Coyn

Patinir     	No.                                      			Coyn, Fuel cores

Zykoca      	Yes. Filip Sema in Yebab Startown.       	Coyn, Force dome

Zila        	No.                                      			Coyn, pocket disk

Regina      	No.                                      			Coyn, Locator plug
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	Regina is kind of special in the sense that you cannot enter it until you 
have another artifact obtainable _only_ when you solve the megacorporation 
conspiracy subplot.
	There are lots of clues, hints, tips and information about the
megacorporation 
conspiracy, the bulk of which are designed to confuse and act as red herring.

To pursue this subplot, first visit the planet Rugbird and pick up all the 
truth drugs you find there. During you travels, you would come across some 
Vemene thugs, some would shoot at you, and some you can interrogate. Quite a 
few of them on various planets will tell you that they come from the prison 
planet Huderu.
	Go to the planet Jae Tellona and buy passes for Huderu and Pscias. Visit 
Huderu and talk to the prison Warden Cruxlic. Interrogate and/or use the 
truth drug on him until he tells you about Grazer on the planet Pscias. Visit

Grazer on Psias. (You will have to fight a few battles to get to him, so 
save the game first when you first land on the planet.) Talk to him to get 
the name of the person who hired him to kill you.
	Next visit Tukera headquarters in Ragid Town on the planet Junidy. Talk to 
Jelika Chan. Interrogate and then use the truth drug on her. Learn about 
Lie Ioccocco on Loneseda. Visit Ioccocco on Loneseda. Talk to and interrogate

him to get the names and locations of the 4 Tukera subsector chiefs. The 
name of one of the chiefs should be very familiar to you. Why, that's the
same 
person that Grazer told you! Go to the planet that Ioccocco told you and 
track down this person. Once you find him, the conspiracy is solved and you 
will obtain the artifact needed to enter the Ancient site on Regina.
	You should also take a trip to the planet Lewis to gather the conspiracy 
evidence for the duke back on Rhylanor to tie up all the loose ends. Why 
Lewis? You'll know once you solve conspiracy!
	Once you have visited all 11 Ancient sites, you should have 36 coyns in your

possession. USE the coyns and you will be told where to go next. Just follow 
the simple instructions and you should be able to get to the game ending 
sequence very shortly.

	The Ancient space ship? Would you like to dump your whimpy little Jump 2 
Far Trader and fly around in a big and nasty Jump 4 starship that requires 
no fuel? Of course you would. And it is relatively easy to do: First visit 
the Ancient Site on Patinir to retrieve the fuel cores. Then go to the 
planet Ylaven _in your own ship_. Do not take a charter or a commercial 
liner. Why? Because the Ancient ship is _not_ on the planet Ylaven. It is 
near the Gas Giant! When you are in that planetary system, go to the gas 
giant to refuel. You will take over the Ancient ship in no time at all!
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #695
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Monday, November 25 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 696



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #694
Again and again and AGAIN!!
Re: More Zampolits
Re: Putting the Middies in Charge
Re: Copyright Violation
Re: Psionic Master of the World
RE: Psionic Master of the World
A. Friend
More Psionic trolling...
Re: A. Friend
For Bustard One
Re: For Bustard One
COPYRIGHT VIOLATIONS: Hoax?
Megatraveller rules assistance needed.
RE: Copyright Violation
(no subject)
Re: Psi copyright comments
Re: Copyright Violation
Uplifted canines and kangaroos
Command Ranks
Re: Psionic Master of the World

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:22:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Brawley <brawleyj@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #694

>Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:19:59 -0800
>From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
>Subject: zero point energy fluctuations?
>
>Eric Wrote:
>
>> The gist of it is that gravity is generated when particles are
>> subjected to zero-point fluctuations.
>
>Pardon my complete ignorance on the topic, I must have fell asleep
>during that lecture.
>What are zero-point fluctuations?
>Are they fluctuations from +ve to -ve with zero as a baseline?
>  
>
>
>
>> I have taken it one step further to say that if you can create
>> the right EM field around a vehicle (or any object) that is within
>> a gravity well, you can nullify the force of gravity on that
>> vehicle.
>
>That's how I picture anti-grav, as a gravity nullifier. This would 
>mean that you would require some other thrust agent. I've always liked
>that idea.
>
>" Captain, we've got null-G, but the fusion drive's packed it in, what
>now?"
>
>"Just throw a rock out the rear airlock, that should get us moving."
>
>> For what its worth.
>
>It's worth a lot.
>Thank's
>
>
>Harry the signatureless (still).
>
Hello,

I'm new to the list, and I've never written anything to it, but I thought
that I would on this letter.  Pardon any nettiquette screw ups.

If you read in the RCEG, it explains that CG does create a field where
gravity is nullified.  It's description is in with the Grav Belt and Grav
Bike "broomstick"

Hope this isn't just restating the obvious.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:40:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Again and again and AGAIN!!

<whine mode>

Dammit!  Over the weekend I get to deal with a nice, manageable one or 
two digests per day and then, in twelve hours, SPEWWW!!!! I've got FOUR 
in my in-box.

That doesn't bother me so much as the fact that SO MUCH of it is waste.  
We've already discussed the duplicate messages, and arrived at the 
conclusion that it's nothing that the list subscribers can help.  What we 
CAN help is the reply quoting.

I saw no less than THREE COMPLETE COPIES of the forwarded e-mail from 
that "A. Friend" crackpot.  WHY?!?  Why on Earth (or anywhere else) is it 
necessary for me to see the same thing THREE TIMES?!?  There IS NO GOOD 
REASON, darnit!

Here's a hint:  Instead of quoting the WHOLE MESSAGE you're referring to, 
trim it down to the RELEVANT PARTS.  Go ahead and TRIM OUT the whole 
previous discussion unless it's absolutely necessary -- it's already been 
seen, okay?  Whenever possible, summarize, just so long as it doesn't 
kill the context.  Instead of reposting that crackpot's ENTIRE LETTER, 
you could just say:

[crackpot's letter snipped]

and people who hadn't just come out of a coma yesterday would know what 
you're on about.

Also, please, please, PLEASE don't repost somebody's lengthy article on 
the new Intel skill just so you could put "Great!  I liked it!" at the 
bottom.  That's STUPID!  If all you're going to do is pat the guy on the 
back, do it in e-mail, for crying out loud.  If you've got nothing new to 
add to a thread, then DON'T ADD TO THE THREAD.

For those of you who actually take heed:  Thanks for listening.
For those of you who don't:  If you want to shut me up, you'd better.

</whine mode>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:20:09 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: More Zampolits

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> This whole discussion reminds me of the scene in Clancy's "Red Storm
> Rising", where the Soviet General commanding Iceland is trying to deal with
> the USMC landings; his zampolit begins ranting about how they will show the
> Americans "how Soviet soldiers fight!"  The General says great, hands the
> zampolit an AK, and sends him off to the thick of the action to lead by example.

I'm more reminded of the scene in _HFRO_ where Captain Raimus _kills_ his _zamploit_ and 
makes it look like an "accident," just before the defection begins.

> 
> While the Third Imperium probably won't have political officers, it might
> have an equally annoying counter-part: low-rank/high SOC officers.  Imagine
> having a Subsector Duke's son aboard your CL.. especially if he's a devious
> little bastard..

Thinking of 19th-century Britain, perhaps... :)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:08:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Putting the Middies in Charge

I've just done reading 'Prisoner's Hope' by (I forget...)
partly on the recomendation of somebody on this list and
WOW, good book. Great series. That's where the subject came from,
as I'll get to...

> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
> 
> Excellent post! Very useful. One comment, though: Given the large size of the 
> Imperium, I get the feeling that - unless the Navy is very top-heavy - in many 
> cases you'll see lower ranks given more responsibility. You may see a Cmdr in 
> charge of an entire system, or a Captain in charge of a subsector fleet, 
> because there's a huge amount of space and only a finite number of officers to 
> go round.

Now _this_ is exactly why I think the Nth Interstellar War/Beginning
of the Rule of Man milieu is sooo exciting...

"Lieutenant Mason!"
"Yes Sir!"
"You have been placed in command of the newly captured Vilani system
Messurkesshur. Requisition a staff and take the USS Powell. It's approximately
2 months away, solid jump. Don't waste any time, as the garrison
fleet has to move on ASAP. Waste time and they'll leave before
you arrive and that would _not_ be a good idea."
"Aye, aye Sir!"

Little does poor Lieutenant know that Messurkesshur has a population
of 6.7 billion, a subgitaed and irritated lower class of local
minor race humans, a rather put-out upper class of Vilani nobles
who really don't like the Terrans much more than the old Empire, several
orbiting spaceports, a couple in-system mining & farming colonies and
oh, did I mention that USS Powell used to be the USS Polo, recently
returned from its refit to ship of the line from garbage scow?
Luckily, he'll probably still remember a lot of his Naval Academy
knowledge, after all, he graduated only 22 months ago...

You'd think the (temporary) garrison fleet would be more careful with its
intelligence reports...

It's like putting the PCs into a sort of Deep Space 9 type situation,
except much, much, MUCH worse. Lots of fun though. 

If and when I ever manage to get a campaign running in ole' TO,
I'm definitely going to go for this kind of background.

Ethan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:13:04 -0500
From: BrianMays@aol.com
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

In a message dated 96-11-25 07:48:40 EST, "A Friend" writes:

<< Psionics has blossomed out
 and is being used by a handful of people on the net. You are only one of
 those. However, you seem to be one of the more intelligent.  >>

So . . . because you appear to be more intelligent, he is telling you
specifically to stop using "psionic?"  And all of the "stupid" people can go
right on infringing on his alleged copyright?

And he refuses to use his real name?

I'd check the BBB and any cult-monitoring agencies you may know of.  There
may also have been a breakout in a mental institution somewhere that we are
not aware of.  Cover your bases. ; )

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:17:48 -0500
From: BrianMays@aol.com
Subject: Re: Psionic Master of the World

In a message dated 96-11-25 09:07:28 EST, you write:

<< the term "psionics" and all associated _fictional_ references to it and
 psionic institutions, has been used, unchallenged, for over 20 years within
 the Traveller RPG, which has had a distribution of tens of thousands of
 people across the world. >>

Not just Traveller!  Every Sci Fi RPG I've read has some "psionics" in it
somewhere.  Hell, GURPS has a whole BOOK on Psionics, called "PSIONICS."

A. Friend has "issues."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:28:20 -0600
From: "Knight, Kevin" <KKnight@KellerCrescent.com>
Subject: RE: Psionic Master of the World

Hey, c'mon! This guy/gal is just jerking your strings. There is NO WAY
he can have a copyright on the term Psionics, no more the William Gibson
has a copyright on the term Cyberspace!

>----------
>From: 	BrianMays@aol.com[SMTP:BrianMays@aol.com]
>Sent: 	Monday, November 25, 1996 3:17PM
>To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: 	Re: Psionic Master of the World
>
>In a message dated 96-11-25 09:07:28 EST, you write:
>
><< the term "psionics" and all associated _fictional_ references to it and
> psionic institutions, has been used, unchallenged, for over 20 years within
> the Traveller RPG, which has had a distribution of tens of thousands of
> people across the world. >>
>
>Not just Traveller!  Every Sci Fi RPG I've read has some "psionics" in it
>somewhere.  Hell, GURPS has a whole BOOK on Psionics, called "PSIONICS."
>
>A. Friend has "issues."
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:28:28 -0500 (EST)
From: matth@homer.njit.edu (Matthew Harelick)
Subject: A. Friend

Hi: 

A. Friend sent one letter about the Psionics Institute to Stewart and
another one to Jo about the Traveller Institute, trying to lay claim to 
the name Traveller. 

In fact it was the same letter with the words substituted. 

I would suggest that we stop wasting time on this issue as someone
reading this list is probably ROFL at everyone. 


- -- 
Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:34:10 -0100
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: More Psionic trolling...

Jo Grant wrote:

>Yo Folks,
>
>Seldom do I forward emails in their entirey, but the following
>arrived in my jmail, and I'd thought I'd sent it to the list, so
>I've sent the whole lot.  to put it in context, I think this bloke is
>refering to my web pages at http://www.maths.tcd.ie/pub/travaid.
>My questions are:
>
>1) How many others have had anything from this guy?
>
>2) Is s/he for real?
>
>3) Does copyright on things in the US effect its use by me in Ireland?
>
>4) How does this effect GDW/IG's use of the term Traveller's Aid Society?
>
>5) Anyone any idea why someone might think using a copyrighted word in
>a fictional setting can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when
>that use has been made since 1979 (by GDW)?
>
>Thanks
>
>Jo Grant <jo_grant@crd.lotus.com>
[cruft deleted]
>
>Jo:
>
>You appear to be an educated and ethical individual. Therefore, I am
>writing you directly, rather than through some impersonal legal
>counsel, to put you on notice that you rather innocent use of the term
[snip]
>I do not know how invested you are in your use of our term and our name,
>but I must ask you to cease and desist from using that which was created
>by and rightfully belongs to us and represents a REAL-LIVE Institute of
>Traveller's Aid.
>
>Yours Truly
>
>A. Friend



        AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH! <bangs head against wall, pulls out hair>

        Jo: listen: you don't have to worry until you get a letter from
Your Friend's lawyers...

        You sure you aren't interested in this bridge in Brooklyn that I'm
unloading?  It's a real steal :).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:15:04 -0800
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: A. Friend

Rod wrote:
>         AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH! <bangs head against wall, pulls out hair>
> 
>         Jo: listen: you don't have to worry until you get a letter from
> Your Friend's lawyers...

Matthew Harelick wrote:
> A. Friend sent one letter about the Psionics Institute to Stewart and
> another one to Jo about the Traveller Institute, trying to lay claim to
> the name Traveller.
> 
> In fact it was the same letter with the words substituted.
> 
> I would suggest that we stop wasting time on this issue as someone
> reading this list is probably ROFL at everyone.

I suggest that Jo Grant is also ROFL. Obviously, Jo didn't receive an
email from this "A.Friend" character.

I think there is a high degree of probability that Jo, seeing the absurd
email received by Stewart Eyres, forged her/his own Email using
Stewart's as a template, substituting Stu's website with her/his own,
and Psionics Institute with Traveller's Aid.

I say this with confidence, since simple comparison reveals the same
spelling mistake in the preamble (not part of A.Friend's email), which
BTW is also worded the exact same way: "I don't normally forward emails
in their entirey,"
	                                       ^^^^^^^

Not only have y'all been had by this quack named "A.Friend" but Jo has
added his/her own little sly twist to this debacle.

Good job Jo! ;-) I admire your sardonic wit.

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========
     Examine what is said, not him who speaks. - Arab Proverb

PS. I'm beginning to wonder if this whole farce is some sort of Zhodani
Conspiracy to waste bandwidth and bring computer networks on Terra to
their knees. :-)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 96 09:30:44 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: For Bustard One

     Begin ASP (Aussie Slang Protocol) encryption: 
     
     Bustard One
     New email address bugarup. Relay *essential* messages via Bustards 
     Three to Seven. Please confirm whether callsign Bustard Two is in or 
     out of new operation codenamed 'Complete Blah'. 
     Bustard Two

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:12:22 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: For Bustard One

At 09:30 AM 11/26/96 +1100, you wrote:
>     Begin ASP (Aussie Slang Protocol) encryption: 
>     
>     Bustard One
>     New email address bugarup. Relay *essential* messages via Bustards 
>     Three to Seven. Please confirm whether callsign Bustard Two is in or 
>     out of new operation codenamed 'Complete Blah'. 
>     Bustard Two
>

I have no idea what in the hell these two are saying.

"Common Language" my ass.

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:41:28 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: COPYRIGHT VIOLATIONS: Hoax?

OKAY, now we have a second person receiving an almost identical e-mail from
a guy claiming he owns the word Traveller as well as Psionics. This is
rapidly looking like
a hoax, and if it is, it's harassment. Anyway we can find out where this
crap is really coming from?
                        Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:56:46 -0500
From: COsborne@aol.com
Subject: Megatraveller rules assistance needed.

I am a new MT referee in need of rules clarification.  Most of the rules are 
     straightforward, but those for targeting in direct fire are convoluted.

Page 69   "All units (enemy or friendly) in a firing unit's line of fire are
potential     
                targets."

Page 72   "All targets along the weapon's line of fire and in the same range
band as 
                the primary target are attacked by the fire (at full
penetration for the range    
                band); others in the line of fire but in different range
bands are not."

               "The target closest to the firing unit is attacked first, then
the next closest      
                (target means active units in the fire's danger space,
regardless of hostile  
                or friendly status."

Errata, Re: Page 72, Line of Fire (addition)
               "The target closest to the firing unit and in the line of fire
is attacked first, 
                ignoring all friendly units.  However, if exceptional failure
occurs when 
                rolling a hit, then friendly units are included when
determining the 
                closest target."

So, if a PC is aiming at an enemy who is 40m away, and there are friendly
units at 
     2m and 17m and enemy units at 7m, 19m, and 45m, then how do I figure out
who    
     he hits?

PC--F-----E----------F--E---------------------P-----F
            \________________________/
                           med. range

Does he have roll against the enemy at 7m first, then 19m, and then the
primary 
     target?  If he hits one, then are the rest of the targets still at risk?
 How many 
     enemy can be hit by a single bullet?  If he misses the first enemy, and
then 
     misses exceptionally against the second, does he go back to the friendly
unit at 
     17m next?  Is there any risk to the friendly unit at 2m?  What does
danger space 
     have to do with any of this?  Can full autofire be used to make multiple
attacks 
     against a single target?  What about targets in the same line of fire,
but not 
     adjacent to each other?

Does anyone have a faq or flowchart for this?  Are there any products which
clarify these rules?

Argh!  Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:46:43 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <kc@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Copyright Violation

>You appear to be an educated and ethical individual. Therefore, I am
>writing you directly, rather than through some impersonal legal
>counsel,
>to put you on notice that you rather innocent use of the term
>"Psionics"
>is a violation of a Copyright held by myself. Psionics has blossomed
>out
>and is being used by a handful of people on the net. You are only one
>of
>those. However, you seem to be one of the more intelligent.

"Rather than through some impersonal legal counsel", give me a break!" If 
this turkey is really serious, he'd better go out and get some legal 
counsel. Otherwise, ignore him.

>Yours Truly
>
>A. Friend

Now was this letter really signed A Friend, or did you just snip out the 
name. If this character doesn't have the courage to sign his own name, I 
think we can safely forget about this.

While what everyone said that even if this was for real, this guy probably 
wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on, it seems more likely to me that this 
is some kind of joke.

K.C. Komosky
(no, I'm not a lawyer, I've just spent to many hours studying for the LSAT 
- - when will this agony end?!?!)
kc@mb.sympatico.ca

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`
end

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 17:08:08 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@max-net.com>
Subject: (no subject)

unsubscribe traveller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:53:17 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Psi copyright comments

Keith Thoms wrote: 
> My advice is to politely respond that it's only a fictional game, bow out, and change your > web page so as not to draw more scrutiny.

NEVER!
Don't give this idiot the satisfaction of a victory, no matter how small. This 
man/woman/asexual is a bully. Don't let the precedent be set.

Sorry, I was gonna stay out of this one, but I had to make this one statement

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:27:00 -0500
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

Stewart Eyres wrote:
> 
> Hi there
> 
> I don't normally forward emails in their entirey, but the following
> came to me, and I'd thought I'd ask for comments from the list, so
> I've sent it all.  to put it in context, I think he is refering to my
> web pages at http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~spe/Hobbies.html.  My questions are:
> 
> 1) Has anyone else had anything from this guy?
> 
> 2) Is s/he for real?
> 
> 3) Does copyright on things in the US effect its use by me in the UK?
> 
> 4) How does this effect GDW/IG's use of the term Psionic Institute?
> 
> 5) Anyone any idea if using a copyrighted word in a fictional setting
> can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when that use has
> been made since 1979 (by GDW)?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
> 
> ----Forwarded Message Starts----
> 
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:09:44 -0800
> From: A Friend <friend@earthlink.net>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> To: spe@astro.keele.ac.uk
> 

Here are a few suggestions, If he bothers you again, tell him you need
more information.  Firstly, when was the first public use of his word. 
It is not sufficient to coin a word for himself but he must also
demonstrate a use for it.  Secondly inform him that if indeed he ever
had a copiright, the word has fallen into mundane usage by simple
negligence on his part.  Lastly, tell him that if he ever dares attempt
to sue you for something that silly, you will make sure he will loose
everything (if I read his message carefully he might actually believe
the stuff he tells you and attempt to turn you into a frog... ribbit
ribbit ribbit...).

Finally, you might want to let him know that the US was not a signatory
to the Berne Convention in 1959.  Therefore, his copyright is no good in
Britain (I don't know if this is true, but your legal mumbo jumbo is as
good as his legal mumbo jumbo).

What I find truly amazing is that he might truly believe this stuff...

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 96 13:35:48 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: Uplifted canines and kangaroos

     I suggest you check out the K-9 Corps in Heinlein's _Starship 
     Troopers_ for a good example of an uplifted canine. They aren't your 
     *anime* type humanoid animals, but a subhuman (moron-level) intellect, 
     geneered for limited speech but capable of pretty complex training. 
     
     The Vargr would be high-tech geneering indeed. 
     
     I suggest that uplifted animals have 1d6 rolls for INT, EDU and SOC; 
     and physical stats based upon their physical abilities. 
     
     Hence: 
     
     Roos - geneered Terran macropod marsupial. 
     STR    3d6+1, max 18
     DEX    2d6+2, max 15
     END    3d6+4, max 20
     INT    1d6, max 10
     EDU    1d6+TL/4, max 10
     SOC    1d6, max 10
     
     Automatic skills: Herding-1, Athletics-1, Perception-1
     Available careers: Army, Scouts, Entertainers, Barbarians

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 96 13:42:24 +1100
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Subject: Command Ranks

     In our Navy, a patrol boat is commanded by a LTCOMD. This is close 
     enough to a SDB in size/function for my purposes. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:22:28 -0500
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Psionic Master of the World

Knight, Kevin wrote:
> 
> Hey, c'mon! This guy/gal is just jerking your strings. There is NO WAY
> he can have a copyright on the term Psionics, no more the William Gibson
> has a copyright on the term Cyberspace!
<tongue in cheek mode on>

hey waitaminithere!  I've the the copyright to the phrase "jerking your
strings!"  Cease and desist in its use or pay me royalties!  My English
Teacher/Mentor and I developed that term after watching a puppet show!

You'll be hearing from my liars! er I mean LAWYERS!  
- -- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email)    peterb@superlink.net (play Email)%%
%% "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"  %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #696
**********************************

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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 26 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 697



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:Intelligence analysis
Re: Copyright Violation
Re: Zampolit go splash!
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #696
Traveller on IRC
Political Officers
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: Copyright Violation
Again and again and AGAIN!!
common language?
RE: common language?
Re: Megatraveller rules assistance needed.
MT weapons & equipment for T4
Re: Copyright violation
About that copyright violation...
Re: About that copyright violation...
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: Copyright Violation
Re: Copyright Violation
Re: A. Friend

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:36:53 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: Re:Intelligence analysis

    Michael.Barry  Wrote

  Before we go off on tangents with a zillion different sub-skills
     for intel careers, how about this idea: 

     A _single_ skill (Intel; so named not to be confused with
     Intelligence characteristic), based on INT and EDU This skill
     allows gathering of various information together into an
     integrated picture, and permits prediction of future activity
     based on knowledge of past dispositions and behaviours. ......

You idea was very good and I like the douple use of skills to show 
that Intel people tend to be specialized in their knowledge. 

Tim Reynolds
tim@premier.net (home)
tim@valhalla.gpasf.com (work)
www.gpasf.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:16:59 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

HE-HE-HE

you had me lol with that one daniel

from lawrence

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:12:09 -0500
From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Subject: Re: Zampolit go splash!

At 11:46 AM -0500 11/25/96, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>Leonard M. Erickson wrote:
>>The problem is that the mere pattern of disappearing zampolits is
>>*more* than sufficient ground to send you to the gulag. You aren't
>>*nearly* paranoid enough to survive in such a society.
>        Naw... what you do is you frame your least capable junior officers
>for it..;)

And quickly try and execute him.

Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"Man does not live by words alone, despite the fact that he sometimes has to
eat them."  --Adlai Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1996 03:45:32 GMT
From: ajpursell@babylon.montreal.qc.ca (Alan Pursell)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #696

Hey there,

gone south to get some sun and recover from the snow that just keeps on
coming... back next tuesday. 

see ya...

alan j

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:08:17 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Wednesday Night is Traveller Night!  (Ok, Thursday is, but its a US 
holiday, so we're being our usual arrogant selves and holding it a 
day early <g>).

This week's topic is "Game Handouts". Come talk about things you have given out as a GM, 
or received as a player, that helped make your game special;  
Imperial ID's, "aged" documents, etc. 

I'll be on IRC by 6:00PM Mountain Standard Time.  The following time 
zone equivalents apply:

             US Eastern :  9:00 PM 
             US Pacific :  6:00 PM 
             London     :  2:00 AM 
             Paris      :  3:00 AM

We have been trying to use the same server to help keep us from
getting lag.  We have had the best luck with:

             stlouis.mo.us.undernet.org       
             ports numbered:6660-6669 

If at first you don't get through, try again.  If you can't get on this
server, try another one that you have with your program, but make sure
that it has the '.undernet.org' suffix or you may not be able to find
us. Finally, as a last resort, if you have any troubles, eMail me. I 
will keep my email running and checking mail every 3 minutes.  I will 
be happy to try to help you land at the correct jump coordinates. 
My email address is:  suzd@goodnet.com


Here are a few places for you to look if you are new to IRC to help you 
get connected and join the live Traveller talk...
             
      http://www.undernet.org/ 
This is the Undernet homepage.  There are a number of helpful links here
that you might be interested in, including, the official server list for
the Undernet. (More on servers later.) 
  
      http://www2.axi.net/ 
This is the mIRC homepage.  mIRC is one of the most common IRC clients. 
Just like you need a web browser to view web pages, you use an IRC client
to chat on IRC.  This location includes downloads for the mIRC faq, an 
IRC faq, and the mIRC program itself.  It also includes a section titled 
"Instructions for Net Newbies & Download Dummies" that will help you on 
your way to IRC. 
    
     http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~frappa/pirch.html
This is another popular IRC client.  There are many links here to help 
you find your way to IRC as well. 

Now, once you have connected to your ISP and loaded your IRC client, you 
pick a server and a port and then connect to IRC.  After that, you join 
#traveller and commence talking to us. :) 

Sorry for the length. 

Your IRC Gang... 

SuzD, stiger, JoeW, shadowcat  (AKA, Suz, Paul, Joe, Kevin)
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 21:59:37 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Political Officers

On 11/24/96 at 09:34 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> For those of you who didn't know:  The zampolit's function was to ensure 
>> that the ship commander's decisions were 'politically correct.'  The 
>> parallel command structure was developed to insure that military units 
>> always acted in the best interests of the Communist Party of the Soviet 
>> Union.  With all of the different, wacky political and military entities 
>> possible in the Traveller universe, such a parallel command structure 
>> could be present in a different form with different names.  I'd like to 
>> think, however, were I a captain under such circumstances, that I'd be able 
>> to find safe, deniable methods for wearing out my political officers quickly.

>The problem is that the mere pattern of disappearing zampolits is *more*
>than sufficient ground to send you to the gulag. 

At least! 

Actually, the Zampolit was the *visible* representation of the Party.  What
you'd really want to watch out for would be the
*invisible*...uh, moles. <g> 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 23:41:29 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

On 11/25/96 at 02:07 PM,  Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk> said:

>During WWII, I thought some bombers were flown by entirely
>non-commisioned crew, ie. the pilot was an NCO, other crew were lesser
>NCOs and Enlisted. 

In the RAF, yes, but not in the USAAF.  In the good old USAAF there was an
Officer sitting in both pilot's seats.

Anything larger than an armed row boat will have an Officer in command. <G>

In My Games...
A Gig or Ship's Boat might be commanded by an Ensign, but actually *run* by
a senior NCO.  Patrol Torpedo Boats (my version of
fighters) have Lt's (jg's and full Lt's) in command.  A *squadron* of PT
boats, and their tender, are commanded by a LtCmdr (at least). Corvettes
and Escorts have a LtCmdr (min) in command.  Destroyers and Frigates are a
good billet for a Cmdr.  Larger individual ships (Ship's of the Line) rate
a Captain.  Flag Officers, Admirals, command squadrons and fleets.
 
My Officer ranks:
- -- 
O1  Ensign            
O2  Lt, junior grade  
O3  Lt                
O4  Lt, senior grade  
O5  Lt Cmdr           
O6  Cmdr
O7  Captain
O7A Fleet Captain (Honorary title for a Captain commanding a
    squadron of ships commanded by other Captains.)
O7B Commodore (Honorary title for a Captain billeted aboard a ship
    they do not command.
    
My Flag ranks:
- --     
O8  Rear Admiral
O9  Admiral
OA  Fleet Admiral
OB  Grand Admiral
OC  Grand Admiral of the Fleet


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 22:43:28 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

On 11/25/96 at 10:06 AM,  Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com> said:

>	You cannot copyright a phrase.  Thus they do not have a valid copyright
>claim against you.

>You CAN trademark a phrase...  

Yes, but...

>...However the usage restrictions on trademarks are MUCH less.
>Basically they would have to prove that your usage of the term
>diluted their trademark usage.  Since you are using a term in use
>within a fictional context that does not refer to their work, or
>their area of work, it would be difficult for them to prove it.

Exactly! <g>

>In the US this never the less could be expensive for you (you have
>to cover your own lawyers fees in civil cases).

Yes, but if they sue you and lose you can sue them for relief. That's how
lawyers get RICH!  <g>

Here's an interesting thought...which court would have legal
jurisdiction?  An English one, where the web site is physically located? 
An American one, where the plantif accessed the site and discovered that
you were alledged misappropriating their trademaked item.

BTW, I'm not a lawyer either, so my comments on anything legal have no
weight...none at all!  <g>

Eris

ps.  Isn't it amazing how we Americans *know* so much about this suit
stuff, and how we insist on sticking in "weasel words" in an attempt to
cover our posteriors just in case somebody decides to sue us?  <g>

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:13:35 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Again and again and AGAIN!!

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>

[delightful rant about redundant postings deleted]

I'm with Wes on this.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:24:16 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: common language?

>       "Common Language" my ass.

Seeing as we are on the topic (er .... donkeys?) I'd like to point
out a word that is beginning to become quite common in some North 
American sitcoms.
It's the word fanny. I can't help but blush when I here it used.
"Get your butt over here." I can quite handle, it means the same
'down under' as it does "up over", but if you say to an Aussie
"Get your fanny over here!"... uhhm....weelll....hmmm.

Even with a common language, similar words may have differing
meanings.

If galanglic is still a common language in the Imperium, imagine
the fun an evil referee could have with this topic.

"Why did he hit me? I only offered to buy him a scotch on the rock's!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:47:43 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <kc@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: common language?

>Seeing as we are on the topic (er .... donkeys?) I'd like to point
>out a word that is beginning to become quite common in some North
>American sitcoms.
>It's the word fanny. I can't help but blush when I here it used.
>"Get your butt over here." I can quite handle, it means the same
>'down under' as it does "up over", but if you say to an Aussie
>"Get your fanny over here!"... uhhm....weelll....hmmm.

I don't get is

Well, don't hold us in suspense! What does it mean, or imply, in Oz?

BTW, while normally we Canucks prefer the term North American to American 
(don't like being lumped in with those yankees, eh), in the case of 
sitcoms, feel free to call them American. Let the US take the well-deserved 
blame for those.

(and as for the very few Canadian sitcoms, I think we as a country would 
rather disown them as well).

K.C. Komosky
freezing his fanny off in the -25 Flin Flon, Manitoba, Canada winter
kc@mb.sympatico.ca

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M(I!)*D `<">[!4 6(7 HH">1"C%S*X!^=Q8@`Z T0!8@(2$J$""?-7 )@"_/
M,-\Q[R)'$@#<('D(834")V%V(C$V(APN(C0T*>41P&YD;#QE+#9B!X &(B&"
M<V&?!X V_S@/'"XC8&]W`Z#V=3R@!) G(*(V<2*P!Y'L(G4T\#L"(CS@-1(&
MD-LZ4CW!>2/2`Y%!-7 `D#\^#S\?0"\Z&#/3.O@A(N$B<G5H:&TB8B#@%C'^
M;")B2D J<#;H&R\<-"N6]S1 (K$TD6<Z,00`"H4*A>Y7%C$\X$XT: ;P(W U
M<-LJLS5P< GP$? A3\ H0K]"8ST%/. %L0=P"U!Y/.$1`Z!/>C]._$)45^\\
MX#6P`Q @\&X%L # %D"+1# @X4,`<'5C:P0@WQR@#< B,2&#!)!M*S4NQ_LC
MX2['*$XT(Y,HL"!R"D"_4U )@"JR`_ K<2& ;Q'P'SI0`' BX >0/.!E:"GO
M4Y,A@B\06]%O0[ O53S@_U<0%C SP G1(](O$!9!(8&W5\ NQB*03#HQ(8)5
M!?!O`9 CLC-2%C$M#; 1\'+_.Q C< )@/>$SP 6Q6Z,BD/U._"@\D2"B8O0@
M\#L11##G5Q 'X%9A860',"\W/.#W-$ A@ N :R#3!" GP 6@K4&0=&6A)^!U
M4+%R*%!_-B$BH 0`05)?@R"S%D I1TN,19\KEDLN0R*02[,#<%O :WEJU5ZR
M>B!R7U509.%(Y W07-8M&= @OD9,8 .@<( "(#S@30!P\2H0;V)A/.!F$R?!
M)#$C!)!JU6MC0 ;0+G/+!L!K`'0A\&\N+Q!._ 46P0!U4 `#`! 0`0````,`
M$1 `````0 `',' 18-!DV[L!0 `(,' 18-!DV[L!'@`]``$````%````4D4Z
/( `````#``TT_3<``+B.
`
end

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:16:57 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: Megatraveller rules assistance needed.

COsborne@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I am a new MT referee in need of rules clarification.  Most of the rules are
>      straightforward, but those for targeting in direct fire are convoluted.

Hi! I started as MT referee recently, too. Now I've changed to to T4.

> So, if a PC is aiming at an enemy who is 40m away, and there are friendly
> units at
>      2m and 17m and enemy units at 7m, 19m, and 45m, then how do I figure out
> who
>      he hits?

He tells you, whom he wants to hit, doesn't he?

> PC--F-----E----------F--E---------------------P-----F
>             \________________________/
>                            med. range
> 
> Does he have roll against the enemy at 7m first, then 19m, and then the
> primary
>      target?  If he hits one, then are the rest of the targets still at risk?

If he shoots ONE target and hits it, the others stay unharmed, of course, 
except he uses ammo with a danger space (i.e. grenades).

>  How many
>      enemy can be hit by a single bullet?

Depends on the ammo. If he uses ammo with dangerspace (=exploding or 
poisoning ...), it's fairly likely that there are more units affected.

>If he misses the first enemy, and
> then
>      misses exceptionally against the second, does he go back to the friendly
> unit at
>      17m next?

There's a difference between missing and missing. If you shoot, and WILL 
miss, because you stumbled or didn't aim right or whatever (exceptional 
failure), then the bullet may as well hit a person standing in front of 
the target nearby. Of course the bullet won't come back and hit him !!

>Is there any risk to the friendly unit at 2m?

Depends on how you want it. He could be the most endangered at 
exceptional failure.

>What does
> danger space
>      have to do with any of this?

See above.

>Can full autofire be used to make multiple
> attacks
>      against a single target?

Yes. (I did it like this, but you as a referee can handle this as you 
like)

>What about targets in the same line of fire,
> but not
>      adjacent to each other?

Hm? If I understand you right on this, you ask for targets, standing one 
behind the other. Well, the frontmost is the one, who will be aimed for.

Else, the player will tell you, whom he's aiming at.

 
> Does anyone have a faq or flowchart for this?  Are there any products which
> clarify these rules?
> 
> Argh!  Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

One statement: YOU are the GOD in your game. Act like it!
Which means: stick to the rules only as long as you are comfortable with 
them.

Hope this helps.
CyA
Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:35:33 +0100
From: Jerome DARMONT <darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr>
Subject: MT weapons & equipment for T4

 One thing that amazed me when I purchased MT was the huge diversity of
equipment and weapons available to the players. I must say my players
appreciated that very much (too much? :) too. T4 is not that exhaustive.
It is easy to use the equipment from the Imperial Encyclopedia in T4,
but the weapons' stats have to be adapted. Has anyone done that yet? If
so, I am interested! If not, I'm about to do the conversion. So if anyone
else is interested...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerome DARMONT, LIMOS, Universite Blaise Pascal - Clermont-Ferrand II
darmont@libd1|2.univ-bpclermont.fr, oodbprjd@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
http://www-laforia.ibp.fr/~mynard/w3jd/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:20:07 GMT
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Copyright violation

Hi there

Oh, dear, I seem to have generated a bit too much in the way of
response, there.  Sorry.

I think My Friend is probably a hoaxer, but if not he may well be a
nutter...I've got this great idea for a psionic cult though, don't
know where it came from.

BTW, I'm suing Jo for blatently using my words!!!! I wrote them, and I
don't want anyone else using them!!!!!!!!

Yours unstably

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

PS. Hopefully that will be all on this message.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 05:44:41 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: About that copyright violation...

Greetings:

Sounds like a scam to me! "A Friend" indeed! Plus look at the one that Jo 
Grant got--same violation, same tone...I'm sorry, but if you look at the 
history of SF, I'll bet you can find thousands of uses of the word 
psionics and probaby institutions of psionics! Is our "Friend" going to 
take them all out as well?

Ditto the Travellers' Aid Society: Did they ever go after GDW? I'll bet 
GDW had this cleared somehow way back when.

Tell "the friend" to give a real name. Tell him/her to produce proof of 
copyright. Tell them to fly a proverbial kite. Ahh, the wonders of the 
infobahn. Kick over a rock and see what crawls out!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.net)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:11:51 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: About that copyright violation...

FKiesche@concentric.net wrote:
> 
> Greetings:
> 
> Sounds like a scam to me! "A Friend" indeed! Plus look at the one that Jo
> Grant got--same violation, same tone...I'm sorry, but if you look at the
> history of SF, I'll bet you can find thousands of uses of the word
> psionics and probaby institutions of psionics! Is our "Friend" going to
> take them all out as well?

Hah! That's very right! :-)
Mybe he sues the Travelling Willburies next ... ;-)

CyA
Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:09:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 96-11-24 22:22:13 EST, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
>
>> The distances in space combat mean it would be useless to fight 
>>  "visually" as you can't even *see* the enemy.
>
> Which leads me to something I have long wondered about: at what distance in
> space are ships, stations, etc., visible to the naked eye?  I realize this
> will never come up in combat, but, say you are trying to dock at a highport.
>  When can you actually look out the window and see it?  Anyone have any idea?
>  Pure curiousity, witht the intent of adding more "feel" to my campaign.

Well, it turns out that from *low* orbit (Mercury, Gemini, Space
Shuttle, etc) you can actually see large animals on the ground! This
was scoffed at until later flights confirmed it. This is "see" in the
sense of seeing individual dots as a herd of elephants...

So ships might be visible at multi-thousand km ranges, but only as
points of light (if you know where to look, you can see a lot of
satellites in fairly distant orbits).

Seeing any sort of detail requires that they be fairly close.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:19:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

In mail you write:

> I don't normally forward emails in their entirey, but the following
> came to me, and I'd thought I'd ask for comments from the list, so
> I've sent it all.  to put it in context, I think he is refering to my
> web pages at http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~spe/Hobbies.html.  My questions are:
>
> 1) Has anyone else had anything from this guy?
>
> 2) Is s/he for real?

Not bloody likely. For one thing, you can't *copyright* a *term*. You
can possibly trademark it, but that's iffy. And he'd have lost the
trademark decades ago, as "Psionics" has been in common use in SF since
the 60s, if not the 40s or 50s.

> 3) Does copyright on things in the US effect its use by me in the UK?

Possibly. But again, he *cannot* have a copyright on a *word*.

> 5) Anyone any idea if using a copyrighted word in a fictional setting
> can be challenged under copyright laws, particularly when that use has
> been made since 1979 (by GDW)?

Words can't be copyrighted. They can be trademarked, and his trademark
would have lapsed long ago for allowing the term to come into common use.

> These terms were not only
> Copyrighted by us, they were U.S. Trade and Service Marke by Mentor and
> myself.

It'd pay to have someone check with the patent & trademark office. But
even if they somehow *did* get "Psionics" and "Psionics Institute" and
"Institute of Psionics" registered, it'd take all of about 10 minutes
to get it thrown out simply by showing that the term was in common use
*before* they used it. And in fact, given the meaning of "psionics"
they *can't* trademark "Psionics Institute" or the like.

Politely point out to the man that the term has been in common use in
science fiction for 50 years, and has a quite different meaning.

If he brings in a lawyer, *then* worry. But only because he sounds like
the type that will fight a hopeless case.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:33:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

In mail you write:

> This guy sounds like a total crank, a loon, or a prankster: note that he
> signs himself by "A. Friend" - an obvious pseudonym. I doubt that he can
> claim copyright without giving his real name. And I don't think he or his
> "Mentor" can legally claim any exclusive right to the word "psionics", any
> more than Isaac Asimov can force US Robotics to pay him for the use of his
> term. It may well be that "A. Friend" and/or "Henry D. Frazier" actually
> did invent the term, but if so they obviously failed to keep control of it
> in the 1950s. It has long since passed into general usage.
>
> Here's a quote from the entry on "PSI POWERS" in _The Encyclopedia of
> Science Fiction_, by John Clute & Peter Nichols (St. Martin's Griffin,
> 1993): "John W. Campbell, Jr....also popularized in the mid-1950s the
> related term "psionics", which he once defined as "psychic electronics";
> one of the earliest uses was in Murray Leinster's "The Psionic Mousetrap"
> (1955)."
>
> Notice that Leinster's story and Campbell's articles pre-date by several
> years "Friend & Frazier's" supposed incorporation of the term in "General
> Psionics" in 1959. Of course, Campbell may well have picked it up from
> Frazier and his Friend. But if they didn't even try to stop Campbell and
> Leinster from using the term back then, they can't legally try to stop you,
> me, TSR, GDW and a thousand SF writers from using it now.
>
> Mind you, if this guy wants to come out of hiding behind his pseudonym and
> actually sue you, he could still make your life hell. I doubt very much if
> he could win, but if he has lots of money (or is a lawyer himself) he can
> throw nuisance suits at you until you capitulate. Pointless litigation has
> become America's favourite passtime.

On the other hand, since he'd have to bring the suit under *trademark*
law, you can point out that he is *not* suing <insert long list of SF
authors>. And SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America) might even want
to get involved simply to remove a potential nuisance to their members.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:15:30 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: A. Friend

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>
>I suggest that Jo Grant is also ROFL. Obviously, Jo didn't receive an
>email from this "A.Friend" character.
>
[snip]
>
>Not only have y'all been had by this quack named "A.Friend" but Jo has
>added his/her own little sly twist to this debacle.
>
>Good job Jo! ;-) I admire your sardonic wit.


        Interesting..:).  OTOH, it could have our original prankster
trolling in other waters; at least that's what I thought.  However, if Jo
was anti-troll trolling then bravo: that was very subtle.

        I'm quite entertained by all this.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #697
**********************************

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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 26 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 698



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Copyright Violation
Re: Copyright Violation
Re: Uplifted canines and kangaroos=20
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #697
re: common language?
House Rule: Miltary Intelligence Pt. 1 (Long)
IRC
Bustard one and two
The whole Copyright violation thread!
RE: re: Deckplan layout
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: [T96#686] House Rules and Ranks
Re: Bad Taste?
Re: Deckplan layout
Re: House Rules: Active Duty
Re: House Rule: Miltary Intelligence Pt. 1 (Long)
Re: Command Ranks
Re: Political Officers
Re: common language?
Claris Draw Starship library
Anyone Seen Roger Sanger
Re: [T96#691] World Building/NH3-H2O

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:15:37 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

Daniel Poulin wrote:

[sage advice snipped]
>
>Finally, you might want to let him know that the US was not a signatory
>to the Berne Convention in 1959.  Therefore, his copyright is no good in
>Britain (I don't know if this is true, but your legal mumbo jumbo is as
>good as his legal mumbo jumbo).
>
>What I find truly amazing is that he might truly believe this stuff...


        What I find even more amazing is that a bunch of literate,
intelligent people, i.e. most of the TML, are taking this even vaguely
seriously.

       People, THIS A.FRIEND THING IS JUST A VERY AMUSING TROLL!!!
Furthermore, I'm certain it's being perpetrated by one of us.  I suggest
looking at TML regulars' posting patterns since the first troll.  Is ther=
e
anyone really, really prominent on the TML who has been unnaturally silen=
t
since this all began?  Go have a look.

        Thank you.  I thought so.

        Now, getting back to a classic topic, I've got this variant on th=
e
relativistic rock planet-killer that I'd like to share with you all..:)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:10:49 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: Copyright Violation

Eris Reddoch wrote:

[chainsaw noises]
>Here's an interesting thought...which court would have legal
>jurisdiction?  An English one, where the web site is physically located?
>An American one, where the plantif accessed the site and discovered that
>you were alledged misappropriating their trademaked item.


        Traditionally, you sue in the jurisdiction where the defendant is
domiciled.  However, some U.S. state courts do have this tendency to
encourage forum-shopping (Texas is bad for this), and given the Internett=
ed
nature of the alleged "violation" (ya right) and that nasty case where a
California BBS was prosecuted in Tennessee for a violation of Tennessee
obscenity-law violations, so in the U.S. this doesn't hold as much as it
used to.  Glenn M. Goffin can probably enlighten us further on this, as
he's a practicing U.S. attorney and I am not.

        That being said, an argument of forum non conveniens (exactly wha=
t
it sounds like) would probably work, assuming that A. Friend were for rea=
l
and not a pranking TMLer, and dumb enough to actually try to sue Jo.
Therefore, once Jo got it into a U.K. court, the first thing her solicito=
rs
would do (this is a real no-brainer here) is to move for dismissal and as=
k
the judge to hit A. Friend's solicitors with a costs order.  This lovely
feature of Anglo-Canadian law is a means whereby our judiciary can clobbe=
r
lawyers who launch unfounded, frivolous, or doomed-to-lose suits with an
order to pay all the costs of everyone involved and forbid them from
billing their clients to boot >:)

        I believe that the Republicans are pushing for a move in this
direction stateside.


  HOWEVER, THIS IS ALL MOOT SINCE A.FRIEND IS REALLY ONE OF US BEING FUNN=
Y!!!


>
>BTW, I'm not a lawyer either, so my comments on anything legal have no
>weight...none at all!  <g>
>
>Eris
>
>ps.  Isn't it amazing how we Americans *know* so much about this suit
>stuff, and how we insist on sticking in "weasel words" in an attempt to
>cover our posteriors just in case somebody decides to sue us?  <g>


        You said it, not me :).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:33:16 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: Uplifted canines and kangaroos=20

    "I suggest you check out the K-9 Corps in Heinlein's _Starship=20
     Troopers_ for a good example of an uplifted canine. They aren't your=
=20
     *anime* type humanoid animals, but a subhuman (moron-level) intellec=
t,=20
     geneered for limited speech but capable of pretty complex training."

This is similar to the way we played "neo-beasts" in our SF campaign.
Most looked almost exactly like their original versions, but could=20
talk.  In most cases, however, their intelligence was noticeably below
average.  In the societies we've gamed them, they default to minor=20
status and must always have legal guardians, unless they pass a=20
compentency test, in which case they are legal adults and can vote and=20
run for office, etc.  Much nastier and more exploitive societies are=20
terribly easy to imagine, of course.

(By the way, morons are not subhuman.)

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1996 13:45:22 GMT
From: ajpursell@babylon.montreal.qc.ca (Alan Pursell)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #697

Hey there,

gone south to get some sun and recover from the snow that just keeps on
coming... back next tuesday.=20

see ya...

alan j

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:01:49 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: re: common language?

K.C. Komsky Wrote:
>>It's the word fanny. I can't help but blush when I here it used.
>>"Get your butt over here." I can quite handle, it means the same
>>'down under' as it does "up over", but if you say to an Aussie
>>"Get your fanny over here!"... uhhm....weelll....hmmm.

>I don't get is

>Well, don't hold us in suspense! What does it mean, or imply, in Oz?

Greetings fellow Commonwealth member, may your TV be blessed with
British comedy.

OK, how can I be polite about this?
How about, if in australia if you asked a male to get his fanny
over here, you would be technically incorrect. Only the female of
the species would be capable.
By the way, it's the same area, just the other side.

It's not a very complementry term either.

By the way, is that -25C or -25.

Harry the signatureless.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:47:40 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: House Rule: Miltary Intelligence Pt. 1 (Long)

The following has grown from my original House Rule:Military=20
Intelligence Career.  As it has developed far beyond my original=20
idea, I will post it in two parts.  The first will cover the career itsel=
f=20
along with associated tables similar to those in the T4 rulebook.
The second post will detail the new Intel skill, Intelligence teams,=20
and various and sundry rules additions. I will be happy to e-mail=20
the complete .txt file of this document to anyone who is interested. =20
E-mail me privately with a request.

This article was written by Tim Peter with significant development=20
ideas provided by Michael Barry, Jeff Kazmierski, Rich Ostorero,=20
and Tim Reynolds. The Intel skill was created by Michael Barry=20
and developed further by Tim Peter.  All copyrights belong to their=20
respective holders, and this article is in no way an attempt to infringe=20
on the copyrights of FarFuture Enterprises, Imperium Games,=20
Authority Publishing, Digest Group Publications, Paranoia Press,=20
the aforementioned authors, or anyone with a really good lawyer=20
and an axe to grind.  Hopefully, that'll keep A. Friend quiet.

All apologies to anyone actually in MI who may completely disagree=20
with my interpretation of the rules and ideas discussed on TML.

The Military Intelligence career details members of the Intelligence=20
agencies within the larger framework of the Imperium military services. =20
Each service (Army, Navy, and Marine) maintains their own Intelligence=20
services that are responsible for collecting and analyzing data from=20
potentially hostile states, client states, and even other member worlds=20
of the Imperium.  Operatives are selected from the cream of the crop=20
for their investigative and analytical skills.  They are often assigned t=
o=20
Intelligence teams, responsible for gathering and analyzing data specific=
=20
to a given situation within the Imperium.

Intelligence agents are likely to pick up a variety of skills covering=20
electronic information and analysis gathering methods, various=20
technical and interpersonal skills, and self-defense principles.

All references to "parent service" refer to the initial career=20
(i.e., Army, Navy, Marines)=20

Enlistment or a commission in one of the three services mentioned above=20
is required to be selected as an Intelligence operative.

Routine Tasks:  monitor electronic signals, write reports, read reports,=20
read newspapers (TNS, et al), devise theories.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
------

Enlistment:      6-; DM +1 if Edu 7+; +2 if Int 9+
Injury:             8-;  DM +2 if Int 7+
Commission:   As per parent service
Promotion:      As per parent service
Continuance:   As per parent service


1. Physical                 4. Social
 1. +1 Str                     1. Administration
 2. +1 Dex                    2. Streetwise
 3. +1 End                    3. Bureaucracy
 4. Melee Combat         4. Clandestine
 5. Brawling                  5. Charisma
 6. Gun Combat            6. Jack-of-All-Trades
=20
2. Mental                   5. Career                          =20
 1. +1 Edu                    1. Interrogation
 2. Perception               2. Criminology                  =20
 3. Technical                 3. Bureaucracy                   =20
 4. Perception               4. Intel*                    =20
 5. Exploration              5. Charisma                         =20
 6. +1 Int                      6. Clandestine                       =20

3. Educational              6. Background
 1. First Aid                    1. Science
 2. Research                  2. Stealth                       =20
 3. Law                          3. Recon                          =20
 4. Psychology               4. Grav Craft                     =20
 5. Linguistics                5. Ground Craft                           =
=20
 6. Tactics                     6. Vac Suit                        =20


*New Skill Intel

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
------

Table of Ranks:                 Skill Eligibility:
See parent service               1 skill per year
                                          1 skill per term for commission
                                         1 skill per term for promotion

Rank and Service Skills         Mustering Out tables:
All Intel-1                              See parent service
Rank O6+ Diplomacy-1

Game effects of a Military Intelligence Career.

Characters may enter Intelligence by making the required roll at any=20
time during any term of their military career, without the negative DM=20
assessed for a second career.  However, for every two years served in=20
Intelligence a -1 DM is imposed on returning to the parent service. =20
This is to reflect subordinates moving up too fill in the gap left by a=20
character's departure, and the fact that a posting may no longer be=20
available.  To return to regular duty, characters must roll vs. Enlistmen=
t=20
on the parent service table, using all applicable DMs.  N.B. Preferential=
=20
Enlistment cannot be used to transfer from Intelligence to Standard Duty.=
 =20
There is either a place for you or there isn't. =20
Characters in Intelligence no longer receive the rank benefits available =
to=20
members of the parent service (e.g., +1 Soc for Naval O5+, SMG-1 for=20
Army O1+) to reflect the fact that their job is no longer the same, nor=20
does it require the same skills.


Part two to follow soon.
Enjoy.

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twai=
n

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 16:18:55 -0800
From: Timothy Collinson <tc@library.solent.ac.uk>
Subject: IRC

"Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com> writes:

>Subject: Traveller on IRC

>Wednesday Night is Traveller Night!  (Ok, Thursday is, but its a US
>holiday, so we're being our usual arrogant selves and holding it a
>day early <g>).

OK, I can't bear it any longer.  Not only I do not have access to IRC but=
=20
even if I did, I doubt I could persuade them to open the building at 2am!

What chance might there be of a kind of TML report from the IRC folk=20
after their session?

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 16:19:49 -0800
From: Timothy Collinson <tc@library.solent.ac.uk>
Subject: Bustard one and two

Please Andy and Michael, keep it up.  I was ROTFL.

tc
"And quite enjoyed the potty psionic thread too!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:21:07 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: The whole Copyright violation thread!

- ->         I'm quite entertained by all this.

I must agree!
I vote this thread for funniest thread on the list ever!
It sure had me bursting out loughing over and over (and sitting in a=20
PC-Pool in University adds an interesting twist to that (What's he=20
laughing about?)).=20
Any seconds on this?


On the other side, i fully agree on the complaints about extensive=20
quoting: Some people have really made quite a habit of this. I would=20
also like people to snip more and quote less! Makes reading the=20
digest much easier and more entertaaining!
V.A.G.      =20
- ------ Volker A. Greimann............Grei5001@uni-trier.de ----
- ------ Gamer, Student of Law, Secret Master, Bane of DOS ----=20

- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!"

FNORD!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:45:41 -0500
From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: RE: re: Deckplan layout

Frontier (Elite II) is a great spaceflight simulator.  The only thing I d=
on't
think is very believable is the way that enemy ships can manuever around =
you=20
during combat.  Other than that the spaceflight is very good.  It even ha=
s a
subjective time control, to allow you to play the game without running it=
 for
days to get from point to point in a star system. =20



- ----------
From: 	Leonard Erickson[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
Sent: 	Saturday, November 23, 1996 11:34 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: re: Deckplan layout

In mail you write:

> Something the original poster
> might want to do is to pick up a copy of Microsoft's Space Simulator.
>
> [we interrupt this post to warn readers that Space Simulator is a typic=
ally
> lousy Microsoft product:
<list of defects deleted>
> So please do not consider this an endorsement.]
>
>         It simulates the maneuvering requirements one encounters in spa=
ce
> rather well.  If you try and fly the ship using the same joystick and
> thrust inputs as you would in a flight sim, you is going to get horribl=
y
> confused and disoriented.  You develop a good understanding of delta-v =
very
> quickly.  Landings, using either the LEM or what they call the ATL, are
> quite fun; you get a sense of the true meaning of the term "gravity wel=
l".
>
>         It also gives you an excellent idea of the sheer scale of space.
> Last summer, I did a bunch of flights with it where I would just set th=
e
> ship thrusting and leave it running in realtime, then leave for work.  =
I'd
> come home, make the neccessary corrections, read or watch some TV, corr=
ect
> again before I went to sleep, and again in the AM, etc...  and this was
> just bopping around the inner Solar System.  Space is big... even when
> compared to running down the street to the chemist's ;).

What I'd love to do is write a *good* space simulator, with
multi-player networking capability. You could do campaigns in "real
time". After all, in most cases you could see ships coming hours or
days in advance. So "scheduling" battles for when folks had the free
time would be workable.=20

Design it to support Traveller-type ship design and then we don't
*need* combat rules. :-)

- --=20
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.961125081536.28350G-100000@cummings.uchicago.=
edu>

<< > Excellent post! Very useful. One comment, though: Given the large si=
ze=20
of the=20
> Imperium, I get the feeling that - unless the Navy is very top-heavy - =
in=20
many=20
> cases you'll see lower ranks given more responsibility. You may see a=20
Cmdr in=20
> charge of an entire system, or a Captain in charge of a subsector fleet=
,=20
> because there's a huge amount of space and only a finite number of=20
officers to=20
> go round.
>=20

Good point!  If the system or area is a true backwater there may only be
enough ships to justify a Captain.  I would guess, though, that the
lightest weight you'd see is a Captain for any area to speak of.  Remembe=
r
that Imperial area commanders may need to face down minor nobles with a
complex on occassion.  If that commander is a pipsqueak Commander or Lt.
Commander, no one will listen to him. >>

I wouldn't exactly call a Commander a pipsqueak - he's probably got at=20
least 10-15 years worth of command experience behind him (and the Royal=20
Navy trusts them enough to give them SSBNs to play with). And the Noble m=
ay=20
*have* to listen to him considering a) he has enough firepower at his=20
disposal to blastthe Noble's homeworld back to TL0, and b) he's the only=20
thing protecting the area from the hordes of pirates/aliens/PCs out there=
.=20
It'll seriously piss off the Noble to have to be nice to such a...peasant=
,=20
but he'll do it if he's smart.

    ---------=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DoooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: [T96#686] House Rules and Ranks

In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.91.961124172357.27785F-100000@statler.cc.wwu.edu=
>

<< One ticklish situation that comes to mind is with the former Soviet=20
navy,=20
where ship commanders were backed up (read:  overseen) by political=20
officers who often also held captain's rank.  As far as I know, the=20
commander of the ship still had seniority, if not higher rank, than the=20
zampolit, but I'm not sure that this was always the case -- I'm just a=20
layperson here, not a subject-matter expert.>>

I would expect the Political Officer to be more of a backup XO.

<<For those of you who didn't know:  The zampolit's function was to=20
ensure=20
that the ship commander's decisions were 'politically correct.'  The=20
parallel command structure was developed to insure that military units=20
always acted in the best interests of the Communist Party of the Soviet=20
Union.  With all of the different, wacky political and military entities=20
possible in the Traveller universe, such a parallel command structure=20
could be present in a different form with different names. >>

The Solomani undoubtedly have them.

    ---------=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DoooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Bad Taste?

In-Reply-To: <544712251196*/G=3DMichael/S=3DBarry/O=3DFINANCE/PRMD=3DAUSG=
OVFINANCE/ADMD=3DTELEMEMO/C=3DAU@MHS>

>      Anybody with an interest in geneered critters should check out _Me=
et=20
>      the Feebles_ by the same guys that brought us _Bad Taste_.=20

Yes indeedy...Muppets on Acid! And we mustn't forget _Braindead_, which=20
makes _Bad Taste_ look pretty tame...

    ---------=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DoooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Deckplan layout

In-Reply-To: <961125020517_1784075259@emout12.mail.aol.com>

<< > The distances in space combat mean it would be useless to fight=20
>  "visually" as you can't even *see* the enemy.

Which leads me to something I have long wondered about: at what distance =
in
space are ships, stations, etc., visible to the naked eye?  I realize thi=
s
will never come up in combat, but, say you are trying to dock at a=20
highport.
 When can you actually look out the window and see it?  Anyone have any=20
idea? >>
=20
A few km, probably. Depends on the size of the thing, and how obvious=20
they're being (stations and traders are probably brightly coloured, with=20
bright navigation lights; military ships will be dark coloured; HEPLAR=20
drives will be brighter than thrusters).

    ---------=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DoooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: House Rules: Active Duty

In-Reply-To: <961125020526_637969403@emout18.mail.aol.com>

<< > I get the feeling that - unless the Navy is very top-heavy - in many=
=20
>  cases you'll see lower ranks given more responsibility. You may see a =
Cmdr
> in charge of an entire system, or a Captain in charge of a subsector fl=
eet,
>  because there's a huge amount of space and only a finite number of
officers=20
> to go round.

Well, OK.  There aren't many modern day (or Imperial British Navy) parall=
els
to Known Space in terms of scope, so this, IMHO, becomes a matter of opin=
ion.
 So, without further ado, IMHO, I don't think so.  Maybe a Commander (eve=
n a
Lt. Cmdr.) would be given command of a small or less strategically import=
ant
system, but, fleets would probably be given to nothing less than a Commod=
ore
(or Rear Admiral Lower Half, as the esteemed Jeff Zeitlin informs us.)  T=
his
would tend to make the Navy a little bloated in it's higher ranks, but,
promotions don't come all that often, don't you know (only once per term.=
)
 Further, I imagine a subsector being (very) roughly equivalent to a thea=
ter
of operations in WWII, and, so far as I know, nothing less than an Admira=
l
(in any variety of flavors) was given charge of a theater.  Also, I'm not
sure that a Marine or Army General might not have command of military
operations in some subsectors, at least in times of war.   >>

I wasn't considering the other services. I agree that they could be used =
in=20
some cases, but the point is that the Navy is the most important - if you=
=20
control space, you control trade and the worlds themselves, and there's=20
bugger all the ground-pounders can do to stop you.

I do have a bit of canon to support my view - it's stated that when the R=
ule=20
of Man began, fairly junior Terran officers were put in charge of huge ar=
eas;=20
I assume that in a rapidly-expanding Imperium, a similar situation would=20
occur.

    ---------=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DoooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:44:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Anstett Jr <a039689t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Subject: Re: House Rule: Miltary Intelligence Pt. 1 (Long)

I liked what I saw, but I didn't get all of it. Don't know why but only=20
part of part I showed up, and no part II. I think it's something at my=20
end. If you could, please E-mail teh text file to me.=20
      Thanks,
          BOB



Robert Anstett Jr
a039689t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:07:11 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Command Ranks

Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
>=20
>      In our Navy, a patrol boat is commanded by a LTCOMD. This is close
>      enough to a SDB in size/function for my purposes.

Modeling our image of a Trav system-defense fleet on a navy like that of =
the Australians=20
is a fascinating idea. Out of curiosity, and to put this in prespective w=
ith respect to=20
my USN background and, yes, biases, I have some questions:=20

1. What is the largest/most powerful ship in the AN these days? Last I lo=
oked (late=20
70s), it was a cruiser. How many of these are in the inventory?

2. Roughly how many of these missile boats are in the inventory?

3. I assume that these Aussie Navy patrol boats are armed with Exocets, H=
arpoons or=20
equivalent over-the-horizon fire-and-forget missiles and small AA guns. H=
owever, missile=20
baots vary wildly in size from the smallish Soviet _Osa_ (4 "Styx" missil=
es, small=20
autocannon) to pocket frigates. Where on this spectrum do the Aussie boat=
s lie?=20

Any information is appreciated ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:12:48 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Political Officers

Eris Reddoch wrote:
>=20
>
>=20
> At least!
>=20
> Actually, the Zampolit was the *visible* representation of the Party.  =
What
> you'd really want to watch out for would be the
> *invisible*...uh, moles. <g>

Three words and an acronym: "Third Chief Directorate, KGB." Usually not o=
vertly=20
political or even ranked as "officers" in their service, the agents of th=
is Directorate=20
would pose as junior EMs in ground and fleet units to ferret out subtle a=
nti-Soviet=20
subversion by observing and reporting.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:31:24 -0800
From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: common language?

K.C. Komosky wrote:

<deletia>
>=20
> BTW, while normally we Canucks prefer the term North American to Americ=
an
> (don't like being lumped in with those yankees, eh),

Can't say I blame you, KC. Ever have someone in the Great White North sta=
rt a "US Out Of=20
North America" petition drive? I saw that phrase on a bumper sticker in t=
he San=20
Francisco Bay Area.

> in the case of
> sitcoms, feel free to call them American. Let the US take the well-dese=
rved
> blame for those.

The utter shame of my nation is that it exports its cultural garbage -- s=
ticoms! I don't=20
watch teevee anymore; I literally can't bear to watch sitcoms anymore.

Ob Traveller:=20

Cultural Imperialism in M0 -- In my game, the two poles of power in the I=
mperium are=20
Ordun and Sylea. There are definite cultural differences between them, de=
spite their=20
proximity to one another. Sylea is what an American might call "old world=
" -- elegant,=20
established, and relatively _safe_ -- guns are outlawed and only the nobi=
lity goes=20
around armed with so much as blades. Culture is likewise oriented towards=
 classicism=20
there. Ordun is much more like the US: less worried about history and mor=
e concerned=20
with "What have you done for me lately?" The popular culture is the US-st=
yle fast food=20
type -- sitcoms, bubblegum music and so forth -- that your average Sylean=
 looks down his=20
long nose at. Ordun looks dangerous to a Sylean -- Law Level 2; most fire=
arms are legal.=20
Ordunnian culture is making inroads into Sylea, but they are yet small an=
d confined to=20
the social fringe. =20

>=20
> (and as for the very few Canadian sitcoms, I think we as a country woul=
d
> rather disown them as well).

Having never seen a Canadian sitcom, and I've laughed like hell over Brit=
ish ones, I'll=20
reserve judgement until I see one. Good plan, eh? :)

Rich Ostorero
Sitting in semi-sunny Lodi, California
stormhvn@inreach.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:34:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Claris Draw Starship library

Someone, a while back, mentioned that he had a set of Claris Draw
library(ies) for doing starship layouts.  Like the fool I am, I managed t=
o
delete that digest...could whoever did post it let me know where I could
get them?


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:38:09 -0800
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: Anyone Seen Roger Sanger

Hello=20

I've been Trying to contact Roger Sanger.  Since I've not recieved a repl=
y
to my many messages I was wondering If anyone knows how I could contact h=
im.
Or were he is.

||||
O  O
 (    Brad Urwiller
 __   ravyn@ptw.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:11:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#691] World Building/NH3-H2O

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes...

T::>Doesn't work that way. The *mixture* has a freezing/boiling point tha=
t
 ::>varies widely with concentration. Phase diagrams of water/ammonia
 ::>mixtures are really weird. "Star Light" made good use of the
 ::>weirdnesses that result.

 As did "Rocheworld" by Robert Forward (yes, that Robert
 Forward, if I remember correctly).  He also provided very
 detailed visual descriptions.  A good read; recommended.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.co=
m
- ---
 =FE OLXWin 1.00b =FE It's always darkest right before you step on the ca=
t!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #698
**********************************

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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 27 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 699



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [T96#695] Copyright BS
Re: [T96#694] Psionics and Trademarks
Re: [T96#692] Command Structures and Zampolits
Re: More Broken Economics
Re, MT weapons & equipment for T4
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #698
Re: Claris Draw Starship library
Re: [T96#695] Copyright BS
Re: Deckplan Layout
NAH
senior subordinates 
Chirpers as food
Roger Sanger
"WINMAIL.DAT" Blues
RE: More Broken Economics
Re: common language?
Re: World building (Hydrogen)
MegaTraveller Auction #3
Re: Re, MT weapons & equipment for T4
House Rule: Military Intel (Part 2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:11:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#695] Copyright BS

T::>Seldom do I forward emails in their entirey, but the following
 ::>arrived in my jmail, and I'd thought I'd sent it to the list, so
 ::>I've sent the whole lot.  to put it in context, I think this bloke is
 ::>refering to my web pages at http://www.maths.tcd.ie/pub/travaid.
 ::>My questions are:

 Now where have I seen this before?  Oh yes, Stewart just posted
 the same message to the list - except that "A Friend" was
 talking about psionics in this case.

 Also, Jo, how come your questions are nearly word-for-word
 identical with Stewart's?

 Now, in this case, there _might_ have been a case at one time,
 because I do know that there was a real Traveller's Aid Society
 (and may still be) up in the Boston area.  However, there's a
 lot of years involved, and formica is generic (see several
 other posts in this thread collection).

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  How could Brigham Young be against sex?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:11:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#694] Psionics and Trademarks

T::>Don't know the specifics of the copyright, but if its under trade and
 ::>service, they probably would effect overseas.  The questions are:
 ::>1) Did they copyright the word Psionic & Psion or General Psionic
 ::>Church
 ::>2) When did they copyright

 Under US law, which is closely parallel to international law on
 this issue, my layman's reading is that he doesn't have a leg
 to stand on.

 (1) His usage of the term, regardless of how old it is, is not
 the same as has been used throughout science fiction for untold
 years.  Microsoft cannot prevent you from using the word
 "Windows" to refer to a collection of openings in your walls.

 (2) It's been lots of years, lots of books, lots of games.  A
 "Saltine" was originally a salted zwieback cracker from
 Nabisco. That doesn't stop a heck of a lot of companies from
 selling saltines with that name - and Nabisco, having done
 nothing for many years, now does nothing because they cannot.
 Ditto aspirin, a trade name for acetylsalicilic acid in tablet
 form.  Ditto formica, a trade name for an easy-to-clean
 laminate covering for counters.  Almost ditto Xerox and Kleenex
 - but those companies fought in time.

 My advice:  Let him buy a lawyer before you even consider
 dropping references to psionics in your Traveller-related web
 pages.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case, Hmmm.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:11:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T96#692] Command Structures and Zampolits

Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu> hath scriven...

T::>One ticklish situation that comes to mind is with the former Soviet navy,
 ::>where ship commanders were backed up (read:  overseen) by political
 ::>officers who often also held captain's rank.  As far as I know, the
 ::>commander of the ship still had seniority, if not higher rank, than the
 ::>zampolit, but I'm not sure that this was always the case -- I'm just a
 ::>layperson here, not a subject-matter expert.

 Umm, not exactly, as I understand it.  The zampolit did not
 necessarily have rank or seniority in the traditional sense,
 but he was _never_ of _lower_ rank than the military CO.  They
 had different reporting chains, and the zampolit, by virtue of
 his "more important" chain of command, overrule the military
 CO.  The zampolit was also responsible for "morale
 conditioning" aboard ship.  You can get a very good feel for
 this in Clancy's "The Hunt for Red October".

 ::>                                                            I'd like to
 ::>think, however, were I a captain under such circumstances, that I'd be able
 ::>to find safe, deniable methods for wearing out my political officers quickly.

 Nope. That's one of the things that they look for in appointing
 them.  If you push them too far, and they get fed up, they just
 need five words: "You're relieved.  I'm in command." or their
 local semantic equivalent, and you are relieved.  Or else you
 had better be _very_ senior, and _very_ good at what you do.
 Or else have a good plan, like Capt. Ramius did in "Red
 October".

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  A person slow to anger is better than the mighty.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:11:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: More Broken Economics

M::>More Broken Economics

M::>To maintain an ordinary diet and living quarters a citizen of the
 ::>TRAVELLER UNIVERSE requires CR14 per day or CR5,110 per year. If we
 ::>imagine that is 25% of the citizen's annual income we arrive at
 ::>CR20,440.

 This sounds reasonable, given the generally accepted conversion
 of UK1=Cr1 or US$2=Cr1.  But how did you arrive at 25%?

M::>Now let us look at the starship pilot. A pilot with a skill of 3 must be
 ::>paid CR7,200 per month or CR86,400 per year. At that salary the pilot
 ::>has no expenses for room and board while aboard ship. So the pilot makes
 ::>almost 8 times the amount required to maintain a high level diet and
 ::>living quarters and almost twice the annual salary of our citizen living
 ::>at high level.

M::>Is this in line with what you would expect a pilot to make?

 Why not?  The extra cash is to compensate for the drawbacks -
 as an example, take an airline pilot who does international
 runs: If he is on a long-distance run, such as New York/JFK to
 Tokyo/Narita, aviation regulations and union contracts have
 basically forced him into maintaining two pieds--terre, one at
 each end of the run.

 Also, the cost of living at one end may be higher than
 "standard", plus he may have extraordinary expenses to maintain
 himself properly for the job (for example, uniforms are
 generally more expensive than non-uniform clothing that may
 look nearly indistinguishable.  As an example, I can get, in an
 ordinary clothing store, a pair of dark blue slacks, a pair of
 black shoes, a pair of black socks, and a white "military" cut
 shirt, for about $100-$150.  A police lieutenant from my
 department must purchase his uniforms from an authorized
 source, which will charge him about $300 for the "same" thing.
 Then, on top of that, he must purchase the insignia and sew
 them on himself.).

 Also, while aboard a ship in transit, he must be considered to
 be on duty 24hrs per day - which means that unless he gets
 _long_ layovers, he's probably racking up overtime.

 That's for the pilot on a regular run.  If he's on a "tramp",
 then he _has_ no real home - so there's got to be an inducement
 for him to give up the comforts of planetary life.  Cash
 generally works pretty well.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  System One RPG:  Realism & Simplicity at their best!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:12:12 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re, MT weapons & equipment for T4

At 09:35 AM 11/26/96 +0100, darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr wrote:
>
> One thing that amazed me when I purchased MT was the huge diversity of
>equipment and weapons available to the players. I must say my players
>appreciated that very much (too much? :) too. T4 is not that exhaustive.
>It is easy to use the equipment from the Imperial Encyclopedia in T4,
>but the weapons' stats have to be adapted. Has anyone done that yet? If
>so, I am interested! If not, I'm about to do the conversion. So if anyone
>else is interested...
Well, 

There is a way but it is not very convenient. I use "Guns, Guns, Guns" from
BTRC to design weapons, it gives conversions for T4/MT/TNE(TW2000). You
would have to reverse engineer the MT weapons to arrive at a GGG Damage
Value once you have that you can convert to what ever you want. 

By the way BTRC has a new version available with T4 conversions included,
BTRC also has a Excel spreadsheet already made for use with "Guns, Guns,
Guns", and there is also a PDF version that can be downloaded for $$$.

I do not yet have the new version of GGG but will have it soon.

I find it easier to just design new weapons for T4.

Here is an example weapon for T4

Tech Level 15 10mm Autopistol using binary propellants

Lenght   Weight in Kg          Costs                         Magazine
In Cm    Empty  Loaded  Ammo   Weapon  Mag   Damage  Range   Capacity
 29       0.5    1.2     0.7    1237    11    4      Short    40

Tech Level 12 10mm Autopistol using binary propellants

Lenght   Weight in Kg          Costs                         Magazine
In Cm    Empty  Loaded  Ammo   Weapon  Mag   Damage  Range   Capacity
 32       1.1    1.8    0.7     1178    10    3      Short    40     

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net
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------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1996 23:45:24 GMT
From: ajpursell@babylon.montreal.qc.ca (Alan Pursell)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #698

Hey there,

gone south to get some sun and recover from the snow that just keeps on
coming... back next tuesday. 

see ya...

alan j

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:23:43 -0500
From: BrianMays@aol.com
Subject: Re: Claris Draw Starship library

In a message dated 96-11-26 16:40:16 EST, you write:

<< could whoever did post it let me know where I could
 get them? >>

ME TOO!  ME TOO!

<ahem>

I mean, I would also like to know whereto get them.  Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:26:41 -0500
From: BrianMays@aol.com
Subject: Re: [T96#695] Copyright BS

In a message dated 96-11-26 18:19:21 EST, you write:

<< I do know that there was a real Traveller's Aid Society
  (and may still be) up in the Boston area. >>

FYI, the real-life Traveller's Aid Society (at least in the Bay Area) has
changed its name to "Compass Community Services."

Anyone know if this is the case nation-wide?

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 96 22:12:10 EST
From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Layout

A question was asked as to what range you could look out the window and see a
space station or another ship. I've had a fair amount of experience trying to do
just that from the ground and can provide some details if anyone's interested. 

There is a difference between detecting an object and resolving it. Many people
have seen the shuttle or MIR passing overhead at twilight. Their ranges are on
the order of a few hundred kilometers. If the target has flashing lights like
aircraft strobes, it can also be seen at a few hundred kilometers naked eye when
it is in the dark 

Under special conditions, the naked eye detection ranges can be much greater.
Glints from the solar cell panels a few square meters in size on geosynchronous
satellites 40,000 some kilometers away, for example, can be naked eye visible
under the right conditions (3rd magnitude or brighter if you're into astronomy).
The real trick in detecting objects at these ranges is knowing where to look.
There are several web pages that provide information on observing satellites if
you're interested in trying.

Being able to pick out any structure with the naked eye would require shorter
ranges or some optics. The shuttle and Mir are visible as moving points of light
to the naked eye, but a moderate (50 cm) aperture telescope can resolve some
structure. Larger telescopes can pick out quite a bit of detail, even through
the atmosphere. Something like the Star Trek "magnify" command for a viewscreen
tied to external telescopes on a starship (especially with some advanced optical
processing) should allow "visual" operations at ranges of at least five hundred
kilometers as long as the target is sunlit. Low power lasers could allow
operations in the dark, but might be misunderstood. Even with our current
technology, some information on gross size and shape can be obtained at greater
ranges.

Without optical assistance, I agree the ranges to be able to see any structure
on a large object would be on the order of a few kilometers. You can only
recognize the largest objects looking down from an airliner at around 30,000
feet altitude.

Later, John Lambert

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:34:07 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: NAH

Sorry about the lack of action from me on this; Reality hit me upside the
head last month and I've been busy cleaning things up. I'd hoped to get back
in the full swing right after Thanksgiving, but now it looks like it may be
even longer before I can do anything or even muster any interest. My dad's
in the hospital with cancer of the neck, chest and lungs, and it doesn't
look good. I've told Don Perrin I'm going to be unavailable any time soon,
and suggested he consider finding another focal point. While I'm still
interested in working on this, it may be a while before I can. I'd
appreciate your prayers in the meanwhile; thanks. Meanwhile, I'm
unsubscribing from everything to keep my mailbox down.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:12:36 GMT
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: senior subordinates 

Hi there

For an idea of the problems caused when a junior officer has high
social rank, take a look at Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series.
Miles Vorkosigan is an Ensign and then a Lieutenant in the Imperial
Armed Services, but at the same time the son of the Prime Minister
(who is also Count Vorkosigan, and the former Imperial Regent) and
about 3rd in line to the Imperial Throne (by one argument).  His
training officers at the Imperial Academy perceive a bit of a
subordination problem in Miles - ie. that he only understands the
concept as applied to other people.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:22:05 GMT
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Chirpers as food

        I am considering the possibility that a TL 7 world whose population
lives in undergorund tunnels survived the first years after the collapse
through radical measures: destruction of all computers (not a catastrophic
event at TL 7), and...
        This world has an important population of chirpers (around 1 per 2
humans). So, the question: Are chirpers edible? Could the humans substitute
imported food by Chirper herding?
        And, in case anyone is wondering... yes, it is a Geonee world.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 05:14:34 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Roger Sanger

Greetings:

I'm looking for Roger as well. He cashed a check of mine and I haven't 
seen a nice package darken my door yet...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.net)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 05:15:10 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: "WINMAIL.DAT" Blues

Greetings:

What's really amazing about these "WINMAIL.DAT" attachments is that they 
act like a virus on my mailer. They delete the message they are included 
in from the point of inclusion onnwards. So I have to hunt the archives 
for a new copy, cutting and pasting to see what I missed. This takes 
time, plus the time to download the original message as mail and the time 
to find out that it's been fragged. Now, I'm a nice guy but WILL THE 
PERSON RESPONSIBLE CALL MICROSOFT'S CUSTOMER SERVICE NUMBER AND LEARN HOW 
TO TURN THIS FEATURE OFF!

Thank you.

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.net)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:35:31 -0800
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: RE: More Broken Economics

M::>To maintain an ordinary diet and living quarters a citizen of the
 ::>TRAVELLER UNIVERSE requires CR14 per day or CR5,110 per year. If we
 ::>imagine that is 25% of the citizen's annual income we arrive at
 ::>CR20,440.

 This sounds reasonable, given the generally accepted conversion
 of UK=A31=3DCr1 or US$2=3DCr1.  But how did you arrive at 25%?


I saw a figure of 1986 data stating that in Canada the median percentage =
of income toward food was 11% and put that together with the knowledge =
that in Seattle folks can qualify for housing assistance if they are =
spending more than 50% of their income on housing then figured that if =
your not single you better be making enough to feed the kid(s) too.

I've got a detailed income vs. social level chart that I use in my game =
and checked it against the T4 standard of living stuff. My charts work =
out to SS1 just at starvation, SS2&3 at subsistence, SS4-7 at ordinary, =
SS>7 at high level. But I play with the charts depending on local =
economy and politics.

BTW, thanks for your argument about why the pilot should make so much. =
It works for me.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:36:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: common language?

In mail you write:

>>Seeing as we are on the topic (er .... donkeys?) I'd like to point
>>out a word that is beginning to become quite common in some North
>>American sitcoms.
>>It's the word fanny. I can't help but blush when I here it used.
>>"Get your butt over here." I can quite handle, it means the same
>>'down under' as it does "up over", but if you say to an Aussie
>>"Get your fanny over here!"... uhhm....weelll....hmmm.
>
> I don't get is
>
> Well, don't hold us in suspense! What does it mean, or imply, in Oz?

"Fanny" in Britain (and apparently Australia as well) refers to the
female genitalia.

Thus "sitting on your fanny" conjures up a *very* strange image.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:54:42 GMT
From: Neil Taylor <neil@uk.gdscorp.com>
Subject: Re: World building (Hydrogen)

Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com> writes
Subject: Re: World building (Hydrogen)

Neil Taylor says:

> > the interesting question about hydrogen and large planets is the 
> > extra-solar planets detected,all of which (so far) are huge (Jupiter 
> > ++) - but several orbit thier suns well inside the orbit of Mercury 
> > (equivalent). 
> > These planets may still be large enough to trap hydrogen, but be
> > glowing hot with it - or
> > they may be enourmous rockballs like a mega-Mercury.
> 
> You can make a ballpark estimate of a world's surface temperature (TNE
> World Tamer's guide, if nothing better) given an orbit distance and
> the star's spectral classification.
> If the most probable velocity is greater than escape velocity, then
> the gas will certainly escape.  Even if the gas has a lower escape
> velocity, there is some tendency for it to "evaporate". 
> Definitely the first and probably the second rule should give the minimum
> size a world needs to be to retain a given gas (regardless when or how it
> got it in the first place)

The escape velocity tets is correct (give or take the math - I didn't
check it) but applies in two stages:

1) when the rocky core of the planet forms, and the gas
condenses. This is one the astronomers thought they were confident
about, but it now seems large cores can form fast enough to bind
hydrogen while the star-cloud is still condensing and not properly
heating the forming planets;

2) after formation (and binding gas), when the dust and unbound gas
has been stripped away and the star is shining properly. The planets
we're talking about will then have a ferocious temperature, but also,
due to their immense size, a huge escape velocity.

We have to remember that the mass of the accumulated gas can itself be
enough to bind hydrogen at the later, high temperature, even if the
rocky core alone cannot bind the gas at the high temp.


The interesting point for Trav is that these Giant planets exist at all...
The rules all place Jovian type planets out in the equivalent zone to
our system's gas giants.... but the first sample of foreign stars we
observe doesn't place them there.
Given the small sample tested so far, we must conclude that hot
supergiant planets are in fact quite common (or we'd not have spotted
them in our sample.) OK - the sampling method is biassed 'cos it only
detects huge lumps close to stars - but they found so many to imply
lots more.

This does mean that we are much more likely to find gas-giants in the
"habitable zone" than previously figured... Whether they will have as
many moons if they form in close to a star I don't know...


- --------------------------------------------------+
- -- Neil Taylor              neil@uk.gdscorp.com --|
- -- Graphic Data Systems Ltd,                    --| 
- -- Wellington House, East Rd, Cambridge CB1 1BH --|
- --------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:57:34 GMT
From: sdollar@goodnet.com (Stuart L. Dollar)
Subject: MegaTraveller Auction #3

Hey gang!  I have the following Traveller/MegaTraveller books
available:

I have the following items available for auction.
(Condition:  5-Mint to 1-Poor)

GDW:
MegaTraveller:  Astrogators' Guide to the Diaspora Sector
Sector Map, UWP stats (MT & Hard Times Era) for Diaspora Sector
Condition: 3  (Wear on Spine) 
Minimum Bid: $3

MegaTraveller:  Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
Condition: 4  (Slight Wear on Spine)
Current high bids:
$10 hbill@primenet.com
$8 lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz

MegaTraveller: Referee's Companion
Condition: 3 (Slight Wear on Spine, Bend on Front Cover) 
Minimum Bid: $8

MegaTraveller: Rebellion Sourcebook
Condition: 4 (Slight Wear on Spine)
$12 hbill@primenet.com

DGP:
Travellers' Digest #19:
Contains 2 Adventures, UWP Stats, Library Data & Sector Maps for Deneb
& Riftspan Reaches Sectors
Condition: 4 (Some Wear on Cover)
$4 truestar@pipeline.com

The following are the auction rules:

1) Open bids will be accepted until Midnight MST on Saturday December
7, 1996.  

2)  Two (2) highest bidders as of above deadline will be contacted
individually on Sunday December 8th, and asked to submit a final bid.
They will have until December 10, 1996 Midnight (Tuesday) to submit
this final bid.

3)  Bids will be accepted in minimum increments of $1.  Please note
minimum bids being taken for all items.  Bids of $XX more than highest
bidder will be accepted only during the open bidding period, and will
only be effective for the current day's bidding.

4) Auction updates will be posted daily.

5) All costs do not include freight.

6)  IMPORTANT:  Save bandwidth, please send all bids by e-mail to:
sdollar@goodnet.com.

Stu

Stuart L. Dollar                         sdollar@goodnet.com
Official USENet Spokesperson for Imperium Games
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."  -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:01:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Re, MT weapons & equipment for T4

At 09:35 AM 11/26/96 +0100, darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr wrote:
>
> One thing that amazed me when I purchased MT was the huge diversity of
>equipment and weapons available to the players. I must say my players
>appreciated that very much (too much? :) too. T4 is not that exhaustive.
>It is easy to use the equipment from the Imperial Encyclopedia in T4,
>but the weapons' stats have to be adapted. Has anyone done that yet? If
>so, I am interested! If not, I'm about to do the conversion. So if anyone
>else is interested...

In MT, weapons have a penetration value which is identical (I believe)
to that used by Striker. A while back, I posted a conversion table
between Striker (or MT) penetration and T4 damage. Here it is again. I hope
it helps.

Striker (MT) penetration	T4 Armor or Damage
1				4
2				5
3				5
4				6
5				6
6				7
7				7
8				8
9				8
10				8
11				8
12				9
13				9
14				9
15				9
16				10
17				10
18				10
19				11
20				11
21				11
22				12
23				12
24				12
25				13
26				13
27				13
28				14
29				14
30				14
31				15
32				15
33				16
34				16
35				17
36				17
37				18
38				18
39				19
40				19

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:29:45 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: House Rule: Military Intel (Part 2)

As promised, here is Part 2 of the Military Intel Career.  

The following has grown from my original House Rule:Military Intelligence
Career.  As it has developed far beyond my original idea, I will post it in
two parts.  The first post covered the career itself along with associated
tables similar to those in the T4 rulebook.  The second post  details the new
Intel skill, Intelligence teams, and various and sundry rules additions. I
will be happy to e-mail the complete .txt file of this document to anyone who
is interested.  E-mail me privately with a request.

This article was written by Tim Peter with significant development ideas
provided by Michael Barry, Jeff Kazmierski, Rich Ostorero, and Tim Reynolds.
The Intel skill was created by Michael Barry and developed further by Tim
Peter.  All copyrights belong to their respective holders, and this article
is in no way an attempt to infringe on the copyrights of FarFuture
Enterprises, Imperium Games, Authority Publishing, Digest Group Publications,
Paranoia Press, the aforementioned authors, or anyone with a really good
lawyer and an axe to grind.  Hopefully, that covers that.

New Skill Definition 

Intel (Default)      Int 
[Designed by Michael Barry, additional development by Tim Peter]
This skill is used to collate diverse datum to produce an analysis of a
subject's disposition and behavior, and permits prediction of future activity
based on said analysis.  For Intel to be used data must be available to the
analyst (must already have been gathered) and the analyst must have skills
related to information being analysed.  For example, if the character wishes
to analyze fleet movements along the border and predict the most likely time
and place of an enemy attack, the PC must possess both Intel and Tactics.
 The character would roll against each skill independently, with outcomes
determined as follows:
     
     Success vs. Tactics, Failure vs. Intel = Proper data interpretation,
        incorrect prediction of likely course of action.
     Failure vs. Tactics, Success vs. Intel = Poor data interpretation,
          good prediction based on flawed assumptions. (see Bay of Pigs)
     Success vs. Tactics, Critical Failure Vs. Intel = Proper data
               interpretation, disastrous tactical decision.

Bear in mind all Intel tasks are Uncertain tasks, as data may be out of date,
or incorrectly gathered (e.g., faulty sensor logs.)  Assume Spectacular
success against Intel allows PC to recognize likely validity of data.  

Other skills Intel may be paired with include(but are not limited to):
 Intel + Recon - analysis of close recon and tracking data 
 Intel + Criminology - analysis of criminal activity
 Intel + Computer + Tactics - to create a computer model that simulates 
  enemy behavior in a given tactical situation. 

Difficulty levels are as follows:

     Basic information about adversary (eg typical weaponry, equipment, 
     racial characteristics): 2D 
     Detailed information about adversary: (common tactical responses to 
     combat situations): 3D 
     Close analysis of adversary dispositions: (likely positions of enemy 
     based on partial data) 3.5D
     Deep analysis of adversary: (analysis of commander's objectives and 
     means used to achieve those objectives): 4D

Difficulty modifiers may include the amount of data available, how recently
the data was collected, and how many people are helping in the analysis.  For
multiple analysts to review the data at least one must have the Leadership
skill (Project Lead), and each analyst must possess the skill appropriate to
the data being analysed.  The team receives a +1 DM per person added to the
target number of the most qualified analyst on the team, up to the Leadership
level of the Project Lead.  All members of the team must possess the Intel
skill.  Data is often time sensitive, so referees should assess a -1 DM per
time period, where appropriate.  

That's it.  Hope you folks enjoyed it.  Now go play.


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #699
**********************************

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